Toriel's Patience (end)

[Taly]

to anyone who townreads me i need help in this game omg

[Taly]

really dont want to oversell that this is a competent plist and its showing but i am doing that i feel

and i am unsure where i should rethink my perceptions

[Meuh]

Gut from pages 1-4 is Dann town (though I think I remember seeing that's someone consensus?)

I think sakura is already (widely?) townread but this cements it pretty hard for me sort of in the vein of the philosophy that I think Shirou mentioned earlier of trying to read people off a few key posts, which I think I kind of agree with or at least am interested in thinking about as a philosophy of forum mafia.

Anyone else find this scummy? Implo invoking how much a player is already being townread/thread consensus on an issue when posting his take on it is kind of off to me. It's not really a consideration I have when posting reads as town. It comes more from scum thinking about the optics and the ramifications of their read than a townie just dropping some thoughts.

[Sakura Hana]

wait that was a decent post from

meuh

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

to anyone who townreads me i need help in this game omg

Welcome to my world

[Meuh]

Yeah I'm looking at Implo's ISO and there's nothing town indicative there!
The more substantial reads are townreads that are just really easy to make from an informed perspective. I don't think any of said townreads are pushing boundaries to an extent where I think Implo is particularly trying to sort people
The scumreads are just kind of boring and weak? Implo has little actual insight on it, I think the most substantial scum argument so far is the one against me which is super weak
There's just nothing there that actually indicates Implo thinking about the game like a townie

[Meuh]

I get why Implo would get a day 1 pass and I would usually advocate for it (stuff like EV is generally useful and he's posting in a way that feels helpful) but nothing he's said is actually town indicative and we're starving for scumreads... I think that's the exact kind of slot we need to reconsider in this type of situation

[Taly]

I see your point but can you breakdown why some of these townreads are fakeable?

[Sakura Hana]

You know, thinking about it:

VOTE: Implosion
Let's nudge here, why don't we?

VOTE: implosion

????

You know what, i'm not gonna ask anymore, i'm just gonna hope someone that's good at the game gives me some guidance while I figure out where my head is at.

I think this reaction would be kind of incredible to fake as scum. Like, I've been vaguely lurking and beeboy has been talking about thinking their wagon was scum driven and so i feel like replying to beeboy jumping on me with a ???? after beeboy just listed me near the bottom of their reads list the previous page is just like, something scum who care sharply about how they're perceived would never do. I think sakura is already (widely?) townread but this cements it pretty hard for me sort of in the vein of the philosophy that I think Shirou mentioned earlier of trying to read people off a few key posts, which I think I kind of agree with or at least am interested in thinking about as a philosophy of forum mafia.

Isn't this kinda the same reason people mentioned about this being my towngame a long time ago but in a lot more words?:

I think the main thread roleplaying was even funnier at some points though

but maybe that's just me

p-edit: Sakura...townie?

she's got a lot of idc energy

[Sakura Hana]

I get why Implo would get a day 1 pass and I would usually advocate for it (stuff like EV is generally useful and he's posting in a way that feels helpful) but nothing he's said is actually town indicative and we're starving for scumreads... I think that's the exact kind of slot we need to reconsider in this type of situation

Speaking of this.
Do you think implo would have a reason to post the EV stuff as scum.

[Taly]

Ari

is it a misstep to assume

Ali

is scum based on a lack of commitment to the game?

[Sakura Hana]

Like that's the one thing on my head, i dont think at the time (although i cant remember havent double checked) anyone was specially suspecting implo, and as scum he could've stayed silent about the EVs and go with whatever better strategy for his scumteam would be.
Or am i just looking too much into something that's NAI.

[Taly]

Meuh

how do you feel about 1236? And

Merlyn

as a whole by extension?

[Meuh]

Gut from pages 1-4 is Dann town (though I think I remember seeing that's someone consensus?), Mandate town (...) I thought Mandate's opening was slightly +town even from someone who is clearly gimmicking and I like the timing of the Taly vote on page 4 quite a lot. Dann is townish just for voting like 8 times in 4 pages.

149 is actually an interesting post and probably true of me bc I probably would have explained things in the scum PT at some point, alas. Probably +town (maybe strongly) for Brown Eyes to point out an observation like that, it's an observation that could easily just never be made by anyone. Dunn calling Brown Eyes town shortly after this is slightly good for Dunn (who I don't really have much of a read on at this point).

Mandate town is easy to say, Implo just proceeds to point out bad posts
It's a read I agree with but also like, naturally easy to fake
Dann read is, as Implo himself pointed out, what a lot of other people were already thinking, easily fakeable.
The Brown Eyes townread is probably the best read Implo has, but 1. I think it's something he could still notice and then comment on, and 2. it's a read based off of a singular post. I think this comes back around later with the Sakura read and it's interesting the way that Implo is laser focusing on a single post, I think it makes it easier for him to argue a scumread but also feels less townie because well, there's a whole bunch of other posts to consider! This is something that comes back a few times, the specificity of the reads. It's always specific things being pointed out and being the reasoning for reads, which seems to me to come more from scum trying to make sure their reads are understood to be about a thing in particular. Scum really hate it when their ideas aren't clear, but townies are much more likely to make broad statement about other people's posting and the general vibes from said posting. But for Implo it's almost always one post or another, never a player's general direction.

221 is a pretty good point (on Keyleth being town) and probably +town a bit for Sakura. To elaborate a bit since it came into question why I think it's +town for Keyleth, the post is just very frank about what it's trying to do. I think scum on average will tend to shy away from a post that's like "hey, we already have me + x as town, who are the other two" particularly in the context of Keyleth having some heat on her. It's not a slam dunk or anything, but I think it's very easy to glance at that post and briefly *think* it's a slam dunk before you've thought it through intensely, hence Sakura is slightly townish for it (but only slightly and this paragraph is already way too long)

This is like, fine, but also something Implo can just say about a town Sakura. I guess the point about it being surface-level scummy but actually town indicative is cool, but it's also the exact angle Implo would be able to argue from with the knowledge that Sakura is town and the thread otherwise disliking that post from her.

i can see 449 being townish, 378 is kind of eh though.

ARE YOU STILL GLAZING OVER THEM

yes

Meh

Somewhat inclined to trust Ari on Sakura.

explain the mandate tr plz

wasn't to me but mandate is extremely town in my eyes.

They have all the right stances at all the right times. The way they're thinking about the game feels right, I liked their opening, I liked the evolution of their taly+keyleth team read, I like the evolution of their stances in general, like, the townread on sakura a page or two ago is good for example

This read is less specific ("the way they're thinking about the game", "evolution of stances"), though I think Implo going out of his way to explain why a widely townread player is town isn't the best look?

i think dannflor's first 10 or however many pages were really town, i'm not interested in voting for dannflor unless time passes and he falls off (which could happen but time has not yet passed).

Just kind of reiterating that read without anything new, but making sure to keep the door open for a future vote. So like all this accomplishes is setting things up so Implo can vote for Dann later? Which is also something Implo ends up saying about me. Can't say I'm a big fan of these posts anticipating votes instead of just voting when it feels right to. Feels overly careful.

yeah sure whatever taly is town probably

Taly makes a bunch of good posts (including a vote on Dann, notably) and then Implo pops in with this. I guess it's alright I dunno

Relevantly the coalition game that I was in w Ari and Merlyn just ended today and I was scum so I have some extremely fresh scum meta, which is almost never true of me lol

I think it gave me a pretty good sense of some things from Ari to be on the lookout for as reasons to townread her. If I were a man of more patience I would go back and reread the game from forever ago where she snowed me as scum but i am not going to do that probably ever lol

He acts all murky about Ari for a while, then says he can have better reasons to townread her now, and then doesn't elaborate. Only been 24 hours tbf but his positioning around Ari is definitely odd. Feels like he's scared of her.

VOTE: Implosion
Let's nudge here, why don't we?

VOTE: implosion

????

You know what, i'm not gonna ask anymore, i'm just gonna hope someone that's good at the game gives me some guidance while I figure out where my head is at.

I think this reaction would be kind of incredible to fake as scum. Like, I've been vaguely lurking and beeboy has been talking about thinking their wagon was scum driven and so i feel like replying to beeboy jumping on me with a ???? after beeboy just listed me near the bottom of their reads list the previous page is just like, something scum who care sharply about how they're perceived would never do. I think sakura is already (widely?) townread but this cements it pretty hard for me sort of in the vein of the philosophy that I think Shirou mentioned earlier of trying to read people off a few key posts, which I think I kind of agree with or at least am interested in thinking about as a philosophy of forum mafia.

Like Sakura pointed out, this is very much echoing previous sentiments about her. There's a lot of words so it feels good but the crux of it is "Sakura doesn't care about how she's seen" which like true, but also applies to other posts of her and has already been mentioned.

I have very mixed feelings on beeboy's current trajectory. I think the part of it that I see as unlikely to come from scum is that just literally calling every single person on your wagon scum is I think a somewhat unnatural reaction to have as scum, I think as scum you get to choose what your reads are and so the normal thing to do is to like, pick a token person on your wagon whomst you will say is actually town and then lambast the rest of it. The counterpoint to this is that beeboy is coming back from a long break so I could see them theoretically being kind of lazy as scum and just falling in to pushing all the people pushing them. But I think I am tending to think it's probably town, I don't really see a good reason for scum beeboy to decide to wake up and choose violence in this way. It just kind of puts them at the center of narratives and in the spotlight and embroils them in conflict and idk what the point would be when simpler options exist.

In a dramatic turn of irony i am now going to call beeboy the only townie on my wagon (nah but i am about to call meuh scum i think)

I think Implo not noticing the mention that Taly had been on the Beeboy wagon and that Beeboy was townreading her isn't a very good look... feels odd to drop a read like this but then also just not see 1281 which is quite literally 2 pages earlier, and right after Beeboy's readlist. But like regardless, the argument here is just that scum!Beeboy would not take the stance that his wagon is scumlead cause that makes conflict? Which sure is fine I guess

Anyway. Let's wrap up the post chain with a summary of where I'm at with everyone.

Very Much Locktown: Mandate, Sakura. It'd take a hell of a lot to convince me away from either of them.

Town: Brown Eyes, Keyleth

Probably Town but not as confident as above: beeboy, Dunn (only townread I think I haven't talked about at all yet, but kind of a gut feels-like-he's-playing-like-i-remember-his-towngame-looking)

Town, but will need to be audited sooner than other townreads: Dannflor

Town, but I still have reservations: Taly

Still gotta sort: Ari, Merlyn, Alisae

Also in the still gotta sort tier, but I'm choosing to put him separately not because I think he's scummier than the other people in the tier but because it'll make him angry: Shirou

I saw a thing I don't like and don't remember seeing anything I thought was particularly town but I am definitely going to go look over more stuff later: Meuh

Brown Eyes and Keyleth seemingly haven't changed in Implo's eyes since like his second post? I think the specific mention of the Dunn townread not being spoken about yet is another one of those things that could theoretically be said by town, but that I think scum are more likely to notice. Him elaborating on that read but not some of the older reads that he hasn't touched on in ages very much gives that scummy feel of a player sticking to exactly what's been said before and only deviating on an explicit mention of the contrary.
Definitely curious about his progression on Taly, cause it very much swung with the way the thread was going, which feels convenient.

Overall:
-His town reads feel white knighty
-He feels scared of Ari
-His stance of Taly is convenient
-It feels like he has a need to make his stance exceedingly clear and doesn't like leaving things vague (which is very much a scum perspective)
-There's an almost total lack of progression that feels like it's happening outside of the thread. Every little change in Implo's view of the game is stated in thread. He's not developing a full view of the game on his own, he's dropping thoughts in thread and those thoughts alone are his stance in the game.

[Taly]

I'm not used to being talked about that much in a game and it's really stroking my ego keep it up

- but real talk, I'll reread to give justice to

Meuh

here

[Taly]

I will say this stance feels a bit spontaneous given that it has posts from much earlier in the thread

Why point it out now

Meuh

?

[Sakura Hana]

VOTE: implosion

[Meuh]

I get why Implo would get a day 1 pass and I would usually advocate for it (stuff like EV is generally useful and he's posting in a way that feels helpful) but nothing he's said is actually town indicative and we're starving for scumreads... I think that's the exact kind of slot we need to reconsider in this type of situation

Speaking of this.
Do you think implo would have a reason to post the EV stuff as scum.

Like that's the one thing on my head, i dont think at the time (although i cant remember havent double checked) anyone was specially suspecting implo, and as scum he could've stayed silent about the EVs and go with whatever better strategy for his scumteam would be.
Or am i just looking too much into something that's NAI.

First and foremost, I'll echo 288 and 315. Scum just kind of do things and it's not always super agenda based or has deep meaning.
I do think Implo has some things to gain here. I'm not super familiar with him but I think it may be something that's kind of expected from him, this sort of analysis. I think it's less powerful in making Implo getting super townread (cause sure, EV is something anyone can do), but it creates a presence in thread and makes him less appealing as a lim.

I've explained my reads on everybody. I believe I've gone into at least some detail on why I am reading players as town. It's not really surprising, or it shouldn't be.

can you explain the implosion townread?

I liked their early analysis and their EV posting. It is a lazier read admittedly, but I don't see their posting as scummy.

Like hey, look at this! Dunn's stance on Implo shows why it's good for Implo to do. His posting is seen as helpful and denser. It all gives the idea that we should give him a day 1 pass, which I mention here:

I get why Implo would get a day 1 pass and I would usually advocate for it (stuff like EV is generally useful and he's posting in a way that feels helpful) but nothing he's said is actually town indicative and we're starving for scumreads... I think that's the exact kind of slot we need to reconsider in this type of situation

Ultimately posting about the EV probably goes with Implo's meta, creates thread presence and feels helpful. It's definitely been beneficial.
The downside you mentioned is us knowing spare was better, but:
1. Pretty sure people were already leaning that way? (At least I was)
2. People are naturally gonna lean towards spare as it's the unique option (otherwise we're just playing a mountainous, which I enjoy but is definitely less exciting)
3. If there is meta on Implo being good at EV, NOT taking the stance that spare is correct could then reflect negatively.

[Meuh]

I will say this stance feels a bit spontaneous given that it has posts from much earlier in the thread

Why point it out now

Meuh

?

Some were things I saw when first reading the game, but it's also little details that made me go "hmmmm" when I skimmed Implo's ISO before voting there yesterday. There's also specifically that Implo's recent posting, which I see in a more negative light, has little issues in it that I also remembered seeing earlier. The mention of Sakura already being townread got linked to him saying the same thing about Dann, the specificity of reads and single-post-focus is also something I had already picked up on a bit and his stance on Ari I was already confused by. The seeds were there, me taking another look at the ISO to analyze his townreads just made them sprout.

[Taly]

UNVOTE:

[Taly]

Meuh

how do you feel about 1236? And

Merlyn

as a whole by extension?

Echoing this

[Taly]

Sakura

are we the same person:
Multiple Choice
A) Yes
B) Yes

[Mandate]

I have thoughts but I'll post the more meaningful ones later

[Mandate]

I'll give one meaningful one

I am pretty doubtful that implosion is scum here

But I'll give the possibility a full read over later

[Keyleth]

I can see that we're starting to get a tad divided and while that's probably good if we can sit down and calculate the exact meaning, right now it's a tad challenging. I wanna catch up and comment on a few things but right now this is just at the front of my mind and I wanted to get the thought out as I put my groceries away.

[Mandate]

I don't really think the arguments for or against Implo scum even address the reasons why in my view he is likely town and the case against him seems to exist more as "these are the reasons why a scum could potential do some of these things that he is doing" as opposed to existing in th space of "he shouldn't be town doing X" which is like, nice for trying to counter townreads and I grok the argument of okay we aren't finding scum we should reeval the less locked in townreads but

Yeah Keyleth I think so too, like I think if we just find and eliminate scum this game will get a lot easier probably

I do want to take my time and think carefully and respond to things from both Beeboy and Merlyn before I proceed with anything though which I suppose I will do now