Toriel's Patience (end)

[beeboy]

beeboy

how do you read 2373 and 2374?

I find conspiracy theories are more likely to come from town so maybe I'm the wrong person to ask.
But I like those 2 posts.

[Isis]

the deadline will get 24 hours + the time between this post and the securing of a replacement

[Dannflor]

bingle wtf are you saying

[Dannflor]

like in what world am i the best vote to you at this point in the day when you have no defined reason for scum reading me and "every part of your soul" is telling you im town

[Dannflor]

like even if you believe i have deepwolf (lel) potential why am i your first choice for today

[Keyleth]

If meuh flips town it has wolves all over it

Really? I got the exact opposite vibe unless freedom is a wolf.

[Freedom]

TBH I actually feel like scum are mostly off Meuh's wagon.

[Freedom]

I'll post more this afternoon.
I'm going to school rn.

[Dunnstral]

If meuh flips town it has wolves all over it

Really? I got the exact opposite vibe unless freedom is a wolf.

Explain please

[Dunnstral]

TBH I actually feel like scum are mostly off Meuh's wagon.

You too I suppose

I'll decide where to move my vote tonight

[Taly]

key/freedom

are clones of the other

[implosion]

i really have absolutely no strong vibes about the wagon itself and I question anyone who thinks that the wagon for the wagon's sake is specifically likely to come from town or scum. Town are probably fed up with the game state and want blood (e.g. me, but also Meuh is my preferred lim). Scum are probably not strongly feeling the need to push the wagon nor strongly feeling the need to avoid it; it's probably gonna be pushed anyway eventually so scum probably don't *need* to hop on (unless Alisae is scum but even then I don't think scum would be avoiding the wagon and Alisae is the person saying the wagon might be full of scum) and I don't think it's especially suspicious to be on a wagon after how this day has gone so I don't think scum particularly would care to avoid it.

I really don't especially care about getting RN's replacement to commit to a stance before the day ends, I don't think it's especially likely to be super info-meaningful.

This isn’t why Implo thinks I’m scum or how he convinced himself, it’s him justifying turning back.
On a surface level, the things I have done aren’t necessarily super helpful or justify a townread, but Implo never actually shows that he scumreads me. He’s just saying that the position in which I exist is one where a scumread on me is justifiable, and then plops a vote back down. To the people who think my Implo read lacks a backbone, this should be sounding the alarms.
He says he SHOULDN’T take me out of the POE. He says I SHOULD be more actively be trying to sort him. It’s going down a checklist of productive town behaviours and checking yes or no, it’s not trying to sort me.

Sure I’m defeatist, sure I “should” be more actively sorting Implo, sure other townies have provided meatier content, sure my progressions can be faked.
But am I scum? Implo doesn’t ask himself that question. He just explains why a world in which I am scum can exist.

This is such a weird time to make this argument because the post of mine that you quoted is literally the first time that I have made a salient argument for why you are scum actively, rather than just why you can potentially be scum. Like it honestly feels like you didn't read the post of mine that you quoted here and are responding to the rest of my ISO. In that post I specifically say "I don't think that's the behavior of town" in describing your actions. Like I have no clue what calling you scum or asking myself that question means other than saying that your posting isn't coming from town

[Meuh]

I've skimmed Merlyn's ISO here along with her ISO in the two games I played with her where she was scum and a recent town game.
I'm... probably less confident than I should be after doing that, but I think her play resembles her towngame a bit more? Could always just be since the town game was more recent, but the little things I notice point towards town. I kind of took issue with the way she explained herself feeling a bit... not performative, not stiff, just kind of too clean? But checking her town game, that's also how she expresses herself there.
A lot of the back and forths with questions could indicate either alignment I guess, they don't feel like pointless meandering though? 982 slightly townpings me cause like does scum ask for that?
1235 feels a bit too out there to be scum
It just kinda adds up for me, I occasionally go ndfjushfuihf when looking at her ISO (931 fills me with dread) but there's things that feel a bit out of reach for scum Merlyn? I think my read of Merlyn being town for being less stiff is bad and I was right to dismiss it, but I think there's townie inclinations in the way she posts and her overall view of the game
1461 comes more from town Merlyn, so does 247
UNVOTE:
Where's scum

[Meuh]

VOTE: Meuh

Deadline how I hate you for sneaking upon I.

This vote sure sucks

[Meuh]

I feel like there's scum in Keyleth/Sakura that have been missed

[Meuh]

The idea of someone following a read I made and then I getting it wrong is easily one of my biggest fears in mafia, people are probably way better at making reads than me so I don't mind just sitting here in my little corner.

UGhbjhbehjb this is town though

[Meuh]

Not like just that post specifically I skimmed that ISO it's good

[Meuh]

byudyuwdywY Sakura should definitely not be confidently townbinned here

[Meuh]

But also there are good posts

[Meuh]

I guess i'll go play some videogames, and come back with a clearer mind.
Then i'll try to figure out this mess.
But there's one thing that's been bugging me.
And that is Alisae.
I dont think Alisae Scum makes the kind of posts e did towards me.
In fact sometimes i think that i'm eir literal focus this entire phase.
Yet if Alisae's town, then i'm wrong somewhere.
And i need to figure out where my head is at.
My gut's telling me to vote freedom.
My mind's telling me to stay on Meuh.
My townreads say freedom's likely town.
My heart says Meuh's likely town.

I don't even know where to go anymore

Flips table

Ok, rant over, maybe i do really need to clear my head a bit.

Like this makes Sakura scum a hard pill to swallow

[Meuh]

I'm not sure I fully buy the general "I'm bad at the game please help me" sentiment though

[Meuh]

IDk a lot of the posting around her lack of confidence doesn't fully click for me? It makes me scared

[Meuh]

I feel like after the replacements my WIM took a big hit, which caused me to get stuck i feel like i'm reading things and nothing's sticking, i don't even know what to make of Alisae's reply to me.

Eh, I feel like i'm just grapsing for straws at this point.
Trying to find other scumreads instead of just sheeping Mandate's case.
But I keep getting stuck everytime i try.

Maybe it's too performative????

[Meuh]

lol.

I still cant shake that weird feeling i got from Merlyn back when she voted me.

Expand perhaps?

It's hard to explain, so i'll just call it gut, but if i tried... idk, like, it felt like someone wanting to jump in to dismantle one of the most townread players in the game?, i don't remember anymore, also dont even remember if i explained it back then, but all I remember is that after i got a plausible explanation for Dann i just backed off and forgot about Merlyn... i think?

Sakura focuses a LOT on the way other people townread her and justification for it, and says she's scared of being pocketed and all, so it does kind of stick out to me here the way she draws back on that scumread to establish a progression long-term.
Like she engages with reads on her a bunch, but this one that she loops back around to is one of the only scumreads?
and it doesn't feel like Sakura's paranoia to be pocketed and the townreads surrounding her really amounts to anything unless I'm missing something
Makes a lot of her less confident posting feel iffier

[Meuh]

Spoiler:

I get why Implo would get a day 1 pass and I would usually advocate for it (stuff like EV is generally useful and he's posting in a way that feels helpful) but nothing he's said is actually town indicative and we're starving for scumreads... I think that's the exact kind of slot we need to reconsider in this type of situation

Speaking of this.
Do you think implo would have a reason to post the EV stuff as scum.

Like that's the one thing on my head, i dont think at the time (although i cant remember havent double checked) anyone was specially suspecting implo, and as scum he could've stayed silent about the EVs and go with whatever better strategy for his scumteam would be.
Or am i just looking too much into something that's NAI.

Gut from pages 1-4 is Dann town (though I think I remember seeing that's someone consensus?), Mandate town (...) I thought Mandate's opening was slightly +town even from someone who is clearly gimmicking and I like the timing of the Taly vote on page 4 quite a lot. Dann is townish just for voting like 8 times in 4 pages.

149 is actually an interesting post and probably true of me bc I probably would have explained things in the scum PT at some point, alas. Probably +town (maybe strongly) for Brown Eyes to point out an observation like that, it's an observation that could easily just never be made by anyone. Dunn calling Brown Eyes town shortly after this is slightly good for Dunn (who I don't really have much of a read on at this point).

Mandate town is easy to say, Implo just proceeds to point out bad posts
It's a read I agree with but also like, naturally easy to fake
Dann read is, as Implo himself pointed out, what a lot of other people were already thinking, easily fakeable.
The Brown Eyes townread is probably the best read Implo has, but 1. I think it's something he could still notice and then comment on, and 2. it's a read based off of a singular post. I think this comes back around later with the Sakura read and it's interesting the way that Implo is laser focusing on a single post, I think it makes it easier for him to argue a scumread but also feels less townie because well, there's a whole bunch of other posts to consider! This is something that comes back a few times, the specificity of the reads. It's always specific things being pointed out and being the reasoning for reads, which seems to me to come more from scum trying to make sure their reads are understood to be about a thing in particular. Scum really hate it when their ideas aren't clear, but townies are much more likely to make broad statement about other people's posting and the general vibes from said posting. But for Implo it's almost always one post or another, never a player's general direction.

221 is a pretty good point (on Keyleth being town) and probably +town a bit for Sakura. To elaborate a bit since it came into question why I think it's +town for Keyleth, the post is just very frank about what it's trying to do. I think scum on average will tend to shy away from a post that's like "hey, we already have me + x as town, who are the other two" particularly in the context of Keyleth having some heat on her. It's not a slam dunk or anything, but I think it's very easy to glance at that post and briefly *think* it's a slam dunk before you've thought it through intensely, hence Sakura is slightly townish for it (but only slightly and this paragraph is already way too long)

This is like, fine, but also something Implo can just say about a town Sakura. I guess the point about it being surface-level scummy but actually town indicative is cool, but it's also the exact angle Implo would be able to argue from with the knowledge that Sakura is town and the thread otherwise disliking that post from her.

i can see 449 being townish, 378 is kind of eh though.

ARE YOU STILL GLAZING OVER THEM

yes

Meh

Somewhat inclined to trust Ari on Sakura.

explain the mandate tr plz

wasn't to me but mandate is extremely town in my eyes.

They have all the right stances at all the right times. The way they're thinking about the game feels right, I liked their opening, I liked the evolution of their taly+keyleth team read, I like the evolution of their stances in general, like, the townread on sakura a page or two ago is good for example

This read is less specific ("the way they're thinking about the game", "evolution of stances"), though I think Implo going out of his way to explain why a widely townread player is town isn't the best look?

i think dannflor's first 10 or however many pages were really town, i'm not interested in voting for dannflor unless time passes and he falls off (which could happen but time has not yet passed).

Just kind of reiterating that read without anything new, but making sure to keep the door open for a future vote. So like all this accomplishes is setting things up so Implo can vote for Dann later? Which is also something Implo ends up saying about me. Can't say I'm a big fan of these posts anticipating votes instead of just voting when it feels right to. Feels overly careful.

yeah sure whatever taly is town probably

Taly makes a bunch of good posts (including a vote on Dann, notably) and then Implo pops in with this. I guess it's alright I dunno

Relevantly the coalition game that I was in w Ari and Merlyn just ended today and I was scum so I have some extremely fresh scum meta, which is almost never true of me lol

I think it gave me a pretty good sense of some things from Ari to be on the lookout for as reasons to townread her. If I were a man of more patience I would go back and reread the game from forever ago where she snowed me as scum but i am not going to do that probably ever lol

He acts all murky about Ari for a while, then says he can have better reasons to townread her now, and then doesn't elaborate. Only been 24 hours tbf but his positioning around Ari is definitely odd. Feels like he's scared of her.

VOTE: Implosion
Let's nudge here, why don't we?

VOTE: implosion

????

You know what, i'm not gonna ask anymore, i'm just gonna hope someone that's good at the game gives me some guidance while I figure out where my head is at.

I think this reaction would be kind of incredible to fake as scum. Like, I've been vaguely lurking and beeboy has been talking about thinking their wagon was scum driven and so i feel like replying to beeboy jumping on me with a ???? after beeboy just listed me near the bottom of their reads list the previous page is just like, something scum who care sharply about how they're perceived would never do. I think sakura is already (widely?) townread but this cements it pretty hard for me sort of in the vein of the philosophy that I think Shirou mentioned earlier of trying to read people off a few key posts, which I think I kind of agree with or at least am interested in thinking about as a philosophy of forum mafia.

Like Sakura pointed out, this is very much echoing previous sentiments about her. There's a lot of words so it feels good but the crux of it is "Sakura doesn't care about how she's seen" which like true, but also applies to other posts of her and has already been mentioned.

I have very mixed feelings on beeboy's current trajectory. I think the part of it that I see as unlikely to come from scum is that just literally calling every single person on your wagon scum is I think a somewhat unnatural reaction to have as scum, I think as scum you get to choose what your reads are and so the normal thing to do is to like, pick a token person on your wagon whomst you will say is actually town and then lambast the rest of it. The counterpoint to this is that beeboy is coming back from a long break so I could see them theoretically being kind of lazy as scum and just falling in to pushing all the people pushing them. But I think I am tending to think it's probably town, I don't really see a good reason for scum beeboy to decide to wake up and choose violence in this way. It just kind of puts them at the center of narratives and in the spotlight and embroils them in conflict and idk what the point would be when simpler options exist.

In a dramatic turn of irony i am now going to call beeboy the only townie on my wagon (nah but i am about to call meuh scum i think)

I think Implo not noticing the mention that Taly had been on the Beeboy wagon and that Beeboy was townreading her isn't a very good look... feels odd to drop a read like this but then also just not see 1281 which is quite literally 2 pages earlier, and right after Beeboy's readlist. But like regardless, the argument here is just that scum!Beeboy would not take the stance that his wagon is scumlead cause that makes conflict? Which sure is fine I guess

Anyway. Let's wrap up the post chain with a summary of where I'm at with everyone.

Very Much Locktown: Mandate, Sakura. It'd take a hell of a lot to convince me away from either of them.

Town: Brown Eyes, Keyleth

Probably Town but not as confident as above: beeboy, Dunn (only townread I think I haven't talked about at all yet, but kind of a gut feels-like-he's-playing-like-i-remember-his-towngame-looking)

Town, but will need to be audited sooner than other townreads: Dannflor

Town, but I still have reservations: Taly

Still gotta sort: Ari, Merlyn, Alisae

Also in the still gotta sort tier, but I'm choosing to put him separately not because I think he's scummier than the other people in the tier but because it'll make him angry: Shirou

I saw a thing I don't like and don't remember seeing anything I thought was particularly town but I am definitely going to go look over more stuff later: Meuh

Brown Eyes and Keyleth seemingly haven't changed in Implo's eyes since like his second post? I think the specific mention of the Dunn townread not being spoken about yet is another one of those things that could theoretically be said by town, but that I think scum are more likely to notice. Him elaborating on that read but not some of the older reads that he hasn't touched on in ages very much gives that scummy feel of a player sticking to exactly what's been said before and only deviating on an explicit mention of the contrary.
Definitely curious about his progression on Taly, cause it very much swung with the way the thread was going, which feels convenient.

Overall:
-His town reads feel white knighty
-He feels scared of Ari
-His stance of Taly is convenient
-It feels like he has a need to make his stance exceedingly clear and doesn't like leaving things vague (which is very much a scum perspective)
-There's an almost total lack of progression that feels like it's happening outside of the thread. Every little change in Implo's view of the game is stated in thread. He's not developing a full view of the game on his own, he's dropping thoughts in thread and those thoughts alone are his stance in the game.

VOTE: implosion

Sakura what's your general readslist

I townread almost everyone and i think i need a reset.
Don't townread Alisae, implosion kinda fell off, wasn't townreading Meuh initially until the implosion case, don't townread Brown Eyes, Don't townread Merlyn.

Actually might be better to look at the actual playerlist because I keep forgetting people.

Dannflor - Eh towny?
Aristeia - Idk
Lazy Shirou - Idk
Brown Eyes - Idk
Dunnstral - Most likely town
Meuh - Most likely town
Merlyn - Idk
Keyleth - Town
Mandate - Town
Alisae - Idk
Taly - Town
implosion - Probs scum
beeboy - Town

Actually I townread a lot less people than i thought i did.

This read is less specific ("the way they're thinking about the game", "evolution of stances"), though I think Implo going out of his way to explain why a widely townread player is town isn't the best look?

Okay, now I'm getting frustrated. When I explain why Sakura is town and mention that she's a consensus townread, it's scummy. When I explain why Mandate is town but don't mention that they're a consensus townread, it's scummy. Am I not allowed to have opinions about consensus townreads? Like, you say this about consensus townreads:

It's not really a consideration I have when posting reads as town.

And now you say this:

I think Implo going out of his way to explain why a widely townread player is town isn't the best look?

As though it

should

be a consideration that I have when posting reads as town, because it's scummy to post a townread on someone who is already consensus town.

Huh, this is a good point actually.

I'm still not entirely sure who's the one pulling a fast one on me here, and i'm currently too tired. But since there's a chance my vote is in the wrong place right now i'll just remove it for the time being.
UNVOTE:

Man, this is the downside of being a consensus townread i feel like people keep pulling my arms in different directions until they rip them off my body or something.
Either way, i'm not placing down a vote until i finish my nap.

Okay, reading that with a fresh mind, i guess it makes sense.
VOTE: Meuh

Making me realize how little of this playlist I've actually played with before
Meh you can mislim me and then next time I play with you all, maybe you won't

If you and implo are town then who's scum

I guess the most important things of note,

Meuh made a case against implosion, implosion responded, your predecessor called it the scummiest post ever and went against Meuh, I sheeped him,

then Ari stated a scumread on implo, your predecessor and Dann, then your predecessor exploded, argued with Ari, things escalated and both replaced out.

And Alisae has been absent the entire game.

There's other things that have happened but those are the ones i have the most fresh on my memory.

This is bad, right??? Am I just way off or is this just not a townie?