open 894: near vanilla (game over)

[ProjEctRy]

Hey guys. Fresh meat here!

VOTE: Kurtapika. I’m the true newbie around here. I don’t even have a profile pic!

[ProjEctRy]

UNVOTE: Kurtapika

Im new to the game so struggling to get involved, but whilst weak my initial suspicions would be for T3.

I’ve found his posts to be the most defensive. Particularly 39.

I also don’t like 63. I don’t like that he answered for Asia, whilst saying not to answer for her. Asia has been prodding slightly at T3 and I’m conscious whether answering for her was almost doing her a favour to get her off his back. Almost a ‘look im on your side’.

This read could be completely off, but I’d be curious to know peoples thoughts.

[ProjEctRy]

I agree 39 could be a bit defensive. But, as with most things so far, it's hardly conclusive evidence! I'm not really sure what T3's alignment is yet myself. Is there anything that makes you think T3 might be town?

His level of involvement in pushing discussion and analysing players feels more townie. He’s not afraid to put himself out there. But I do think that’s a very basic, newbie take from me. I don’t think an experienced player would be concerned about that if scum.

Otherwise, I don’t really have much of a read either way, other than what I’ve previously added.

Also, apologies Aisa, I had your name wrong in my previous post.

[ProjEctRy]

UNVOTE: Kurtapika

Im new to the game so struggling to get involved, but whilst weak my initial suspicions would be for T3.

I’ve found his posts to be the most defensive. Particularly 39.

I also don’t like 63. I don’t like that he answered for Asia, whilst saying not to answer for her. Asia has been prodding slightly at T3 and I’m conscious whether answering for her was almost doing her a favour to get her off his back. Almost a ‘look im on your side’.

This read could be completely off, but I’d be curious to know peoples thoughts.

If your suspicions lie with T3, why didn't you move your vote to him?

I removed my previous vote because we seemed to be out of RVS. I didn’t place my vote on T3, as whilst I gave my initial thoughts of suspicion, I wasn’t overall confident in those suspicions so didn’t feel they warranted a vote yet.

[ProjEctRy]

I like T3 here too. 15 feels like he's mocking bella considering his read in 26 which is kinda mean but not necessarily scum indicative. I like Project's read on T3 in 91 and I had similar thoughts when reading through, so I like Project so far as well

Black - I’m taking ‘like’ to equate to leaning town but is there more to what is making you lean town for T3?

I found the reasons in your post to be fairly weak to form a town read, even though part of it is based off of shared thoughts with me. Whilst I gave thoughts in 91 as to what I found to be town leaning about T3, I though those thoughts were very basic and could easily be inapplicable to a more experienced player. Presumably you don’t agree? (Or agree basic but still applicable ha)

The other part of your comments regarding him point out that him being mean is not necessarily scum indicative, but it wouldn’t make me lean Town either.

I’m just curious if there is more that I’m missing as to why you (or anyone else) think T3 is leaning town.

[ProjEctRy]

Why do you think you need to be confident to place your vote down on T3? It takes 8 to eliminate somebody today, and yours would be only 2/8. Votes are often considered a tool to put pressure on other players on this site.

Do you have any other suspicions?

I felt my read was weak so didn’t warrant the vote at that stage, but I appreciate what you’re saying and I guess I’ll come to learn to use my vote in that way.

As it stands I’m likely to place my vote on T3, but as per your question as to whether I have any other suspicions, not really, but I’m going to read everything over again. It nobody else stands out then I’ll place my vote on T3.

[ProjEctRy]

I would say it's more of a townlean than a full on townread, and yeah it's definitely weak. My reads generally are early on. There's not much more to my read other than thinking T3 doesn't have to be doing this if he's scum here. And thinking about his mocking of bella a little more I feel like that's more likely to come from town. I don't think scum would want to make enemies on page 1

Ok, fair point in relation to the mocking. I agree, dumb move to be making enemies that early if scum.

[ProjEctRy]

Interesting; so it's more of a rxn-based meta?

My feeling is that Bella's lack of disclosure on the tr itself after being challenged reads as scum. Initial post could be an attempt on getting a foot in first with an easy read to present with towny appearance, coupled with the openness of Bella's #41 leaving ambiguity in the conversation from T3's #26.

Not a strong presentation per se but it's notable imo. Dannflor reads as town to me as of this vote. I'm mainly in agreement with shaddowez on Aisa, no comment on the others for now.

Kurtapika - In this post you had Dannflor as town. On what basis?

By post 60, Dannflor had offered nothing serious or substantial to give any indication either way.

You refer to ‘as of this vote’. I assume you were referring to Dannflor’s vote on Shaddowez in the previous post. However, Dannflor offered no comment or reasoning for that vote. Dannflor’s vote didn’t seem serious either as Shaddowez hadn’t contributed much by that point to give a read.

Why would you think Dannflor is town based off of his limited involved to that point or off of that vote?

[ProjEctRy]

VOTE: dannflor

Is there reasoning to this vote?

Also, I’ve noticed several people posting solely a vote without context or reasoning. Is that normal?

I thought we were out of RVS. The posts also don’t necessarily seem to be placeholder for reasoning to follow. Am I missing something?

[ProjEctRy]

Kurtapika - In this post you had Dannflor as town. On what basis?

By post 60, Dannflor had offered nothing serious or substantial to give any indication either way.

You refer to ‘as of this vote’. I assume you were referring to Dannflor’s vote on Shaddowez in the previous post. However, Dannflor offered no comment or reasoning for that vote. Dannflor’s vote didn’t seem serious either as Shaddowez hadn’t contributed much by that point to give a read.

Why would you think Dannflor is town based off of his limited involved to that point or off of that vote?

This is why I view Dannflor as town. The lack of need for upfront explanation and being comfortable to individually go and push/rxn in spite of his openly limited involvement reeks of townie POV to me. Essentially, a massive decreased incentive for caution. Doubt this would give any kind of good impression as scum. If it's a scum playstyle it's one I'd be unfamiliar with in experienced players for sure.

Hmmm ok. However, others players have done similar posts / votes and if Afrayed’s explanation in 186 is correct - that this is just something people do on this site - it would negate any resulting town read from this.

[ProjEctRy]

Black's probably town, I'm a bit concerned about aisa, one of the three people I don't know with really long names feels scummier than the others.

Titus isn't someone I'd lim today.
P-edit it feels like something I would feel worried about as scum, that's all.

How am I so townread? Not complaining but still

Yeah @Bella, why would your position be ‘Titus isn’t someone I’d lim today’?

Aside from saying Kurtapika was ‘awkward and distant’ Titus hadn’t contributed anything else of note by that point so how come you were so opposed?

Shouldn’t your position be that you had no read rather than Titus being off the table?

[ProjEctRy]

@Project is this your first mafia game ever?

Yes. Is it that obvious? haha.

[ProjEctRy]

@Project is this your first mafia game ever?

Yes. Is it that obvious? haha.

No. I think you're playing really good, especially considering how new you are

You're probably my top townread tbh. I don't really see newscum being this competent at radiating towniness

Oh thanks. I thought you meant I was doing really bad haha.

[ProjEctRy]

The move at this point I'd think would be best lim the lowest posters over anything, I don't have a strong sr personally and I imagine it would be conducive to getting an overall better idea of who's solidly town when more of the table is producing content later down the line. Plus it'd root out whether we're dealing with scum on one of them or if and where we're going to be narrowing down existing townish reads.

I don’t like this idea. To me that is not the best move for town, just a random lim on a low contributor. I appreciate there is likely scum essentially hiding in the shadows but it’s a complete shot in the dark.

Surely it’s better to lim someone specific we have some suspicion over rather than just a complete random lim?

[ProjEctRy]

Black's probably town, I'm a bit concerned about aisa, one of the three people I don't know with really long names feels scummier than the others.

Titus isn't someone I'd lim today.
P-edit it feels like something I would feel worried about as scum, that's all.

How am I so townread? Not complaining but still

Yeah @Bella, why would your position be ‘Titus isn’t someone I’d lim today’?

Aside from saying Kurtapika was ‘awkward and distant’ Titus hadn’t contributed anything else of note by that point so how come you were so opposed?

Shouldn’t your position be that you had no read rather than Titus being off the table?

These things are kind of the same day one but it's also meta based: recently I've been fairly good at reading titus and I find her a useful presence in the game - I've also been able to find her as scum ok before, so I'd rather not lim them day one.

Hmm, I’m not sure I buy this explanation. Whilst a players meta can be a useful tool, I don’t think it should rule someone out completely, especially given Titus had done nothing else to warrant being off the table at that point.

I don’t think anyone should get a pass on the basis you might be able to read them better later in the game.

[ProjEctRy]

I don’t like this idea. To me that is not the best move for town, just a random lim on a low contributor. I appreciate there is likely scum essentially hiding in the shadows but it’s a complete shot in the dark.

Surely it’s better to lim someone specific we have some suspicion over rather than just a complete random lim?

This might be my differing experience with the styles of mafia games but it's my feeling that with this one at least, the majority of suspicions at D1 are going to essentially amount to a random lim. I would agree if it was a strong suspicion as to have most people on them, but we haven't reached that point at the moment, and this way even if temporarily votes can be effective in spite of lack of consensus. It seems beneficial to town to have a higher bar of content for scum to clear, at least if my thinking on this strategy does follow with site meta.

Is POE replying to the eliminating least content or ProjEct talking about eliminating a suspicion?

To some degree I can understand your point that most day 1 votes are random, to the extent that reads are weak so it can feel like we are clutching at straws. However, those votes still offer us more than a random elimination on a low contributor.

As Bella 346 and Black 350 point out, there is no analysis to be gained if we eliminate a low contributor and its wrong.

[ProjEctRy]

Also, you don't buy it because you don't agree, or you think we're scum buddies, or I'm making stuff up? It's important to know which one

More of a disagreement.

I do certainly disagree - As mentioned I don’t support a pass just because you may be able to read them better later in the game.

But, whilst I certainly find the premise anti-town, I’m not sure this specific issue makes me think you’re scum. What holds me back is that the motivation if scum would be that you were partners, however your position would be far too obvious / revealing which makes me think that’s not the case and it’s just a disagreement.

[ProjEctRy]

i decided i want my iso to mostly look like an oblivion live blog

just finished all of those mages guild recommendation quests finally. time for some stupid custom spells!

As noted in my exchange with Kurtapika, I’m against an random elimination purely based upon low contribution, however I did acknowledge the potential that the group of low contributors could include scum on the basis they are purposely avoiding attention.

Skygazer I believe you fall directly into this. You haven’t contributed a single post that offers any analysis or any attempt work out people’s alignment.

What exactly are your views on the game?

You’ve implied the reason for you lack of input is that you’ve been busy, but it actually appears you’re not busy, busy, you’re just playing video games. I’m concerned now that you’re actually just avoiding having to contribute purposefully to avoid any suspicion.

[ProjEctRy]

You’ve implied the reason for you lack of input is that you’ve been busy, but it actually appears you’re not busy, busy, you’re just playing video games. I’m concerned now that you’re actually just avoiding having to contribute purposefully to avoid any suspicion.

i never implied it was because i was busy, where did you get that idea?

Well if you’re not busy that’s even worse. Now it really does seem like you’re purposely avoiding contributing. I don’t think there is anything townie about that so…

VOTE: Skygazer

[ProjEctRy]

not contributing can certainly appear to be not townie, sure. but if i were scum, don't you think i'd be more worried about optics? how do you think i would stand to benefit from what i'm doing if i were scum?

It seems likes you are actively working against trying to contribute. Even after today when this has been pointed out to you, you still have yet to contribute anything meaningful. Your posts have all mainly been fluff.

In regards to the optics, yes potentially, but it feels like one of those situations where you do something so clearly scummy that you hide behind the defence of well I'm obviously not scum because I'd never do anything as stupidly obvious as that.

i mean my activity levels certainly aren't an active choice. since this game started my life has been:

- thanksgiving activities
- going to protests
- everything breaking at my job (and historically my job is pretty chill and most of my posting is on the clock)
- accidentally hyperfocusing on a video game from 2006

and again i reiterate that it's only been 6 days, and we have 6 more days left for day one. i will get to it at some point soon, i don't feel bad about my activity levels, and this feels a little overblown all things considered.

It certainly feels like an active choice. You've been around posting a lot today, but still nothing meaningful. Until your vote on me (which I'll come onto) you still hadn't shared a single thought on other players alignments. I also asked you your thoughts at 555, but you haven't responded to that.

Sky. Is this a D1 thing only, or are you switching to play Destiny2 or something else D2. Come on get in the game please

you'll probably be happier with my activity levels/contributions to game at some point. i do this a lot. in my defense, this game started during a major holiday, and oblivion is really addictive. also we're only half way thru day one.

my activity waxes and wanes, it's not unusual for me. but this game will probably be an extreme example of that

Also, your position here seems to be 'my current contribution (or lack of) isn't a problem, ignore it, I'll contribute more later in the game'. That's almost like asking for a pass for day 1. You want to be left alone to coast by, which is suspicious.

I don’t like this idea. To me that is not the best move for town, just a random lim on a low contributor. I appreciate there is likely scum essentially hiding in the shadows but it’s a complete shot in the dark.

Surely it’s better to lim someone specific we have some suspicion over rather than just a complete random lim?

this feels at odds with his vote on me

VOTE: proj

There is a difference between the two positions.

I'm opposed to a pure random elimination on a low contributor - in this situation there is no suspicion whatsoever. The player has contributed nothing to gauge any suspicious.

The difference with you is that whilst my suspicion arises from your lack of contribution, I'm not voting for you purely because you haven't contributed, but rather due to your reasoning or attitude behind not contributing.

[ProjEctRy]

Well if you’re not busy that’s even worse. Now it really does seem like you’re purposely avoiding contributing. I don’t think there is anything townie about that so…

Do you feel that anti-town and scum are the same?

I think they can be different and the same. In this situation, because of Sky's reasoning and attitude I think its scummy. If they're town and busy or can't be bothered to contribute right now then go VLA or sub out.

[ProjEctRy]

I don’t like this idea. To me that is not the best move for town, just a random lim on a low contributor. I appreciate there is likely scum essentially hiding in the shadows but it’s a complete shot in the dark.

Surely it’s better to lim someone specific we have some suspicion over rather than just a complete random lim?

this feels at odds with his vote on me

VOTE: proj

How? I think Project has made it clear that he's suspicious of you now

there are other parts of his iso i dont like too fwiw

Care to share?

[ProjEctRy]

VOTE: project

I think this is just a random pressure vote to gauge a reaction, but if not please share your reasons.

[ProjEctRy]

Something is going wrong with the quote posts so I'm going to have to respond in stages.

It seems likes you are actively working against trying to contribute. Even after today when this has been pointed out to you, you still have yet to contribute anything meaningful. Your posts have all mainly been fluff.

again, it's been six days. i'm at least trying today. and i'm not posting a wall to justify voting a player just for low activity.

It certainly feels like an active choice. You've been around posting a lot today, but still nothing meaningful. Until your vote on me (which I'll come onto) you still hadn't shared a single thought on other players alignments. I also asked you your thoughts at 555, but you haven't responded to that.

i think my posts have been at least somewhat meaningful. i haven't digested a lot of the game yet and i'm not about to make up reads just because someone asked me for reads. i'll post my reads on my own time as they come to me. and you never responded to me asking why you thought i said i was busy.

Unfortunately, aside from now engaging me, I still don't think you have contributed anything meaningful today. You even state you're not going to 'make up reads' which I take to be provide any thoughts just because someone asked you to.

It also wasn't a wall just to justify my vote. We were having a discussion, I was responding to you.

[ProjEctRy]

In regards to the optics, yes potentially, but it feels like one of those situations where you do something so clearly scummy that you hide behind the defence of well I'm obviously not scum because I'd never do anything as stupidly obvious as that.

i mean, in what way does that benefit scum-me? it would catch up to me eventually. wifom like that is not a great survival mechanism in the long term.

Also, your position here seems to be 'my current contribution (or lack of) isn't a problem, ignore it, I'll contribute more later in the game'. That's almost like asking for a pass for day 1. You want to be left alone to coast by, which is suspicious.

it's not suspicious. i have done this many times before. i will continue to do this. in fact, judging by the join dates of the two people voting me, i have a hunch that i'll continue getting away with it, because the people that know me don't seem to be bothered enough to even press me that hard on it. maybe its problematic behavior on my part but i get away with it because i'm funny.

The benefit for scum-you would be that you do think you could get away with it. You literally say 'I have a hunch that I'll continue getting away with it'. Your position is that the experienced players know what this is so they wouldn't vote you for it. Well then you could get away with it if you were really playing it from a scum angle.

[ProjEctRy]

There is a difference between the two positions.

I'm opposed to a pure random elimination on a low contributor - in this situation there is no suspicion whatsoever. The player has contributed nothing to gauge any suspicious.

The difference with you is that whilst my suspicion arises from your lack of contribution, I'm not voting for you purely because you haven't contributed, but rather due to your reasoning or attitude behind not contributing.

i mean, the oblivion thing was shitposting to some extent, as i clarified later. even so, i don't see any sort of functional difference between "i'm busy" and "i've been distracted by other things." so i don't think there's an actual difference between the two positions, i think you just wanted to make an easy push.

Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t understand your post here? I’m wasn’t talking about a difference between ‘I’m busy’ and ‘I’ve been distracted by other things’. I was talking about the difference in eliminating someone based purely off of no content vs. eliminating someone based off of their reasoning for low contribution.

Also, I forgot when quoting your other part to respond to the question re: why I thought you were busy. I must have misinterpreted you.

[ProjEctRy]

VOTE: project

I think this is just a random pressure vote to gauge a reaction, but if not please share your reasons.

this is such a ridiculously scummy post.

VOTE: project

I think this is just a random pressure vote to gauge a reaction, but if not please share your reasons.

why do you assume it is a random pressure vote and why did you feel the need to tell me that's what you thought it was?

I don’t think it’s a scummy post. I’d asked about those type of posts (vote with no reasoning) and Afrayed explained it in 186 and Dann had done several of those posts so I though that is what this was.

As to why I noted that, it was more born out of an internal development - I’m new so I’m was conscious as to whether I’m correctly identifying things and by stating it I’d get a response which will inform me as to whether I am in fact correctly interpreting thing.

[ProjEctRy]

there are other parts of his iso i dont like too fwiw

Care to share?

it feels like you're playing to get townread instead of playing to solve. can't find the words beyond that at the moment.

I don't understand how you can look at Project's iso and come to this conclusion. He's pretty clearly trying to solve imo

I also don't think 627 is "ridiculously scummy" or even scummy at all considering his views on votes without reasons in 158

This push is kinda scummy

i mean sure on the surface level it seems solvey but i feel like his posts have a lot of fluff to them in a way that reads to me as more worried about optics/putting on the appearance of solving. i feel like his vote on me indicates that he's not actually putting that much thought into solving the game.

Isn’t fluff posts and not trying to solve the game exactly what you’ve been doing the majority of this game?

If that’s scummy then it applies to you too.

[ProjEctRy]

VOTE: Skygazer

Really not liking this push right after she admitted that it's easy for her to come up with scumreads as scum

skygazer does nothing: oh my god shes not doing anything!!

skygazer starts doing stuff in reaction to being attacked for doing nothing: oh my god she's making up reads!!

To me this reads your focus on me is reactionary. You think I’m scum because I’ve accused you.

[ProjEctRy]

Unfortunately, aside from now engaging me, I still don't think you have contributed anything meaningful today. You even state you're not going to 'make up reads' which I take to be provide any thoughts just because someone asked you to.

It also wasn't a wall just to justify my vote. We were having a discussion, I was responding to you.

what kind of contributions do you expect from someone who hasn't really participated whatsoever? it just seems like an arbitrary goal post shift, i don't get how you can look at someone who only just started contributing and complain that they haven't contributed enough. the contributions will take time, i can't provide thoughts when i don't have any yet.

You are saying we can’t expect contributions from you because you haven’t really participated, but the problem is that you had actually been active, just not meaningfully contributing to finding scum.

[ProjEctRy]

I don’t like this idea. To me that is not the best move for town, just a random lim on a low contributor. I appreciate there is likely scum essentially hiding in the shadows but it’s a complete shot in the dark.

Surely it’s better to lim someone specific we have some suspicion over rather than just a complete random lim?

this feels at odds with his vote on me

VOTE: proj

i think his vote on you is because you pulled up and declared you wouldn't be doing much at all- while you were just inactive before now you're here but just saying you won't be contributing much

mmm but i don't understand what difference that makes. shitposting aside, i've very clearly indicated i want to start contributing at some point. idk

But why is this allowed? Just because you are like this all the time, why should you be allowed to shitpost early and contribute later. If you as a player get this ‘exemption’ then when playing scum it effectively gives you a pass. Your position would be, ‘well don’t read into my lack of contribution, I always do this’.

And you wouldn’t have to maintain that style the full game. Advancing past day 1 under this style would still be progress if you were scum.

[ProjEctRy]

Projectry, do you have any scum reads outside of Skygazer?

Yes I have, but they’re weak. They are:

T3 - I was initially suspicious of T3 as per my post at 76. At 113 I noted I was likely to place my vote on T3. I never got to that because I wanted to hear more from T3, but then he went VLA, so that thought was placed on hold.

Kurtapika - Peaked my interest with his town read on you at 60. By that point I didn’t feel the read was justified. See my posts 144 and 249.

Then I was concerned with his position regarding a purely random elimination of low contribution. See my posts 337 and 527. I’ve since distinguished the difference between this and my position with Sky.

Bella - I was suspicious of Bella ruling out Titus at 207. See my posts 251 and 364.

My suspicions are admittedly weak, but being new I’ve found it difficult to develop my reads. There has been a lot of content the past couple of days and I’ve found it difficult to analyse it all. Some of the analysis others make I just think I’m not capable of doing so myself at this stage. Then today I’ve been involved with Sky so I haven’t really been able to further analysis my other leads.

[ProjEctRy]

Isn’t fluff posts and not trying to solve the game exactly what you’ve been doing the majority of this game?

If that’s scummy then it applies to you too.

no. the difference is that i'm rather open about it, and your fluff is more of an "inflate my word count to look like i'm putting in effort" kind of thing to my eyes.

It isn’t about ‘inflating my word count to look like I’m putting in effort’. I’ve been directly responding to people. If I ignore everyone and don’t post that doesn’t help the game develop and you’d just complain I’m not answering you.

[ProjEctRy]

VOTE: project

I think this is just a random pressure vote to gauge a reaction, but if not please share your reasons.

I have a problem with this post and it's that instead of just asking me why I was voting you, you also prefaced it with this hypothesis that it was "just" a random pressure vote.

Your answer in 684 doesn't really help me feel better about it either.

It feels like this preface was added to appease or placate me in some way. Like, you guessed it was probably a random pressure vote but didn't want to seem like you were coming off as too defensive or too bothered by the vote and so added that in there so you could ask me about it without seeming too bothered by it.

But, I feel like if you were town who thought I'd thrown you a random pressure vote you would have either:

• Not bothered with acknowledging my post at all.
  
• Asked me why I voted you and waited to see if my answer matched up with your hypothesis.

The second option in particular would've satisfied your want to know if you're "identifying things correctly" AND might have let you figure out something about my alignment.

It's also kind of weird because I feel like that post comes from the point of view where you're assuming I'm town and have town intentions with a random pressure vote. But, I wouldn't necessarily assume that out of someone randomly voting me even if I did town read them before hand.

From my point of view too much is being read into that comment. It wasn’t made to avoid looking too defensive or bothered by the vote because I wasn’t bothered by the vote. I’m happy as town to be pressured, everyone should be a consideration. And I think I correctly guessed it was a vote to gauge my reaction. I don’t think you had suspicions about me prior to that post.

I also disagree that a town response should be ignore the vote. I think avoiding drawing attention to pressure placed upon you is a scummy thing to do not town. You should discuss the reasons and get a better understanding of people’s thought patterns.

[ProjEctRy]

Isn’t fluff posts and not trying to solve the game exactly what you’ve been doing the majority of this game?

If that’s scummy then it applies to you too.

But why is this allowed? Just because you are like this all the time, why should you be allowed to shitpost early and contribute later. If you as a player get this ‘exemption’ then when playing scum it effectively gives you a pass. Your position would be, ‘well don’t read into my lack of contribution, I always do this’.

And you wouldn’t have to maintain that style the full game. Advancing past day 1 under this style would still be progress if you were scum.

I also find Project's back and forth with Skygazer less focused on trying to determine Skygazer's alignment and more focused on winning the argument and also what should be considered fair.

I think the "why is this allowed" tone in the second post is very emblematic of the type of tone I see come from scum a lot of the time. It's kind of a reverse "caught for the wrong reasons" type of read. It's more like... this townie is doing something OBJECTIVELY scummy so they SHOULD be scum read for it.

I don't know. It doesn't feel like Projectry is super honestly engaging with Skygazer. I feel like at a minimum Projectry should recognize that this exact pattern of play probably isn't AI for Skygazer and start focusing on other elements of her play, but instead Projectry launches into how it like, shouldn't be allowed that Skygazer *gets* to play like this. I feel like that's a line of thought much more likely to come from scum who feels like a towny shouldn't be allowed to act so scummy and get away with it.

This post implies my suspicion is all about how it’s not fair Sky gets to play a certain way. That is disingenuous.
My initially suspicion was a result of her attitude. Her attitude and style were actively working against the towns agenda.

I also didn’t ‘launch’ into the fairness of it. I believe the ‘why isn’t this allowed’ or the why should she be ‘exempt’ from consideration because of her meta type posts were fairly recent posts, they weren’t the basis of my suspicion.

Also the ‘focused on winning the argument’ point. I think that would just show my inexperience rather than indicative of scum behaviour.

[ProjEctRy]

And I think I correctly guessed it was a vote to gauge my reaction. I don’t think you had suspicions about me prior to that post.

okay I guess my question is why you needed me to answer your guess before you found out why I voted you

like wouldn't it have been better to test MY answer first and see if it was what you were expecting? if I'd said I'd been actually been suspecting you all along you then you could compare that to your expectation of town!me and maybe catch me in a lie or doing something scummy

I wasn’t concerned about the vote and I wasn’t worried about the optics of my response so any negative connotations from that comment were meaningless to me.

Also, to the second paragraph, you’re giving me too much credit. This is my first ever game, I’m not thinking that many steps ahead.

[ProjEctRy]

So I’ve been doing some ISO on Titus and it’s certainly shifted me to towards a scum read or her.

Titus’s post history resolves almost exclusively around her theory of a scum team between Kurtapika and T3, however her reasoning is incredibly weak. Despite having peddled this theory from the beginning of the game to now, the theory essentially remains based around a ‘gut feeling’.

Her suspicion of Kurtapika arose out finding Kurt ‘awkward and distant’ 130. Whilst the distant could be justified based upon Kurtapika’s lack of contribution by that point, I don’t find anything awkward in Kurtapika’s 60. Titus hasn’t really relied upon much else in relation to Kurtapika aside from Kurtapika’s lack of interaction with T3 (although I question this itself below).

In regards to T3, Titus hasn’t provided any explanation whatsoever as to why T3 is scum aside from the fact that Kurtapika hasn’t mentioned T3. That is an incredibly weak basis to form this theory out of because 1. I believe there is several instances within this game where X player still hasn’t discussed X player. 2. By the point this theory arose at 544, Titus herself hadn’t discussed T3, so her theory is applicable to herself.

@Titus. Please can you elaborate upon why your theory has any merit and why you seemingly haven’t considered elsewhere.

I’m beginning to lean scum on Titus based upon the above. She has peddled a baseless theory all game long and appears to have tunnel vision. Her contribution is surface level and doesn’t seem to be contributing much to the towns agenda. However, I’m not 100% there yet as she does have some posts I consider townie.

However, as Titus is now V/la I’m going to leave my vote with Sky until Titus responds.

FYI - I can see Kurtapika is nearing lim. The above is about Titus’s views of Kurtapika. I haven’t really gotten around to reviewing everyone else’s opinion of Kurtapika.

[ProjEctRy]

Also @Titus, are you a lawyer/advocate/solicitor (not sure where you are from, terminology is different around the world). You referred to being busy prepping for a trial.

There is a reason why I ask but I want to hear your response first. Obviously that’s kinda personal so if you don’t want to reveal that it’s cool. Also, apologies if it’s inappropriate to ask about real world stuff. If someone could just let me know if it’s not to be asked.

[ProjEctRy]

what is your read on kurtapika, projectry

I’ll get back to you. I’ll do an ISO on Kurtapika next.

[ProjEctRy]

what is your read on kurtapika, projectry

I’ll get back to you. I’ll do an ISO on Kurtapika next.

Although I should have prefaced this with ‘it might take me some time’. My god did it take me ages to do an ISO on Titus haha

[ProjEctRy]

do you have any gut thoughts right now pre-doing an ISO?

or no real opinion on Kurta up until this point

I’m not really sure. There has been a couple of things he’s said which I’ve questioned.

I found his read (at that point) at 60 on you odd. See my posts at 144 and 249.

I also didn’t like his suggestion at 335 that the best move was to random lim someone purely for low contribution. See my posts 337 and 527.

Otherwise, even though he’s the hot topic I haven’t really thought about him much as I’ve been preoccupied with other discussion so will need to review him.

FYI the ISO on him will have to be tomorrow. I’m going to bed soon!

[ProjEctRy]

Her suspicion of Kurtapika arose out finding Kurt ‘awkward and distant’ 130. Whilst the distant could be justified based upon Kurtapika’s lack of contribution by that point, I don’t find anything awkward in Kurtapika’s 60. Titus hasn’t really relied upon much else in relation to Kurtapika aside from Kurtapika’s lack of interaction with T3 (although I question this itself below).

Just a quick correction. I stated I hadn’t found anything ‘awkward’ in Kurtapika’s post at 60. I don’t find the post ‘awkward’, but I did find the read on Dann odd, however Titus never really seemed to discuss that so I don’t think it formed part of her reasoning.

[ProjEctRy]

I don't think Titus is super town but I don't really think she's scummy either. Her tone/demeanor feels pretty relaxed in a good way imo. Her gut reactions/takes have seems pretty genuine and it seems like her posting hasn't really been geared towards trying to get town read, so I guess I slightly lean town on her?

I'm not saying don't vote her Jupiter but of your two scum reads I view shaddowez less favorably personally

Dann, whilst we’re on the topic of Titus. In your post above, what did you find genuine about Titus’s gut reactions / takes?

To me those gut reactions / takes were incredibly hollow. They have no real justification, so I struggle to find them genuine. They feel forced to me.

[ProjEctRy]

I haven't read the substance on your post but I saw this. I am an American lawyer and it very much fuels my thinking.

I was prepping my close. Jury will have the case soon.

VLA until Monday

I will make an effort to reply to the substance though.

The reason I asked was because as you’re a lawyer I’d expect you to be able to formulate concise and strong arguments. However, this is in stark contrast to your theory regarding Kurtapika or T3 (regardless of which way they flip) and gut feelings.

This does make me question your game to date, particularly given you state your profession fuels your thinking. It appears to me you’re playing against how I’d expect you to play based upon your comments.

[ProjEctRy]

Also, sepertse but related, both k and proj talk a lot about the negatives ,, the reasons to sr people, rather than questions/sorting? Playstyle, but I struggle

I don't understand the issue with this.

Firstly, what is the issue with talking about the negatives - the reasons to sr people? Isn't discussing the reasons to sr people scum hunting? The 'negatives' are what I don't like about peoples comments or actions. Genuinely, how do I determine who is scum without discussing the reasons why I think they're scum?

Secondly, I disagree that I do that instead of asking questions / sorting. I've asked a lot of questions (whether you believe the questions to be good or bad is a different matter). My questions generally are to other people - how did you reach this conclusion - why did you think this etc. Those questions assist my understanding of other peoples motivations, which helps me determine who I believe to be town or scum.

[ProjEctRy]

There are two major assumptions in your thinking.

1) All people are convinced in the same way. Maybe a case convinces you but others like to find the answers themselves. There is no universal convincing case.

2) Lawyers making a case is different here. However, I play more like a judge rather than a lawyer. I listen for the facts and make a ruling. Either a mod pronouncement or something radical is needed once a read is hard.

I used to play more like a stubborn advocate but that made me more heated and less effective. Sometimes I fall but I try not to.

Regardless of assumptions as to how people play, your own admission of your play style validates (in my mind) my concerns. You have played the exact opposite as to how you describe approaching the game.

I don't believe you are trying to 'find the answer' yourself. You have tunnelled the entire game based upon an unjustified theory. You've also explained that your profession 'fuels your thinking' and that you 'listen to the facts and make a ruling', however in my opinion this is not how you are playing. You theory of Kurtapika and T3 is based off of 'gut feelings' and lacks any justification. Listening to the facts and forming a judgement is in contradiction to theories supported by 'gut feeling'. If you are listening to the facts and making a ruling, you should be able to point to specific things that lead you to conclude they are scum.

As for my read on K, it would not be more substantial with more words. You could write a wall on my posts allegedly having no depth but the more words you use, the more you undermine.

My case on K is the same. It's about awkward speech and the absence of logical follow through with T3. I'll spoiler a longer case tmo for you.

As for T3 you will get more comfortable about reading teams when you play more. K is treating T3 like a partner and my secret read is treating K like I would if I was scum with K.

I think this is missing the point, it's not about 'more words'. Its about providing an actual explanation, outside of gut feelings, to support your theory.

In regards to K's 'awkward speech', I've not necessarily seen this myself, although as noted I'm planning to do an ISO on him to consider him further to see what, if anything, I'm missing. But, even so your suspicion of awkward speech was mentioned very early and I've not seen you point to further examples of this.

Regarding K allegedly treating T3 like a partner, yes I will get more experienced at identifying this as I play, but I don't think there is anything to this in this situation. Your concern would be applicable too many different players, including yourself.

Your response hasn't really satisfied my concerns. I need to go back and review my thoughts on Sky, then I'm going to decide whether I'm going to switch my vote.

[ProjEctRy]

Project, I said that I would spoiler a case today so of course my response wasn't a case.

My initial read was weak, however I played in the background just listening. My ruling is K + T3 plus a third. Could it be wrong? Of course, but I'd need a flip to change my mind. I'll deliberately be holding back by analysis on the third, even in my thinking.

No of course. Im busy tonight so I wasn’t going to be considering the game further until tomorrow so I was expecting you’d have responded by the time I went back to review my vote on Sky. I should have specified.

[ProjEctRy]

Sorry guys, busy weekend. Will aim to catch up tonight, but probably respond tomorrow.

[ProjEctRy]

i trust T3 actually

VOTE: Skygazer

Welcome Camel.

Can you elaborate?

[ProjEctRy]

I don't think Titus is super town but I don't really think she's scummy either. Her tone/demeanor feels pretty relaxed in a good way imo. Her gut reactions/takes have seems pretty genuine and it seems like her posting hasn't really been geared towards trying to get town read, so I guess I slightly lean town on her?

I'm not saying don't vote her Jupiter but of your two scum reads I view shaddowez less favorably personally

Dann, whilst we’re on the topic of Titus. In your post above, what did you find genuine about Titus’s gut reactions / takes?

To me those gut reactions / takes were incredibly hollow. They have no real justification, so I struggle to find them genuine. They feel forced to me.

@Dann - I can’t see that you answered this.

I know I’ve still yet to answer you about my position on Kurt. Still haven’t got around to that ISO.

[ProjEctRy]

Well I was in the middle of posting, but just seen Black hammered on herself.

Are you claiming either way?

[ProjEctRy]

What the fuck

don't like this reaction all that much

why not? i was reading and i scroleld down, saw her self-hammer and also said that out loud lol

I'm guessing performative is Sky's thought on that

yeah and like... my reaction to the hammer was not "what the fuck" but rather "fuck yeah!!!"

so another thing i'm getting at is that T3's reaction seems kind of too salty to come from town. but I could be wrong

I duno, I think this is stretching slightly. I’d say my reaction was WTF - Why did she hammer herself if scum.

If Black is scum does scum giving up and hammering themselves happen often?

[ProjEctRy]

i think t3 is town

Based upon his reaction now? Weren’t you not long ago leading a wagon on him?

[ProjEctRy]

Will pick back up tomorrow and review in more detail, particularly the Titus claim, but from a quick scan there’s a lot of speculation around me being Black’s scum partner.

Do people really think it’s more likely I’m Black’s partner rather than that I was likely pocketed (I think that’s the correct term)?

I realise now that Black was complementing me and overly defending me to pocket me. I’d presume it’s much easier / more common to pocket a newbie as well?

[ProjEctRy]

VOTE: T3.

That's E-1.

I've previously noted light suspicion for T3 (granted this was very weak and early - it got left behind after he was v/la and I became preoccupied elsewhere), but essentially I'm not opposed to the vote.

I also don't like his reaction lately. I've found it overly emotive. I'm conscious that others are reading this as town responding to pressure, but to me it's a bit over the top for town. I feel like scum have more to lose and his reaction feels desperate.

Regardless I think the case has already been made as to why strategically this is the best move for Day-2. Plus I don't know where else to put my vote at this point (I've got no confidence in my previous main scum reads).

[ProjEctRy]

@project

what was your read on Black yesterday?

It was a town read unfortunately.

I’ve previously mentioned that I was in the middle of typing a post when Black self-hammered. In that post I was going to say that whilst I was becoming conscious to the possibility that Black could be pocketing me I didn’t see the case against her so I wasn’t prepared to lim her.

I was clearly wrong on the town read. I was well and truly pocketed. That’s why I now have no confidence I my previous reads.

[ProjEctRy]

Dann why are you flipping your votes around?

I’ve questioned this myself. He is always vote switching, but I’ve been conflicted about it.

It feels overly excessive and feels like an attempt to throw votes around and see what traction he gets. On the other hand, if it’s not excessive (I don’t know his meta) then it’s just scumhunting. Plus I never raised my suspicions because I thought I was potentially just biased / influenced by the fact he was pushing me Day-1 and most people had him as a strong town read so I thought maybe I was wrong.

But I don’t like his back and forth on T3. He came off the vote, but now people are starting to look at him he jumps back on it and is all for the lim now.

However, my biggest issue with Dann is what OWER points out at 1593. If Dann is scum why does he start the Black wagon which leads to the hammer?

[ProjEctRy]

Also there has been a few times when Dann is questioned about things and he ignores them. My question at 863 and Afrayed’s at 1592 etc.

Maybe it isn’t AI that he ignores these, but I do find it odd. Everyone else seems to respond to direct questions.

Apologies if you have in fact answered these and I’ve missed the response.

[ProjEctRy]

Okay let’s get this fucking T3 elimination over with so we can either reevaluate or get on with ending this game

VOTE: T3

If it flips town im so right and you can all please sheep me tomorrow if im alive

If it flips scum uh this was totally all just a gambit or something

To me the bolded part above is very different tonally to everything else Dann has posted.

But, before I’d be prepared to vote Dann I’d need someone to explain a good reason as to why he would have switched the momentum towards Black which led to her lim. This is a major sticking point.

[ProjEctRy]

@Project, you realize that T3 has been limmed? And we are in Twilight.

He’s hasn’t. He’s E-1 isn’t he?

He only has 6 votes. You unvoted.

[ProjEctRy]

I was about to put Kurt to E-1, but beaten to it.

I assume nobody has objections for us to do this fast? We have room to manoeuvre if Titus is wrong.

I’ll lose signal soon, so someone may beat me to it.

[ProjEctRy]

Sorry guys, very busy atm, I’m the process of buying a new home so I’m a bit preoccupied.

I think analysing the T3 vote is a good way to locate scum going forward. Based upon this I’m going to VOTE: Afrayed Knott.

I didn’t like Afrayed’s behaviour around the T3 vote. Jumping on and off the wagon.

At 1341 Afrayed said if he was the JK then he would have targeted T3 or Shaddow, however he wasn’t voting either of these. Titus pulled him on this 1348 and he tried to defend it on the basis that logically he should have voted one of them, but his gut feeling said otherwise. I don’t particularly like this response. I think logic should take precedence. However, shortly thereafter he votes T3. To me this felt like he was pointing the finger at T3 to distance himself, but he only had to vote once pulled on it.

He then unvotes T3 and 1441 feels like Afrayed was doing a lot of work to dissuade people from T3.

There is then a weird exchange between Afrayed and T3. T3 casts suspicion against Afrayed. This is fairly light and not really pursued, but Afrayed’s response at 1491 feels a bit over the top in his response / defence. The exchange feels odd and I feel like it was maybe a distancing act between the two of them.

Afrayed further votes and unvotes T3 again. At 1612 he states he’s not happy with the T3 vote and states whilst he accepts it’s the best vote mechanically, he thinks we should vote someone else instead. To me that’s odd. Surely the best vote mechanically is still the best vote.

Finally at 1629 when T3 is E-1 he states he thinks T3 will flip town. This to me feels like he’s laying the groundwork to justify his innocence in advance of T3 being revealed scum.

[ProjEctRy]

At 1341 Afrayed said if he was the JK then he would have targeted T3 or Shaddow,

I was asked a question, read back maybe.

It makes no difference that this is in a response to a question. You still stated that was who you would have targeted, yet you weren’t voting either. The point still stands.

[ProjEctRy]

Sorry guys, very busy atm, I’m the process of buying a new home so I’m a bit preoccupied.

I think analysing the T3 vote is a good way to locate scum going forward. Based upon this I’m going to VOTE: Afrayed Knott.

I didn’t like Afrayed’s behaviour around the T3 vote. Jumping on and off the wagon.

At 1341 Afrayed said if he was the JK then he would have targeted T3 or Shaddow, however he wasn’t voting either of these. Titus pulled him on this 1348 and he tried to defend it on the basis that logically he should have voted one of them, but his gut feeling said otherwise. I don’t particularly like this response. I think logic should take precedence. However, shortly thereafter he votes T3. To me this felt like he was pointing the finger at T3 to distance himself, but he only had to vote once pulled on it.

He then unvotes T3 and 1441 feels like Afrayed was doing a lot of work to dissuade people from T3.

There is then a weird exchange between Afrayed and T3. T3 casts suspicion against Afrayed. This is fairly light and not really pursued, but Afrayed’s response at 1491 feels a bit over the top in his response / defence. The exchange feels odd and I feel like it was maybe a distancing act between the two of them.

Afrayed further votes and unvotes T3 again. At 1612 he states he’s not happy with the T3 vote and states whilst he accepts it’s the best vote mechanically, he thinks we should vote someone else instead. To me that’s odd. Surely the best vote mechanically is still the best vote.

Finally at 1629 when T3 is E-1 he states he thinks T3 will flip town. This to me feels like he’s laying the groundwork to justify his innocence in advance of T3 being revealed scum.

I love the work, but there are holes all over this, and counter arguments. And to be frank I am not even going to enter into this with you.

Lovely attitude.

[ProjEctRy]

Project over Jupiter, surely? Honestly I'd kind of be down to lim aisa just to get it out of the way, but I'm also tipsy.

Feeling lost but in regards to recent posts I town read this from Bella. If she was the last remaining scum she wouldn’t care whether it was me or Jupiter. There isn’t much need for scum to make such comment / question this.

I’m only really certain on Titus for obvious reasons. Dann I feel has to be town due to setting up the Black wagon, but there is just something about him I don’t trust. Otherwise, everyone else I’m largely unsure of. I’ve had suspicions of people, but they are never shared by other people so I lose confidence in them.

[ProjEctRy]

also like my old account on this site was yeezys so if you want you can read my only game on there where i was like 12 and

also had the most atrocious townplay known to mankind

Think I can give you a run for your money on that!

[ProjEctRy]

VOTE: Jupiter

Unfortunately, I understand the point being made regarding your posts being performative.

Your recent reactions feel massively blown out of proportion to the point it doesn’t feel legitimate. If you are town then apologies because you had then clearly taken this personally and I’ve now contributed to this, but no hard feelings.

[ProjEctRy]

Rereading and Ctrl+F through Black's ISO really just makes me want to lim Project more but there's a case for Bella and Aisa too, I think.

If you have other reasons to scum read me that’s fine, but I don’t see how you can think Black’s interactions with me were anything other than Black pocketing me.

This is my first ever game and I was ripe for the picking. She was overly complimentary of me and was clearly drawing me in.

If I was her scum partner, wouldn’t she avoid so overtly defending or supporting me? Surely that would be too risky of an association.

[ProjEctRy]

I'll do T3's ISO later but tbh

VOTE: Project

I still think this is the vote. I still think this is the last scum. I think Jupiter's interactions with Dann and AK today have been genuine, especially on page 82 and 83 I think Juptier's cluelessness is genuine and I just feel more confident about this than Aisa or anybody else. These past few days also feel like he's mostly just been coasting, and I think his Jupiter vote sucks.

I’d 100% agree I’ve been coasting. Again this is my first game and I’ve already mentioned that I’m struggling.

I’m struggling to formulate my own reads the longer the game goes on so I am relying upon other peoples reads and then considering whether I find them believable or not.

[ProjEctRy]

You're argument here also disproves itself; It's not "too risky of an association" because you and others have been making the argument that it's pocketing and not mafia being partnered. In addition, and I think the critical point here, is that if Black is pocketing you then the strategy she had with you is incredibly unclear. As far as I can tell from her ISO, she never tries to get you to vote with her, and you never built up the credibility nor the motivation/activity to be a voice in her defense.

I concede there's a chance she was pocketing you. I just think it's much more likely you two were partnered instead.

I don’t think the argument does disprove itself, because other people thought I was scum because of this association (just most now see it as me being pocketed).

Plus you are still trying to lim me largely based upon Black’s interactions with me. You presumably want this to gain traction, so if I was limmed largely based upon this reasoning, then if I was scum, then it would have been too risky of an association for Black.

[ProjEctRy]

So logically then we should stick with limming the JK target? I sort of see that now. And agree
I was blind to it before. It’s a U turn and I apologize to Titus for that.

Apologies if I’m being stupid here, but what is the logic behind this?

Titus hasn’t had a positive result yet, all have been null haven’t they?

So Titus’s targets haven’t actually concretely informed us of anything yet due to scum no killing. So why would we lim based upon this at this stage?

Or am I completely misunderstanding?

[ProjEctRy]

I'm trying to lim you for a variable smorgasbord of reasons, the Black interactions are just the biggest sticking point for me. Whose "other people" in this context? I've been basically the only one scum-reading you for a while now, as far I can tell. When people were scumreading you before me it was for your push on Skygazer.

You're also talking as if you can see inside Black's mind. How do you

know

that Black would've found it too risky an association? How do you know Black wasn't simply confident that she or T3, or even yourself could talk your way out of the assocation? How do you know that Black wasn't confident that her interactions with you wouldn't be seen as pocketing? How do you know if she simply just wasn't thinking about it that hard?

This is what I meant when I say that the argument of it "being too risky an association" disproves itself because you inherently have multiple outs to the situation, further compounded by the fact that your defense is predicated on attempting to dissect the thought process of a player who is no longer able to post in the game thread. It's not an argument for why you're not scum, it's just WIFOM.

I thought other people had raised this issue as well? I’ll need to go back and check if you don’t think that’s right.

But you’re right that I don’t know what went on in Black’s head and just because something is risky doesn’t mean nobody would do it.

I think the issue for me is that I now know that I was pocketed. I feel embarrassed by that, because I look back now and think it was so clearly obvious, so I struggle to understand anyone else thinking it was anything other than me being pocketed.

[ProjEctRy]

So logically then we should stick with limming the JK target? I sort of see that now. And agree
I was blind to it before. It’s a U turn and I apologize to Titus for that.

Apologies if I’m being stupid here, but what is the logic behind this?

Titus hasn’t had a positive result yet, all have been null haven’t they?

So Titus’s targets haven’t actually concretely informed us of anything yet due to scum no killing. So why would we lim based upon this at this stage?

Or am I completely misunderstanding?

How do we know that she wasn’t positive last night? Or do you know something we do not?

Seriously though I see the logic in it because it’s very much a roll of the dice made on her suspicions, don’t you feel the odds may well roll her way. But it was a question based on an earlier comment by I think Titus, that it is logical to lim
The JK target, more than a statement of fact.

We don’t know whether it’s been positive, but hasn’t it be thrown about that scum are purposefully not night killing. If we believe this is the tactic they are pursuing then Titus’s targets don’t reveal anything.

I wouldn’t necessarily say the odds are in our favour. She has targeted two people who turned out to be town.

I’m not necessarily sure either way, I’m more just trying to actually understanding the logic behind it.

[ProjEctRy]

Actually if it was positive would Titus not know? Does her result not say she was successful?

[ProjEctRy]

You are pretty much echoing what I have said above

I’m just getting confused now

I thought you were agreeing with OWER and saying it is logical or a good thing to lim the JK’s target. I’m saying so far that the JK’s target has given us nothing.

[ProjEctRy]

Actually if it was positive would Titus not know? Does her result not say she was successful?

No I don’t think so. That would make it an OP PR

Oh right, I thought she would know whether it was positive. Essentially that would be the reward for correctly jailing scum.

[ProjEctRy]

VOTE: Shaddowez

I hadn’t really paid much attention to Shaddowez, but just had a quick read through his ISO and I would be happy with a vote on him.

When he does contribute he tends to question or discredit other people’s town (not scum) reads. It feels like he’s trying to discredit town reads to keep people in contention.

The above isn’t necessarily scum indicative, rather it’s a good thing (at least early game when he did this a lot), but when looking at the flip side - when he tries to discredit or question people’s scum reads - they are largely in relation to defending or directing attention away from T3, who we now know to be scum.

So, it comes across like he wants to keep people in contention who he himself (if he is scum) knows are town, but discredit any suspicion against those he knows are scum etc.

Also, he does a lot of defending of T3 and only seems to question T3 when his fate is almost sealed. At 1063 he questions T3 (I believe this is the first time he questions T3 in a negative light). T3 actually survived this wagon, but Shaddowez questioning occurs when T3 is E-1 and hard claims VT. It looked like T3’s fate was sealed.

He interacts a bit more with Black, but doesn’t ever really cast suspicion. He then is the 6th vote on the Black wagon, but that was a fast forming wagon.

I think these interactions with scum could be suspicious and he only ever seems to turn against them when he believes their fates are sealed, so both feel like last minute distancing.

[ProjEctRy]

Play wise it's shadow or outer, buddy equity it's sky or Aisa. We shouldn't lim out of those four I think

‘Shouldn’t’ lim?

[ProjEctRy]

2239 is a repeat (or the predecessor, I guess?) to Aisa from my last post in regards to my interactions with Black and T3.

when he tries to discredit or question people’s scum reads - they are largely in relation to defending or directing attention away from T3, who we now know to be scum.

Other than my push on Jupiter, who I was SRing based on his initial play on T3, where was I doing what you're claiming I was doing?

Excluding any posts arising from your push of Jupiter, your posts at 55, 119, 192, 209 and 1539, can all be construed as attempting to question or undermine any scum reads on T3.

Granted you could have genuinely believed T3 was town and then those posts wouldn’t be an issue, but early game a lot of your focus seemed to be defending or trying to undermine any scumread on T3, which just isn’t sitting right with me.

[ProjEctRy]

Uuugh mixed read on projectry

For example, in post 880 I townread how confidently he asks Titus to provide "an actual explanation outside of gut feelings to support [her] theory". I think trying to read Titus based on her being a lawyer is a pretty reachy argument though

why would you townread that? i think reading people based on their occupation is strange and probably more towny than the confidence

I think this has been misinterpreted slightly.

I wasn’t reading Titus because she is a lawyer, rather Titus explained how she approaches the game and I believe she said her occupation fuels and shapes her thought pattern (something along those lines). However, I was pointing out that she was playing the exact opposite (going with gut feeling) of how she said she plays the game.

[ProjEctRy]

- ABSOLUTELY NOT willing to vote on OWER or dann

I don’t support a OWER lim myself, but your phrasing suggests you are strongly against this. Why such emphasis?

Apologies if you’ve already gone over this, if you could just point me to it instead.

[ProjEctRy]

Prod received. Sorry been busy.

I see we’re no further forward. Votes still spilt.

Not likely to be around tonight, but will try to be around tomorrow ahead of deadline.

[ProjEctRy]

We’re running out of time and I’m conscious whether people are going to be around as we get closer to the deadline.

Shiki - are you close to making a vote? I think you’re the last remaining unvote. If it’s still spilt by that point we can at least work out what needs to be done.

[ProjEctRy]

I’m here for the next hour.

Would prefer to stick with Shaddowez lim.

[ProjEctRy]

i set an alarm for 15 min before deadline so i'll be here

That’s dedication!

[ProjEctRy]

i set an alarm for 15 min before deadline so i'll be here

That’s dedication!

this:

why’s it more/most likely?

was meant to be @you, by the way

really an invitation to ramble at any length about either wagon/anything else here

I’m pursuing a Shaddowez lim based upon my reasoning at 2239. Tbh despite Aisa being the other competing wagon, I’ve not really looked into her. I appreciate that isn’t particularly helpful.

[ProjEctRy]

rolecall on willingness?

I don’t know whether a late pivot is a good idea.

If we think the last minute pivot target is the best / most likely to be scum, then obviously it’s the best decision. But, I think a last minute pivot would be rash. It would feel rushed and not thought out, so feels more likely to mis-fire.

[ProjEctRy]

It’s hard to keep up with Dann’s back and forth!

[ProjEctRy]

On the bright side, this day (maybe game) is finally over!

[ProjEctRy]

I agree that Dann grows more suspicious as each day goes by, even though it seems so outrageous. I think it’s building paranoia. But he isn’t the next vote!

[ProjEctRy]

I agree that Dann grows more suspicious as each day goes by, even though it seems so outrageous. I think it’s building paranoia. But he isn’t the next vote!

mm this could be a scum post tho

Why?

[ProjEctRy]

I agree that Dann grows more suspicious as each day goes by, even though it seems so outrageous. I think it’s building paranoia. But he isn’t the next vote!

mm this could be a scum post tho

Why?

tone felt off, despite me advocating for the scum-dann narrative, i think in the town-dann world that scum would really want the scum-dann narrative to take off.

Based upon that premises, if I was scum, wouldn’t I be pushing for this to take off now and not essentially saying let’s keep this suspicion in the back of our minds but not vote him out yet.

[ProjEctRy]

i'm going to try and use some of this weekend to dive back in and solve

one of the reasons i lurked so hard early on, and lurked through the last couple of day phases, is because i'm trying to harness the thing that makes replacements so townsided. i mean i naturally lurk a lot anyway so it made sense to try out. lurking and suddenly reappearing is sort of similar to a replacement, all of a sudden you has a new voice/new take on things, you can turn an elimmable slot into a townread slot, etc etc.

Hmm odd take to throw out there.

This simply reads like you are devising a strategy to ‘appear’ town.

[ProjEctRy]

so the fencesitting is scummier imo

Fair. But I still maintain the stance.

[ProjEctRy]

VOTE: Shaddowez

For the same reasoning as yesterday. I still think this is the best vote.

[ProjEctRy]

my reads list is like:

town
ower/jupiter
dann/bella
shaddow
project
scum

still wanna go with shaddow first tho

Huh? Why would you want to go Shaddow first if I’m your strongest scum read?

[ProjEctRy]

Well least today wasn’t as painfully long as day 5. Fingers crossed.

[ProjEctRy]

Hammer was yesterday, we’re just waiting on Schadd.

[ProjEctRy]

Are we sticking to the plan? Skygazer is E-1. Should I hammer or wait?

I see my name is being throw about. If it needs to be me to get us closer then so be it, but I’ve yet to be targeted by Titus so me next would be off plan.

[ProjEctRy]

Let the game begin I guess.

I’m trying to get my head around what that kill means in terms of the doctor, but not sure whether that is wise to say. Do we openly discuss or is it better to keep quiet about the doctor to not direct scum?

[ProjEctRy]

The questions I have arising from that kill relate to discussion of the doctor.

[ProjEctRy]

Is there anyone alive that has already been targeted by Titus? I don’t think there is, but need to check.

[ProjEctRy]

Surely the doctor didn’t move off of Titus. The only doctor claim we have was Afrayed (Shiki). Even though it wasn’t clear how serious that claim was, surely Titus wouldn’t risk Shiki as a target.

So if we believe Titus wouldn’t target Shiki, then Titus jailed someone else, who must have been the doctor, meaning Afrayed’s claim was false.

But what does that say about Shiki?

[ProjEctRy]

I’m not exactly sure. Still trying to work it out.

[ProjEctRy]

With a doctor claim, provided the claim is outside of the strong town pool, can we whittle it down (each in our own minds) to 4 town reads, leaving two suspects?

If we can collectively agree on two strong town reads (Dann and Shiki (agreeing with 3082). Then the doctor claims (this relies upon the doctor not being Shiki or Dann), that takes it to 3 strong town. Then every other town individual knows they are the 4th town, which leaves two possibilities.

Then we just focus votes on the final two.

Is that something that works or helps, or is it too risky to reveal the doctor?

[ProjEctRy]

Actually don’t think that works.

[ProjEctRy]

Do we think scum has been purposely no-killing or more likely they have been repeatedly targeting Titus, but Titus has been protected?

[ProjEctRy]

With a doctor claim, provided the claim is outside of the strong town pool, can we whittle it down (each in our own minds) to 4 town reads, leaving two suspects?

If we can collectively agree on two strong town reads (Dann and Shiki (agreeing with 3082). Then the doctor claims (this relies upon the doctor not being Shiki or Dann), that takes it to 3 strong town. Then every other town individual knows they are the 4th town, which leaves two possibilities.

Then we just focus votes on the final two.

Is that something that works or helps, or is it too risky to reveal the doctor?

Bro just legit regurgitated everything I said in 3077

Tbh because you post regarding doctor claim was separated from 3077, I didn’t even notice we’re saying the same thing. I think that tells you your read on me is wrong.

I think it’s fairly obvious I’m struggling to keep up or understand what’s going on here. I’m clearly not the mastermind behind all of this.

[ProjEctRy]

who do either of you think might be the doctor if not me and why

I don’t know who the doctor is. I’m not sure how you would work out who the doctor is?

[ProjEctRy]

Well I guess what I’m getting at is do people believe scum’s strategy has been smart or not?

If people do believe it’s a smart play, then I’d ask do you think it is likely that someone could pull this strategy off in their first ever game?

[ProjEctRy]

who do either of you think might be the doctor if not me and why

I don’t know who the doctor is. I’m not sure how you would work out who the doctor is?

well perspective things

hmm did you at no point before today think about it?

Do you mean do I think anyone has hinted at it? I feel like I’m being stupid, but otherwise I don’t know how you suspect someone is the doctor or not?

[ProjEctRy]

who do either of you think might be the doctor if not me and why

I don’t know who the doctor is. I’m not sure how you would work out who the doctor is?

well perspective things

hmm did you at no point before today think about it?

Do you mean do I think anyone has hinted at it? I feel like I’m being stupid, but otherwise I don’t know how you suspect someone is the doctor or not?

well i think multiple living players have basically said ‘i am not the doctor’

Who / where have they said this?

[ProjEctRy]

both bella and jupiter were basically like "kill me" yesterday

Oh is that what you mean. Well I can see now that this helps narrow down who the doctor is. The doctor wouldn’t offer up themselves to be killed so doctor isn’t one of them etc.

But, I never registered this. It’s my first game, I’m not as experienced. Or maybe I’m just fucking stupid.

[ProjEctRy]

Prodge - hopefully respond properly tonight.

[ProjEctRy]

It's a combination of thinking the others in my lim pool are just townier than him (I mostly disagree with you about Jupiter, for example), some specific stuff I highlighted during D2 that I can't be arsed to grab the post for, and the fact that nothing he has posted since has ever dissuaded me from the tunnel. I think he slots in nicely to a lot of theories (the "concede with upside" theory that Shiki posted, for example) and just in general his posts, even today, really give me only the bare minimum impression of "solving", and even the content he has posted today is regurgitated from what I said, and I think Shiki also said it was a repeat of something she was saying earlier too.

I don’t dispute my lack of contribution the past few days, but I think I’ve already said this is because I’m pretty lost.

I openly admit that I rely heavily upon other people to do the investigating. I’m struggling to do it myself so I try to look at what people are saying and then decide myself whether I agree with it or not. I appreciate that can look suspicious, but it’s just unfortunately the position I’m in.

There has also been a lot of meta discussion lately and because of my lack of experience I’m struggling to really to contribute to that.

[ProjEctRy]

and even the content he has posted today is regurgitated from what I said,

why do you think projectry's opening of today posts are more likely to have been scums reworking your posts rather than a mindmeld type of situation?

will look at this more tonight when i get a chance but to me i guess at the time it did not feel like projectry was copying your homework

Honestly, it was just a ‘mindmeld’. I just didn’t register in the moment that OWER had already said that.

[ProjEctRy]

Haven’t had as much time as I hoped tonight. I’m going to pick back up tomorrow. Going to work through where I stand on people and place my vote.

[ProjEctRy]

Is it a good idea for everyone to commit to two people they don't want limmed and find a consensus? It barrows down scum's options for elo too.

Yes, I think we should do this. I’d remove Dann and Shiki from the possible lim pool.

Dann - logically it’s not him based upon the Black wagon.

Shiki - Don't actually believe she is the doctor, but accept her point about it being a doomed claim by Afrayed if scum. Plus I feel she has been the most active player trying to advance the game and scum hunt. Given the state of the game, I think if she was scum she doesn’t need to help the game along, she’d just sit back, especially given she’s largely been in the clear (there is no need to put herself out there).

[ProjEctRy]

why don't you believe shiki is the doctor?

I think Titus was killed because she targeted the doctor yesterday and I don’t think Titus would have risked targeting Shiki when we had the Afrayed doctor claim.

[ProjEctRy]

re: Bella's idea about picking people to exclude from the lim pool. I don't really know why this is supposed to help. Scum (or anyone really) can just change their minds at any point.

I assumed it was more from the angle that the game is sluggish. We are struggling to advance so let’s systematically narrow down the possible lim pool to help move us forward.

[ProjEctRy]

VOTE: OWER

That’s E-1.

I’m going off of a process of elimination. I’ve previously said I’m against a Dann or Shiki (now tired person) lim. Bella I don’t really have a read either way.

I was between OWER and Jupiter, but based off of recent posts I’ve moved away from Jupiter.

That leaves OWER.

[ProjEctRy]

I think the main thing I don’t love from Project is how many times he’s pulled the newbie card in his ISO to argue why he can’t be scum or to hedge on his reads

I accept me being a newbie doesn’t rule me out being scum, I think I’ve just meant it in a way that it explains a lot of my actions (or lack of actions). But I appreciate that can be frustrating to others.

[ProjEctRy]

I think the main thing I don’t love from Project is how many times he’s pulled the newbie card in his ISO to argue why he can’t be scum or to hedge on his reads

I accept me being a newbie doesn’t rule me out being scum, I think I’ve just meant it in a way that it explains a lot of my actions (or lack of actions). But I appreciate that can be frustrating to others.

it's really not a good defense and it feels like you're taking the easy pass out tbh

I know you’ve said you intended to phrase this differently, but what I would say to the original post is that it’s not supposed to be a ‘good’ defence.

I’m not trying to hide anything, it was just a explanation for my lack of contribution.

[ProjEctRy]

outworlder, can you please summarize your scumcase on projectry?

I feel I've been asked this 100 times this game lol

I think his posts both around the Black elim (1112) and his T3 vote were bad (1555), and of the living players his T3 vote is easily the worst on that wagon. His Jupiter vote after previously noting no suspicion for that slot at all I think is terrible and reeks of opportunism. And for the rest of the time in his ISO he's just coasting by and pulling the newbie card for why he isn't trying to solve. It feels less like he wants to solve and isn't able to like, like how I feel about Jupiter, it doesn't feel like he's making the attempt. He very clearly has reads of some kind (his reads on Dann and your slot, for example), but refuses to try and sort them in his head to arrive at any sort of stance he might have to commit to, and his responses to people calling him out on this are overly diplomatic and appeal-y.

What was ‘bad’ about my post 1112? I had been in the middle of typing my post and when you preview it showed Black had post hammering herself. You can see it’s minutes apart.

There is no point me going back over the newbie card issue, everyone is sick of that already, but in regards to being overly diplomatic and appeal-y, I’m not acting that way for the optics, rather I agree with peoples issue over the newbie card - so there is know defence to be made.

[ProjEctRy]

In regards to a lack of scum hunting the past few days, aside from lacking experience which we’ve been over, I’ve also just struggled with time. I previously mentioned I’m the process of buying a new home and soon to be moving in. So I haven’t really had the time to re-read peoples ISO. When I’m not working I’m dealing with house stuff.

I probably should have replaced out a while ago, but I don’t want to bail on my first game.

[ProjEctRy]

1112 feels like you wanted to get town cred post-hammer without TMIing that you knew Black was going to flip scum. That you had never really indicated any kind of position on Black beforehand makes it suspicious to me.

I'm not just referring to your defense around the newbie card, I'm talking about every time you've defended yourself, especially from me. Someone's been on your ass since D2 for what you seem to believe are bunk reasons, yet you don't even seem to show a hint of frustration, which seems especially odd given other newbies I've played with and even taking the example of Jupiter in this game. If your last scum though, the whole laying down and taking it, as what you've essentially done, makes a lot more sense.

The post that 1112 would have been wasn’t about town-cred, as I wasn’t actually going to vote Black. I didn’t suspect that Black was scum. I got that wrong.

I regards to frustration, I guess that’s just my personality. I try to remember it’s just a game. Although I’m not immune to frustration and I think my frustration showed in situation with Skygazer (day-1 I think) where I was clearly frustrated with Sky’s behaviour.

[ProjEctRy]

Further on the topic of frustration, I guess what helps with the lack of frustration is that I’m not the last remaining scum. This isn’t all resting on my shoulders.

[ProjEctRy]

Claiming VT.

Sorry I haven’t contributed enough. It really is for the reasons I’ve said, I’m not scum purposely avoiding committing.

[ProjEctRy]

it's not the worst if we no-lim i guess but i'd prefer a project lim even if he's town here just because i think he's going to be a distraction for town in endgame if he is (sorry project)

I can self hammer if this view is collectively held.

For everyone else currently around - do yous want a no-lim or does liming me (although town) help move yous further forward?

[ProjEctRy]

i mean flashwagon me if you want idc VOTE: jupiter
i know sure as hell that if project isnt scum i do NOT wanna go to elo

just vote Project please. I don't feel like no-elimming here, I want to know Project's alignment, not sure TP can be convinced to vote you, and we still have to sort Bella.

I think Project's hedginess around self-hammering also feels scummy still so

You’ve just got it out for me man.

[ProjEctRy]

VOTE: ProjEctRy

Sorry I didn’t play better. Good luck guys.