Imperial Intrigue (Endgame, OUT OF NOWHERE)

[Magua]

Man, I *love* SleepyKrew already.

David is definitely scum.

VOTE: David Xanatos

[Magua]

Post #20 should read "ARE town". Thank you kdowns.

He would only do it under a strict "no trolling" policy, and that's not how I roll.

David is scum.

kdowns is town.

tclawren is in a gray category. I'm *very* curious about:

NOW TAKE A LOOK UP AT THE PROVIDED VT PM AND GIVE ME A GOOD FUCKING REASON WHY WE SHOULDN'T LYNCH YOUR

FAIL 3RD PARTY ASS.

@tclawren:

Why did you write 3rd party instead of scum?

[Magua]

I was in such a hurry to share my wonderful insight with you.

For this simple fact, though I admit to skimming my Role PM apart from the relevant role and my flavour, I cannot be Scum.

While this part is fine, and yes you claimed Argelev immediately, etc, *I'm* voting you because you said this:

Please tell me that's a fake daykill.

If it isn't, congrats, you just became today's lynch I think..

Indicating you did not believe the daykill would end the Day, but you then followed it up with this:

Because you're taking a Day-Shot that may, depending on mechanics, end the day.

[Magua]

David, it's like this.

I'm not saying a dayvig in one's opening post is a good idea. It's not, whatever Sleepy says.

But your reaction to it is incredibly scummy. It reads *exactly* as "He dayvigged someone who's not on my team, so I know they're going to flip town. I can use that to lynch him."

It does not read as someone who thinks dayvigging is going to end the Day, as you later claim was your problem with it. And if you were town and thought the dayvig was real, you may as well wait for the flip and take it from there, because even an entirely random vig is going to be right 25-33% of the time.

So from your reaction I have that you're scum, that Otolia is town, and that Sleepy is town.

Noone else claim Loyalist. For the love of god stop.. claim House, not Loyalist, Loyalist is a VT claim.

This is false. Die nao pl0x.

[Magua]

David is scum.
David dies.

[Magua]

David is scum. His entire reaction to the SK kill is bad. His reaction to everything since then has been bad.

Otolia is town. He's obviously misreading SK's gambit and taking it personally, which he shouldn't be doing. Don't know about past history between SK/Otolia, don't really care.

kdowns is obvtown.

SK is nullish. I liked his gambit and all, but since then it's just been poking people and no reads.

JDGA is meh. "I'd like a votecount" after four pages; if you cared enough you'd count them yourself, it's not like there's been a lot of them.

hmm that was a quick claim dude. That's kinda where I'm going with all this.

Do you think he's lying about being a one-shot vig?

[Magua]

Why are you asking me this if you think he's obvtown?

I ask you questions to determine your alignment, not his.

Magua > Care to explain how exactly?

You'll have to be more specific.

And Magua, considering that SK's opening post was a fake daykill on someone just because he had a vendetta against them, I don't really see how you could apparently have "liked him already." I don't think I like your reads, period.

Which ones do you disagree with, exactly? Feel free to say "all of them" if you wish.

@Magua : I understand what SK tried to achievedand playing on the flavor when people haven't been introduced completely to the game is something I dissaprove of, but that's just me and it has nothing to do with alignment more with my personal enjoyment of a mafia game. On the other hand, SK did use allegedly a DayKill ability in his first post for (more than likely) out of the game reasons, it's normal that I take it personally since I was targeted.

If it was a real daykill, you'd have a legitimate grievance. It pretty much obviously wasn't a real daykill when he did it, and now that the mod has posted a votecount, it's confirmed not a real daykill.

The key point now is : Is House Argelev among us or is House Argelev an outside House that the townies have to protect by eliminating all threats to them ? Or is House Argelev many people who try to struggle for power while the Loyalists try to protect them all ? Answering this question should give us our first lynch of the game.

House Argelev is the town. I thought this was kind of obvious from the flavor and setup of the game, but whatevs. I suspect that a mass-House claim isn't going to be terribly useful to the Town, because the scum will be "traitors" within the Houses, maybe with some specific House goals to represent vendettas or something.

[Magua]

Can you please play along. I have something in mind and since you consider me as town, you have no reasons not to state your House Name and any kind of flavor that does not reveal your role.

You being town and you being correct are two *wildly* different concepts.

Magua > Given that SK and Otolia have/had an issue that actually arose in the signup thread, it was perfectly reasonable in my eyes that, had he drawn the role, he'd do something like that to spite Otolia. I fail to see how my reaction to the potential waste of what could have been one of our strongest assets is bad.

I've already stated the reasons that I don't think your reaction was town. Flipflop on the your reaction of the kill ending the day or not, along with the outright "you just became today's lynch" rather than waiting to see what Otolia's flip was going to be.

2) I didn't see any reason to believe that SK's fakekill wasn't a real daykill at the time.

# of "Daykill: X" posts I have seen in, oh, the first 5 pages of a game: 6
# of *real* daykills I have seen in the first 5 pages of a game: 0

Now, given that your join date is 2007, my counterquestion to you is, "Why did you think it *was* real daykill?"

1) So your reads on David and Otolia don't really make sense, as it wasn't obvious at all that the daykill was a fake. SK's gambit wasn't exactly a gambit so much as just stupid, and obviously I disagree with your read on me due to the fact that I said I was going to make a votecount for myself.

I have no read on you. I found what you said to be odd. See also: tclawren calling SK third party.

3) Why are you so certain that the scum are traitors as opposed to a separate House altogether? It's not that difficult for them to lie about which House they are v_v

I'm not certain, hence usage of the word "suspect."

When you recall that scum can daytalk, and your apparent knowledge of "obvious" information that wasn't obvious at all (see points 2 and 3), I'm starting to very strongly doubt your alignment. My vote stays, however, as you're much less likely to be scum if SK isn't also scum.

Loyalist meaning town is obvious. Find someone other than David Xanatos who doesn't think it is. As for your calling my setup suspicions scummy, that's fine; you assuming SK's daykill was real until proven otherwise with a 2007 join date is scummy in return.

[Magua]

You have said these things, yes.

[Magua]

I quite fucking seriously do not get why any of you are voting SleepyKrew, if only because he took us straight out of the RVS right on the first page.

Is he annoying? Yes.

Is he grating? Yes.

Do his commands get on your nerves? Yes.

Does any of this make him scum? No.

Seriously.

Just because this is D1 in a Large Theme doesn't mean that you can stop looking for "scummy" and just vote for "irritating." Town are vastly more likely to be irritating and provocative than scum because scum don't want to draw attention to themselves.

[Magua]

how about another adjective: lying

Scum lie to achieve an objective -- either getting keeping themselves from being lynched or getting someone else lynched. SleepyKrew lied in his opening posts, but there's no scum motivation behind the lie.

[Magua]

Break this down. David is not a town PR because he thought Loyalist was a VT. David is not a VT because his role is not Loyalist.

David's role does not contain the word "Loyalist" in it at all.

David is not town.

[Magua]

Unless you didn't read gandalf's posts at all, I don't see why you would say that.

You mean gandalf's post where he says Loyalist and House Argalev are interchangeable? Even leaving aside that this is gandalf we're talking about, I do not believe that there is anyone aligned with the town who does not have "Loyalist" in their role.

@SleepyKrew:

if you're really a dayvig and you didn't dayvig David WHILE AT THE SAME TIME AGREEING WITH ME THAT HE IS SCUM you and I are going to have *serious* words.

[Magua]

Magua, David will get lynched, whereas Samantha has no suspicion on her. 2for1.

Your reasons for suspecting Samantha of being scum are about on the same level as Samantha's for suspecting you. Seriously. Read her in Sims mafia. Being obstinate is not a scumtell for her.

[Magua]

Serious.
Words.

Also, no, soda is more likely town than scum.

[Magua]

Empking is scum.

One-shot daykill scum keeps it for a claimed power role, not says, "Hey everyone, watch me kill this guy." Empking knows this.

[Magua]

To whom?

[Magua]

Sleepy, you've been defending him most of this day when ever someone is building a case against him

The problem isn't that people have been attacking Sleepy, the problem is that the cases on him have been unilaterally crap.

1. I have never seen this.
2. We were both in Ooba's game and saw the dayvig confirm themselves rather than shooting a PR.

So in your world, about-to-be-lynched-SleepyKrew-scum uses up his dayvig because lolswhynot...and doesn't shoot the claimed vigilante? Doesn't shoot an experienced player not on his team like you or StrangerCoug, but shoots samantha?

Mmmm. No.

Espeonage in ASoIaF's play was also incredibly horribly bad (not just his dayvig play), which is part of the reason he, y'know, lost.

[Magua]

So yourt argument is essentially that SK is so much superior to Espionage + AGM that he couldn't possibly do the same tactic? Sorry, I don't buy that at all.

FOS: Magua

As it happens on sleeping on it I can't evenm remember why I went on SK.

So...

Unvote, Vote: DX

So your argument is that I'm so goddamn suspicious that you'll admit that your vote on SK was bad and then vote who I want you to vote?

Bravo, sir.

Want Monk to confirm the masonry.

[Magua]

UNVOTE: David Xanatos
VOTE: tclawren

Are you playing to your WinCon ? I am legitimately doubting that with that post.

How do you think he's *not* playing to his wincon?

[Magua]

Magua. Get back on David.

Nah. I don't like David's play. However...

While scum do claim mason, it's much more of a D3 or D4 thing. Especially given the flavor of the game -- lots of intrigues and vendettas and the like revolving around multiple heirs -- I'm certain that there are other players who will feel the need to kill David, so I see zero reason to lynch him. The claim is early, and I don't see scum motivation to put a target on their back saying "Hey, if you're an aspiring heir to the throne, you need to knock me off!"

Much prefer my current tclawren vote.
I'm also up for voting Empking.

Soda, AGar, and Nero Cain are townreads.

[Magua]

How is Soda a townread after the last few pages?
Also, you were voting him quite a while after his claim...
Don't do this to me Magua, please don't...

I believe that I've outlined my thought processes to you enough in other games that you should be able to follow them here.

And I moved my vote once monk confirmed the claim. I'm not interested in moving it back.

[Magua]

HEY.

GUYS.

WE ESTABLISHED ON PAGE 2 OR SOMETHING THAT DAVID IS NOT A LOYALIST.

ALL OF THE POINTLESS MINUTIAE LIKE WHETHER YOU WERE AT L-1 OR L-2 OR WHETHER ROLES CAN BE GROUPS OR SHIT LIKE THAT IS GODDAMN POINTLESS BECAUSE SCUM WILL CLAIM THEIR FAKECLAIM.

CAN WE GET AROUND TO ACTUALLY, Y'KNOW, SCUMHUNTING?

Srsly.

(Yes, Sleepy, I know exactly where you're going with the RVS question. Let it go. Bring it up again like D4 or something if you're still alive (protip: you won't be) and David's still alive (protip: he won't be))

[Magua]

Magua, when you say I won't be around, do you mean lynched or killed?

Yes.

These votes for monk are just incredibad. Vezok has a certain tendency to be incredibad. Empking does not.

UNVOTE: tclawren
VOTE: Empking

MacDougall, why in God's name are you voting no lynch?

[Magua]

Objection Redux is the classical example, where vezokpiraka as a town PR didn't submit an action N1 and N3, and targetted (as a Neighborizer) people who were going to die every other Night.

[Magua]

A Storm of Swords, scum dayvig hasdgfas announces he's a dayvig, solicits input on who to shoot, shoots scum partner, rides town cred to victory

Last Will II, scum dayvig kunkstar holds onto dayvig until he's about to be lynched, then shoots the towniest person left

And, before you bring up ASOIAF again, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Espeonage solicited input for towncred, and was at least trying to shoot mafia.

kunkstar's play is much more common for scum dayvig, though.

[Magua]

I'm really curious who you think that is.

[Magua]

@SleepyKrew:

Yes, I can answer "Yes" to an either/or question. In fact, I did.

@Empking:

Hi. Now, mod complaining about the flavor aside (since the mod is in fact reinforcing what I've already been saying), when you were going on about the ports, did you believe that scum have no fakeclaims in this game? Or did you believe that scum were too stupid to use fakeclaims provided to them?

@MacDougall:

Still curious about your No Lynch vote.

[Magua]

Reading these vote counts with all the strikethroughts is a real chore, because they copy/paste unformatted for me.

Gandalf may have been a vig-shot, which would be sigh.
SleepyKrew is definitely a scum kill.
JDGA can be either.

Still not lynching David Xanatos or monk.

Otolia is probably not in Empking's faction.

VOTE: PeregrineV

Nothing that he's done or said (which isn't a lot) has seemed town-motivated.

[Magua]

Given that his name is flipped in red, I'd say chances are very high that StrangerCoug was mafia and not third party. Going by the flavor with their lynches, StrangerCoug was part of the "rebellion in the North" mafia and Empking was part of the "rebellion in the East" mafia.

Xanatos came from the west. I imagine that there's someone/something interesting from the south, though I don't think it's a killing faction because those numbers don't add up.

kdowns is town from D1.
Otolia is town from D1.

Of those who remain:
I'm suspicious of those who jumped onto StrangerCoug's lynch D2 while going, "lolcopreport": MacDougall (especially with #809 and #812), PeregrineV, Agar, Nero Cain (especially with #843), EtherealCookie. There be bussers in them thar hills. Money is on PeregrineV and Agar.

Soda curiously posts right at that time but doesn't mention Shinki or StrangerCoug at all, but FoS'es MattP.

manho's #864 "I see SC is at L-1 why can't anyone see this cop is fake?" just reads so incredibly bad town (but still town). MacDougall's "if SC flips town I'm going to come eat you" in #866 also seems very town for the same reasons.

So:
manho is town.
Macdougall is town.

AGar is scum.
Peregrine is scum.

MattP is scummy, but he's scummy in a newbie sort of way that makes me want to keep him around because if he's stupid newbie town he should live and if he's stupid newbie scum he'll lead us to his partners.

Everyone else is just this incredibly bland ball of null for me.

VOTE: AGar

[Magua]

Oh and lolmaguausobadatthissticktobeingdaysk.

Ok.

Daykill: AGar

Before you die, kindly explain where you see PeregrineV as town, because I'm not seeing it, whereas I am seeing MacDougall town. Especially in light of your (correct) vezokpiraka-playing-as-VI-does-not-imply mafia, but you don't apply that same standard to MacDougall even though it's obvious you should.

@PeregrineV:

Why do you quote the setup speculation out ofmy post where I call you scum, but not respond to the part where I actually call you scum?

@mbstoken:

You say you've played with MattP before. If these games have completed, can you link them please?

MacDougall lynch is terribad and needs to stop. He's one of the few players in this game who's actively and consistently actually giving a shit about what's going on. He's newb and his way of phrasing things is newb, but he's so

sincere

.

[Magua]

Here you think I'm bussing Stranger, but not sure what a "lolcopreport" is. I did vote Stranger for the cop result, but think that was pretty evident.
Otherwise, you don't say why you think I'm scum, just that you think I am with AGar.

"lolcopreport" is the mafia response when a cop puts a guilty on their partner and they don't think they can discredit the cop. Once the wagon on their partner is halfway built, they figure that their partner is toast anyways, and jump on for the town cred. Usually with either no comment, or with a one line comment about following the cop. Hence, "lolcopreport."

Peregrine seems to be putting honest effort in. Peregrine is putting out logical thoughts that are easy to follow. This is one of the biggest town-tells out there - you can follow from Point A to Point B what they're thinking and why.

I have played with Peregrine (and modded Peregrine) a bit, and I do not see "logical thoughts that are easy to follow" from Peregrine even when I know he's town. I judge Peregrine on his actions, and his actions here have been so-so at best.

Show me where you see his logical thought progression, please, since I'm not seeing it.

MacDougall as VI? I'm afraid you're confusing caught rookie scum with VI. VI isn't something you establish after one game. You know this. You don't just say "Oh wow, this guy is bad, he's a VI." Vezok plays in a similar manner every single game. If you don't know how to handle VI players by now, that's pretty bad. It's the same for all of them - unless they are acting outrightly scummy in a way that is different from their normal, subpar play, you leave them be and force scum to handle them or let them lead you to their scumbuddies - because they will be apparent after a period of time.

Where the bloody hell does this come from? "You can't get a read on someone's playstyle from *this* game, you have to have a lot of games. Screw reads! Solid empirical evidence only!" No. MacDougall votes no lynch D1 in #444. Why do this?

Closest mod count is #421: SleepyKrew (town) and David Xanatos (town) are both at 5 votes, no one else is above 1. Macdougall ends up hammering Empking. So you're saying he's scum who's scared of being on a town wagon, so he votes NL, and then turns around and decides to hammer either his partner, or someone he would have every right to believe is just as much town as the wagons he was avoiding earlier?

Where's the rookie scum motivation in that?

@Magua : What was that fake DayKill ? Did you have a particular objective when you did that, was it realized ?

It was a joke, a joke based on AGar's post that I quoted right up above it about me being the Day serial killer from a previous game.

Otolia is probably town. MacDougall is probably town. I will lynch vezokpiraka or MattP (in that order) before either of those.

[Magua]

The last point makes no sense: hammers his partner (loltowncred?) or "someone he would have every right to believe is just as much town as the wagons he was avoiding earlier" - he knows who is town and who isn't

Not if it's a multiscum game he doesn't.

The point was, why vote no lynch? Your theory is (I assume) that he's rookie scum who voted no lynch to avoid being on a town lynch wagon. But that doesn't work because he hammered on Empking. So the question is, did he hammer on Empking because he's Empking's partner? That's not something that rookie scum would ever do. Did he hammer on Empking because he wanted to lynch someone on his team? If so, why do you think he was voting no lynch earlier?

...Also, what about Soda? Thoughts there?

Soda's meh. I would certainly take his lynch above Otolia or MacDougall, but he's not a top suspect at the moment.

[Magua]

Why did you mention Otolia here? I haven't noticed anybody suggesting Otolia is guilty at all?

Both vezokpiraka and Peregrine are voting Otolia. These are bad votes.

Rookie scum don't bus? Since when? He also hammered Emp after significant push had been made on the Emp wagon, whereas when he unvotes SK, the only wagons are DX and SK, who both had multiple people claiming them as town. Do you not see why a rookie scum - on Emp's team or not - would unvote in that situation?

No, rookie scum do not bus unless they're forced. They're very averse to it, which is one of the things that makes it easy to pick them out.

Rookie scum who would unvote SleepyKrew-who-is-not-on-his-team would not vote Empking-who-is-not-on-his-team, for the same reasoning. I can maybe see this happening if the alternative was a partner being lynched, but that's definitively not the case here.
And I'm very confident that rookie scum would not hammer their partner D1 in a Large game.

@PeregrineV:

Less IIoA. What does that votecount tell you?

[Magua]

Also, if I recall correctly, MacDougall was pretty well forced to hammer Emp.

Show me where this was the case. Show me where he was even mentioned in regards to Empking.

[Magua]

@Magua- So do you disagree with Vezok's argument? Or do you find it invalid? If so, why?

Disagree. I find it much more likely that scum slip with inside information than they are to try to make statements that are obviously false like "Empking was third party."

Also, I think Otolia is town specifically from his D1 play.

For example, you were voting tclawren at some point, but unvoted him. Meanwhile, tclawren voted Sleepy and DavidX, but never EmpKing.

Was your vote RVS, or something else?
Did tclawren mention EmpKing?
Did EmpKing mention tclawren?
Anything relating to tclawren and Stranger?
Where did tclawren vote day2?

Ok, the first question is "Son I am disappoint" because you could've easily looked it up. I voted tclawren because I became sure that my earlier vote (David Xanatos) was town, and tclawren was next on my list for his "3rd party" remark that he had made to SleepyKrew -- it seemed very much like slotting SK as 3rd party rather than scum was a scumslip.

So is this your way of saying mbstokem is scummy? It seems odd that you would present these as deep questions to be answered when tclawren has like 9 posts and mbstokem has 1.

[Magua]

tclawren read like a scumslip because he attacks SK for not being town by calling him "third party", as opposed to "scum." This reads as a scumslip because it implies that tclawren knows that SleepyKrew was not scum, which implies tclawren is.

Otolia, on the other hand, says that Empking was third party. This seems pretty obviously false, not only from flavor, but also from Empking being a Rolecop which really only makes sense for a faction as opposed to an individual. Unlike what tclawren did, this doesn't look like it betrays inside information. That's the difference.

[Magua]

I said that StrangerCoug was third party. You should revise your position ><

I should revise my position that you're town?

[Magua]

Spoiler: Vote Andrius

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Welcome!

[Magua]

I have every faith that you can play such that I find you so goddamn scummy and push and push and push and push for your lynch, only for you to be cleared by someone else's role, yes.

(I also have every faith that you can correctly identify the obvtown scum, and that I will happily ignore that after you're dead becuase, y'know, lolAndrius)

But in all seriousness, I do want your opinion of AGar and Peregrine.

[Magua]

It was also ASoS. I gunned for your lynch until it was all lolKettleblacksareallcleared, and then I was all .

I think Otolia is town. I specifically think he's town from his D1 interactions around David Xanatos and the win condition claiming and that brouhaha, and he's done nothing since then to make me think he's not town. He even went and argued with me about why I thought he was town one or two pages ago.

[Magua]

Oh, god, Andy's unedited catch up wall. Hate that.

Do note that parts of it read as edited and parts of it read as unedited, eg:
"So David Xanatos is still not voting, especially after calling SK "today's lynch". Odd."
"David Xanatos earns +townpoints for thinking there was one scumteam, when there's two."

Both of which would seem to be written before looking at the flips, contrasted with:

"Is it just me or is Magua tunneling Xanatos a little too hard? Because it seems like alot of force against the man who flipped Beloved Prince Mason. :/"

Obviously written knowing the flip, but still in relation to D1.

Or later: "

Shinki is not scum with SC.

Shinki is also dead. "

Going to respond to AgaRs post, Magua?

@Magua #1029. Respond please. Even if it's just "Wow AGar, you're so right!" I'll be satisfied with the recognition.

I read MacDougall as scared newbie. "No lynch" is scum-motivated, yes, but scum know it's scum motivated and avoid doing it. It's just too scummy to be scum. Especially in a setup where the scum have daytalk, MacDougall's play would be coached better by his scummates.

All of these things: scared of lynching town, wanting approval before hammer, being mistrustful of the wagon because it might be "scum motivated" are all classic newbie tells. Yes, they're all incredibly scummy. That's just how newbies work. Scum would know the setup is multiscum, would be looking to hide and coast rather than paint huge signs on themselves that say "WATCH ME NO LYNCH."

Empking was easy to spot because he *should* know better but was playing like he didn't. MacDougall, on the contrary, simply doesn't know better.

I do not think MacDougall is scum, and I do find your pushing for him with such vehemence and with such bullshit like "let's him and me 1v1" is scummy. I don't like it. At all. I'm really glad that your activity and interest in this game has picked up, but "tunnel on the weakest player in the game" is just downright scummy. Saying "vezokpiraka gets a pass for doing stupid shit" is fine, but then saying, "MacDougall can't get a pass because even though he's obviously a newbie I haven't seen him fuck up five games yet" is downright scummy.

Lord knows I'm not 100% at reading newbies (Oversoul, sadly, has fooled me twice), but I'm pretty damn good at it. I got Katsuki-town in MoCO, Shadow1psc-town and Raivann-town in ASoS, and vezokpiraka-town and Blackberry-town in Brightest Day.

[Magua]

What were you expecting? For me to turn into Jack or shaft.ed and do only one-liners?

For you to give a catchup post that shows what you're thinking after having caught up.

Conciseness is pro-town.

@MacDougall:

You were willing to lynch Soda, but unvoted after he claimed VT. Why is that? What claim could he have given where you wouldn't've unvoted him?

UNVOTE: Andrius
VOTE: SodaSpirit17 (L-1)

[Magua]

Seriously, no.

This shit is dumb.

MacDougall isn't scum. Yeah, his hammer yesterday sucked. It sucked hard. It's *too scummy to be scum*. And now this Day opens up and in less than 12 hours he's got six votes on him, putting him at L-1?

No.

This is goddamn opportunistic scum that sees a mislynch. Andrius should *seriously* know better in all sorts of ways. AGar should *seriously* know better in all sorts of ways. Yet neither of them is bothering to think critically about this lynch, they're just full steam ahead.

Andrius, I know from BDM, will do either one of two things: bandwagon a strong wagon (even if it's on his partner), or pick the weakest player he thinks he can get away with to attack. He's doing the latter now. He's literally not voted for anyone but MacDougall. He's going for the weakest of the herd and he's not even bothering to hide it.

VOTE: Andrius

[Magua]

You've never had faith in me. I WAS FUCKING RIGHT IN STORM OF SWORDS. ALL OF YOU WERE BLINDED BY IDIOCY.
You cannot ask me to turn aside from this scumlynch. You cannot deny me this much.
I'm going for the obvscum in the herd.
Why vote someone different just to cast a vote elsewhere?
I will fight the scum no matter where they are.
I will vote them here.
I will vote them there.
I will vote them with green eggs and ham.

What's so scummy about my playstyle? You took the same issue with my SoS play and it took Benmage (lolgovernor) to sway you otherwise. Yet in BDM you thought I was town (lol).

I swear to fucking Christ if you bring up hasdgfas again I will eat your babies. YES. YOU WERE RIGHT ON HASDGFAS. THE WORLD BOWS BEFORE YOU. THAT ONE FUCKING TIME. How about EVERY OTHER TUNNEL I'VE EVER HAD? Remember "lolMaguaisobvcultrecruiter" in ooba's game? Stopped clock. Twice a day.

The difference is that in ASOIAF when you were tunneling me as cult recruiter (lolboggle) and MagnaofIllusion as mafia, you still went out of your way to feel other people out on what they thought, entertain other possibilities and theories. Here you're all "hurrdurrMacDougallisscumhurr" and that's the end of your content.

And I never had a townread on you in BDM. I had a non-cult read on you that was nearly entirely from having a townread on tanstalas and tanstalas confirming you as non-Recruiter.

PEdit: I hate you. I wish I could hate you to death.

[Magua]

PEdit: I hate you. I wish I could hate you to death.

*sighs*

Just in case this wasn't clear, that's me trying to be a little facetious. Stolen from:

Spoiler: Penny Arcade

Rereading it, it sounds meaner than I meant. I was just annoyed to see your next post when I previewed my reply.

[Magua]

ANDRIUS Y U NO BE MASONS WITH ME?

Seriously, though. All of the evidence is that MacDougall is town.

I don't like how EtherealCookie reads, but he gets a pass from me for being the first on the Empking wagon, and to be pushing MacDougall-scum before it was mainstream. His position on the StrangerCoug wagon is worse, especially with the guilty report on SC, so that reads as possible bus, but....meh.

[Magua]

=> => => => => => =>

[Magua]

So couldn't of EC been bussin'?

Errrrr...I explicitly say he could've been bussing StrangerCoug. I mean, literally, in the post. But overall EC's just not high on my scum-meter, both because of being first on Empking (which was certainly not a bus) and because unlike other people on the MacDougall wagon, he at least had been expressing scumreads on MacDougall for quite some time before it was even a wagon.

Here’s my issue with Magua. He wasn’t on the SC wagon. At all. He just kinda ignored it. Disappeared.

...

So, the major question is, where the fuck is Magua during this entire SC thing?

Yeah. I had a crunch weekend at work right before a release. I logged in to handle the games I was modding and that was it.

And then he comes back to vote the most obvious VI when he was adamantly AGAINST voting Vezok because he was an obvious VI?

Errrrrrr. When I came back I voted AGar. AGar is not by any stretch of the imagination a VI. Did you mean *before*, when I voted Peregrine? Peregrine is not a VI either.

I believe MacDougall is in fact a bad choice. He is perhaps as bad a choice as SodaSpirit was. However, Magua is not a bad choice. Magua screams out scum much more than MacDougall. If Magua is scum, I would go forth to lynch Vezok. However, MacDougall can certainly wait. There are people worse than him. I get the feeling town is being manipulated into a terrible lynch once more, and this one will lose the game for us.

So you agree with me that MacDougall is town...but from this you move to suspect that I'm scum who's derailing an obviously bad lynch and bussing my partner Andrius. Do I have that right? And then, still working under the premise that MacDougall is town, you vote me instead of any of the people who were just chomping for his lynch.

Do I have that right?

[Magua]

This is your vote.
You were against Vezok because he was obviously VI. I don't see how you can be against Vezok for being VI but not SodaSpirit when he acted in the same manner.

Soda was a compromise lynch for me. I said so repeatedly.

And yes, I'm voting you, because I have little reason to suspect Andrius in comparison to you, or AGar for that matter. Gaining town credibility by defending someone who then gets lynched and pops town isn't a bad move at all for scum to do, and if it can be done with bussing your partner to further ensure your success, why not?

You can't go from saying "I think they're both scum distancing" to "I have little reason to suspect Andrius in comparison to you." Your #1135 is all "it's Andrius or MacDougall at this point and I prefer MacDougall" (which is odd to say with only me voting Andrius), but then you say MacDougall is town. Which is fine. But then you call me scum defending MacDougall, looking for townpoints when he flips town, which makes *no* sense BECAUSE ITS A TWO-SCUM GAME.

Also makes no sense GIVEN THAT I WAS LYNCHING SODA, WHO THEN FLIPPED TOWN.

Jesus. You're scared "town is getting manipulated into another bad lynch" by attacking the only person who's actually trying to stop the lynch. The mind simply boggles.

[Magua]

God, this game. I'm having like eighteen times as much fun in the AFFC signup thread. Sorry, Wraith.

In between Macdougall and manho and Vezokpiraka (and soda, but lynched him yesterday), my level of trying to read this game has just gone down the drain. EtherealCookie voting Macdougall at the start of D5 and then unvoting after I defend Mac in order to attack me while ignoring Andrius is also incredibly demotivating. I can't even pool the energy to come up with sarcastic pithy comments about how bad it is.

Andrius is still voting Macdougall. Andrius is scum. AGar is meh. I want to believe he's scum because I like being right, but he isn't anywhere near as much scum as Andrius. Manho is scum that Andrius is bussing. Nero Cain is meh like AGar but is less aggressive about it, which is scummier. kdowns is town, but I've found that voting opposite of kdowns-town is how town wins games (see also 70s Smalltown).

Vezokpiraka not having mindlessly bandwagoned onto MacDougall by now is bizarrely out of character for him (as either vezok-town (mindlessly bandwagons in BDM) or vezok-scum (mindlessly bandwagons in ASOIAF)). But on the gripping hand, vezok-scum with Macdougall-scum as a partner would either bw someone else or wouldn't be all "Hey, can we lynch Mac yet?" repeatedly, so, yeah. Just more noise to trawl through.

MattP and Bogre are so....what's the word I'm looking for? Meh. MattP is probably (hopefully) meh-town. Bogre is....whatever, I can't even finish the thought.

Peregrine is at least acting like he gives a shit, and is reminding me of Peregrine in Auction Mafia, so he can be town.

Too many mehs.

Really want Andrius lynch.
If not an Andrius lynch, manho lynch. If I can't get the busser, I'll take the bussee.

UNVOTE: Andrius
VOTE: manho

[Magua]

My god. Peregrine is my strongest townread.

Jesus wept.

[Magua]

Can we just lynch Vezok already then, if nearly everyone agrees that he is scum? His behavior has been scummy as shit, and any decent scum player would've bussed him by now as well, so the "too many people willing to lynch" excuse isn't applicable here. His behavior has been scummy throughout the game. My reads are completely muddled at this point, but he radiates with scum, and is a good lynch choice. Manho is somewhat suspicious as well, but his behavior isn't that abnormal from my previous experiences with him.

Don't think vezok's scum. Or, at least, his behavior is out of character for him both as scum and as town, so, meh.

Now, how do you get from attacking me for voting Soda yesterday, and then come out with this bullshit?

Or, to put it another way: Counterquestion: Why not

Zoidberg

manho?

[Magua]

@Andrius:

Do you think MacDougall is scum? Yes/no.
Do you think manho is scum? Yes/no.

[Magua]

Keep in mind I'm pretty sure Andrius also thinks you are scum Magua. Or at least did...

That's ok. I think he's scum too. Because our relationship is built on equality.

Sadly, no one else shares this belief with me[1], which makes me sad. But, neither of those mean I'm not going to try to get his vote off of someone I don't want lynched onto someone I do.

[1] Except EtherealCookie.

[Magua]

UNVOTE: manho
VOTE: Andrius

EtherealCookie, how many times will you say Andrius is scummy before voting him?

[Magua]

I think nearly everyone is scummy at this point. Why Andrius over Vezok?Andrius is suspicious, but as much as Vezok? I don't think so. I don't understand why people are convinced Vezok isn't scum just because his behavior is generally VI.EmpKing behaved in a very VI manner too, and op, he was scum. Being bad doesn't make you town.

How do you hold this idea in your head while still agreeing with me that MacDougall is town?

Empking behaved in a VI manner

and is not a VI

. That's what made him scummy. Vezok

is

a VI. That's the difference. It's not some big objective way of defining bad town play from scum play, it's a level of expectations from the player.

[Magua]

Hey. AGar. Who besides MacDougall[1] are you willing to lynch? How about Andrius?

No one's going to hammer a MacDougall lynch. Let's get a counterwagon going.

[1] And me. Smartass.

[Magua]

Peregrine's town. EtherealCookie I can really only see as a buddy to Andrius, so I'm very curious how you're ok with lynching EC but not with lynching Andrius.

Bogre can die, though, that one I can agree with.

[Magua]

I'm not "confused" by your "thought" processes. I'm curious as to how you think EC is scum and Andrius is town, given EC's repeated "Andrius is scum" cries followed by EC's complete refusal to actually vote Andrius.

[Magua]

Go ahead, vote for him and I'll finish it. If the reason people aren't willing to vote someone off is because they're afraid they have to be the hammer then fuck it, I'll take the blame if he ends up being village. I'm pretty confidant he isn't.

It's got absolutely nothing to do with being the hammer vote, and everything to do with no one else wants to vote MacDougall.

So let's get an actual counterwagon that will actually reach lynch.

What's the Andrius/EC link?

Read EtherealCookie in ISO. Note how many times he calls Andrius scummy/hypothesizes him was being scum with someone. Then note how he goes out of his way to not vote Andrius.

[Magua]

Because EC also said Vezok was scum but refused to vote him.
And did the same with you iirc.

You do not remember correctly.

EtherealCookie votes Magua (#1138)
EthereaCookie votes vezokpiraka (#1270)

[Magua]

UNVOTE: manho
VOTE: EtherealCookie

OMGIS

[Magua]

UNVOTE: EtherealCookie
VOTE: Andrius

[Magua]

Trouble making up your mind as well, Magua?
I don't want to see MacDougall lynched. I would prefer a Vezok lynch. Seems like the latter isn't likely to happen, and given Andrius faked interest in pushing a Magua lynch, said he'd re-read everything, and yet really hasn't had anything to add, this is the most logical wagon to follow.

No trouble making up my mind. I have a pool of people I want to lynch -- Andrius, you, manho. I'm willing to vote *any* of them at this point just for *something* to happen here.

[Magua]

@Mod:

Votecount please.

@Andrius:

Selfvote please.

[Magua]

I'll buy you a dictionary.

[Magua]

MattP is pretty much just wanting to hammer MacDougall.

Bogre NEEDS TO FUCKING VOTE OR DIE.

[Magua]

PeregrineV, opinions on MacDougall and Andrius pl0x.

[Magua]

Now Andrius is at L-1 and I am completely backtracking here because I am totally not cool with the speed at which that wagon built up.

UNVOTE: Andrius

10 [expletive deleted] days we've been here and [expletive deleted]-all has been getting [expletive deleted]ing done and when finally something [expletive deleted] happens you're all "Oh [expletive deleted], let's stop and think [expletive deleted]ing deep thoughts about this with the 48 hours left before the [expletive deleted] Day is [expletive deleted] over?"

vezok and kdowns both do this [expletive deleted]ing [expletive deleted] all the [expletive deleted]ing time. vezok did it in Brightest Day Mafia [expletive deleted]ing repeatedly, and kdowns [expletive deleted]ing did it in 70s Smalltown Mafia also [expletive deleted]ing repeatedly.

We are not no-lynching, so if you don't want to [expletive deleted]ing vote [expletive deleted]ing Andrius, then either present someone else before the [expletive deleted]ing deadline is up, or self vote. This [expletive deleted]ing unvote is not going to [expletive deleted]ing cut it.

Alternatively: kdowns is near certainly town because of the [expletive deleted]ing one-shot vig claim, so who is giving you the cold feet with their Andrius vote?

[expletive deleted]ing [expletive deleted] for [expletive deleted].

[Magua]

I was so certain that Andrius was going to flip mafia. And that EtherealCookie was going to be his partner. I could taste it.

Luckily, the mafia has helped us out tremendously, and I was right on manho.

@Mod:

Is this NAR, where recruitment comes after kills? Is it guaranteed that manho was recruited before N5?
Also, what is an "Enabling" Traitor?

[Magua]

I still feel pretty sure about Magua/EC.

Which scumteam do you see me on? Empking/PeregrineV, or StrangerCoug/manho?

What about EtherealCookie?

I have also changed my position on Magua. Methinks he is scum.

I changed my stance because expletives aside, his point was valid, and after all I did think Andrius was scum...

...

I thought Andrius was scum too. I was convinced of it. I was wrong.

That said, your reason for voting me -- that Andrius flipped town -- is bullshit because if all I wanted was town dead, I could've just hammered you yesterday.

You're still town. I'm just saying your reasoning here completely sucks.

Yeah, I'm gonna vote Magua as well. No, I'm not bandwagoning MacDougall, I had voted Magua yesterday and I intend to follow through with that vote today. Him and EC, if I'm wrong I'll eat rusty nails.

I'd hate for you to get tetanus. But let's say you lynch me and I flip town. Will you go after EtherealCookie tomorrow?

For me, my scumread on EtherealCookie has diminished quite a bit with the Andrius-town flip.
Macdougall is still town.
kdowns is still town.
vezokpiraka is *probably* town.

Leaves Bogre, AGar, Matt, and Nero Cain.

Of those, Bogre is now my main suspect by far. I liked his 1418, but looking back over his ISO, his suspicion of EtherealCookie goes back to D5, but doesn't seem to be adjusted in light of Andrius-town, Peregrine-scum or manho-scum. It's like he's picked his read and is sticking to it without re-evaluating; also, he managed to get through D5 without ever once giving an opinion or comment on the Andrius wagon.

VOTE: Bogre

[Magua]

Welp. Suspicions of Magua return. I recall him pushing for Manho's lynch last day too. He's very likely on the other scum team.

VOTE: Magua

The one with Empking?

[Magua]

Why isn't Kdowns dead? Why would the scum kill all these other players and not the only real "confirmed" townie we have?

How about because he's fucking terrible?

No offense, kdowns.

<_<
>_>

I'd guess you and EC are mafia together. This is due to distancing from yesterday between you two. You and manho don't fit as mafia together. Therefore, I'd put you and EC with Empking/Peregrine.

D1 end-of-day votecount from #731:

Empking(12):

EtherealCookie

, SleepyKrew,

Magua

, Otolia, manho, MattP, StrangerCoug, SodaSpirit17, Nero Cain , kdowns, Shinki, Nero Cain, MacDougall

Just want to make sure you're serious on this.

What I want to know is, why is everyone ignoring Bogre?

[Magua]

I'd much rather kill him today than fight with everyone about how Macdougall is scum (he still is), because no one is going to actually listen so.

Am I scum with Macdougall?
If so, why do you think Macdougall is bussing me instead of me bussing him?
If not, why do you think I'm defending Macdougall?

Magua, what is your read on AGar currently? Cuz his last post was pretty damn scummy if I do say so myself.

AGar is being incredibly opportunistic, especially since, being familiar with vezokpiraka's play, he *knows* that vezok has a tendency to hammer just about anyone at L-1 as both town and scum. In addition, his reads aren't changing in response to events -- he had both Peregrine and manho down as townreads, and we know that at least manho was recruited before D5 and was still pushing for the Macdougall lynch. It all reads like simply going after easy targets. Macdougall is an easy target. I'm, given D5 yesterday, an easy target. There's a severe lack of effort.

I *still* want to know what people think about Bogre. It's D6.

[Magua]

UNVOTE: Magua
VOTE: kdowns

Mac

Do you think kdowns was lying about shooting SK?

Do you think the mafia was given an extra Night Kill?

[Magua]

Do you recall that he was killed before we realised there were two scum teams?

First, I fail to see how that makes any difference at all in the questions I asked.

Second, the scum undoubtedly knew the moment they saw their role PMs that there were two teams (due to team size for a 25 player game). Probably even moreso now because having a traitor for each team means a smaller starting team.

[Magua]

Er.

There were *3* kills: gandalf, SleepyKrew, and JDGA.

So. Where did the extra kill come from? Back to my original questions. Do you think kdowns is lying about shooting SleepyKrew, and, do you think that one of the mafia was given an additional 1-shot kill?

[Magua]

I think that kdowns killed SleepyKrew but is scum. I think that gandalf or JDGA died for another reason. Maybe they targeted a PGO or there is a SK?

No SK. This is D6, there's been no additional kills since N1. PGO? Maybe. More plausible than SK. But still, it's D6 without any additional kills since then. Very unlikely. And I don't think Wraith would have a PGO to begin with. So.

I dunno, I just don't trust kdowns at all anymore. A confirmed townie doesn't play like him. Why are you so defensive of him?

His being confirmed town or not has nothing to do with his play.

I am defensive about him for the same reason I'm defensive about you. I don't want town lynched. You're town. kdowns is 99.99% town.

[Magua]

You've been playing in a manner that I've found suspect since either D3 or 4 now. Your attacks have been contrived and you've been "sure" of all sorts of wrong reads while defending players without logistical cause. Claiming to be able to read new players is not a logical reason to out and out defend someone while ignoring the actual points being brought up against someone.

Yes, I've been sure of wrong reads. Shit happens. I'm really sorry to Andrius, but that's about it. I was right on Empking and manho, and I was right on Peregrine until the entire town started derping on MacDougall which made him look better in comparison.

Likelihood of you being scum with Macdougall doesn't matter.

That's complete bullshit, and is a symptom of you not bothering to think these things through. Even your grouping of (Magua, EtherealCookie, MacDougall) reads like you picking three names out of a hat, and is already prepping for "Magua flips town, need to go after the next target."

[Magua]

If I'm scum, why am I defending MacDougall as town? What is my motivation?

[Magua]

Need more posting from Bogre, EtherealCookie, vezokpiraka

[Magua]

Your stance is that you were roleblocked last Night and that Nero Cain roleblocked you.

Got that part.

But what makes Nero Cain the roleblocker?

Who else besides Nero is mafia?

[Magua]

Nero, why are you voting EtherealCookie and not vezokpiraka? Your ISO is full of vezokpiraka with hardly a hint of EC, yet now you're pushing EC's lynch like the Second Coming.

Bogre, same question.

[Magua]

Ok. Claiming time.

I'm a Jack of All Trades. I had a one-shot investigation, one-shot doctor, and one-shot roleblock at my disposal.

N2, I protected Shinki.
N3, I investigated MacDougall and got back loyalist.

I held onto the roleblock until last night because I wanted to keep it until there was only one mafia on a team. Last night I roleblocked Bogre.

I did *not* roleblock vezokpiraka N4.

My roleblock only explains one missing kill. Not sure on the other, though I have suspicions that I don't want to share right now until everyone's checked in.

VOTE: Bogre

[Magua]

Recognize Your Rightful Primarch: You may visit a faction once per night and make your claim to the throne, confirming to them your status as a rightful heir. I of course used this n1 with David Xanatos, cause I was betting that a scum group wouldn't gambit that early, which was good, cause especially with the talk from gandalf and stuff about heir-faction-alignment craziness I was feeling hesitant to use it and proclaim my heir status to a scum faction or third-party.

So you can confirm your alignment as town to someone...and you only used this N1?

Lulz.

No.

Okay, I think Magua must be the Bremburg rolecop then.

1. Why Bremburg? Why not Eastern?
2. According to you, if I were a rolecop I'd've gotten no result. How does that reflect at all in my claim that made you suggest it?

[Magua]

Cause I could only neighbor one faction....?

Recognize Your Rightful Primarch: You may visit a faction

once per night

and make your claim to the throne

[Magua]

To join their QT, yeah. I wasn't going to try and hit any other factions.

This doesn't even parse at all. If this was your role, why would you not be confirming yourself as town to someone every night?

[Magua]

And if you'd confirmed yourself as town to the David/monk/whispersilk masonry, how come none of them ever mention you, say they have a townread on you, etc?

[Magua]

So, just want to make sure I have this straight:
- You can confirm yourself to be town to someone every Night, but you only did it N1, and there's no indication that he or the other masons ever actually received this information.
- You don't confirm yourself to anyone N2-N5.
- N6, at a point where there's less than ten people in the game and no one has a townread on you, instead of confirming yourself as town to someone, you hide.

Do I have all that right?

[Magua]

MacDougall is town, 100000000000%
kdowns is town, 99.99%

I'm assuming that after the traitor deaths N5, we've got one of each scum remaining. Given that:

If Bogre flips some form of Neighborizer/Hider thing, then I just don't know. Worst case from this point, tomorrow is 1:1:3 lylo.

Bogre flips some scum faction, should leave us 5:1 tomorrow facing the other scum. In this case, I'd be all over a vezokpiraka lynch just to ensure he doesn't see lylo.

The thing to remember is vezokpiraka's claimed roleblock during N4. Given Eastern flipped a rolecop, I can see Bremburg having a roleblocker, but why roleblock vezok of all people? That part really gives me pause, but the thing is, I don't see vezok being the type to lie about it.

I'm not nearly as suspicious of AGar as I was, given the Andrius-town-flip. I'm leaning fairly town on MattP. So I'd be looking at Nero Cain, simply because everyone has really been calling him town and yet he's still alive, and not getting roleblocked in preference to vezokpiraka.

So: non-lylo, lynch vezok. Lylo, probably lynch Cain.

[Magua]

I said my peace in the Dead QT. Game was fun. Flavor was fun. Having a role that is recruited into the Mafia QT without actually winning with the Mafia is not fun. Having a role that meant that Nero Cain and I actually lost N5 and just didn't know it for three more Days is not fun.

[Magua]

Dead QT

[Magua]

HEY MAGUA
LISTEN TO THIS NONSENSE
SCUM DAYVIGS?
ANYONE SEEN ONE OF THEM BEFORE?

No.

Never.

*pops more memory repressors*