Mini 62: Pokemafia!

[massive]

Firm and I'm totally gonna get me a Jigglypuff. Reminds me of my mother.

er.

-- massive

[massive]

Well, with the revelation that Meowth was owned by a non-Rocket player, I guess going through each player's Pokemon isn't going to be helpful. Which of you is going to admit to having Victreebell? Come on!

[massive]

Uh ... I'm good. And I really hope that we can train our Pokemon. Mine will be cool when evolved!

[massive]

random vote: shadyforce

Um, we could discuss again what the likelihood of evolving our Pokemon are. If we think we can evolve them, it makes sense to go after the lower-evolutions since they're more easily captured; if they don't, then trying for the more powerful ones might be high-risk/high-reward. Any thoughts?

And I originally expected the Pokemon to be one-use-only - I guess I was thinking that, since we were capturing new ones (possibly) with new abilities (possibly), that we'd use up our old ones. Looking at the known Pokemon now, though, it's kinda inconclusive. It looks like Squirtle might have been one-shot, but Meowth doesn't really seem like he's one-shot until he actually finds a Mafia. Ponder.

Another further discussion topic could be criteria for catching new Pokemon, but that might be a little iffy since it would rely on people's experience and give away more info to Team Rocket than might be beneficial.

-- mashive

[massive]

Hrm, that's a good point. I hadn't thought about it. I'm assuming that this game is based on the TV show and not on the card game or Nintendo games ... but I'm trying to think if any of the Pokemon they actually SHOW being captured were evolved Pokemon. I know Team Rocket tried, on regular occasions, to capture evolved Pokemon (Clefable comes to mind immediately).

My original Pokemon is one-shot and does not evolve. I will also admit that I attempted to catch a basic Pokemon last night, so I have nothing game-wise to offer to the above paragraph.

[massive]

Yeah, I'm also curious what the heck Someone was talking about ...what exactly IS your strange situation?

[massive]

unvote shadyforce
vote mlaker

I don't know if it's just your style, but the last few times I've seen you play as Mafia, you play EXACTLY the same as you're playing now.

[massive]

I'm curious where the concept that mlaker knew what Bulbasaur did came from. Nowhere does he say he knew what Bulbasaur did before PBuG's role claim; all mlaker did was say "yeah, I have one too" and go on. Someone was actually the one saying "well we can clear mlaker and PBuG since they have the same Pokemon." This "clearing of PBuG" by mlaker proves absolutely nothing about mlaker's affiliation. Or PBuG's for that matter. In fact, I don't think we should use "which Pokemon we have" as a basis of clearing people at all ... heck, we could ALL try and catch Bulbasaurs tonight just to clear ourselves.

If there's anything that might prove innocence, it's probably original Pokemon, since I doubt that any of those were repeated. At least, I'd be really suspicious of anyone who came up with MY original Pokemon, that's for sure.

Vote stands.

[massive]

Hrm. Two things. One, I wouldn't be surprised if there's no difference between initial Pokemon and captured Pokemon. But by the same token, I would be surprised if any two of us had the same initial Pokemon. That's why I believe that initial Pokemon is probably the only indicator of innocence, if there is indeed one.

Two, I would be surprised if anyone caught my initial Pokemon. I imagine it's possible, but seeing as how all of our claims seem to have gone for the generic "cartoon-related" Pokemon, I think it would take a couple dozen nights to hit it.

Again, I'm not seeing Bulbasaur as any indicator of innocence. I guess we can bandwagon either way, but whatever. It just seems like mlaker pulled out that Bulbasaur card as an easy way to push off whatever suspicion is on him. He got lumped into the "innocent by Bulbasaur" group WAY too easily. Go back and look at his post.

[massive]

Well, I'm sure this will be played off as just an innocent slip-up, but I sure find it interesting that mathcam has commented twice about maintaining his PBuG vote despite having unvoted him at the top of this page.

As for PBuG ... the "generic townie" just doesn't strike me as a slip-up. I probably would have said I was a generic townie as well. It's not like I'm a special "name" trainer like Ash or Brock or anything. The mlaker "me too" comment just strikes me as WAY more suspicious.

[massive]

mlaker, will you say anything at all to redirect attention when you're in trouble? If I'm doing anything, it's trying to show how much MORE likely it is that you're scum than PBuG. I've had no problem giving out information about myself and my Pokemon in this game, and I'm at least TRYING to find Mafia rather than pointing random fingers at whoever comes at me.

I'm still waiting for someone to show me where mlaker knew what Bulbasaur did before it was listed in the thread, since that seems to have been bandied about as a reason he was innocent, and yet I can't find it. Yeah, he claimed he had one, but his comment was casually thrown in and didn't provide any additional information. Of course, it could be that since I was already suspicious of him at that point, I'm looking too hard ...

Ugh. We could all pick the same Pokemon night after night and make no progress. I'm purposefully picking Pokemon that hopefully NO ONE else is choosing. And I'm advocating that, for future roleclaims, name of Pokemon only for first claim so that way we can determine if anyone ELSE has caught one and can confirm the abilities.

[massive]

Uh, shouldn't that be "trainer"? As of yet we have no reason to believe that there are roles like gym leaders or other TV-show characters beyond the trainers ... in fact, it would be my opinion that if there WERE certain characters, it would unbalance the town and push aside all the hard work that was done on our Pokemon.

Well, here are my reasons. I started out voting for you because, in the last few games where we have played together and you have been Mafia (at least two to my knowledge), you have acted exactly like you were acting at the beginning of the game: little inflamatory posts seemingly designed to whip up the ire of the populace without involving yourself in any real debate. That was a good place to start for me; better than random in any event. Then you "cleared" PBuG with your announcement of having the same Pokemon as he did, when that doesn't clear him OR you despite what the town thinks. THEN the random shifting of focus to me for "protecting PBuG" for merely stating I would have said the same thing as he did: that I was a generic townie (and certainly not stated I was "pro-trainer"). THEN the pro-trainer statement, which I delineated above.

There. Do you want me to ask why you're voting me? Or do you want to put OMGUS in your next vote for me?

[massive]

At this point, I'd be happy with a random lynching. You guys sure are stalling this game out.

Unofficial vote count:

massive (2):

Maverick, mlaker

PBuG (2):

shadyforce, mathcam

mlaker (4):

massive, discer, Stewie, PBuG

No vote: Someone, Fletcher

Well, since no one seems to want to press mlaker for info, and he's not giving any up despite having four votes, does anyone else have any good ideas?

[massive]

The reason that we're stagnating is because we're all deadset on voting for people for first-day reasons and no one's willing to move. We've apparently gotten all the info we can, and I'm not willing to start more bandwagons just to gain info. Mole seems to be content to let us wade through our mediocrity though.

shadyforce: Pretend I'm totally lazy and walk me through again why you feel PBuG is the best lynch choice for today? Or cam, either one.

[massive]

At the top of this page are listed reasons why I, at least, am still voting for mlaker.

And, uh, wow. I just looked at my role PM and realized something. There's no reason anyone should have had to make up the "generic townie" name, since both Boo and Electra were "generic townies" and are listed by the generic townie name, "Pokemon Trainer," on the front page AND in their death scene on page 2.

Sorry, cam, but the continued argument of the name slip-up now earns you a

healthy FOS

. Maybe YOU didn't know the real name of the "generic townie" despite it being listed in the thread already?

[massive]

I didn't mean to imply you were continuing it here without provocation, cam. But you also brought it up two or three times on page 5 during your "confirm non-vote" stage. Maybe we all forgot that the term "Pokemon Trainer" was already put out in the thread, but saying he was forced to say "generic townie" because he couldn't say "Pokemon Trainer" with certainty is incorrect. And I'm saying I get to be suspicious of you (at least for now) because I know the "generic townie" name WAS out in the thread and no longer a criteria in and of itself for lynching despite the continued discussion of it.

I do agree, though, that "generic townie" right now is the easiest claim a Mafia can make. We've had two dead trainers already, and two more (now that mlaker has shifted his claim from "pro-trainer" to "trainer") in the thread, and I reckon we'll have more before the game is done. But your argument originally was "he didn't know the townie name" and not "townie is the easiest claim for him to make". It's semantics.

And I'm also not saying that mlaker is trying to clear PBuG by claiming the same Pokemon. It feels more like mlaker was trying to clear his OWN name by saying "Oh, obviously PBuG is town since I am town and have the same Pokemon," thus tying his innocence to PBuG's.

The bandwagon is less than spectacular. Not only is it not going to lynch anyone, but it's alsos having no effect in terms of gathering information. As I said earlier, mlaker is the most suspicious at this time, to me. The only other options currently are to bandwagon PBuG (which we already did, and enough people jumped off with the Bulbasaur revelation) or to bandwagon myself, since I'm the other person with votes, and I'll pass on that, thanks.

mlaker continues to proclaim that I should be lynched next if PBuG turns out to be Rocket. He's not actually VOTING for PBuG mind you ... he just, again, is trying to redirect attention away from himself and to the next target.

mlaker: No Mafia would blatantly "back up" a Mafia buddy like this. Not a smart one, at least. You've played enough Mafia games to know that.

[massive]

[enter Talitha mode]

And it should be noted that discer's post where he votes (quoted by mathcam above) also quoted my initial vote for mlaker where I put forth the initial opinion that mlaker is playing as he's played when Mafia.

[/Talitha mode ]

[massive]

Plus it has the added bonus of not killing a power role if he turns out to be pro-town.

Well, both mlaker and PBuG claim to have Bulbasaurs. Not spectacular in that it only prevents someone from catching another Pokemon. That leaves only their initial Pokemon as indicators of their relative strength to the town. Should we be forcing them to reveal their initial Pokemon? Name only perhaps, to start with, so we don't get into the "yeah me too" commotion again?

Other people who have not been talking: Please weigh in here.

[massive]

I'm a generic townie. The first pokemon I chose was Bulbasaur, who prevents it's target from catching any pokemon.

Uh. Okay that settles it. I don't know about other trainers, but I didn't get a choice of who my original Pokemon was.

unvote mlaker
vote PBuG

mlaker: don't worry, I'll come back for you later.

[massive]

Hey, come on, I'm trying to keep an open mind here ... I'm trying to look at all the facts and be impartial. Just because it appears I was harping on you for suspecting PBuG doesn't mean you were wrong, it just meant you didn't have a good argument for suspecting him.

My last count SHOULD have been accurate. It was only a couple of changes from the last official one. I wondered why PBuG said he had five votes, but since it was part of his "TR would have lynched me" argument, and I already was going to vote for him, I figured it must have been misdirection. *shrug*

[massive]

In anticipation of a long twilight, does anyone want to discuss Pokemon trapping ideas? I've got a nice theme going that I'm going to hopefully stick to, provided mlaker doesn't try and Bulbasaur me. But I'd also be willing to try and trap a level 1 or 2 evolution Pokemon just to see if we can or can't (again, assuming mlaker doesn't Bulbasaur me).

[massive]

Actually, in the rules, it states that you can't catch evolved Pokemon - just basic ones. So that means trying to find out if you CAN catch them is unnecessary.

As for training, we never did determine what we thought the mechanic would be. We came up with the theory that using them would advance them in levels, but maybe you do have to actively train them. I'm going to use one of mine tonight in the hopes that it might eventually evolve, but real-Pokemon-wise it needs a special event/item in order to evolve, so I'm doubting it'll happen. That's OK, it's cute!

If the choice is train or catch ... I'm going to catch under that premise.

I really want a Torchic. Can't we adjust the Pokemon range?

[massive]

What are you going to go for, Stewie? In my opinion there's no cooler basic Pokemon than Jigglypuff. That's what you should go for.

In thinking about recruiting evolved Pokemon (and then looking for a basic Pokemon to catch tonight), I began wondering about the mechanics about catching Pokemon, too. Do you think it's harder to catch some of the more powerful basics, like Kangaskhan or Lickitung? Do you think it's dependent on which Pokemon you already have?

I honestly can't wait to see the game setup for this. It's been very cool.

[massive]

Me too. I can't abandon my Pokemon!

[massive]

Well, I'm beginning to feel my first twinges of Mafia cold turkey ... dead in Mixed Theme, dead in Coupling, dead in Mini 67, nighttime in Holy Grail ... and this game ...

AUGH! MUST! PLAY! MAFIA!

(and quit killing me, you guys)

[massive]

I'm invested. Vote to wait at least a little while longer.

[massive]

Well, three deaths is a LOT. And I have no idea how to proceed without knowing the identities of our lost compatriots. Obviously the Rockets killed Maverick, and I have a good idea what took out discer, but without knowing who was what, I don't think speculation is going to help us.

[massive]

We are going to have everyone claim Pokemon trainer, and I get the feeling that all the remaining pro-town people ARE Pokemon trainers. I'm just worried that we have more anti-town people than we think.

I mean, with three kills, we HAVE to assume there are three killers left.

We COULD go throw and each reveal our initial Pokemon, but I'm not even sure THAT will provide any helpful information, since a Rocket doesn't necessarily need to lie about what Pokemon they have (just about what ability it has, probably). I mean, I wouldn't have thought of Grimer as a Rocket Pokemon despite that being what PBuG started with.

(ewp: Someone has a Meowth. My best idea, at this point, is to have him reveal his Meowth choices.)

[massive]

Well, upon re-reading the thread, I thought I had figured out at least part of something Someone was hinting at. He had said he had a "strange situation" on day one, and then voted Stewie. Seeing later that he had a Meowth, I assumed that he had sent Meowth out to check Stewie but Meowth hadn't come back, which was why he said what he said and voted for Stewie.

So coming back and finding out he has no Meowth results from last night, or at all, leads me again to wonder what the heck he was referring to on day one. I think it's on page three. Maybe you can shed some light, Someone? I'm definitely leaning towards voting for you. I know I was able to put my Pokemon use choices AND my capturing choice into one PM, and Meowth's ability seems really straightforward.

I have some ideas, but after that first bit, I think I'll see what Someone has to say in his defense.

As to what killed discer, I don't guess it'll hurt to say. Whoever has the Pokemon will probably just claim some other Pokemon anyways. There's a Ghost Pokemon evolution chain, Ghastly/Haunter/Gengar, that's probably responsible.

[massive]

vote Someone

I'm just not buying it. I had an idea about what I thought Shellder might do, and it would make it likely that Someone would want to use Shellder instead of Meowth. Now seeing that he made NO night choice, with EITHER Pokemon, just makes me think that he's bluffing.

[massive]

My reason for voting for Someone are because he hasn't acted in the interest of the town. He picked up Meowth on night one and we all KNOW what Meowth's ability is: to find Rockets. Why wouldn't you use him on night two? Someone is, right now, the only revealed inspector, but he has NO results because ... he forgot? Time ran out? It just doesn't work for me.

[massive]

I'm sorry I seem a little aggressive. I am very sure there will be less killings tonight. But cam is right - we need to hit a baddy today or our survival chances go way down. The converse problem is, if we don't lynch anyone today, we risk being in the same position we are in RIGHT NOW when tomorrow dawns.

The explanation about Maverick SEEMS to be that Maverick was targeted with a kill on night one that didn't go through because of Abra. Night two then went through. It would explain why there were only two kills on night one also.

I also think that if you are the townie player who managed to kill a player last night, you had best come forward with it. Now. Or if anyone caught a Meowth recently, so we know we'll have some decent info tomorrow.

Someone: did you use Shellder on night one?

[massive]

Cam: In regards to the three killing groups - I think we HAVE to assume that there are three evil killing groups because assuming some townie screwed up is an act that could cost us the game. Hopefully the third kill was caused because some evil party caught a Ghastly, and we will kill two birds with one stone, but I'm preferring to err on the side of too MANY killers.

And in regards to how many kills will happen tonight - yes, there is something I'm not telling you. I just wish *I* had thought to try and catch a Ditto.

[massive]

Yeah. That was Squirtle, not Shellder. But close.

How did we manage to get so many players with the same Pokemon? Bulbasaur I can see, but a second Drowzee makes no sense to me. Did you start with him, Stewie? And if not, what made you decide to try and catch one?

[massive]

unvote Someone

There's no way your Drowzee could have killed mlaker because the other Drowzee put him to sleep. The other Drowzee was mlaker's.

vote Stewie

[massive]

[Talitha mode]

And before you go telling me there's a THIRD Drowzee running around ...

[/Talitha mode]

[massive]

Talitha has a penchant for double- and triple-posting ... every time I get the urge to double-post, I feel like I have to qualify it.

Drowzee is definitely NOT the type of Pokemon where three of them should appear in this game. None of the main characters in the TV show own one, none of the Rockets do either.

And if we're all asleep at night, how does Drowzee's first ability cause us to not do anything that night? I mean, obviously we can sleepwalk.

[massive]

I have no idea. What you are suggesting, Cam, is that Stewie put mlaker to sleep and someone ELSE knocked him unconscious?

My contention is not necessarily that Stewie's Drowzee caused the death. My contention is that I think Stewie claimed he had a Drowzee, a Pokemon we knew the effects of, and applied it to the kill that he did in some other way, making it look "accidental". The problem, however, is that it's just not logically coming together. There needs to be a third sleep-power Pokemon that targeted mlaker, and I just don't see that as viable. No one else has come out, either, to claim the sleep effect. mlaker was probably the most suspicious at the end of the day (to me anyways), so a Rocket wouldn't target him to block him OR kill him - they'd let him live to be lynched today.

I just don't know. It's not adding up. Please also note that Stewie thinks we will have less kills tonight because "the docs will get one right" and not because he won't use his Drowzee to keep from accidentally killing another player.

shadyforce: What you suggest COULD be possible, but we know mlaker wasn't Mafia, so that would mean that TWO OTHER players have Drowzees if you believe Stewie is innocent. We also know that PBuG selected Bulbasaur as his catch for night one, so the chances of mass Mafia Drowzee-catching probably are low. (They would have all had to catch them night one to use them night two.)

I'm beginning to think that mass Pokemon name claim is looking more and more appealing. We just don't know what's out there.

[massive]

The only issue I have with revealing Pokemon powers is that we could viably give the Rockets information on Pokemon that would be infinitely helpful in concealing their night-time activities. I'd rather not give the Rockets a leg up; I'd be content with just names.

Cam: did you start with the Bulbosaur?

unvote Stewie

as either he's not Mafia, or he's Mafia with Mathcam (since they both have Chanseys and aren't contradicting each other).

I started out with Moltres. Since it seemed like I was a fire-type trainer, I caught a Vulpix on night one and a Growlithe last night.

[massive]

Right now, shadyforce is looking the most innocent to me. When I saw I had a Moltres, I figured the other two Legendary Pokemon had to be in the game ... it was just a matter of time before Articuno and Zapdos came out. No one would risk claiming one of the Legendary knowing that they were in the game, because the risk of being called out is too high.

That's also why I said I'd seriously doubt the claim of anyone claiming my initial Pokemon - the Legendary are just that, Legendary, and shouldn't be owned by more than one person.

Cam: Something to remember about Team Rocket: they're not in the tournament. They've most likely snuck into the tournament to try and sabotage it. It's very rare when they actually compete in tournaments.

The only one we don't know anything about is Fletcher; I'm willing to move that direction if the entire tournament agrees.

[massive]

He was unable to catch Moltres because *I* have Moltres, and haven't used him. As far as I remember (and this is from the TV show), the Legendary Pokemon are singular, meaning you can't catch multiples of them.

Plus, since I know *I*'m pro-town and have a Legendary Pokemon, it makes sense that the other two would be pro-town as well.

I hate to say this, cam, but I think you're the most suspicious right now to me. Why did you pick Diglett? You've already said you had no idea what that was. Even marginal reading of a Pokemon website would give you some idea of what Pokemon might have a good, pro-town ability ... I even suggested Jigglypuff on day one. Chansey's ability had already been put out in the thread, although it's logical that that is Chansey's ability. It's almost as if you've gained the trust of the town by revealing absolutely no new information ...

I hate going up against mathcam. I know he's smarter than me. I always feel like such a heel for doing it.

[massive]

... and that goes to show that the theory is wrong: There's no Zapdos (since only Fletcher hadn't claimed his Pokemon, he was the only one who could have had it).

So right now, claim-wise, in order of catching:

Me: Moltres, Vulpix, Growlithe
Fletcher: Psyduck, Jigglypuff, Growlithe
mathcam: Chansey, Diglett, Bulbasaur
Someone: Shellder, Meowth, Ditto
Stewie: Kangaskhan, Drowzee, Chansey
shadyforce: Articuno, Abra

Fletcher: Who did you use last night? I'm assuming Jigglypuff.

[massive]

Hrm. Shadyforce ... when you read your PM about Articuno, did you have the same impression that I did - that all three Legendary Pokemon were in the game? I would have argued that point for quite a while, had it come up. Were you as surprised as I was to see no Zapdos?

[massive]

Fletcher: I'd be really interested to hear what Jigglypuff's ability is. I had what I thought was a pretty good idea, so it surprises me to hear you say that you didn't use it.

[massive]

Well, I have a problem with that ... but mostly because I think Fletcher is the most suspicious. Jigglypuff SHOULD have that ability ... but anyone who knows the game should know that it should be identical to Drowzee's. Jigglypuff's Sing attack causes the opponent to fall asleep. But of course, Fletcher wouldn't want to reveal that since that would mean he was at least halfway responsible for mlaker's death.

Right now I believe the remaining evil is Fletcher and mathcam, who covered up nicely the fact that Fletcher must not have seen that he could end today earlier. I've already outlined my other mathcam-suspicion reasons.

unvote whomever
vote Fletcher

[massive]

The problem is, if mathcam is telling the truth, he's one of our doctors. I'd feel much more comfortable lynching Fletcher now - we know what Jigglypuff does or is supposed to do, I know what Growlithe does and he's not proactive, ... and we have to assume that if Psyduck IS one-shot (or whichever Pokemon Fletcher might really have), then it might be a game-breaking ability.

Speaking of game-breaking ability, shadyforce ... do you think it would be wise to co-ordinate our Legendary abilities? I know what Moltres does, so I'm assuming Articuno is pretty solid as well.

[massive]

I would prefer to use Moltres tonight, and save Articuno for tomorrow night. I have no problem revealing what Moltres does, although I'd prefer to wait until we hit twilight.

I'm also still interested in what Shellder does. And Kangaskhan to some extent, although I have Stewie in my "more likely town than not" category. And still interested why mathcam picked Diglett.

[massive]

What's funny is, I can explain a lot of that, cam. It's a nice attempt, but looking more and more desperate.

I used Vulpix last night. Her ability is to scare off any Pokemon who attempt to target me with an ability. Kinda like Growlithe, only not as detailed. I figured there had to be Pokemon-related kills (and the Ghastly kill proves that, at least) so I wanted to protect myself, and it looks like I made a good choice since even accidental death is waiting around every corner. So even if you really DO have Bulbasaur and targeted me, I was protected.

My question for shadyforce was trap-bait, really. Looking at my PM, I knew there was only one Moltres in the game - and it made sense to me that the other two were in the game already as well, and singular, and therefore unrecruitable. Why, then, would shadyforce bother trying to catch Moltres? shadyforce answered the question as best he could without making me more suspicious.

No one had mentioned Chansey until Stewie revealed her ability in the thread on page 11. The thing is, if you were pro-town and completely oblivious to Pokemon, why not recruit one of the known Pokemon? They had some good abilities - Meowth for instance would be perfect since it catches Rockets. Shoot, I'd even say Squirtle would have been better than random since you knew it was a one-shot self-protect. Going after a not-so-well-known type that hadn't been mentioned in the thread seems arbitrary. You're trying too hard to make us think you're trying to be helpful. You were better off when you had Chansey as your initial Pokemon.

I'm sure we'll continue to go rounds. This is kinda fun.

[massive]

But that doesn't change the probability of him lying about USING Jigglypuff last night. And I'm not sure I believe that, of ALL the roles, Meowth and Psyduck are the "investigative" ones.

[massive]

Once again, just for information's sake, the Pokemon claims (in order of receiving/catching them), now edited to "correct" mathcam's claim:

Me: Moltres, Vulpix, Growlithe
Fletcher: Psyduck, Jigglypuff, Growlithe
mathcam: Diglett, Bulbasaur, Chansey
Someone: Shellder, Meowth, Ditto
Stewie: Kangaskhan, Drowzee, Chansey
shadyforce: Articuno, Abra

cam: Why use Bulbasaur on me? Was I really the most suspicious person in your mind at that time? Even after I basically caught PBuG in the mixup that caused him to blurt out that he was Team Rocket?

Someone: You still haven't explained why you made no night choice last night. Your initial "strange situation," you claim, was because you had both of the Pokemon that the dead people had. Then you amend that to having Shellder and not Squirtle, and I haven't seen you say whether Shellder is one-shot or not (although taking your "powerful pro-town role" comment, I'm assuming it's multiple use). If that's the case, then why NOT use Shellder? And if it's the case that he's one-shot, why NOT use Meowth last night? Saying you ran out of time is not an option; we need a real answer on this one.

Stewie: What about Someone's Shellder made you vote for him?

I think there's suspicious things about everyone. Stewie's Drowzee kill and Kangaskhan, Someone's non-use of his "powerful pro-town role", mathcam's ability to snag the doctor Pokemon despite having no reason to, Fletcher's Jigglypuff non-use and the "saving" of his one-shot investigation, shadyforce's attempt to catch a SECOND Legendary pokemon despite the knowledge that his own Legendary only was available once in the game. There's also the fact that NO ONE started out with a Chansey, the obvious choice for doctor Pokemon, but there were TWO investigative Pokemon initially, Meowth and Psyduck.

Man. This is hard.

[massive]

The thing is, Someone, that you are the only one who has a known investigative Pokemon, and you've already established your unwillingness to use it. You evidently think either Psyduck is going to solve the mystery by himself, or that one of us is lying and really DOES have an investigative Pokemon that will turn the tide.

Another question for you to duck, Someone: When you decided that Meowth was going to be the first Pokemon you recruited, didn't you think that being forced to reveal you had Meowth would make you completely suspicious in and of itself?

[massive]

All right, I really am close to voting for Someone, since either he's deliberately trying to duck the piognant questions, or he's just not paying attention.

For the record, pt 1: Fletcher, the person who you think could use Jigglypuff as a semi-investigative Pokemon, would then NOT use his Psyduck which he has stated is an investigative Pokemon. Everyone else's Pokemon are either known abilities or, in the case of Diglett, Kangaskhan, and Articuno, not inherently lending themselves to an investigative ability. (Kangaskhan, I'm assuming, has some sort of protective ability; knowing what Moltres does I'm assuming Articuno also does something heavily important; I'm not sure what Diglett does, but I'm not sure he's even really IN the game.) And no, Growlithe's ability is NOT an active investigative role like Meowth.

For the record, pt 2: None of us trainers have any ability aside from what our Pokemon can do. If you are insinuating that "other people" might actually claim to have some innate power, you are doing so with no proof and five dead trainers to look to for clues. If you are insinuating that YOU have some innate power, then I am guessing it is most likely TO KILL TOWNIES AT NIGHT.

For the record, pt 3: You still have not told us whether Shellder is a one-shot or not. You seem to be hinting that he's not, but still haven't given any reason why you DIDN'T use him last night to at least protect yourself. He is "very powerful" after all.

For the record, pt 4: In your last post, you "answered" my question but didn't exactly answer ANY of my questions. You seemed to be answering the most recent one (which was, in essence, "if you're a townie, why choose to catch THE MOST SUSPICIOUS Pokemon in the game, on night one, with no idea of his ability?") but then went on a tangent about claiming Shellder's ability while saying NOTHING about WHY you selected Meowth to try and catch.

Voting no lynch right now will not necessarily prolong the game. There were three deaths last night! One is Rocket, one is Ghastly, one apparently is Drowzee+Jigglypuff or some other sleeper. We NEED to cut down the deaths. We NEED to lynch a Rocket.

Right now there are two votes on Someone - Stewie and mathcam. I'm going to add mine tomorrow if some of these points aren't adressed to satisfaction.

[massive]

Ah, screw this. Two more things:

Someone blamed his inability to use either of his Pokemon on mole's impatience, when there was an entire day between when mole posted about the deadline and the start of the day, and during that day Someone made four posts in other threads. So he was here.

Someone also said he was worried about having to claim his Pokemon since Shellder had "the exact same ability" as Squirtle (p.12), except Someone had already said he used Shellder night one, and was going to use him again tonight (p.10) and has gone back to saying "similar" (this page).

I've been resisting moving any player up to three votes, but there's just too much incongruity.

vote Someone

[massive]

Sorry all, am out of town unexpectedly for work, and free time is at a premium. I will say that I did use Moltres last night and was disappointed to see that our Mod posted that all night actions were cancelled; I was really hoping to catch someone in a lie this morning.

Will be back on Monday. I figure I have some time since cam won't show up until then anyways.

[massive]

No, that's exactly it. I also hinted pretty hard that I knew that nothing would happen last night - it was because I knew what Moltres would do. The fire (and the non-deaths non-anything of last night) were caused by me.

Now, the problem is ... we've got no real new info. We still don't know what Someone's Pokemon/powers were, although we can assume he was telling the truth since he was a trainer. The only problem is that he was a little vague and we've not got the specifics.

Right now I'm leaning towards Stewie/mathcam as the remaining evil. I did a little research into the Game Boy game aspect of this game, and noticed that Giovanni (the Rocket leader) has Dugtrio as a Pokemon - and Dugtrio is an evolved form of Diglett, which we know mathcam has. I would have expected Stewie to have put that together WAY faster than I did, since he claims to have a large wealth of experience in the game.

[massive]

shadyforce: If Articuno had essentially the same ability as Moltres, why were you surprised when the night ended with no activities? Wouldn't you have known I said I was going to use Moltres, noticed the similarity with Articuno, and assumed that their abilities were the same? That's a huge disconnect in my mind.

I think there's got to be a way to protect whoever's left, and determine who's scum based on what happens. We have doctors and protectors ... I'm almost thinking no-lynch might be the way to go, but I need to think about it a little more and flesh out my thoughts, so I'll put this up and get response from shadyforce and go from there.

[massive]

People will say that that is assuming you are telling the truth. I'm trying to figure out a way that is agreeable to ALL the townies that will result in us winning.

[massive]

For the (continued) record:

Me: Moltres, Vulpix, Growlithe
Fletcher: Psyduck, Jigglypuff, Growlithe
mathcam: Diglett, Bulbasaur, Chansey
Stewie: Kangaskhan, Drowzee, Chansey
shadyforce: Articuno, Abra

So right now we have Stewie who can protect himself AND another player, mathcam who can protect another player, and the others of us have limited self-protection.

The Rockets have one self-kill and one Ghastly kill. Can we set up a ring that, by whatever death occurs overnight, the town will know who DIDN'T use their Pokemon properly?

I just get the feeling that I'm going to do all the Rockets' work for them if I start breaking this down too much. I'm getting the feeling like there's no way to protect EVERYONE, which is sadly what I want to do. But, as I said, I'm afraid I'm doing too much of the thinking. It looks like the Rockets will almost have to spend BOTH their kills on the same person tonight just to be sure of killing ANY ONE PERSON, and I can't see a way to protect everyone twice.

Right now I'm sadly leaning towards shady. Looking at my PM, I see WAY too much detail in shady's description of Articuno's ability. I only knew Moltres would stop all night actions - I didn't know what the flavor of the attack was or the name of the attack.

[massive]

I am trying to resolve something in my mind.

The first night, there were two kills. Both were seemingly attributed to Team Rocket.

The second night, of the three kills, only one was attributed to the Rockets. Was this because we lynched one of the Rockets? Is it possible that BOTH Rockets could kill independently each night, and that we're only dealing with one remaining Rocket?

The issue about Diglett and quick-attack is that mathcam suggested this exact idea on page 10. While I am curious what Diglett does, I don't think mathcam would suggest the possibility of it if it were actually his Pokemon's ability.

shadyforce, when you read this quote:

The converse problem is, if we don't lynch anyone today, we risk being in the same position we are in RIGHT NOW when tomorrow dawns. (p10)

Did no bells go off in your head? Or did you think I was referring to Articuno?

And we still haven't cleared up mlaker's death or the mystery of the double sleepers. I guess, thinking about it, that there CAN'T be just one Rocket left, since we have to have someone perform the Ghastly kill and someone use a sleeper Pokemon on mlaker so that Stewie can kill him.

This is just too confusing. There must be some evidence that proves someone guilty.

[massive]

Vulpix's ability prevents all Pokemon from targetting me at night (she scares them off for completeness's sake, although she's so cute I can't imagine). You targetted me with Bulbasaur, I scared him off with Vulpix.

Shadyforce: I had been hinting about Moltres's power in the posts leading up to that quote; mathcam had been pointedly asking about my precursory knowledge of "less kills happening overnight." That quote came directly after those, and should have, I would have thought, indicated exactly what Moltres's power was IF YOU HAD A POKEMON WITH THE SAME ABILITY. The question is, why didn't it trigger for you? You later on were surprised when Moltres had the same ability as Articuno.

[massive]

I just don't know. I'm still trying to figure out why Zapdos isn't in the game. If I remember right, shady announced that he had Articuno before I admitted to having Moltres ... up until that point, no one had a even a remotely powerful Pokemon, so why risk having the whole thing come down on you by claiming a Legendary and having it turn out to be the ONLY Legendary? Look at the starting Pokemon:

Me: Moltres
Fletcher: Psyduck
mathcam: Diglett
Stewie: Kangaskhan
shadyforce: Articuno

Boo: Meowth
Electra: Squirtle
PBuG: Grimer
Maverick: Magnemite
discer: Nidoran [male]
mlaker: Drowzee
Someone: Shellder

Articuno would stand out like a sore thumb if you stood it by itself next to all these Pokemon. It was the first one claimed in name that didn't evolve, and shady would have had to determine what his claimed initial Pokemon was WAY in advance, since on page three he delineates that his initial Pokemon is one-shot.

I understand the concerns about shadyforce's claims, but what you are accusing him off goes against what I perceive to be good Mafia play. And I perceive shadyforce to be a good Mafia player.

[massive]

Random thoughts:

With the possibility that Rockets would learn of and recruit a "killer" Pokemon (which they evidently have done) and allowing themselves the benefit of two kills per night, I think having some extremely powerful pro-town roles in from the beginning makes complete sense. ESPECIALLY since none of us started out with a doctor Pokemon (even though that was an easy one to guess).

(In research, I saw that Stewie's Kangaskhan AND my Moltres came out before Articuno. So I need to rethink that one point.)

Shadyforce also pushed the lynch of PBuG (with mathcam) while I was pushing for mlaker.

I was writing earlier about the possible Drowzee kill, and trying to figure that one out. I keep going back to Fletcher. He wouldn't vote on PBuG (FOSing him to "avoid quick Mafia lynching"). He wouldn't vote on Stewie towards the middle of day two.

Stewie: Vote on PBuG but only after his slip-up about initial Pokemon and his "go scum" comment.

Still trying to figure out where mathcam got the idea to recruit Chansey from.

I've almost got Stewie cleared mentally. In order for him to be scum, he would have had to have a partner in the Drowzee kill, AND there would have to be a third partner for the Ghastly kill. Mathematically it doesn't add up. Does that make sense? Night two, there are two Rockets left. One has to sleep mlaker so Drowzee can kill him. One has to kill with Ghastly. Now, this goes out the window if Stewie has some other killing Pokemon rather than Drowzee, but I think if the Mafia can make three kills no matter what tonight, we've got no chance.

I'm to thinking that Fletcher is the best candidate. Psyduck doesn't make sense as an investigative Pokemon, coupled with the possibility of lying about Jigglypuff use, AND the voting patterns. That's where I'm at right now.

[massive]

I'm sorry, but I just can't wrap my brain around shadyforce right now. There's too many little things that nag both ways about him, and I just can't get a solid read on what I think. Every time I start to sway towards voting him, I find myself thinking that the things that are being tossed towards shady in terms of suspicion just aren't things I think he would do.

I mean, I watch for slip-ups. That's like the bread-and-butter of Mafia games. Like the one PBuG slipped into earlier this game. Slip-ups are one thing. Obvious gaffes of play are totally different. So either I'm overestimating shady's ability, or he's just innocent.

Right now, I think lynching Fletcher is the right call. I agree that the most likely pairing, if Fletcher is Rocket, is probably shady/Fletcher. Fletcher and I are the only two able to kill shady at this point, who haven't done so, and I know I'm innocent ... the problem is, Fletcher's not even making an attempt to disperse suspicion or point fingers - he just said "I'm not going to vote" a couple of times as if trying to let us know how he'd vote without actually doing it, meanwhile prolonging our own conversation and letting us talk ourselves in circles. I'll even move that direction:

vote Fletcher

but I want to be able to say that I think Stewie/Fletcher is as good a possibility as shady/Fletcher to me at this point.

Cam: Don't forget that your "one vote from lynch" theory only applies if Stewie is innocent, which we don't know yet.

Gah, this is gonna suck. I'm so totally dead in the morning.

[massive]

Well, that puts us in twilight and doesn't assuage any of my suspicions. Since we'll probably have a bit before mole shows up, do we want to discuss overnight strategies?

[massive]

There's no point in catching a Psyduck. Whatsoever. We can't use it tonight, only tomorrow night, and there won't BE a tomorrow night. Gah. In fact, there's probably no point in catching ANY Pokemon overnight since I can't think of any way there will be one more night unless the Mafia are REALLY dumb (which obviously they aren't, we lynched two townies in a row based on their "suspicions") ...

[massive]

As far as I know, yes. I'll look at the PM again, but I'm pretty sure. Having the ability to stop multiple nights in a row would be much too powerful.

... having looked at it, I'll go ahead and post my findings. It doesn't say specifically that it is one-shot, but it is implied in the wording of the description of Moltres's ability. I can ask mole for clarification once we go to night, but I don't guess that helps anyone really.

If shady's end scene is true, then we probably oughta make "why Abra couldn't save Maverick night two" a top discussion topic for tomorrow.

[massive]

Yeah, we've gone through the "double-attack" aspect and the "quick-attack" explanation, but I just think with the added info and currently known list of players, it may be something that contains a hidden clue.

[massive]

What you mean "we", pale face?

[massive]

and

Abra

Abra will automatically (you do not have to select it as your pokémon for its ability to work each night) protect you from danger if anyone tries to kill you. This ability can only be used once, on the first time you are attacked.

I read it as "nighttime protection" ("work each night"). "Attacked" also seems to indicate nighttime ability.

[massive]

Well, I for one am still trying to figure out if it's night, day, twilight, what? It seems like it should be night but I don't know how skipping lynches work.

[massive]

And Stewie - please note that Abra says that the ability works whether or not you pick it to, kinda like your Kangaskhan (claimed) ... so (assuming it actually IS the work of Abra) shadyforce may not have had a choice in whether or not Abra teleported him away.

[massive]

Another reason mathcam's protection of me didn't work is because I used Growlithe ... I figured either (a) I would be protected and gain some valuable insight into who attacked me or (b) you guys would see Growlithe's ability and realize I used it to try and get more information. Neither happened.

Was a fun game. I had Fletcher nailed, mathcam had shadyforce nailed ... we just couldn't agree to both be right. *laugh*