Worst Role Mafia - GAME OVER!

[saulres]

It's not a bastard game, though, is it?

So knocking out a guaranteed mafia is not a bad choice.

Vote: 2birds1stone

[saulres]

I didn't think those could be run in this forum?

But okay, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt for now. But if he flips scum, you're next on the list.

Unvote

[saulres]

Who are you referring as the 'you're'?

You.

You're the one who corrected my misinterpretation. I see that as a buddying move, not necessarily a town one. Especially with you being one of those who didn't vote for him in the first place.

[saulres]

Just fluff sorry. forced to post this.

Why were you forced to post that in one post, but not in any others?

[saulres]

Why did you unvote and not replace the vote?

Sigh.

I always get this. Always. Usually it's from RVS, now it's from this.

I vote when I have a solid reason to vote someone. If it were RVS (which it wasn't, because of the mod-revealed alignment) I wouldn't have dropped it. But with the strong possibility of it being a fake-mod-reveal, I want to minimize my contribution to what could easily be an easy mislynch. And now I don't have anything solid enough to put a vote on.

I hate D1. I'm always,

always

thought of as scummy for my early votes, and only once have I ever been scum -- in a game eaten by the tigers, which I replaced out of.

Someday I'll actually be scum and someone will get me on D1 and be oh-so-proud of themselves, when it's really just my play style

[saulres]

Saulres:
[quote="In post 59, Teleporting Speed Hippos"There are plenty of others you could have tackled GIVEN THAT if you believe it to be a bluff/bastard, that has implications elsewhere.

I'm sorry I missed commenting on your point there. But the misquote made it so I can't even understand it any more, and I'm quite bleary-eyed. Could you try again? Thanks.

[saulres]

I think I should be lynched tomorrow, if we're going to lynch me at all. It gives me ample time to be vigged/dayvigged/

otherwise eliminated

.

I guess that's the one, huh?

No wonder this game has a 21-day Day 1. We keep resetting it.

I should be able to get really caught up sometime in the next 24-48 hours. I hope.

[saulres]

Caught up yay!

Now to process. I took my notes alphabetically by player name (as compared to chronologically) when I thought there was something worth noting, so that's how I'll present them here. I'm also not going to post all my notes because I always find it annoying when other people do it.

pedit: It got long, so I'm putting people in spoiler tags, with reads (if I have any) following. If I mention you please do look at your area because I may have questions for you.

Spoiler: Amrun

There is merit to the theory that allowing scum to obfuscate things is only the dissemination of red herrings in a situation like this.

English please?

our flips have seemed to correspond to the roles

2birds might not have. The role might have been "mod-confirmed scum who flips as town". How can you say that so assuredly unless you're scum and know who town is?

FoS: Amrun

Spoiler: BBMolla

I like your post restriction, and you're doing a very entertaining job with it.

I'm not thinking recruiting someone new is helpful if you can't guarantee alignment -- just more confusion. Is it required?

Spoiler: CandyCornVampire

What's your post restriction?

Also your vote is malformed in 196, it has to be bold and at the start of a line.

How did you miss that 2birds was killed before you posted that?

Captain Haddock: Your 234 feels townie. Leaning town.

Spoiler: Chimera

Why can't I live to LyLo? My votes are only restricted with an active vote against me (and only the most recent one must remain active). In a lylo situation scum can't direct my vote in their favor

But if you're scum with that ability, in LyLo it lets you say you're town and not need to justify at all your vote.

Spoiler: Gimmicky Alt

I will avoid this wagon for now since there are 8 votes already, no need to add another.

I like the way no one gives you shit for that, but when I take my vote off for essentially the same reason, I get called scum

reason pending

Looking forward to that reason...

Spoiler: IceGuy

Regarding 2b1s: My role is actually a heavily modified version of the one in the thread: the original version had a non-town wincon and a different mechanic, only name and basic idea are the same. So I was skeptical of the announcement in the beginning, and am somehow inclined to believe him.

You're claiming a role which was specifically non-town, and then using 2birds as an excuse why it isn't this time? Add that to "I was skeptical of the announcement in the beginning" but you did vote him, and it all feels very contrived to protect a scumclaim.

Your point on Chimera in 265 is interestingly valid, though -- if he flips town we lynch RedPanda tomorrow? Or you're bussing him to gain towncred...

Fos: IceGuy

Spoiler: moneybags

LOL MCQUEEN.
I THINK.
WE HAVE.
SAME ROLE.

I still don't understand why you think you have the same role.

Spoiler: Oversoul

If people have more negative aspects to claim like Maniacal we should temper our rush onto Birds's lynch at least until Sunday has passed.

That feels like scum trying to look town.

I agree with the Hippo vote.

His vote was on me, why didn't you vote me also?

And for any person believing 2birds, please reevaluate your gullibility index.

Right back at you.

Mod, did the scum get pregame time to talk in their QT?

Why do you care about this? That's a weird question. Trying to not look scum?

I think Mass Claim Day 2 might be a good idea

So your scumbuddies know who to kill?

VOTE: Oversoul

Spoiler: Phillamon

I'm tempted to start rhyming/giffing too, in solidarity, as well as because it looks fun.

Please don't.

That rhyme seems quite laboured, but I'll let it slide
and you're right. Your role seems to good for the inside
of a "Worst roles here!" game. I'd suspect your recruit.
Do you have to? Or can you just choose not to shoot
your powers of recruitment. Or if you should choose
not to bring one in would it be playing to lose?
This posting restriction you have is most fun-
but I will not use it once we've finished night one.
For a scholar of yours would most certainly rhyme.
I guess we'll find out in the fullness of time...

I asked nicely!

Spoiler: Pokerface

@Mod, who has not posted yet

Why did you ask this instead of just looking for yourself?

Spoiler: ShadowGirl

So why vote him?

That question feels townie to me.

if we're going to lynch 2birds then it should be today, in case he is mafia and has a night ability.

@2birds: Do you have any sort of night ability?

Wait, what? If you thought he was scum, why fish for an answer you wouldn't necessarily believe anyway?

I'm not seeing your role as a "Worst" one. What makes it bad?

@Mod

Can you remove this post if it's not part of the game please?

Spoiler: Teleporting Speed Hippos

Role related reasons.

Expound on this please.

You're saying I should have placed another vote? Did you read me at 60?

Isn't it obvious from both the wagon and the reaction to GNR's shot that 2birds needed killing? Asking permission just leaves a bad taste in the mouth. If it goes wrong, it wasn't YOUR fault, and if it goes right you can seem like the hero. No, I don't like this at all.

This feels like distancing. If I though ShadowGirl was scum (or if she flips), you'd be next on the list.

again? Look at 60

I'm sick and tired of people thinking I'm scum because I don't know how to start the game. If I unvote, I'm called scum, if I vote someone else, I'm called scum, if I leave my vote, I'm called scum. I can't win for losing

Some day, someone will tell me what I should do in early game to not look scummy. And then I'll do that, and I'll be called scum for it... (For more on this, see my comment to Gimmicky Alt)

[saulres]

Your point on Chimera in 265 is interestingly valid, though -- if he flips town we lynch RedPanda tomorrow?

Yes (unless something relevant happens).

I only have two problems with this.

1) Masons on the wiki are specifically pro-town. This is tempered quite a bit by my examination of the Worst Roles thread which indicated otherwise, so I guess the wiki is wrong? (Or I misread it?) The use of "mason" in this game is meant to be "neighbor"?

2) If your'e scum (and you lean scum to me), we risk killing two townies on your sayso. I'm not willing to jump on this yet.

[saulres]

Good point. Chimera, what was the point of that vote?

[saulres]

@Mod: I didn't know (or possibly remember?) he had deadthread access. It was just confusing me when I read through. Especially if BB can recruit. In this game for all we know his presence is actually part of the game and we have to lynch him too. In a game like this added confusion is bad.

He doesn't need a post in this thread to find it. He can bookmark it.

[saulres]

saulres, I was specifically referring to the Survivor and Jester flips, as I referred to earlier. Nice clip, there.

No clip. That was the extent of that post.

But looking back, I think you mean I clipped because I didn't take your other two before that into account? Guilty on that I guess. I get interrupted when I read and maybe that was one of the times. Or, it's a scumslip. IGMEOY.

How about the fact that this is worst roles mafia and there's no point for masons unless there's something terrible about them.

And that's why BB asked if there were more to it than simply masons. A reasonable question in this game.

[saulres]

@dana: Or they're alignment-confirmed private talking partners with their own particular worst roles.

It's setup speculation. I love doing setup speculation, but I've learned the hard way that basing lynches off of them isn't always in town's interest.

pedit: Oh yeah

So ML pulled Chimera's vote away intentionally? What would be the rationale for that? Have to look into it.

[saulres]

I want to play. Fun!

How about I say, son?

Or there's no way, hon.

[saulres]

My argument is that thinking it's a bastard bluff should have prompted you to investigate who was trying to take advantage of that fact and

therefore given you a solid reason to vote someone

.

That's your opinion. It's not mine. That doens't mean I'm scum, it means I play differently than you do.

Is it a habit for you to say if [so and so] flips [whatever], then [so-so] is next? Because that's the second time you've done it.

Then I guess it is a habit

Sometimes (often?) I have null reads on someone, which will only go one way or the other based on associative tells with someone else -- which I can't get until that other person flips. In the case you're quoting, I have a null read on Hippos, but if you flip scum (which I doubt, because I have a townread on you) I'd be looking for additional relationships between him and you.

As to why I mention it, would you rather I don't mention where I think people should look for connections? I've been helped in scumhunting by dead townies who posted their associations (and other thoughts), and then when I'm rereading after more information comes out, I suddenly see an association they mentioned (or something else) and catch scum. So why wouldn't I want to do the same for others?

[saulres]

it would make a lot more sense as a duplicating alignment role

No it wouldn't. It would be very broken. A transformed scum could just out their scumpartners.

[saulres]

there are no other aspects to my role

Actually there is: Whether it's one-shot, once-per-day, x times, etc.

[saulres]

Umm, no. I'm missing it. Spell it out for the dumb ones.

[saulres]

Captain asked Candy Corn about her post restriction (role fishing).

Oh I see. I didn't think that was rolefishing because I don't equate post restrictions with roles. And especially in this game, an annoying post restriction != a bad role, but is probably laid on top of a bad role.

[saulres]

Phillamon's role makes me uncomfortable

Why?

I don't know what to make of him yet. If it's a real claim it does seem townie. If it's a fakeclaim it's a good one to discourage investigations. Of course...

I know I'm a newbie, so shouldn't know it

Playing the newbie card in a newbie game is one thing. Playing it defensively in a non-newbie game is also one thing. But playing it

in advance

over something no one called you out on? What's your thinking here?

[saulres]

Hmm...

I don't know what happens if scum target me, I will ask the mod

It makes sense that as scum, he wouldn't have thought to ask what would happen if scum targeted him...

I'll have to ISO him and see if there's a strong enough case.

[saulres]

I'll respond to Oversoul tomorrow when I have more time -- there seems to be a lot to say.

[saulres]

I may respond in more detail to the rest tomorrow, but tonight I only have time for little things.

The way your post here is formatted to address many players kinda bothers my eyes. Do you think that format is better than the one I'm using here?

I don't, but I'd never seen your method used. It's quite nice and I'll be sure to use it in the future if I have a need for such a long player-by-player one again.

[saulres]

How come I didn't get pedit?

Oversoul, that is an awesome find. I've caught scum before when they make something up and then forget what they made up and make up something contradictory. Every time I found those, actually, I caught scum.

So...

Vote: GNR

[saulres]

13) Players will be prodded after 72 hours of not posting, or

after 48 hours if a player requests a prod.

@Mod

: Requesting prods of numberQ, Agent_Ireland, and Shiidaji.

[saulres]

Shiidaji's not playing.

I used the Activity Overview. Yet another reason to remove Shiidaji's post.

Forgot about Ireland, thanks for reminding me. Still leaves Q though.

[saulres]

Thank you, and Happy Scumday!

[saulres]

Oh right I owe Oversoul some responses.

Saul:

If people have more negative aspects to claim like Maniacal we should temper our rush onto Birds's lynch at least until Sunday has passed.

That feels like scum trying to look town.

Please explain. I didn't want a quicklynch if more people had negative aspects to claim until after Easter, which is when a lot of people would be away.

I was looking at people who didn't vote for the mod-confirmed scum, and their reasons for doing so, and had some gut feelings. I have the same kind of note for Robtonick's first line in 18 (but not enough other notes to comment on -- if you want, I can post my entire catchup notes, I still have them).

I agree with the Hippo vote.

His vote was on me, why didn't you vote me also?

Not the post I was referring to, buddy.

His first post was voting Hippos, who at the time I thought was acting scummy. Nice of you to be so self centered.

Oh I see now. I hope you can see where I got my confusion from. I thought you had stopped responding to him and were making a comment on something else you saw.

And for any person believing 2birds, please reevaluate your gullibility index.

Right back at you.

And what does this mean? Are there actual facts being presented in this "case"? Or are you just trying to slander my name?

It meant: You said that anyone who believed 2birds was innocent was gullible. I thought that was kind of a snide comment given the discussion I had about the bastardness of the game with ShadowGirl so I thought you should have a taste of it too since he flipped town. I'm not usually snarky like that, and I apologize.

Mod, did the scum get pregame time to talk in their QT?

Why do you care about this? That's a weird question. Trying to not look scum?

No, it is actually a very important question. The reason I asked is if the scum had pregame talk they would know each other's roles and could then pull some sort of manipulation off. At the time, Elmo hadn't been flipped although I suspected him of being scum. I wanted to see if GNR was trying to shoot scum "randomly" in order to gain credit through a constructed plan.

I've seen scum ask the same question in other games, in an effort to look townie. So that was the 2nd thing I saw which made me think that you fit that category.

I think Mass Claim Day 2 might be a good idea

So your scumbuddies know who to kill?

Nice try again but no. Basically half of the playerlist has been confirmed, or outted, or claimed something about their role, I suspect after Night 1 even more people will claim so I don't really see the harm in a mass claim on Day 2. No one has been expressly against it, but I apparently have two people who think it is suspicious.

And that was the third. Mass claims to get rid of useful power roles is extremely useful for scum, not for town.

I understand now that you're going to get angry and vote for anyone who puts you over your "magical vote power". I suggest,

if

you're town, that you calm that down, because that attitude is not very pro-town from where I'm sitting.

[saulres]

Oops. That last comment was meant for Hippos, not Oversoul.

[saulres]

What's the usual distribution of scum in a 25-player game? I haven't played large games before.

[saulres]

We have? That's not ongoing?

If we have, it's been a smaller one for sure, or maybe I replaced in after it was down to fewer players? Because I sure never played in a 25-player game before.

[saulres]

a smaller one for sure, or maybe I replaced in after it was down to fewer players

16 players, I replaced in after 2 were dead. (Fun game though.)

Still doesn't give me an idea of how many scum to expect in a 25-player game.

[saulres]

Just vote GNR and it'll be fine. He scumslipped.

[saulres]

Why do you think it wasn't a scumslip? He made something up once, and forgot what it was when he said it the second time. Then when he did respond, he didn't even

try

to defend it.

If he's not scum then he's too derpy and it's better to get rid of him early than have him in LyLo.

I did play one game with him where he was scum and kinda derpy, but that was long ago and from I've seen elsewhere I thought his play had improved. So I really think this was a slip and not a derp move.

[saulres]

I'm very bummed BB's PR was fake.
You know what else is a lie? The cake.

In other news, I just found out I'm going to be

V/LA Thursday through Monday

.

[saulres]

I'm sorry Tierce for the confusion right here

I corrected my mistake, but

could not directly inform you my dear

.

We actually talked about this last night,

Something in the above two doesn't scan. Either you did talk, in which case BB could inform, or the recruitment didn't start until today, in which case you couldn't talk last night.

Explain please.

[saulres]

Last night IRL, saul

Ah, sorry. I'm used to "last night" meaning game night, not IRL night.

Thanks for explaining.

[saulres]

I still don't understand, because BB never explained it well, how he went from this:

However, I must note, it specifically says they become
"Neighbors" with me, so uh, yeah, um...
I probably shouldn't use my role, which is a shame
I wanted to bring some others into this game

to Tierce being in the game.

In addition, the role as presented is confusing me. If he's town and brought in another townie, that's not bad for town. If he's scum and brought in another scum, that's not bad for scum. So one must be town and one scum in order for it to be a bad role, right?

So then I have to look at the motivation behind being scared it would bring in someone of opposite alignment, and then actually pushing the button to do so.

Possibility one: He knows what alignment it would bring in. As town, then, he would only do it if he knew it was bringing in town. But he made it quite clear he had no idea, so that's ruled out. As scum, he might risk it, because he'd know if the person he brought in joined his scum QT, and otherwise he could just send his scumbuddies after her. So if he knows what alignment he'll bring in, he's scum for having done so.

What if he doesn't know? I have a role which I don't know exactly what it does. I didn't think it was pro-town to experiment, so I haven't done what I can do. If I were scum, I would've been tempted though, but as town I'm being extremely cautious with it.

So I see nothing but scum motivation behind pulling in another player.

Vote: BB

[saulres]

"Bad" as in "bad for a normal game of Mafia", so the role fits here.

So you're saying that I, too, should do something which might be detrimental to town "just because"?

Also

Tierce as town

is a force to be reckoned with.

But how do you

know

she's town? Again, I'm seeing scum thinking behind your posting.

@Tierce: What would have happened if you had turned down the role? I mean, if you didn't sign up for the game in secret, and suddenly you're told "You're playing it", if you didn't want to -- did you have an opt out option?

[saulres]

Oh sorry. You're arguing that if you were scum, you'd have brought in someone other than Tierce, because she'd be a strong town player if she weren't on your side?

What about the converse? Do you find her weak as scum, so that if you're town you're not really risking bringing in someone strong as scum?

[saulres]

I'm trying, I really am, to see BB's point. But understand I have no way of knowing his alignment, so I'm trying to look at it from both sides. Can you try that too Tierce?

He's saying you're a town force to be reckoned with, but that's not an alignment-tell on him: If he's town, yay for him, if he's scum, just kill you off after today. I hadn't found anything since he changed his mind and brought you in that I could justify him having done as town, especially when I look at what I would have done if I had an ability which could be either good or bad for town. Which I do. And I didn't use it, because I don't think it's pro-town to experiment with what could be a bad thing. I see his actions in the same light, which is why I think they're scum-driven.

Having said that,

Judging by the average ratio or town:scum, I found it more likely that Tierce would be town, especially due to the possible imbalance adding another scum member would cause.

This makes some sense and I could see this as a town motivation that I didn't consider, because I wasn't really thinking of balance. I'm not convinced, mind you, but it's a possible reason.

In other news:

Antihero replaces Candy Corn Vampire.

10 posts elsewhere for this replacement since he replaced in, and nothing here, not even a "Hello". I'll need to look at CCV's slot tomorrow.

Also numberQ has two posts, including what he says was the hammer, so that needs to be looked into as well. Plus, of course, Oversoul. And I'd like to look at the people who were saying "No, the case against GNR was bad" (hint: It wasn't) because that group could easily consist of scum who knew he'd flip town and were "defending" him for towncred. So that's my agenda for tomorrow.

[saulres]

I'll need to look at CCV's slot tomorrow.

Also numberQ has two posts, including what he says was the hammer, so that needs to be looked into as well. Plus, of course, Oversoul. And I'd like to look at the people who were saying "No, the case against GNR was bad" (hint: It wasn't) because that group could easily consist of scum who knew he'd flip town and were "defending" him for towncred. So that's my agenda for tomorrow.

Agenda completed. Results thusly:

CCV

's slot seems town, or at least I see nothing scummy about it.

NumberQ

- need more content. Two posts does not scum make, but another "come in to hammer" either is indicative of a scum or, well, a worst role. But even if it is a role ("has to hammer when the option is there") then he needs to be removed before LyLo at the latest, so the scum can't use him to quicklynch. I'll be putting a vote here if he's the next hammer.

Oversoul

: I find it interesting that his anger over being voted seems to parallel that of Hippo's. Possibly a connected 3rd-party group? Lookit:

if I get less votes than the night number, I remain unsigned which gives me special power X.

I could see that "special power" not being particular to Hippo, but rather, to an entire 3rd-party group, where they collectively get something if they meet some kind of voting criteria.

Regardless, what I completely don't understand is how he went from "I personally do not find BB scummy" to thinking that because Tierce is voting for Oversoul,

BB

is worthy of a vote, especially instead of Tierce. I just don't follow that flow

at all

.

Now onto those who said the case against GNR's was bad. There were two: Shadowgirl and Red Panda.

Shadowgirl

, who could have commented after the wagon started, completely avoided saying anything about it until 471 where she thought the hammer was done and says "despite the somehow 'incredibly obvious' tells that he's scum, I'm totally calling that he's town".

In 479 she says "you would think that he would try and pay attention to not contradict himself". Yes, Shadowgirl, I do think that if he were scum he would try not to contradict himself, and that's why I (and others iirc) called it a "slip", as compared to "an intentional action". And I've caught scum who did exactly that, slip because they weren't paying attention, and contradicted themselves.

Shadowgirl, why did you not say anything about the wagon until after you thought it was over?

[Shadowgirl's V/LA ends when mine begins, so we probably won't be able to discuss for over a week. Still plenty of time before the deadline]

Red Panda

was in an argument with TSP most of the wagon, but gives his reasons for not voting in 422. I'm not sure whether he means ISO #10 or 11 when he refers to "eleventh post" but at least he says he likes the Elmo kill, giving a reason for thinking GNR was town (unlike Shadowgirl who gave no reason).

I do find a contradiction, though: In 203 he says he's going to vote Agent_Ireland "tomorrow", which is today -- so where's the vote?

Also, Red Panda, does chimera's leaving the game change your opinion of his slot being scum? And is Foxace36 posting in your QT? Because he sure ain't posting here...

[Full disclosure: When ISOing Red Panda I didn't look at the arguments back and forth with Hippo, because of Hippo's non-town flip]

[saulres]

I don't understand. TSH is dead, why would anyone be sending him a message?

And what restriction are you referring to? No matter, the answer is no -- I'm under no restriction that I'm aware of.

[saulres]

So wait, you're using the hypothesis I came up with to say "Hey! Do you have that hypothesized thing?"

That's just -- weird. I'll ISO you next. (With so few posters, I have to look somewhere. But then again, I guess you do too.)

[saulres]

As for 2birds, I just had a thought: How does vigjester sound? As in, he wins if he's vigged?

This is a nonsensical hypothesis. Why would the mod confirm someone likely to draw a vig kill and give them a win like that?

I would vote you here and now, but it's not worth the effort on this device to get square brackets up. Also, you're basically confirmed innocent,

WTF is that?

That was directed to GNR. You said you'd vote him if brackets were easy to do on your device, and in the same post you called him (from out of the blue with no explanation) that he was confirmed innocent. Makes. No. Sense.

Would it be scummy to try and detonate Moneybags?

Protip from someone who's been there as a newbie: Don't ask people if something would be scummy. That tends to make them think you're scum, whether you are or you aren't.

I'm up to your ISO 14, where you tell town PRs not to target you. I still haven't seen anything resembling scumhunting. It takes until your ISO 360, where you just QFT CCV's suspicions of Haddock. Then in 391, you call him your strongest scumread. At that point, it looks like he's not only your

only

scumread, but the only read you've expressed

at all

.

For a quick reference, did anyone get ditto'd? Cause that'd be a really easy way to prove that I'm not a third party here and now, I imagine

Explain 1) How this would prove you're not a 3rd party, and 2) Why you didn't say it would prove you're not scum?

And that's it. 41 posts, nothing to show for it?

Unvote

Vote: Phillamon

pedit: Oh look I'm not the only one. And make that 42 posts. Although I should respond to that last one: It would confirm buddies? Huh? Don't you think, if I were what you're accusing me of, I would already know who my buddies are?

[saulres]

I voted him yesterday. Got shit for it, and I've had enough negativity on this site for a while. So I figured instead, I'd let him try to defend himself again. Plus, that's all setup speculation. I'd rather focus on what I see as more actual scummy behavior. Like phillamon's.

[saulres]

if voting for someone gives you grief from other players--you need to analyze it where it's coming from, not back down.

I did analyze where it came from -- that's where my whole "3rd party party line" theory's coming from.

As to your case against him, it's a little tough for me because remember where I moved my vote off of -- BBMolla. Who brought you into the game. I'm not convinced about either of your alignments, and your defending of BB so strongly, when all you claim is a neighbor relationship with him, makes me suspicious of you. But I only have so much time (and that's going to be the story this week, leading up to my V/LA) and I had a published agenda from yesterday that I wanted to get through. I did that, but didn't see anything strong enough in what I looked at today to place a vote.

But then phil came in with his bizarre accusation so I chose to look at him and let the BB/Tierce/Oversoul/whoever else storyline lay dormant until more people than you commented on it. And then I found scummy activity, and I only have one vote, so I'm trying to use it effectively.

[saulres]

I am not a third party.

See this? Again, hung up on denying 3rd-partyhood, when we're calling him scum. He's not worried about appearing scum, he's worried about appearing 3rd party.

It makes no sense.

[saulres]

Green Goo: Any player who targets the Green Goo with a night action becomes Green Goo themselves. The first Goo is a survivor (neutral); players infected by the goo may or may not become survivors.

[saulres]

No 500 errors yet? Wow. With the length of these posts...

My role supremely messes up anybody who has a decent role and tries to use it on me. I'm not gonna nameclaim, but trust me-

cops, docs, vigs

? You don't want to target me.

anybody

who targets me will turn into me, and the action will fail.

Do you see a limitation there, or do you see "

everyone

who targets me"? I see the latter. His subsequent posts keep reading that way, until 354 where he first hints that maybe there's a limitation. It wasn't until 619 that he said it was one-shot, and that's over 100 posts after day 2 started.

Words cannot even begin to describe the amount of "what the $@#$!?". I've thought up of some pretty weird ass theories. I've seen some pretty weird ass theories. But that. THAT takes the cake.

Heh. Yeah, I'm kind of known with people I play with for having crazy ideas. But I'll tell you this -- Kublai Khan wouldn't have his scummy if I had put credence into one of my "out there" ones -- which turned out to be true. If I had stuck with it, he would have lost, and Amrun and I (and the rest of the town) would have won. So I'm not going to dismiss this one until it's disproved -- especially considering what kind of game it is.

Then followed by your next post after both Dana and Amrun vote Phil and... I'm getting suspicious of your slot.

1) You're

getting

suspicious? Man, I can't wait to see what you're like when you

are

suspicious.

Oh wait...

2) Yeah, that post? You saw the pedit? It takes time to do an ISO, I was building that post, then when I hit preview, I saw the two votes. Somehow I knew someone was going to call me on it, but just try to do the ISO yourself and write what I was thinking, and then look at the timestamps. I mean, seriously.

Checking on a few more things elsewhere, then going to sleep for the night.

[saulres]

As for Amrun's criticisms, what I had personally meant by "anybody" was that it didn't matter about their alignment- as in,

implying NKs were included

in the role's limitations. I guess I had a poor choice of words there, but I was careful not to outright lie.

...

Anyone

targeting me loses their role and becomes a ditto too.

I don't know what happens if scum target me

,

Confirm Vote Phillamon

[saulres]

Oh. Yes, I see that now. The perils of searching. Sorry.

Still doesn't make me change my mind that you need to go, though. If your claim is true, the only way to confirm your alignment is to lose the confirming ability, meaning you're a LyLo liability. Plus of course there's the whole "probably a survivor" thing making you even more of a LyLo liability.

[saulres]

Why is a survivor a LyLo liability?

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Survivor "Play Advice"

Even if you don't believe me, You must concede that the role would have been changed, to make it a worst role...

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Survivor "Use and Power"

[saulres]

@Mod: Prods please?

numberQ, GimmickyAlt

[saulres]

"hilarity"?

With a self-exploding townie, I'm starting to think that BB's logic on balance could be correct. If we start seeing scum being removed by non-normal methods, though, it'll be time to revisit.

Meanwhile, this doesn't change my Phil read.

Vote: Phillammon

[saulres]

What?

BB was arguing (setup speculation) that his thinking in bringing in Tierce was that, given the dayvig and the modkill-goddess, for balance purposes it would be more likely that who he brought in would be town, rather than scum.

Moneybags was town and exploded, taking us down another townie. BB's argument (that his role exists to put the balance back) got stronger in my eyes when we were set up with at least two townies who were destined not to make it -- the guilty child, and the exploder.

[saulres]

Looks like I'm toast.

Four votes out of 11 does not a lynch make.

This Phil wagon sucks testicles.

Why? I see two things which make it a good choice:

1) Scummy behavior
2) If claim is true, detrimental to town.

[saulres]

Nothing in here to convince you? He's active lurking.

I disagree with Tierce on that comment, BTW. In my experience I've caught several scum lurking. It depends what they're doing elsewhere on site. If they're not doing anything, let them live. If they're posting up a storm elsewhere but not here -- that's always been, for me, a scumtell.

[saulres]

Hey look what I found. Just putting it out here.

You are a

Player Recruiter

.

At night, PM the mod with the name of a mafia player not in the game and the mod will PM them a random alignment & role.

You win if 5 people actually join the game this way and start playing.

[saulres]

Tierce, I wouldn't have asked you to, slumlord.

slumlord?

/prod recieved

And?

So I'm just gonna VOTE: NumberQ

Why that particular flaked player?

@BB: I'm backing off my scumread on your because I'm being swayed by some of your arguments (in particular, those in 639). I still don't think it was pro-town to have brought in someone like Tierce based completely on speculation that she'd be town-aligned, though. Better to bring in someone who when they're scum, they're obvscum, in my opinion.

@Tierce: Convince me about Oversoul. (Although don't, really, because this is close to my last post, excluding short ones, in this game before V/LA, especially with the extended deadline.)

@Amrun: I don't understand why the vote magnet is game-breaking for scum. Especially in this game.

[saulres]

What did you mean by slumlord?

[saulres]

Okay, catch-up (more or less) post.

@

Pokerface

871: You think Phil's not-town, so why no vote?

foxace36

: Bah. First few posts were useless. Comes back with OMGUS on theam, and then doesn't even have him on his scumlist. Useless slot still useless.

@RedPanda

In 926 you say foxace posted in the QT, but nothing about him. What's the feeling?

Fox

, what's your feeling on panda from the QT?

I think we're putting too much emphasis on scumhunting in this game.

WTF? What

should

we putting emphasis on, if not finding scum?

Tierce

is feeling more townie to me, especially given, now that I can talk about it, Newbie 1209. Her willingness to jump into this game and give it so much attention tells me she has a town role, or at least a non-scum one. I may be sheeping her going forward, but not today (Phil needs to die.)

Why does Phil need to die?

Well, I've answered that already, but even in the new stuff there are problems. In 707 he says "don't sheep or parrot", but that's exactly what he's doing with his votes of Oversoul. He's protecting himself at all costs while ignoring what he's saying about others. In 906 he says he doesn't think he's a problem in LyLo despite at least one and iirc multiple explanations of how dangerous a survivor is in LyLo.

Phil

, in 909 you say "Saulres looks off for excessive reliance on nonstandard techniques- more importantly, ones he knows can't be turned back at him." -- I don't understand what you mean by "nonstandard techniques" so I'm not sure how to reply to that. I'll look at 909 more later (and 941 too, something's bugging me about it that I can't put my finger on) but I have another game I need to get to.

While catching up I was thinking the same thing about the "vanished" argument so nothing to add there.

I'm very disheartened by the lack of activity in this game.

@Mod

: Prod ManiacalLemon please?

Did I miss anything anyone thought I should comment on?

[saulres]

What about Amrun's play makes you want to sheep her? In particular, as compared to the rest of us on that wagon.

And what specifically feels bogus about Phil's claim?

[saulres]

--B. The masons have some worst role part of them so that it makes sense that they're masons and that the worst is for different reasons.

I have to vote for anyone who votes me until someone else votes me or the vote is removed.

I'm not just a mason. I'm a _ _ _ _ _ _ , _ _ _ _ _ _ , _ _ _ , Mason.

So are we done with the "one of them is scum because they're both masons" argument yet?

[saulres]

Forgot until I got the quote above. I remember Chimera claimed something, just not that, so when I saw it, it confused me.

[saulres]

Sigh. Even though I think Oversoul is likely scum, I'd rather vote for Phil, because an investigative role could check Oversoul but not Phil (based on claims). And Phil has to go at some point before LyLo, and can't be vigged, so we have to lynch him. Giving our investigative roles (if we have any that actually work) a chance to check Oversoul while getting rid of someone we're going to have to get rid of anyway just makes sense to me.

And before it's suggested that ShadowGirl have Phil modkilled: I would agree, but only if it meant she lost her ability. Day-vig-ing is one thing, but taking away a player's opportunity to win or lose on their own merits just sucks. Especially someone who's put some effort into the game (which you have to admit Phil has, with 72 posts, even if many of them were pure fluff).

[saulres]

*faceplant*

No, he's a third-party survivor, according to his claim. He's only saying he's town so he won't be lynched.

Or do you have some inside information?

[saulres]

Do you mean you want me to use my ability on someone knowingly that I would in turn to lose it? Without even possibly killing him, at that. (I don't remember the exact parameters around his role.)

What I mean is, your role is just blatantly bastardly and unfair. It's not your fault, you were saddled with it, but I would hate for it to be used against anyone who's actively playing. Some of us put a lot of work into the game and to have the win or loss taken out of our hands entirely, with no recourse, is just wrong. I hate that the ability to give me (or anyone else) an auto-loss is in anyone's hands except the mod's, and even there, it should only be used for infractions. As part of a game? No thank you.

I can see where you read what you did from my post, I was trying to work it properly (like I tried to word this one properly, and I hope here I succeeded better). I was worried people would suggest you modkill Phil. And if you are actually thinking about using your ability again, I'd rather it be used in a way you can't get it back, because I hate it so very much. Again, if it were a normal daykill, no big deal. But player-controlled-modkill? Over the line.

---

Back to the game.

It'd be better if you killed the lurkers and inactives

You mean like you?

[saulres]

ebwop

word* it properly

[saulres]

Explain it to me then.

He's a survivor. Survivors are bad at LyLo. We have no confirmed scum, only players who seem scummy. Why is the one we

know

we don't want around not a good lynch choice?

[saulres]

I guess you could feasibly have me modkilled.

I want you dead, but I don't want you dead that way. I vote nay.

"Passive" means an ability you don't choose to use, it just happens. It's a fine way to describe your claimed ability ("anyone who visits me...")

[saulres]

I am literally asking whether you have a town win condition.

...

What non-town-win-condition player do you think would answer "No" to that?

[saulres]

Phil is obviously silly 3rd party.

ftfy

[saulres]

@Mod: Updated vote count please?

I'm too lazy to do it myself

[saulres]

I realize you want me dead for my flip. Surely there's some investigative role around here who could deal with that for you, without the inconvenient "dead townie" part.

Just with the inconvenient "lose the investigative ability" part. Not worried about that, are you? You're just worried about you dying. Which would be consistent with Survivor.

ShadowGirl, I think this is what you're looking for:

He claims green goo
I call him a survivor

[saulres]

We have roles that are clearly modified from the original thread (see the Guilty Child, for example) and you're wagoning based off a role claim.

Not just the claim. His behavior is consistent with Survivor behavior. Let me find the links where I show that he's 1) always claiming "I'm not 3rd party" but not "I'm not scum", and more importantly, 2) extremely worried about his own survival at the expense of other things. There's one of those latter ones right above, where he says "investigate me" without worrying about losing our investigative capabilities. I'll show you more in a minute or twenty.

[saulres]

@Tierce: There's a difference though. I was town in -- what was it, Animal Rescue? I don't remember any more -- where I had an anti-town role. I didn't want to be lynched, but I understood that it might be best for town if I was. I didn't say "Yes, please, come lose your powers and investigate me to prove that I'm town" -- that would have been stupid.

In any case, here's what I have:

My original case against him
Then this, and why I think it's worst role enough as is. And the "Why does Phil need to die" portion of this.

The way things are going, though, is why I asked for a votecount. If he's not going to be a viable lynch, I know Oversoul is one good option but I'd like to know for sure what the other options are so I can do the research on them.

And with that pedit, it looks like... dana, if you can call 3 out of 11 a "viable" wagon...

This is ridiculous, we're two and a half days from deadline with eight people not placing any useful votes (although BBMolla gets a pass on that due to his mistake). I'd call that plenty of time in a normal game, but with the post frequency of some of these players we need them to act soon.

[saulres]

Vanishing doesn't strike me as a scum offensive ability. I did find this though.

[saulres]

@Tierce: Because why?

[saulres]

There's not enough activity to come up with more solid reads though. At least not for me. I'd rather lynch someone I think is detrimental to town, as compared to someone who I just feel is possibly (or probably) scum, earlier rather than later. No one agrees with me on that? I'm used to smaller games, is it that there are more players in this one that makes that not a good idea at this point of the game?

In any case, l'm still waiting on something before I move my vote, but I don't feel it's pro-town to say what that it is.

pedit: I promised analysis I didn't deliver? Link me please.

[saulres]

Oh. I didn't take that as a promise, I'm sorry I led you to believe that. As I said, 3 out of 11 isn't really "viable".

But I'll ISO him in a few. Can't hurt.

[saulres]

saul, you're still voting Phil, who is BLATANT TOWN

Not to me. So forgive me for disagreeing, and we can hopefully discuss it again before LyLo.

Also:

l'm still waiting on something before I move my vote, but I don't feel it's pro-town to say what that it is.

ISO'd dana, and I'm not really seeing anything particularly scummy. Now I'll go look at the people who voted for him and why they did so, maybe I missed something.

[saulres]

There's a line-up of people I would rather have dead than Phil. A long line-up.

Could you put these in order for me please?

Mostly because I think you're town and would like to see who you might be thinking of mod-killing (which you know I oppose). If I can find agreement I'd rather work with you to get them lynched, rather than modkilled.

[saulres]

Here's my promised analysis of those on the dana wagon.

danakillsu (3) - RedPanda, knox, ManiacalLemon

RedPanda: No reason other than "look at the iso". That's not a valid reason. Panda might be a better lynch than dana for that, will look at tomorrow.

knox: This one's tough, because of the post restriction. But it looks like he was highlighting things in dana's posts that he didn't like, and it seems like it centers on dana's flipping his vote off of Haddock and onto Phil. I saw that too when I was looking at his ISO, but I did my due diligence -- dana said he'd keep his vote on Haddock unless Haddock came in and made a good case. Haddock did that. After that, dana doesn't refer to it again, but I could see him saying "Well, I don't agree with Haddock's case, but at least he came in and put in a thought-out one, so I'll pursue this other good-looking lynch instead." I lean town on knox and think he was just confused on this though and look forward to his response to this.

ML: Another "just look at the iso". I'm not particularly impressed by this slot and I hope the anticipated replacement will come in and give us something to work with. The problem here of course is we can't just arbitrarily throw a vote at it unless it's a concerted effort with enough people committing to do so.

pedit: Saw ShadowGirl has dana at the top of her list, will have to look into why (unless she wants to point me to it?)

[saulres]

Why are you looking at the voters before flipping anyone involved? You are analyzing people just based off their votes on an unflipped player, instead of going through D1 votes or, hell, the whole of their play so far.

ISO'd dana, and I'm not really seeing anything particularly scummy. Now I'll go look at the people who voted for him and why they did so, maybe I missed something.

I didn't analyze any of the voters except insofar as their reasons for voting dana. If I saw something which looked like "this is a stupid reason" I noted it as a reminder that it's worth looking at tomorrow, and also to indicate to others that maybe those people are worth a look.

[saulres]

mcqueen was killed because he was fucking annoying (no other possible reason there that I could determine).

Why the assumption he was killed? We don't have a flip.

[saulres]

why are you voteparking?

I've answered this twice now. Must I quote it again?

[saulres]

A wise woman once said, "Patience, grasshopper."

The deadline is still over two days away.

[saulres]

And while you're at it,

mod

, can we get a replacement for ML?

[saulres]

That's what I was waiting for - Oversoul's response to the wagon, and his thoughts.

It was hard to get through the yelling post, but from what I read I found strange inconsistencies.

For example, he says "I am really tempted to fucking vig him." I wasn't aware that commuters could vig.

He says "The people on my wagon are playing against their wincons," meaning (if he's town) that he thinks Tierce, Gimmicky Alt, Agent_Ireland, brizingre1, theam, Amrun, and maybe mafia-noob (if he didn't see the moved vote), are all town, and yet he doesn't seem to believe that in his later comments. I think. It's so hard to read through the anger, and the thing is, I've seen kuribo do a lot of yelling and screaming as scum in order to distract -- it's a strategy. I just don't know if that's what Oversoul does as scum too.

The one which really bugs me is "I WILL NOT STAND FOR TOWN MISLYNCHING". I didn't see him railing against himself for yesterday's mislynch of GNR which he initiated.

Vote: Oversoul

It's interesting that he chose IceGuy to go after, as he's one of my scumspects too. If it's a bus it's a damn hard one, so if he flips scum, IceGuy's probably 3rdParty and still worth pursuing.

In other news:

Why aren't you doing a wagon analysis on flipped players?

...

It's not a wagon analysis. How many times do I have to explain this?

Tierce prompted me to look at dana to see if he's scum. I ISOed him and didn't see anything that struck me as such. So I looked at the people on his wagon to see why

they

were voting him.

[saulres]

@Mod:

: Requesting prods of Agent_Ireland and Foxace36. And how's that replacment for ManiacalLemon coming along?

[saulres]

It's not a good AtE either.

This is good:
Pwese don't vote me?


This is bad:
YOU'RE ALL FUCKING MORONS IF YOU THINK LYNCHING ME IS A GOOD IDEA!


Neither of them should work, but the latter is more likely to get people who wouldn't normally disagree with you to do so just because you're setting them on edge.

[saulres]

Speaking of tests, it looks like mafia-n00b's mcqueen test failed.

[saulres]

Oh whoops. I saw the VC in izak's ISO and thought I was looking at the thread and that it directly preceeded his most recent post.

@Mod

: Votecount please.

[saulres]

having their vote locked for the day is just a way to ensure that they have no D1 voting responsibility.

Dammit, now you've got me questioning BB again

I mean this came out of nowhere.

This is why I hate vote posts that don't give reasons. Granted it's probably easy to make up a reason if you need to, but it might actually get you to think about what you're doing before you do it. (Plus we don't waste posts asking for the reason.)

[saulres]

You know, I really hate it when you do that. You say "Oh hey I know something, and you could figure it out too, so if you're so inclined to, do so, and if you're not, screw you, you don't deserve to get that information." Why bother bringing it up then?

This is basically more of this. Active lurking at its best. I don't understand why so many people are defending you.

[saulres]

You have meta on that? Thanks. That helps. I really wanted to keep him town.

[saulres]

If the deadline does extend, I'm willing to move my vote to Phil, Oversoul, or Iceguy.

I am not willing to vote ShadowGirl, Tierce, BBMolla, mafia-noob, or brizingre1.

I'd only vote for inte if we got enough people committing to it. I think it's too late for that.

I'm open to arguments against anyone else.

[saulres]

Yay for replacements!

Now we're all set with--

Damn.

@Mod

: Requesting prod of Gimmicky Alt

[saulres]

if you are town and want IceGuy dead, I really don't get the fact that you are trying to destroy the fact that I do want IceGuy dead too. Makes no sense.

Umm... No?

Groupscum keep

quiet

when someone who's town is voting for their preferred mislynch for invalid reasons.

Town shows where scum might be bussing.

I'm not saying that's what's happening here (I think Oversoul and Ice are both scum, just of different flavors -- probably OS as the 3rdParty given he seems more genuinely interested in finding groupscum). I'm just saying I disagree with this theory.

[saulres]

No time for anything but a quick skim tonight, but I did notice some quick things:

1) Oversoul's still at L-1 because syndrome unvoted
2) inte's vote of Amrun, while maybe legit (can't look into it now but maybe tomorrow, certainly by Monday if the day's not over yet, or while I'm twiddling my thumbs at night if it is) is probably not going to go anywhere before day end
3) Gimmicky Alt's "Hey I've been prodded, better post something" post is so useless, that Gimmicky is probably lurkscum and goes into that pile for me.

[saulres]

I realize I'm only skimming due to time pressures today, and I want to look at this more tomorrow, but I just don't understand how come, after Oversoul, a heavy scum-read for several people, claims he

doesn't know what his abilities are

, nor his alignment, but when he says he used an ability, everyone's like "Oh Oversoul must be town okay let's trust his result".

Can someone sum up the logic behind that please? Assuming I won't see it when I can read in depth tomorrow. tia

[saulres]

@Mod

Requesting prods of

BBmolla 2 days 3 hours (but 40 posts elsewhere -- anyone who knows me knows I consider this a scumtell, and I'd vote except with such a close deadline I don't think it'll be viable at the moment.)
knox 2 days 21 hours
Captain Haddock 3 days 10 hours

[saulres]

Getting caught up for realsies...

I've read about half the pages
dana is scum
amrun is scum
iceguy is scum

Robotnik aka Mafia Noob is scum

shadowgirl is town (your sig is totally wrong though, Parvati is the greatest)
bbmolla is town
I think to make BB's role extra bastardy Tierce could be scum

I have reason to believe Oversoul is town

Explain please?

The bolded ones I'm most interested in, and iceguy and shadowgirl I agree with. I'd like to hear the cases against dana (because I still haven't been convinced so I don't know what I'm missing) and amrun.

[saulres]

I personally would rather not resort to a preemptive modkill in this situation, especially because you yourself expressed how much you didn't want it because it would take away your win con.

But now he says he doesn't know his wincon. This whole thing isn't making any sense.

Found his new claim though.

And really, if that's what he has, then I was spot on when I said his initial posts "feels like scum trying to look town.", expounded upon here. The gist I was presenting was that he wasn't town but was trying to appear like town, and now he claims he was indeed trying to look like town. So him coming at me so hard for that case as a "crap" one is disingenuous at best.

Today I was angry at getting strung up.

Do you always get angry when you're going to be lynched, or only as certain alignments? (meta to back it up if you have it, please). Also I thought you were angry long before your lynch was so close. I do like the kindler, gentler Oversoul though; it's easier to listen to what you're saying then when you were raging.

@Tierce:

What convinced you to move your vote? And then what changed that your moved it again four posts later? And what does FML mean?

@Phil:

Nice sheeping there, of both Tierce and Shadow (not bad choices) because they both "agree [Oversoul is] not worth lynching". Only problem is, Shadow didn't say that, and her vote is still on him.

@theam:

How can you say this when Oversoul's currently claim is he doesn't even know his alignment, so he's essentially saying you can't trust anything he's posted as verifying he's town? Do you know something about his alignment that he doesn't?

But let's say that mafia_n00b DID perform an abduct action. Does that mean he is scum?

Not really. I can see town-vig thinking in it, I can see scum-WIFOM in it, I can see "I have something against him from before the game started so I want him out of this one" -- there are too many possible motivations on what doesn't seem to be an actual kill to determine alignment at this point. That's why I'm not going to vote for him (especially when I have a townread on him from his posts).

We should probably lynch mafia_n00b and see what happens

Why? What do you think will happen that makes it worth killing mafia_n00b as compared to anyone else that has scumreads on them before Oversoul changed his claim? Like Iceguy?

Only one of those is even in prod range

Yes. They all were:

Players will be prodded after 72 hours of not posting, or

after 48 hours if a player requests a prod

.

Why are you misrepping me? You're going into my "possible scum" list. If this day gets extended again I'm looking at you, otherwise overnight as promised.

I have somebody telling me something

I think we can all guess who the somebody is so why are you so coy?

[saulres]

Not 'everyone' has townread on Oversoul now. WTF? It's something else.

Yeah, I got that when I wasn't doing my own "drive-by". But I do see people leaving the Oversoul wagon to vote for mafia-n00b, which is based completely on Oversoul's claim. That just strikes me as odd, that they're trying to lynch m-n in order to prove whether or not Oversoul's claim is correct. Wouldn't it make more sense to do it the other way?

pedit: We'll never be able to scumhunt it if it's true. Making him a bad LyLo take. How many of those

are

there in this game?

[saulres]

Looking at robotnick/mafia-n00b per Oversoul's claim and the building wagon.

I love your post restriction, knox, but is it possible to write in smaller letters so that you don't need three images?

I don't see this post as scum-motivated.

This isn't either. Scum finding a breadcrumb identifying town (even an obvious one) have no reason I can see to draw attention to it.

When mafia-n00b tested if mcqueen's still in the game, that could easily come from someone who doesn't know about what happened (no alignment tell there), but could it come from someone who

does

know? I'm thinking probably not, especially given the timing -- if you know that you removed someone from the game, why would your motivation to prove the person is removed, come only

after

people started discussing it? And more, why would you draw attention to all those details when the source for the ability has all the same details, and has it as a scum ability?

[saulres]

Oversoul, do you still think my "he feels like he's trying to appear town without actually being town" case is crap? I think I pretty much nailed it if your current claim is true.

I'm okay with leaving Oversoul's lynch for closer to LyLo at this point. But I'm not willing to lynch mafia-n00b on the say-so of someone who admittedly doesn't know what his ability does. I'd rather get confirmation from a more reliable source. Especially when there's a good alternative wagon for today.

Vote: Iceguy

[saulres]

How is Oversoul's role and the WIFOM it presents any better to carry on until LyLo when you were willing to lynch Phil?

It's not.

But Phil wasn't getting lynched, Oversoul is moving away from lynch, and Iceguy is moving towards it, so I didn't see it as beneficial to keep my vote on the one losing votes, as compared to moving it to the one who is, when deadline is so close.

If Phil or Oversoul gets to be a good lynch again today, I'll move to them. I want a lynch today because no-lynch only hurts us (giving scum a free kill when we have to kill the non-LyLo people anyway) so I'm looking at viability.

[saulres]

Because TWO PEOPLE say he's lying.

Oversoul said he was lying, and that's much more reliable than people who aren't the accused person. Your logic isn't making sense.

[saulres]

Two people have expressed they will vote him, convincing enough for you?

Expressing they will vote != voting. Oversoul would have been lynched already if that weren't true as two people said they intended to hammer but were still giving more time.

Having said that, if he gets back to L-1, I will hammer. Is that sufficient for you?

[saulres]

Need a current votecount so I don't renege.

[saulres]

I think this is right.

Oversoul (7) - Gimmicky Alt, brizingre1, ShadowGirl, , mafia-n00b, Oversoul, Phillammon, Amrun
IceGuy (6) - RedPanda, PokerFace, syndromeofadown, danakillsu, Foxace36, saulres
mafia-n00b (2) - Tierce, inte, ,
Phillammon (2) - IceGuy, Captain Haddock
danakillsu (1) - knox
inte (1) - BBmolla

theamatuer (0) -
Amrun (0) -
Captain Haddock (0) - none
brizingre1 (0) - none
Foxace36 (0) - none
BBmolla (0) - none
saulres (0) - none
PokerFace (0) - none
ShadowGirl (0) - none
Gimmicky Alt (0) - none
RedPanda (0) - none
knox (0) - none
syndromeofadown (0) - none
Tierce (0) - none

No Lynch (0) - none

Not voting (0) - theamatuer,

pedit: That's because phil is scum

[saulres]

FoxAce's last vote

Panda, you're moving Poker's vote but not yours? Way to be noncommittal.

pedit: Remove that was said, that was said, sheesh this game is moving fast all of a sudden, that was said: Nothing new to add here.

[saulres]

You will only be given false information if a role specifies it.

[saulres]

It takes 11 to lynch.

And also, ha, nice. If I don't hammer, ShadowGirl has more ammo in her thoughts that I'm scum. If I do, Tierce has more. Can't win for losing

pedit: NINJA-NINJA-NINJA GO!

[saulres]

Oversoul (7) - Gimmicky Alt, brizingre1, ShadowGirl, , mafia-n00b, Oversoul, Phillammon, Amrun

1512 + Tierce (8)
1514 + Pokerface (9)
1520 - mafia_n00b (8)
1525 + theam (9)
1529 + mafia_n00b (10)

Oh. You're right.

Vote: Oversoul

[saulres]

1 day and something is 36 hours. A day has 24 hours.

That's not a countdown, though, is it? I thought it was a hard-time from the time of the post.

[saulres]

I did that earlier to check, and got the "1 day plus" thing. Let me try again.

Sonofa-- dammit! It didn't do that when I quoted it for my votecount! I thought it was ending in less than half a day. Fuck.

[saulres]

@Mod

: Can we have a countdown put in the OP, along with the word "Countdown", so this doesn't happen again?

[saulres]

Oh, and Panda? I already found

his new claim

so I don't know what it would have helped for him to claim it.

[saulres]

Why don't you think IceGuy, who abducted mcqueen, is scum?

[saulres]

Why'd you abduct dana?

I'd rather have two likely townies around than you.

Vote: IceGuy

[saulres]

Oh right this is the game where everyone thought dana was scum but couldn't produce a case. Will wait on that.

Unvote

Vote: Phil

<-- still a good vote.

[saulres]

...

Totally forgot about that!

Vote: brizingre1

[saulres]

Huh. That's actually a good way to think about it. Are you open to us suggesting who to grab and who to release? We could have a sub-vote-heal-hurt-game.

Abduct: Phil

Release: mcqueen

Would

still

like a solid case on dana.

[saulres]

Why are you suggesting that anyone should target Phil?

I think he's scum. Have for quite some time.

[saulres]

Oh crap. I forgot.

Unabduct: Phil

That's 2 for 2. I think I need to review this game.

[saulres]

if a town vig is to blame for this, I JUDGE YOU.

You think a town vig has two kills, which likely weren't used night 1?

Oh, there's the role. Maybe he suicided. I think knox's replacement might as well, I feel sorry for him.

Phil hammers by my count. And izak called

yesterday

a quicklynch LOL

Agree theam is town. Makes sense with that other one you posted.

Thought: Maybe Gimmicky Alt isn't a person on their own, but rather an alt of theam, so theam was a double-voter.

[saulres]

Question: Would you have not done it if you realized it was the hammer?

[saulres]

Given, that, I guess my overnight theories about IceGuy were shared by what appears to be a town-aligned vig. I'm glad we have one. I thought we had one from the Gimmicky Alt kill N1, and now it seems confirmed. Good deal.

I still have a couple of things I thought of last night (hoping they wouldn't be wasted) that I want to put out there.

First, I was very bothered by brizingre flipping green, and I figured izak was messing with us again. So I asked him. He said that if there are lies in a role they would be due only to if the role as posted in the Worst Roles thread would require it.

So I'm wondering if that's the issue. "Red Shirt" (with the space) isn't in the Worst Roles thread, it's referred to but is actually a separate thread (sometimes with a hyphen). The one in the thread doesn't have a space in it.

So maybe izak was just messing with briz? Maybe his real role was this one, and izak was being bastardly? I highly recommend you look at your own role and try to find it; if there's a difference in spelling you might not be what you think you are...

---

Also, because I forgot claims yesterday, I went through and compiled all of them I could find. I'd put the list here for future reference except they're not adjusted for the changes overnight so I'll do it in another post instead.

[saulres]

Oh, and I forgot. Phil's still scum.

Vote: Phil

[saulres]

Spoiler: claims

1. saulres - claims ability he doesn't know what it does
3. BBmolla claimed out-of-game recruiter, bringing in Tierce, confirmed by Tierce
5. PokerFace - no claim(?)
7. mafia-n00b replacing Robotnick2 - claims night action that affects only him, something about sorta immune to night-kills
11. Captain Haddock - no claim(?)
12. Phillammon - claims green goo
16. inte replacing ManiacalLemon* - claims vote magnet (confirmed)
17. Amrun - no claim(?)
19. theamatuer replacing kdowns, replacing Antihero, replacing Candy Corn Vampire - no claim(?) but seems responsible for GimmickyAlt
21. Foxace36** replacing Chimera - claims masons with RedPanda, confirms RedPanda. Also claims has to vote whoever votes him
23. RedPanda - claims masons with Foxace35, confirms Foxace36. Also claims _ _ _ _ _ _ , _ _ _ _ _ _ , _ _ _
25. YYR replacing knox - claims can only speak in gifs
26. mcqueen - claims annoying 12-year old girl
27. danakillsu - claims something problematic for ShadowGirl (who had a modkill-ability) and that saying too much about it is bad for both of them

[saulres]

@Mod

: Is the NK flavor correct? In the day-open post you show Iceguy "mauled", but in the OP you have him "killed".

I'm trying to do some NK analysis and if there's any consistency in the flavor, it could matter.

[saulres]

I wish we had time to do NK analysis... I want to talk about *why* syndrome was killed.

m-b: Why didn't you want to discuss why Gimmicky Alt was killed?

pedit: Yes, exactly. That's why I was trying to figure out

how

what happened happened. Just a simple lie about a role is too bastardly imo. But a misleading aspect which

could

have been researched -- that's why I suggest everyone look for their own role.

YYR, reasons why dana's scummy? No one's provided me with a good case yet, and I've asked. Good point though on "no one asking why briz as scum would have claimed that" before. With two confirmed town on that wagon there's most likely at least some scum on it (yes I know I'm on it). I'll look at motivations in everyone's votes later today, but I will point out, as I gladly tunnel, that Phil was the hammer which ended the day, he said "no excuse, Briz", conveniently "forgot" that his was the hammer vote, and that he would have ignored anything briz said and hammered him anyway.

Confirm vote: Phil

[saulres]

I've been operating under the assumption that the scum kills are "mauled". Since Gimmicky-Alt was shotgunned, I assumed night-vig or equivalent. I was interested in figuring out

scum kills

.

That's -- not consistent.

You assume scum kills are "mauled", that's reasonable considering we have one each night.

But night 2 the maul kill was obvtown ShadowGirl. That's not what you were asking about. You were looking at Gimmicky, who was shotgunned (not the scum kill you're looking for) and ignored syndrome who was just plain old "killed".

[saulres]

So much new information! My pedit post is getting ridiculously long so I'm going to have to split it out and that's going to take time.

But BB, really? There's a very limited number of people who haven't claimed yet , so I don't see how outing our vig is pro-town. That comment just adds fuel to my fire on the speculation-case I'm building...

[saulres]

First point:

I was going to post "brilliant" to inte's 1628 but then I realized we have a scumkill on N1, assuming maul = scum. So then I thought:

Unless...

"maul" is scum,

and

"kill" is another scum which includes bbmolla?

Which makes "shotgun" maybe a limited vig?

Let's look at that.

"maul" scum kills <-These all make sense trying to get rid of obvtown (assuming that's why TSP was killed N1)
Teleporting Speed Hippos, Hipster, was mauled Night 1
ShadowGirl, 1-shot Mod Director, was mauled Night 2
Tierce, Neighbour, was mauled Night 3

"kill" scum actions
[Recruit Tierce Night 1] <- Pure speculation that that belongs there but damn if it doesn't make sense
syndromeofadown, Ninja, was killed Night 2
IceGuy, Abductor, was killed Night 3 <- Trying to get back one of their own?

??? - vig maybe? <- Drunken hick who missed makes sense
Gimmicky Alt, Dummy, was shotgunned Night 2

Point 2, which speculates on the "kill" scum, coming up in few

[saulres]

Oh, also, any post restrictioner should claim now.

Why?

Why the hell would Tierce getting mauled make me kill scum?

It's null, Tierce reads me like a book, if I was and scum and I recruited her and she wasn't scum with me, I'd kill her ASAP.

I don't think Tierce getting mauled is what the argument for you being scum is. The idea of scum bringing in another player at the cost of their NK makes sense, and having that player be town in a "worst roles" game also makes sense. (See: combining these)

Also WIFOM, especially when you see my case (coming soon!)

[saulres]

Gah, taking these out of the pedit:

Re: "Iceguy died because Dana's scum" -- I had a theory overnight about IceGuy and I don't see why scum would bring his captives back at this point of the game instead of closer to LyLo.

Re: massclaim - There are only, what, 4 people who haven't claimed? So getting the ones that are not a vig to claim narrows down who the vig is -- still not protown to ask.

scumreads right now are Phil (still), and as soon as I can get this case post out, you and inte.

[saulres]

Point 2: A case for the "kill" scum team

Tierce and bbmolla are pretty much conf town

I know how they play as their respective alignments, especially bbmolla

Its quite plausible that BBmolla is actually scum-aligned recuiter and only recruits pro-town

One of those things doesn't belong. Anyone see which one it is? Note that 1628 came only after a (really really long, essentially) night phase where, if inte were scum, he's be able to set up trying to out another scumteam with his partner.

BB's response dodges the issue: "That's a pretty shitty post inte."

Does anyone else read that as "intescum and bbscum came up with this plan overnight to see if there's a second scumteam"? That's sure how that feels to me.

And BB voted maniacal lemon (who inte replaced), "forgetting" about the role...

I'm still not willing to vote inte (vote magnet) unless everyone thinks that's a good idea and commits to it. But killing BBMolla might confirm associations and my gut (which has been pretty good lately; see: Oversoul) is saying it would be a good call.

So I'd be willing to vote bb today. (Still prefer Phil.)

[saulres]

I'd rather keep it civil during the game if at all possible. I hate negativity.

That's why I miss ShadowGirl but not Oversoul.

If the insults don't add anything I'd just as soon see them removed while we're still playing.

[saulres]

Wait what?

I brought that post up long ago and Phil, you didn't say anything about recursiveness then.

Also mcqueen it would be great if you could catch up and offer some scumreads and cases.

[saulres]

I'd say that constitutes having brought it up, Saulres.

It does, but not "then". "Then" meaning "at the time".

I brought it up in 627. 629 doesn't say cult, it says exactly the opposite.

Saying that you were thinking it was the cult version is disingenuous at best. Unless I'm still not getting it.

[saulres]

COME ON FOLKS VOTE ANY OF

MY

SCUMREADS

Are those

your

scumreads? I thought they were Tierce's which you're sharing from the QT.

[saulres]

So they're completely identical?

I don't think I've ever seen two people with completely identical reads with so many people left in the game. That's why I'm asking. You didn't disagree about

anybody

?

[saulres]

Tierce had a feeling she was going to die tonight and posted some thoughts in our QT(or said she would), I'll get them when I can.

She didn't get a chance to post all her reads. The only thing in the QT that she didn't mention is who she believed Gimmicky Alt to be owned by.

I thought from the 2nd quote that you were going to be giving us her reads and her thoughts. Then the 3rd quote, which implies that you were going to follow it with her thoughts, is instead followed by what you're saying are your reads. That's the source of my confusion.

[saulres]

Reading PokerFace's recent posts, I noticed something, so I ISOed him.

For someone who dislikes "how long some of tierces and overs posts are" he sure has some long ones himself. But that's not why I'm here.

In looking through it, reading

almost

every word of them -- there are a whole lot of words, but precious little scumhunting. After an okay start, there are comments on what the term "masons" means, there's comments on posting style, there's comments on what different roles mean -- we've all (or at least I) have done that throughout the thread, but we've also scumhunted. Pokerface tunnels on BBMolla but doesn't really do anything else in terms of finding scum.

So I'm putting him in the "leaning scum" list.

Does no one have any comments on my thoughts about inte-bb? Or at least my observation about inte's turnaround?

[saulres]

Good point though on "no one asking why briz as scum would have claimed that" before. With two confirmed town on that wagon there's most likely at least some scum on it (yes I know I'm on it). I'll look at motivations in everyone's votes later today,

Getting to that now.

brizingre1

(8) -

Tierce

, theamatuer, saulres,

IceGuy

, RedPanda, mafia-n00b, Amrun, Phillammon

Not voting (7) -

brizingre1

, PokerFace, Foxace36, Captain Haddock, inte, YYR, BBmolla

Okay, so the first thing I notice is that

everyone

who posted yesterday voted briz.

Second, looking through the vote posts, the only ones which stand out as "jumping on the bandwagon without reasoning" are RedPanda and, of course, Phil who hammered. I already think Phil is scum, and I'll ISO RedPanda next.

Also of interest (to me at least) is mafia-n00b's vote with "I can't wait to hear his explanation for this one...". That's a shame because of everyone on that list he's the one I have the townread on, but it stands out most because, well, I'm looking at "no one questioned why briz scum would claim a role like that", and you're the only one who kind of did, but you laid the vote down anyway. So you're the only one we can ask "why didn't you let him explain before voting?", as it looks like the rest of us just kinda sheeped Tierce's post without thinking about it too hard (I know that's the case for me -- the not thinking about it too hard. That's the last time I'm going to do that this game, the bastardness is screwing with me).

[saulres]

She prolly wanted to draw a kill

Why would she want to do that? Makes no sense.

[saulres]

you are joking right?

No I'm not joking. Everyone other than those I mentioned made some reference to briz's claim when voting him. You added a vote to his wagon, without mentioning his claim at all, in a post attacking IceGuy. That's a simple fact that anyone can check.

Wanting to ISO you based on that? I have one pretty heavy scumread, Phil. I don't think he's the only scum in the game, so I'm looking for things to inspire me to ISO someone else. I found one, so I'll do it.

[saulres]

all this while I've been reading you as scum because I believed you were pretending to be stupid.

I think I should flip that statement from now.

I'm not going to insult my intelligence by talking to you after this.

A village idiot is what you are.

Explain to me now exactly what have I done to deserve those kinds of personal attacks. It's one thing to say "oh your reasons are lame and I don't like your scumhunting techniques." It's another to call me stupid and a VI. Keep it civil.

[saulres]

You're breaking game rules and site rules. I've PMed

my mommy

the mod. Attack my arguments, point out where my thinking's wrong, but cut out the personal attacks.

There's so much shit like that on this board. You saw in your modded game I played in how I felt about the play in that game, and I'm not going to tolerate it any more.

[saulres]

Never more have I wished this were enabled.

I will try to finish out this game. But if I, rather than my play (and there is a difference) continue to be attacked, my attacker had damn better well be scum. In order to this, I need to not look at RedPanda's posts for a while. I hope that doesn't hurt us, but I think most people have a townread on him so I guess it shouldn't. I guess.

Second, looking through the vote posts, the only ones which stand out as "jumping on the bandwagon without reasoning" are RedPanda and, of course, Phil who hammered. I already think Phil is scum, and I'll ISO RedPanda next.

This is just awful. Stop being scum.

I can't stop what I never started.

Could you please tell me what exactly is awful about it? I don't see anyone else trying to answer YYR's question about questioning briz (except mafia-n00b, which I appreciate), and I think it's reasonable to think there's scum on briz's wagon, and I was looking for something -- anything -- to go on. All my townreads except one are dead, and it's not looking like my scumread's wagon is growing, even though he himself said he should be lynched immediately. It's easier for me to ISO someone and work out from there than to reread the entire game, especially when we don't seem to have any groupscum flips yet to look for associations.

Saul, why do you think there's 2 scum teams?

I don't. Read 1643 again, it's pure speculation. I do that a lot (see my 2nd paragraph).

Is it just me or were there just multiple unexplained Captain Haddock votes? I looked back to see a case on him, but didn't find one. Someone wanna explain?

Ditto. It remind me of the votes on you, actually, when I still don't see the case. I personally hate it when people vote without giving a reason.

pedit-ish: Oh and now even my scumread isn't advocating his own lynch anymore. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

Maybe I should just sheep mafia-n00b.

Although I'm good with lynching inte (based on the bb flip-flop), it's just I'd need a whole lot more players to say that too before I potentially throw my vote away.

[saulres]

Given that I'm not reading any of my prior ISO's posts for a few days, I decided to look at Haddock because there's a wagon on him.

First thing I found of interest: He spent all of D1 tunneling on BBMolla for asking for a claim from RedPanda beyond mason. That's not scummy in and of itself, I can see where he's coming from.

But then his first post on Day2 includes this:

a massclaim(which we should do tommorow)

Why the turnaround, Captain? Also why did you want to wait a day?

And then you go on to continue criticizing asking for claims.

I do see something in one of his BB quotes that I'm going to follow up on to see if it yields anything.

Oh, and now you're back to wanting a massclaim. Could you please explain your flip-floppiness on the whole claiming issue?

[saulres]

I do see something in one of his BB quotes that I'm going to follow up on to see if it yields anything.

Turns out that was a dead end, so don't expect a followup.

[saulres]

"Oh well I think he did this and it was kinda town, oh but this was kinda scummy... so idk"

Don't misrep me.

I never said he was town in that post, or that anything he did was town. I also didn't say he was scum. I don't know, and I'm trying to find out, as I have

absolutely no read on him

right now. So I pointed out the

one

thing I saw that looked like an inconsistency and asked him to explain it.

I'm sorry I don't just post votes without explanation. I guess not trying to probe, but rather just jumping to unexplained votes, is pro-town behavior. I'll make sure to make a note of that for if I ever draw scum

[saulres]

Yes, thank you for clarifying how I didn't say he's town.

But since you don't seem to understand: One action that isn't scummy does not automatically make the player town. Otherwise there are no non-town players in any game, because scum try to do things they think will make them look townie.

I'm surprised you don't know this.

[saulres]

What? I'm not misrepping you! Just the opposite. You put in that line paraphrasing what you think I said. Now you're claiming those words were you own thoughts and I'm twisting them?

[saulres]

it was kinda town

You're saying I misrepped your claim that I said something about town?

[saulres]

@mcqueen and anyone else who thinks Phil is town: My arguments for Phil being scum.

Need I get more?

Also

@Mod: Requesting prods of YYR and Foxace

.

[saulres]

@Mod: Requesting prods of YYR and Foxace

.

@Mod

: Add Pokerface to this list please.

BB, do you usually identify entire scumteams with no groupscum flips? And what's your track record on success with that?

Tomorrow I'll look at Foxace, since I've already looked at Pokerface and found him leaning scum, and I thought knox was leaning town so with only one post by YYR there's no real point.

[saulres]

What reasons would those be. I haven't seen a single case on me that has been explained, just a few people saying: "He's scum like other people said". That's why I haven't really put a lot of effort into defending myself. There's nothing to defend against.

You noticed that, huh? I feel the same way. There's scum pushing our lynches.

BB, Why is Poker derptown as compared to scum? Witness:

Pokerface:

You exposed BB's lying about his post restriction, true, but that's not scumhunting: Faking PRs is not a scumtell.

You asked Oversoul a question, true, but that wasn't for scumhunting: You yourself said "thats more of a mafia theory opinion that a consideration of you being scum". Regardless, he did respond to it.

As far as why I am irate about other people's posts being long while mine are long, there's a very simple reason for that. Tierce and Oversoul posts are the longest in the thread and I don't really spend time reading my own posts. After all why would i need to read my own posts? I just wrote them. I know what they say.

That's hypocritical, though, isn't it? If you don't like when other people do it, you shouldn't do it either. My guess is most people are glazing over your posts and not analyzing them for town/scum behavior.

Are you saying you read your posts when you write them? Why?

Sometimes, yes I do. Not in so much detail, but my memory isn't all that great so sometimes I leave myself notes. (Which reminds me I want to look at Foxace. That worked well.)

Your arguments about BB's bringing in Tierce is pure WIFOM, but more, it was given by BB. Your explanation of the post numbering thing was also covered,

much

more concisely, by Amrun. (Is that where your title's from?)

BTW when you brought up Massclaim earlier Saulres what did you think the massclaim would achieve?

??? I didn't bring it up -- BB did and I said it's not pro-town to do it, and Haddock did and I asked him why he was flipflopping on it.

So sorry, but I'm just not seeing pro-town behavior from you.

[saulres]

Tomorrow I'll look at Foxace

Well that was trivial, and relatively pointless. The slot has no scumhunting or content

at all

. Chimera spends all his time explaining his claimed vote restriction and why he wasn't posting. Foxace comes in and his catchup post isn't a catchup post, and then he spends his time promising posts but never actually providing them, as well as disappearing for large chunks of time.

Mod: Please replace Foxace, he's up to 3 prods and we need some productivity from that slot

[saulres]

BB: And yet when I have my own logic, and I think it's legit, you say it's scummy. Why the double-standard?

Also: ITT: McQueen and Phil don't read. (Or forget, it happens.)

McQueen, see here for a list of current claims. (Forgot to put "2-shot" on BB's)

[saulres]

I know it's disappointing to you, but I don't post my hare-brained theories as much as I used to. Now I tend to share them only with the mod until after the game's over.

Doesn't mean I haven't posted any though. There are two I remember offhand, one about a 3rdParty team with Hippo and Oversoul, the other regarding possibly two scum teams.

I can't stop my mind, and sometimes they pan out, as I've said before.

But thank you for vouching that that's a regular part of my play. I think you're the only one left who can do that (Tierce could have too. Haddock

might

be able to but I can't remember which game I played with him in and I think it was eaten by tigers anyway.)

[saulres]

theam, why do you think your predecessor said this?:

It doesn't effect the way I convey information (I can post as much as I want), however it effects how I can play though.

[saulres]

@Mod

: Are the sources for all roles in this game from the current state of the Worst Roles thread, or is it possible there are some roles in this game whose source was eaten by tigers?

I have another harebrained theory brewing...

[saulres]

Okay, that shoots down that theory then. Sorry for forgetting the signup thread.

[saulres]

I was trying to find theam's role to see if he could be scum with a town alt. I came up with a couple of loooooooong-stretch possibilities so figured it might not be in the current thread and izak pretty much confirmed it for me. (I wish Tierce were still here so we could ask her to grab the cache of it.)

It's just the way CCV was going on and on about her post restriction, and theam seems to know nothing about it, that got me wondering. I found something where a hydra slot had both scum and town in it, but nothing really close to what we see here.

[saulres]

Back?

I wasn't differentiating between claiming and massclaiming. Doing that through your ISO, it seemed like you were flipflopping (searching "claim" doesn't work because some were just in response to something else -- I don't want to go through it again looking but I will tomorrow if you want me to).

Let's have a massclaim a few rl days after Foxace is replaced(we have 10 days). We should do a scummy to towny order but it might take to long for (almost)everyone to agree to an order.

With only three real noclaims I don't think it would take that long. Still not seeing the advantage of tellling scum which roles are worth killing off though.

[saulres]

What was the point in saying this

I was asked. Plus...

Why you rolefishing

I'm not rolefishing, and I'll gladly explain once them responds to this:

He prob thinks posting with the alt would limit his own activity or somthing.

Why would he think that? You don't seem to "have a very unfun post restriction"...

[saulres]

Shhh... Please let theam respond.

[saulres]

Hey theam! Stop lurking and come answer the question.

[saulres]

1062 is a good post on Haddock.

???

[saulres]

Oh.

I won't read that. Anyone care to summarize?

[saulres]

Sorry very busy weekend and tomorrow's Mother's Day. I'll be back to catch up on Monday for sure.

[saulres]

Okay, catchup post. From roughly where I left off...

If I have this right: RedPanda thinks Dana is scum and is trying to get Dana to fullclaim his role. Haddock also thinks Dana is scum. But Haddock thinks RedPanda is scum too for pushing for a claim from Dana-scum. This caused RedPanda to think that Haddock is scum because townHaddock would want to push for a claim from their scumreads, which scumHaddock would be calling out the guy calling for a fullclaim from his busbuddy. I think I understand that, and yes, it sure does sound like Haddock is scum there.

If that's what happened. But it's not. What's happening is RedPanda is once again getting all medieval on someone who barely

hints

that he could

possibly

be scum. Just like he did to me. Let's look at what Haddock actually said:

I thought Redpanda was town but asking for a claim without a massclaim is ridiculous but he's attacking Dana... I need to work this out.

I think it's pretty clear that Haddock is saying he's confused because he has conflicting ideas.
1) He has a townread on RedPanda
2) RedPanda wants individual claims without massclaims, which Haddock thinks is a scumtell
3) RedPanda is putting pressure on Dana, and since Dana is in Haddock's mind scum, RedPanda must be town

So he was going to think it over.

Before Haddock's next post RedPanda apparently went crazy over this, and then Haddock said this:

Redpanda's probably scum because of the disguised omgus

There

's where Haddock actually calls RedPanda scum, for OMGUSing.

So what do I see from this? RedPanda's making up a false argument because someone dared to think that he might be scum. Earlier in the game he flung personal insults on me for saying that I would look into his ISO for scummy behavior.

Well guess what? I found it. Town doesn't freak out when people think they might be scum. Only scum does.

So I'm adding RedPanda to my scumlist of Phil and inte.

Going to keep catching up now, let's see how the lists shake out.

[saulres]

I claimed an inno on him

When did you claim inno on (theam or BB -- it's unclear who "he" is)?

If you don't think its likly then why speculate about it?

I speculate about a

lot

-- that's just how my mind works. I can't stop it from speculating about unlikely things, as long as they're possible. Eventually, hopefully, all the pieces fall into place and at that point I can (mostly) discard the useless speculation and see if the more likely ones are still viable.

dana: Sure seems consistent with gold digger.

Uhm yes faking a PR is a scum tell

Hm. In Magician's Mafia someone said that Vi had faked a post restriction before and for some reason I'm thinking that was as town, but I'm having trouble finding a link to the game they were referring to.

How would you advise I fix this habbit of mine even though I don't have the time in real life to post as oftenly as others post? Does this problem I have make me scum or is it a poor viewpoint

I don't have an answer to that, not having the same issue. I'll have to think on it. That "problem" doesn't make you scum, though, I just wasn't liking the double standard.

mcqueen, your posts are devoid of information or scumhunting. Are you scum or is this how you always play?

call, welcome to the game.

theam? replacing out too? Could theamatuer replacing kdowns, replacing Antihero, replacing Candy Corn Vampire be a town flaker as well? Or some tiger-eaten role? Regardless, I'm going to remain leaning scum on this simply due to the discrepancy between the first holder of this role and the latest.

Will respond to call's catch-up post in a separate post, there are several things I want to comment on and this post is more broad-based.

i am confirmed town

What? No you are not. Please point us to the post where you are confirmed as town. I won't hold my breath.

[saulres]

Bummer, I was hoping call would have put forth the argument for why dana's scum. With so many people thinking he's scum, I still haven't seen any reasoning. But what there is, though, is a case against me that I can actually respond to. So here we go.

But first:

saulres

#60: "I vote when I have a solid reason to vote someone. If it were RVS (which it wasn't, because of the mod-revealed alignment) I wouldn't have dropped it. But with the strong possibility of it being a fake-mod-reveal, I want to minimize my contribution to what could easily be an easy mislynch. And now I don't have anything solid enough to put a vote on." Why?

Why what?

Okay, now to the "case". I thank you very much for presenting one against me. I've been called scum a bit in this game but with nothing really specific to back it up, I couldn't address the issues. Here I can though.

[*]Long lists of posts directed at everyone every now and then in order to look useful and not tunneling

I make long posts, but you're misconstruing the reasons. When I think there are things I should respond to, or things I want to question, or pressure I want to put on someone, I can make long posts. That's just a playstyle.

I admit I have been tunneling on Phil for quite some time, but that's because he's the one I had a solid read on from early on who has (had) viable wagons on him, and he's done nothing to convince me that he's

not

scum. I've expressed scumreads on other people, and voted them when appropriate.

[*]running out of reads quickly (which isn't deliberate but happens to me naturally as scum because I know too much about the gamestate)

I don't think it was that quickly. I had scumreads on people who keep dying. Sometimes I was right, sometimes I was wrong, but I adjust as new flips come in. I keep hoping for a groupscum flip so we can look for associations.

At the moment, I have three scumreads (Phil, inte, RedPanda) and I'm leaning scum on Pokerface and theam's slot, I think that's plenty of scummy reads out of 14 people.

[*]attacking lurkers in order to make the running out of reads less obvious (#1335)

If you look at who I have/had scumreads on, I think you'll find the majority of them would not fall in the "lurker" category. That doesn't mean we shouldn't look at lurkers, like I was pointing out in the post you quoted.

[*]posting a lot in order to subconciously make people think they need to scumhunt)

Again, correct observation, wrong conclusion. I post a lot because I tend to have a lot I want to say. But I think I'm pretty blatant about what I want people to think about.

[*]There's some interesting repeated soft-defence of dana (#1119, #1130, #1194, #1145, #1567/#1568), pretty much to the extent of buddying; this is scummy behaviour regardless of dana's alignment.[/quote]

You call it defense, I call it probing votes that seem to be coming with no reason. It feels like scum is trying to push dana being scum and other people jumping on it when I think town would be providing something resembling a case, instead of just "oh he's scummy". It's why I think you're town, because you actually put a case on me with your vote.

There's also a lot of bad blood between saulres and RedPanda; I've seen quite a bit of RedPanda's side of the argument in the QT (and will be discussing it with him), but I'd like to see the other side.

@saulres: What's your opinion on RedPanda's alignment?

You can see my opinion and the reasoning here. I won't give you links to "my side" because that would mean looking at his posts again where he threw personal insults at me, in violation of both the game and site rules. I want nothing to do with him any more and hope, really really hope, that this game doesn't come down to a LyLo with both him and me in it because I have no idea what I'd do then.

I'll tell you that it started because I was looking at the briz wagon from yesterday to identify who I should ISO to look for scum on it, and I mentioned Panda's name due to the way he placed the vote on briz. At that point he started throwing personal attacks.

FoS: inte (please consider this a genuine vote, I originally had it as an actual vote but I changed it to a FoS for what I hope are obvious reasons; I will change it to a vote if inte collects enough FoSes to lynch him)

I've essentially already done that (bottom of 1763) but I'm good with doing it this way too for ease of tracking.

FoS: inte

[saulres]

I claimed an inno on him

When did you claim inno on (theam or BB -- it's unclear who "he" is)?

It was in post 1670, and it was on BBmolla.

So dana has claimed:
A role that ties into Shadow's in such a way that if she targeted him it would be bad for town and especially for her,
An ability to become mason/neighbors with someone,
A mass cop ability that determines alignment by gender,
A specific cop ability that targeted BBMolla.

Is

that

why everyone thinks he's scummy? Because, I mean, WTF?

[saulres]

Sigh.

@Mod

: Requesting prod of Pokerface

[saulres]

simpler and less powerful than that.

"simpler and less powerful than" what?

[saulres]

Than what you said about them of course.

???

The things I have mentioned are simpler and less powerful than what I said about the things I have mentioned?

I'm not trying to rolefish, please understand that, but I

am

trying to understand what it is you're saying. mcqueen's posts make more sense.

Speaking of which -- mcqueen, going to the site requires copy-pasting some text you wrote up. How about you start contributing with the text, and let us worry about if the translation is so annoying we can't understand you?

[saulres]

Ah okay. That explanation helped. Thank you.

[saulres]

Y R U GATNG SO DAFANSIEV??!!????! OMG I STAET HOW ANOYNG MAH POST RASTRICTION IS AND U TEL ME 2 LET U GUYS WORY ABOUT IT?!!???!? WTF LOL WUT KIND OF PLAY IS TAHT

IMA GO OUT ON A LIMB H3R3 SINC3 I HAEV NO OTH3R PLAEC FOR MAH VOT3 -
VOTE: saulres

Oh my gosh! I asked someone who's contributed very little to try to contribute more, and let the rest of us try to make the best of what his post restriction is! That's like the worse scummove ever!

Vote: sau--

Oh wait. No.

So there goes mcqueen into my leaning scum pile. And callforjudgment said I'm running out of reads

[saulres]

Umm... Guys? This game won't play itself.

Also:

No way is a secret double voter a "worst role" for scum. Theam is town.

May I present a counterpoint?

No way is a secret double voter a "worst role" for town. Theam is scum.

What could make it a worst role, causing so many people to replace out? Maybe a no-win condition (you, the Dummy's Partner, are scum, and win with the scum. The Dummy is town and wins with the town. You win if both you and the Dummy win). Maybe some bizarre 3rd-party combination. Whatever. But to assume that the Dummy's Partner and the Dummy both have the same alignment seems a

lot

less like a likely possibility than them having conflicting alignments. And since the Dummy flipped town...

[saulres]

I went looking for him in your ISO to see what your case was again, but I got very tripped up by this od post:

Oh yeah Oversoul is scum,

Haddock is probably just dumb from what I've been told

. Amrun is probably town. Phil is town. Tierce is town. I think Shadowgirl is town from what I recall. No idea on Saulres. Knox is probably town, but I could see scum getting his post restriction and I don't know how to read through his PR. I think Red is town. AI is prob town. Iceguy is prob scum. Alt idk. Robotnick is prob scum.

dana is prob scum, especially with Haddock-town.

I have no idea if Pokerface is dumb or scum, but he's one of them. ML is probably town for vote magnet. Brizingre is prob scum iirc. Unsure on Foxace, if there is scum in the masons it's him. I think amatuer is town.

Done.

Why there do you have Haddock as non-scum and then as town, where everywhere else you don't?

[saulres]

*odd post

[saulres]

mcqueen, I think you're town.

Why?

You said yourself that he hasn't done much scumhunting. You said yourself he "hasn't contributed much due to being kidnapped for much of the game" but in the time he wasn't kidnapped he

also

didn't contribute much. You said yourself he doesn't have "much of a reads list". The strongest reason you gave for him being town was "modWIFOM".

So, why do you think he's town?

[saulres]

469 you were doing nothing (again) so I looked for help on lynching what at the time was obvscum to not just me but also to (almost?) everyone else on the wagon. More importantly, I offered you a link to the argument for your assessment, which you apparently looked at and agreed with before throwing down your vote (which didn't even count because the hammer had already been reached (although to be fair I didn't realize that either)). So, no.

576 you took out of context, I was having trouble understanding BB as you can see if you read the whole discussion instead of just that one isolated post. So, again, no.

[saulres]

Just as a thought for you when looking at "Worst versions of a VT" -- those could just as easily be "Worst versions of a Goon", especially when the source doesn't specify.

Here's the source for his claimed role. And it doesn't specify.

I can't imagine that all of us with non-specified alignments in our source posts are assigned to town; that would be game-breaking if we all claimed.

[saulres]

How many groupscum do you think we have?

I have no basis for reference. This is the largest game I've ever played in and I asked that question early on, and it was never answered.

[saulres]

Hmm, now I'm starting to doubt my read on inte…

Based on setup speculation of number of scum? Why?

If you want to go that route, inte's ability is actually a pretty good scum role; no one's going to want to vote you so you have a good chance of living to the end of the game. So is Phil's, no one with a town PR, and no SK, is going to want to use it on you at night.

What do you think of this as a possible PR for scum: "while you live, all scum will flip as town"

Izak said

semi

-bastard. That would be totally bastard imo.

But I don't remember seeing anything like that in the Worst Roles thread when I was searching on "flip*".

pedit: Yes I win with town.

[saulres]

Back to scumhunting instead of setup speculation.

call, you called (no pun intended) both me and Haddock out for tunneling. I'd just like to point out that if you look at BB's ISO, you can see that he's been tunneling on Haddock pretty much the entire game. mcqueen's just started essentially tunneling on me, too.

I really want to think of BB as town, really I do. But there are some associations I saw when I was looking through is ISO earlier -- with Phil (defending all game), inte (I already layed those out), and mcqueen (only two mentions, both meaningless) -- that's a little bit too uncomfortable for me, given those are his associations with 2 of my scumreads and one who's leaning...

[saulres]

saulres, I seem to remember someone saying (possibly somewhere completely other than this game) that BBmolla, you, and Tierce were all pretty good at reading each other. Is that true? If so, what do you think of Tierce's townread on BBmolla?

Tierce-BB: BB said earlier in this game that Tierce was good at reading him, so that's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If it's said elsewhere, I haven't seen it (but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist). I can't remember if Tierce said here that she's good at reading him but I can look when I have more time.

Me-BB: I don't think I've played with BB before so I don't know how either of us would be good at reading each other. I don't recall watching his play when I was lurking, either.

Me-Tierce: I think I'm very good at reading her, but as to her reading me -- I have absolutely zero games where I've flipped scum, so I'm not sure how she'd have any reference.

@YYR

: Yes, I agree that associations are only useful after flips. But pointing out possible ones in the case we get a flip of one of them, and I'm not around to talk about it, is I think not a bad idea. (And BTW BB's done it at least once if not more times this game iirc)

[saulres]

This is pretty worrying in the lack of attention to the game it shows. I wasn't even playing when Tierce said those things; and one of the only things about this game I remembered as I replaced in was that Tierce was very very sure that a) she could read BBmolla accurately, and that b) he was town. If you're missing that, it's most likely because you don't really care about BBmolla's alignment. And that? Means you probably already know, i.e. you're scum.

No, rather quite the opposite. I had a town read on Tierce, but she had a scumread on me, so I knew she wasn't getting her reads right this game, and therefore I didn't pay much attention to her opinions. You can see I didn't know her reads when I asked BB about what he posted in the post linked to in that link.

@YYR

: I didn't see that thread (my stalking has gone down quite a bit lately), but he's wrong there. I'd point it out to him but that would be talking about this game, so afterwards. If he were in this game he'd vouch for my ability to read Tierce, though -- I've sent him PMs in at least one game he's run that she's been in saying "She's scum" and yes, I was right. So

BB

, you're wrong when you said there's only one part of that "triangle" that's accurate.

Also, the reason I mentioned BB doing it was because if you're going to call me out on it when you think I'm scum, then it's only fair that you call out those you think of as town who do it as well. Otherwise you're being hypocritical at best and intentionally deceptive at worst.

Cute bunny though

[saulres]

No you silly goose.

My description of the relationships between the 3 of us is accurate. Yours was not.

Nice twisting there though.

[saulres]

You asked me "So?" I answered your question.

I'm sorry you don't like my answer.

[saulres]

This has nothing to do with Tierce's read on BBmolla and you know it. Or does getting one read wrong automatically make all the other reads wrong?

No of course it doesn't make them wrong. But it doesn't make them right, either. If there are arguments and cases, fine, those may be valid and need to be evaluated, but reads based on ethereals? Not so much.

Also look at what she's arguing in those posts: That his use of his ability to summon her is an argument for him being town. I was one of those arguing the opposite, but then he posted something -- I think it was 639 -- that convinced me it wasn't an alignment-tell and I dropped that line of thinking. That's why I don't remember those posts you quoted -- their content is pretty much all about an argument that was resolved in my head days ago.