Open 590: Diffusion of Power (Town Win)

[Mentor]

/confirm

We can vote for people already?

[Mentor]

/confirm

We can vote for people already?

Obviously.

Don't you see all the votes?

Well I don't know. I thought everyone had to confirm first. I'm not sure where the game begins.

[Mentor]

/confirm

We can vote for people already?

VOTE: Mentor

False apprehension.

New scum spotted.

What does this mean?

[Mentor]

/confirm

We can vote for people already?

VOTE: Mentor

False apprehension.

New scum spotted.

What does this mean?

You're concerned over whether we can vote, rather than the voting itself.

Mmm.. not quite. I asked because I'm not sure what's acceptable or not and I wanna follow the mod rules, but that doesn't mean I'm not concerned with who's voting who. I think that's a pretty big leap to take without actually asking me what I thought about any of the votes.

[Mentor]

Day will start after 10 confirmations

Because this says we start after 10 confirmations so I wanted to know if they were just joke votes or serious votes or what. The mod hasn't officially announced the start of the game so are all these votes actually meaning something or are people just joking around with each other? It's important for me to understand the basis and intention of a vote if I'm going to evaluate whether it's worthwhile or not, don't you think?

[Mentor]

What do you think about the current votes?

Well, see my last post. I'm not really sure. I'm having a hard time following the conversation, to be honest, and I'm still confused about the game start thing, because no one has really answered me.

[Mentor]

But I just meant that guy attacked me with a fallacious argument without bothering to actually question me first. It seems weird.

[Mentor]

I started off joking.

I'm not joking any more.

But you are voting for me.

[Mentor]

Unless I missed something, I don't see your reasoning posted.

[Mentor]

I mean, you say you're not joking but you voted me without saying why, and this is the first time you're actually talking to me, so I don't really understand how you can vote someone first and then come up with reasons to vote for them after.

[Mentor]

Take what GC said.

Apply it to me.

Ok but that's his reasoning, not yours. What if he is scum?

[Mentor]

I also discussed why I thought that was a bad argument, but you don't seem to care about that. You are fine taking his argument as your own but unwilling to address any rebuttals for it?

[Mentor]

What if he is town?

What if he is? I want to know why you think his opinion is more valuable than your own? I mean, if you agree with something, that's fine, but the fact of the matter is that he's wrong, and not only that, I made a very clear case on why his reasoning is faulty, but you haven't really talked about that.

I mean, if you don't know a person's intentions, it seems unwise to so easily follow their argument. It's not like you came up with it on your own so it's not like you know exactly why he made that statement. It seems kind of easy to follow someone else's reasoning, since when questioned you don't actually have to explain it, you can just say "I'm using his argument" and shirk all the responsibility for the vote.

[Mentor]

You seemed nervous to vote.

I'm going to take that as a newb scum tell.

How is not being familiar with how the game works "nervous"? That's really silly...

What are your thoughts on the other players who have posted so far?

So far, I don't like you.

[Mentor]

Take what GC said.

Apply it to me.

Ok but that's his reasoning, not yours. What if he is scum?

I still want you to answer this. It wasn't rhetorical.

[Mentor]

What if he is town?

What if he is? I want to know why you think his opinion is more valuable than your own?

I mean, if you agree with something, that's fine, but the fact of the matter is that he's wrong, and not only that, I made a very clear case on why his reasoning is faulty, but you haven't really talked about that.

I mean, if you don't know a person's intentions, it seems unwise to so easily follow their argument. It's not like you came up with it on your own so it's not like you know exactly why he made that statement. It seems kind of easy to follow someone else's reasoning, since when questioned you don't actually have to explain it, you can just say "I'm using his argument" and shirk all the responsibility for the vote.

This as well, please.

[Mentor]

VOTE: VOTE: Blue Blooded Toffee

Green Crayon - What's RVS? Also, a lot of the assumptions you are making about me are incorrect. I think you either have a misunderstanding about what I've said, or you are trying to take an easy shot at someone who is new here. In either case, I'm town and you are wrong.

[Mentor]

Take what GC said.

Apply it to me.

Ok but that's his reasoning, not yours. What if he is scum?

I still want you to answer this. It wasn't rhetorical.

What if he is town?

What if he is? I want to know why you think his opinion is more valuable than your own?

I mean, if you agree with something, that's fine, but the fact of the matter is that he's wrong, and not only that, I made a very clear case on why his reasoning is faulty, but you haven't really talked about that.

I mean, if you don't know a person's intentions, it seems unwise to so easily follow their argument. It's not like you came up with it on your own so it's not like you know exactly why he made that statement. It seems kind of easy to follow someone else's reasoning, since when questioned you don't actually have to explain it, you can just say "I'm using his argument" and shirk all the responsibility for the vote.

This as well, please.

Are you ever going to respond?

[Mentor]

I am trying to figure out how a game is supposed to go here and instead of asking me to explain things you obviously do not understand, you continue to attack me. That doesn't make any sense. It's like you're not actually interested in finding the truth, and only interested in proving your case.

[Mentor]

I just said to you I was voting you before GC.

I voted you for the reasons GC stated.

Right. But you had no reasons until GC gave you one...

[Mentor]

And when I asked you to explain your vote, since it was made without any explanation, you told me to use GC's reasoning.

So, you still haven't answered the question.

[Mentor]

If I had no reasons, why would I vote you?

Good question.

Can you please answer the questions I asked of you and stop dodging them?

[Mentor]

I really can't see any reason for a town person to be unwilling to answer questions about their thoughts.

[Mentor]

Take what GC said.

Apply it to me.

Ok but that's his reasoning, not yours. What if he is scum?

I still want you to answer this. It wasn't rhetorical.

What if he is town?

What if he is? I want to know why you think his opinion is more valuable than your own?

I mean, if you agree with something, that's fine, but the fact of the matter is that he's wrong, and not only that, I made a very clear case on why his reasoning is faulty, but you haven't really talked about that.

I mean, if you don't know a person's intentions, it seems unwise to so easily follow their argument. It's not like you came up with it on your own so it's not like you know exactly why he made that statement. It seems kind of easy to follow someone else's reasoning, since when questioned you don't actually have to explain it, you can just say "I'm using his argument" and shirk all the responsibility for the vote.

This as well, please.

Are you ever going to respond?

Please answer.

[Mentor]

I voted you because of your nervousness about placing a vote/enquiry into people placing votes.

You say this now. Why didn't you say that then? Why didn't you offer this explanation when asked, instead of telling me to go look at someone else's reasons?

[Mentor]

/confirm

We can vote for people already?

VOTE: Mentor

I mean, you saw this happen right?

Then why did you tell me to use GC's reasons?

[Mentor]

It's not his opinion. It's my opinion, GC just stated it first.

It doesn't look that way.

[Mentor]

I voted you because of your nervousness about placing a vote/enquiry into people placing votes.

You say this now. Why didn't you say that then? Why didn't you offer this explanation when asked, instead of telling me to go look at someone else's reasons?

Sometimes, a naked vote achieves more than an explained vote.

Ok. So what did you achieve?

[Mentor]

I mean, the question still stands though. Even if you actually had reasons of your own that happened to be stated by someone else, why didn't you offer your own reasons when asked to explain your vote, instead of just pointing me in someone else's direction?

[Mentor]

Mentor, it was obvious why BBT was voting you from the context in which the vote was placed, and I thought that I was voting you for the same reasons that BBT when I put my vote down on you.

Mountain, molehill.

How is it obvious? It wasn't to me and it's my post.

[Mentor]

I tried to explain it and you turned it inside out and changed the meaning, and said I was wrong, which is weird, since it's my POV and not yours, so it's not "wrong".

And I don't care if you don't like it. I feel like you are ganging up on me for something that isn't even remotely related to my assigned role.

[Mentor]

I don't understand how people can just vote someone for nothing. I asked if we were allowed to vote because I thought we weren't, and from there I didn't understand if people knew that and it was just something I missed, or if people didn't know that, and that changes the value of the votes. If people know they can vote then the votes are more intentional. If they know they can't vote, then they are jokes and don't carry as much weight. Like, where is the point that the game actually begins because it seems like people are already being serious about things but they know the votes don't actually count yet? Or what? I don't get it.

It's very confusing and I don't think it's fair that I'm being penalized for asking a simple question to the mod and STILL not getting an answer and at the same time having to defend myself from idiotic arguments about something that isn't even about who is mafia and who isn't.

[Mentor]

@Mentor:

Are you just new to this site, or are you new to mafia?

I understand the basic premise. There's town and mafia and the mafia are supposed to know who the town are and the town people don't know who the mafia people are and we're supposed to talk about it and decide a person to remove from the game if we think they are mafia. And then there's other special stuff that can help town find mafia like cops and things like that.

[Mentor]

I've never played before.

[Mentor]

I don't understand how that changes anything. If you thought something was a tell how does my experience change that for you?

[Mentor]

I tried to note down some of my thoughts as I caught up but it is a lot of pages. I will probably read it again later tonight and try to clarify my thoughts.

The biggest thing was this response from ChriVi:

GTFO of our game you piece of trash

...

God we're blacklisting you as soon as this game is over..

It seems way over the top and barely addresses the points brought up in Antihero's post.

This too..

Unless you're not the person that I'm thinking of, in which case go fuck yourself.

NM thought the post sounded fake and I had the same reaction.

I'm actually pretty concerned about this attitude. Is this game-related or what... because NM wasn't being an asshole, but these people definitely are.

I know you're a giant asshole

VOTE: VOTE: ChriVi

I'm a little surprised you haven't been warned by the mod for being overly volatile to other players, 'GTFO piece of trash and I'm blacklisting you after the game' is quite excessive for questioning

Yeah.... actually.

House is confirmed town.

How did this happen? I only saw one post from him, or maybe two, so far.

@BBT: After taunting people into voting you, and then promising to hunt scum off of your wagon, you've instead voted Killa for five words ("risk being misread as scum").

I was going to ask about this but couldn't figure out the words I wanted to use. I thought the Killa vote came out of left field. It didn't make sense to me based on previous posts.

I don't really see the point in looking at who voted me before the game had actually started; especially when some of those people have pursued other options since.

Yeah but you were giving me shit for not knowing about the votes and saying that your vote was serious, so the prior votes, whether they counted or not, should still be valid enough for you to scum hunt off your wagon, but now you don't want to because "they didn't count"??? What?

So, what do you say we stop pussy-footing around with the finger-pointing and mass claim?

I don't know if I like this idea. What is the benefit?

Thus, upon a cop dying, town cannot analyze to see whether that cop had already used its power

Yeah but cops who survive through their investigation should be claiming results right away anyway right? Since they only get the one night so after are then useless.

You said this in your next paragraph.

ChriVi (4): Antihero, Not_Mafia, killapenwin, Green Crayons
BlueBloodedToffee (3): ChriVi, Newbie, randomidget
randomidget (1): inte
killapenwin (1): BlueBloodedToffee

Not Voting (4): House, Creative, NJAC, Mentor

I like all the people on the ChriVi wagon.

Antihero took the time to address ChriVi's statements, to which they just lashed back with nastiness, instead of saying why they think he was wrong. More nastiness at NM for calling the reaction fake, despite the notion being observed by more than a couple people. I liked killa's response to BBT also, and of the two who argued with me in the beginning, Green Crayon seemed the most interested in what I had to say, whereas BBT was just trying to pin me with anything he could come up with.

claiming which NIGHT (but not the ROLE) could be useful to let docs know who to protect because scum don't have an rb to counter it

But what if there's a cop with a missing night? Wouldn't it just allow the mafia to zero in on one of two, or only one target for each night? I mean, it effectively increases the odds of losing someone important from 1 in however many to 50% if two same-night claims, and 100% if only one.

I really don't like the BBT seems to be creating "slips" and "tells" out of thin air and hammering them until he realizes it's not going anywhere.

I also don't like the lynch bait statements. I don't understand the purpose of those. I mean, if you are town, why would you point out that someone is lynch bait, especially without prompting and without using it as a reason to explain why you think a particular something about that person? It seems kind of like, if one mafia says that about his partner as a way to deter votes on that person, and using it to accuse people of going after easy pickings. I guess I don't understand how it's really relevant. If you are town, it doesn't matter, especially if you know someone gets lynched easily, you still don't know their alignment.

I assume Chriv is scum and by extension that Anti could be also.

I don't agree with this statement at all. If ChriVi is scum, I'm going to say that Antihero and NM are probably not.

I'm surprised that Chrivi didn't continue to engage further with killa and that it's just these few posts.

Oh, this is actually an interesting observation. I'm not sure what it means, so I'm just putting this here to remind myself later.

Hey Antihero, I wanna tunnel you.

Scumread me, please.

This post is really, really, really weird. Why would you want to force a suspicion? I don't get it.

someone sumarize this shit wagon on ChriVi in 5 words or less

This is actually really interesting to me because I don't see any reason for anyone to be defending ChriVi, especially from someone who hasn't really said much about anything. Is it common for mafia to defend people? It seems like it might be a way to gain trust for a "correct" read, so if ChriVi were to turn up town I think I would actually look at this person to be mafia. And from the wagon, maybe killapenwin, but at the moment, I definitely think ChriVi is mafia. Hmm.. actually if ChriVi ended up mafia I would still think inte was mafia for this post. That seems backwards... but it makes sense to me. Does that mean inte is more likely to be mafia in any case or not?

VOTE: VOTE: inte

You're fucking stupid

Go back to newbie games if you can't handle a little swearing

Me hating anti is un-alignment related. Your vote is useless. You are being anti-town.

That doesn't explain the nastiness you've given to everyone else. I think this is really uncalled for.

@mod: I'm starting to get a bit uncomfortable with the way this player is treating people.

Nice sheep, fuckass.

Newbie, I haven't even fucking /been/ here to engage more with killa. Now that I am, obviously: VOTE: Killa.

Newbie + killa scumwagon, anybody?

@Mod: is there any option to vote to have a player removed or do I have to wait for them to break rules first?

I really think you should be removed... instead.

I don't know what happened on the last page. I saw a vote that looked like a hammer and I wanted to get this posted.

[Mentor]

^ Scumposting.

Mentor either wanted to make sure ChriVi was hammered in case mine wasn't the hammer vote (which it was, so...), or he wanted to look like he was "with town" on wanting ChriVi out of the game.

The flip will tell which of the two.

I don't really get what you're trying to say here, but this post makes me feel like you didn't really read anything I had to say.

[Mentor]

I mean, aren't you the one that hammered, knowing it was the hammer?

[Mentor]

mentor are you an alt

I don't know what you're asking me.

[Mentor]

no. it's house.

VOTE: house

[Mentor]

Catching up.

UNVOTE:

[Mentor]

Random is conf town. Are you claiming a cop guilty Mentor?

If he does, he needs to be turbolynched tomorrow.

I do not. I really didn't like what you did at the end of D1, and was going to vote you for it yesterday but you guys lynched so fast and I never even got a chance to post. Longest. Night. Ever.

This response, however, changed my mind.

Why did that happen, by the way? The super lynch, I mean. Why didn't anyone stop to ask questions? Why did NM vote without any explanation at the start of the day as if to suggest he had a guilty and then let it go through without clarifying it? That's balls.

VOTE: inte

I really hate this. I really really hate when people do this. Can we please explain things when we vote? It would make it much easier for me to understand what you're doing.

^ Scumposting.

Mentor either wanted to make sure ChriVi was hammered in case mine wasn't the hammer vote (which it was, so...), or he wanted to look like he was "with town" on wanting ChriVi out of the game.

The flip will tell which of the two.

VOTE: Mentor

This is why I didn't like you. Unless you somehow think I wrote all that up between your vote and me posting it, you are way off. AND you were the one that

knowingly

hammered which suggested to me that you were trying to get it over with to avoid any further discussion and to gain some kind of position on the wagon at the last minute.

Not to mention.... I was voting Inte.

ok so GC was real, therefore random is also confirmed.

between killapenwin votes there is probably one of the mafia team

killapenwin (6) - LYNCH: House, Newbie, Green Crayons, inte, Not_Mafia, BlueBloodedToffee

I think Newbie and inte are both towns, so i think is very likely that there is atleast one mafia of House, Not_mafia or BBT

Ok. First of all - why is inte town?? Why is Newbie town? I seriously have no recollection of Newbie doing anything substantial.

ChriVi, Mafia Goon, Lynched d1
Antihero, Town N-3 Cop, Killed n1
killapenwin, Town N-5 Cop, Lynched d2
Green Crayons, Town N-1 Cop, Killed n2

Ok, GC was N1 cop. I can see that thing with random. Fine.

On the killa wagon, I'm looking at inte, NM or BBT, with preference on inte then BBT.

Also... I was under the impression that the night assignments would not be flipped?

Why do you think inte and I are town and BBT is possibly one of the mafia?

Why are you interested in yourself, inte and myself and excluding NM and House?

Why are you interested in Newbie's self-interest?

I would think self-interest comes from being nervous about how people are reading you, and the only people who would be nervous about that are scum. Town just get mad.

House reads are so off that i can´t believe that they come from a townie perspective

How do you know they are off? Which reads in particular are you talking about? Also, I don't really get how you think town somehow magically have the best reads and never scumread other town people. That seems backwards since the town don't know anything at all. How long does a person have to be on the site in order to be expected to have all correct reads? And is House one of these people?

I would like to vote inte but I see a lot of votes and want to see a vote count.

[Mentor]

not_mafia is not guilty.

[Mentor]

Is that a cop result?

yes. N3 cop.

[Mentor]

Official Vote Count

Not Voting

(7): Newbie, Creative, Mentor, House, randomidget, BlueBloodedToffee, Not_Mafia

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2015-04-08 21:00:00)

house nm and random clear, yes?

that leaves newbie creative and bbt.

VOTE: BBT

Fixed vote

[Mentor]

ya hey awesome.