NY 183 - Apocalypse Mafia

[Drixx]

Whoah ... there's nothing friendly about that folks, lol.

There's nearly 3,700 posts to read through. I could use a quick summation of what I need to look at since I'm apparently replacing into being wagoned. Normally I would read the entire game first but I don't seem to have the time apparently.

[Drixx]

The most recent pages back up that assertion. I'm just a VT.

What do I need to read first? Are there any good summary posts so I can avoid a 3700 post catch-up?

[Drixx]

If you guys lynch me you just save me the reading of 3700+ posts and kill a VT. So if you're cool with mislynching a replacement before he even settles into the game ... that's on you.

[Drixx]

If you guys will give me a chance to review the thread, it's far enough into the game that what I'm good at (finding inconsistency in scum narratives) can be useful.

As for my name, that's a long story. A very dear friend used the name in one of the first generation MMO games, and I adopted it after he disappeared (presumed dead). Prior to that I used various other nicks. I've used this one pretty much exclusively since then.

[Drixx]

About halfway through the game. Had an episode of Autonomic Dysreflexia this evening so I'm pretty knackered and will resume tomorrow. Going to be offline sitewide. Even gonna put up a V/LA thing in my profile for 24 hours.

[Drixx]

Not so. You can look at my post history if you like. If you are unfamiliar with what Autonomic Dysreflexia is, this link is a concise and accurate overview. It is unpleasant in the extreme.

[Drixx]

You all should really take a look at the link I provided about what Autonomic Dysreflexia is. I had a pretty severe and ~5 hour grapple with it the day I put up my V/LA. I've been posting as I can and reading this game as I can, but it's not the sort of thing one just gets over and goes "oh, all better, I'll totally go read 4,000 posts and try to convince people who had me at L-2 when I replaced in that they shouldn't lynch me". If you want to kill me before I've settled in and given you my thoughts, you can do that. I think the game would be way better off if you didn't though.

[Drixx]

Can someone tell me why the slot I replaced into was being wagoned and why RIP just voted me after I asked to have time to share my thoughts, and then said someone else should be lynched?

[Drixx]

Well unless the mod sent me the wrong role PM by mistake, the theory that my slot is scum because its previous player flaked and didn't submit a kill is mistaken. You may still feel like lynching me is the best play, but you should talk through other options because you aren't going to get scum out of my flip. Shouldn't waste the time on that assumption.

[Drixx]

Like. Drixx, I'm sorry about your condition, and I highly doubt you /want/ to read the game and fight your lynch, but I think if you were town you'd at least be trying, or you'd replace out instead of doing /absolutely nothing/ except saying 'oh yeah I'm VT you shouldn't lynch me.'

Okay cool, well you can apologize for your faux sincerity later. You can check my post history and see what that brush with unpleasantness impacted. If you want something substantive from me, you're going to have to wait for me to read the thread.

Remember how I asked for a summary or a link to good summary posts? I don't recall anyone giving a summary or linking to any summary posts.

I asked for what the case against me was, and apparently it's because I replaced someone who site flaked and a no kill happened so there's not actually any reason in my slot ISO to suspect me. That sort of thing is frowned upon isn't it? I mean ... isn't the reason you can't see when someone is online/offline and what they are doing on the site set the way it is because people would try and game the game by seeing who was doing PMs at night phase and watching for people to be online at times that gave clues as to whether they had a role or clues to their alignment.

Trying to game the game using things outside the game is just not cool. You shouldn't do it.

If someone wants to give me a summary, that would be super cool. If not, you can wait until I finish reading the 4,000 posts for my thoughts on everyone alive. That's how it goes. I don't replace into a game if I'm not willing to read through and catch up on what happened, in context. It is in context where a lot of things can get missed by lazy replacements. Not the way I roll (intentional joke).

There's like nearly 7 days until the deadline and apparently there's like only a couple people under lynch consideration ... so there seems to be no reason to rush just at the moment.

The question that occurs to me at the moment is:

Who benefits from silencing me before I can share my thoughts on the game and the players alive with fresh eyes?

-- Town players would do well to ask that question; you may find it useful in your thinking about the game. I happily have tomorrow free of obligations so shouldn't take me too much more time to finish reading the thread.

[Drixx]

Hopefully we'll be friends going forward Grib, and then you can totally be sincere.

I haven't made any notes and such as I go along, because I personally read that as overly showy and it usually gives me a scum vibe. Perhaps I should re-evaluate how I view that?

@Rubicon - Not overwhelmed or emotionally bothered at all. If one plays mafia, one is going to get voted and lynched. The most likely statistical outcome of a given game is that you will be a townie and be lynched. If you can't handle that, don't play.

Thank you for telling me that anything that I need to know or talk about has been covered and/or referred to since I replaced in. That will make my ability to be productive and useful considerably more quick.

[Drixx]

Yeah, sorry if it seemed otherwise. Text is a poor communicator of tone. So much of human communication comes from tone and body language that it can be super easy to see something in text that isn't, or to miss something in text that is. For future reference, if you ever have occasion to see me actually mad during a mafia game, there will be absolutely zero possibility of any doubt. It's not pleasant for anyone and it very rarely happens.

I'm going back to the first post I made and reading from there, as advised. I will make notes on what I come up with. I'll be doing this off and on for the next couple hours as a break from a lengthy project I'm working on.

[Drixx]

Anyone in the game good with VCA?

[Drixx]

Well that blows.

[Drixx]

So this Drixx scum game just ended.

RIP, any new results?

That game was unbelievably taxing. I was scum and managed to bring home a win despite the rest of my team being dead for the last couple of months real time. So yeah, enjoy if you want to read the longest game ever and see me somehow pull it off. Rubicon rightly reasoned that my illness that came up combined with that ridiculously epicly difficult game going into its final day contributed heavily to my inability to properly scumhunt in here. I'm much more free now and have actually slept for 8 consecutive hours in the last day, heh.

I hope to have some useful stuff within the first 24 hours of this day phase. I had hoped that the SMITE game would resolve a bit faster on the last day than it did, allowing me to focus on catching up better here while we were in night phase.

So yeah, sorry bout that. Just bad timing. I live with low intensity Autonomic Dysreflexia as just a fact of life. That one that I V/LA'd for was really bad. I spent around 6 hours in the really critical hypertensive state (think 220/160 blood pressure). It thankfully was able to be resolved without a hospitalization, but it really took a lot out of me. I almost replaced out sitewide because of how poorly I felt after it. I was legit really fatigued and having a hard time getting the basic necessities done every day, let alone game stuff.

Please just give me a bit of time to properly get into this. The game seems interesting, and since I'm VT, it's an opportunity for me to keep working on my town game. 0

ugh, am I still alive

Drixx, please post? Or at least update on why you aren't.

See Above. Super happy that game is done. Super happy I'm feeling better and that SMITE is over. That is probably the best game I have

ever

played in nearly a decade of forum mafia. It took an absurd amount out of me.

wow I forgot I changed my avatar

That is scary. Just saying.

[Drixx]

And congratulations on the win!

It's funny. I was super aware of how narrow the path I was walking to try and win was ... but I actually had no idea. There were at least a half dozen places where if I had made a slightly different move, I wouldn't have made it. I don't think I was quite sane near the end of that game. When the scum PT gets opened up you can go have a laugh at me talking to myself, heh.

Off to actually work on

this

game now.

[Drixx]

I'm sorry Rubicon, but your suggested reading range didn't really give me the feeling of being plugged into the game. I'm going to go back and read from context. Does anyone want an update every 15-20 pages of thoughts, or can I just post my notes when I finish?

[Drixx]

Drixx, I will probably lynch you if you don't start posting your thoughts.

First update incoming in a bit then. I'll try and post thoughts as I go, although I generally view that as really showy coming from a replacement. I'm actually pretty good at figuring out the game late, so I'd kind of like to not get lynched if that's possible.

[Drixx]

Rubicon is totally a stalker. Also Nero just made a kill order list which is scummy. Back in a bit.

[Drixx]

I really don't see anything that I can defend myself with. I'm being suspected for mechanics reasons and not something that came out of my slot. Either you believe my claim and I keep trying to see if I can spot the scum narrative slip that I know has to be there in a game 4200 posts long ... or you can lynch me if that somehow helps town. I'm not a PR, and the only thing I bring to the table is rational analysis of the game. I believe my best play is in the late game figuring out where scum narratives had to adjust for unexpected things, but that takes time and work to figure out. I've got a white board with some thoughts scribbled on it, but I wouldn't be the game on any specific person being scum just yet.

I'm dumping as much time as I have into this game right now.

[Drixx]

You guys don't use whiteboards? It's super easy to organize thoughts using the free version of Twiddla.

Just to make sure I understand this correctly: more than half the game have implicitly or explicitly called me a liar at this point? Elusive went so far as to mock me despite objective evidence that my late game play is legit.

I should be motivated to sink time into what is supposed to be fun when you guys are being nasty why?

[Drixx]

Here's the deal. I have a significant sample of completed games on site, of varying sizes and lengths. I also, obviously, have ongoing games on site. You all may feel free to view all of my games and feel just as free to point out any completed game where I just lurksacked and didn't engage or where I said something was the case and it was not. You have zero basis to attack me personally, and it's outright bullshit, especially from people who know me from prior games.

Games don't just magically click into place and solve themselves. It takes time and effort. You lot really expect that I should have just devoted every waking moment the last couple days to immersing into this game? I thought we had a lengthy amount of time to work with for a reason. I also, and I know this must be a shocker to those of you who are personally attacking me, have other hobbies. If you have nothing else to do with your time and can spend 12 hours a day on mafia games ... that's spectacular. I'm glad for you. I have a finite amount of time, and if that's not good enough for you, then just lynch me and see that I was being honest, and then look through who has played with me before and didn't want me to finish reading through and taking notes on the game.

Because my "giveashit" level for this game just went down to like 0.5 when I refreshed to keep up while in another tab I'm ~100 pages back.

[Drixx]

You said you have notes and they're incomplete. Please post them.

Go to that website I linked you and tell me the flaw in your clever plan. Or do you think I should drop $20 so I can invite the whole game to my whiteboard just so that

you will stop calling me a liar, without any evidence or reason to do so

?

[Drixx]

Elusive you have played with me before. You can also go look at my completed games. Have you ever seen me just lurk out of a game? Have I ever replaced out of a game? The answer to those question is a resounding no.

I haven't gotten ... for lack of a better word ... "hooked" into this game yet. Normally it only takes a little bit and I can get into the flow of things. It's uncommon for me to have trouble getting into mafia games. I greatly enjoy mafia.

I'll either get into this one and be useful or you'll be impatient and lynch me and see I'm a VT and hopefully that doesn't hurt the town. Given that the deadline is a significant length of time away, I think it's wicked premature to conclude that I am for some reason just completely being a different player than my entire time on site, for no discernible reason.

I mean ... I replaced into SMITE with the gamestate being awful, my team mates being completely demoralized and basically barely willing to even interact in the scum PT, let alone in game. At one point they were like 28 and 19 days inactive in the activity overview. I carried that to a scum win. If I was willing to do the work to get into

that

game, shouldn't that fact buy me some freaking benefit of the doubt here?


It's precisely because I'm not an imbecile that I haven't given reads yet. I have conflicting thoughts on a couple of players. I'm trying to read in context because I feel like I'm missing something by just looking at out of context things. Sometimes you can read an ISO and get a lot from it. Sometimes the context is the key. Rubicon's suggestion to just read from when I replaced in didn't end up with me having anyone I felt even remotely sure was scum. I'm doing what I know how to do, which is to read and note things that catch my attention.

The more I have to sit here and have an argument with people who should know better, the less I am doing what you want me to do.

[Drixx]

Let's start with Nero. Scummiest posts I can recall reading in years, but I can't give you anything more substantial yet than every time I read his posts my scumdar pings rapidly. I'm hoping to find something more substantial than my gut.

Rubicon is heavily invested in the game, to the point that he's stalking other people's games in progress and posting when they finish; however, he hasn't been night killed. That seems like poor decision making on the part of scum if he's town ... but I don't have anything more than that to add up to a case yet.

That's the sort of stuff I've got at the moment. Finding slips and making cases is work. Hi Ho Hi Ho, it's back to work I go.

4185 That's either the scummiest post yet, or it makes Forrest Gump look like Einstein. Deciding whom to lynch while doing nothing other than bitch at me is not exactly a town-centric strategy.

[Drixx]

We have 10 days and 17 hours on the deadline. I am irritated because I'm being called a liar and scum and people are trying to push me to do it half assed and there's loads of time left. I don't see any reason that me taking a couple more days and making a significant post that should be at least somewhat useful is a bad thing. You all may still decide to kill me because of that whole "Slot flaked, no kill happened, ergo slot is scum" ... "logic" ... but at least you'll have what I've got to say when you run me up and I flip town.

[Drixx]

Are you always an asshole Nero, or are you just bestowing me with some special attention?

[Drixx]

I wasn't aware nearly dying was an excuse. I'll have to note that for future reference. If nearly dying isn't a good reason not to dump time into a forum mafia game, then all reasons short of actual death must, by definition, be excuses.

[Drixx]

It's not in the article on what constitutes normal. I just read that last night actually, since I had a couple questions.

[Drixx]

Good day all. I seem to be on a rather strange schedule of late. I gave some quick thoughts yesterday just on recent stuff. Would that be appreciated while I continue to catch up? I'm nearing page 100 now so it should be later this evening when I can post thoughts.

Something doesn't make sense about the deaths, and I probably just haven't gotten to the posts that will make it make sense. Trying to spot someone whose narrative shifts (or goes inactive for no reason) when the weirder kills happened.

[Drixx]

EbWoP: Later this evening when I can post

more complete

thoughts.

[Drixx]

If you're so sure that Nero is going to flip town, then you ought to be looking somewhere besides he or I.

[Drixx]

Spoiler: stuff

Wow, there’s a lot of stuff I don’t like.

I really don't see anything that I can defend myself with.

I'm being suspected for mechanics reasons

and not something that came out of my slot. Either you believe my claim and I keep trying to see if I can spot the scum narrative slip that I know has to be there in a game 4200 posts long ... or you can lynch me if that somehow helps town. I'm not a PR, and the only thing I bring to the table is rational analysis of the game. I believe my best play is in the late game figuring out where scum narratives had to adjust for unexpected things, but that takes time and work to figure out. I've got a white board with some thoughts scribbled on it, but I wouldn't be the game on any specific person being scum just yet.

I'm dumping as much time as I have into this game right now.

That is not why you’re being suspected. Rubicon already went over this.

Posting thoughts as you go is not half-assing it. It’s letting us know you’re participating.

Just to make sure I understand this correctly: more than half the game have implicitly or explicitly called me a liar at this point? Elusive went so far as to mock me despite objective evidence that my late game play is legit.

I should be motivated to sink time into what is supposed to be fun when you guys are being nasty why?

Getting mad about getting called a liar in a game of lying?

It’s the whole ‘I’m reading and totally catching up’ thing that’s being attacked, not your IRL excuse. There’s nothing nasty about it.

Here's the deal. I have a significant sample of completed games on site, of varying sizes and lengths. I also, obviously, have ongoing games on site. You all may feel free to view all of my games and feel just as free to point out any completed game where I just lurksacked and didn't engage or where I said something was the case and it was not. You have zero basis to attack me personally, and it's outright bullshit, especially from people who know me from prior games.

Games don't just magically click into place and solve themselves. It takes time and effort. You lot really expect that I should have just devoted every waking moment the last couple days to immersing into this game? I thought we had a lengthy amount of time to work with for a reason. I also, and I know this must be a shocker to those of you who are personally attacking me, have other hobbies. If you have nothing else to do with your time and can spend 12 hours a day on mafia games ... that's spectacular. I'm glad for you. I have a finite amount of time, and if that's not good enough for you, then just lynch me and see that I was being honest, and then look through who has played with me before and didn't want me to finish reading through and taking notes on the game.

Because my "giveashit" level for this game just went down to like 0.5 when I refreshed to keep up while in another tab I'm ~100 pages back.

Okay, but we don’t need the entire history of your past games. Just for you to focus on this game. There are no personal attacks. You’re either getting mad over a misunderstanding, or this is fake scumrage to get us to back off.

Like. You claiming that us attacking you is making you less motivated and less likely to catch up is such a scumtell. I don’t know how you can’t see this.

You said you have notes and they're incomplete. Please post them.

Go to that website I linked you and tell me the flaw in your clever plan. Or do you think I should drop $20 so I can invite the whole game to my whiteboard just so that

you will stop calling me a liar, without any evidence or reason to do so

?

That’s not what he meant and you know it.

Elusive you have played with me before. You can also go look at my completed games. Have you ever seen me just lurk out of a game? Have I ever replaced out of a game? The answer to those question is a resounding no.

I haven't gotten ... for lack of a better word ... "hooked" into this game yet. Normally it only takes a little bit and I can get into the flow of things. It's uncommon for me to have trouble getting into mafia games. I greatly enjoy mafia.

I'll either get into this one and be useful or you'll be impatient and lynch me and see I'm a VT and hopefully that doesn't hurt the town. Given that the deadline is a significant length of time away, I think it's wicked premature to conclude that I am for some reason just completely being a different player than my entire time on site, for no discernible reason.

I mean ... I replaced into SMITE with the gamestate being awful, my team mates being completely demoralized and basically barely willing to even interact in the scum PT, let alone in game. At one point they were like 28 and 19 days inactive in the activity overview. I carried that to a scum win. If I was willing to do the work to get into

that

game, shouldn't that fact buy me some freaking benefit of the doubt here?


It's precisely because I'm not an imbecile that I haven't given reads yet. I have conflicting thoughts on a couple of players. I'm trying to read in context because I feel like I'm missing something by just looking at out of context things. Sometimes you can read an ISO and get a lot from it. Sometimes the context is the key. Rubicon's suggestion to just read from when I replaced in didn't end up with me having anyone I felt even remotely sure was scum. I'm doing what I know how to do, which is to read and note things that catch my attention.

The more I have to sit here and have an argument with people who should know better, the less I am doing what you want me to do.

Then stop making posts like these?

I honestly don’t know what’s taking so long. I think you’re probably doing a /lot/ more than you need to, which comes across as stalling.

We have 10 days and 17 hours on the deadline. I am irritated because I'm being called a liar and scum and people are trying to push me to do it half assed and there's loads of time left. I don't see any reason that me taking a couple more days and making a significant post that should be at least somewhat useful is a bad thing. You all may still decide to kill me because of that whole "Slot flaked, no kill happened, ergo slot is scum" ... "logic" ... but at least you'll have what I've got to say when you run me up and I flip town.

Okay, ten days. Please don’t disappoint.

Are you always an asshole Nero, or are you just bestowing me with some special attention?

Sigh.

I wasn't aware nearly dying was an excuse. I'll have to note that for future reference. If nearly dying isn't a good reason not to dump time into a forum mafia game, then all reasons short of actual death must, by definition, be excuses.

Okay, see, this is not okay.

If you’re going to continue playing in this game despite your condition, you will be held to the same basic standards as the rest of us. That includes being called a liar or scum when you seem suspicious (in your case, it looks like you’re stalling).

Because if your condition is that bad, then you shouldn’t be playing, because nobody wants to play with a person who’s going to fall back on something like ‘I nearly died, please leave me alone.’ Seriously, what the fuck? Guilt tripping people over a game /you/ decide to play /despite severe circumstances/ is such an asshole thing to do. Please stop it.

Drixx, you don't have to respond to this. I'm just letting you know.

My irritation was because the attack wasn't about my play. It was a straight out "You're lying about actually doing anything" which is an attack on me as a person.

Being told that I've just had "excuses" is the only reason I brought up the reason for my V/LA. Autonomic Dysreflexia has been a daily companion since I was 11 years old. The magnitude and duration of the particular episode that occurred and caused me to take that V/LA (and it's easy to confirm I did so sitewide) matches only two prior occasions in

decades

of dealing with my condition. My irritation stemmed from someone calling that an excuse. It's the

reason

I didn't click into this game as quickly as I would have liked. It was unforeseeable and also unlikely to occur to anywhere near that degree again any time soon.

If you all would like to be horribly grossed out, I could post a picture of what caused it. Had a cast on my left ankle and despite precautions taken to prevent it happening, developed something similar to a diabetic ulcer that became infected under the cast. It's doing quite well now, but we took a picture of it when they couldn't find any other cause for the severe autonomic response and removed the cast and found it. It's quite gnarly, but thankfully much better.

I've nearly caught up, and there's a really big question that I think will resolve some things in my mind:

@Shinobi: Hypothetically speaking, is the scum kill a factional ability that can be used by any member of the faction (for the purposes of blocking, tracking, etc...), while someone's actual role abilities are separate and may still be used? I have played in normal games on site which go either way and the normal guidelines do not address this. It seems to be a moderator's decision. Obviously you can decline to answer. I'm not trying to game you or anything, but knowing whether a posited final scum can do the factional kill and use his own abilities would really help me properly sort some confusing things in the game

I expect that we won't get an answer, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

[Drixx]

Dave's naked vote without reasoning kind of makes me re-evaluate what I was just about to post. I'm pretty sure Nero is scum and I've got some decent reasons for believing it.

Re-assessing Davesaz's ISO.

[Drixx]

Naked vote by davesaz is ironic. Also I spent every minute since the prior post doing this, so folks have an idea of the time it took.


Thankfully, there's not much to look through with Davesaz. He's been here since the start but has only ~2.75% of the posts, many of which aren't really much for content.


14 Unprompted town claim. There was no reason for him to even take the question seriously, and even less reason to make the claim soft. This reads like someone aware they are lying and overdoing it.


20 The first usage of emoticon. The pattern is interesting, as you'll see.


33 Speaks for itself, I think?


120 Huge gap until his next post, which is a naked jump onto the Boonskiies wagon. Interestingly, Boonskiies was mafia and killed during the night for going inactive and no replacement being found.

I'm not the only one to question the way he jumped onto the wagon either.


161 The emoticon makes a return, this time to laugh off the suggestion that a naked vote without any real reasoning should be scrutenized at all. The vote on Boonskiies is well past RVS and davesaz is experienced enough to know that PYBS was talking about how he changed his vote to Boon naked and without comment.

If you don't commont on why you vote for a scumbuddy, there's less there to indict you later. PYBS was later mislynched and davesaz had his vote on a useless vanity wagon. It's almost like he didn't want to be on the wagon for some reason.


172 Quite a damning post for davesaz, who, for all intents and purposes, did exactly what he said he didn't often see people do.


173 Oh hey look, a fluff post trying to be helpful and dodging the request to give thoughts about Rubicon or PYBS or a specific post by Grib (associatives with Grib starting to creep in a bit)


292 Around 12 hours go by, only for davesaz to make a noncomittal comment regarding Rubicon. It would be nice to know Rubicon is town, for sure, because that would make this a lot more damning than it already is. Doesn't adress Grib at all.


309 Fluff post about falling asleep after the incredibly taxing 14-16 word previous post (depending on whether you count contractions as a single word or the words they stand for). Still hasn't responded about Grib. Starting to see a pattern here.


310 A mess of a post with a bunch of random stuff added on to what seems like the actual point of the post, which is to shut down people from starting to see associations. We're nearly 10% into the game here, but it's too soon to take note of how people are associating? Really?

And Ricastle got night killed. Hrm...


326 PYBS makes the point that davesaz only posts sporadically and only to defend himself (which is quite cogent, as it appears to continue throughout the entire game). Gives his reasons for it and says that playing with unknown people inhibits him. Giving himself a reason for lurking through the game, perhaps?

He also buddies PYBS here ... it's almost like he knows PYBS is town ... and as noted earlier, davesaz is found on a vanity wagon for the PYBS mislynch.


455 Makes a short fluff post only tangentally referring to ongoing events in the game. Sets up the idea that Ricastle / Grib / Skold are somehow linked. Two of those people have flipped, and were town.


460 Claims that their interactions pop out and form a "triangle", in response to PYBS. Claims to have no opinion on alignment, but somehow expects it to be significant.


499 Another fluff post, with another "wink" emoticon.


513 Another "look how helpful and friendly I am" post.


515 Feigns ignorance in the face of being openly questioned about being lurking/inactive scum. Chides creative for being impatient with a gambit/play. Could be the first bit of pressure that led to Creative being night killed?


516 For no discernable reason, feels the need to explain that he didn't actually see the gambit Creative played until it was all over.


541 Can't make heads or tails of this post. It doesn't really seem to have a clear point or exist for any reason other than to have posted something. It doesn't fit in with the context around it ... at all.


551 Some White Knighting of Garmr's slot mixed in with a dash of placing doubt about Peacbringer, who ended up being a town PR. The thing that stands out to me here is that there's nothing for PB to really respond to. It's just davesaz implying there is some reason to question PB, but isn't at all explicit aobut it.


622 Making sure to note that he thinks that wagon built awfully fast before Garmr replaced out, but there he sits, awfully early onto the wagon. It's odd that he appears to White Knight in 551, but is on the wagon early. Contradiction. Narrative slip?


637 More scrutiny from Creative brushed off. Slips in a reference to age as an excuse for "forgetting" things. Appears to want to give himself room to alter his scum narrative by having an early established reason for it. He's old and forgetful so he has to note things that may or may not mean anything.


641 Do either of these comments actually do anything with the game state? It's like I'm reading a football color commentary guy or something. Bad theory in that first comment, fo sho.


649 Complains that the wrong part of his post was focused on. Since there is so little content from his slot to this point, I'm confused what he could possibly think was improper to be focused on. Looking at context I see ... Oh hey look it's PYBS making the point that even VTs should not prefer their own lynch.


650 Implicitly makes Skold responsible for a wagon.


652 The irony in this post is almost too much. I'm not going to explain it ... click the link and go look.


656 When Skold asks "Why me" in reference to 650, davesaz backs off from the implicit assignment of responsibility and claims to be running a gambit. As far as I can see, Davesaz doesn't actually interact with people's responses to his "play" here.


657 Quotes himself and says PYBS and Rubicon need to pass his "test". For someone who was so often questioning PYBS, it seems really weird that he was off on a vanity wagon when PYBS got mislynched.


665 Big theory post telling everyone how wrong they are. It's almost as if he knows, somehow, that this wagon is going to end up a mislynch. He's been making all sorts of posts that implicitly show he expects the slot to flip town, but doesn't come out and just say it. He's being so obtuse about it that KC actually votes him for it on the assumption that he's either protecting a scumbuddy or trying to get points when the wagon flips town.


682 Seems to abandon the "play" from earlier. Claims the replacements will screw up getting any real info from it.


691 I think this is the first post with some actual content. Unfortunately, davesaz claims that he is much smarter than the rest of us and often makes leaps that we can't follow, so he has to explain them in "painstaking detail". Don't see any prior post that could possibly be a reason for this. This is maybe the least subtle "I'm smart and you all are stupid" post I've seen in a long time.


697 Apparently feedback is only good if you answer the part of the post he actually wanted feedback on. But thanks anyway.


707 Because it's so terribly hard to look at page one, please do extra work mod. I also want to look like I'm being helpful to town, so asking the mod to do this extra work will totally make me look like I'm doing stuff, even if I'm not posting about it.


744 Well then. I'm glad you shared that with us.



749 Responding to Creative. Poor Creative seems to have pressured the wrong old guy. This is just playing right into the night kill big time. The "What don't you like about the truth?" line is great, since before this post davesaz hasn't really taken much of a stance on anything. It's all implicit at best. Davesaz seems to have gone out of his way to avoid saying anything explicitly.

Furthermore, he says that scum try to evade saying they don't have strong reads while town has nothing to lose by saying it ... but only because he's just said he doesn't have "a lot" of strong reads just a single sentence prior. He's never mentioned his reads, at all, prior to this post. He says he doesn't have "a lot" of strong reads (implicit is that he must have at least some, but they aren't shared), and then feels the need to defend himself as being townie and not scum.

All of this was not commentary that he made himself, but rather because Creative (who would soon be ruthlessly silenced) was pushing him.


756 Talks about his scum game, then uses another emoticon. (Very sporadic usage of emoticons, and always in the context of himself as scum ... interesting). Appears to realize that in the prior post he had screwed up by calling something townie that he hadn't actually done, and blames the poor memory he earlier referenced. Promises to get to a "spectrum" later, which he does two days later.


784 Directs replacements to look at the current wagon and then gives a statement that hedges heavily. Did I already point out that he was early onto and stayed on this mislynch wagon, while giving himself cover throughout, already? I think I did, yeah?


909 This list appears to just be made up out of whole cloth. It doesn't align with things he has said previously. He makes sure to give himself excuses though. This looks an awful lot like "going through the motions" to me. Look where the confirmed scum are on this list. This might be the most damning thing in the ISO really.


1219 Refers to a Ricastle post and says he had the same thought ... and then says scum would want to eliminate such a player. Where do we find davesaz? Early and super glued to the wagon.


1381 Subtle defense of Boonskiies, who was scum. Using a question to deflect suspicion. Instead of responding to both people in a single post, uses two different posts. Trying to imprint on people's memory as more active than he really is? Seems very odd to me.


1234 Fly by post putting out an interaction with Creative. Did he know he wanted to kill Creative already by this point?


1608 Suggests that Grib is scum because of "cherry picking" and claims to have looked back at the ISO and "remembered" why he had him as town. Apart from the thrown together reads list that has zero explanations for anyone except for the people he listed as most scummy, all he had said about Grib was that earlier "triangle" comment and that he thought it needed to be watched. Apparently he forgot he was trying to figure out what was going on with that "triangle"?

Interesting to note, as it just stood out to me right here; davesaz put all the known scum on the scum side of his list, which would be a statistical abberation for how he claims the list came about, but that's not the most interesting part. The most interesting part is that he has scum on the scummy side of his list but somehow only ends up pursuing the not scum in that part of his list.


1638 Man there are an awful lot of posts by dave about work and why he can't contribute. You'd think, given my own experience, that people would be on him like a fat kid on a twinkie. That whole "I'm old and have a bad memory" thing from early in the game must have really worked some magic for him.


1784 Pointless bad theory post. What if Ricastle's reads were right? He was right about the slot he was talking about. More confusing about this post is that davesaz is literally trying to be on both sides of the issue concerning whether this wagon is scummy. A very large portion of his entire ISO contains posts taking one side or the other.


1815 Notes the end of the day is creeping up and votes the wagon ... but his vote is 3rd on the final votecount, so had to scroll up and see that he voted for Skold for a hot minute but apparently not long enough to unseat him from being on the front row of the mislynch bandwagon.

At this point, more than half of his posts are gone, with several days to go. Was the decision to be more lurky strategic or will there be some reason (excuse?) to come ...?


1939 Tries to argue any associatives with Boonskiies should be disregarded, on rather shaky ground.


2300 We're back in only post to defend himself mode, with a nice "Poor me, scum are holding on to me for a mislynch ... hopefully you all aren't too stupid to realize." setup thrown in. This stinks of scum narrative worse than a week old corpse.


2530 Shows up after more than two days gone to make a very WiFoM arguument that activity isn't alignment indicitive. Fallaciously refers to a prior game where scum went after inactives and lost as a way to try and make himself look both townie and like a bad lynch option (events in one game with one group of people and role assignments have no causal impact on events of another game. What happened in a prior game is irrelevant to this one, and davesaz is smart enough to know that).

Brings up his being busy for work reason again and then makes a very cleverly worded statement. He says regarding low post counts, in his case, he doesn't lie about RL. Let's accept that as true, becuase he has not in the prior 2500 posts ever tied his activity and alignment together, so he can easily be scum and telling the truth about being busy.

He then says that he's stated several times that he has been busy, and only after having established that he doesn't lie about being busy does he say that his lack of posts should not be alignment indicative.

Please take note that he never explicitly ties his alignment to his activity, but he

does

set up an implicit "If you say I'm scum, the only reason you have is my inactivity, and that will mean you are calling me a liar IRL" situation.

Also apparently he thought Nero or Elusive were scum, but never went anywhere with it.


2620 Only joins the KC wagon when the slip is super obvious and it's time for Jerome to make an appearance.


3008 The most blantant gloating I've ever seen. It will take hours, if not

days

to decide whether tracking results are useful or not?


3086 Criticizes Elusive for referring to a prior game to try and make some point about the current, when her doing it actually makes sense and his was a gigantic fallacy. Hrm.


3253 I love double standards. No ... wait ... no I don't at all.


3388 What questionable pile? It has been thousands of posts since davesaz shared any actual reads. Lots of implying various people are scum or trying to discredit RIP's attempt to make a town block ... but no reads since more than 2000 posts prior.


3453 First mention of Ika since the "reads" thousands of posts earlier. He "doubt{s} the slot is town though." without any explanation whatsoever. Just a naked "I'm gonna go ahead and get on the Ika is scum side as unobtrusively as possible" moment.


3527 VT claim in response to Grib saying he 1-shot investigated and got an innocent. Not at all concerned about a claimed innocent because any number of scenarios could be in play with a scum davesaz, especially if his partner is Grib (note that there were some early associatives).

If a scum Grib gives an innocent on davesaz, who by the time this innoncent is given has for some reason been mostly given a pass for lurksacking through the game ... and then Grib gets lynched and flips scum ... most people conclude what about davesaz?

I'm sure any half competent player could list at least a half dozen scenarios where davesaz is as scummy as his ISO makes him look, even though Grib claimed a 1-shot cop innoncent on him.


3543 Oh hey look it's my slot getting voted, with a quick unvote a few posts later that looks showy. What does L-1 matter if he believes my slot is scum?


3682 Dismisses an investigative result that my slot didn't go anywhere and then proceeds to throw doubt on all claimed town roles


3923 Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Basically making the case that the result is fake and therefore the role claim is fake.


As a side note, Grib has been changing his story more often than OCD people was their hands. Just thought I'd point that out since it fits heavily with my theory of game at the moment.


4101 Getting the payoff from something set up thousands of posts earlier. Off on a vanity wagon and gets to criticize everyone on the PBYS wagon.


4111 Says the only people who he thinks are town are himself, Grib (posited scum parter) and Rubicon (buddying?).

Says RIP's x-shot doesn't fit, while at the same time relying on Grib's "x-shot" as his cover. Notes that if RIP is being honest, then Nero is lying (and thus probably scum?). This confuses me becuase that would seem to indicate that he believes there's a scum in those two ... why hasn't he followed this up at all?

Points out my slot could be scum, and be tracker cleared, and all of that would be because prior slot player flaked and didn't submit a kill. Out of all the various narratives he has been spinning, this seems to be the one he wants to go with.

First reads list in over 3,000 posts and it's highly suspect, and at least partially based upon contradictory information/assumptions.


4232 Again pressing the idea that the lack of a kill is a result of Taly flaking in my slot. At the same time he's pointing out that 2 scum are left, so the theory of 1 person flaking is why there was no kill seems to sink before it even gets a few feet into the water.


4234 Oh look, at naked vote. "Have been thinking this for quite a long time"... yeah, no shit. I think the first whiff of him trying to set up a future lynch on this slot is like over a thousand posts prior.




---------------------------------

So, for those of you wondering, that took around 2 and 1/2 hours ... to go through and evaluate a fairly lurksack slot, going into context for things where there was no clear explanation of what was posted.

[Drixx]

I think it's a pretty good bet, yeah. I know that's a LONG post with comments on over 100 different things, but scum can't hide from analysis of their content. There are some pretty obvious places where he is setting up later plays. That's the hallmark of a good story ... there's foreshadowing. For scum that means they're setting up possible plays and angles to go after later.

[Drixx]

There's a lot of scummy in Grib's ISO. I'm not sure I've got the energy to do an ISO commentary on him just at the moment. Grib and Davesaz make very good sense as a posited remaining scum team.

I'm much more interested in what you guys think of my evaluation of Davesaz. I was looking specifically for things that indicate that his posts are all part of a fictional narrative, and I think I found them.

Interestingly, I wasn't planning to do that with davesaz until he dropped the naked vote on me and it reminded me of a post he made just after I replaced in so I went ISO diving. I have some stuff to take care of, but I'd appreciate any thoughts pertaining to what I've already posted, and I'll respond when I get back.

[Drixx]

I addressed the fact that Grib claimed Dave was innocent. There are at least a half dozen fairly plausible scenarios where that makes sense, and Dave undercuts that clearing of him by casting doubt on x-shot abilities. He can't have it both ways.

When in doubt, read the player, and don't blindly follow claims that aren't verified.


P-Edit : I'm not sure where Godfather stands on the whole normal thing. I know that a lot of people don't like it. With as many claimed investigative roles as we have, it would make sense to have though. Game can be swung super hard against scum just by random chance, and godfather is something that can mitigate that swinginess.

[Drixx]

You don't know who I was or wasn't suspecting Dave, because I didn't ever give a reads list. Do you need some more rope to hang yourself with?

VOTE: Davesaz

A town davesaz would go through my analysis and explain himself. He is resorting to attacking me which doesn't make sense.

[Drixx]

I don't ever defend the play of a player who was on the slot before me, unless absolutely necessary.

I'm sure you can find things that don't make perfect sense in my post. That's what happens when you read through 100+ posts and context and try to evaluate them honestly. You don't have to agree but you seem to have just looked for reasons to dismiss it. Anything that you couldn't dismiss you didn't address at all.

As a basic axiom of mafia:

Town players tend to just say what they believe, from memory, and don't tend to check every little detail to make sure everything lines up.

Scum players have to fake being town, so everything they do is a narrative. As such, they are constantly checking the details to ensure they line up.


You basically just outed me as town by pointing out my case has flaws and contradictions. Thanks... I guess?

[Drixx]

You basically just outed me as town by pointing out my case has flaws and contradictions. Thanks... I guess?

what

If I were scum, don't you think I would have spent those hours putting together a more convincing narrative?

If you don't think I have it in me, go take a look at the SMITE game that recently ended.

[Drixx]

If you've figured out the game and it has me in the scum pile, go back to the drawing board.

By the way, what you described might better be referred to as "confirmation bias". Davesaz laid out a naked vote (despite criticizing them earlier ... a pattern I noticed when I read his ISO ... he's a very "Do as I say not as I do" figure in this game) and it felt scummy. So I went through his entire ISO looking to see if he was consistently scummy. Yep. Lots of stuff in there that I wouldn't expect to see in a town ISO. One could easily argue that I went looking for scum indicators and so confbias showed them to me.

I would like to think I'm a little better at thinking about what I read than that, but I guess we'll see how it plays out.

[Drixx]

Bull - Shite. Period.

[Drixx]

Directed at Davesaz trying to claim he was reaction testing me with the naked vote.

He was setting up a vote on my slot for a long time, ergo the "I've been thinking about this for awhile" comment he made (paraphrasing from memory, feel free to see exactly what he said) along with the vote.

[Drixx]

4282 seems logically sound. I'm going to see if I can think of anything that makes the premises fail. I think if your premises are true then your conclusions are rock solid.

4289 I don't like because you are dismissing Grib because you believe you can read him. That's a dangerous reason to clear someone.

[Drixx]

That doesn't change the purpose of making it naked.

You don't get to make a series of posts foreshadowing your intent to vote someone, then naked vote them and afterward claim it was a reaction test.

You laid the groundwork for the vote, and then you voted. It's a narrative. That narrative is what made me read your entire ISO and look for more narrative ... which I found.

How about that "triangle" you were talking about early in the game? What was the importance of that? Why did you abandon it? Did you realize that only one of those people is still alive? You seemed to think there was scum there, but you dropped that like a brick.

You now need to pass my muster and convince me to move on to evaluating someone else, because so far your response has been far short of convincing.

[Drixx]

Why are u guys voting me? I'm conf town.

If you were conftown, why would anyone vote for you? o.O

[Drixx]

Drixx, you should vote RIP.

Can I wait for him to answer my question first?

[Drixx]

I'm not big on sheeping. I will vote RIP but tomorrow I think we should have a more thorough discussion.

VOTE: RIP

[Drixx]

Grats on the win, those who earned it.