Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over
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nn30 Mafia Scum
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podoboq Mafia Scum
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eagerSnake - "Fwiw mod steals pagetops while driving. Still think they wouldn't put in 2 people with ascetic?"-
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boring Mafia Scum
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You'll have to forgive me if I don't take your word for it. Regardless, I can't be the only person he buddied.In post 2434, PenguinPower wrote:
In my experience with him. No, and No. He would need message-crafting level coaching to buddy someone; not just guidance to buddy.In post 2429, boring wrote:He's capable of following instructions, right? Do you think he thought up the doc gambit all by his lonesome?
This comment worries me. I know this is an argument being used by someone(s) to townread you. Your attempt to apply it to me feels ham-handed. It's as if you're trying to reinforce this perception of you, rather than determine my alignment.In post 2434, PenguinPower wrote:You're starting to get a little flippant in your posting, which I appreciate - if you were town.
Please elaborate.In post 2434, PenguinPower wrote:Grendel's latest post reinforces my read on you, btw.-
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boring Mafia Scum
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PenguinPower He/Him.pengHe/Him
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You actually seem to be, on his ISO read. At least, the only one I was able to discern. Please feel free to find another.In post 2452, boring wrote:You'll have to forgive me if I don't take your word for it. Regardless, I can't be the only person he buddied.
I'm me, and you're you. I've been flippant since my first post in this thread. You haven't been, so the change is noteworthy to me.In post 2452, boring wrote:This comment worries me. I know this is an argument being used by someone(s) to townread you. Your attempt to apply it to me feels ham-handed. It's as if you're trying to reinforce this perception of you, rather than determine my alignment.
Um...I think he's second scum and he town reads you. That furthers my read on you. How is that difficult to understand?In post 2452, boring wrote:Please elaborate.
Straws, boring. Grab at them.-
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nn30 Mafia Scum
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Nitpicking here.In post 2454, PenguinPower wrote:Um...I think he's second scum and he town reads you. That furthers my read on you. How is that difficult to understand?
Scum buddy, and scum bus.
Grendel having Boring as a town read is NAI until you figure out that 1) Grendel is actually scum and 2) how he behaves.-
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PenguinPower He/Him.pengHe/Him
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Um...no. I have a secondary scum read who townreads my primary scum when they are the leading wagon while throwing a vote on a random player. There's no "nitpicking" or "NAI" involved. It strengthens my primary read. Not going to make me hop on over to the secondary at this point, but it still has an effect.In post 2455, nn30 wrote:
Nitpicking here.In post 2454, PenguinPower wrote:Um...I think he's second scum and he town reads you. That furthers my read on you. How is that difficult to understand?
Scum buddy, and scum bus.
Grendel having Boring as a town read is NAI until you figure out that 1) Grendel is actually scum and 2) how he behaves.-
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boring Mafia Scum
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Still clumsy. First, I've not been flippant at all. Second, who is deliberately flippant the point that they would choose describe themselves as such?In post 2454, PenguinPower wrote:
I'm me, and you're you. I've been flippant since my first post in this thread. You haven't been, so the change is noteworthy to me.In post 2452, boring wrote:This comment worries me. I know this is an argument being used by someone(s) to townread you. Your attempt to apply it to me feels ham-handed. It's as if you're trying to reinforce this perception of you, rather than determine my alignment.
Um...I think he's second scum and he town reads you. That furthers my read on you. How is that difficult to understand?In post 2452, boring wrote:Please elaborate.
Straws, boring. Grab at them.[/quote] Not difficult to understand, I just wanted you to spell it out.
You are scum reading us both, and at least one other player is doing (Dier, I think) the same. Don't you think one of us would have simply pretended to buy into one of the not-so-spectacular theories running around as an excuse to distance?-
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boring Mafia Scum
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Grendel Mafia Scum
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If I’ve been bouncing around the middle of bottom you reads what was up with the times you scratched my chin? Like announcing whenever I made a high quality post? Do you just randomly hand out compliments to your scum reads?In post 2336, Prism wrote:
In past days I've said virtually nothing about your alignment, the only times I did were that I liked your RVS questions and that I liked one specific post Day 2. The only reason I've ever given to townread you is based off Maria's death. In contrast, I've also pointed out that certain posts of yours were bad, and some of them worse yet replying to me without actually reading the original post (which suggests you weren't interested in them to begin with). You've been basically in the middle to bottom half of the game, and I've made it explicit that I intend to vote you today if I can't get boring. If boring is town, you are almost certainly scum by PoE. If boring is scum, you are still a very likely candidate for the partner.In post 2319, Grendel wrote:I had this weird feeling creeping up on me yesterday that Prisum has been trying to pocket me this whole game.
But has made zero attempts at white knighting since I've come under fire. So I guess I was wrong?
You didn't even acknowledge repeated announcements for you as a potential alternative lynch, both today and yesterday. I'm not just not whiteknighting you, I'm straight up more on the offense. Between this and 2-3 other posts that appear unconcerned as to what I'm actually thinking, and boring pushing a PP lynch, you've definitely earned the second spot. I'll ISO you sometime tomorrow night.
Yea, I had you as town for a while, but wasn’t super interested in teaming up with you so I didn’t give your posts and cases priority over the others that I needed to sort, or was more interested in generally. Do you normally consider people that are clearly disinterested in you to be scummy?
I could see what you mean if I had you down as a strong scum read, but that isn't the case.
I’m pretty sure the only time I entirely forgot something you presented was when I was confused that you blindly followed Implosion’s meta argument, which you explained as a miscommunication. You are now mad that I had forgotten that first encounter, which I am explaining as a miscommunication on my part. Do you want an Asop, or is my point clear?
The thing about the boring case is that I feel like she has been in a lot of peoples scum lean for much of the game. In this position its more likely that scum would try to lurk out the pressure. From what I’ve seen boring has been pretty on top of things and actively contributing to the gamestate. The near constant pressure makes me think that town is just being paranoid, thus watching and dissecting boring more than any other player. Also, more than town paranoia there is the chance of mafia taking advantage of this at some point, and into today.In post 2435, nn30 wrote:
What do you think of the case on her though? Obviously you believe it to be incorrect - why though?In post 2433, Grendel wrote:2) I think that boring is town, but a lot of it is based off of gut, and notes I took yesterday. I don't think I can lynch her.
Things that could possibly point to scum boring look circumstantial, like scum reading her for her unvote to LUV. It seems like she had some doubts about the Doc claim but didn’t want to make a mistake and accidentally flip the town doctor. It was a pretty natural reaction that I don’t think was fake. I don’t wholly understand how LUV’s lack of a counter strike towards boring should paint boring as bussing scum since LUV would want to distance himself from boring, which I don’t really recall happening. I also don't see boring being the hard bussing type, and she was on the LUV wagon for extended periods of time all of D2, even with the existence of an appetizing Gamma wagon was happening on the side. She had multiple times she could of justified leaving the LUV wagon. The only time she unvoted LUV was when he fake claimed, but most people did at the time so...
I don’t agree with what Eager had as a case on boring. I don’t agree with his tone read on boring being happy with the D1 cc. Or his assurance that boring must be scum based off a lack of action on her wagon early into D1. I mainly believe this to be so because there were people who voiced suspicions, but didn’t scum read her enough to put any more votes down. I think if scum were jumping on boring’s wagon they’d do it when she was the focus of discussion. Lastly, the fact that Penguin is swayed by Eager’s argument now after a whole day goes by looks opportunistic. If he truly thought that Eager was on to something why did he why so long to point this out?
I still don’t think Maria night kill points towards boring!scum.
I did wonder when I first thought that shadow is scum if he was hard defending boring because he wouldn’t want another buddy bussed with him being a claimed role and all. But at the same time, if shadow sees that town!boring is today’s lynch he may be trying to put himself in a good light by town reading her.-
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Grendel Mafia Scum
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In post 2382, Dierfire wrote:@Grendel
If you hit the "PM" button at the lower left of a post, whether or not the thread is locked, it will generate a draft with post quoted (it will be a PM draft, but you can copy/paste that into a post in the correct thread, and I usually clean up the quote tag as well so that it looks good).In post 2372, Grendel wrote:lol idk how to properly quote from a locked thread.
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You make some interesting points about Shadow_step that I'll consider further. What do you think of the fact that boring was having doubt about Shadow_step (2290), and the posts from Lil Uzi Vert that I quoted in response (2292)?Spoiler:
I’ve always seen “I hope you know what to do when I flip town”, to be a meaningless statement that is Non-ai, and could easily be fake for distancing.
I think your second point could be faked on Shadow’s part, and I don’t find LUV especially confrontational there. If shadow were planning to run a cc gambit against Eager then I’m unsure why LUV would be poking at it. Since that would be what he was doing here. It doesn’t rule them out as a scum team though.
For your last point I’d say that LUV wouldn't take a stance that demonstrated that he was in a knowing position. Kind of why I feel like his push on Shadow later into the day was to distance himself from Shadow down the road. This point could technically justify the previous one now that I think about it.
I like that boring expressed some skepticism on Shadow because I feel the slot deserves some skepticism. If Shadow really is town I don't think that scum would be ballzy enough to bring up this point while Shadow is generally town read. If Shadow and boring were partners I don't think boring would call him out on it either. Thank you for pointing me to this because it has completely destroyed the possibility of boring being scum with Shadow.
I meant to ask this earlier, but do you know if our mod had knowledge of 1809?
I feel like most people are viewing this as a left felid theory, and I want something to reel them into the possibility that Shadow is scum. I am interested in any further considerations you have for me.
You said that your vote on me was PoE, have you found anything beyond that since?-
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Grendel Mafia Scum
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Okay, so Shadow is scum and scums were all on Eager’s wagon D1. In retrospect, that would explain LUV’s awkward hammer at EoD. It also explains MariaR’s death, made to prevent people narrowing down scum on Eager wagon. Shadow entered into D2 talking about how Eager was the proper lynch and all that jazz to dissuade scum hunting off of that wagon.In post 2406, Shadow_step wrote:The fact that nn30 was off the Eager wagon is more damning. Scum knew he was town and didn't want to be on his wagon. They wanted town to destroy themselves, look at LUV's wagon position. He was so reluctant to join the Eager wagon.
Scum projecting his guilt on me.In post 2438, Shadow_step wrote:
He isn't leading it, but I don't expect scum to buss today. With one scum down and 3-4 conf townies. Unless the lynch of the buddy is inevitable I don't expect scum to buss.In post 2437, Zoronos wrote:
Let's be frank, any scum lynch will have scum on the train bussing.In post 2436, Shadow_step wrote:on
The line *I* draw is "is my scum read the person leading the train". I know that's why I refused to hop on the LUV train yesterday.
Do you think Penguin is leading this train? (Let's be fair, I haven't been paying much attention the past 2 days, so I just don't know at this point.)
At this point it might be as easy as a grendel/boring scum team. Grendel is trying to lynch me because he doesn't want to buss boring.
Since you're scum with a claimed role you absolutely don't want to bus this game. Reflective with your intent to hammer LUV yesterday which led to an immediate fold back after the claim. Even your reaction looks super staged.
-mind=blown-
lol-
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Grendel Mafia Scum
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HmmmIn post 2388, implosion wrote:
The problem with this is that I just very simply don't think scum-shadow would think to randomly counterclaim the immediate ascetic claim, and he immediately breadcrumbed. You are right that his play is worthy of a bit more thought in light of the possibility that he's a scum ascetic but I do not think there's any chance that he's scum unless he counterclaimed because he thought it was what he'd do as a town ascetic. Which is possible. But I think the rest of his play is town-indicative still. It's worth some consideration at massclaim time.In post 2378, Grendel wrote:The thing is though that I have witnessed enough games to recognizing risky D1 scum gambits.
Well how do you feel about the huge drop in his activity going into D2?
Do you think scum Shadow isn't capable of planning something like that out?
Outside of D1 what did you find townie about his play?-
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Grendel Mafia Scum
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Shadow_step Mafia Scum
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You can't lynch conf town, your case makes me laugh.ShowThe shadows betray you, because they serve me.
"Chrim and Shadow_step town MVPs. There was a point at the game I was legitimately in fear." ~Zach
"I'm mightily impressed by Shadow's ability to find town PR's, by the way. He was the one directing the first two nightkills." ~Michel-
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Grendel Mafia Scum
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Shadow_step Mafia Scum
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I don't give a flying shit about convincing you of anything.
If you're town you're a moron if you're scum you are trying to lynch me because I pretty much am confirmed town.
Your stupid theory of there being an ascetic RB is pretty much BS. It doesn't matter what Zoro's read on me is. Its the correct play numerically to kill Zoro and keep blocking GE. That way there are no conf towns and my scum team can still push an angle of GE fakeclaoming cop, so implosion wouldn't be clear either.ShowThe shadows betray you, because they serve me.
"Chrim and Shadow_step town MVPs. There was a point at the game I was legitimately in fear." ~Zach
"I'm mightily impressed by Shadow's ability to find town PR's, by the way. He was the one directing the first two nightkills." ~Michel-
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Shadow_step Mafia Scum
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Now back to lynching ob scum nn30.ShowThe shadows betray you, because they serve me.
"Chrim and Shadow_step town MVPs. There was a point at the game I was legitimately in fear." ~Zach
"I'm mightily impressed by Shadow's ability to find town PR's, by the way. He was the one directing the first two nightkills." ~Michel-
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podoboq Mafia Scum
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implosion has been prodded.eagerSnake - "Fwiw mod steals pagetops while driving. Still think they wouldn't put in 2 people with ascetic?"-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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shadow continues to be the least helpful town i've literally ever seen... and i've played with katsuki before
Idk man. I don't really have much more to say. I guess the next thing I should do is justify why I still think nn is town. I'll do that tonight or tomorrow. But in terms of who I want to kill I cannot really see myself being convinced into anything other than boring at this point.-
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Shadow_step Mafia Scum
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BsIn post 2469, implosion wrote:shadow continues to be the least helpful town i've literally ever seen... and i've played with katsuki before
Idk man. I don't really have much more to say. I guess the next thing I should do is justify why I still think nn is town. I'll do that tonight or tomorrow. But in terms of who I want to kill I cannot really see myself being convinced into anything other than boring at this point.
What do you want me to do?ShowThe shadows betray you, because they serve me.
"Chrim and Shadow_step town MVPs. There was a point at the game I was legitimately in fear." ~Zach
"I'm mightily impressed by Shadow's ability to find town PR's, by the way. He was the one directing the first two nightkills." ~Michel-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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stop treating the game like it's your opinions in a vacuum that's all that matters?In post 2470, Shadow_step wrote:
BsIn post 2469, implosion wrote:shadow continues to be the least helpful town i've literally ever seen... and i've played with katsuki before
Idk man. I don't really have much more to say. I guess the next thing I should do is justify why I still think nn is town. I'll do that tonight or tomorrow. But in terms of who I want to kill I cannot really see myself being convinced into anything other than boring at this point.
What do you want me to do?
try to convince other people of your opinions if you feel like you have such a confident basis to be claiming them?
listen to others' arguments honestly and earnestly and take them into account in your calculus of peoples' alignments?
not uselessly call yourself conftown when you aren't?
stop calling everything you disagree with bs?
not needlessly insult others' intelligence for having divergent opinions?
justify your claims when you call someone obvscum who is clearly not obvscum in the eyes of the town, who are voting disparately?
show even a shred of humility and understanding that other people might be right and you might be wrong, and therefore that it is worth the time to actually discuss things to come to a conclusion?
I guess that mostly covers it for this page... i'm just fed up with your general attitude of unhelpfulness, refusal to listen and unwillingness to cooperate or compromise. And this might be a bit ranty but -shrug--
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Prism AnyDispersion of InsightAny
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Hey all,
I see a lot worth replying to but I can't really respond to them how I'd like right now. I will be free after 6 PM EST tomorrow so you can expect more there.
In the meantime, two things I should reply to sooner rather than later. First, people have asked me my impression of PP-he's a lot less town than he used to be because it seems to me that he was very intentionally overdoing the brash behavior. Meta changes and it's possible he's gotten more adept at faking his tone. The key thing to reread here is probably interactions with LUV, I'll review them along with the long-promised Grendel and Dierfire rereads tomorrow. Expect this read to change accordingly.
Second,In post 2464, Shadow_step wrote:You can't lynch conf town, your case makes me laugh.In post 2466, Shadow_step wrote:I don't give a flying shit about convincing you of anything.
If you're town you're a moron if you're scum you are trying to lynch me because I pretty much am confirmed town.
Your stupid theory of there being an ascetic RB is pretty much BS. It doesn't matter what Zoro's read on me is. Its the correct play numerically to kill Zoro and keep blocking GE. That way there are no conf towns and my scum team can still push an angle of GE fakeclaoming cop, so implosion wouldn't be clear either.
Sorry, can you remind me how you're confirmed town? I don't recall seeing that anywhere. By your own reasoning, there's no reason for any town to believe there's two town ascetics. Maybe we should follow you on that?In post 2467, Shadow_step wrote:Now back to lynching ob scum nn30.
I think you're town. I think nn30 is a lot more town than you. Even if me and Implosion are wildly wrong rather than you, and I really doubt that's the case, you haven't done shit to justify your attitude right now, and whatever you're doing isn't convincing anyone.
ISOing you and scanning your votes you've declared Eager definitely scum, Gamma his confirmed scumbuddy, Implosion the next scum, and you didn't even vote LUV. I'm not seeing where this high horse is coming from at any point. I haven't done much better but jesus.-
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Prism AnyDispersion of InsightAny
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Alright, nn's play today feeling town:
I think it's pretty much entirely encapsulated here. That post gives me two reasons to think nn is town:
-the indignance with which he describes his play as town. This is more of a gut thing, it isn't going to be rigorously justifiable. It does go beyond simply indignance; it feels to me like nn is genuinely trying to work with people to solve the game. His insistence that the people pushing him give cases, his rhetoric towards Zoronos, and so on.
-his throwing townreads out left and right. If he's scum then the way that he went into today is painting himself into a corner, immediately striking out both pp and boring as likely directions for him to push in going forward. Granted, he did flip on boring now, but in a reasonable way in response to new information which him as scum wouldn't have known would be guaranteed to happen. To generalize he is playing this day very off-the-cuff, throwing reads out and laying his opinions bare for everyone to investigate. Saying he doesn't want to vote Grendel because he's just a counterwagon, then giving real reasons to vote him 7 minutes later. And then saying he got more town pings from Grendel 40 minutes after that. He's responsive. He doesn't have a plan. His play just doesn't feel like scum who's trying to get a person in particular lynched, or avoid lynching anyone else in particular, or try to avoid being lynched himself; his play is just too much a combination of putting himself out there and not having a plan behind it to be scum, I think.
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