[Game Over] Newbie 1784 - Escape Room

[nancy]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I do not like this strat at all, I think it's a bad way to teach newbies to play and I refuse to claim either way.

VOTE: Pine

I'm scum this game Pine.

BAD NEWS FOR YOU

[nancy]

Also hello newbies I am one of your lovely SEs this game. I'm here to hopefully help Pine as the IC (he's an excellent IC so you're in for a treat) in teaching you all the ropes of mafia. It's my opinion that teaching should always take precedence over playing to my win-con in the newbie queue, so that will be my approach throughout the game. If you're ever struggling, please feel free to ask me directly for help on anything. Even if you're scum. Most important thing in any game as always, have fun!

[nancy]

Actually I just realized I'm not technically an SE lol. But yes, the above still applies!

I have read your explanations and I have seen the strategy in play and I think it's a bad way to teach newbies to play. I do not want this to be a topic of discussion when we should be focusing on RVS so please drop it.

[nancy]

How is it a bad way to teach newbies to play? It protects both the tracker and the BP and gives us knowledge of what our threat is and what we have to fight it. It stops scum from claiming OS BP when they're about to be lynched. If you have a really, really good explanation to why this is a bad strategy then go ahead please.

It puts the focus on the setup rather than the play. There is enough setup-spec on MS, we don't need to encourage that. Newbie queue should be about learning to play, not solving the setup to churn out a win as easily and quickly as possible. There's also a tendency for games to stall out when a newbie lands a BP role PM because the newbie BP just loses interest, and scum have less ability to fakeclaim, which is an important thing for newbie scum to learn how to do. The amount of times scum actually claim BP is so miniscule that this strategy is really not necessary to ward that off as if it's some threat.

[nancy]

How is it a bad way to teach newbies to play? It protects both the tracker and the BP and gives us knowledge of what our threat is and what we have to fight it. It stops scum from claiming OS BP when they're about to be lynched. If you have a really, really good explanation to why this is a bad strategy then go ahead please.

It puts the focus on the setup rather than the play. There is enough setup-spec on MS, we don't need to encourage that. Newbie queue should be about learning to play, not solving the setup to churn out a win as easily and quickly as possible. There's also a tendency for games to stall out when a newbie lands a BP role PM because the newbie BP just loses interest, and scum have less ability to fakeclaim, which is an important thing for newbie scum to learn how to do. The amount of times scum actually claim BP is so miniscule that this strategy is really not necessary to ward that off as if it's some threat.

Edit.

[nancy]

Not to mention it just fucks up RVS.

[nancy]

I'm scum this game Pine.

Confirmed scum
VOTE: Nancy

OMGUS

VOTE: WhyMafia

[nancy]

Yep, OMGUS = Oh My God You Suck.

It's basically voting someone simply because they voted you. You can also for instance OMGUS scumread someone, which is scumreading someone simply because they scumread you. So I OMGUS voted you.

[nancy]

Feels bad, don't it?

[nancy]

Pfft, you're not stupid.

You should trust me because I'm Town, obviously.

And even if I'm scum, I promise I'll pocket you and keep you alive until LyLo.

Win win.

[nancy]

Even if I were, I assure you I'd be doing it with your best interests at heart. I already claimed scum, so when we get to LyLo together you have no reason not to lynch me. (:

[nancy]

If you're doing it in my best interests, why don't we just lynch you today

Rude.

[nancy]

I figured.

[nancy]

VOTE: Screenplay

What is this, RQS!?!?!?!

[nancy]

How is that question relevant to this game?

RQS is "Random Questioning Stage", where you ask players a bunch of meaningless questions, it used to be the thing before it was replaced by RVS because RQS was found to inherently favor scum.

[nancy]

@nancy how does claiming BP or not BP f up RVS?

Look at this thread for evidence. RVS has been stilted by the philosophical differences in your insistence that people claim and my refusal to claim. Discussing theory at this point is not at all conducive to scumhunting, which is what we should be doing and which is what RVS is designed to facilitate.

[nancy]

Hi Pine

[nancy]

Pine are you scums?

[nancy]

Oh you're sooooooooo innocent aaaaaren't you!!!!

VOTE: Pine

Dieee!!!!

(Also yes I am let's bus each other for that sweet cred.)

[nancy]

Omg yum.

And yes Senpine I am also unequivocally anti-bus.

[nancy]

But I would always make a special exception for you <3

[nancy]

Oh no!! That's.. my second newbie game! *hides*

That game is actually where Pine taught me not to tunnel. Very quality lesson that I suggest everyone heed.

[nancy]

I do not like this strat at all, I think it's a bad way to teach newbies to play and I refuse to claim either way.

Refusing to claim even though it's a pro-town strat?

Yes. Have you been reading my posts? What do you think about my refusal? Does it mean that I'm scum? You should probably go ahead and lynch me, if so.

[nancy]

Well nancy just thinks it messes up RVS.

That isn't all that I've said. If you think this, you haven't been digesting my content.

[nancy]

How are they eager to steer town to victory?

Well about 80% of TesXX' posts till now relate to the BP-claiming-strat and it's usefulness for town.

Do you think that makes TesXX towny? If so, why?

She still wants to boycott a town-winning strategy. Even though I agree with her that the strat is more frightening than helpful in a newbie-game, I'd still say there's a higher probability she's scum.

I don't think the strat is frightening in the least. I think it's not a good way to introduce newbies to mafia.

Why did you claim even though you agreed with me, and why did you vote me? You're at L-2, btw.

[nancy]

We're clearly out of RVS but I don't feel comfortable putting Noodle at L-1 at this stage in the game so I'm going to vote for the inactive slot.

VOTE: bjc

bjc, please do things okay?

pedit supposed probability?

[nancy]

Not at all, I just find it more likely. He supports the use of a pro-town strat, while you don't. Simple as pie.

Do you not think that scum can argue in favor of pro-town strats in order to seem to be Town? Do you think that scum are more likely to go along with whatever Town says in order to blend in? Do you think that scum would be likely to argue against a pro-town strat if it put them in the spotlight and got them a lot of negative attention?

Even though I agree with you, I have no reason to not claim not BP.

If you agree that the strat should not be used, you have every reason not to go along with it.

[nancy]

@nancy I agree that this strat is not the best way to introduce newbies to the game, but I'm not the IC (and neither are you). Your wincon should take precedence over your desire to teach newbs. I get opposing the BP claim strat if the claims hadn't started yet, but with 6/9 already claiming it only helps scum to have incomplete claims.

Also, this would not detract from RVS if you would have followed instructions and claimed in your first post.

@srceen-- you too

I refuse to vote anywhere else but non-claimers until this is resolved.

VOTE: nancy

I have already stated that I believe teaching takes precedence over win-con. I will not pander to groupthink. I do not "follow instructions". We can move as soon as you're willing to do anything useful, like hunting scum. It's only distracting because you've made such a hoo-ha about it. I disagree with this strategy on principle.

[nancy]

As a matter of fact, Loopdan, an IC in another newbie game has already made all the arguments that I have.

[nancy]

As a matter of fact, Loopdan, an IC in another newbie game has already made all the arguments that I have.

If you are talking about rb he was scum and we lynched him day1 for this.

And he was acting anti-wincon in order to make the point. If he were playing to his wincon as scum he would've just gone along with it. Which solidifies what I am trying to say. The pro-town benefit to this strategy is marginal at best and our own IC in this game has stated that it is not irrefutably pro-town. The emphasis on setup spec rather than scumhunting and the cost of getting into these exact situations, where we are squabbling over setup spec rather than scumhunting, is precisely why this strat sucks.

[nancy]

It puts the focus on the setup rather than the play. There is enough setup-spec on MS, we don't need to encourage that. Newbie queue should be about learning to play, not solving the setup to churn out a win as easily and quickly as possible. There's also a tendency for games to stall out when a newbie lands a BP role PM because the newbie BP just loses interest, and scum have less ability to fakeclaim, which is an important thing for newbie scum to learn how to do. The amount of times scum actually claim BP is so miniscule that this strategy is really not necessary to ward that off as if it's some threat.

I take it that this summarises all your concerns with claiming BP?

More or less.

[nancy]

If Senpine tells me to claim, I will claim. Otherwise no.

[nancy]

VOTE: Tes

[nancy]

I don't want a BP claim or a Doc/Tracker claim on the board before Day 1 has even begun. It kills the game. It's not fun or interesting. It's simply churning mechanics and not what mafia is about, not how newbies should be learning to play. Tes has gotten away with being read as Town while producing 0 content whatsoever simply by pushing this strat and that is a perfect example of how crap it is.

[nancy]

The emphasis on setup spec rather than scumhunting and the cost of getting into these exact situations, where we are squabbling over setup spec rather than scumhunting, is precisely why this strat sucks.

Only if there is a refusal to claim.

Wouldn't be a refusal if the strat weren't pushed

[nancy]

Whatever. It's obvious I'm VT anyway from this whole stupid thing.

Why is Tes not scum?

[nancy]

[quote="In post 140The reason all my content has been about the strategy is because you haven't claimed yet and I want to start finding who gets rope.[/quote]
Nah, I think you're hiding behind this stuff in lieu of actual scumhunting as an excuse to seem to be doing something without actually doing anything.

[nancy]

The reason all my content has been about the strategy is because you haven't claimed yet and I want to start finding who gets rope.

Nah, I think you're hiding behind this stuff in lieu of actual scumhunting as an excuse to seem to be doing something without actually doing anything.

Edit.

[nancy]

Cool, I caught scum on page 6. 146 is what a guilty conscience looks like, btw.

[nancy]

Explain why you think I give a shit about your pedantry.

[nancy]

It was already obvious anyway so what do you want from me? Cool I made shit tier plays are you happy? This whole BP/not-BP strat is garbage and look, the game is stalled as a result. Congrats.

[nancy]

Cool, I caught scum on page 6. 146 is what a guilty conscience looks like, btw.

No, I made 146 because 142 didn't make sense.
Thanks for answering my question by the way.

I assume you're being ironic? I believe I've answered the question in previous posts, but your post also answers the question. (Think about why for a minute if you're not sure how that is.) But to elaborate on how I caught you, the post betrays your guilty conscience. The question doesn't come from a Town mindset as I understand it and doesn't lead anywhere except back unto itself. The way that you phrased it combined with the way that it comes out of nowhere (I didn't even explicitly call you scum, for instance) tell me that you have an active sense of guilt (which only scum can have) and were trying overly hard to pose the question in the way that a townie might pose it. The end result just comes off stilted and awkward.

[nancy]

Red sauce is simmering. I take store-bought jars of sauce and add ingredients to them until the flavor is entirely changed. This time, I added sauteed onion, garlic, thyme, hand-crushed rosemary, oregano, and Parmesan cheese to it, among other things I'm likely forgetting. I don't have an open bottle of red wine (I'm a riesling fellow) so I'm giving that a pass tonight.

I just had a tomato-base pasta sauce with diced garden vegetables, sundried tomato and baby spinach, topped with Parmesan. Uh-mazing. I don't drink though, hehe. I was always a chardonnay dyke, when I did. If you like Riesling try the Waipara West (NZ), if you find a seller that imports. Thank me later.

[nancy]

This person has been staring at that noose for hours, not uttering a single word.

UNVOTE: nancy
VOTE: bjc0303

Ew

Care to elaborate on the ew?

[nancy]

If you're at the stage in the game where you don't have anyone you're scumreading heavily or don't have any wagons you want to actively push at that time, it's generally a fine idea to push on people who are absent or lurking in an effort to get them to contribute to the game. With that in mind, do you have any problems with the post? What did you dislike about my vote on bjc?

[nancy]

If you're at the stage in the game where you don't have anyone you're scumreading heavily or don't have any wagons you want to actively push at that time, it's generally a fine idea to push on people who are absent or lurking in an effort to get them to contribute to the game. With that in mind, do you have any problems with the post? What did you dislike about my vote on bjc?

My point still stands. Why push someone who hasn't even posted in this game yet when there are so many others to interact with? You don't even have to push a wagon, but interactions with anyone else would generate some sort of contact or reaction.

Engaging with someone who hasn't even made an entry seems counter productive. There is nothing to gain, you can't even ask him a question when you don't know any of his stances. Any vote or wagon on him just seems empty and baseless.

And I disliked your bjc for the exact same reasons.

It's productive for the very reason that the intent (and it's up to you to parse whether or not the vote was truly made with this intent or was just an easy vote) is to bring that person into the game. You can interact with people in thread without voting them, but you can't interact with someone who isn't in the thread at all. It's kind of an on-principle thing. If it's only one vote it won't be particularly effective, but it's the principle of "get in here and help us catch scum or you die" that matters, and if a wagon forms and that slot is in fact lurking rather than absent, they are forced to engage in the thread where they otherwise could've continued to lurk. Does that make sense?

[nancy]

So if I'm scum, make a post with how a town player would answer it.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you're asking of me. What is the connection between you being scum and how a Town slot would answer? Answer what? Could you try rephrasing maybe?

Does a wagon really force them to come into this thread? If he's been avoiding this game, sure.

He hasn't come online since this game started. It's a lazy push. I understand the rationale behind voting a lurker to encourage content, but surely you can see this vote will not accomplish that.

Well, what I've trying to push you towards looking at not strictly whether the you like the vote, but whether you like the

post

. I got hints of you reading into that in 159, but I wanted to see whether you just thought that voting lurkers on policy was bad or whether you were reading into Noodle's motivation and finding it lacking.

It looks like you have done this somewhat after all, which is great. But I'd also encourage you to question Noodle on it rather than just come to the conclusion that it's a bad post. Noodle may very well not have realized that bjc hadn't come online since the game started (I certainly didn't), for instance, or may just not have thought it through very well, or may have been following a thought process that hadn't occurred to you, or something else entirely. The only way to know for sure (granted, he could always be scum and lie, so you can't

really

know for sure) is to question him.

Start a dialogue, create content. You think his push is lazy, but what does that mean about his alignment? Both Town and scum can be lazy, and both Town and scum can make good or bad posts. So what you really have to figure out here is how Noodle's post indicates one alignment or the other.

[nancy]

What's the difference between the vote and the post?

The vote as I referenced it is the policy of voting to demand activity. The post is the content (including the vote) created in the context of the gamestate.

But idk I'm bad at mafia

Gotta start somewhere! I don't think you're bad at all. Try not to think about your performance too much and just relax! Have fun!

So, do you agree that he might very well be lurking then? And do you deny that lurking is a pro-scum strat?

Lurking is most certainly not an explicitly pro-scum strat. As with everything, you have to look at context to parse whether or not the lurking is scum- or Town-motivated. Lurking is not a good playstyle at all imo, but it's generally just considered anti-town. Look at the "why". Why is a slot lurking? Is it lurking off pressure? Is it lurking because it has nothing to contribute? Is it lurking because the gamestate benefits it? Find the motivation and you find the alignment.

VOTE: Whymafia

Why this naked vote?

So if I'm scum, make a post with how a town player would answer it.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you're asking of me. What is the connection between you being scum and how a Town slot would answer? Answer what? Could you try rephrasing maybe?

I meant to say

ask

, not

answer

. My bad.

I still don't follow, unfortunately. Let's go back to 146. What were you trying achieve there?

Note - idk what a standard reads list looks like on ms. I'm sorry of it's horrible, I'm a tad overwhelmed rn

Spoiler: Rant on readslists

A readslist can look like anything you want it to. Most players have a particular preference for one way of listing reads and there's no "correct" way to go about it. The only important thing is that you convey the information you want to convey in a clear and easily understandable way. Formatting is important. You generally want people to

want

to read your posts, unless you're going for a particular style of scum play involving blending in and being forgettable. There's a pretty commonly used style of listing reads by name that was popularized by a player called Ranger, where you place each slot in tiered brackets to signify your read on them, and it's useful and compact, but my preferred way is to make a list of each slot in the game and order it accordingly. I prefer this way because it's more precise and offers more nuance than bracketed tiers. See below.

Pine
Screenplay
WhyMafia
Chronicle
Loopdan
bjc (this slot is null, anything at this line or below I would be happy with lynching)
Noodle
Tes

The same reads in a Ranger-style readslist:
{Pine, Screenplay, WhyMafia}
{Chronicle, Loopdan}
{bjc}
{Noodle}
{Tes}

Day 1 play for Town is all about developing your reads and sorting players. Early on in Day 1 you're rarely going to have any reads outside the middle tiers. By the end of the day you'll probably have a scumread that you strongly feel you want to wagon. You reassess and consolidate those reads in Day 2, especially your TRs, in the effort to go into the lategame as a cohesive Town. I probably shouldn't be doing this much teachery talk though, so I'll leave it at that.

Anything I can do to help you be less overwhelmed, or is it a RL thing?

[nancy]

I was trying to figure out why you thought what you did in 142. By knowing what you think a town mindset does in my slot, it gives me more info on your FoS.

I think I understand you? Wrt 146 specifically, it really depends on personality, but the generic townie response I'd be looking for there would be course-correction, provided you felt my point was fair. If you didn't think my point was fair, a healthy response would be to flesh out why and try and dialogue with me to resolve it. If you did think my point was fair, a healthy response would be to respond by incorporating the criticisms and move forwards (start pushing the gamestate). Instead, you asked me a vague question with no real trajectory. The answer to what you should've been doing all game so far, rather than emptily pushing the BP claim strat, would be scumhunting, as I've said before. But that would require you being Town, since scum can't actually scumhunt (they can only pretend to).

[nancy]

#3 Can everyone stop with the wall post of quotes. Pain in the ass for mobile guys like me. Especially when it's time to quote things.

Sorry!

[nancy]

Thanks for the reads list advice Nancy. Much appreciated
It's just a combination of irl stuff + the fact that all of you seem to know what you're doing xd. I am able to understand what's going on, but I'm just not really used to this. If that makes any sense. Like I've learned a lot from just a couple of days so far, and it's just a lot to process.

You're welcome. Don't worry, I promise that this is a case of everyone else seeming to know what they are doing without really having any clue. You can't see into the doubts and confusion in other people's minds, but it's always there. That said, I definitely have a better idea of what's going on that you! So if you need help processing anything, let me know!

Why are you so sure pine is town? He made only a few posts and they were simply to defend you. I'm just interested in hearing your reasoning

Pine and I are friends, and I like to think I can get a pretty good read on him early on. Combination of gut and recognizing patterns.

[nancy]

B) what does "your poor me I'm bad AtE is scummy mean

AtE = Appeal to Emotions.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... reviations

Feel free to use the above link as a reference if you encounter an abbreviation you don't know. If you haven't already read the wiki pages Pine linked to in his IC post, I'd highly recommend that, when you feel you can process it.

[nancy]

Spoiler:

I'll look into that messy Tes interaction you two are having later/tmr.

Okay there wasn't much to read.

Actually I don't get your stronger townreads. Is Pine a meta read? Why is WhyMafia town at all?

Largely meta, yes. WhyMafia responded in a way that I liked at a few different points.

She repeatedly appeals to my emotions, making me want to trust her.

That was all in jest!

If nancy's scum, she could simply be lying about casting aside win-con for teaching, merely using it as a coverup. She wouldn't be breaking any rules either(being a self-proclaimed SE, I suppose she'd do her best to respect the rules).

I'm an SE in the newbie queue, just forgot that I wasn't in an SE slot this game. I corrected it immediately.

@nancy-- Have you received any private communication from our mod about you not playing to your win condition?

I am playing to my win-con. Get over your rhetoric on this and start playing the game.

[nancy]

I'm an SE in the newbie queue, just forgot that I wasn't in an SE slot this game. I corrected it immediately.

Thanks for enlightening me on this. What made you realize that you weren't an SE in under six minutes?

VOTE: nancy

I read the playerlist. Come at me bro.

VOTE: Noodle

[nancy]

Tes and noodle are screaming town to me.

You scum Loop?

[nancy]

I'm actually reading you as Town and the theory you're pushing here is pretty blatantly dumb and in ingorance of how partner interactions even work. If you want to scumread Pine for chainsawing you're more than welcome to but you're silly if you're conf!biasing on that so hard to manufacture a townread on an objectively obvscum slot just because it agrees with your misguided ideas about win-con. The mod hasn't intervened. Guess what that means? I'm not breaking any rules. I'm just pushing a philosophy. You don't like teaching and want gear up the game to churn out wins for newbies, go for it. I'd rather focus on teaching and if I have the chance to royally fuck over a newbie like I do right now with Noodle I'm not going to because it won't be fun for him or anyone else. I'm not going to play hard because I care about teaching. This is the newbie queue. Keep the tryhard for the normal queue.

[nancy]

The one I am voting. This isn't about the role of SEs. I'm not an SE. You treating this as if it's some objective truth is the whole issue here. Instead of letting it drop as a difference in philosophy you've continued to push the fuck out of this all game long as though I'm not playing to win. It's nauseating by now, for the love of god.

[nancy]

I'd like to see you try!

Stop pitying me, and give me your best shot. If I'm obvscum it shouldn't be hard at all. We all got into the game prepared to be lynched at first day. I won't be bitter, and I doubt the others will be either. Being an semi-experienced player, you know this - and tbh you're just making yourself more suspicious.

I'm not pitying you at all, ftr, I just want to let other people have their shots and don't want to dominate discussion. I've been too much at the center of the gamestate as it is and I'd prefer to let you guys interact with each other more. I've responded in a somewhat joking way ("come at me bro") to hopefully encourage others to pick at the situation. Basically the issue with your case on me though is that you're conflating a lot of non-scum-indicative things and trying to make a case for me being scum out of them.

[nancy]

And with her stances on pine and noodle(disagree with both of them) as well as her recent reaction, it kinda reads as scum getting defensive.

I don't get defensive as scum but which parts read as scum getting defensive?

[nancy]

an

objectively obvscum slot

Then you should've claimed Investigates-in-pregame Cop.

I'm VT

This kind of post is why I'm scumreading you, Tes. You haven't been involving in pushing the gamestate forwards at all, you haven't been scumhunting. You need to get involved in more than a superficial way and try and pick at people's arguments and find motivation behind what people are doing. Even if you're scum, you should be trying to practice those skills and not hide by cutesy posts like the above.

[nancy]

I have been. I've talked about your reasoning multiple times and I've asked you a question about your Pine TR. I'm wondering why you think Noodle is objectively obvscum. I'm also going to make a post about Srceenplay. It's a stretch to say I haven't been pushing the gamestate forwards at all. I haven't developed as many reads as some people because, it's not always this way but I generally don't develop reads early.

Pushing the gamestate is a little different and, broadly speaking, involves developing your reads while helping others develop their reads and pushing wagons accordingly. Asking questions alone isn't pushing the gamestate because the trajectory of the interaction doesn't lead to the gamestate moving forward, it only leads to a response. Something has to be done with the response, and the question itself also has to be useful (chiefly for sorting alignment). Asking me about my Pine TR, for instance, hasn't led anywhere, therefore hasn't pushed the gamestate. Slight difference in the way that I pushed you earlier for instance, because by arguing that you were scum I created content for the game to orient itself around and by doing so pushed the gamestate forward.

Are you saying you don't get defensive as scum and then ask curiously how he can see you being defensive?
Just want to make sure I'm reading it right.

Yes and no, I'm curious as to what he thinks defensive scum looks like.

[nancy]

If you had to day kill someone right now, who would it be?
If you had a doctor protection, who would you protect (and you can't self heal)

What's the purpose of this question?

[nancy]

I haven't seen much reasoning, but if he's using that post as an indicator I can assume a few things about what he's looking at, which seem healthy. I don't agree at all with the characterization, skilled scum players can and do make genuinely pro-town posts, but the Town motivation in my stance far outweighs the scum motivation, so the only real approach for me here as scum would be to lead town through pro-town play (which would at some point down the track be twisted in pro-scum play without Town realizing). Tes and Noodle's interactions with the claim and win-con situation are an example of what a scum motivated approach looks like, on the other hand. That is, by encouraging the theory talk and non-scumhunting-oriented discussion, scum are able to blend in and get away with things far easier while hindering the gamestate from progressing in a pro-town direction. Doesn't make Tes or Noodle scum per se, but there's very little Town motivation in their play.

[nancy]

@nancy-- So was there a difference between how Tes and Noodle dealt with the claiming strategy and the way I dealt with it? Because we all pushed hard that it be done.

Yes. It isn't pushing it that's pro-scum, it's orienting your activity around pushing it. You haven't posted much at all, but they both have, and I've sensed more nuance in your stances than in theirs. As frustrating as you've been on this, you haven't been one-dimensional.

I'm aware, and it's worrying. You're more active than others here, and I've read that scum in general tend to be more quiet.
Still you've dodged our questions several times, so I'll ask again:

How did you come to the conclusion I'm obvious scum?

What made you say that your VT-role was obvious, so early in the game?

I don't think it's true that scum are more quiet in general. Activity is fundamentally NAI. I wasn't aware that I'd dodged your question, I came to conclusion that you're scum by the way you've handled your pushes. You attack other players in a way that shows little interest in sorting them or casting light on their content and significant interest in demeaning them and pushing your agenda (that they're scum). The difference between the former and the latter is that the former expresses the desire to communicate (with either them or others) and the latter expresses the desire to kill.

Essentially it was obvious (although in retrospect, only to the more experienced players) because of the way I'd fought the claim situation. If I were a PR, I would never have put myself into the spotlight in that way. Placing myself squarely at the center of the gamestate without caring for the consequences is really only something a VT ever does, because a VT has little to lose whereas a PR has to play carefully to avoid being run up and forced to claim.

[nancy]

Same goes for nancy, you never told me which posts felt town to you.

Some of his early postings seemed like clueless newbie Town to me, basically. I haven't liked his content since then, though, and unlike Pine I think the questions about who you're going to kill / doc to be really sketchy.

[nancy]

^ Basically because if you think of that question from a scum!WM perspective, it maximizes info on where he might direct a NK. If we have a scumteam of 2 newbies, as it's looking like, then this kind of information is something scum!WM might be trying to gather in a kind of cutesey way.

[nancy]

They might be taking a weird angle, who knows. I haven't seen any other significant attempts at scumhunting so far, so hopefully we see more from the slot so we can better judge their motives.

[nancy]

Curious. What about nancy is scummy?

I explained some in 227, and while she did make a case against Noodle in 385 but I don't think it's enough evidence to say "objectively obvscum".

What do you think is scum indicative about being emphatic on your stances? If it's because you think I'm wrong, what do you think is scum indicative about having wrong reads?

[nancy]

And with her stances on pine and noodle(disagree with both of them) as well as her recent reaction, it kinda reads as scum getting defensive.

I don't get defensive as scum but which parts read as scum getting defensive?

Defensive isn't a very good word to represent what I see it as in retrospect

Jumpy?

Missed this post. What do you think is scum indicative about being jumpy? Describe what scum being jumpy looks like to you, and why Town can't be jumpy? I don't agree with your characterization, btw, but I'm curious about what you're seeing in my posts.

[nancy]

Let me just assume you're Town here for a moment (your scum game should be mimicking your Town game anyway, so this advice would apply regardless of alignment). It's great that you've identified something you don't like, but you're not yet getting to the heart of the issue. How does X make someone scum? Why can X not occur when that person is Town? I've been saying this a lot this game, because it's very important when scumhunting to go beyond surface level and look for motivation. If you don't do this, you're just begging to be pocketed in every game you play. When you're reasoning through your reads, you have to go deeper than just like or dislike and try to put yourself in the perspective of whomever you're trying to read, then try to discern whether or not their behavior indicates one alignment over the other. Gut reactions like "I don't like this" are good, but they need to be explored and fleshed out. Following your feelings blindly will almost always lead you astray.

[nancy]

Maybe it's just more of something that bothers me than something I should actually be scumreading people for.

I'm not even necessarily saying you

shouldn't

think it's scum indicative, I'm saying you should really dig in and explore it to figure out whether it is or not. Talk about it more if you need to, to get a better feel on it. That's what I'm trying to get out of you.

[nancy]

I don't remember if this was ever responded to but it's what bugged me. Bragging about being able to take someone down but not doing it.

I get that. And I can go back and make the post if you want, but I already kind of made the main point to him anyway, so it would only really be extrapolation on that.

5. On the other hand 316 looks like fake frustration

That was actually me at my sincerest. Re Pine, I'll talk about him some more at a later point, but I'd rather give the newbies time to engage with him / his content more and let him establish himself in thread first. Don't want to color people's perception of him any more than I already have.

[nancy]

Pine and nancy, obviously

^_^

[nancy]

Am still on V/LA, but will be back with a vengeance soon. Looking forward to finishing this game out with my Senpine.

[nancy]

No I have faith that he'll wake up and post before that happens!
He was too busy yesterday and he's just asleep right now.

[nancy]

Back from V/LA. Sorry I'm still pretty worn out (the reason I went on V/LA) so my contributions won't be up to where I'd like them to be but I'm around again. Just ftr this will likely be last solo game on MS, at least for a long time. Kind of fitting for Pine to be here for it, since he was IC in my newbie game when I first came to site.

I am honesty confused at this point
Nobody was talking so I made a joke
Hammer me
When my flip is revealed, I think it will be pretty obvious who is scum

This is a really terrible attitude if you're Town WM and doesn't help anybody. If you're scum then sure, play the apathy card and pretend not to care about getting lynched. It's transparently poor play by either alignment and if you actually cared about finding scum you wouldn't be asking to be lynched while sitting back doing nothing, you'd be hunting on your wagon. Please eradicate this from your playbook.

In case you're wondering, the "go ahead and lynch me" gambit probably doesn't work as well as you think it does.

Oh! I'm being perfectly honest. Lynching me gives info does it not? After all, what kind of scum would defend a bad member of town?

No. Just no. Info lynches are NEVER good. Info lynches are the plague. Do. Not. Ever. Lynch. For. Info. It is comprehensively BAD play and should be vehemently opposed by anyone with Town's best interests at heart. Town lynches scum. Period end of story. "Less expensive" lynches are also a big fat no. You should be focused on lynching scum, not lynching someone for information or because they rolled VT.

[nancy]

Looks like the nancy wagon has dissipated.

I'm concerned that there's only one real wagon, thats usually a pointer that mafia aren't on the chopping block.

This is a kinda true, but not at all a good reason to dislike a wagon. Consensus wagons can and do happen on scum and you need to look at the bigger picture to really decide whether or not you like the current state of wagons or not. Take the WM wagon for instance. WM let off a bunch of anti-town AtE when getting wagoned and there are a few vanity wagons, with you and src both resisting it and now src pushing off it. You can never get a good picture just by seeing only one large wagon and deciding that therefore scum are happy with the situation, i.e., it's a mislynch, you have to look at thread activity and how people are treating the wagon and interacting with other slots while the wagon is happening. If WM were to flip scum, there would be some clear partner interactions to be taken note of here in finding their scumpartner.

[nancy]

Oh
Well
Erm
This places me in a conomdrum. When you have time, can you place your opinion on me, chronicle, and screen?
Thanks for the tips though guys xd

I think that your push on Chronicle is gross and it makes me want to vote you but I do at least get the feeling that you believe in it, which is good. I think src joining your wagon when he's scumreading you is even more gross. I think Chronicle is the towniest slot in this game and I have no idea why it's getting wagoned but I'm also not at all going to try to stop it. The only way I can see Chronicle being scum is with Pine, which isn't something I'm going to start conf!biasing on Day 1.

[nancy]

This places me in a conomdrum.

What conundrum are you referring to?


@src talk to me about 595 please. Why do you not care about being on a wagon with WM? Why are you wagoning Chronicle? You appear to be scumreading both WM and Chronicle, yet abandon the larger WM wagon to join WM in forming a new Chronicle wagon. Why? What are your reads?

VOTE: srceenplay

[nancy]

The only way I can see Chronicle being scum is with Pine

Why?

Also still waiting on your explanation of your pine TR.

Because I'm TRing Chronicle and yet there are some pretty convincing associatives. As for Pine, I already explained my TR there as it stood before. As it turns out, I'm /still/ TRing Pine, because if you don't Townread the slot that produces 387 I don't know what to say to you. May I ask why you're pressing me for explanation when I have produced something like ten times as much content as you this game?

Bc I seem like I'm scum
I realize how bad this looks now, but I kinda used a tos strat :/

Er what do you mean you seem like you're scum? You mean you think you look objectively like scum? What strat are you referring to?

[nancy]

Chronicle what kind of experience do you have with forum mafia?

[nancy]

I have Cronicle as a null town. When the point about him not do to much came up it made me think why is he a null-town. If anything he should just be null. I thought maybe he is just trying to sneak by. So, let's see what happens.

Chronicle has produced quite a bit of content. Why do you have a null read on the slot? What do you mean by trying to sneak by?

[nancy]

Chronicle what kind of experience do you have with forum mafia?

None. I've played IRL and chatmafia though. Sup?

Because my TR on you is essentially founded on the assumption that you have little to no experience with mafia and wouldn't be able to mimic Town play to the extent that you would have to be here to be scum.

pedit townlean.

[nancy]

And that read on Noodle.

I'm not scumreading Noodle anymore.

[nancy]

Spoiler: Uh, ramble..

Btw, my name doesn't get capitalized. Lowercase "n" every time. I don't know, one of my quirks? I've been correcting people on that since pretty much right from the start, when I joined MS a little over 3 months ago (it seems like so much longer). I didn't have any forum mafia experience before that but I'd played on EM for a few weeks and really took a liking to the game, except the atmosphere there just didn't connect with me and I wanted something a little more competitive. Found MS. I seemed to take naturally to the game, though, I don't know what that is, and I learned a lot very fast. That was thanks in large part to the supporting cast that I had (and still have) backing me up along the way. Pine has been the centerpiece of my time here, and I call him Senpine for a reason. But to be completely honest most of my learning happened outside of class time, so to speak, while reading through old games of various MS users who I felt had the most to teach me. So I had to take most of what I know for myself, which is really how I've operated all through life, so nothing new to me. (Ever heard the phrase "no free handouts"?) I think that's why I place such emphasis on teaching in newbies, though. And it's also why great IC's like Pine are so important. So many IC's don't take up that responsibility the way he does (granted, his activity this game so far hasn't made that a reality, but when he's his active self what you get is something that you'll struggle to find elsewhere).

Like, I had really poor fundamentals in my game because there was very little that I'd been actively taught by anyone except Pine and JaeReed (another good IC). You do get pieces of feedback here and there from other players (if you haven't yet, go read the dead thread of the newbie that Pine linked to), and those are golden, but for the most part you don't get much of anything and you have to feel your own way and grapple in the dark with your development as a player of mafia. One of the biggest flaws of my towngame was that I lacked confidence. Even when I felt that something was right, all it ever took was for someone to tell me I was wrong, or for people to not back up me and validate me, and I would assume that I had missed the mark and would abandon it. My current idea about why I lacked confidence is partly the way that I'd been burned by tunnels and conf!bias in the past (read Pine's caveat to my comment wrt not tunneling, it's important: not tunneling is a simplistic approach to the matter, what you need most is to recognize when you're in a bad tunnel and learn how to pull yourself out) and partly due to just believing I wasn't any good and thereby wasn't likely to hit in the mark in the first place. I don't think the latter was true, fwiw. While I was never much more than a decent player with potential to be good, I wasn't bad. But I did lack confidence, and that really undermined my game in a kind of "fatal flaw" sort of way. So I think if there's anything I can hopefully instill in the newbies here, it's confidence. Never be

over-confidence

, to the point that you are no longer checking yourself, but believe in yourself and don't let self-doubt cave at your ability to close.

Another major flaw in my towngame was laziness, and this is probably one of the most common flaws you'll find. Instead of really reasoning out all my reads and going through every scenario, taking myself step by step through thought processes and taking everything I could into consideration, I would just skip half the steps and jump to conclusions and not really bother to consider half of what I'd missed along the way. That was just a direct path to bad reads and sloppy play. Conf!bias really reared its head for me a lot of the time because of this. I would latch on to one or two details and take them for a ride and it would be a while, often too late, before I realized what had happened. This happened enough times that it eroded my confidence, and it could have been avoided just by being more circumspect by how I went about my business. The issue with lapsing into lazy reasoning is that it becomes increasingly hard to course correct and get back into being thorough and demanding of yourself the further you fall away from that. If you're lucky, one wrong flip (a scumread flipping Town) can jolt you out of that and wake you up, but even then it may only do so partially and it's up to you to take initiative and reset yourself properly, and even if you

do

it may very well still be too late in the game to fix what you broke. In the best of worlds, you and your fellow Townies are all reevaluating yourselves and each other in a critical way to keep all of you from lapsing into the kind of lazy mentality that loses most games for Town. Unfortunately, in most cases, Town simply doesn't rise to this challenge and ends up eating itself alive, resulting in a Town loss far more than a scum win.

Probably caring about not only the outcome but also the process is what underpins all of this though. I think there are a lot of players, particularly those from sites like EM, who don't have any great drive to win their games, and have even less drive to follow the process and really delve into gameplay. They're happy coasting or doing the bare minimum to get by and if they end up winning the game that's great, if they end up losing then fine, move on to a new game. I think there's a difference between wanting to win and wanting to win while doing your best, and having both at the same time is absolutely essential. You need the drive to win at your best. I was going to write, "and put yourself on the line to do so", but then I realize that's what caused me to give up playing, so I wouldn't advise doing that. Don't put yourself on the line. But

do

try the fuck out of your games. I actually never particularly minded losing games, to be entirely honest, but I absolutely minded the fuck out of not giving my best, and I think it's the latter that really drove me to want to win more than the actual desire to win. Sometimes that drive is totally absent. Sometimes it comes and goes over the course of a game. Sometimes other players drive you into apathy. When it happened to me I always felt like shit afterwards and wondered why I had even been playing. I think that's a healthy sense of responsibility to have. Better if you can avoid it altogether, though.

I don't really know why I wrote all of this but apparently I got really carried away so I guess I should probably spoiler the lot of it and expect that no one could possibly bother to read it. I guess I'm feeling sentimental about my time on MS and about the people who I've had the good fortune of meeting since I came here. There are a lot of people here with huge measures of generosity and for whatever reason the ones I've encountered have all shown me the kindness of extending that generosity my way. Okay yeah I clearly need to just stop typing at this point because I am rambling in the worst way, sorry.

[nancy]

That doesn't help me with understanding why you scumread him in the first place, or why you no longer scumread him

As stated previously in my ISO, I scumread him because his pushes were more attacks than attempts to hunt or gamesolve. I no longer scumread him because he at least appears to be attempting to engage with the table now, even if his recent sideline-y content is pretty terrible.

The one where I ask to be lynched. It's meant to show I am perfectly fine with being lynched (something scum wouldn't be on d1). I realized that tos is not equivalent to forum mafia :p

Yeah, refer to my comments already made in response to that. It's basically just WIFOM and not indicative at all of a Town mindset. Town should absolutely not be okay with being lynched Day 1 or ever. Getting lynched is against your wincon regardless of alignment with the exception of a few rare circumstances that aren't worth getting into here.

[nancy]

nancy I read it. Don't really know what's the relevance to this game.
Think is was worth an unvote?

Sorry, it wasn't very relevant at all.... I don't really know why Noodle was scumreading me in the first place, and I have even less of an idea why he'd be pushing an empty slot over me now. Suffice it to say that the behavior is pretty strange and I also don't get why he's be defending WM so consistently throughout the game. Anyway, could you answer my questions about your vote please?

Still waiting on those reads you promised, Noodle. Would be great if you could throw them in when you case Pine.

[nancy]

I'm actually more interested in seeing what TesXX has to say. Explcit pressure is not very useful. Try to convince me to lynch chronicle instead and I might listen.

Tes, who do you think is mafia?

Come on, don't be shy. I'm very curious.

I will say who I think is scum if you claim

tracker

or

not tracker.

Tes this is honestly just a cop-out. You can't wait for this to give reads and get involved.

[nancy]

Considering we have just over 2 and a half days left, we probably should decide on a lynch. I say we kill screen!
VOTE: Srceene

Why?

[nancy]

Well, this pretty much sums up what I hate about putting effort into this; you're simply ignoring everything relevant I've posted so far. Pretending you don't know why I was scumreading you. Why do you even bother?

You misunderstood my post. I have no idea how you've managed to get a scumread out of my content. I know why you've /said/ you've gotten a scumread out of it. It just makes no sense.

Do you need something else?

Elaboration and reasoning would be helpful

[nancy]

VOTE: Loopdan

[nancy]

Fine. Then why do you bother to defend yourself? Rhetorical question, don't answer.

I mean, I actually kinda haven't bothered?

[nancy]

Now, can we vote Pine?

Need to Loopdan to come in and respond to the claim and this wagon first.

[nancy]

Cool. Come bus then, Loopdan.

VOTE: Pine

[nancy]

VOTE: nancy

[nancy]

There's actually a decent amount of sophisticated logic behind the vote. Not common at all. Besides which I only said that I didn't get why Noodle was so intent on pushing an empty slot, not that I agreed that it's not cool to vote an empty slot. What are your reads on Loopdan and Pine?

[nancy]

Also do you like Noodle's scumcase on Pine?

[nancy]

Wait are you actually voting me just because Loopdan and Noodle both voiced support for a nancy wagon? Lmao.

[nancy]

Now, can we vote Pine?

?

VOTE: Noodle

[nancy]

(This is the part where you explain why you're abandoning your push on Pine so easily.)

[nancy]

How have I always been the more suspicious one? What do you mean when you say I try to repel a lot of decent scumreads? What unstable reads are you referring to? I wasn't really defending anything, I was just correcting src's misconception. Assuming that I voted him because you and Loopdan expressed willingness to lynch him is lazy reasoning and you never engaged with me to determine whether that might really be the case. You also haven't shown how, even if that were true, it would mean that I was scum. Do you believe that I don't care about a Town win solely because I sheeped your vote on Pine, or for other reasons as well?

[nancy]

Pine I miss you.

[nancy]

nancy I read it. Don't really know what's the relevance to this game.
Think is was worth an unvote?

Not in itself, no. And I still don't see her as town yet. Still, my core-argument isn't really that strong anymore. And I've changed my mind about Pine. To me, he's suspicious in many ways.

[...] Now, can we vote Pine?

Of the two you've always been the more suspicious one.

Idgi.


Also,

Sorry for not posting detailed reads yet. I'll get to it.

Still waiting for this.


And,

^Superb. Pine or Nancy here

Why only these two? Haven't you expressed suspicions about other slots recently? Do you think that Pine and I could be scum together? What do you make of the Pine quote in my signature?

[nancy]

;~;

[nancy]

Senpine.. ;~;
Don't leave your kohai behind..
Where ever you go!
I can hang on your shoulders.
And no matter what obstacles we face..
Together we'll overcome it!
We'll never ever bus each other.
'Cause that's just lazy.
Senpai.. stop lurking, Senpai!
You're lurking too much!
Slow down! Don't take so many games!
Senpai..
Don't leave me behind OK?
How can I get anywhere..
If I can't hang on your shoulders!
q.q
Evil Pine.. no, you should be a tree.
'Cause trees stay in one place, right?
..
Now I'm lonesome.
Bye..
T_T

[nancy]

You're simply repeating my post, only with questionmarks. Like you did back when we first started arguing. (Post 100). It's a great method to make people less interested to get involved.

I don't see any need to elaborate on my post, as it should be pretty understandable to whoever has been paying attention to the game.

As for the unstable reads, go back and read through my post(for real this time), and I'm pretty sure you'll find a couple. You obviously didn't care to do so the first time.

No no no no this is the completely wrong mindset. I'm asking you questions to get more out of you, because you haven't explained things properly and people need explanations to be able to sort things for you. We can't follow your thought processes if you don't lay them out for us, and you'll never realize if there's anything wrong with your thought processes if you don't do the same. It's a great method to /interact/, to start a conversation and get people /involved/. Like, thinking that someone is suspicious for trying to delve into your reasoning is the absolute OPPOSITE of what should be happening. You 100% need to fix this approach if you're Town.

You /do/ need to elaborate on your post, because it /isn't/ understandable.

I don't want to guess for myself which unstable reads you're referring to. I want you to tell me, so that I know precisely what you are thinking, where those thoughts are coming from, and where they are going. If I simply read your posts and assume that I am following your thought processes then there is SO MUCH room for error and misinterpretation and that is EXACTLY what Town needs to avoid like the plague.

This post of yours is honestly really really bad. You're assuming the worst about my motivations at every single opportunity and you're showing that you don't care /one bit/ about engaging with me, instead you just want to push a self-serving narrative and portray my actions in a way that fits with that, which is the /complete opposite/ of /everything/ you should be doing as a Townie.

[nancy]

Before Pine was being replaced I preferred a WhyMafia lynch because given nancy and pine's close relationship it's likely that if one of them is town they will accurately read the other at some point in the game. I've had success with forcing close players to read each other. But with pine being replaced that is lost.

@nancy-- Please explain your pine vote and then unvote.

Well now that Pine is replacing out I don't mind saying this anymore but basically I've had a secret scumread on Pine for most of the game and have been dancing with him to get a feel on whether that read is accurate or not. I bit on his push on Noodle and sold a few hard reads to see how he'd react. When he then came back and nearly mirrored my reads, that was a sign to me that (he thought) he had pocketed me. Since he posted his readslist, most of my focus has been on sorting his scumreads, especially Noodle. The way that Noodle has conducted his push on Pine has seemed fairly townie and essentially me sorting Noodle as Town sorts Pine as scum by PoE. But it's not just Noodle. I've sorted you and src as Town and Tes remains the only one I'm not really able to sort anywhere. The Tracker claim eliminates another slot that I was suspecting due to associatives with Pine, and leaves only WM and Chronicle with strong Pine associatives.

Here's the thing though, I can't allow myself to conf!bias on that PoE and assume that I am actually correct in my read on Pine, and if Noodle is scum (and he's been behaving like scum for most of the game) then that functionally confirms Pine as Town. So my vote was because I wanted to see who would join the wagon, which would help me feel better about where I had sorted people, and my unvote was because Noodle unvoted and I need to sort him more.

[nancy]

Hi Drixx. You scum this time?

[nancy]

Tes it would be great if you could say/do things. Like anything.

[nancy]

If 699 is all you have to say, Noodle, I feel very good about lynching you.

[nancy]

^ok

[nancy]

Your only case on me, Noodle, is some garbage about how I must have lied about not knowing that I was an SE before immediately correcting myself (because that's totally a thing that futhers scum win-con????) and that my focus on teaching and gameplay rather than on gearing up the game with claims is playing against my win-con, both of which are completely unsubstantiated nonsense, and that I was somehow dodging your questions despite having already answered them and despite having produced more content so far than several other slots on the table /combined/. Your scumread on me is vacuous and lazy and if you want to not be lynched you should get off your ass and expend a little more than the modicum of effort I've seen from you so far.

I kept my scumread of Pine secret for reasons that I've already stated in the /same paragraph/ as where I stated that I had kept it secret. You cannot dance with a scum if they do not think you are Town.

I considered waiting until after you had posted, Drixx, but I weighed the pros and cons decided I was fine with making the post. Thoughts on Noodle, Tes, and the gamestate, please.

[nancy]

Your only case on me, Noodle, is some garbage about how I must have lied about not knowing that I was an SE before immediately correcting myself (because that's totally a thing that futhers scum win-con????) and that my focus on teaching and gameplay rather than on gearing up the game with claims is playing against my win-con, both of which are completely unsubstantiated nonsense, and that I was somehow dodging your questions despite having already answered them and despite having produced more content so far than several other slots on the table /combined/. Your scumread on me is vacuous and lazy and if you want to not be lynched you should get off your ass and expend a little more than the modicum of effort I've seen from you so far.

I kept my scumread of Pine secret for reasons that I've already stated in the /same paragraph/ as where I stated that I had kept it secret. You cannot dance with a scum if they do not think you are Townreading them.

I considered waiting until after you had posted, Drixx, but I weighed the pros and cons decided I was fine with making the post. Thoughts on Noodle, Tes, and the gamestate, please.

Edit.

[nancy]

Can you explain the terminology a bit? What's poE. Also, what do you mean by "The Tracker claim eliminates another slot that I was suspecting due to associatives with Pine, and leaves only WM and Chronicle with strong Pine associative?"
Finally, what does this statement mean?
"I can't allow myself to conf!bias on that PoE "

Sure! Sorry. PoE stands for Process of Elimination. It basically involves ruling out different combinations of slots as this or that alignment together in order to refine your reads. For instance, PoE suggests that both Pine and I are extremely unlikely to be scum with anyone we push due to our anti-bus stance, so if you believe that either of us are scum you can safely eliminate possible pairings based on that. It also means that if we're scum, our scumpartner is unlikely to be below null in our reads, which means that if Pine is scum then one of {Chronicle, WM} are

probably

scum, with a lesser but still reasonable chance of {Loopdan, src} being the scumbud.

If you go through Pine's ISO you'll notice that his treatment of your slot is fairly odd, mostly due to the way he's postured around your content and at times seems to have gone out of his way to take favorable interpretations of your content. There are three basic ways to interpret this: he's scumbuds with you and wants to paint you in the best light possible, he's scum without you and wants to create false associatives to bury you if he flips, he's Town and he wants to be an encouraging IC. I'm currently leaning towards the third option.

"I can't allow myself to conf!bias on that PoE" means that if I focus on the PoE of possible scumbuds with scum!Pine, I'm in danger of getting caught up in a constructed narrative where Pine is scum, and ignore other alternatives. Conf!biasing is always liable to happen when you notice one or two details that seem strange in a certain way. Taking those little details and running off with them into an elaborate narrative is a surefire way to blind yourself to what is actually going on in the game and wrongly clear slots as Town that may actually be scum. So I take note of those associatives between Pine and other slots, but I am careful not to let myself get caught up in that narrative and continually check myself to pull myself out of it if I do start drifting that way. That doesn't mean that the PoE isn't valid, it just means that I have to not let it shape my reads and my approach to the game.

[nancy]

And ftr, now that I seem to have unfortunately killed this push on me, there's a fairly strong indicator as to why I'm not scum this game that no one has mentioned yet: I've pushed the gamestate more than any other slot in the game and yet at no point before now have I tried to seriously push any wagons. If I were scum I would have almost certainly been leveraging my content towards pushing slots in order to get claims from them and get a better PoE on the NK if not out a PR. The fact that there have been no L-1 wagons at this point (WM came closest with L-2?) suggests that scum are either not interested in or not capable of pushing wagons.

[nancy]

WM how do you feel about your play so far and how do you feel about the gamestate right now?

[nancy]

Yep, basically. State of the game as it stands currently.

[nancy]

Nah it's just super reliable meta.

[nancy]

A trust tell is like, if you have a friend that is practically incapable of lying and you ask them directly if they're scum. It's something that other people wouldn't know about and it's cheating because you're using OOG information to gain an information advantage.

[nancy]

If you have a decent reason why you think I might be lying about my read on Pine then please argue it but blankly stating that you don't believe it isn't going to get you anywhere.

Why do you think you won't get lynched? Instead of complaining in hyperbole about being threatened, why don't you provide actual content for people to read?

[nancy]

Noodle your behavior is doing you no favours regardless of your alignment here. If you're Town you need to talk about your reasoning and thought processes because right now you look a little like caught scum and there is literally no reason why we should not lynch you if you aren't capable of providing more than empty attacks on other slots.

[nancy]

How is it not doing me any favours? Why do I look a little like caught scum? Why should I be lynched based on not bringing more that empty attacks on other slots?

It's not doing you any favors because you're behaving like scum: empty reasoning and absence of elaboration, refusal to engage meaningfully with other slots, lack of conviction, not giving reads, none of this is good Town behavior, which is why I am telling you if you are Town you need to shape up fast because otherwise I have no other conclusion to come to except that you are scum. You've shown the willingness to read the thread thoroughly and put content out there and yet you are not willing to extrapolate on that content, why is that?

And

Why in the world

would I want to explain myself to someone who regard all my reads as

garbage

completely unsubstantiated nonsense

vacuous and lazy

modicum of effort

I've been pushing you for explanation far before I characterized your content in that way and saying that you don't want to engage with me because I'm calling you out is disingenuous and furthermore in contradiction to your previously stated position of not wanting me to hold anything back (which, btw, I still am, but you're seeing more of me). If you're Town and really think that I'm scum you should be arguing with my reasoning in order to make it plain to all that you are Town and I am scum. The fact that you have repeatedly refused to do this is why I am pushing for your lynch. There is no Town motivation in what you're doing right now.

[nancy]

I am currently royally fucking you over

[nancy]

Sure you are.

[nancy]

I am lazy to read.

Please summarise the last 3 pages for me so that I don't have to sit down and read all of them.

^@nancy and noodle

Thanks

No. Don't be lazy. 3 pages is a literal cinch.

[nancy]

There haven't been much content from Pine at all. There have already been several arguably fine scumreads on you already. This should be obvious to you, considering the way I've been onto you for the most part of the game. Meaningless question.

Your scumread has already been shown to be nonsense, Chronicle scumread me for apparently being defensive, which isn't actually scum indicative and is anyway a misreading of my content, who else scumread me? There haven't been any fine scumreads on me, if I'm forgetting them or missing them then I'd love for them to be pointed out. It's not at all a meaningless question because I am literally asking you expand on your thought processes which now that you have finally done seem to simply be that other people have scumread me therefore I have been more suspicious, which doesn't display even the slightest iota of original thinking and you should absolutely reconsider your read of me with your /own/ opinions.

Regardless of what you say, you are pretty defensive.

You're probably just misreading the tone of my posts. It's fine though, keep developing that. It can also be difficult playing with people for the first time because you're not used to how they operate.

On several occasions, instead of casually responding by giving a counter-argument, you answer with a whole bunch of questions(

only

when you're being scumread):

Hold on, you've said I'm defensive and yet you're now saying that I don't respond with counter-arguments but instead by trying to engage in conversation? How does that add up? Doing the first would be the only thing that I could see as potentially qualifying for being defensive. How is trying to talk to someone being defensive and how does that support a scumread in the slightest way?

Well, first of: I find it weird how you were not responding at all to my Pine-post. It's like you didn't read it, which would be weird considering you voted him moments later.
I scumread him for defending you and attacking me. It's pretty much the same game you've been playing. If you were

town

, you'd likely be all over this, and calling out my read for being bs (like you usually do).

If I followed you, wouldn't you consider it safe to say that I liked your case? Isn't a vote a response?

[nancy]

VOTE: nancy

come on board loop

Why?

[nancy]

Why?

[nancy]

That's not an answer to my question. Why does my push suck? Why am I scum?

[nancy]

Tell me, if you haven't even bothered to read the past few pages, how did you reach the conclusion that my push sucks?

[nancy]

They've not gone nowhere, actually. Noodle finally responded to some of my questions and I've drawn a scummy as fuck vote from you.

pedit did you read the past few pages or not?

[nancy]

Then why are you asking redundant questions? I've spent the literally past few pages pushing Noodle to try and sort him despite his most adamant resistance at being sorted and I pretty clearly stated why his behavior wasn't indicative of a Town mentality there.

[nancy]

I won't get lynched.

I feel certain I won't get lynched.

This is why I said you were behaving like caught scum, ftr Noodle. The only way you soft PR like this is if you are scum because if you were actually a PR you would be trying to get the wagon off you so that you didn't have to claim, not sitting back and refusing to engage with people at risk of getting run up to L-1.

[nancy]

Softing PR is a staple of the caught!scum diet and there is literally no reason for him to soft PR there if he is Town.

[nancy]

but if you would to try, tell me why noodle is scum

you're saying this question is redundant?

Yes, given that I've spent the past few pages talking about this.

[nancy]

There is literally nothing about Noodle that reads as obvtown and he hasn't said once that he considers himself obvtown.

The summary is that he's scum because he refuses to back his shit up, he isn't questioning himself, and he doesn't care about being sorted. Town wants to help people sort them. Scum do not.

Like, his stances are a mess of contradictions and it's not as though I've come at him with anything other than reasonable questions about his motivation and thought processes and yet all he's responded with until his most recent post is more or less gtfo.

[nancy]

How does it make sense that he would vote someone who is doing things over someone who is not doing things?

He hasn't backed up pretty much anything except his TR on WM and his SR on Pine. His attacks on me have been effectively baseless.

Contradictions.. he says that he doesn't think claiming is a good idea then immediately claims anyway, says that he wants me to not hold back and when I come at him he says that he's not going to engage with me, he says that his scumread on me has weakened and pushes on Pine then votes me again and says that I've always been more suspicious, he can't even describe why he's scumreading me except saying that other people have been too or that I've been teaching, he says that I've been defensive then describes defensiveness as engaging in conversation????

Instead of just throwing shade for me hiding my read on Pine, why don't you try to engage in a way that might be remotely productive?

Why are you interested in defending Noodle?

(Still waiting on reasons why you're scumreading me..)

[nancy]

You don't think Noodle can defend himself? Saying that you think Noodle is Town isn't really answering my question. It's Day 1 and I don't believe anyone can be completely positive in their reads yet barring meta so the question remains, why are you going out of your way to defend him?

i keep flipping between the past few pages and i hate this post because of how much it misreps noodle. has he not explained his read on you prior to his most recent vote? yes he has, since a really fucking long time ago. has he been hiding any reads or failed to explain them? not that i can remember?

That post doesn't misrep Noodle at all. I have already shown why his old reasons for scumreading me are baseless and he has provided nothing new. His scumread of me is essentially blowing up a few basically NAI quibbles while categorically ignoring the remainder of my content.

sure, granted your question on what he meant by "unstable reads" was valid, because that wasn't very clear, but everything else here just paints noodle's recent frustration in bad light, and if you say that "assuming the worst about (one's) motivations at every single opportunity" is the "complete opposite of everything you should be doing as a townie", then you seem to be living your very own scumtells right here, because all you have done a lot of downtalking noodle's reads (707) without really explaining why they are reads that would come from scum, as opposed to town having wrong reads.

Where did I state that it was a scumtell? The entire post is practically /begging/ him to give me /anything/ to work with. I am literally assuming that he is Town in that post because it makes no sense to try so desperate to show someone what they're doing wrong and to get them to talk to you if you just think they are scum.

pedit: why ask me? i'm not noodle.

EXACTLY. So why are you designating yourself his defender? I'm asking you /because/ you stepped in to defend him.

uhm, baseless meaning he has nothing to back up his scumreads, then no. baseless meaning you don't agree that his reasons for scumreading you are valid, then maybe.

So you think that his reasons for scumreading me are valid?

lol, so this contradictions have nothing to do with his reads and all to do with his opinions on setup spec? then i'm not really interested. also, can you remind me when he says his scumread on you weakened?

Holy shit no. Reread the post. Reread the thread, I don't know. Reread something. Just no.

[nancy]

Am I the only one trying to solve this game lol

Aslan get your booty in here nows

[nancy]

YOU'RE NOT ASLAN

[nancy]

;~;

[nancy]

It's okayyyy

Hooray VCs, I like VCs they are yummy!

[nancy]

Mini I'm bored, let's talk about stuff.

[nancy]

Oh snap I stole your pagetop sorry..

[nancy]

It was an accident Mini I promise.

BlackVoid Aslan is my bestest MS friend everer but I'm sure you're lots of fun, let's be friends too! I need a friend this game.

[nancy]

[nancy]

OK! ^_^ ♥

[nancy]

Btw Noodle if you want to see a sample of what I look like when I'm actually powerlynching someone, up to 324: Too Cute.

(And I was actually sorting Infinity as Town there, which is why I didn't pull the trigger on it.)

[nancy]

Oh I insulted Drixx there tho.. that wasn't nice

[nancy]

That was pretty good acting tho tbh ngl.

[nancy]

This flavor is actually the best thing ever.

[nancy]

<3

Btw BlackVoid, let me know if you need anything to help you get involved and caught up. You likely won't be around tomorrow so make the most of today please? If we can sync up on reads that would be great because at the moment Town is extremely apathetic and mostly lurking and I don't really have anyone to bounce ideas off before deadline.

[nancy]

You cannot dance with a scum if they do not think you are Townreading them.

Nancy explain the bold part.

Fixed the quote.. scum aren't typically as cooperative when they're being scumread.

I disagree. I've seen newer players soft claim at the first sniff of a wagon on them.

Link to these examples? It's horrible play by Town.

Do you have anything significant to contribute here Loopdan? You've been lurking pretty much the entirety of the Day so far, I've seen next to nothing from you, and you are squarely within my lynchpool as you stand right now.

[nancy]

Nancy, how is Noodle scum if you have secretly been scumreading pine and pine was voting noodle and pine never buses?

I think it's pretty clear that I'm not done sorting Noodle yet.

It's horrible play by Town.

That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Or that it is scum motivated.

Link to the examples please.

you are squarely within my lynchpool as you stand right now.

Didn't you recently say I was a TR?

I recently said I was sorting you as Town. You've been hovering around the weakest of townleans for most of the game.

Also I think the bolded part in 706 reveals a scum POV.

VOTE: nancy

You're going to have to work pretty hard to explain how you figure that.

[nancy]

See this is why the whole claiming shenanigans at the start of the game are totally useless. THESE interactions here are where the gold is. Seeing how people interact with your slot when your status is unknown. NOT gearing up the game to follow PRs, and being lazy about scumhunting as a result. Over-reliance on PRs is why Town meta is so weak on MS. Like how the fuck are we supposed to get anything half as useful from people interacting with conf!towns?

[nancy]

Ok
We need a lynch target
My suspects
Tes - It appears that he's either lurking rn or just can't play atm. If he can't play, I feel kinda guilty. However, he promised a reads list ages ago. He is yet to give his solid opinion on most players. However, he continually pushed for us to use the setup. That would be ok, but that's literally his only contribution.
Loop - Can someone explain why he's town? I'm reading all his posts. All he's seem to done is push myself and Nancy. He doesn't seem to be explaining himself very well. Instead, he's questioning, and questioning. However, he has given some good insight, so I would prefer a Tes lynch

You could say the same for Noodle wrt to not giving a solid opinion on most players. What good insight do you think Loopdan has given? I'll answer why I was tentatively sorting him as Town in a new post.

[nancy]

What do you think of Tes?

I think he's done next to nothing to warrant being read as Town and yet I find myself gutreading him as Town.

[nancy]

These are all valid points imo

792 isn't a valid point because it betrays the fact that Loopdan hasn't really been reading the thread. As for the rest, do you think that scum can't make valid points? What do you think was going through his head when he made those posts?

[nancy]

@nancy I agree that this strat is not the best way to introduce newbies to the game, but I'm not the IC (and neither are you). Your wincon should take precedence over your desire to teach newbs. I get opposing the BP claim strat if the claims hadn't started yet, but with 6/9 already claiming it only helps scum to have incomplete claims.

Also, this would not detract from RVS if you would have followed instructions and claimed in your first post.

@srceen-- you too

I refuse to vote anywhere else but non-claimers until this is resolved.

VOTE: nancy

This is actually a somewhat scummy post due the way that Loopdan is abnegating all responsibility for the claiming situation while pushing it very hard, and looking back at it now I don't believe him when he says that he doesn't think this strat is the best way to introduce newbies to the game, but at the time I didn't register that.

Explain why you felt it necessary to state anything other than "I am not BP."

Sometimes votes are for lynching. Sometimes they are for pressure. Sometimes for gauging reactions of the voted players or others.

My pine vote is multipurpose.

@nancy-- I'm getting the feeling you already know the answer.

@mod-- I'm voting pine.

Some mild townie tones from these posts at the time that I read them but in retrospect the tone here is pretty flat and there's nothing genuinely Town motivated behind any of these.

Reasons I'm wary of nancy:
1. Her refusal to claim and the continual arguments over the strategy
2. Making a huge deal about being all about teaching newbies over wincon
3. For arguing pretty much exactly what scum in my last Newbie argued when opposing the BP claim strat day1.
4. For the VT claim out of nowhere that is in no way pro-town (the post does look like legit frustration, but that doesn't mean it's town frustration)
5. On the other hand 316 looks like fake frustration

On the other hand:
1. nancy's answer to me in 385 looks town. Like if she is scum that is seriously good buddying. I disagree with the rest of 385 where she tries to explain why she was "obviously" VT, but I can see the reasoning possibly coming from town.
2. I don't agree with 150, but that looks like town.
3. When she's not arguing about the claiming strat, there is some hunting and evidence of an uninformed mindset (ex:158, 160, 170)

@Nancy-- I really want a more in-depth read from you on Pine. I don't have much insight on his alignment. And you had an early TR on him, which you've only explained as...

Why are you so sure pine is town? He made only a few posts and they were simply to defend you. I'm just interested in hearing your reasoning

Pine and I are friends, and I like to think I can get a pretty good read on him early on. Combination of gut and recognizing patterns.

What patterns?

Explanation seems more or less believable here and this post was the main reason my townlean on his slot stuck, except that upon closer review none of the reasons really stick at all. Like I don't see how 158 or 160 display an uninformed mindset, I see no reason why scum couldn't fake 150, and essentially none of the reasons he has given are actually indicative of nearly anything as he's explained them (and for the most part he hasn't explained them, he's just linked to posts and labelled it as this or that).

OK so I went through his ISO to remind myself why I had him as a townlean and I have no factual idea how I arrived at that, although it may just be that the overall trajectory of his ISO has lended new perspective to the earlier content, and now I find myself wanting to scumread the fuck out of him.

Like, everything that I was giving him the benefit of the doubt on before now just looks fake, the whole "did you get communication from the mod" thing, voting Pine while posturing on my slot, randomly asserting that Tes and Noodle were screaming Town, attacking WM over exaggerated and superficial bullshit.. There's literally no attempts to gamesolve from this slot and he's just an unapologetic lurksack. /Not even/ mentioning his push on me which very nearly trumps all the nonsense that's been brought against me so far today.

VOTE: Loopdan

I hardclaim 1-shot Bulletproof and you can kindly get yourself fucking lynched, Loopdan.

I didn't claim before for all the reasons /already stated/, everything about the claim strategy is awful and counterproductive to what mafia should be about which is /scumhunting/, and people can't scumhunt your slot when you're /conftown/. I softed BP on page one in my jocular conversation with WM where I talked about taking to him to LyLo because /yes/ I am guaranteed going to be in LyLo if there ever is one—and there probably isn't because I'm pretty damned confident that the team is {Drixx, Loopdan}, so kindly save the complaints about losing the Tracker for "nothing" and no it was not my plan to have to claim, I fully intended to powertown the fuck out of today and eat a shot tonight but you can never underestimate the ability of bad Towns to tunnel on obvtowns for ridiculous reasons so here we are.

[nancy]

Hey Noodle, unless you feel like counterclaiming (and by all means, PLEASE try and counterclaim me), I am conf!town and now would be a good time to insert facepalms at yourself and actually start doing things to help Town win this game, like voting scum.

[nancy]

Btw I love this post by GOAT mhsmith.

viewtopic.php?p=9015043#p9015043

I'm going to bed in a minute, talk to you tomorrow Tes

[nancy]

Tracker was killed off as soon as people started pushing me for shit reasons and forced me to claim. BEFORE that it was pretty likely that scum would have assumed doc protection and not targeted the tracker which would mean that I would probably become the primary target given that I have by far been the most consistent driving force in this game. There IS guaranteed scum on my wagon which means {Chronicle, Loopdan, Noodle}. That + Drixx is my lynchpool.

I don't want to wake up to see anyone lynched while I sleeping so please hold off on pulling the trigger until then. We have just under 2 days until deadline and I intend on using that time as completely as possible and make use of BlackVoid's voice while we have it and reach consensus on a lynch.

Goodnight.

pedit lol or Loopdan will just claim scum for us.

[nancy]

I admire your effort Loopdan but I have a proven track record of fakeclaiming and hiding my reads as Town so the only way for you to actually push for my lynch right now is by scumclaiming.

[nancy]

And I don't think it's pro town to announce soft claims to everyone.

It's completely pro-town if you are a PR and the soft is fake.

[nancy]

Spoiler:

And I don't think it's pro town to announce soft claims to everyone.

This is a pretty scummy response btw, shading me without commiting to anything.

As bad as you say the strategy was, it's worse to go against it and have another pr killed.

I going to think a bit but right now at the very least you are a policy lynch.

This post makes zero sense. You do not policy lynch confirmed Town. I fakeclaimed VT as a gambit because I had absolute faith in my ability to be obvtown. What I didn't take into account was that Town would be utterly ridiculous and tunnel me.

Scum knows who is town, so the statement makes no sense.

No, for the love of god. You keep quoting that post as if I didn't fix it with an edit. Your interpretation makes no sense even if you assume that's how I intended the write the sentence. (It makes no sense whatsoever that way so I don't see how you can, but you do you.)

Because that means we have no doc to protect the tracker. Am I wrong?

This is the only thing that gives me pause about a nancy lynch. I fully expected Noodle to CC nancy here.

And if he isn't then town!nancy jumping on his soft-claim makes sense.

Ftr this is a somewhat townie response to the situation.

Why are you so obsessed about surviving this nancy, that you'd like to sacrifice tracker for your own survival. You didn't even have to use this argument before you were L-1, and if you didn't it could be played out pretty well, scum believing tracker was protected. To me you look like town, ruining the game. Or scum claim to be BP.

Obviously no one else are gonna counterclaim BP, because everyone claimed not to be already. If someone's gonna claim, it gotta be the doc, but that's risky, so don't. We'll know if nancy is scum as soon as someone manages to survive the night.

Please, thoughts on this.

Selfish, maybe, I'll give you that. I agree that it could have played out pretty well, but it didn't. I don't think I'm ruining the game because unless we lynch scum today the Tracker result is actually not that significant. There's a reason Tracker setups have a low winrate in the newbie matrix and it's because the role doesn't become useful until after there's been a scum lynch and unless Drixx is Town I guarantee that I would have been eating a shot tonight so it would only have taken one night for scum to realize that I'd fakeclaimed VT and there was no doc.

[nancy]

Spoiler:

That's just it.
She just killed a doc or a tracker. Town would not do that. (Should not). If she is telling the truth her best bet would have been to keep her mouth shut at this point.

I didn't just kill a doc because there is no doc. I am uncounterclaimed and confirmed Town. You're welcome to think that I have played suboptimally, and I probably have, but under the circumstances I don't think I had any choice. Town has been wasting their time pushing on me all Day, we're approaching deadline, I was being run up for god knows why, and I got plenty of valuable reactions in any case. Do you think that I should not have redacted my VT fakeclaim and let myself get lynched by an incompetent Town? So then I flip BP and the Tracker dies and Town has lost both their PRs. Does that honestly seem more optimal to you that what I did?

I think we should leave it to the doc to decide if they want to counterclaim. If I was doc I wouldn't CC. I'd just try to get nancy lynched.

There will be no CC because there is no doctor. Saying this is just giving scum leeway to push for the lynch of a conf!town.

@nancy-- Do you have any crumbs for your BP claim?

BPs should NEVER crumb and in this setup especially it really isn't something that matters because PRs are either counterclaimed or not and there are no fakeclaims outside of the matrix. (I'd actually expect scum, not Town, to crumb if they planned to fakeclaim BP at some point in the hope that it might make their claim seem more believable.)

Broke this into multiple posts for mobile users.

[nancy]

I caught up on stuff that happened since I replaced in. nancy's moves so far have been really suboptimal if she's town. It's possible she claimed 1-shot BP as scum to bait a doc claim.

If that's the case, the doc counterclaiming at this point is actually the best idea.

Then we lynch nancy, the doc is nightkilled. Since there is no roleblocker and only one scum would be left, whoever I track tonight will be cleared. So, even if we mislynch D2 and I get killed N2, there will be a tracker clear on D3. I don't want to risk lynching nancy if she's actually a 1-shot BP and the value of keeping a doc hidden at this point isn't much higher than just counterclaiming.

If you are town, please don't fake-claim

(I don't know why this needs to be said but it's been happening so often in recent games I've played or modded in).

Holy shit I knew we were going to be friends.

[nancy]

Spoiler:

Interesting gambit. I can't decide which alignment it makes more sense for. Like ... it has been demonstrated that an early BP claim is mechanically absurd and nearly breaks the newbie setup, so sitting on it for that long seems a little off, especially when I know for a fact you've seen the mechanical ploy wreck into a completely perfect win. I'm also going to admit to a little bias because you are now like 0 for 3 in reading me and have claimed you were sure I was scum each time.

I can kind of see both worlds being plausible. Can you help me with a run down on the events of the day in temporal order and what you were thinking at each moment and what the reasoning was that led you to play things out this way.

There's no possible way for me have claimed here as scum without getting counterclaimed and being lynched. If I were scum my best hope at staying alive would have simply been to fight my lynch with everything I had.

(It's not technically 0/3 because in our newbie I actually didn't think you were scum after I read Day 2, in Too Cute I didn't have any read on you but RC did so I just sheeped his read, here my read on you is like 95% Pine and PoE, only in Civ mafia did I misread you as Town, but anyway legalities (I think I'm 1/2?) aside yes I will freely admit that I have absolutely no clue how to read you )

Rundown of the Day:
- I categorically oppose the claim situation from my first post and get called scum for it because Loopdan was in a game where scum did that.
- I gambit a VT claim because even if a Tracker claim does come on the table, it's unlikely they'll be shot because they'd assume doc protection (my initial plan was to be scummy enough to not attract a NK ala my attack on Tes but I decided to abandon that and just play like a BP properly because I didn't want to teach newbies bad scumhunting which is 100% what this queue should be about).
- Town lurks and otherwise obsesses a bunch over the claim strat and teaching philosophy.
- People scumread me for my philosophy wrt to teaching.
- People scumread me for stopping teaching (post-V/LA) and pushing my reads.
- I get run up by Noodle who I still don't believe even knows why he is scumreading me, Chronicle who has been hard buddying Noodle all game and has no actual reasons for a scumread, and Loopdan who is claiming that I scumslipped or something, and so now I am forced to claim in order to get Town to stop dicking around.
- We're apparently now considering lynching the uncounterclaimed PR because sure, that's totally something you do.

I categorically opposed the claim situation and did everything I could to fight it because I completely believe that it's bad play for newbies and should not be taught. Literally one of the best ways to sort alignment is by having other slots scumhunt you and noticing how they do it. They can't do that if you're conf!town from page 1. I decided to fakeclaim VT to facilitate that, and there was a 50% chance that there was no Tracker anyway so those were odds I was willing to fly on.

[nancy]

Like ... you basically just scum claimed and cleared Nancy with this post.

How is that post a scumclaim and not just poor logic?

[nancy]

That's a probabilistic argument and it fails in light of the fact that we have information to work with. In fact ... I would go so far as to say that how Nancy responds to my request will have a HUGE impact on how the rest of this plays out. Try to read between the lines BlackVoid. If scum is who I think it is, I'm quite sure they will see what you didn't.

Which request?

[nancy]

I can't be the only one who finds this entire wall fake as hell.

You're not.

To elaborate somewhat - that wall of Pine's seems designed to get him into nancy's good books (which would imply nancy-town). He just takes it for granted that nancy is town, laying some sort of trap and scumreads people for "falling into her trap" and "reacting to her push like caught scum." It feels really simplistic and not like he's trying to understand other's perspective. More like he's telling nancy what she wants to hear.

Precisely. He was hard buddying me in practically every one of his posts in a way that doesn't even make sense. Like it wasn't even realistic buddying it was just super blatant. Plus the chainsaw on Noodle.

W/E

VOTE: Noodles

This post is really gross. I don't believe that was a scumslip by Noodle and I don't think Town just says yeah okay and goes along with it like that.

VOTE: Src

[nancy]

I myself think that the BP or not BP strategy takes away the "you must defend yourself,

noob

young padawan" part but I think that should be solved by changing up Matrix-6, not refusing to do the strategy. There is a thread about adjusting Matrix-6 that you may like.

This is really a discussion for post-game but I think that the kind of opposition to the claim strat that I displayed here is part of what fuels the discussion about whether it should or shouldn't be done and why. Nothing is discussed if people just go along with the herd.

[nancy]

I'll follow you on Drixx but talk to me about the rest of your reads first? Chronicle especially. I don't want to go to Night any earlier than we have to and I'd love to digest with you as much as possible before then.

[nancy]

Taking down a Town IC and dynamic SE would virtually guarantee a scum win.

Not sure why this is mentioned by an IC at all. It's a bad argument to avoid getting lynched, and shouldn't be used if one were an experienced town-player.

I'd also like to think that Pine would've had more insight as an IC, than to tunnel me from beginning till end. Not

once

did he see any of my posts as slightly townish, and avoided mentioning the posts that weren't scummy enough. As town, I'm pretty sure he'd be more open to more views.

Now, can we vote Pine?

Like this post is the main reason I want to sort Noodle as Town in spite of his really awful tunnel on me and the way that he's been hard defending WM all game for whatever reason.

Chronicle I'm having trouble sorting. I thought they were Town mainly because I didn't think a pure newbie would be able to fake the play they've been showing but it looks like they are actually more experienced than I thought and the way they came in and chainsawed for Noodle then postures on their Noodle read just reeks to me and 661 comes across as basically fake.

Src I've been sorting as Town mainly because I just don't think scum would be dumb enough to play the way he's been playing but his response to the claim and that vote on Noodle has really undone any reason I had to have him at a townlean.

pedit lemme read

[nancy]

Hm yeah the emotion there is much more real than what I'm seeing here.

pedti uhh

[nancy]

Calling it now. Loopdan and Noodles.

Why Loopdan?

[nancy]

The thought process that produces that post isn't a town thought process, imo. Do you disagree?

Not entirely but I don't see it as a scumslip either.

pedit agree on the Pine push from Noodle, that was one of the main reasons I wanted to sort him as Town. What do you think about Drixx's point wrt 838?

[nancy]

Hmmmm.

VOTE: Drixx

Putting my vote here for now and I want to hear from the rest of the table in depth before we lock anything in.

[nancy]

Void if Drixx is Town then where do we look?

[nancy]

No kill is suboptimal, they wouldn't do it. The problem in this thinking though is that there's no chance of me being scum regardless of what happens tonight.

[nancy]

I appreciate the irony in me saying that they wouldn't do it because it's suboptimal

[nancy]

Make a detailed case on Noodle and Loopdan Drixx and I'll listen. I'm not conf!biased here.

Would be good if you made your towncase on Chronicle as well.

[nancy]

1)It's not scumy to state a fact. If you think you see a crumb or someone softening a pr, you don't announce it out loud as town.
2)The only way you are confirmed town is if tracker dies tonight.

You certainly do if you are PR and the only other PR has claimed. I am confirmed Town by the lack of a CC. Pretty simple.

Drixx, do you now think that Src is also scumslipping?

[nancy]

3)A policy lynch doesn't care what your alignment is. It's lynching anti town players.
4) If you are town bp you killed tracker.

Is lynching an uncounterclaimed PR not anti-town? Should we then lynch policy lynch you? Which do you think is more valuable to Town, a conf clear for LyLo or a PR that may or may not provide an inno/guilty at some point before dying? You're completely fine to argue that my play is suboptimal. Suboptimal play =/= scum or PL.

[nancy]

Alright. And would you care to correct him as IC that I am conf!town by virtue of not having been CC'd?

[nancy]

His soft was part of what instigated my claim, yes. Because at the time I couldn't see the scenario of him being Town and softing like that. Loopdan pointed out to the contrary, although he has yet to back up his assertions.

Noodle has since responded in a way that clearly demonstrates he is not doc. If I wanted to point out a doc soft before getting lynched in that way then I would have done it in twilight or been far more subtle about it than I was.

What's your angle here, Src?

[nancy]

I think we have been clear we don't want a doc cc.

Void has already made it plain that CCing here is optimal and Drixx has more or less backed him up on that if I'm not mistaken.

[nancy]

Alright. And would you care to correct him as IC that I am conf!town by virtue of not having been CC'd?

i don't understand why you need to do this, or why anyone is still pushing your lynch

which strongly susggests loopscum and noodlescum

Why does it strongly suggest that? Why is Src then not scum also?

[nancy]

You are taking it literally. I even said policy lynches don't happen. For that very reason, no town wants to lynch town. Calling you a PL is calling you anti town. Not saying I want you dead.

I get that you aren't pushing for a PL, I'm just arguing against your point because I don't think it's good. Anti-town play should not warrant a PL.

[nancy]

My angle is you played bad and now you are trying to justify it. After the fact that you said you are here to teach. You should not be teaching this play.

I accept your point. I'm also nancy.

[nancy]

My comments wrt you pushing for my lynch are moreso with the way you've been arguing that I'm not conf!town which is essentially an oblique way of supporting my lynch without seeming to.

[nancy]

Like, I don't get how you've come to conclusion that I'm 85-90% Town and not 100%. What is the logic there?

He's not voting me, no.

[nancy]

That's true, Town should never lie. I have not been a shining example of that.

[nancy]

Like I really hope you are having fun here WM because it kinda feels like most everything is going a little over your head at the moment and I want you to feel engaged and able to contribute but I'm not sure how to go about making that happen exactly right now. Would you like to talk to me about your reads?

[nancy]

Like for instance what do you think about Noodle's treatment of your slot over the course of the Day?

[nancy]

You have already proven yourself as a liar. Hard to trust liars.
Another tip. Town should never lie.

Just ftr your read on my alignment should have nothing to do with my content specifically but simply with the fact that no one has counterclaimed me. You may not trust me but no one has counterclaimed and that can only mean one thing at this point: there is no one to counterclaim (except scum, who won't).

[nancy]

@nancy-- We need to talk in post-game about how you played day1. This was far from optimal.

Looking forward to it

[nancy]

Wait then what were you agreeing with? You agreed then forgot all about it 2 pages later? o.O

[nancy]

You have (expired on 2017-04-11 09:20:00) to discuss and decide on a lynch.

Whomever is Town in this joint should make themselves blatantly obvious please before deadline.

Noodle: elaborate on the things that I've asked for elaboration on.

Loopdan: contribute things, give reads and reasoning please. You've not really done anything all game except ask questions.

Drixx: as already requested.

Chronicle: re-evaluate based on the current gamestate please.

Tes: reads and thoughts in detail please. I have almost no content from you and while I'd very much like to lock you in as Town I simply cannot unless you give me something.

Src: a little more elaboration than <120 characters per post would go a long way to helping sort you.

WM: would love to hear your thoughts on Noodle and anything else you feel like talking about. An updated readslist would be good.


Like, almost no one has given any comprehensive reads for the majority of this game and that really needs to not be the case at this point.

[nancy]

Mini ♥

nancy ♥