Mini 1894: DBZ Abridged Mafia - Arrival To Namek (Game Over)

[Tywin Lannister]

Albert, massclaim?

Clumsy, it has to do with my role and what I can do with it. I have other minor observations, those will only be potentially relevant after masssclaim.

It's a

bit

of a gamble, but I think we still come out ahead in the worst case.

Assuming this is true, and I don't necessarily have a reason to believe otherwise, is it worth outing the vigi to scum just for you to use a role the rest of town don't know anything about? If you got NK'd, then what? Vigi is dead too, and any other town PRs. Then it's a bunch of VT claims left trying to choose the right person in a gamble. Idk if this is a good idea on D2

[Tywin Lannister]

Especially with mod giving scum fake claims.

[Tywin Lannister]

vote: abr

Wtf is this for? This a serious vote?

[Tywin Lannister]

VOTE: Alisae

Why?

[Tywin Lannister]

rip.
Good shot.
btw I'm just wondering who has the 4-star Dragonball?

Why rge 4-star in particular?

Also

VOTE: Socrates

Why?

[Tywin Lannister]

VOTE: Desperado
LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Annnnnd... Why?

Also, what are your updated reads? Do you still think I'm scum? Still think Majiffy is your strongest TR? Anything to say about your hard defense of him in the 1v1?

[Tywin Lannister]

@Tywin:

Because by the end of the previous day I had deduced it was either Maria + Clumsy OR Majiffy + Socrates, and with Maria flipping Town and Majiffy flipping scum I'm left with no choice but to go for the one I most associated with Majiffy in my mind.

I'm not disagreeing. I just wanted to know your thoughts on it. IMO, the two with the most association is Socrates and Alisae. The thing is, I'm not sure that scum would hard buddy so much in the game thread. Scum usually avoid each other like the plague and give vague reads on each other, not strong defenses of their buddies. Socrates fits the right association more than Alisae just based on my gut, but I wonder if it was scum buddying a conf biased townie? Alisae more buddied Majiffy while Majiffy didn't return the favor. Socrates had mutual buddying between him/Majiffy.

Anyways, this may be right, but I doubt they're both scum, and if I look at it as if I was scum in their shoes, I'd have played it exactly like Not Chara did. That's why I suspect them.

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin why aren't you voting right now?

I'm waiting for NC to respond, among others. I don't like throwing my vote around without weight behind it.

[Tywin Lannister]

Vifam and NC both haven't posted yet.

[Tywin Lannister]

Plus with Socrates wanting a mass claim, he could be a legit PR. I guess it wouldn't matter to put him at L1 thoufh after he claimed he's one already. He also could want it to get the vigi to claim. Not sure, but I'm second guessing my original SR on him.

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin why aren't you voting right now?

I'm waiting for NC to respond, among others. I don't like throwing my vote around without weight behind it.

what? you spent the majority of d1 pushing majiffy and then linking him to Ali and Socrates. why do you need anyone's response to vote?

My win con is to find and lynch scum, not go on a witch hunt of whoever was wrong on D1 after I was proven right. I seriously doubt that both Alisae and Socrates are scum, and I have doubts about either leitimately being scum here. It's too easy, just like how easy it was to lynch Maria.

I made plenty of pre-flip associations if/when Majiffy flipped scum, but that doesn't mean they're right. Why would scum buddy each other in the thread? It makes no sense. What does make sense is scum buddied townies that were already conf biased into thinking I was scum. Being wrong about me/Majiffy doesn't make them scum, and the most likely play scum made was to do what Not Chara (and you desperado) did and stay on the sideline of the 1v1 of me/Majiffy.

Smart scum don't buddy in the thread like Socrates/Ali did when they took majiffy's side, and nobody in this game is bad or new. All the players are high quality, which means thinking they'd make the obvious bad scum plays is a fallacy. Majiffy's play was even pretty damn good. I just recognized the tactics used, but they are great tactics regardless.


Also, why are you pushing me to vote? There's 13 days left til deadline, and I want to vote scum over town. Why are you voting ABR? He's pretty damn townie to me.

[Tywin Lannister]

I didn't have to "say it". It was implicitly understood. Even if it wasn't, it still is how I thought and had it noted in my text file anyway.

@ABR/Almost: I don't remember which post, but I'm pretty sure I did read Almost say this on D1. He wanted Maria over anyone, but he did say he'd move to Majiff/Socrates if Maria doesn't go through. I don't remember his exact words though, but that was my understanding of it.

[Tywin Lannister]

My current lynch pool is as follows:

Not Chara
Vifam
Desperado
Socrates
Alisae

Socrates/Alisae being lower on the totem pole due to me thinking they'd not hard defend their scum buddy. More likely is scum stayed on sideline. IMO, NC and Desperado fit the bill here. Zefiend also wanted Majiffy lynched, so I think he's town. Almost/ABR both TR me and kind of ignored Majiffy, but I know Almost was SRing him. ABR was hard defending me when Majiffy made a push. Clumsy SR me and TR Majiffy, so they're a slight SR still, but they got way too close to being lynched for me to believe they're scum.

So this still leaves Not Chara and Desperado. NC was universally TR, left alone by everyone, and would not comment on the 1v1 between me/Majiffy. Rather than even giving any real reads, they said they would ISO us both. Never happened of course, but NC did state I was looking scummy. They weren't voting Maria, but said clearly they'd join if needed. Obviously, it wasn't needed.

Desperado was also on the sidelines, didn't comment much about Majiffy, but said we were both town. Voting ABR here looks weird too, and there's no comment on Majiffy flipping, updated reads, etc. Even questions why I'm not hard pushing Alisae/Socrates yet.

Vifam is just a lurker that gives no content, but never gets SR for it. I don't have anything to add here, because they've not done much. They did sort of question the Maria wagon though.

None have a strong case, but NC/Desperado looks better to me than Ali/Socrates right now, and if I had to pick between them, I'd say Alisae was the scum buddy. He's too universally TR for my taste, and no comment on the Majiffy flip, their hard defense of Majiffy, etc. Even their latest vote looks weird, especially since it gave no reads or reason to vote there. If Ali flipped scum, desperado is town.

Anyway, that's how I see it. NC is my top candidate until they give some thoughts. Will decide after that.

[Tywin Lannister]

Then it goes w/o saying that scum got it and you didn't think they'll claim, did you? In other words, your question smells. It seems like posturing for Town cred.

Oh you don't like it? WELL THAT'S TOO FUCKING BAD HUH?

Why rge 4-star in particular?

I gave my 4-star ball to Imperium.

why would you give imperium a ball when they were either scum or a high probability NK target

Because I trusted them? I wasn't thinking of nightkills or anything I just wanted to get rid of something I had no interested in using.

I mean... You essentially just handed them off to scum then. This makes no sense to pass them, especially with just one. You knew you'd not be NK'd, so why would you do it? It just helped scum.

[Tywin Lannister]

I mean... You essentially just handed them off to scum then. This makes no sense to pass them, especially with just one. You knew you'd not be NK'd, so why would you do it? It just helped scum.

I really didn't think when passing the ball, I just wanted to get rid of it and give it to someone I trusted I'm super sorry ;~;
Wait.
I KNEW I wouldn't be NK'd?
How could I possibly KNOW that?
FUCKING JESUS TYWIN!
ARE MY READS REALLY THAT BAD?

Relax. It was just my assumption. I didn't think I'd be NK'd either, mainly because I was a mislynch candidate if Majiffy wasn't NK'd. Just based on who claimed what and which players looked the most town, I figured only a select few players would be NK targets. It is what it is, not based on your reads or anything.

[Tywin Lannister]

@Almost: do you think it likely that Socrates would attach himself to his scum buddy majiffy's hip, or is it more likely that scum stayed away from them entirely and let town go through with the Maria mislynch? Socrates fits the first option. Desp/NC fit the second. Do you remember any games where scum buddied this hard on D1? I can't, because it's usually a bad move. That's how you caught Nero last game, but he wasn't so strongly attached to his buddies as Socrates possibly was here. It just looks like a red herring to me.

@Desperado; why do you think ABR is scum? Anything to add?

[Tywin Lannister]

and me pressuring you to vote someone has nothing to do with the deadline and everything to do with your entire d1 play revolving around majiffy flipping scum, then majiffy flipping scum and you not following through on any of that

He did flip scum, and my entire D1 play was to get him to flip. The things after that aren't so solid. I was almost certain of Majiffy being scum, but I don't have the same certainty with anyone else. Not yet anyways. I was tunneled on Majiffy, and even though others accused me of tunneling D1, I was confident I was tunneling scum. Idk about anyone else. We may need to flip Socrates no matter what, but I need to reread and see what exactly happened.

You still haven't answered my question about why you're voting ABR or if you have anything else to add? Your posts look like you're either trying to shade me specifically, or you're hoping to push me in a direction that you aren't taking yourself. What's the deal with that? Why are you worried about if I follow through with my pre-flip associations or not after my original SR proved to be correct? Am I not allowed to reevaluate after every flip? I'm curious why you haven't. What exactly make you think ABR is scum?

[Tywin Lannister]

Just read Socrates' posts. I'm smh right now at the claim, since I come from the thought that nobody with that role should absolutely ever claim, and I also dislike mass claims as a whole, but if others agree, I'm fine with it. Scum already have their top NK target now, and if Socrates somehow survived a night or two, he's certainly scum. He know this so wouldn't claim Doc if he was scum. Even a single night not being NK'd now looks insanely suspicious.

So honestly Socrates, what you did was paint a target on your back no matter if you told the truth or not. Scum can never leave a doc alive, so you're toast tonight. If you aren't NK'd it almost certainly means you fake claimed. So you're lynched tomorrow. Regardless, you're now toast.

That being said, I still want Desp or NC, and since Almost says NC is super town, Desp is my next choice.

[Tywin Lannister]

Socrates: here's what you didn't think about.

1. You claimed doc so hello, goodbye, today is your last day alive.

2. Tomorrow night, if everyone mass claims, vigi is toast. Hello, goodbye vigi.

3. Next night.. Any other PRs, peace out you're dead.

4. It's not a shit ton of VT claims and no way to CC. No way to stop an NK. No way to kill scum outside of a lynch, which as we've already seen from D1, is far more likely to be on town than ever land on scum.

5. Lylo happens with two of the least townie players with the worst reads, and 1-2 scum with all the power. Add in dragon balls and that's game over folks.

6. Mass claims are always bad without knowing the setup.

[Tywin Lannister]

EBWOP: 4. It's now**

[Tywin Lannister]

Anyway, Socrates can't be lynched now, so move along folks. If he survives the night, then it gets suspicious, but scum would have to be huge gamblers to leave a doc alive. Could also be Mafia doc, but seriously, after a night phase or two where Socrates isn't NK,d, he gets the rope and flips scum. So even if anyone SRs him now, wait a day or two and go for him then if he isn't NK'd. Scum can't ever leave a doc alive and win, so he's toast.

[Tywin Lannister]

Socrates, i fail to see any correlation between your "Thing I Can Do" post and your doctor place. the post that you said outed yourself so badly looks like something related to the dragonballs, not to being a doctor.

This is how I read it too, and I only read it after Socrates brought it up. I think it's a case of overthinking and being self critical. I certainly wouldn't have remembered it without Socrates bringing it up, and if scum had remembered, then he'd have been NKd already.

[Tywin Lannister]

Socrates, the vigi shouldn't claim now that the doc did. There's still a chance you're scum and fake claiming doc to sacrifice yourself to out the vigi to scum.

The optimal move for the vigi is to now stay silent and let you get NK'd. You're now the top target if your claim is true. If it isn't true, then vigi claiming only helps scum here. There's in no way any cause for vigi to claim now. If you're really a town doc, then you're death tonight saves the vigi from a random NK. If you lied, then you'll flip scum in tomorrow's lynch, and your mass claim hope was a shot in the dark gamble to hopefully out the town PRs.

No, I don't think the vigi should say a word. Can you argue differently? If you're really the doc, then vigi claiming only protects him for ONE night. If he doesn't claim, then you'll die and still protect him for one night. Same thing. Big difference for towns chances.

Vigi: don't claim

[Tywin Lannister]

Socrates' last few posts all reek of role fishing. He may legit be one who likes to sacrifice himself, but that may be for scum over town. Scum gain WAAAY more in a mass claim (with their fake claim roles to boot) over anything town gets. Town gets a doc to protect for a single night, assuming scum don't have a roleblocker and he's even telling the truth. Scum get all the town PRs for no legitimate reason at all. Essentially, it's a bad, bad move for town to claim here.

NC pointing that out gives them TCred in my view. I didn't think about it that way until they mentioned it. I also like this Clumsy argument tbh. I didn't think about the hammer snipe either. This is why I wanted NC to post before I voted. Desperado takes my top scum spot now.

[Tywin Lannister]

Frankly, this entire mass claim argument borders on helping scum over town too. Mass claims shouldn't be done by a town doc claiming first. Legitimately, all a mass claim does is narrow everything down the the VTs, which are almost certainly the majority of players. Scum get the PR targets handed to them. Town get... A vigi to stay alive for one night? That's equal to a single kill. It makes absolutely no sense. Doc protecting doesn't work when the doc dies tonight. Vigi being outted only works when the doc isn't, and mass claims only work within known set ups or during desperate situations like mylo. It's... D2... With one scum down.

[Tywin Lannister]

Socrates' last few posts all reek of role fishing. He may legit be one who likes to sacrifice himself, but that may be for scum over town. Scum gain WAAAY more in a mass claim (with their fake claim roles to boot) over anything town gets. Town gets a doc to protect for a single night, assuming scum don't have a roleblocker and he's even telling the truth. Scum get all the town PRs for no legitimate reason at all. Essentially, it's a bad, bad move for town to claim here.

NC pointing that out gives them TCred in my view. I didn't think about it that way until they mentioned it. I also like this Clumsy argument tbh. I didn't think about the hammer snipe either. This is why I wanted NC to post before I voted. Desperado takes my top scum spot now.

*sigh*

At least acknowledge the argument for why town benefits from massclaiming, even if you disagree with it.

Read up. I looked into it. Town get nothing. Vigi gets one free night before being NK'd. That's it. If scum have a roleblocker, vigi gets zero shots and all town PRs outted for no reason.

I don't understand what argument you're trying to make with it?

[Tywin Lannister]

If the goal was to protect the vigi for one night, which seems to be what it is, then you've done that job by claiming Socrates. You're certain to be the NK and so vigi is saved for at least one night. Your goal for the mass claim is achieved.

If the goal was to narrow down the lynch pool to VTs, then it doesn't do much. Most of town are VTs and scum will claim it too. I guess the vigi could shoot at the scummiest VT, but that's no difference than no mass claim. Mass claims are more for very large role madness games with few VTs, known set ups, or desperate mylo situations. I don't know any argument for them otherwise that helps town more than scum, especially since we know scum have fake claims handed to them by the mod.

If the goal is to make scum work harder by setting up narratives they can't change, then a mass claim fails anyways. Scum have it easier when they have a roadmap handed to them, and narratives aren't ever remembered or enforced by town. You're all forgetting what happened yesterday. I was just ignored and called a drug addict for calling Majiffy scum, and I kept sayin the exact narrative he was using. Town as a whole aren't smart enough for advanced things that a mass claim requires IMO. Mob mentality rules.

Let me put it this way: when someone lies, who enforced it? When people naked vote, who enforced it? When someone acts scummy, who called them out? Not all of you, that's for sure. People ignore things, miss them, or just plainly don't care all the time. Vifam hasn't said a word since D2 started and nobody cares. Desperado is voting ABR without reason and nobody cares. I ask him why and he ignored it, and nobody cares. Mass claims happen, scum are 'supposedly' stuck in a specific narrative, but who will care when they switch stances? Nobody

[Tywin Lannister]

So that's my $0.02 on mass claiming, but I'm not the only player. Maybe others like it, idk.

As for the rest, I like the hammer snipe thought NC had on clumsy. I also think desperado needs sorting by everyone. Socrates is off the table for Almost and others, so let's see where they move.

[Tywin Lannister]

Of course the scummiest player would be in favor of it after all the ways it hurts town were explained... Lol.

Socrates, you may have inadvertently caught scum.

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin, every time you say I

have

to die tonight, the easier you are making it for scum to not bother killing me because they could mislynch me tomorrow instead.

I'm not asking you to change your mind, but you should backburner that thought for now.

It's not even tonight, but you won't make it to Lylo before being lynched or NK'd, regardless of alignment. If scum willingly ignored you in hopes you get mislynched latwr, then they gamble on you blocking them, and it's not hard to figure out who is probably the next NK target(s). Yes, they could ignore you, but for how long? If too long, then you may not be town. That's my point, and it's more in your favor than otherwise. If town, I don't see you lasting long. Scum fish for the doctor NK from D1 on, so giving them the target means you'll almost certainly die. There's only so much scum can really gamble on and be clever with before just hurting themselves.

Anyways, I'm not too worried about it. My point was said in favor of you being town, since you'd know how suspicious it is to not be NK'd as scum.

[Tywin Lannister]

i'm probing his thought process

you applied the word "case" so yes i'm going to split hairs

Why is it difficult for you to understand? My pre-flips weren't solid, but Majiffy was. Post-flip, I thought about it and tried putting myself in scum's shoes. Majiffy didn't expect to get shot surely, and neither did the other scum, but it's still a bad play for scum to buddy each other. Alisae/Socrates would have to have 100% confidence that neither they or Majiffy was getting lynched anytime soon to feel confident in buddying so hard. They'll all guilty by association after any of them flips. My other thought was that it's entirely possible for scum to have buddied conf biased town, and since nobody was listening to me, it's pretty obvious that town was conf biased. It doesn't take much to butter up a player who already holds the view scum want them to pursue. It's just a slight nudge to get them to do things scum want. Majiffy asked Socratesnto vote me at the end of the day phase, so Socrates obliged. Do you not see that as odd if they were both scum? They'd have just said it on scum chat if there's daychat, and if not, then interacting too closely looks bad down the line during VCA.

Also, Socrates now claims Doctor, so why would I pursue him? He's unlynchible now. His alignment will sort itself out either tonight or a few day phases from now. He won't make it past Lylo. So this leaves Alisae. Do you SR Alisae? If not, why? You're voting ABR, not either Ali or Socrates. Why? You want to push me on two players you aren't voting. Why?

And again, why are you voting ABR? Stop ignoring me.

[Tywin Lannister]

Desperado sure is interested in why I'm not voting two players he refuses to vote himself, while ignoring every single question I send his way. So he gets answers from me and ignores everything else that's said. Sounds familiar.

Interesting stances he's taken here. They're all highly contrary to what normal town would do IMO. He's interested in me over anyone else. He ignores questions he doesn't want to answer. He wants a mass claim after its explained why mass claim is bad for town, while he tried trivializing it as if it's more than okay to lose town PRs (ok for scum sure). He hasn't answered why he voted ABR, hasn't switched any of his reads post flip, doesn't ask any questions from his actual 'SR' and he prods me to vote past SRs over new ones while not actually SRing those players himself. It's just weird. I don't like it and think there's something off. Oh, and he got upset when I said I was waiting for NC to respond before voting them. Why?

So I now TR NC after seeing things I liked, and my sideliner stance on them looks to have been better in thought than practice. Their other posts are good, and with Almost saying they're town, then I'm content to leave NC off the lynch pool today. Desperado on the other hand was a sideliner without good posts to back them up. I want answers from Clumsy sniping the hammer spot and being nervous with NC taking it. I want answers from Alisae on any updated reads aside from desperado. Almost surely will have a new SR after the Socrates doc claim. Zefiend needs to give a reason for his Alisae vote Oh, and Vifam needs to post too. Etcetera

For now though: VOTE: desperado I could be convinced to switch to Vifam, Clumsy (maybe), or Alisae. The rest are TRs or too close to it for me to go there. These are my 4 candidates. NC gets a pass for at least one more day due to recent posts. My real SR on them was based on staying away from the 1v1 over anything else. Alisae would potentially be a better info flip if we went the association route.

[Tywin Lannister]

TL;DR: desperado, clumsy, Vifam, or Alisae. Someone else make a case if they have one.

[Tywin Lannister]

I'm confused as to what exactly changed your mind in desperado's ISO, because I read it exactly how you originally did. Idk if ABR is scum or town, but he's not the only one left if so. I also still have not gotten answers from desperado at any point, which you'd not see in just his ISO. He ignores questions directed toward him, so that's a problem. He could fix it anytime, but I'm betting he won't. So now that you claim to understand him, where exactly is he coming from? You can't just say that and not explain it.

Speaking of which...

Who did ABR spend defending and who did he spend attacking? He spent it defending me too technically, although he ignored Majiffy. So which scum did he defend? I know of only one, and ABR just ignored him and said he 'didn't care at all' about the 1v1. That's a bit different than defending scum. If you're found that route, Alisae is the best choice. He definitely defended scum. The rest either ignored scum or slightly defended them. That's everyone in the game really.

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin: have you forgotten ABR asserting time and again that you vs. Majiffy was TvT, and separately, how town Majiffy was?

No, not entirely, but that's better than Alisae constantly saying it was SvT, with me being scum and absolutely zero reasons given as to why Majiffy was town. He went full on chainsaw defense of Majiffy, and after reading zefiends post saying I'm overthinking WIFOM here, I agree. If desperado is the red herring, then Alisae is scum. Socrates looks town, and the one BIG difference between Alisae and Socrates pertaining to the Majiffy buddying is Majiffy NEVER interacted with Alisae. At no point did he even mention him, let alone give Alisae a reason to hard defend him like they did on D1. Alisae has never asked Majiffy questions to sort him either, which is what town Ali would've done. I was overthinking this pretty badly and not looking at the obviousness of it.

Alisae is scum. I'd rather flip Ali and worry about someone like ABR/desperado later. Ali seems the obvious choice after you take WIFOM out of it.

VOTE: Alisae

[Tywin Lannister]

Sometimes I need to be told I'm overthinking or looking at the wrong thing, which is what Zefiend did. Desperado made it look like it was to shade me, which I don't like, but I think flipping Ali gives more info than Desp does, even if they're both scum (probably aren't though). Ali is the logical lynch based on associations, and they never addressed why they hard defended Majiffy, why they hard SR me, why they joined into the mock/insult party of me rather than answer questions or discuss the me/Majiffy thing logically without bias, etc.

NC, the difference between say.. Your approach to the 1v1 and Alisae's is that you wanted to read up on both and assess the arguments presented rather than just make a pick and hard defend it without cause. You went into it without any set conclusions or bias. Ali did not. They wouldn't even discuss it with me, and they joined into mocking me over actually trying to figure out if I'm scum or not.

So yeah, Ali is my lynch choice after rethinking.

[Tywin Lannister]

ABR: even if Desp is scum, why would Ali asking about a dragon ball be such a sure sign of town? Clumsy stole the lynch, not Ali. Personally, I'm ok with either of them, but Desp is a weaker case per say. I'm not averse to flipping him though, and really, NC's vote on you and ignoring the things Desp has done looks weird too. Of all the possible scum candidates, you (ABR) seems like the worst choice. Ecen considering you ignoring Majiffy, Ali did it worse by far, so NC using that reasoning to vote you looks bad.

[Tywin Lannister]

hey guyz
my name is alisae
I am ATTACKING Tywin because he is ATTACKING MAJIFFY
Guyz. I am totally 100% considering Tywin because he is getting into conflict with someone who I am TRing.
I am 100% CHAINSAWING Majiffy. By ATTACKING Tywin.

"I know buzzwords but not what they are used for."

Tywin, really? This is shit scum would say? This? Or are you blinded by your need to go after your enemies after you caught a break?

Not really blinded, because I wrote them off as town immediately after, but it is based on WIFOM. Even your defense of Ali is WIFOM based. I'll reread and catch up when I have time. At work atm.

[Tywin Lannister]

NC: I wrote multiple posts about desperado already. So maybe neither of us are reading. I'm not caught up on the past two pages since its been moving fast and don't have the time right now, but no case is solid right now. I just question why Desp/Ali is such a contentious issue here. You and ABR are both hard defending one of them pretty strongly. They could just answer questions themselves too. None of us know whose the scum here without actually being scum, so why are you both so sure?

Ali hard defended Majiffy. Desperado sat on the sidelines calling it TvT. NCs case on ABR is him saying it was TvT as well. Literally all these arguments apply to everyone involved.

[Tywin Lannister]

Let me put this in a new way for both of you:

Assume there is obviously more than 2 scum. Majiff is gone, so there's at least two left. Maybe 3 or a traitor left, but let's assume 2 more for now.

So regardless of if ABR is scum or Desp is scum, whose the third scum? Whose their buddy(s)?

[Tywin Lannister]

Gimme an hour and I'll catch up on my lunch break, but I haven't seen any arguments that aren't just entirely based on WIFOM. I also dislike NC saying 'I'm keeping that to myself' looks odd. If you're town and get NK'd NC, what did that solve? Your reads don't have to be right to give them. If you have associations if ABR flipped scum, giving them isn't detrimental even if they're wrong. Also, I will be reading everything, so claiming it's a waste of time seems counterproductive.

[Tywin Lannister]

ABR: even if Desp is scum, why would Ali asking about a dragon ball be such a sure sign of town? Clumsy stole the lynch, not Ali. Personally, I'm ok with either of them, but Desp is a weaker case per say. I'm not averse to flipping him though, and really, NC's vote on you and ignoring the things Desp has done looks weird too. Of all the possible scum candidates, you (ABR) seems like the worst choice. Ecen considering you ignoring Majiffy, Ali did it worse by far, so NC using that reasoning to vote you looks bad.

have you been reading my posts today? what's so towny about ABR that makes him the worst choice? the difference between ABR and Alisae is that Alisae hasn't been making manipulative post after manipulative post. i've asked you directly about Alisae on Majiffy as well, and you haven't answered me yet.

and i asked you for a Desperado case. what has he done?

Why do you keep asking me to do the work here? I've posted plenty about both Ali and Desp. Did you forget the entirety of how D1 played out?

NC, you're basically calling Desp and Ali town and ABR scum, while not saying whose his partner and giving reasons that frankly mirror Ali as well. Manipulative posts aside, he did hard defend Majiffy. Desp said we were TvT a few times. Yet ABR is scum for this? You say he's not getting reads and just pushing wagons, which is true, but did you count all the naked votes from Desp and Ali? They never tried getting reads either. Nothing from them. So you're playing it as if they're fine to do these things but ABR is scum for it. It's hypocritical and looks weird to me. You can't call one person scum and the others town for all doing the same things. The only real difference is 'manipulative' posts as you call it.

[Tywin Lannister]

Why would I be kidding? Explain what I said that's wrong. You called me as Majiffy TvT. You voted Maria without reason and never moved. You immediately voted ABR without reason and haven't moved. When I ask for reasons why, you ignore me and get uppity about why I wasn't voting Socrates or Alisae, as if I'm required to do so for some reason. You're entire game has been anti-town at best. Who have you sorted and when did you ask questions to figure out if your reads are correct? What cases have you ever brought up against either Maria or ABR? Truth is, you haven't done anything at all. The only difference between you and Vifam are you post more, but everything you post is trash. Kind of like the last two. 'Lol got to be kidding me bro lol' and 'you sure you remember who I am?' about sums up you're entire game. You've done nothing to help find scum and your votes are always naked without reason or thought. You helped lynch an obvious townie yesterday while doing nothing to provide a reason why you SR her. You now vote ABR while doing nothing to provide reasons why you SR him.

I'm not swayed by NC and the crazy defense of Desp just makes me think their aligned. If Desp flips scum, NC is next. If not, then maybe we go for ABR, but I'm not swayed by any of the current arguments. They're all hypocritical, full of WIFOM, and don't actually give reasons why Desp is town over ABR. Not calling out Desp while calling out ABR looks hypocritical to me.

[Tywin Lannister]

My last post was directed toward Desp, not you NC. You've provided reasons for SRing ABR. What bothers me is that Desp hasn't (although he can sheep yours now), but you write him off as town. I know you looked at him earlier and saw something you liked, but I don't know what that is. VCA shows him voting Maria, and now ABR. Thats two votes all game. Surely, he must be super town to not even try to figure out whose scum or not, right? His D2 play consisted of probing my thoughts, but I give them pretty readily. His D1 consisted of voting Maria and calling the 1v1 TvT. So he's wrong about two reads at least, so what makes him think ABR is correct? What case did he bring up before you chimed in NC? I didn't see one. He laughs it off over discussing it, which ironically, Majiffy did too.

ABR isn't scummy enough for me to want to lynch him yet, which is why I asked who your other SR(s) are. You won't give them, but I'm not lynching ABR today if it's just you and Desp saying these things. He never was in my D2 scum pool, and the reasons given to lynch him are about equal to the case on Desp. You haven't provided real reasons for why Desp has played the way he has either. Essentially, you're saying ABR is manipulative and Desp isn't. That's a fallacy. ABR is obvious about it true, but he never pretended to do anything other than that. Desp has skated by doing scummy things and not doing townie things, and all I have to go on for the contrary is your claimed ISO that says you completely understand where Desp comes from. Interesting to note, you never provided any reasons why you believe that, which isn't like you. You're usually very good at giving reasons for things..

As for whose a better lynch, Desp gives more info, which you even admitted yourself. If others want to flip ABR and he comes up as scum, then I'll listen to any further reads, but if he flips town, I'm gunning for Desp/NC, which is what my original read was anyway. At least one is scum if ABR is town. The rest of the cast isn't nearly as interesting to me from a scum viewpoint, and Vifam is the only true question mark for me on D2. The rest aren't in my personal lynch pool for D2, so I won't bother talking about them further.

So I mentioned my lynch pool pages ago, which was Alisar, Desperado, Clumsy, or Vifam. Ive dropped you NC because of posts I agreed with, but you're still a question mark too, and I still question the hard defense of desperado. Why doesn't he? You're going all out for him, but if he's town, shouldn't he wonder why? Scum buddy town all the time, and hard defending a possible lynch player isn't out of the question for scum to do, because it gives them huge TCred after the inevitable lynch. So why isn't he questioning anything? Doesn't he wonder at all about whose scum? He certainly never says it.

Since the focus is either ABR or Desperado, I'd rather flip Desp. I don't see enough to lynch ABR that is any worse than what Desp has/hasn't done. I can't pretend to say that one sideliner player who said TvT is any worse than another who said TvT. The real difference is ABR pushing harder on lynches without questions asked, but Desp just votes town, doesn't ever switch or question it, and let's town hang themselves. Frankly, the difference when really summed up is minimal. There's not a huge gap here that makes one obv scum and the other obv town, and that's what bothers me.

You both call Ali town, but one calls Desp scum and the other calls ABR scum for pushing Desp. Desp gives more info due to that alone. If Desp flips scum, ABR is cleared and NC is implicated. That's my opinion.

Now, could I be wrong? Yes. I'm not certain at all here compared to my stance on Majiffy. What I do know is that there are obviously two blocs here, and scum are on one of them. Does it truly matter which one is lynched? Vigi shoots the other if the first flips town. One town for one scum looks good to me. The only way this doesn't work is if ABR and NC are scum buddies. Completely possible with how good they are, but that's territory not worth looking at yet.

[Tywin Lannister]

Ali relax I'm not going to stay on you.

[Tywin Lannister]

I don't really understand your question AlisaE. You know, the R is next to the E, so maybe you really are AlisaR and just typo'd!

Oh and, yeah, I don't get what you're saying. The difference between you being his scum buddy or him being scum and buddying a townie to set up their lynch? Well, there's a difference in how YOU approached it. You buddied him. He didn't necessarily buddy you. That's the difference as I see it. Socrates was different too. Majiffy was pushing Socrates to vote me, talking about how town Socrates was, etc. His vote on Maria was entirely because 'Maria voted Socrstes' and STiLL none of you caught it. It was pretty bad, but that's the point. Socrates had Majiffy actively buddy him. Majiffy dos not so that with you Alisae.

[Tywin Lannister]

Apparently I'm dislexic and can't do Engrish, but you get the point. That there Engrish ain't too bad lemme tell ya

[Tywin Lannister]

Relax. I'm at work for another couple hours, but I'll reread and see where to vote after. I'm not staying on Ali.

[Tywin Lannister]

Do whatever you want Desperado. I'm just one vote. Why worry about what I think? Try to get your scum read lynched by building a case. Maria is gone, so try another. It's not D1 anymore and you already lynched one townie.

[Tywin Lannister]

Desperado's way of playing seems to be go after the insignificant part of any argument and then appeal to others in hopes that they'll do the work for him.

How about this.. Desp, you can have the Maria point back. You voted her with a reason. She was town, but you gave a reason. One point marked off the list. Now where's you're ABR case, and don't say NC said it already, because you voted ABR before NC. Do some work if you don't want me to think you're coasting scum. Make me think otherwise rather than appealing to others for them to save you. Majiffy did the same thing. I'm at least open to having a discussion, which is more than what I can say about Majiffy, and you're not doing it either.

Ali, why play mafia when you don't actually do anything? Where's your case? Which scum did you find? Stop mocking like a child and debate like an adult. The schtick gets old after a while. You mine as well not even post at all with what little you've said to find scum. It's all mocking posts.

[Tywin Lannister]

Posturing? And is this the way my brain works? Really? I ask for you to give a case on ABR and you respond like this. Since you refuse, I'm pretty certain it means you're scum. Basic things in Mafia like giving a case on a ST should be easy to do for town. Only scum seem to ever fail in doing so. This is simple stuff.

Regardless, you're scum. Have my vote. Do whatever you'd like, but since it isn't going to be a discussion from you, it doesn't matter. Not Chara can't save you forever.

VOTE: Desperado

[Tywin Lannister]

SR*

[Tywin Lannister]

Odd how all the scummy players use the same tactics. At least Majiffy did it well.

[Tywin Lannister]

The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them.

[Tywin Lannister]

I'm sorry I came across as insulting your intelligence day 1 Tywin, that not my intent. I do believe you need to work on your rhetorical skills, but you admitted to that yourself, so i wan't expecting you to get so angry about it. And then I got pissy about your response. That was childish of me.

I want mafia to be a respectful game, but I often fail to live up to my own standards. It's frustrating to recognize one's own hypocrisy.

Hey, don't worry about it. I honestly never take what's said in any game seriously. I just view it all as part of the game. I say plenty of things I don't actually mean while playing too, but it's not personal. It's just another way of playing. Plus, Mafia gets heated in every game lol. That's just how it plays out.

So yeah, don't worry about it. If said post-game, maybe I'd take it more seriously, but not during.

[Tywin Lannister]

anyway. all i found on Desperado for you was that he looked like he was coasting on day 1. i think i remember asking you to elaborate on that at some point, but i can't find it right now. what has the read so strong for you? you didn't sound very convinced at the tail-end of day 1, you just said he 'feels like he was coasting'.

I know I'm not Alisae, but honestly NC, doesn't he feel that way? A few posts up, you even pointed out some of what he's done D2. D1 was without pressure, so it was less magnified, but it still wasn't what most would consider scum hunting, sorting, etc. The difference between you and him is pretty extreme, and while some is just based on playstyle, some really isn't. I think everyone can at least agree that Desperado hasn't been trying his best to find scum and build a case on them. Isnt that a sign of coasting, or is the semantics of it more important? My general feel has always been that he's coasting and generally not doing much. Yes, he could point out a post or two that I missed, but he hasn't, and not even doing that is a coasting sign. Let's just say that if he is town, he isn't putting in much effort to help town win.

The problem is that he's active enough to where it isn't lurking, but his posts don't involve looking for scum, questioning reads, trying to get more accurate reads, etc. He voted Maria and was wrong, so wouldn't that make him update his reads? Now he votes ABR (before you) while giving no case at all. It was a naked vote. Any town with a real SR can give their case, regardless of it being good or bad. Refusing IMO always points to scum. It takes no effort to post thoughts on any player here. He doesn't need to pull out a spreadsheet and go over every post. All he had to do was say 'I don't like X, I don't like Y, they're scum because of X,y,z.' Not doing so in my view always means the player doesn't actually believe their SR and is faking it.

Anyway, why defend the guy so much? What did you see in the ISO that made him such a strong TR?

[Tywin Lannister]

Alisae, instead of making bad jokes, why not play the game? You can do both you know.

[Tywin Lannister]

The Desp claim here, along with Imerium's flip made a lightbulb turn on in my head.

Clumsy: what role did you claim when you were L1? You didn't say Namikian elite warrior. You just gave a nondescript VT claim. Please elaborate.

[Tywin Lannister]

With the precedent set by Imperium's flip and Clumsy's sort of nondescript VT claim, there are two possibilities here:

1: Desp is telling the entire truth, and even gave his full claim (mirroring Imperium's role), which means:
1a: further review of Clumsy's claim needs immediate investigation

Or

2: Desp copied Imperium's claim, but why would he when mod gives fake claims? It's a gamble. And still:
2a: further review of Clumsy's claim needs immediate investigation

Now I don't totally remember what exactly clumsy said, but I know it wasn't 'Namikian Elite Warrior' as his claim. I had to further question what exactly the PM said, and we all went with it. Regardless, since it wasn't Namikian Elite Warrior, it may mean it was fake.

Also, if Desp isn't scum, then whose that leave? I think we all believe Vifam is likely one of them, but whose the buddy? Either it's ABR, Zefiend, Alisae, or NC. Nobody thinks NC is scum, so it's ABR, Alisae, or Zefiend. ABR could be scum, but why isn't Zefiend questioned here? He did help call out Majiffy and defended me (when few others did so), but Zefiend went to the Maria wagon and refused to go back to Majiffy when I tried to rally Maria/him/etc into a counter-wagon. So that's a point in his favor and a point against it. He's also been MIA for most of the game, which isn't entirely like him based on previous town play, and almost every scum goes MIA for a while when they have nothing to really latch onto. Majiffy wasn't around much at all until I voted him, and interesting enough, he didn't care at all that Zefiend or NC was on his wagon previously. Even when Zefiend defended me and called majiffy's BS, he was entirely ignored by everyone. I'd say it all cancels each other out, but it's a point of reference that needs to be looked at in the future. I won't be lunching Zefiend today by any means though. I just think he needs to be looked at further if he's around in the late game. He's still a TR for me though.

If Desp isn't the lynch, I'd rather go on Vifam or Alisae. The ABR case is just as weak as Desp's tbh, and I don't see enough to justify lynching him over Vifam (for instance). I'd also go for Alisae over ABR, which I know others won't do. Alisae is TR by all, which isn't a good sign. Ali hasn't been playing his normal town game either. To spare the details since someone will point out some arbitrary point to claim I don't read, Alisae hasn't been looking for scum like his normal town game shows. He was hard in the defense of Majiffy, DID call me scum multiple times rather than this claimed TvT thing I see mentioned lately, and has not been legitimately questioning SRs like Ali always does as town. If we are going to lynch someone for coasting and being manupulative, Alisae is my choice. If it's meta reads (like Maria was), Alisae is my choice. If it's VCA, Alisae is my choice. If it's reads, Alisae is my choice. Etc etc Alisae is my choice.

So barring a Desp lynch, Alisae is who I want lynched. ABR may rightly be scum, but the case sucks and Ali has done all the same things, plus a few more. The hardest defender of Majiffy was Alisae, and the one to join in on Majiffy's mock/ignore/etc tactics against me has been Alisae. Let's not forget, Ali is more interested in making bad jokes over finding scum, and town Ali has always shown a different playstyle than that. Also, don't forget that I've hydra'd as scum with Alisae, and I see similarities. I mentioned that as early as the first 10 pages of D1, but nobody would listen (usual stuff). Too many people TR Ali and refuse to look at him, which I just don't like. If ABR is scum and Vifam is not, Ali is his partner. Even if ABR isn't scum, Ali has a great chance of still being scum. This is how I see it.

TL;DR: ABR is a bad gamble with a bad case, and a better case can be made for Alisae. Flipping then is less of a gamble IMO, and ABR can be looked at in the future. Vifam's eventual replacement also needs to be looked at. Clumsy needs reevaluating as well. The only reason I don't see clumsy as scum is they were the first real wagon and came damn close to being lynched. That alone is why I don't see it, but they need further review, and their claim needs some answering.

VOTE: Alisae. I feel better about this lynch anyways, although I inherently disagree with Desp's entire playstyle. I also think that even if ABR is scum (I have my doubts), I don't see either NC or Desp give alternatives. This is mine and I think it's legit. Vifam is the other and there's nothing to use for/against them, so mine as well flip the best association with scum.

[Tywin Lannister]

Desp did you read my post at all? Jesus, shut the fuck up. If you're town, you're anti-town af and makes me want to policy lynch you just so I don't have to read your whining. You didn't read a single thing I said if you think your post makes any sense regarding mine. Mine has nothing to do with you aside from either you copying Imperium's flip or not, and I moved my vote.

Ridiculous. Really tired of this guy, but I'd rather win than policy lynch anti-town VTs.

[Tywin Lannister]

did you forget Maria's VT flip, Tywin? it was a named side character as well.
and Clumsy clamed Moori.

No I didn't, but there's a general theme here. Maria's flip was set up by the mod to be a mislynch, but most VTs seem to have the same claim. Clumsy didn't read the entire claim from what I remember, just said VT and a few further flavor things when questioned.

Regardless, I'm not voting clumsy, but they need reevaluation. Yes, I read everything, and anything I don't remember, I say so. There's no reason to not look at clumsy further. It doesn't hurt at all, and them saying Moori could be town or scum based on Maria's flip. All it says is that Clumsy's claim looks less legit than Desp's does. Maria's claim was obviously a mislynch candidate if we went the flavor judging route, but if Desp and Impwrium have the same role names (and it's true), then it shows a commonality that Clumsy's didn't have.

@Desp: I don't read your insignificant posts when you give absolutely nothing to back it up. Saying scum are X town are y without any reason whatsoever shows you just throw names instead of real substance. There's nothing to take from it, so I don't care who you mention. Build a case or don't speak. You're anti-town af.

[Tywin Lannister]

Desp mine as well not exist. He's a vote and that's it. All I see him do is whine and ignore anything that doesn't mention his name. Really tired of it. Makes me want to policy lynch him and see what flips regardless, but I'd rather win and then never join another game with the guy. Super annoying, especially since he probably isn't scum doing real scum manipulation that's game related, which is what Majiffy did. Majiffy had a win con reason to post what he did. Desp does not. That's the last I'll say of him.

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin, you have a bad attitude right now and so does Desperado.

Sorry, I apologize. Good call. Desp, my bad. I'll be back later after a cigarette and some coffee. I'm like a cranky old man right now.

[Tywin Lannister]

IM TRYING SO HARD TO GET SCUM LYNCHED AND YOU DO THIS???

What do you think of their claim? I'm looking for an alternative to you and Desp, since even if one is scum, both aren't. That would be some hardcore scum theater bussing that, if it worked, would deserve a Grammy (Scummy) nomination.

So regardless, whether either one is scum, there's at least one more. Town could set up a vigi kill on someone too. If it's an SK, then town could force them to shoot whoever and if they don't, we know it's not a vigi. Just a thought.

So Vifam or Alisae seem the best candidates to me. You guys take your pick, but Ali has far more to look at than Vifam's couple of posts. Ali can at least respond, and worse comes to worse, vigi/SK can be forced to shoot Vifam. Unless you all have another option, this is my view.

The third option is lynch Desp or ABR and make vigi/SK shoot the other one if the first flips town. If either one of you are that sure about the other being scum, then a 1 for 1 trade is in town's best interest. I'd have done it against Majiffy.

[Tywin Lannister]

If Ali is scum, it's not with desperado. I have built hypothetical scum pairings.

Whose Ali's partner if they are scum? I don't think it's Desp either.

[Tywin Lannister]

mass claim continues to be the best option

At this point, I don't even care. Everyone left is too good to get a great SR on. Nobody left gives tells that we'd use to find regular scum.

So if the majority agrees, I'd go for it.

[Tywin Lannister]

We're not lynching alisae or vifam. Desperado is a no brainer lynch. I've played with desperado since his first games on the site. I know how he operates. He's the best lynch, point blank period.

The main two reasons not two are NC's hard defense and Desp's VT claim. If not for NC, Desp would've been strung up already. The question is why is NC hard defending for a player that hasn't themselves? If anyone really did that for me, I'd both be biased into TRing them and also suspicious af that they're buddying me. Regardless, NC has stuck their neck out for Desp, and either that means NC has some insanely strong read skills to basically call a null player confirmed, or NC is scum that is either buddying their partner or a townie they know will be lynched eventually. Idk about the rest, but I buddy a suspect townie all the time as scum, because I look great after they flip and was the only real defender. I do it as town too though, aka Maria.

What exactly in Desp's meta makes you so strongly believe scum? I realize it's hard to pinpoint (it's why I SR Alisae, but it's not easy to give exact details), but it's something. Anything is better than just saying he's scum. I'm not lynching you either, so Ali or Vifam are the alternatives to Desp. Someone's gotta get the rope, but I'd need more of a case on Desp than this.

I'm not lynching ABR for the fear that NC is scum, and while i cant get NC to flip with so many opposing it, i can help prevent a possible scum push on ABR. It's also entirely possible that NC is town with a great SR, but since i dont know either one, the best solution is to go after the third scum. Flips there give more info on Desp/NC/ABR and NKs (scum and vigi/sk) may also resolve the issue.

Point is, Im going the third option, which is to ignore the NC/Desp/ABR fight and lynch an unknown.

[Tywin Lannister]

Holy typo. 'Main two reasons to not lynch Desp are'

EBWOP

[Tywin Lannister]

And if NC is scum, chances of scum winning this game looks like 99% the way that you're all discounting him.

Me discounting NC? Not at all. I feel like I've been one of the few who even look at them outside of Almost saying: I've played plenty with NC, they look super town yo. I don't have the same opinion or meta experience with NC, and I'm suspicious of them too. Thing is, I don't have to be right or wrong yet. I can ignore you both and go with the scum buddy option, and vigi/SK can take out one of Desp/NC/you and solve that issue in one night.

[Tywin Lannister]

And if NC is scum, chances of scum winning this game looks like 99% the way that you're all discounting him.

Me discounting NC? Not at all. I feel like I've been one of the few who even look at them outside of Almost saying: I've played plenty with NC, they look super town yo. I don't have the same opinion or meta experience with NC, and I'm suspicious of them too. Thing is, I don't have to be right or wrong yet. I can ignore you both and go with the scum buddy option, and vigi/SK can take out one of Desp/NC/you and solve that issue in one night.

If Socrates votes Desp with me, then what will you do? Stand your ground or re-join the fold?

I'm just one vote, but I vote where I think the best bet to hit scum is. Ali being overlooked by all of you means I'm on the right track

[Tywin Lannister]

There's zero reasons for the lynch to have to be Desp or ABR, and the fact that you all require it means something. Vigi/SK can solve the issue in one night. Just shoot desperado tonight. He's a claimed VT so who cares? Lynch Ali and hit scum with your vote. Let the NKs take care of the other issues.

[Tywin Lannister]

That's assuming that it's a vig that'll listen to you, or an SK that will make that play.

Ok, then regardless, there's a scum buddy or two out there. The fact that both parties don't want to budge says a lot.

Either ABR/NC/Desp are SvT or TvT.

If TvT, then they're blinded by their tunnel and wont stop until we all lose.
If it's SvT, then they're blinded by their tunnel too. Difference is scum don't want their buddy lynched, and town won't look for the buddy because they've pinpointed scum.

Meanwhile, I'm over here ignoring it all and going after the scum buddy. The TvT or SvT issue can be solved another day, and NKs help narrow things down. If it's SvT, scum fuck themselves after it narrows down to them VS Town bloc. If SvT and they shoot the town bloc, then they fuck themselves by showing they were trying to lynch town.

The optimal play is to make scum fuck themselves here, and the way to do it is to lynch their scum buddies first.

[Tywin Lannister]

Anyone disagreeing is inherently either scum or so blinded that they're compromising the game IMO.

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin, your blanket statements about the players you view as disagreeing with you are detrimental to actual discussion.
i'm literally tunneling so well that ABR complimented me for the sheer enjoyment of it.

if we've heard from zefiend and Vifam's replacement, and nothing has changed, i'll lynch Alisae.

pedit: yes, exactly. everyone keeps assuming the night actions will continue to help just because we were lucky enough to get a Majiffy shot.
scum have power roles, remember? those still exist.

Disclaimer: All of this also applies to ABR, but since I know more about NC's meta, I expect more from them. Regardless, this applies to both NC and ABR even if I mention just NC at times.

NC, you're not building a good case and don't have one. At this point, you're just whining. Stop. Focus. Pay attention. I don't AGREE with your point of view. That doesn't mean I don't understand it. I just think you're wrong. You haven't given a convincing case, won't look elsewhere, and there needs to be a hypothetical 'what if' aspect assuming ABR is town too. As it stands, you're playing like Titus. You're better than this.

I'm all for a mass claim to solve this petty bs. I'm tired of looking at it tbh.

Mass claim acceptors: Socrates, Desperado, Tywin, Almost

Anymore takers? Maybe we lynch ABR/NC and shoot the other for refusing. I made my case why it was bad earlier, but now that there's a clear bloc of two sides and all refuse to leave their tunnel, I'm more than okay with forcing the issue. This gets solved by either a third party vote, a lynch one/shoot the other option, or by a mass claim. Take your pick. If everyone agrees except ABR/NC, then we lynch one and shoot the other. Problem solved. If it's TvT, then we lost cuz of them anyway. If it's SvT, then a 1 for 1 trade is good for town. If it's SvS theater, then we win. Easy stuff.. It seems the towniest players want the massclaim at this point, and it's everyone on the sideline of this 1v1. Neither of you have a good case. It sucks and frankly, you're both anti-town by doing it. There's more scum out there and none of you care to look for them.

So massclaim, or we lynch/shoot you both. Which one? Best thing for town is the second option. The town player should always be okay with sacrificing themselves for a 1 for 1. How strongly do either of you believe the other is scum? This is simple stuff. Easy solution.

So... Which one to lynch and which to shoot? The ONLY way this backfires is if it's TvT, and in that case, both ABR and NC are too blinded atm.

So that's your choice NC/ABR, but if you refuse to even acknowledge other possibilities other than 'this player is 100% scum cuz their meta and cuz manupulative in a game based entirely around manipulation,' then forcing the issue means one gets lynched and the other shot. Mass claim is the only way to avoid that if you won't consider a third party lynch. If it's TvT, we are fucked, but that's your problem. If it's SvS (great show then guys, props), then you lose yay for town. If it's SvT, then 1 for 1 is ALWAYS in town's favor. So which one of you disagree?

[Tywin Lannister]

To put it plainly: D1 I suggested lynching me if it meant Majiffy got lynched/shot after my flip. That's what tunneling town who are certain of their read say if they're getting nowhere on the push. It's not optimal, but a 1 for 1 is still a win for town. Which of ABR/NC is this confident the other is scum? Inherently, NC's defense of Desp ties them together, so this boils down to a 1v1 between NC/ABR. Whose willing to step up and agree to being shot after their SR is lynched? Which one of you wants it bad enough?


@Almost:

is it possible these two would pull scum theater of the century to bus one and clear the other? If this was true, the primary goal would be ABR get his lynch, then we possibly lynch ABR, and NC is cleared. Otherwise, we lynch neither and whoever flips first clears the other. It's a huge gamble to do it, but after Majiffy died N1, is it something they'd possibly do?

Also, if not, do you see this as a TvT or SvT?

IF SvT: which player would you lean on as the town player? NC? I have my doubts about both, although the case on ABR is more than anything brought up against NC. It's all weak though.

[Tywin Lannister]

Based on VCA and PoE alone, ABR is the correct lynch. Meta doesn't work since both are good players. They know their own meta. While neither specifically say they're against another lynch, they don't want it. So something has to break here if nobody bends. Massclaim is bending. Neither want it. Third party vote is bending. Neither really want it. Lynch one/shoot other breaks the stalemate. My $0.02

[Tywin Lannister]

*Desperado.

Alisae when you say you don't care about things, and don't say why, and don't give any of your process, i get nothing from you.

NC, you're saying the exact reasons why I get pinged by Alisae. Unless this is a one off, it's not like him to play this way as town. Alisae is usually pretty aggressive and all-in on the scum hunt. They haven't been this game to the standard I'm used to, to say the least. It could be their RL stuff making them this way, but I can't judge based on that.

[Tywin Lannister]

It conflicts with Nacho's role.
And even if it was real, there's 3 of them going by the picture.
Chances are it's most likely a fakeclaim to get cheep towncred.

This statement alone makes me want to get an Alisae claim at the very least. This is essentially saying they aren't a VT IMO. I believe Desp's claim enough to think this. A few things can be read by the Majiff shot too. One is that Ali isn't the vigi based on their D1 Majiffy read. I'd have been shot if that was true. Anyways, i think this is a scum tell, because if Desp's claim is true, then Alisae probably isn't a VT, and there are only so many PRs we can assume town have. I'm betting Ali isn't one of them.

So if Ali isn't a VT, and they aren't a vigi (or a doc)....

[Tywin Lannister]

One is that Ali isn't the vigi based on their D1 Majiffy read. I'd have been shot if that was true.

Tywin. I TR'd you yesterday. So what the fuck is this bullshit?

[Tywin Lannister]

I kind of just want Alisae to claim and be done with it. By the time they're L1 to do so, deadline may be approaching. This is one of the reasons a mass claim is good. The other is common sense dictating who possibly is a vigi/SK here. Enough have claimed to where everything narrows down pretty drastically to only a few slots. Anyone paying attention can make a pretty educated guess on whose who, and I know scum will be looking.

So honestly, what's the point of holding back now? Socrates can hopefully make a good guess based on analysis of things posted and claims given to figure out who to protect, but then the next night phase, scum will just NK that person too. It's not very difficult to figure this out.

So what's the point of holding back now? We could make the scummiest or most null players claim first. Either way, it narrows down the pool of lynches, and I think most of us already guess that this isn't a heavy town PR game. It may be pretty easy to solve after a mass claim, especially since we forced so many to claim as is. There's not too many left who haven't, and most of us have a pretty narrow scum pool as it is.

[Tywin Lannister]

I mean, the only ones that really haven't claimed are either those with votes, those who are completely null, or those who are TR enough that a claim doesn't matter: me, Almost, NC, ABR, Alisae, Zefiend, Vifam/lycan

We all can assume me, Almost, and Zefiend won't be getting voted today or probably tomorrow either. This leaves lycan, NC, ABR, and Alisae. Alisae may be forced to claim anyways, so the final pool of unknowns is between lycan, NC, ABR. These are the final scum pools, unless scum are hiding in a assumed town slot: me, Almost, Zefiend.

I don't really see a point in holding back any longer while we still have a doc alive. The game should hypothetically be solved within the next couple of day/night phases regardless. Nobody has to claim if they have a dragonball or not either, and scum certainly won't say it regardless. So what's the argument against it at this point? Only the scum pool players seem like they don't like the idea.

So why would we not mass claim?

[Tywin Lannister]

Okay, ninja'd. Alisae has claimed....

So lycan/NC/ABR are the pool of assumed scum that's left. Not everyone can claim VT or we know there's an SK. We lynch one suspect, shoot another, and still have one more shot left tomorrow night. If that doesn't end the game, then we can safely assume based on flips if there's an SK or another scum, and we can look at the assumed town slots. Lylo is still pretty far away unless scum get all the dragon balls, and we can look at those who've hammered (Clumsy) to see who may have them.

[Tywin Lannister]

I wanna see what others think of Alisae's claim, but I'm open to lynching clumsy or lycan at this point. Probably lycan. He should be caught up now, so there's no reason to really dismiss the slot anymore.

[Tywin Lannister]

Those in favor of mass claim say Aye.

Really, this is probably everyone that has claimed and those that don't care (me/Almost). Idk what Zefiend thinks of it, but if the final naysayers are NC/ABR/lycan, then idk why we shouldn't force it. Protecting the vigi/SK at this point is pointless with so many claims already in the open. Scum aren't stupid and would only make at most, one wrong guess. It's a difference between possibly one night phase, compared to forcing a claim, a guaranteed doc protection on vigi (if not SK), and a scum choice of either wasting a night on Socrates, or wasting multiple nights taking out unprotected VTs and leaving a vigi alone to NK them. Scum will be between a rock and a hard place.

So yeah, mass claim Aye
Everyone else that claimed already probably say Aye.
So Almost/Zefiend/NC/ABR/lycan what say you?

The only REAL reason not to before was to protect a doc claim and then protect a vigi claim. Doc already claimed and vigi/SK can be easily deduced from a few specific slots. Scum know who they are, so that narrows it down to only a couple at best. Vigi is pretty much already known by scum. Only players that don't fully know are town, and that claim removes a mislynch possibility.

[Tywin Lannister]

Okay, I read up from when I last posted, but now I have to find the posts I skipped when I drunkposted on Thursday.

Going to put this out there right now: IF Desperado is scum, the scumteam has a roleblocker.

Entirely possible. This could be a reason not to massclaim I guess.

So we have two VT claims in Ali/Desp. What to do? Someone be a town leader and give us plebs direction. I'm at a loss.

[Tywin Lannister]

Clumsy is a lynch I could get behind. So is lycan. I can leave Ali/Desp alone for a day. NC said stuff. So ABR is the other one I suppose. I think he's town though, at least for the moment.

[Tywin Lannister]

Socrates: I take the NC wording as what we all assume it means, which basically invalidates any reason to not massclaim anyways, but whatever. If they later claim VT, I'm lynching them over it. Plain and simple. No VR refuses to claim when the town benefits look drastically to out favor scum, and also because anyone who reads the thread can already make educated guesses at things. It's pretty obvious who scum will NK with or without a roleblocker. If someone else flips what NC is assumed to be, then NC is fucked. I will make sure of that.

So really, it remains ABR/Lycan/Desp/Clumsy/Alisae, with Clumsy/Lycan my current preference.

There's no reason lycan hasn't caught up yet after claiming they would, and further lurking only adds to my suspicions.

[Tywin Lannister]

And clumsy lurks too, which a tag team hypothetically shouldn't do. Clumsy or lycan should be the correct lynch today.

[Tywin Lannister]

And since Socrates makes it clear that Clumsy gave them a ball, that gives town points to clumsy. So..

VOTE: lycan

Death to the lurkerscum. Vigi, shoot your other SR and let's play ball.

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin, it's been two days since lycan said it would catch up on an 83-page game. zefiend has also not caught up yet, we're waiting on both and i doubt both are scum.
why don't you want to lynch Alisae?

They claimed and the last real lurker besides Zefiend is lycan. I see no reason not to vote the Vifam/lycan slot. It doesn't solve the third or more scum player(s), but it's at least one of them if my suspicions are true. Nobody's lynching them before they post, but at some point, it starts getting scummy over being NAI.

[Tywin Lannister]

I'm not going to answer why till mafia are dead.

If you're suggesting I'm an SK, then I'lol just say you're wrong, but after all scum are dead, my lynch won't matter anyways.

And NC: I'm going with the safe bet. Idk whose scum, but I have said multiple times whose in my lynch pool. IMO, it's a process of elimination. What do you care if lycan gets lynched or not? If he's scum, that's good for us. Only his buddies would care. I'm unsure about you too, but I'm going off of your hints and current play to guess. If proven otherwise, then you'll be lynched and that's that, but til then, I have to go with the most likely scum. You not wanting to claim after the things you've said seems pointless to me, and no doubt scum think the same if you are town, but that's your choice. Lycan is a lurker just like Vifam was, and we're at the stage where lurker scum need the rope. It's that simple.

[Tywin Lannister]

I have reasons to be suspicious of both clumsy and Alisae, but idk which one is scum. I doubt both are. Same goes for NC/ABR. I'm staying with my third party option and let the others resolve themselves in time. It's not mylo yet.

[Tywin Lannister]

There's no need for me to explain. I WILL be heavily scrutinizing your play day 3, however.

Care to respond to my other posts pointed your way? They are still relevant.

I'm giving you my dragon ball tonight. If it doesn't arrive, then Imperium's question about whether ball passing can be roleblocked can be considered officially answered.

Capiche?

sorry, could you quote the posts? i can't remember any pending questions but i can go look.

and yes, i understand, believe me. with that in mind i'd actually recommend giving the ball to someone else, like Tywin.

This is only a temperary solution, because after the known PRs are gone, I'll be next due to semi-confirmed status. If there's a roleblocker, it's even possible I'll be first to go. Giving any balls to me at this point is a bad bet, because scum could capitalize on it, especially when it's said in-thread.

[Tywin Lannister]

So basically, it's better to not give me them and make scum actually work to find them. Socrates' ball will need to be moved if he's really the doc. There are a few options to pass them to that are semi-safe bets IMO. I'd go that route.

[Tywin Lannister]

And NC: I'm going with the safe bet. Idk whose scum, but I have said multiple times whose in my lynch pool. IMO, it's a process of elimination. What do you care if lycan gets lynched or not? If he's scum, that's good for us. Only his buddies would care. I'm unsure about you too, but I'm going off of your hints and current play to guess. If proven otherwise, then you'll be lynched and that's that, but til then, I have to go with the most likely scum. You not wanting to claim after the things you've said seems pointless to me, and no doubt scum think the same if you are town, but that's your choice. Lycan is a lurker just like Vifam was, and we're at the stage where lurker scum need the rope. It's that simple.

i know Vifam/lycan are in your lynchpool, but i don't see how a VT claim tells you anything about Alisae's alignment. i suppose in the grand scheme of things my reads on those two are not different enough that i vastly prefer one over the other, but i do think it's more likely for Alisae to flip scum. i just don't want any more claims we don't need.

VT claims don't tell me anything, but I've been wanting to vote Vifam's slot as the safe bet regardless. It's entirely possible that it's one of the scum slots, and removing them, while not solving the game, is still good for town. They will be lynched eventually regardless due to the double lurk, and I don't want them in Lylo if it comes to that. It's better to get rid of them now and let the rest sort itself as the game goes on.

I'd think you'd agree with me as town. Lycan is the last null player outside of you/ABR IMO, and everyone else is a crapshoot between VT claims. Lycan needs the rope. There's little reason not to at this point. There's always one scum lurker in practically ever game, and that slot has flaked twice. Vifam never flakes as town, so my assumption seems like a good one.

The only reason none of us went after the Vifam slot before was due to the inevitable replacement, but that's done with. The double flake is a pretty strong scum tell, which Socrates already mentioned as well. It's possible Alisae is scum too, but I'd rather go with what seems to be the best bet over gambling on which VT claim is fake. IMO, Alisae or Clumsy are the best choices there, unless ABR really is scum. Since ABR clearly isn't going to be lynched today, what else is there to do? Why push Alisae over Lycan here? They're equal in the scummy department, but one is a double flake slot that we all know tends to be scum in these games.

[Tywin Lannister]

:/

[Tywin Lannister]

Desp is an option I guess. I just don't think he's scum for various reasons. Lycan may be, but let's see after he catches up. If he's a no go, I'll be voting Clumsy. The hammer wasn't town driven IMO, and let's be honest, they haven't been going after scum. I liken them to Desperado's play. They're overlooked way too much.

[Tywin Lannister]

What does that even mean?

[Tywin Lannister]

Look, Clumsy and lycan are scum. Let's lynch one of them and move on. Desp isn't scum. I'm sure of his claim over Clumsy's, and clumsy hard defended Majiffy until he got shot. If nobody will move to lycan, move to clumsy and let's win already.

[Tywin Lannister]

The reason those players get no votes or traction is stupidly obvious. Look at the vote counts and realize this fact.

[Tywin Lannister]

I have an extremely solid townread on Clumsy and there's no way I am voting for him. Vifam has done nothing but lurk for the past two days, and Lycan is approaching lynchable territory as well. I could consider it, but I have a powerful preference for Desperado, who is still scum, by any metric.

Can you show your work? I see the answer, but how did you get to it?

[Tywin Lannister]

I actually forgot about the dragonball thing clumsy gave to Socrates. It's been a while since any things happened in this game. Regardless, it could be WIFOM too, but I doubt it. Damnit, shit is stalling, and I don't think Desp is scum. He'll be the lynch regardless, but scum gotta be on his wagon or who are they voting for?

Since Desp is gonna be the flip regardless, then if he flips scum, everyone on his wagon is cleared and scum are on Alisae/ABR. If he flips town, at least 1 scum is on Desp. This could still be a useful flip then.

[Tywin Lannister]

I just don't see a bus on D2 with one scum flip already. It's possible, but not probable. Desp, since you're at L1 now, anything to add? I'm pretty sure you're going to be the lynch.

[Tywin Lannister]

I'm not gonna defend him like NC did, but of all the possible candidates, his claim looks the most legit to me. Would ABR bus his scum buddy on D2 with one scum flip already?

[Tywin Lannister]

It is now up to Tywin. He can hammer Desp or he can come join the Alisae wagon. If he does the latter, Desp is a no go.

Damnit guys, I made it clear I didn't know who was scum anymore after majiffy was shot. I had my glory. Making me have more when I'm actually unsure is had.

But I'll be voting Alisae after I find the current vote count. Plainly put, desp' s claim looks more legit, Alisae hard defended scum D1 for no reason, and they haven't scum hunted to the standards I'm used to from town Alisae. Desp looks like he gave up anyway. He's not scum.

So unless alisae is l1, I'll move there, and if he's L1, I'm giving hammer intent. Will catch up first though.

[Tywin Lannister]

Bad

[Tywin Lannister]

VOTE: Alisae

I mean, you could vote yourself. That's pretty much the same thing.

[Tywin Lannister]

L2 btw just checked. Unless its L1 now. Anyway, it's not a hammer

[Tywin Lannister]

It's entirely possible both wagons are town, which imo leaves Clumsy, lycsn, and/or ABR as scum, chara as something else. Rest are town.

I tried for clumsy, but no takers. A VCA would show vifam/Lycan isnprobably sure scum, but again, no takers.

Neither of these lynches are my first choice, so it's not on me.

[Tywin Lannister]

The optimal lynch has always been lycan, but nobody voted him, including scum. There's a reason for that. Check VCA and see why tomorrow. He's scum, which is also why I'm voting Alisae. Lucian is on Desp' s wagon. That alone is reason enough to go for Ali over Desp. Lucian is my sure bet here.

[Tywin Lannister]

I am not hammering Alisae over Desperado today.

Game of chicken continues.

Then NL it is. I'm not voting anywhere near where Lycan places his vote. Scum get a free NK it seems, and you're it. That's on you.

[Tywin Lannister]

Seriously my dude, sometimes you gotta sheep the bussers.

I tried for Luca and remained the only vote on him over the entire game. Just me. Think about why. If you're town, then so is Desp, so either way it's a lose lose. I won't vote with Lycan when he's my too SR by far.

If it goes to NL, at least Socrates can't hold up a lynch anymore, and NC can shoot Lycan maybe.

[Tywin Lannister]

Lycan

[Tywin Lannister]

There's three days to deadline, I'm perfectly willing to wait it out to show how serious I am about Desperado flipping scum. You don't believe me now, you will be in for a rude awakening after I'm vindicated, alright? You want to go that way we can go that way, or you can do the right thing, we can get a scum flip, and reflect on the past two days, come back strong tomorrow. What do you say? Three days is a long time. Take your time to decide. Time is on my side, sorry to say, not yours.

Time is on Sun's side, sure, but vigi/sk can solve a problem at least one more night barring your scum team having a RB.

It's Lycan or whoever Lycan isn't voting. Its that simple for me. He's scum. If not, Desp gets shot. Easy solution.

[Tywin Lannister]

I cannot type on this phone. Autocorrect kills me.

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin you will be getting your Lycan wagon tomorrow.

Lycan is only lynched tomorrow if Desp flips town. It's a waste to wait a day when Lycan' s flip solves Desp' s alignment.

[Tywin Lannister]

Think about all your scum pairings that look probable. Lycan wouldn't vote his scum buddy when there's a viable counter.

Whose desp' s buddies if he flips scum? Can't be lycan, ABR, Alisae, Clumsy, etc. Whose left, and do they look scummy to you?

Think about it.

[Tywin Lannister]

I just think it's far more probable scum are on desp' s wagon. We know there is an sk or a vigi, and only 2-3 players can be one. All possibilities are on Alisae, which means at least 2 of us are not scum.

So if Desp is scum, then at least one more person between myself (I know I'm not at least), music box, Almost, and NC are scum. I'm not, and we all know who is assumed to be the vigi/sk. The rest could be scum, but that goes against my personal reads pretty drastically.

Ali may be town too, but then both wagons are. That's how I see it.

[Tywin Lannister]

Clumsy gets it. Lycan is my top choice. Scum don't want that one though. You can probably assume why I think that is.

[Tywin Lannister]

I just think it's far more probable scum are on desp' s wagon.

Yeah buddy, you're going to have to explain why they would be desp and not me.

I just did

[Tywin Lannister]

We have N AM for sure, but I think abr is scrum and NC is the AM here. The other option is almost was shot and hit his bp, or the sk was roleblocked. Still, NC hinted at being a Vigi and now claims there's an sk. That's a slip of I ever saw one.

Speaking of which, I will reveal this to prove clumsy is town: I was given the 6 star Dragon ball. It came from Socrates, so clumsy did in fact hand it out. I won't be holding it tonight though.

Abr, Alisae, or Lycan are my choices, but after ABR pushed so hard for obv town, my thoughts are that abr/Lycan are sick and NC is the SK. Since others believe abr is the sk, it doesn't hurt to lynch him regardless. He's not town.

VOTE: ABR

[Tywin Lannister]

Damn phone autocorrect.

We have an SK* for sure. Etc

[Tywin Lannister]

Lol if anyone can't interpret what I meant to say above before autocorrect turned it into gibberish, let me know and I'll try retyping it.

Tl;Dr though: abr/Lycan are scum, NC is SK. Otherwise, abr is sk, so it doesn't really matter. He's the best lynch at this point. Lycan can wait a day, since it's obvious we won't have vigilante help.

Massclaim is still fine with me. There's no reason not to force it at this point. Only unknowns are SK/scum slots. Why not push for it?

[Tywin Lannister]

Clumsy isn't scum. There's no point disputing it. Abr/Lycan are. You can wait til scum are gone to be lynched for all I care. Sk can't win after last night's shot proved there is one. Not shooting abr or Lycan was a mistake on sk' s part.

If ABR is the sk, NC may be scum, but I'm betting Abr is scum.

If I'm wrong about NC being sk, by default it falls to alisar' s slot imo.

Whoever wants to start the massclaim, go ahead. I can go first, next, or last for all I care.

[Tywin Lannister]

VOTE: Almost
Please stop ignoring me.

This is a very bad vote. Not town at all.

[Tywin Lannister]

Honestly though, I'm not lynching NC anytime soon. I don't think they're scum, so there's no reason to. Even alisae looks to not be toen, and abr/Lycan look bad too.

I'm flip flopping my reads a bit, but I think lynches need to start and end with abr, alisae, and Lycan. NC is SK or town, not scum. Clumsy is town imo. Almost is town. Music box is town.

We have a very small lynch pool after the last VCA on desperado imo.

[Tywin Lannister]

Ali, it's obvious. The only reason you don't see it is because youre probably scum with ABR.

[Tywin Lannister]

Actually, the straight VCA along with Ali hard defending majiffy D1, abr refusing to ever move to alisae, and ali flailing when we vote abr shows all I needed to see. Just took a minute to recognize it.

Ali/ABR is the scum team and Lycan the sk.

[Tywin Lannister]

who hasn't claimed yet? i think just lycan, Music, and me?

And Tywin. Everyone else has claimed now.

I'm VT.

Was going to vote Alisae but that can wait now until ABR's lynched.

Ok I'll claim. I'm VT as well. Specifically, a namekian elite warrior.

That's one of the reasons I was confident that Desp was town and alizae probably not. Too many of us flipped nAmekian elite warrior for it not to be the standard.

[Tywin Lannister]

Exactly

[Tywin Lannister]

I told you not to. Nobody listened and I didn't wanna claim just to hope one vote switches off obv town. Nobody on your wagon were scum and it was on desp' s wagon was scum driven.

[Tywin Lannister]

Obvious Desp wagon was scum driven*

I give up trying to type on this phone

[Tywin Lannister]

NC did hard defend for desperado most of D2, so nobody should be trying to flip the script on them. They tried to prevent it when nobody else did.

[Tywin Lannister]

ABR was just pushing for it without a reason, would never bend or discuss it, and then after the flip, he ignored the rest of what happened and laid blame on players like Lycan.

Nah, abr is scum.

[Tywin Lannister]

I think I'm next nk based on the claims, so prob best not to give me anymore balls.

[Tywin Lannister]

Nice gambit btw Almost50

[Tywin Lannister]

this is fucking obvious multiball with abr trying to pull a fast one. i would say abr, majiffy and a50, chara teams

Really? Multiball? Did you honestly type that with a straight face? How do you think it's obvious and somehow the game is balanced? Lols this is so ridiculous that idk what to say. Nice try I guess? Better luck next time?

Like how in the world did that statement pass your bullshit filter when you clicked submit? Please explain how many mini games you've seen with multiball? I'll wait.

Yeah, you're next after your scum buddy is lynched. You mine as well go back to lurking and doing absolutely nothing but voting obvious town. It will all be over soon.

[Tywin Lannister]

Keep flailing scum. Dance for us.

[Tywin Lannister]

Maybe next time you roll scum,you'll try playing the game. I feel bad for ABR. He was alone.

[Tywin Lannister]

I just don't care. Im lynching ABR. Sort the rest tomorrow.

[Tywin Lannister]

Ali, why are you thinking Lycan wouldn't do what he's doing as scum? If ABR flips scum, that's game over for Lycan and he knows it. The same goes if abr flips sk. Isn't it a bit odd to you that Lycan didn't say much all game until abr became the lynch target? Any town player would be immediately suspicious of abr after what happened here. Lycan is pretending crazy theories like multiball to do anything he can to sway opinion. What I dislike is him coming from nowhere to defend ABR here after the desperado flip. This isn't rocket science. He's caught and Yolo flailing at this point. Everyone does it when they can see the writing on the wall. ABR did it too. I did it my last game as scum. It's just common stuff.

Abr needs to get lynched. NC needs to claim. The day then needs to end to get a flip. I'll probably be dead tonight, so good luck.

[Tywin Lannister]

Last word

[Tywin Lannister]

Damn I had the scum team pegged except for zefiend,but music box was the obvious choice imo after Lycan was lynched. Gg all

[Tywin Lannister]

Idk... getting leashed as sk is basically a loss in my book, and that's even assuming town would go for it. They'd have no way to trust he was SK and not scum, and basically nobody would be handing him their drsgonballs at any point. His secondary win con was basically impossible. Town dont just hand a win to the SK like that. Nobody at all would trust him enough to take that chance. It's unrealistic in even the best light. I think his viewpoint on it was the right one tbh.

[Tywin Lannister]

His only shot was to have claimed vigi after the majiffy shot and allowed town to leash him thinking hes town. Maybe that could've worked for a very short time. Abr screwed up by pushing desperado so hard. I will never understand why he did that. It assured his loss no matter the lynch outcome. The majiffy shot also hurt his chances I think.

True, normal sk play couldve worked. I don't mind the role at all. I just think it would be very difficult for even the best players to win with, and idk how realistic the Dragon ball win con was. Nothing wrong with having it though.

[Tywin Lannister]

Large games are much easier to play SK under. Much, much easier. Imho though. Far easier to not be noticed by town and not targeted by scum. Minis are difficult for third parties imo.

[Tywin Lannister]

Although I'd still have enjoyed playing sk if it were me. So I don't see a problem with the role. It just went swingy after majiffy got shot.

[Tywin Lannister]

Less lynches to dodge, less scum to worry about, less people to kill in general = easier win

I just don't agree. I know in theory, you're correct,but it doesn't play out that way in practice. I
are games have a different dynamic that lends itself well to third parties. Minis don't. A mini is just a large with far less power that went through a few lynches already, but without the optimal scum/town ratio an SK prefers.

Maybe it's bias based on my past experiences, but I've always found third party to be much easier to legitimately win in large games, especially role madness ones (tons of power)

[Tywin Lannister]

Larger* games