Gay Mafia 3: Trumpocalypse Now D8

[Nachomamma8]

hey katsuki

can you vote xyzzy in celebration of me correctly reading you as town (and not your hydra partner)?

[Nachomamma8]

tonight is probably going to be my last significant dump of thoughts, mostly going to be working on dumping ISOs and then I'll consolidate it into a readslist again

i'm a bit tired but forcing myself to stay awake so I won't be dead for work tomorrow night, so if I seem lifeless/snippy that's probably why

[Nachomamma8]

Also fuck everyone who keeps saying give me some reads when every time I open this game I have to respond to some new godawful bullshit so I don't have time to catch up on 150 pages lmao.

trumpwrong.gif

every time you open the game you CHOOSE to respond to that shit

these are the conversations in particular that i find the least productive, unless you expect to change Katsuki's playstyle with an in game conversation.

[Nachomamma8]

Why are you trying to push through a SAD wagon now, kuribo?

[Nachomamma8]

it's not like you all telegraphed what you expect from townkatsuki and now, 80 pages later, he finally delivered so he's town forever and ever amen

I explained what I expected from townsuki after he already delivered.
If you disagree with the reasoning, then engage me on it - if you're looking to change my mind, attacking a vague shadow of my case isn't as effective as attacking the case itself.

[Nachomamma8]

I explained what I expected from townsuki after he already delivered.

and then kuribo pointed out that kats said he would have done what you expect from scum-him if he wasnt in a hydra (and placed more emphasis than necessary at that) and you just glossed over it

The rebuttal didn't make sense - him being in a hydra doesn't mean that he doesn't have a scum win condition and it doesn't mean that he would be less engaged in winning just because he was in a hydra.

I'm fairly confident I went over this before; if I didn't, I apologize.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think they did. What's your read on xyzzy?

@Vaxkiller

[Nachomamma8]

I would think someone would be screaming from the rooftops that "x" is scum and needs to be lynched, giving little reason.

This isn't necessarily the case.

But whats the scum angle from doing that? Its bizarre, but I dont see the scum angle.

They are scum with a town looking role, and so they crumb excessively to make sure that everyone knows that town looking role is theirs. It makes less sense from town who are trying to keep that role hidden so they don't get bumped off in the night.

[Nachomamma8]

Kuribo, why are you back to voting Hocho Knife when you think that he's town?
I understand that SAD is frustrating you but if SAD is scum and Hocho is town then him getting you to help him mislynch a townie then getting doctored in the night only helps him.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think they did. What's your read on xyzzy?

@Vaxkiller

Read is they need to post more. I'll look through thier iso tho.

Thank you!

[Nachomamma8]

slapping down a self vote with a partial claim and calling me a gamethrower isn't getting a townread from me

#sorrynotsorry

You're pissed at him because his play is infuriating.
That doesn't mean or even imply that he's scum.

[Nachomamma8]

WHY CAN'T WE BE FRIENDS?
-Ali

What's your read on xyzzy?
What's your read on Hocho?

[Nachomamma8]

no, let's talk about it now


because it's COMPLETE FUCKING BULLSHIT for him to frame it as "oh if i get vigged kuribo is scum"


like fuck you, how do you know the vig shot has different kill flavor? how would town you know that scum won't just shoot you and let me take the fall

He feels town. He thinks that you're posturing to shoot him instead of someone in the POE because he thinks scum-you is trying to wriggle out of shooting someone that's scummy.

[Nachomamma8]

He feels town. He thinks that you're posturing to shoot him instead of someone in the POE because he thinks scum-you is trying to wriggle out of shooting someone that's scummy.

I'LL SHOOT WHOEVER THE FUCK I WANT AND HE'LL JUST HAVE TO LIKE IT

I'm explaining his perspective because at that point it doesn't seem like either of you are getting across to each other.

[Nachomamma8]

You're pissed at him because his play is infuriating.
That doesn't mean or even imply that he's scum.

nope!

i've never found katsuki's playstyle infuriating

i do think it's scummy tho

As scum, his play makes absolutely no sense.
What's his game plan here? Play so I defend him (when I've very rarely defended him in the past) then piss off kuribo who has a vig shot and hope that self-voting is going to keep him from shooting him in the end?

[Nachomamma8]

Vaxkiller, are you still around?

[Nachomamma8]

his game plan was to lurk and do nothing and get townread for it because that's his town meta

His town meta of "lurk and do nothing" gets him mislynched fairly frequently; there's also not a person here who is going "katsuki is lurking and thus katsuki is town!" because it's not his town meta.

[Nachomamma8]

and then when that didnt work it literally took kuribo spelling out what he wanted from him to call him town for kats to actually do it

He's been doing it for ages.

[Nachomamma8]

Which is what Tammy and I both pointed out and what I don't feel has been properly addressed. Kuribo's made an effort to, but no one else has.

[Nachomamma8]

WHY CAN'T WE BE FRIENDS?
-Ali

What's your read on xyzzy?
What's your read on Hocho?

xyzzyxyzzyxyzzyxyzzyxyzzyxyzzyxyzzyxyzzyxyzzyxyzzyxyzzyxyzzyxyzzy

Okay in all seriousness I don't exactly like xyzzy anymore after Titus talked to me about things but I still likey like Hacho I dunno why Titus did a vote on Hacho she didn't check in with me about it it made me really SAD.
Is anyone bussing Xyzzy? I think I am starting to learn from SAD in that "I sheep the busser school."
-Ali

Interested in voting xyzzy, then?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't disagree that a majority of kuribo's current suspicion pool is mostly borne from frustration and is weaker than it would be normally, thanks to the Kuribo effect. It wasn't the case earlier.

[Nachomamma8]

His town meta of "lurk and do nothing" gets him mislynched fairly frequently; there's also not a person here who is going "katsuki is lurking and thus katsuki is town!" because it's not his town meta.

ive read this sentence five times and still don't understand it

i don't really agree with much of anything you're seeing right now nacho so

You argued that he was lurking to mimic his town meta.
It doesn't make sense to mimic a meta that 1) gets you lynched, and 2) isn't one that's strongly aligned with you being town.

[Nachomamma8]

oh yeah btw can we leash kuribo's shot?
-Ali

If you want the shot to be accurate, then work with him.
If you have concerns that the shot will be bad, then talk to him about your concerns.

I have no worries about his competence in taking a shot as long as it's not a "FUCK YOU I'M BATHING IN YOUR BLOOD TONIGHT HUEHUEHUEHUEHUE" kind of shot.

[Nachomamma8]

i argued that he felt comfortable lurking and doing nothing because he's been known to do that as town

He does this as both alignments.

The argument that I've been making is what happens when he starts to get in danger; when Katsuki is scum, he typically does something, and, failing that, doesn't actively make himself easier to lynch. As town, he gets himself lynched as demonstrated here.

[Nachomamma8]

whereas if fedora flips scum then xyzzy is almost certainly scum and if fedora flips town then he's probably town.

I don't understand the underlying argument here at all.

[Nachomamma8]

like if you wanna leash my vig shot, go right the fuck ahead, start naming names

Don't want to leash your shot at all; I trust that you're town and I trust in your reads in general. You just noted in MD when we were talking about releasing Private Topics that best strategy to handling you as scum is pissing you off and letting you push through mislynch after mislynch after mislynch and I've been very impressed with my encounters with Zen Kuribo; just want you to be channeling that instead of shooting people because they're being dicks.

[Nachomamma8]

if fedora is town loud doc then xyzzy finding their legit crumb and townreading them for it and then announcing it in thread is...not something that comes from scum

if fedora is scum then you and kise's tinfoil is correct

If fedora is scum, then they still put a doc crumb in thread. Why would xyzzy's response to it make them scum?

I have already explained that I don't think that the nature of how xyzzy handled the crumb is town; why do you so strongly disagree?

And if they share an alignment... why is it important to Fedora over xyzzy? Wouldn't it make sense to lynch xyzzy to confirm the loud doc?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm currently pushing them both because they look scummy.

[Nachomamma8]

like no one else picked up on the crumb, or at least they aren't letting on about it

even grey was just using the content of the loud message to spec them as the loud doc

maybe it's just that i don't often read sub-optimal plays as scummy? i understand that xyzzy hasn't played in ages but "find a crumb, kill that crumb" isn't even scum 201, it's day one of intro to scum

I can see xyzzy as scum, who clearly struggles with producing content, using the crumb as a way to produce a genuine townread, then end up outing it more obviously once pressured.

You're right that it's probably just a weird move regardless of alignment, though.

[Nachomamma8]

And I mean I guess they could have missed it but I don't understand how they can go "Fedora is super town because they crumbed town and it would be horrible to crumb doc as scum" and in the same breath mention that Tammy the claimed cop could still be scum?

[Nachomamma8]

I think scum Tammy is plausible

Fedora is deffo town imo for reasons

raisons for both please.

Tammy because I feel like the whole thing with the cop claim is scum trying to draw out town power roles

I don't think it would be beneficial to the town to discuss why I think that about Fedora. it's Reasons

Oh no, nevermind.

They thought that crumbing doc would be a dumb move for scum but claiming cop is completely acceptable to draw out power roles.

[Nachomamma8]

oh and if xyzzy survives today, that can go on the list too, i dont townread someone just for posting crumbs

You can ensure he doesn't survive with a vote of justice.

They.

[Nachomamma8]

And I mean I guess they could have missed it but I don't understand how they can go "Fedora is super town because they crumbed town and it would be horrible to crumb doc as scum" and in the same breath mention that Tammy the claimed cop could still be scum?

Nacho please I don't have to point the flaw in this argument to you do I

I mean the idea is that crumbing as town is better because you're not outing PRs but I don't understand how crumbing doc is too suicidal for scum but claiming cop isn't.

But I suppose that's entirely an academic worry at this point.

I would have rather that not been a hammer but you're not wrong about this day being exhausting and our moderators hopefully won't get around to locking the topic before I finish my posts.

[Nachomamma8]

i never get to hammer anymore and i do love the pageantry

you can still give a speech if you'd like

[Nachomamma8]

Spiffeh what do you think is wrong with my DGB townread?

[Nachomamma8]

kuribo's speeches are still as eloquent and beautiful as i remember them.

as for a small speech of my own, a small reminder of Majiffy's last words:

Spiffeh why are you still not voting Hocho, a person you said you'd vote, in favor of a wagon that frankly doesn't have the legs?

[Nachomamma8]

I think that's a fairly strong read considering history between her/Kuribo.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't like 101 because it's very much out of place in the flow of the thread. People are trolling, saying silly shit, RVS'n, whatever. Then FF pops in with 101 and "you're saying he's not antitown faction X but not Y?" which pings me like scum trying to look productive just because of how out of place it is.

I liked Syryana's approach to the Formerfish wagon. It was a wagon that was majority banter and was mostly baseless (unless people bought into Desperado's vagina brother comment), and the easy action was to jump in the vagina wagon or banter bros your way onto the wagon. I liked Syryana's criticism with Formerfish's 101 because it was one of the only things that I thought looked so much as vaguely scummy; he also brought up that the tone that 205 looked weird (which is another fair criticism, it started out with a conciliatory tone and ended with one that was much more distinctly of the "fuck you you're a piece of shit" variety). I don't think that the perception that this was "cheerleading" the wagon is fair; if he was scum trying to encourage it to go through, his best play was to join the banter bros and add a vote to the things that he pointed out.

VOTE: FF

L-3

What, no witty repartee?

I liked this observation because it mirrored my same concerns with ABR at the time. It's not significant, of course, but it also shows to me that Syryana's agenda here isn't to throw fuel on the Formerfish wagon and then fuck off which might be a plan of his if he is scum.

And it is L-1, actually

I liked Syryana pointing this out, especially when ABR miscounting horribly made the thread ripe for an accidental quickhammer on town. Unless Syryana had some chucklefuck sensing superpowers he wouldn't have known that Bellsprout would go full Leroy.

I bus when I want, not on your timetable Saddy boy

This is one of those interactions that I'm talking about that makes him feel more comfortable in the thread than I was expecting him to be if he was scum.

So overall the big takeaway from his Day 1 is that there's not a lot that I dislike and a few small things that I do like. I think the tells that I actually care about that veer him towards town are 1) his approach to the Formerfish wagon which is by far the most important takeaway from his Day 1; it's pretty easy to make a horrible looking opportunistic vote in that scenario (see: ABR), but I thought Syryana did a good job at looking what was actually scummy about the approach, and 2) I think that him announcing L-1 instead of letting the town miscount and get a responsibility-free mislynch was something he does more often as town than scum here.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't get what you're saying

They've been playing together longer than I've been alive and Kuribo's had a 100% DGB read rate the entire time.
I don't think that a lurking scum DGB gives a gun to town kuribo here ever and if they are both scum I don't think they talk about it open the way that they did.

[Nachomamma8]

I also don't know what the fuck I was thinking with my read on SAD, he's in the TOWN TOWN section with the other people.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that scum!DGB sees kuribo town read her and tries to get him to further cement that read by giving him the gun?

Again, if she were actually posting I would be more comfortable writing her off as town

But she's not so I'm not

This would make sense if kuribo town read her before she crumbed giving him goodies, but that's not the case.

[Nachomamma8]

What are you trying to accomplish?

You're expressing paranoia of someone who will almost certainly be living lategame and who scum will almost be trying to mislynch on the basis of "she's lurking".

What do you think I'm trying to accomplish?

[Nachomamma8]

If Kuribo, Tammy, and I all die then people who understand why DGB is extraordinarily town die out with us.

Need someone to carry the torch, and if I'm misguided to carry it, then I need someone to check my bias.

[Nachomamma8]

her scumpartners?

[Nachomamma8]

or if you think she has to give it to town then she sends it to a dumb townie and doesn't claim it

or the scumteam sends it to someone else and another member of the scumteam claims it

[Nachomamma8]

she can start contributing like she is capable of as town

i'm giving you a look right now for saying this considering the "you're just catching up and prod dodging" "this is closer to my town meta" conversation we had earlier

[Nachomamma8]

"i see you nacho but i'll still be pestering DGB until she posts more because i love and miss her"

[Nachomamma8]

watcher shouldn't watch fedora

[Nachomamma8]

I'm actually a little bothered by Pine breaking out of his annoying lurking just to attack our claimed Trump at the height of the Hocho wagon.

Why is that?
Seemed silly but not scummy to me.

[Nachomamma8]

I believe in a world where it's possible both Fedora and Pine could be scum together. And if Hocho is scum, then it could be indicative of both his and Desp's alignment.

Keep going, still not following.
Are you saying that Pine was getting in some distancing there or...?

[Nachomamma8]

He's not eating the ascetic supersaint baby.

I don't think there's a particularly large risk of Desperado being scum here, especially since his "loud modifying" power won't be around forever while Pine as scum will be for a pretty long time and he'll have to prove it over and over again.

[Nachomamma8]

if desperado flips scum run wild
otherwise, wouldn't recommend it

[Nachomamma8]

Tammy, come dance with me

Also I'm the one that votelocked Brian, FYI

I liked that he claimed this immediately; I think that as scum he might hold onto his claim if his role is as low-impact as this since being a vote locker doesn't make him look town and it would probably be more profitable to the scumteam as a whole if he claimed something that could draw a counterclaim or actually improve his chances of survival.

Nacho I'm gonna need you to town it up a little more

Or are you scum with Tammy

gonna need you to read me better or change your avatar to a white guy because that mexican tennis player has no right to read me as scum

I love you so much

Like I want to troll you but I'm so delighted I can't

I liked this exchange he had with me and it ended up being my basis for my silly townread on him for a while. It ended up unfolding in the course of a couple of minutes, which again shouldn't go towards a reason for townreading with someone but when he's been scum against me in the past he's always handled me about as smoothly as I handle Tammy when I'm scum (not at all) and this looked absolutely nothing like this. I would be surprised if his plan coming into this was to fake troll and then drop it immediately, just doesn't seem at all how he approaches this as scum.

Most interested in hearing Tammy's thoughts on this if she ever gets the chance to respond.

I understand the perspective of him buddying and latching on too hard to me/Tammy, but that's closer to what I expect from him as town as opposed to him as scum but that's personal experience that I've talked about twenty times already.

This is actually one of the reasons I started scumreading the slot. Alisae's more recent actions notwithstanding (I'm not rehashing that) I just don't see the town-Titus I've come to expect. No deathtunnels, no righteous indignation regarding the value of said deathtunnels, no anything that would be considered rocking the boat. She hasn't been doing a whole lot outside of trying to calm the waters which is an easy thing for scumTitus to spend energy doing. Yes, busy IRL and all, whatever.

Then there's the doc claim. It really didn't give me anything other than two headaches (one for claiming in the first place and another because of my head exploding when I tried to figure out the role-related ramifications of it). What I don't get is why you would crumb doc as town or why you would claim it when they claim it. I have this theory that the whole thing was planned to conf-town the slot, but that's a really tinfoil hat theory and I'm not gonna waste threadspace on it unless you want to.

I like his interactions with Titus a lot, especially if the slot is scum; if she is trying to confirm herself as town via the loud doc/xyzzy interaction, then I don't think Syryana casts doubt on the slot in the way that he does here. A lot of his Alisae concerns also align pretty closely with mine before I made them, and while it isn't a slam dunk towntell it does show me he's probably genuinely evaluating things.

syryana is worrying me. i get little town pings from him sometimes, but it's not enough of them. i would expect to have him as a top townread by now if he were town.

Fair, but you could have been talking to me instead of getting mad at the people spamming all the things.
Another post I thought looked really town tonally.

I don't at all mind his reads, they closely reflected mine at the time and I don't mind his reasons for giving them.

So, unfortunately, the strong points of my reasons for trusting him are based on his interactions with me/Tammy and how I'd expect them to differ if he's town. I was disappointed with our meshing together because I was hoping it would be the time that he could crank out all the lovely content to make people get off his back, but I don't think that one weak performance is indicative of scum because it was late as fuck and it's close to impossible to read and parse and post things when you're tired as fuck.

One of Tammy and I should be alive tomorrow (I'd trust Tammy's read on him over my own in most cases) so I expect this read to firm up and bloom into a big beautiful flower over time but he's just not someone who I'm worried about at this point in time because he is hitting the right notes for me.

[Nachomamma8]

spiffeh are you still around?
brian?

[Nachomamma8]

what does hiplop lurking as scum look like?

[Nachomamma8]

could you talk to me about your majiffy read?

[Nachomamma8]

how many scum am i looking for?

[Nachomamma8]

I've never seen hiplop lurk as scum

My Majiffy read is kinda nonexistent rn can you talk to me about yours?

i have majiffy thoughts in my big readslist post on the bottom of the second page of my iso
do you have thoughts on them?

This is the lurking hiplop scumgame Brian mentioned but at a glance already looks pretty radically different from here.

[Nachomamma8]

Are you just townreading LRF because of claim or are there play aspects that you like as well?

[Nachomamma8]

It's Player names. What use is role name?

I also am sort of worried about this post because it's confusing in context but his original claim was pretty clear.

[Nachomamma8]

what does a normal hiplop scumgame even look like?

[Nachomamma8]

spiffeh are you still around?

[Nachomamma8]

No one should watch Fedora.

[Nachomamma8]

Or protect Fedora.

[Nachomamma8]

Watcher should basically flip a coin between Tammy/Desperado (successfully watching Tammy tonight would be huge), Doctor should flip a coin between me/Tammy (protecting Tammy in case of a roleblock vax kill Tammy which is probably scum's optimal play).

[Nachomamma8]

if you're falling behind in a quickmoving game, would recommend just posting something so you're around as opposed to trying to get completely caught up first

can always read what you're missing later, but you'll never get back those wasted opportunities to post

[Nachomamma8]

With Kise, I liked his Jesus theory, but I have concerns with it since it ended up apparently popping out of nowhere and then guiding his push for almost the rest of the game. I think something like this is likelier to come from town than scum but forming a theory out of nowhere (water into fine) speculation is something that makes sense from a scum suspicion, particularly if he's distancing with Fedora.

I think about 7 people (including myself) are both conftown & strong town. That leaves 15 others who I don't know about. I wouldn't mind playing the confirmation game. I can't do anything else with my power tonight

I did like this post a lot, though. I think it's a pretty odd place for Kise to soft a role here and understand the mindset behind pressing hard towards the confirmation game. It certainly doesn't make me interested in lynching him anytime in the future, at least.

Desp

Nacho Tammy

Desp is Macho.

OOOOOOOOH SHIT

is it good idea then to have vax watch Desp for all eternity?

Grey how is it u remember and I'm now the one forgetting shit???

I liked him forgetting the Macho modifier to Trump, it seemed genuine and not likely to be something that scum would forget.

He's my last choice but yes, I would vote for him if it came to that. The reason I scrubbed his name from my previous post is because I didn't want ANY of u to feel encouraged. I'm not scumreading him and I obviously wasn't in the last game he was scum with u guys in, but he hasn't made a splash

I lied last time I said he was (my) town(read). That was a combination of bias and trying to shift focus to lynching someone I actually scumread

I thought that him talking about lying about ABR as a townread seemed genuine, and this is also the big solvey post that I liked coming from Kise. It's a good followup to the "let's break the game through the POE" point.

I trust his confirmation on Wraith's name so far, but that's something to keep in mind for down the road mostly.

[Nachomamma8]

i'd see what the oldest non-viewed post was then copy or write down the post number or something and then pop up in thread, it's probably easier that way

sorry about mislynching you, we weren't really ready for a hammer but it has been a very brutally long day so far and so it kind of slipped in early

[Nachomamma8]

do you have any suspicions that you formed from your catchup?

[Nachomamma8]

Still no clue what to do with my ABR read.

After reviewing Cyberpunk I feel a hell of a lot less confident in that comparison. I would be happier if there were more scumhunting, stronger emotional investment, but there's just not and while I don't think it's a strong tell I do think he's probably scum more often than not here. I understand Spiffeh's reasons for expecting him/Titus to be more of a toxic affair if they're anything but scum together, but I'm not sure how deeply I buy it. Would shoot.

[Nachomamma8]

{Desperado, DrippingGoofball, Tammy} - If there's scum in this tier, it's DGB. I think that her giving kuribo a gun is extremely town considering their relationship together; she crumbed she would give the gun to kuribo before he townread her and he never gave her an explicit townread before she put a gun in her hand. I feel this is a less likely move to make when she's lurky, not confident in being able to fool him. There are worlds where she/kuribo are scum together again and trying some strange carnival of lunacy gambit again but that really doesn't look to be the case right now, especially when kuribo continues to get townier and townier.

{Kuribo, Majiffy, Brian Skies, Ser Arthur Dayne} - SAD's been putting in a lot of effort this game, he has some very genuine thought processes and some very good thoughts. For a while I was paranoid because he was pushing the policy lynch angle but he dropped that pretty effortlessly which is a good sign and I think some of our recent interactions (as well as the interactions with kuribo) look pretty good. I'd be surprised to see any of these people flip scum, all of them have pretty natural scumhunting processes (excepting the jiffster), so I suppose that makes Majiffy the weakest of those reads - this doesn't at all seem like his approach as scum but he could have decided that he would try his hand at AtEing in a really weird way?

{-Grey-, Vaxkiller, Syryana} - -Grey-'s posting looks fairly town but there exists a tinfoil world where he's scum that decided to play completely balls to the wall to get townread; I don't find it particularly likely and I really like the emotional edge to his Titus/Alisae read despite disagreeing with it. Vaxkiller has a pretty town looking role, but there could be mod shenanigans/he could be lying his ass off to buy a day but it doesn't seem particularly likely. Syryana hasn't really done anything scummy in my eyes and has a really nice interaction with me, but that's a read I'd trust Tammy more on.

{Wraith, Kise} - I see decent reasons for both being scum, but they are likelier town than not because of role-related reasons. Waiting to see how this sorts itself out.

{Hocho Knife, hiplop} - Both players prefer scum, both players have interactions where they pushed odd targets in a way where it doesn't seem like it's coming from scum. Katsuki pushed Kuribo and then fucked off (moving to self-vote later) and have a stronger personal read there but Spiffeh's strong hiplop endorsement is something I'm factoring in for him and I don't think this is hiplop's scumplay when Spiffeh is his partner.

{Spiffeh, Cephir} - Neither looks particularly scummy, but am mostly townreading both. Spiffeh and I haven't been on the same page a lot which is an absolutely horrible way to read him so not particularly taking it into account, I thought Cephrir's miller claim looked really town for Pine-related reasons but now I'm not so sure considering the constantly townreading him syndrome.

{Pine} - Thought he was town by role, find the showing up in thread and then messing with Trump to be vaguely townish, but the complete lack of investment is fairly brutal in general and so bullets away.

{Little Red Fedora, Albert B. Rampage} - Talked about why I find Fedora scummy, talked about why I find ABR scummy.

[Nachomamma8]

It's just really weird that I'm looking for 6 scum in these names, which means that {Wraith, Kise} are just a scum lunacy pair or my reads are just absolute garbage, but not sure where they're bad.

I guess my reasons for kuribo but he's waaaaaay townier than he was in Gumball (don't understand Spiffeh's comparison at all; his anger that game was mostly directed at M&M and certainly didn't go on heavy rants on townies). I have no doubts that his rage is real and while that's usually not alignment-indicative his frustration at people softly shading him while he's a universal townread and him actually trying to read DGB/Katsuki/Majiffy (he didn't put much work into faking reading Katsuki in Gumball) looks good to me. Majiffy being scum just seems absurd to me; I can see him being bored with the game and just moving on but him getting instantly pissed with the enabler argument (and obviously having genuine emotion surrounding it considering he's still bringing it up now) doesn't seem like it was faked at all and it's not something it makes sense, don't understand the OMGUS argument Spiffeh was wheeling out against him from PT stuff (and it weirdly enough looked like his argument against Firebringer in DEFCON??). Brian Skies as scum, I guess maybe? His solving seems the most focused out of pretty much anyone else in the game and he keeps bringing up good points and I know I keep making Kuribo in Wonderland references but it just doesn't feel like the same person here.

Grey being scum seems like an easy solution; picked up on Alisae/Titus doctor eerily early and started speccing about them in thread might be some fucked convoluted distancing and I do think that the Desperado isn't the real Trump rampage was ultimately distracting but if he's scum with the Fedora slot those are some masterpiece level interactions (suspicion to townreading to suspicion to townreading, scum partners typically don't fake such complicated relationships with one another over the course of a day), and his constant going against the grain and pushing fucking hard against the grain makes him look like a lone wolf townie all the way. If he did decide to go absolutely freaking insane this game then his reactions where he very much seems offended and hurt by people's interactions with him are also masterfully faked, and I still really like his post about Titus to me that he made before he left yesterday. I just don't think there are any worlds where he's scum, probably would move him back up if I did the readslist again.

Vaxkiller I guess could be scum. Watchers are stronger than shit in town hands and we have lots of claimed power floating around already (cop + doc + watcher is already pretty fucking ridiculous even without taking Trump into account), but the "everyone who I see visiting someone else gets my name" bit throws me off - I guess names aren't indicative of alignment (can't be if we have Kise the name checker floating around in addition to that cop who is definitely town) and gays could be wearing bigoted skins in order to pass, but sweet fucking shit. Syryana could be scum if he just felt weirdly comfortable throwing his weight in this game. This is where I want TAMMY INPUT (@TAMMY: AM I LETTING SYRYANA CHARM ME OVERMUCH?).

Wraith I could see being scum for the reads switches and checking out but checking out is a decently strong plague in a game like this, so it's decently understandable. Still feels town for the reasons I noted, and Kise checking his name is a pretty big boon to him. Kise being name checker could be sketchy when we have so many other powers, but it seems like a pretty fucking risky play to claim something that needs killing eventually; will probably feel differently about how town his claim looks if the scumteam has oddball flavor.

I don't think Katsuki looks scummy at all which is pretty absurd but EP has been underwhelming and disappointing while they have been in the game. I feel strange about them being OK with Katsuki fakeclaiming and I feel weird about them letting Katsuki drive without any input, so really would like to see something from them eventually. Hiplop hasn't done jack shit which apparently aligns closely with his town play; could be town and would be surprised if he were scum just because of how strongly he pushed on me/Tammy (especially Tammy) but it's certainly not a townread that I'm comfortable with when I'm really hurting for scumreads.

Spiffeh has some moments where he'll make a push on someone and I'll die a little bit inside (don't understand Majiffy, recent Kuribo pushes) but I think I'm too harsh on him for not agreeing with me in general (Gumball is probably where I pushed the hell out of him for trying to lynch scum? or something like that?). I don't think his play here looks like his play in DEFCON, he's a lot more comfortable with getting in people's faces with how town he is but I really would feel a lot better if he took a more active role in solving. I also find his LRF townread kind of weird and wish he would talk about and look at their behavior a bit and am weirded that I've asked a few times but he's never really gotten around to it. Ceph I don't think looks scummy but my methodology for reading him sucks and that miller reasoning earlier sucks and if he flipped scum I wouldn't be completely surprised. REALLY WOULD APPRECIATE TAMMY INPUT HERE AS WELL.

Pine's role is really weird if he's scum and a role he's almost certainly telling the truth about since so many pieces of it are confirmable. If he had more pieces of his play that looked vaguely town I'd be happy to slot him in as town but SAD's right at this point, play is king and I need him to look town by play before he comes close to being in any town group ever.

[Nachomamma8]

So really I could see anyone being scum below the -Grey- line but feel pretty good about everyone above that. I don't imagine that Vaxkiller/Syryana will flip scum (Syryana just feels too good and Vaxkiller has the role) but those pieces of reasoning have the possibility of being shot down/changing later, so if those two step it up in later days/get themselves killed then we profit and hooray!

I might cry if xyzzy is town but I feel okay about that lynch again, just wish we would have waited until I had time to work with Tammy on this final version of thoughts. My current view of what to do is to clear through Fedora/ABR and see how many scum we get and then see how many more townies become more painfully obvious/how many get cleared through roles/what we learn in general.

[Nachomamma8]

My concern is more with his "everyone who I see gets my player name" aka he's not confirmed as Jan Brewer, people just get his name when he successfully watches them.

Which in retrospect makes more sense but it doesn't confirm him as town anymore if that's the case which is now a concern.

[Nachomamma8]

I thought that confirming him as 'Jan Brewer' aka a person on the Trump side would be decent confirmation that he was town.
Knowing that he's watching who he's supposed to watch is good but not as good.

[Nachomamma8]

Definitely seems genuine from Vax's end (especially the follow-up). Don't think they're partners, but that's not a particularly helpful revelation.

[Nachomamma8]

I can't be that helpful with making you feel less delusional or less like a lunatic for a reads list that is probably just completely wrong because that's the extremely wonderful position I'm sitting in right now.

If you have anything that stands out to you in a big way about my block of reads then I'd appreciate you bringing it up but otherwise I'm probably just sleeping and praying for Tammy to stroll in and fix everything.

[Nachomamma8]

What do you think of the top 7 townreads on my list?

[Nachomamma8]

Spiffeh being scum requires incredibly deep scumplay

?

Why is Ceph so high? Why are you townreading him?

[Nachomamma8]

Oh and also the what deep play does Spiffeh being scum require?

And also you can pass out any time, I'm losing focus fast and am distracted so I'm not really a good talking partner at the moment.

[Nachomamma8]

xyzzy's already been lynched

[Nachomamma8]

so

[Nachomamma8]

Man oh man still no flip and xyzzy posting like they're town not a good sign.

Yeah I have a tiny bit of hope that they flip scum because they weren't sure they were hammered at first (and didn't post after) but it's not significant at all.

If you have something you want to pick at in my latest reads please do.

[Nachomamma8]

If it's multiball I'm probably going to rip my hair out just FYI

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Little Red Fedora

[Nachomamma8]

Fedora is confirmed scum. Voting Desperado because of xyzzy's role is stupid; if Desperado is scum, there's a Trump that needs to claim to get him lynched. He doesn't die until then. Don't immediately, but don't know why people are proposing other options right now.

[Nachomamma8]

Fedora is confirmed scum. Voting Desperado because of xyzzy's role is stupid; if Desperado is scum, there's a Trump that needs to claim to get him lynched. He doesn't die until then. Don't immediately, but don't know why people are proposing other options right now.

Isn't SAD the one that did this?

How does this make Fedora confirmed scum?

Fedora is confirmed scum for other reasons. Happy to lynch ABR tomorrow but Fedora dies today.

[Nachomamma8]

Wraith seems likelier town with new Revelations; had a thought he might have been Brietbart.

[Nachomamma8]

We're giving a pool of players that the doc/watcher/other protectives should be on

They are Tammy/Nacho/Desperado/Fedora

Make scum take a risk by targeting/killing any of them

Why would a different protective role protect Fedora?

[Nachomamma8]

Tell me these other reasons.

Why do you have such a strong townread on them?

[Nachomamma8]

Why not?

A different protective role would be another possibility for a blocked kill. Assuming Fedora would be town if another protective role existed would be a pretty strange assumption.

[Nachomamma8]

Tell me these other reasons.

If you put effort into your Fedora read, sure.
If all you say is "I think these players are town!", then I don't see why we need a more compelling reason than what we have.

[Nachomamma8]

Because I think I was the nightkill Night 1

and that they saved me

You were protected Night 1. This doesn't mean you were the nightkill.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm happy to talk about why I think Fedora is scum when I'm home.
I am not going to jump through hoops detailing my read on them if you won't give me reasons beyond "I think I was the nightkill".

[Nachomamma8]

What a great way to discredit your conftown!
By saying he's not solving the game.
Shit maybe you are scum Brian.
-Ali

Spiffeh I want you to notice how absolutely horseshit this argument is

[Nachomamma8]

I also haven't seen you comment on Fedora protecting me over the claimed cop and scum feeling confident enough to shoot the claimed cop when there were two investigatives who were likely to target her.

[Nachomamma8]

Eating a Muslim baby makes me Ascetic for the night and a Supersaint the next day.

If we decide to lynch Pine today due to 3P concerns, I'm willing to hammer.

Grey looks townier.
I specifically wanted to avoid Pine becoming Ascetic, so care less about his lynch even though I still think he's probably town.

[Nachomamma8]

So wait.
Hold up.
I was supposed to doc a cop
who's alignment isn't 100% garenteed to me known to me
Who could have also been fakeclaiming (okay they weren't but fine)
over someone who is most likely MOD CONFIRMED TOWN.
-Ali

You were supposed to target the player that could confirm people's alignments 100%. If you thought Tammy was scum you should have said as much or talked to me about the read.

[Nachomamma8]

Stupid to try to kill me.

This is also scum. This can die after Fedora does; splitting votes at this stage is dumb.

[Nachomamma8]

So do I actually. Vaxkiller better either claim if Fedora targeted Nacho or who targeted Tammy.

But anyway it's super obvious you don't doc a random over a claimed cop, so Fedora is scum anyway.

uh

they docced the conftown?

Scum was obviously always roleblocking or killing Vax, which means that cop was vulnerable but had a pretty strong chance of getting the investigation through. It makes no sense to protect a conftown when he's dying anyways when if you let a cop's investigation go through you get either a scum or another conftown.

If you are a doctor and there is a claimed cop and an innocent child, you always always always protect the cop.

Scum risking shooting Tammy and succeeding is also a significant point against them; if Fedora and Vax were both telling the truth, then scum wouldn't be jumping at that shot in particular.

[Nachomamma8]

I mean, I suppose I'm not horribly picky as to which one dies first but both 100% need death.

[Nachomamma8]

Spiffeh, what happened to ABR and Titus bussing?

[Nachomamma8]

Either 1 of ABR is most certainly scum because Vax was NOT likely blocked given kuribo claims to be. I really don't see kuribo claiming to shoot an obviously scum slot while really double shooting Tammy. Even if that happened, still nets us one scum because Vax sees that moonlogic.

So that's two scum narrowed down based on my choices.

If I had healed Tammy, we'd have a dead Tammy, but scum able to argue the double up, claim blocked and shit the thread.

I don't understand how Vax is confirmed scum. Watcher claim was the one it made the most sense to block; can't block Tammy because two protective roles and you successfully protecting the nightkill is a blocked shot and confirmation you were blocked while Vax doing so is a confirmed scum.

Kuribo didn't claim blocked. He claimed his shot didn't go through. This could have happened for a variety of reasons, the likeliest of which is ABR being a bulletproof/commuter type (which is why people are voting him).

If you healed Tammy, she wouldn't have died, doctors are supposed to protect from nightkills???

[Nachomamma8]

We don't get this information if I heal Tammy ftr.

Except... we do. Tammy would just be alive to process that information with us.

[Nachomamma8]

Strongman to balance against me.
Tammy dies even when I heal her.
"Watcher" blames kuribo throwing shit (argues nightkill and vig on Tammy) in his direction and claims blocked.
Thread goes to shit.

When, by healing Nacho, Vax gives us scum, claims something ridiculous.

Oh, right

So you made the worse protect because you knew scum were going to target Tammy and you didn't want to look bad as a result? And Vaxkiller blames Kuribo for the nightkill how...?

Mostly just interested in Spiffeh's response to this at this point.

[Nachomamma8]

If I had healed Tammy, we'd have a dead Tammy,

Like how is this an argument coming from a doctor who assumes they blocked the Night 1 kill?

[Nachomamma8]

fedora had an unconfirmed cop claim and a confirmed town and they docced the conftown

how does that confirm them as scum?

"Unconfirmed cop claim" - Tammy was unconfirmed town but obviously so. Watcher was always getting blocked, meaning protecting the cop meant another investigation and confirmed alignment (the "oh there's a miller in the game" argument is dumb - of course she doesn't target the miller).

Scum should have been afraid of shooting Tammy. They weren't.

[Nachomamma8]

Brian - Loud doctor doesn't confirm their target was saved (as in they don't know whether scum shot at either of us or not). They only know their target was protected.

[Nachomamma8]

Why are you not more outraged that people like Katsuki, Wraith, and Syryana come in here and naked vote and contribute nothing else?

I'm annoyed at people lurking, sure.
Not a whole lot I can do about it when we have Titus/ABR lynches to go through first.

[Nachomamma8]

Fedora/ABR, sorry.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho do you have any reads on them?

For instance, you seem to be close to Syryana. What do you think about him doing jack shit this game?

I've talked about this before.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not quicklynching and I've worked to sort through lurkers more than you have; what exactly are you suggesting I do differently right now?

[Nachomamma8]

i would love to murder syry but i don't think that's a thing nacho cares about right now so it isn't happening sad

It's a thing I'd like to talk about. People like to ask me about Syryana and I've went through his ISO, talked about him several times, but no one has actually followed up on it or made a case beyond "he's lurking! he's buddying!".

You're right that I don't think Titus/ABR should be ignored in favor of lynching Syryana or anyone else. I think there are very strong reasons to lynch both over anyone else.

[Nachomamma8]

You quoted things and said they were artificial and generic. I disagreed. That's not really a conversation, is it?

[Nachomamma8]

You said no one "made a case beyond 'he's lurking! he's buddying!'"

Or "he's fake!".

[Nachomamma8]

Him buddying me is something I expect from his town play (and buddying really isn't a scumtell?).
I don't agree that he's fake.
There are multiple people lurking harder than he is.

[Nachomamma8]

Like at the very least I want this Day to last long enough for many of them to get in prod range/force replace range

Idk what else you can do it's just immensely frustrating that half the game isn't even playing it

I think the only person lurking hard enough to be replaced is DGB; others might show up and prod dodge but I'm not sure what happens beyond that.

At this point I do think clearing out ABR/Fedora quickly is probably best; I'm happy to outline larger points on Fedora if you still have concerns there but those two lynches probably net us two scum. With two more nights and two more kills and two more opportunities for information, more stuff will probably shake out and hopefully lurkmass will actually do things.

The only productive things I see coming out of today are Vaxkiller's post and Syryana talking to me today about things if he feels so inclined. Otherwise, I'll probably give a revised and updated reads list and that will be all I really have for today.

[Nachomamma8]

How around do I have to be?

[Nachomamma8]

LRF - 6 (Nacho, Cephir, Syryana, Grey, Hocho Knife, Wraith)

nacho how can you look at this wagon and say "yep, fedora is flipping scum"

i just dont fucking get it

I don't care about the wagon at all.

[Nachomamma8]

[Nachomamma8]

Desperado, I love you, but when Fedora flips scum I want you to imagine a smug expression on my face and I want you to dream of that expression when you go to sleep at night.

[Nachomamma8]

I didn't think this game was going to be this much of a shit show and honestly most of my frustration right now is Tammy being dead and Desperado and I not seeing eye to eye at all but it doesn't have to be this way

[Nachomamma8]

LRF - 6 (Nacho, Cephir, Syryana, Grey, Hocho Knife, Wraith)

nacho how can you look at this wagon and say "yep, fedora is flipping scum"

i just dont fucking get it

I don't care about the wagon at all.

Desperado, I love you, but when Fedora flips scum I want you to imagine a smug expression on my face and I want you to dream of that expression when you go to sleep at night.

LOL

No like Nacho I like you and all but this is the same thing you pulled with xyzzy where you were so ~confident~ he's scum.

Oh? I called xyzzy confirmed scum?

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho are you content with Katsuki outright refusing to do anything?

No but it's something I'm used to.

[Nachomamma8]

You know that all of this is Bellsprout's fault, right?

[Nachomamma8]

Man if this wasn't a deserved town loss then I don't know what is

[Nachomamma8]

Makes plenty of flavor sense, though - trump and minions run around in circles and scream a lot and the gays pick them off quickly and ruthlessly.

[Nachomamma8]

KURBIOH.

Anyway


Where's my Nacho


Find me sweetheart I have longed for you

I loved your beautiful post almost as much as I love you <3

[Nachomamma8]

Makes plenty of flavor sense, though - trump and minions run around in circles and scream a lot and the gays pick them off quickly and ruthlessly.

Flavor wise I'm kinda glad the scum won

Maybe that's why we played so terribly - we were too guilty about being shitheads to actually play for a win!

[Nachomamma8]

Brian will always be my MVP for this game as the one townie who played a beautiful game. It is incredibly sad that this is the second time he's been a bright shiny beacon of Hope while the rest of us couldn't get our shit together.

[Nachomamma8]

How was my play this game?

If you'd managed to get it together enough to make a post, we might have actually won this game!

[Nachomamma8]

Makes plenty of flavor sense, though - trump and minions run around in circles and scream a lot and the gays pick them off quickly and ruthlessly.

Flavor wise I'm kinda glad the scum won

Maybe that's why we played so terribly - we were too guilty about being shitheads to actually play for a win!

I was personally trying to do a little method acting, really get into my role.

Even spread some dank memes IRL

I like it.

[Nachomamma8]

I took a look at our lynches and I think every single person who was lynched was 100% deserved except for formerfish.

No, not really.
I mean I guess you can just rail through policy lynches without caring for scum motivation if you'd like but that's how you horribly lose games.

[Nachomamma8]

@Kuribo, you don't say it's a logical fallacy that scum kill the mod-confirmed town when the scum showed they would kill mod-confirmed town as soon as it occurs. You lived through like 3/4 nights.

All of the shots were either confirmed town or PR kills, Kuribo wasn't either of those things. Lynching players because they are alive beyond when you expect them to be alive is dumb; it's a red flag sometimes, yes, but it should never be a reason for a lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

Brian has always impressed me, I remember when he first started out I was in a game with him and he's really never disappointed since. Probably one of the better townplayers around.

I remember when he had the Baccano! avatar and did a bunch of walls and was all logical and gamble-y and stuff, and I also remember playing in a game with a him and RayFrost Hydra in the strongest scumteam I've ever played in, dominating the shit out of town, and then them drawing strongman vig and them taking us down one by one like some horror movie monster until the town tried to lynch them.

[Nachomamma8]

no one treated him as scum because of it

You have to look at the kills that were made instead of the Kuribo shot, though:

Spiffeh (Paragon), Desperado (confirmed town), Kise (power role), etc

[Nachomamma8]

if that'll make it happen I'll turn off my BP

This was the only part that seemed questionable to me - why would ABR remain investigation immune when the cop was dead?

[Nachomamma8]

no one treated him as scum because of it

You have to look at the kills that were made instead of the Kuribo shot, though:

Spiffeh (Paragon), Desperado (confirmed town), Kise (power role), etc

Do NOT forget Brian.

Brian (Lord and Savior of town)

[Nachomamma8]

SMITE role madness was still worse. And I only made it to day 2 in that one.

The real moral of the story is that at least this game wasn't as bad as smite

[Nachomamma8]

Smite is one of those games where those who lived through it speak of it in hushed tones and shudders whenever bad games they lived through get mentioned, but we don't actually like to relive the specifics to spare our sanity.

It was that bad huh? =(
Fair enough.

Most games you are miserable at the time but you can look back at and feel distanced from and it's just town being stupid or you being stupid or whatever. Smite was a different beast entirely.

[Nachomamma8]

*raises hand* I'm just saying but if you have to shoot your own members you done goofed, sorry not sorry.

It's a fine move at times - it's functionally the same as bussing in a large amount of instances with a weird psychological effect where people think that it's much much different than bussing.

[Nachomamma8]

OH AND BY THE WAY:

LRF - 6 (Nacho, Cephir, Syryana, Grey, Hocho Knife, Wraith)

nacho how can you look at this wagon and say "yep, fedora is flipping scum"

i just dont fucking get it

orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

fedora is town and scum are using nacho (again) to mislynch her

so this is what it was like to be town in song of fire and ice

Desperado, I love you, but when Fedora flips scum I want you to imagine a smug expression on my face and I want you to dream of that expression when you go to sleep at night.

[Nachomamma8]

You were good nacho. Stopped me from getting a good mislynch or two off and made me play less mamahen than I wanted.[/quote]
Thank you!