Mini 1907: Oddrole Mafia IV (Game over)

[Almost50]

Kill all replacements! WAIT! Did I replace into this one?? SCRATCH THAT. ADORE the replacements.

VOTE: Javajoe

For offering to share his cup. If he was truly kind and gracious he would have offered everyone a cup of their own. (meanie meanie)

[Almost50]

Well, no one seemed to make an interesting post, so I'll vote the one I think is scummiest.

VOTE: Almost50

Hello, Creature. Y'know, I would've scum read you if your RVS went on anyone else!

[Almost50]

Well vig doesn't really seem like a very rare role to me... And if we are going to go over what might have happened last night, I will say that my role does not have the ability to protect itself or anyone else, so I have no information for you.

If we start claiming "who DOESN'T have the ability to protect people," you're gonna narrow down the pool for a night kill real quick.

^^ Possibly Town. I too was thinking why Java felt the need to declare that bit about his role. In fact, I could brush off Creature's Vig and Chicka's crumb at being a protective as being jokey, but I don't feel like Java was joking at all.

Well played, champ. (@Java)

[Almost50]

Brie and Joe are already giving out way too much role information. RVS is over for me.

UNVOTE:

I have to agree. Brie, Joe, too much information. It just helps scum figure out who is who.

scum in this pair, guaranteed

I can hardly agree. Scum would probably keep silent about it and share the info between themselves, analyze it and try to determine their best strategy. Outing who has crumbed what isn't in scum's best interest, because it also let's informative/protective roles know who is likely to get NK'd next if it somehow went right above their heads.

[Almost50]

Oh, and to reiterate.. TOWN should've also let it go. What I'm saying is that was more likely bad town play than bad scum play.

[Almost50]

Oh, and to reiterate.. TOWN should've also let it go. What I'm saying is that was more likely bad town play than bad scum play.

96 I think the pot's calling the kettle black here. You're probably right, regardless.

Mate, it has been pointed out and highlighted already by the time I posted that. I do get your point, but it simply doesn't apply when you're commenting on someone who had commented on someone's bad move.

[Almost50]

VOTE: Chickadee between my tingling and Snarky's vote, I'm cool here. He's a low-poster, but he has a good eye.

Your reasoning is "because SS voted there"???

VOTE: Chickadee

And I guess yours is "because boring said she voted there because Snarky voted there"?!

OK.. intent to vote Chicadee because I want to sheep Creature who is sheeping boring who is sheeping Snarky who got a vote on Chicadee out of nowhere. Boy, that sounds like the best reasoning ever.

[Almost50]

Then why didn't you join me & massive on javajoe earlier? Anything special about Chica as opposed to java? Or is there anything special about being the 4th voter rather than the 3rd?

[Almost50]

did you see post 99? It looks to me like boring pretty specifically said she didn't like Chickadee's friendly tone, so I feel like your first section here is a misrep. And why are you making assumptions abo

1- She didn't vote on 99. She specifically mentioned Snaky's vote here as the reason that helped make her mind up. The "tingling" was old news. The Snarky vote is the new element that lead to her voting Chicka.

2- It's obvious I was making a tongue in cheek comment there and Creature got my point and responded. He didn't specify a reason, and it came right after boring's, so that was my way of asking him to explain his vote.

[Almost50]

Oh, btw.. I just noticed: HAPPY BIRTHDAY, GL.

[Almost50]

I guess the question I want to ask you is, do you think the "tingling" in 99 was sufficient for a vote or not? Because it still looks to me like you've focused on the less important part of her explanation

It was enough to place a vote there for the sake of moving out of RVS. It was not enough to join an already growing wagon that could turn serious (and it seems that it did with Chika already @ L-2 with seemingly no resistance at all).

Why isn't anyone defending Chika? The wagon is forming faster than it would normally do if Chika had made a stupid scum slip (in which case town will volunteer to find her alternative explanations).

Let's not forget "someone crumbed something then denied it was a crumb" and scum would love to know for sure.

[Almost50]

I can hardly agree. Scum would probably keep silent about it and share the info between themselves, analyze it and try to determine their best strategy. Outing who has crumbed what isn't in scum's best interest, because it also let's informative/protective roles know who is likely to get NK'd next if it somehow went right above their heads.

sure

they'd also go out of their way to criticize a townie for outing role info, because that's what scum think town should do in that situation even tho by and large, they don't

That would be bad scum, y'know, because good scum know how to play if they were actually town too, so they would do exactly what they would have if they did draw a green role. I guess that two can play the game.

[Almost50]

Don't play when you're drunk.

But seriously even if Chick turns out to be scum. We've been playing for only a few days and she's at L-2 based on only a couple of things she said.

I'm calling a Chika/Brie/A50 scum team

[Almost50]

Don't play when you're drunk.

But seriously even if Chick turns out to be scum. We've been playing for only a few days and she's at L-2 based on only a couple of things she said.

I'm calling a Chika/Brie/A50 scum team

So you are saying that you are on a scum team with Chickadee and Brie???

Pretty much. People are voting Chicka for whatever and myself & Brie are defending her, so she must be our scum p.

Also, when she does flop GREEN, it's me and Brie & "insert someone's name" trying to get Town cred for defending a townie.

I've seen it happen too many times. People develop their SRs first, THEN try to find a narrative to fit it. It's not only scum that do that anymore. Town are doing it too. Like, I don't like you >> you must be scum >> now let go find the reason why.

[Almost50]

I really have not crumbed. Whatever you think you saw, you wanted to see.

That's irrelevant and is not the point. The point is you're being pressured by scum for a claim. At least how your wagon feels to me.

[Almost50]

Like, I could have imagined it, YES. But then scum picked on it and decided to pursue it. They want to know what you are, and if that's the case then you must be town (which is all I care to know at this point)

[Almost50]

Almost, who is the scum driving the Chickadee wagon?

Like, I can't ponpoint who is scum and who is just being bad. All I know os it's a bad wagon and it's bound to have scum on it.

[Almost50]

That's a better wagon tbh, and I wouldn't mind joining it provided I get some answers first:

@Ginghan: Why do you TR Desp?

@Creature: How is it different? I mean, I do get you meant this is not a pressure vote. I'm actually asking for the reason you SR Desp.

[Almost50]

Right now explaining my scumread would mean telling scum what to do to get townread.

Like, I'm leaning Town on you, but let it go on the record that I'm giving up on trying to figure how your brain works. I will always read you (or try to) by whom you vote rather than why!!!!!

[Almost50]

Great, I hate third parties, hopefully it's one that town doesn't need to kill.

It is true that I'm falling asleep already and my eyes are burning, but I honestly tried to find where this came from and could. The thing is The Brie even responded to it, so I went back and read their last 4-5 posts and still couldn't find the reference to 3P, so I'm even going blind or I don't know what you two are talking about. Anyone care to share?

[Almost50]

Great, I hate third parties, hopefully it's one that town doesn't need to kill.

It is true that I'm falling asleep already and my eyes are burning, but I honestly tried to find where this came from and could. The thing is The Brie even responded to it, so I went back and read their last 4-5 posts and still couldn't find the reference to 3P, so I'm even going blind or I don't know what you two are talking about. Anyone care to share?

Bolded for convenience:

I'm 'ditsy' because I haven't played with this many people before and I actually have to worry about what people think. Last game I became conf town and that gave me more freedom.

Also I've been seesawing in whether I should give my information. I think its usefulness to town is greater than its usefulness to scum, but I haven't been sure claiming is a good idea.

Anyway here it is: I'm Census Taker. Once a game I can ask how many alive players there are of each alignment.
There's 3 mafia, 1 third-party, and 9 town aligned player.

OK.. this just roves I should've been in bed like.. an hour ago. Thanks for bolding it though.

[Almost50]

And I was just in the middle of explaining myself.

I'm thinking Almost 59 is genuinely confused, though I'm surprised he missed it.

Oh, please! I'm TEN YEARS younger than that. I'll only be 49 next June.

[Almost50]

Of the 3 leading wagons I find Desperado's the most likely to flip scum, followed by SS. While Town!SS is likely to stay silent until after he gets lynched I am betting more pressure on Town!Desp will force him to say something AI. I only played with him once and that was the case.

To reiterate: I am familiar with SS' play and he can be a lurk sack like this as either alignment, and not even being put @L-1 will bring him out of it as either alignment. We won't even get anything informative from his flip either way.

Desperado I'm NOT familiar with his Scum play, but I have seen Town!Him recently and when really pressured he delivered (sadly he still got lynched after reaching a stalemate with a counter wagon that was also on Town, and he decided to self-hammer, which still benefited us on the next couple of days and Town won there.)

As for Chicka, I already decided she was Town, so need to reiterate.

HOWEVER, I would still rather pressure Java more here. Even if he gets replaced we need to have some indications on the slot from the replacement.

So, let's concentrate on getting Desp to talk more and java/replacement to talk at all. Shall we?

[Almost50]

You guys can't be that dense. I think he's probably town, but his play is "meh" as in not good but not awful. You don't have to make good quality moves to be townread.

I'm not following. Who is "he"? Java? Desp? Snarky?

Also -whomever "he" is- would you care to explain what gives you a Town lean on him rather than a big null?

[Almost50]

I'm still here. Why the heavy wagon

Heavy?? You only have 2 votes on you. People want you to TALK so we can sort you out.

[Almost50]

People really need to get in here and weigh in. This day is creeping along.

Getting accurate/reliable reads off what's going on in the past 48 hours is harder than pulling teeth. I am waiting for something to comment on but I'm stuck with nothing much to add. Perhaps I'm not in the right mindset? Not sure.

[Almost50]

@Desperado:

You may now add this to your list of unexplained votes/

VOTE: Desperado

I mean, you come online, post thrice and not add a single thing. The last time you said pressuring you won't yield anything new, which indicates you're not willing to engage, and I let it go because I myself can't find much to say at times.

However, your latest posts look like fillers. If you suspect scum are on your wagon then make a case or try to guess whom it is. Saying "there's one scum on my wagon" w.o. specifying a pool is bad, and adding a condition "if Chicka is scum" is even worse.

Let me rephrase: You have no definite read on Chicka. Yes? She may or may not be scum. Correct? IF she's scum then there's another scum in the 4 who had previously been voting you. Are you speaking in riddles?

In our last game together I got town vibes of your desperation when your wagon was building. I don't get that here. I don't know if you're apathetic town or scum who has given up, or scum who is laying down and hoping the storm will pass you by.

So again: Why do you suspect Chicka might be scum? Who do you think is scum on your wagon, and why? What if Chicka is town. What changes in your reads?

[Almost50]

There's just no way he's mafia. I'm going to meta dive for a few of his scum games to confirm, but do you all seriously believe anyone is this bad at scum? Really? He's either got something up his sleeve, or he's a jester. I guess a vengeful scum is a possibility, but even then, you'd think he'd wait until we mislynched a few townies to increase the damage.

Ok. Here's something I feel obliged to respond to, albeit not directly related to this game.

STOP ASSUMING OR BRINGING UP JESTER!! It's becoming a sickening fad.

Also, whoever said we should not lynch Jesters? By definition, Jesters are anti-Town. In practice, they will never side by the Town, because -unlike a Survivour- a Jester will want to intimidate you and force you to lynch them.

Scum also are NIT going to shoot a Jester unless they're going into the night on LyLo (i.e. They win regardless as soon as their NK is successful). Otherwise, scum would rather shoot Town.

So, regardless of how rare Jesters are used nowadays, and how silly the proposition is in a mini, even in the 0.001% this is the case then lynching a Jester IS the right thing to do.

Also, all the arguments that revolve around "too scummy to be scum" or "too bad he can't be scum" are really "boring" (pun intended). Un;ess you know someone IS bad the argument doesn't hold much water if any. If it had any merit then I guess I'll switch to a Kain Tepes (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) style every time I roll scum and will win every single one of them.

The question here is: WHY IS DESPERADO TOWN (as opposed to why he is "not mafia", and especially so when we already know there is one 3P slot in the game.

[Almost50]

p-edit: I don't know about any Jester fads, but there was one in my last bastard game, I don't like the idea of someone winning for successfully trolling town.

And you like more the idea of keeping someone alive to F the Town??

[Almost50]

UNVOTE:

Somehow I believe Desperado's claim. I now have to reread the thread and find me someone to vote.

@Desp: So you DID deliver under pressure. Now I know how to make you talk when you're Town. I have yet to see scum!you though.

[Almost50]

Otherwise, the role would be very liable to kill innocents.

Yes it is. I hadn't even thought of a strategy to play that one (I only saw it once before in a game NOT on MS, and it wasn't my role).

P-edit: My best guess is they can't. Desp is the instructor. His disciples are probably interns who can perform the action themselves but cannot pass it on. Else, it could very well be "everyone is able to KILL", and especially so if it fall into the hands of scum. All they need to do is protect 3 different people and not shoot at all.

[Almost50]

VOTE: javajoe

Back to this. Maybe he will talk now. And besides, he never committed himself to avoid outside RVS. In fact, going through his ISO I can only tell he has a TR on Chicka but hasn't stated reads on anyone else.

[Almost50]

*he never committed himself to a VOTE

[Almost50]

I'd be interested in knowing:

a) Why do you TR java (I have him at null)
b) What do you have on GL (considering he is currently widely Town read).
c) I know Snarky is like this as either alignment, but will you be willing to vote there if we can't seem to find a better option? A compromise lynch, maybe?

[Almost50]

a) His claim against having any protective role felt like a newbie-ish town thing to say so early in the day. I could be wrong, but it's mostly a tone thing.

I understand the phrase "tone thing", but I disagree on claiming not being protective. It could very well be scum not wanting to be NK'd by the 3P (it that's a Serial Killer) or 3P not wanting to be NK'd by scum.

Let me make it clearer for you: Let's say you are a SURVIVOUR (although I wouldn't want to lynch a survivour as long as we don't have to). There were no NKs on N0, and thus the Scum know there to be something/someone that stopped it. That someone is most likely to be a protective (the something could be BP). They also know whom they targeted, and in addition to themselves that's 4 players out of the pool. 9 others could be a Doc/JK/RB or whatever, and nobody knows any better at the start of the game.

As a Survivour; your aim is to stay alive, so you willingly remove yourself from the likely NK pool.

Of course, it COULD still be a newbie move, so in my book that's NAI.

[Almost50]

My problem with Javaq is the lack of any reads/votes (with the exception of RVS on Chicka and then a TR on Chicka herself). This means he is probably playing to NOT upset anyone thus far. No signs of scum hunting either. I would like the opportunity to engage him and have something to read him better.

[Almost50]

My problem with Javaq is the lack of any reads/votes (with the exception of RVS on Chicka and then a TR on Chicka herself). This means he is probably playing to NOT upset anyone thus far. No signs of scum hunting either. I would like the opportunity to engage him and have something to read him better.

I am an open book since you want to engage with me. I generally town read most people and have a hard time finding scum with little information, which is why I am mainly sitting back and observing. I like to try and see not what people are voting, but why, and try to go from there. I am having trouble finding anyone suspicious, but out of the creature/boring fight I actually think boring is more likely to be town even though I was town reading chick earlier.

But it is still possible it was town vs town or scum theater.

I was just about to get the slightest of TRs on you.. until just before the bolded. The bolded though was that wave that comes and knocks down the castle you just built on the seashore.

[Almost50]

@Almost50 is your problem with what Java just said because he ended up leaving his options completly open or something else?

I t is. Kind of. I mean, my problem was he had only one read, so he gave me 2 more, and then turned around and pulled them both back in the same post.

[Almost50]

hang on, whats up with the gingham votes?

My sentiment exactly.

[Almost50]

And a readlist:

massive: pretty townie overall. hasn't done a whole lot though.

Creature: Not a lot of big posts, but I get what he's going for and strong gut feel this is town.

Guilty: Was townposting pretty much all day, but was quick to give up on the desp wagon to split hairs over the chicka wagon. I'm wary, but this is a townread.

GD: Was very townie early on, but not having any scumreads and largely ignoring the desp wagon sits really badly with me.

Chickadee: Despite the bad / selfish play, I actually think this is town. I'm going to steal her color-coded read thing and do that here.

boring: has pinged both townie and scum. Null for now. Seems to have info about desp we don't. A good explanation for it could move this to a townread.
Rauth: I have noticed little to nothing from this one.
Javajoe: not a clue. needs more activity.

podo: leaning scum. Has had some good posts that make me think he could be town. Pretty sure he can't be the same alignment as desp.
a50: bad play, scumclaim jokes, overreacting, picking at the wrong things.. sounds like typical a50. Scumlean, but for a lot of other people this would be deathtunnel territory.
Brie: reads scum, but this will sort itself out with time given the ability.

desp: Scum as shit. The claim I guess is believable, and can be confirmed after used twice and people say "yea I got it" but I don't know. It's also not a wildly useful role I feel.

If I missed anyone they're null and I don't remember what they've said/done so far

This looks like the most fake read list that I have ever seen. Bonus town points for anyone who picks a reason or two this is the case.

VOTE: SS

[Almost50]

Alright VOTE: a50

Tell me one thing that sounds fake huh? One thing you disagree with? Or do you just wanna shoot someone down because your scumread?

I'll tell you when everybody else has weighed in. You're going down for this, I promise.

[Almost50]

We'll see. You basically scum claimed in that read list, but I'll let you dig your own grave even further. Just watch.

[Almost50]

OK.. so nobody's online to respond? I'll just go ahead and make my case then:

Let's start with the fact he's stating a Town Lean on Chicka and still voting her. Then the fact his strongest SR is on Desp and he is voting WITH him.

Then, the strongest Town read on the guy with the least posts (tied with Rautherdir @14 posts at that time)? And “I have noticed little to nothing from this one.” on Rauther? Just ISO the two together and tell me how you get a STRONG TR on one and a NULL on the other for basically doing the same thing.

Back to SR on Desp, when he also says the claim is believable. Mechanically speaking, if Desp is Scum then he MUST be fake claiming. Otherwise, the game is broken because scum!Desp can just pass his ability to his scum team and have 3 kills a night starting N1. It's either or and there's no inbetween.

Shall I go on? Nah. I think I made my point abunduntly clear.

[Almost50]

Still waiting to hear what that scumclaim you're talking about was.

The scum claim IS that you seem to have pulled that read list out of thin air. It makes no sense at all, and I know you have better reads when you're Town.

And a scum role?? It certainly canNOT be, and I've explained why. It makes no sense to give scum 3 NKs starting N1 (Desp+his lonely disciple both target one player each while the 3rd scum performs the factional kill).

It could be argued that Desp might be the 3P here, but his role would be overpowered AND he played it bad. Since he canNot be group Scum he is likely to be the Scum NK, which means he would be counting on his disciple to protect him tonight, but then scum may decide this to be the case and shoot somewhere else and then his disciple would kill him instead (i.e. it's a WIFOMy situation as hell).

Then again, if he was 3P then why didn't he use his ability to kill someone on N0? That also points to Desp being Town.

So, the ONLY reason you might have still scum read him for is if you thought he was faking, but you didn't. You said the claim could be legit. Legit claim = Town!Desp anyway you slice it. You can't tell me scum started the game with 2 kills and didn't use either of them.

[Almost50]

VOTE: Almost50

1. Despe

rado*

(half strike)

2. Beethoven0203 TheBrie*

3. massive*

4. SnarkySnowman*

5. Creature*

6. Joey_ Almost50*
7. Rautherdir*
8. boring*

9. Javajoe24*

10. GinghamDog*

11. podoboq*

12. GuiltyLion*

13. Chickadee*

Um.. erm.. aaa .. like.. can you at least explain the read list? Are you ready for that yet?

[Almost50]

I mean I'm already voting one of them if you want a short answer, but REALLY.. I want YOU to provide ME with reasoning, and not the other way around.

[Almost50]

- I don't get why SS wagon is losing pace.
- I don't get why Chicka's wagon is a thing.
- I don't get why there are votes on me.
- I could get behind a massive wagon, but I'm far from being convinced of him flipping either side. He is NULL to me.

I think Desperado, Chicka, podoq & GL are all Town (varying degrees of confidence there), and I really think this is Scum!SS, so if I go for massive it's only be a compromise so as to get a lynch.

P.S. 2 of my TRs are voting one of my TRs, who is in turn voting with me on my strongest SR. What a mess!

[Almost50]

- I don't get why SS wagon is losing pace.
- I don't get why Chicka's wagon is a thing.
- I don't get why there are votes on me.
- I could get behind a massive wagon, but I'm far from being convinced of him flipping either side. He is NULL to me.

I think Desperado, Chicka, podoq & GL are all Town (varying degrees of confidence there), and I really think this is Scum!SS, so if I go for massive it's only be a compromise so as to get a lynch.

P.S. 2 of my TRs are voting one of my TRs, who is in turn voting with me on my strongest SR. What a mess!

Could you make a case for any of these points? Or is it just your own personal complaint list to reference later?

You make it sound like I haven't been posting or making any cases. ISO me.

[Almost50]

I think Desperado, Chicka, podoq & GL are all Town

There's a person missing from this list who I basically consider conftown. Do you know who it is, and why are they not on your list?

I don't usually include myself in my own reads.

But seriously, I can only "guess" you're referring to Creature, and of so I don't have him anywhere near the "conf!Town" zone.

[Almost50]

We are running out of time, what are we doing? I am happy with a SS lynch over the others, but I will settle for either a massive or chickadee lynch if everyone comes to an agreement. We need to work out what we are going to do though.

GDI! Let the record show that I'm only settling for a massive lynch as a compromise, and that I still SR SS more.

VOTE: massive

[Almost50]

And I still think Chicka's wagon sucks. The thing is I TR both Desp & GL, so if there's scum there then it's massive.

[Almost50]

Why is Rautherdir being targeted with the lynch? I only voted massive as a compromise to Snarky, and now you want me to compromise in the compromise? Not gonna happen.

And that Ascetic claim could easily be verified. Desp can target him. If Rauther dies then he is lying about his role and has brought it on himself regardless of his alignment. If he lives then the protection failed and he IS Ascetic.

What I want to know is what info do we get from Rauther flipping GREEN? I understand that him flipping RED can give us directions, but what if he doesn't? Either Massive or Snarky would give more info as either alignment IMHO.

Anyway, I do NOT have a strong read on Rauther, but I do find it odd nobody's defending him at all. If he is 3P that may explain it a little, but it STILL won't give us any info regarding the main Scum team.

[Almost50]

If Rauther does flip red, take a closer look at his interactions with Almost50.

Also worth noting that I've watched Almost50 come online several times since the Rauther wagon started, yet he hasn't weighed in on it yet. Just saying.

What interactions are you talking about? What do you make of them?

And I's always online for as long as my PC is on. It doesn't mean I'm sitting before my screen, and when I do it doesn't mean I'm browsing MafiaScum, and when I do it doesn't mean I'm watching this thread in particular.

P-edit: I didn't say he's TOWN. I said we won't get much info from him flipping Town, or even 3P. That's what I said.

[Almost50]

Claim: Supersaint

SHIT! And that's why you didn't have to LIE about your role. Boring's behaviour around the hammer doesn't look too scummy either, so that's probably 2 Townies down on D1.

Oh, I'd better shut up now and wait for the flips.

[Almost50]

And also, what More would we gain from massive, SS, or anyone else flipping green than rauth. This arguemwnt I have always found flawed

Who pushed Snarky the hardest? Who defended him? Who sheeped on his wagon silently?? Same with Massive.

Rauth we had a wagon forming on him in less than 24 hours. He went from NO VOTES to HAMMER in less than a day. Who do you think is suspicious on his wagon??? In a vacuum I'd say EVERYBODY!

[Almost50]

Hopefully we get lucky tonight...

You have a date????

[Almost50]

I'm going to have to sit on this for a while and think things over. This is too complicated for me to grasp it all at once.

Points of interest:

1- TheBrie precisely said 9-3-1 yesterday, so there was only ONE GOO as of the end of D1.
2- podoboq did NOT have an ACTIVE ability to recruit. His was PASSIVE. He had to be VISITED by Town to convert them.
3- [deleted] I'm not sure of this one, so I'll just ask the mod below.
4- I believe podo was shot by scum for crumbing a TPR that had a "mechanical reason" to TR SS. They must've thought he was an informative (Tracker/Watcher/Follower..etc.)
5- GD could have granted one or two players BP vests already. The question is if he had given them to Town players (so as to make it harder for scum to win with their NKs).
6- I killed GD with my CPR (Sorry) I thought he had been very manipulative while rereading after the day ended. He had SS as the scummiest player in the game at one point, but then decided he was voting between Chika and massive (and he did put massive @L-1) only to do a 180 on Rauther and push him to the lynch.

@Mod: Does the "recruited goo" have the ability to recruit too? And if not; do they die when the original recruiter die?

[Almost50]

@GL: I'm the one who got the CPR ability from Desp. And I didn't target podo (although I did think about it). The reason was trying to outsmart scum. podo crumbed so hard and obvious, bur I thought scum would expect a CPR to protect him so wouldn't shoot there and will have a free second kill. Turned out they did and they still got their second kill anyway.

I'm NOT using that again.

[Almost50]

VOTE: Chickadee

That's a scum claim.

No Scum, in their right mind, would unvote the only counter wagon to theirs.

I still have questions about the goo (you don't get to meet those much in games, and the one I met had a different mechanic).

@Mod: When someone is turned into a goo, do they lose their previous role/abilities?

[Almost50]

I'm 100% sure TheBrie is not a goo. Her role had no "visiting" ability, so she could not have come in contact with podo on either night.

Also Chicka obviously used he ability on massive, and I'm assuming she didn't use it on N0 because she wasn't a double voter on D1.

So there's two players we know mechanically cannot be goo.

If the answer to my question in the previous post is yes, then I can clear myself and Desp by acting on the same target tonight, or even better .. Desp could be confirmed today by reaching someone and then I could be confirmed by night using the ability on the same target Desp will.

But this is all concerning the goo alone. And if we only look for that we would easily lose to Scum.

If we scum hunt though and it turns out we do have a goo alive then we will lose to that. Hmmmm

The only way to keep the goo contained is to limit the use of night action, but that is clearly sub-optimal, and I'm at a loss.

[Almost50]

So, Desp's role could not have been Scum. He started the game as Town. Then he taught me that ability, and I don't see goo (even if they retain their abilities) giving it to me over Podo, so he was still Town by the end of D1. He had numerously declared he won't be using his CPR at N1, so I still have my strongest TR on him.

Brie & Chicka come next. They both cannot be goo, and while Chicka's role could be either Town or Scum I was (and still am) TRing her. Brie's role is Town, because Scum don't need to know how many Townies are out there, do they?

Can anyone make an argument for anyone else so that AI can take them off my lynch pool and work with PoE?

[Almost50]

I think we could make the Black Goos claim (if they have more than one) and we all target them.

Why do I feel like you're softing goo yourself?

OK, let me roll with this out-of-the-box idea: We eliminate ourselves as a TOWN faction and become a Goo faction. But then what? We will all be w/o night action. It's like we are all VTs (in that sense). Then what?

[Almost50]

Good catch, Chicka.

VOTE: Creature

I think THIS is the goo guy. His play D2 is super strange.

So this is literally the "you better not die as town" game.

This was the first thing he posted in response to the opening post by the mod.

Then we talk and lay ideas and some vote/unvote people, and all he has to say is:

It must suck to be town and die when there's a black goo around.

He even was the one who had the answer to my question to the mod:

Black Goo (cult; super-rare; 4+ players): Whenever a player targets you with an action, they will join your cult as another black goo.

And he followed that up with the proposition:

I think we could make the Black Goos claim (if they have more than one) and we all target them.

This sequence of posts lead me to believe Creature is actually promoting the cult. He is neglecting everything else.

I could lynch this, or we could all agree NOT to target him tonight and try to lynch Mafia instead. What do you think?

[Almost50]

I won't bother black goo hunting for today.

Yet you haven't said a single thing outside the Goo subject.

[Almost50]

You know what?

UNVOTE:

I've just realized Goo!Creature will HAVE to side by Town. He can't convert Scum, so his ONLY chance is to get Town to target him to spread and have a majority.

[Almost50]

Town: Desperado, Chickadee, TheBrie
Goo: Creature

Lynch pool: Massive, Snarky, GL, Java

Does anyone thing GL+Massive could be scum together and ended up voting Chicka on their own by the end of D1? If yes, then one of Snarky/Java is scum. If no, then both Snarky & Java are scum. Take your pick.

[Almost50]

Did you miss my soft claim A50? I had a question for my three main town reads including yourself I would like an answer to

Oh. I forgot. It's not a conclusive Town Role, but I don't see the scum!motive behind the claim.

OK.. that leaves me with massive, GL & SS.

And no.. I don't think you should out who got the BP. That would only help Scum plan their NK.

[Almost50]

As for Chicka, I TR'd her from D1 and I don't see anything scummy in her ISO. If you have something precise to point out I'd be obliged.

[Almost50]

@Chicka: Who would you be willing to lynch between GL & massive?

[Almost50]

In fact, forget I mentioned their names. Who would you be willing to lynch? Period.

[Almost50]

And while agree trying to "find" the goo -if existent- is anti-town at this point, developing a strategy to counter it is not. At least I'm not promoting the idea of deliberately targeting it and giving up on my Town win con.

[Almost50]

@Chicka:

No I wasn't. Please read. My post (the one you quoted and responded to) was in response to Creature's post just above it. You seem to have missed his suggestion and worked with my response instead.

@Brie:

I don't think podo would have stick out his neck that far to defend his buddy, lest SS got lynched on the spot (and he sure did look like the lynch at the time). podo said he had "mechanical" reason. I took that to be a Tracker/Follower/Watcher who saw SS visit someone who didn't die. However, Java is now crumbing Tracker/Watcher, and SS said he doesn't have a visiting ability, so podo might have been a Vanilla Cop (thus the uncertainty).

[Almost50]

Did massive claim anything?

Not to my knowledge.

@Brie/Chicka:

Yes. As scum I would have had to confirm Desp regardless. The question is why would I not kill HIM at night? I mean, if I was scum then my team has 2 kills now, so I can safely eliminate Desp to guarantee the Town doesn't have a kill of it's own.

The only reason Desp is alive is Scum are counting on him to give THEM the CPR technique, and THEN they can kill him.

I always say: If you want to catch Scum you've got to think like Scum. Put yourself in their shoes and figure out why something was/wasn't done.

[Almost50]

Also, the point about defending Chicka for Town cred is legit on the surface, but then why have I pushed SS and Creature in the past and am pushing GL/massive now? They can't be all my Scum p's so Town cred to be gained from flipping one of them. Furthermore, if we're flipping one of them then Chicka isn't flipping either, so there goes my town cred down the toilet.

Finally, if you think I'm busing (again; for Town cred), then why aren't you helping me bus my SCUM buddies? Seriously. It's still in town's best interest to lynch scum who are getting bused by their p.

[Almost50]

Chill. Still thinking things through. I haven't voted for you.

Geez, I'm not worried. I'm just trying to help you think things through. Unless you want me to keep quiet and let you figure things on your own.

[Almost50]

I do have this one problem, Podo can't have been a cop then become Goo. Since there was only 1 3P at the start of D1, he would have had to be a day cop who targetted Goo.

My working theory is he was a VANILLA Cop. A VC gets their result in the form of Vanilla/Not Vanilla. Mafia Goons and Basic Werewolves also return "Vanilla" to the VC (but not to the Neapolitan who specifically checks if the target is Vanilla TOWN).

So, according to that theory, podo checked SS on N0, and got Vanilla, so someone with not special abilities (which coincides with SS' claim to have no visiting powers). I could be wrong and podo could've been any other role, so don't take it fro granted, but that's the case then podo targeted the goo on N1 and got turned. He was targeted by the Scum NK himself on N1 too, and as kills usually resolve last then technically he was killed after he was turned.

[Almost50]

@GL:

I probably should admit that my reasons to TR Chicka appear much weaker than yours to SR her in a vacuum. I felt Chicka was being pushed for weak sauce on D1 (like her "kudos" for not dying comment). It also felt like she was being relentlessly pushed and no one seemed to care or oppose that push. That gave me the impression she was Town and Scum don't mind letting her burn.

Her concern about revealing "too much info" in early game also looked town-motivated to me.

In VC 1.08 she had 4 votes on her {Chickadee (4) [L-3]: Desperado, SnarkySnowman, boring, Creature}, and you would notice I had objected to the last duo voting there with unconvincing reasoning in post 112

From that moment on I guess it became a psychological/emotional conviction of mine that Chicka had to be Town. Then podo added the 5th vote on her and refused to explain. It was page 6 still and Chicka was put @L-2 already.

Then Desp comes in and says she's scum because she coloured her readlist??

I mean, it really didn't help when there was not one legit reason made to vote her early on, so I guess I skipped the rest of it.

I now realize she was the 4th vote on Rauther although she had him as one of the greens (the 2 people she felt most confident in them being Town) in that readlist.

I also see that today only you and Desp have voted her, so it could be that Scum are feeling more confident in not bussing, but then WHO are Scum on her 5-players wagon? boring flipped green already, and there's enough reason to believe podo was town by then.

Or maybe, that wagon had no Group Scum on it? On that case 2 scums must be in me, TheBrie, Java & massive. Unless Snarky was bussing there and is not bussing today, in which case only one more scum remains in the 4 persons listed.

But that's all assuming Chicka will flip red for certain, so what if she doesn't? We KNOW she's not goo, so we know we either enter the night as 5T vs 3S or -more likely- 4T/3S/1G, and if Scum successfully kill a Townie we lose majority already.

[Almost50]

There's no need to rush things though. The day is still young and I would rather we thought everything through thoroughly before we decided on the lynch.

[Almost50]

Alright. I think you managed to confuse me enough. How is massive confirmed to you? I get both TheBrie and Desp are Town, but for you to include yourself in the possible scum teams and leave massive out is weird to say the least.

And LOL @ me being scum with you & Chicka.

[Almost50]

I have been thinking, and while I am most confident in chicka being scum, I am almost as confident in A50 being scum, and he has a killing ability that gives scum 2 kills a night, we need to eliminate that second kill today! Desperado should kill chicka tonight with his CPR ability.

THIS is what I've been waiting for.

Scum have given up on Desp giving them their 2nd kill, so they are pushing for my lynch AND trying to use Desp's CPR as a second kill for them. With 1 mislynch + 2 NKs scum win (3-3 or 2-1-3).

VOTE: Javajoe

Now I'm certain Chicka is Town, and with JJ already on her wagon I'd say GL is a Town lean too (though his pusj on her is giving me pause).

I'm also very wary of the fact jj was pushing Chicka bc she stole massive's vote (i.e. I strongly believe massive to be group scum too), but I'm not quite sure who their 3rd could be.

[Almost50]

Notice how jj is "ordering" a kill on Chicka? And when she flips green he'll resort to his initial "Desperado's not confirmed" to get him lynched. That's why the vote thief needs to go to guarantee no fuck-ups in their final day plan.

[Almost50]

It looks like "in order to find scum try to think like one" went way over your head, buddy. I'd even have to salute you for a semi-flawless plan.

[Almost50]

Now I'm certain Chicka is Town, and with JJ already on her wagon I'd say GL is a Town lean too (though his pusj on her is giving me pause).

I'm also very wary of the fact Jj was pushing Chicka bc she stole massive's vote (i.e. I strongly believe massive to be group scum too), but I'm not quite sure who their 3rd could be.

wait what

how did Chicka go back to a townread again

You've never actually responded to any of my reasons for why she's scum

She's Town because Jj asked for her to be vigged. I mean, think about it (if you're town yourself). Jj's plan only works if both myself and Chicka are indeed scum. If one -just one- of us is Town then he is giving scum a free second kill (i.e. over the day and night cycle we will have 2 town flips vs 1 scum flip). I would have still been very skeptical if he had only called for my lynch over Chicka (yeah, a misguided townie could do that), but to call for BOTH of our heads is very VERY likely to come from a scum mindset. So, if Jj is scum and ordering a vig on Chicka then she must be Town. We already know she's not goo, and scum want to kill TOWN not goo (because scum can't be turned, so are not even threatened by goo).

Do you want to know how manipulative Jj is?? Watch for the next post.

[Almost50]

possible scum teams calculated by having no more than 1 person bussing a scum:

A50, Chicka, GL
A50, Chicka, SS
A50, Chicka, Creature
A50, Chicka, Javajoe
Chicka, GL, SS
Chicka, GL, Javajoe
Chicka, SS, Creature,
A50, GL, Javajoe

Chicka -7/8
A50 - 5/8
GL- 4/8
Javajoe - 3/8
SS - 3/8
Creature - 2/8

I may have missed a pairing, but that was all I could find where only one scum was bussed by a partner, let me know if I missed one and I will add it. I think this clearly shows that Chicka is the correct lynch today.

Wow, I was more groggy than I thought, I missed one that includes massive. Although if massive is scum, based on my hypothesis this would be the only possible scum team.

Other possible team:
Massive, SS, creature

This puts the total at

Chicka - 7/9
A50 - 5/9
GL - 4/9
SS - 4/9
Javajoe - 3/9
Creature - 3/9
Massive - 1/9

Which means chicka is still the best option for a lynch today.

Now, let's say we BOTH flip SCUM (me & Chicka). He has GL, SS & creature all lined up for lynch.
But -of course- he would be conf!Town in that case, and besides I know my own alignment, so not applicable.

Let's say I flip scum (again, I know it's not the case) and she flips Town.

According to his own analysis

, the ONLY team I cam be scum NOT with her is with HIM and GL.

Now let's consider the case where I'm Town and she is Scum. Again, GL, SS & creature are lynch candidates.

Finally, me & Chicka are TOWN. Whoops! Sorry. It must be massive, SS, creature then.

Notice in that case that he opts to CLEAR HIMSELF after we both flip green?? He also clears YOU (GL) on that basis. BRILLIANT. I guess that's why he went back to add that last team formation, as he realized his initial liat would have made him look ridiculous if he pushed us both and we both flipped Town, which he KNOWS to be the case.

So, I will counter Jj's move. I don't think this is going to be the best move, but -at least- it's better than his BS. Flip me, but do NOT vig Chicka. Force him to kill her himself. Don't give Scum a free kill (and easy win).

Agree?

[Almost50]

Oh right, A50 probably shot one of podo/Gingham. Either he shot podo (aka he's goo) or he shot Gingham (and then I wonder why he thinks I'm town who killed podo and became goo).

You seriously need to read FOR COMPREHENSION.

1-If I'm SCUM I could not have been turned goo.
2-If I'm Town, the turning resolves before the kill, meaning I would have been turned BEFORE I could kill podo.
3-If I'm neither Scum nor goo, there's no need for me to lie.
4-I didn't say you KILLED podo. I said you TARGETED him, but SCUM also shot him.

[Almost50]

Oh right, A50 probably shot one of podo/Gingham. Either he shot podo (aka he's goo) or he shot Gingham (and then I wonder why he thinks I'm town who killed podo and became goo).

I believe he thinks you were goo and Podo targetted you last night before getting killed by scum.
Nobody thought you shot Podo.

THAT. I'm REALLY pissed now and totally out of focus though. podo did defend SS for a reason, so it was him who was turned and not Creature.

[Almost50]

VOTE: Chickadee

even if Almost is scum, if scum kill and we are in 6-2-1 tomorrow, Chick can steal from town to make it effectively 5-3-1 and give scum control of the lynch. There's like a 20% chance A50 is town and given the attempted quickhammer I don't want to take that risk anymore.

Mister, if scum kill we will be 4-2-1 tomorrow. There are 9 alive players already (4 flopped already), so tomorrow it's 7 (or 6 if Desp does go with the CPR on Chicka).

[Almost50]

I believe he thinks you were goo and Podo targetted you last night before getting killed by scum.

I thought only who targeted podo would be recruited.

podo was TOWN and HE targeted you, so don't try to play obtuse. We ALL know you're not.

[Almost50]

I've given up on trying to convince anyone I'm town. I'm an easy target, and mafia has been running with it, and town is letting them. So whatever.

Yeah, and that's why you tried to hammer the ONLY PERSON who has been defending you. BRILLIANT!

I mean, you believe scum are running you up? Look who you voted WITH. They both moved from your wagon to mine. Do you even THINK before you act or even talk??

[Almost50]

like just think of it this way

Chick took massive's vote and then tried to use it to hammer another

different

player without any input from massive

in what world is that town-motivated?

You know what? Fuck it. We're probably losing this game anyway, and I might have been a jerk all along.

VOTE: Chicka

[Almost50]

I don't know if Java would bus his p so hard. Anyone with experience with him can please enlighten me? I know RC would have, and I know Titus would never have but neither is playing in this game.

[Almost50]

Also, it just hit me. If I was Scum with Chicka, and I'm the one with the CPR ability, why the FUCK do I defend her that hard and then she jumps on me like that?? Are scum trying to get rid of their 2nd kill??? I probably should have got her lynched already, regardless of her alignment if I was scum.

Let me try to rephrase that:

Scum!Me would have absolutely no reason to defend Town!Chicka. NONE. Why keep a Town vote thief alive?
Scum!Me would have felt obliged to bus Scum!Chicka and get to the night phase. 5-2-1 isn't all that bad considering I was being widely TR'd myself. Tomorrow we would have been 4-2-1 and one mislynch is all we needed to win still.

[Almost50]

Now, onto my concerns, it concerns me that chicka tried to quick hammer A50 because I know that there is a greater than 70% chance that chicka is scum. This can only be resolved in the fact that chicka knows that A50 is doomed and trying to get some town credit by hammering a scum flip.

This is the fad on this site. People get their reads and THEN try to justify them. They ignore anything that will disturb their reads and will even find a way around them.

Well, whatever. I'm @L-1, so if anyone feels like it you may hammer and get my flip already. Just please lynch Jj tomorrow for me. That's all I ask.

[Almost50]

Prodding Almost50.

Picking up prod. Didn't even know the game is still ongoing.

[Almost50]

My claim will not change your mind, so just hammer away.

I was a Compulsive Visitor. You would have seen me visiting someone each but I neither would have harmed them nor would I have gained any info from it. However, I got the CPR ability added to me during D1, and thus I had the choice to either visit someone with no effect or use the CPR on them.

[Almost50]

Btw, on N0 I targeted GL.

[Almost50]

I never said GL was goo. I explicitly said it was Creature, and only Creature.

We know it's not you (not visiting ability) and not Desp (he still had his abilities on D1). It's not GL (I visited him N0) and it isn't me (I used my CPR last night). It isn't Chicka or massive (she stole his vote), and it isn't SS (podo supposedly visited him on N0). Java supposedly knows who received a BP so is not goo either. It's Creature and he should not be targeted by Town at night.

[Almost50]

Prodding Almost50.

Picking up prod. Didn't even know the

game

is still ongoing.

Picking up prod. Didn't even know the

game

is still ongoing.

Picking up prod. Didn't even know the

game

is still ongoing.

That's what I said. It was neither a complaint nor wasn't a reference to the day.

[Almost50]

So you are saying that you thought the game had ended already?

Yes. I though I was lynched and I would expect the game to end tonight or on D3 at best if that happens. Either way the game would have come to an end for me.

Chicka was complaining about the "day" going on, which indirectly shows confidence the game would continue afterwards. She's just anxious to execute whatever actions she and/or her team have planned.

[Almost50]

We have more than 6 days left in the day, why do you and A50 sound like your want the day to end already?

Ive lost all motivation because either way y'all plan to kill me. Give me a reason not to look forward to days end.

So, you are looking forward to die???

[Almost50]

Do you agree that since both A50 and chicka are scum it is more important that we kill A50 today over chicka.

Mate, even >I< would agree to this. I'd only substitute "since" with "if". The question is NOT which lynch would be better if I was Scum. The question is whether I'm Scum to begin with. And I knew nothing would change your mind. I've played enough games with enough different players to know when someone is conf!biased. I could give you a list of players who either scum read my play style or are too stubborn to change their minds when they've developed a read already.

Let me give you a link: DoY I

Check this game and see how I got lynched in LyLo despite having shown I did things I could not have done as Scum (I was in a hydra with Not Chara). Even the Mason in that game didn't give a shit about anything I said. I just know how it goes when your mind is set.

[Almost50]

Well, this game once more proved how poor we all are at Town play. I still can't believe Snarky nor only escaped the lynch on D1, but made it all the way to LyLo. It's amazing how TOWN defends Scum all the time (and God knows I've been guilty of that more than my fair share)

[Almost50]

Dude, I was more right about him than you. I KNEW he would flip Scum (and if that happened I would have been above all suspicion)

[Almost50]

LOL.. no. We recruited GL on N0. I looked at the player list and figured GL is the one who could most likely figure me out, so I blocked him (just in case) and had SS recruit him.