Open 680.1 C9++ | Endgame

[Gamma Emerald]

I say we lynch out of Frank, Alch, Me, and Frank's Wifey. That's a decent scumpool.

Who is Frank's wife?

[Gamma Emerald]

Instead of 100, can we just do 10 and lynch Umlaut?

Why? Lol sleepy no read

Because I'm worn out after hitting nearly 100 during the practice game. Let's make D1 shorter this go around. I'm willing to compromise at 50 pages.

Why Umlaut? Because I'm voting him, that's why.

The directness here feels towny, like he's saying "I'm lazy and you'll deal with it".

[Gamma Emerald]

I say we lynch out of Frank, Alch, Me, and Frank's Wifey. That's a decent scumpool.

Who is Frank's wife?

I'm guessing shannon

[Gamma Emerald]

Also, why'd Titus have to jump in front of my shannon vote?

I very obviously telegraphed it.

It's coming. Just you wait.

What. Is. This? Me no like this post.

[Gamma Emerald]

On a serious note. VOTE: FireScreamer.

His play feels off from last game.

{FrankJaeger, Brian Skies, Narna}
{Alchemist, Green Crayons}
{davesaz, Titus, shannon, RoryMK, Necta}
{Umlaut, FireScreamer}

If FireScreamer is red, I'm willing to bet Shannon is too.

VOTE: shannon

Is anyone allowed to ask why or are you wanting to engage Shannon herself?

Also, the likelyhood of mafia last game being mafia this game will actually probably be unlikely. So I'm pretty confident in the team being green this time around. But TB definitely rolled some of our bloc from last game as red this one. I'm willing to bet on it being FS of all people.

This is Gambler's Fallacy, and the part about one of the block being scum is against the rules (mod influence)

[Gamma Emerald]

@GC, if you're paranoid about being buddied. Look at Umlaut's question to you about a Narna and me duo. Like legit. He's trying to get on your good side. Also for being the math guy, he's not even looking at the numbers for this. Just sucking up to you to mislynch D1. I'm a betting man and I will bet in odds when they are favourable to catching scum even if they act townie. They can never hide from probability.

Dude seems to be loading his message here. Ew.

[Gamma Emerald]

Yes, and the ratio between them is 30:9, or 10:3.

Extrapolating this, I feel CommKnight's math is a massive circle jerk, since it all totals 19:3 essentially, which is the initial proposed ratio of town to scum in his math.

[Gamma Emerald]

Which for anyone who likes probability.... 23 times at a 1/2 chance... is 1/8,388,608. (Assuming I predict heads/tails from the start and go right through before the initial flip). While I had a 1/2 chance every time the coin was flipped... the overall probability of being right every single time...

To this, I think you're not getting that you're ruining your own argument here. We don't care about who was what in both games. We care about THIS game.

[Gamma Emerald]

If this is town vs town and you tunnel me down scum will just hop on the side that is making sense. That isn't your side.

I'm not scumreading this but WHAT???

[Gamma Emerald]

Oh by the way, I'm pretty sure I live my day to day life without ever benefiting from math.

Why do kids even need to take algebra again? lol that's what phones are for.

You use basic algebra every time you calculate sales tax, store sales, coupons, or compare products.

[Gamma Emerald]

@GE, have you seen Titus this quiet as town before? If not join the wagon?

Not really, but A) I've been gone a while and B) there could be several explanations for Titus's play, like maybe she's trying to let other people lead the discussion.

[Gamma Emerald]

@GE, have you seen Titus this quiet as town before? If not join the wagon?

I'd like to step in and say I have seen Titus this quiet before as town. I wouldn't worry about it unless it becomes a pattern throughout the entire game.

That's actually really useful ty

[Gamma Emerald]

Also, why'd Titus have to jump in front of my shannon vote?

I very obviously telegraphed it.

It's coming. Just you wait.

What. Is. This? Me no like this post.

GC, can you explain why you posted this?

[Gamma Emerald]

Um was a ruling ever given on me because I don't think that came anywhere near trust telling.

You're alright

[Gamma Emerald]

Oh come on
When will that be

[Gamma Emerald]

Sloshed Saturday today, huh?

[Gamma Emerald]

What's up with the sharks btw?

[Gamma Emerald]

Comm, I'll ask you this: what your read on your former scumpartners, forgoing the statistics talk? What do you think of them this game?

[Gamma Emerald]

Why do you scumread Brian?

[Gamma Emerald]

lynching based on false logic =/= townreading on false logice for d1.

Apples do not equal pears.

TThat is my point,no ?

And mine was that both are equally irellevant to the argument. I don't care if X does not equal y if both X and y are bad

Elaborate.

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm kinda SRing Brian rn, for his pushing the not-trust tell. Seems like he was trying to get a player out of the way.

[Gamma Emerald]

That's not his name

[Gamma Emerald]

Who are you talking to?
I know what I'm using for a name if me and Brian hydra tho

[Gamma Emerald]

FS are you a bringer alt

[Gamma Emerald]

What Homestuck
He's not an alt

[Gamma Emerald]

LMAOOOOOOO

[Gamma Emerald]

Partly by the case from GC, and partly because I'm tired of being a sitting duck:
VOTE: Brian Skies

[Gamma Emerald]

Who are you talking to?
I know what I'm using for a name if me and Brian hydra tho

Really wanna know what this name would be though.

Gamma Skies, OBVIOUSLY

[Gamma Emerald]

There's a part of me that wants to say he was modspewed Town but the better half of me is saying mod could have done that for scum too.

I know ThinkBig alerted me (the mod) when a player claimed scum with a partner in another game, even though he knew that player was town, on the basis that it would have been gamethrowing if that player were telling the truth. So he understands the need to take the same action regardless of actual alignment. I'm not 100% sure this is the same thing since FS never actually claimed to be using a trust tell.

I remember that

[Gamma Emerald]

Why alchemist

[Gamma Emerald]

I feel like GC/Alchemist is T v T.

[Gamma Emerald]

I feel like GC/Alchemist is T v T.

Why do you still think GC is Town after all that?

I can see his logic fairly well. It doesn't seem convoluted or disingenuous.

[Gamma Emerald]

GC seems to be trying to engage Titus. Also, apologies for causing this trouble, since I noticed GC stated this happened because of my questioning.

[Gamma Emerald]

Frank and Dave, any thoughts?

[Gamma Emerald]

Yo Brian
I'm voting you, whadaya think?

[Gamma Emerald]

I guess it means the wagon is close to hammer

[Gamma Emerald]

Let me rephrase:
Brian, you said that GC's logic was scum logic, and I voted based on it. Do you think I'm Mafia?

[Gamma Emerald]

@Brian: I asked to assist my read on you. I like your response along with the fact that you came to a similar conclusion about the GC/Alchemist argument, so
UNVOTE: Brian Skies
Will wait for a VC before voting again.

[Gamma Emerald]

*raises hand meekly*

[Gamma Emerald]

CK, I think you don't really get things. Instead of saying "I blame the GC voters for the lack of support of a FS lynch", put effort in to convince people.

[Gamma Emerald]

Yo Frank what's up

[Gamma Emerald]

Yo Frank what's up

A good post.

Not sure if this is serious.
@FS: Can we talk a bit?

[Gamma Emerald]

Yo Frank what's up

A good post.

Not sure if this is serious.
@FS: Can we talk a bit?

I'll be around on and off for a while. Yes we can.

What do you think about Shannon and Titus right now?

[Gamma Emerald]

No one cares. You're spamming the game you two.

They're talking about YOU, yaknoe.

[Gamma Emerald]

BTW I noticed Rory was on earlier
What's up?

[Gamma Emerald]

Ugh, I hate games that devolve into camps...

Define the camps as you see them please.

I'll do that if we ever get close to lynching someone.

Comm is at L-2

[Gamma Emerald]

FS do you have any questions for me?

[Gamma Emerald]

Alright:
davesaz - I'm a bit put off by how much he townreads me. Slight scum.
Narna - The stream of consciousness feeling I'm getting feels towny.
shannon - Reads seems a bit disconnected, slight scum read
FrankJaeger - Not much from him right now, null rn.
Alchemist21 - Seems town, though a little dense.
Green Crayons - Speaks rather freely. Towny.
Brian Skies - I had some issues with his actions earlier but he explained himself well, and he reached a similar conclusion about GC/Alchemist, so now somewhat Town.
Titus - Seems disengaged rn. Null-town.
RoryMK - Seems disengaged, but he passed by the thread a little while ago, so null-scum.
Umlaut - Not sure about him, I feel like we're resonating well on CommKnight, but not much else
CommKnight - The comments about not lynching his former scumbuddies is really weird, but I'm more disturbed by the voting of a townread for a claim. Would vote, but I am not ready for a claim right now.
FireScreamer - Seems like town, do like the open discussion of scumplay as a sign of not caring about preserving scum strategies.

[Gamma Emerald]

Follow up @shannon: why did you initially townread CommKnight?

[Gamma Emerald]

Expand on why Alchemist feels town and why Titus feels slightly town.

Pretend that a genie tells you that Dave is 100% town, how would you justify his townread on you?

Alchemist seems genuine because I can understand what his logic is.
Titus feels slight Town since I'd expect a Scum to try more.
I'm not the one who has to justify townreads on me dude.

You're welcome to ask me at any time. The answer is not an especially hard one.

Well what is it?

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: RoryMK
Talk

[Gamma Emerald]

Hey Shannon can we chat?

[Gamma Emerald]

What is your opinion on the GC/Alchemist issue?
BTW feel free to ask me questions as well.

[Gamma Emerald]

Pardon? I don't really see how my actions can be construed that way.

[Gamma Emerald]

What is the specific issue here?

[Gamma Emerald]

Well, at least I'm now actively engaged thanks to that wild suspicion thrown my way.

[Gamma Emerald]

Shannon are you going to actually try to discuss with me more or are we past that hill?

[Gamma Emerald]

Narna ur drunk

[Gamma Emerald]

Shannon, talk with me about why you suspect me. You were still talking with me for like one post and then you left and haven't returned to my question. What exactly is your issue with my actions?
FS, I have some idea why Dave would townread me, but I don't want to let it out before he explains himself.

[Gamma Emerald]

What is the specific issue here?

Answer this question Shannon.

[Gamma Emerald]

I guess he appreciated my effort.

[Gamma Emerald]

What is the specific issue here?

Answer this question Shannon.

The specific issue is that it was you who started the whole GC vs Alchemist shit show we've been seeing the past umpteen pages.

Long long ago, in a post known as 151, Titus voted me without giving a reason. GC got mad at Titus for doing that, because he wanted to vote me first, and Titus didn't give a reason for the vote. Alchemist got involved, and started asking me to justify my actions.

That looks, to me, like the start of a wagon on me. Except it wasn't. Titus didn't come back to answer GC's questions, the wagon moved on, and Alchemist unvoted me.

Much later, these names popped up again.

In 390, Titus calls GC scum for whining. There are three naked votes on GC shortly after. A shonky looking wagon, from my POV.

You followed that up, not by asking Titus why she'd continued to evade GC's questions, but by accusing GC of not even asking follow up questions. And that's plainly false, and you can see it in GC's ISO.

Then Alchemist got involved again, and said he didn't think Titus had a case to answer because it didn't even look like GC was suspicious of me. My problems with this are that he didn't bring it up at the time (he waited for your prompting), and that he refused to accept a reasonable explanation from GC.

So: My issue with you is that you waited until a very opportune moment to bring up GC's supposed failing re: Titus, the point you made was false, and it gave Alchemist an in to really wagon GC.

If you're

not

directly involved, you should join me in looking at Alch and Titus very closely because this is really bad stuff.

Thank you for answering my question. I was a bit suspicious of you before since you seemed to be dodging it. I'll review the things you mentioned.

[Gamma Emerald]

Also, why'd Titus have to jump in front of my shannon vote?

I very obviously telegraphed it.

It's coming. Just you wait.

What. Is. This? Me no like this post.

GC, can you explain why you posted this?

I posted this because it felt suspicious, but it felt too on the table to seem scummy. I didn't intend to stir shit up, just to sort out GC. I don't res all ever accusing GC of not asking questions.

[Gamma Emerald]

I guess he appreciated my effort.

What effort? Like you've proactively done very little.

I feel that way too, but when I came in I sorta tryharded.

[Gamma Emerald]

Titus can you explain those pls.

[Gamma Emerald]

Titus stop with the "no good case D1" shit pls it's a headache

[Gamma Emerald]

I just want A case, good is optional

[Gamma Emerald]

In 342, GC asks Titus again about her vote on me
GC asks follow ups in 357

Also, thanks for confirming that GC did, in fact, engage Titus on his suspicions.

It seems the sort of thing that is easily verifiable by reading GC's ISO. And then once GC's follow up question is noticed, it should have been like 'OK you did follow up but Titus didn't answer - Why didn't Titus answer, and why didn't you keep pushing it?' Not the shit show we've had.

The most damning point for me is that the whole thing was a total non-issue until Gamma brought it up like 300 posts later. And if anything I'd have expected Titus to be lambasted for not answering the question (why she voted me with no explanation) rather than Alch for not following up enough. (It is bloody hard to follow up with Titus, especially when Titus is lurking for hundreds of posts at a time).

Seriously, I think there's scum here. I was being voted by GC and then Titus, and Alch chose to engage me about my reads but not Titus for not responding to GC. Then when it became clear I was not going to be wagoned, Gamma brought up GC and Titus again, and Alch went after GC.

I mean there were three naked votes on Alch in a row, and it was at that time - 300 odd posts after Titus first voted me - that Gamma chose to ask Alch why he hadn't followed up with Titus more.

Join me here on Alch or Gamma because I'm pretty sure this is where scum's at.

What is the specific issue here?

Answer this question Shannon.

The specific issue is that it was you who started the whole GC vs Alchemist shit show we've been seeing the past umpteen pages.

Long long ago, in a post known as 151, Titus voted me without giving a reason. GC got mad at Titus for doing that, because he wanted to vote me first, and Titus didn't give a reason for the vote. Alchemist got involved, and started asking me to justify my actions.

That looks, to me, like the start of a wagon on me. Except it wasn't. Titus didn't come back to answer GC's questions, the wagon moved on, and Alchemist unvoted me.

Much later, these names popped up again.

In 390, Titus calls GC scum for whining. There are three naked votes on GC shortly after. A shonky looking wagon, from my POV.

You followed that up, not by asking Titus why she'd continued to evade GC's questions, but by accusing GC of not even asking follow up questions. And that's plainly false, and you can see it in GC's ISO.

Then Alchemist got involved again, and said he didn't think Titus had a case to answer because it didn't even look like GC was suspicious of me. My problems with this are that he didn't bring it up at the time (he waited for your prompting), and that he refused to accept a reasonable explanation from GC.

So: My issue with you is that you waited until a very opportune moment to bring up GC's supposed failing re: Titus, the point you made was false, and it gave Alchemist an in to really wagon GC.

If you're

not

directly involved, you should join me in looking at Alch and Titus very closely because this is really bad stuff.

I think Shannon's wrong about me, but her thoughts seem to be coming from a Town mindset. Also appreciate her giving us her thoughts and not just sheeping wagons when asked.

What's with the uncertainty at the beginning?

[Gamma Emerald]

I can see it, though it was not my intention. I ended up causing an avalanche of strife by shaking a tree of a question.

[Gamma Emerald]

I can see it, though it was not my intention. I ended up causing an avalanche of strife by shaking a tree of a question.

Responding to

The most damning point for me is that the whole thing was a total non-issue until Gamma brought it up like 300 posts later.

The specific issue is that it was [Gamma] who started the whole GC vs Alchemist shit show we've been seeing the past umpteen pages.

I don't get this impression.

[Gamma Emerald]

I wasn't disturbed by Titus' irresponsiveness, and I hadn't read past that post so I couldn't tell she didn't answer. I was disturbed by GC's phrasing.

[Gamma Emerald]

Yo CommKnight
Doesn't the lack of cases made suggest a passive attitude from FireScreamer? Your post not only tilted my read of FS to the scum side, it made me find a reason.
VOTE: FireScreamer

[Gamma Emerald]

well compared to last game

So we shouldn't compare your play between two games, because they're similar; but we should compare another player's play between two games, because they're different?

Becuase I admit to playing like town when I'm scum to make my similar play unreadable. You'll never know if I'm a manipulating scum or insane (but correct) town.

However, FS has no excuse for being less proactive if he rolls town again. See the difference? I was scum playing like a town-me would play. If he's town, then why would he act differently than he did as town last time?

I don't like this explanation but it makes

some

sense.

[Gamma Emerald]

Can someone who isn't Commknight explain to me why they are voting me. Can they also explain to me why they think Commknight is voting for me.

I was voting you because Comm said you were playing at a lower level than your last run, but your last post seems to counter that. I don't particularly care to read the last run so could you or Comm do a summary?

[Gamma Emerald]

I took his word. You can run down your actions last time right?

[Gamma Emerald]

Alright I see.
UNVOTE:

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma, who is your top scumread?

No clue. I've been trying to get people to bounce questions back and forth so I can for hard opinions on things.

[Gamma Emerald]

I took his word. You can run down your actions last time right?

CommKnight - The comments about not lynching his former scumbuddies is really weird, but I'm more disturbed by the voting of a townread for a claim. Would vote, but I am not ready for a claim right now.
FireScreamer - Seems like town, do like the open discussion of scumplay as a sign of not caring about preserving scum strategies.

You took the word of a scumread to vote a townread.

Not a scumread anymore. Reads change man.

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm trying to sort people actively
CK became townier when he claimed and started making more sense.

[Gamma Emerald]

Which parts made more sense and why?

His reads. He went from terrible math to more sensible content reads.

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Rory

You know. I'm going to grill you for this naked vote after what people made up for excuses to vote me.

- Case on Rory?
- What made you change?
- How confident are you he's scum?
- Looking for another claim today? Rolefisher!
- Not sure if bad play, or just terrible scum!

Come on guys, Brian must be scum, he hasn't even expanded upon this vote since then. His slot was scum last game, herp derp, all aboard the Brian wagon.

Jokevote: Brian Skies

No seriously, town got their head out of their collective asses enough to see GC is a bad choice. I honestly don't want him to claim but at the point I voted him it seemed there would have to be one from him so I wanted to get it done and over with rather than waiting around for some turtle to make up their mind they're going to put him to L1 and make him claim with less than 24 hours left.

So VOTE: FireScreamer <- It's a mistake not to put this one in the noose today.

@shannon, nah, I was just curious, maybe I should've made it clear that was non-game specific question or even taken it to pm. But I was wondering how it worked for the mods since they'd be able to modify the different topics and what not.

@Narna, I claimed VT. Claiming early is NAI (I'm not sure when people think L2 is early, we use to always claim L2, because no point in dragging it out and it prevents someone from making an excuse to cast the hammering vote).

I like this post. It shows a lot of thought, less spewwy than his posting about probabilities.

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Rory

You know. I'm going to grill you for this naked vote after what people made up for excuses to vote me.

- Case on Rory?
- What made you change?
- How confident are you he's scum?
- Looking for another claim today? Rolefisher!
- Not sure if bad play, or just terrible scum!

Come on guys, Brian must be scum, he hasn't even expanded upon this vote since then. His slot was scum last game, herp derp, all aboard the Brian wagon.

Jokevote: Brian Skies

No seriously, town got their head out of their collective asses enough to see GC is a bad choice. I honestly don't want him to claim but at the point I voted him it seemed there would have to be one from him so I wanted to get it done and over with rather than waiting around for some turtle to make up their mind they're going to put him to L1 and make him claim with less than 24 hours left.

So VOTE: FireScreamer <- It's a mistake not to put this one in the noose today.

@shannon, nah, I was just curious, maybe I should've made it clear that was non-game specific question or even taken it to pm. But I was wondering how it worked for the mods since they'd be able to modify the different topics and what not.

@Narna, I claimed VT. Claiming early is NAI (I'm not sure when people think L2 is early, we use to always claim L2, because no point in dragging it out and it prevents someone from making an excuse to cast the hammering vote).

I like this post. It shows a lot of thought, less spewwy than his posting about probabilities.

Which parts of it show a lot of thought. Which parts of it do you like?

I like the list, since it shows articulation. I feel the post shows clear pathways of logic.
Also, I've noted Brian has been wagon hopping a lot lately.

[Gamma Emerald]

336 is kind of confusingly phrased, because "I have a feeling he will eventually catch scum or get killed" is not really a reason to townread someone. I have an idea of what this actually meant but I'd rather hear Rory's explanation first.

I'm not really sure what needs explaining here?

You said "I'm going to start townreading Brian Skies. I feel like he will eventually catch scum or be killed. Good enough reason for now."

How is the second sentence a

reason

to townread someone?

May I answer

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Rory

You know. I'm going to grill you for this naked vote after what people made up for excuses to vote me.

- Case on Rory?
- What made you change?
- How confident are you he's scum?
- Looking for another claim today? Rolefisher!
- Not sure if bad play, or just terrible scum!

Come on guys, Brian must be scum, he hasn't even expanded upon this vote since then. His slot was scum last game, herp derp, all aboard the Brian wagon.

Jokevote: Brian Skies

No seriously, town got their head out of their collective asses enough to see GC is a bad choice. I honestly don't want him to claim but at the point I voted him it seemed there would have to be one from him so I wanted to get it done and over with rather than waiting around for some turtle to make up their mind they're going to put him to L1 and make him claim with less than 24 hours left.

So VOTE: FireScreamer <- It's a mistake not to put this one in the noose today.

@shannon, nah, I was just curious, maybe I should've made it clear that was non-game specific question or even taken it to pm. But I was wondering how it worked for the mods since they'd be able to modify the different topics and what not.

@Narna, I claimed VT. Claiming early is NAI (I'm not sure when people think L2 is early, we use to always claim L2, because no point in dragging it out and it prevents someone from making an excuse to cast the hammering vote).

I like this post. It shows a lot of thought, less spewwy than his posting about probabilities.

Which parts of it show a lot of thought. Which parts of it do you like?

I like the list, since it shows articulation. I feel the post shows clear pathways of logic.
Also, I've noted Brian has been wagon hopping a lot lately.

The Brian argument was an intentionally facetious argument. THATS why you liked this post? That and because it was properly formatted?

The Brian thing had nothing to do with that post, I just didn't want to make two posts when I knew I could do one.

[Gamma Emerald]

You are willing to wash away pages of drivel because he formatted a post correctly? This turns a scumread into a townread that you are willing to trust implicitly when wagoning someone else?

Formatting means jack. Thanks for completely misrepping what I said.

[Gamma Emerald]

I have no incentive to overtly misrep what you say. Everyone is reading the same thread. Maybe this is a misunderstanding. Tell me again what you like about the post?

I like the way he laid out his points of discussion. It suggests town that is doubling down.

[Gamma Emerald]

I see "The way he laid out" as meaning the formatting of the post. You arn't really talking about the content at all. Why does that suggest town is doubling down? Define doubling down.

It's like the organization. For some reason words are failing me.
Doubling down means to focus your efforts. It feels like town doubling down since he was in trouble and he shaped up.

[Gamma Emerald]

Why would town "double down" in a position where scum wouldn't?

Scum I believe would start to crack. He just soldiered on.

[Gamma Emerald]

Why are scum more likely to crack than town and less likely to try and shape up?

Scum react worse under pressure than town I think
At this point I'm not sure if I actually believe what I'm saying, I've been talking on

[Gamma Emerald]

If I provide an example of Comm being taken to claim early on day 1, claiming and then appearing to play better would you reverse your read?

Was he scum?

[Gamma Emerald]

Well then there's a shot

[Gamma Emerald]

I might spot some difference in behavior.

[Gamma Emerald]

The asking about daytalk is weird, I have no idea why Rory would think that. I guess it's worth pursuing but it's not something to hang a case on by itself.

I never play open games and I am a big fan of daytalk. I didn't realize open games don't allow daytalk, or at least this setup doesn't.
That's my explanation, for what it's worth.

It occurred to me that this was verifiable, so I checked.

Spoiler: PolitiFact ranks this statement "Mostly True"

A review of Radja's topic list shows he played in only a single Open Queue game (604), it was in 2015, and he replaced out during early Day 1. Under his prior account, StubbsKVM, he played in five Open Queue games (505, 508, 512, 522, 603).

Only one of these six games (512) was C9++, it was nearly four years ago, and he replaced out of that game during Day 1 as well. It did not have daytalk, but Stubbs was town-aligned and could plausibly not have realized this.

I think the statement "I never play open games" is honest and substantially true given this record.

I expected it to be true, but it was worth taking a look anyway.

What confuses me is what the statement "I am a big fan of daytalk" has to do with anticipating daytalk in this game. In general most games don't have daytalk, and being a fan of something doesn't make it more likely unless you're the mod.

Lies
Rory played in a Fire and Ice with me.

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma, who is your top scumread?

No clue. I've been trying to get people to bounce questions back and forth so I can for hard opinions on things.

so you don't have a scumread at all? Or what do I need to gather from this?

I don't really have reads that I'm confident in enough to vote. I might vote Brian later

[Gamma Emerald]

Also, I've noted Brian has been wagon hopping a lot lately.

What's the point of this? Is wagon hopping AI?

Yes, It can mean he's trying to run people up for claims D1.

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Fire

ThinkBig just count the one that's on scum.
You know which one I am talking about.

You really want to make my life difficult, don't you?

Hiiiii

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

If that's your real opinion, I'm even more convinced you tried to distract from the Comm wagon by voting me.
You also had no problem voting Firescreamer earlier.

I will accept that claim. I wasn't ready for a claim, so I explored other options. You can read it how you like.

[Gamma Emerald]

So many mixed signals from Firebringer

[Gamma Emerald]

I think you really need to to know what's up
It's not 100 pages at least.

[Gamma Emerald]

Alchemist might be scum.

Umlaut is not town.

Why not say umlaut is scum?

Also u sure on alchemist? Cause we got history of same alignments that's like 20 games straight

Not Town means mafia/serial killer

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm not sure about Umlaut
I've been Town reading him since we resonated on the probability thing

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm not sure about Umlaut
I've been Town reading him since we resonated on the probability thing

Why is being able to count alignment indicative?

I felt that the fact we were thinking similarly was a sign of him being town

[Gamma Emerald]

I don't see Umlaut's thing as rolefishing
Kinda feels like a reaction test

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Fire

ThinkBig just count the one that's on scum.
You know which one I am talking about.

You really want to make my life difficult, don't you?

It's about time you showed up. Goddamn this about to be both lit af and confusing af.

So the game will be like being on weed.

Gross. Weed is like the second least pleasant drug i've never used.

Why is this?

[Gamma Emerald]

@FS:

GC can you attempt to interpret Gamma's side of our 1vs1 on his Commread for me?

Sure:

1.

Yo CommKnight

Doesn't the lack of cases made suggest a passive attitude from FireScreamer?

Your post not only tilted my read of FS to the scum side, it made me find a reason.

VOTE: FireScreamer

Can someone who isn't Commknight explain to me why they are voting me. Can they also explain to me why they think Commknight is voting for me.

I was voting you because Comm said you were playing at a lower level than your last run, but your last post seems to counter that.

I don't particularly care to read the last run so could you or Comm do a summary?

There's some disconnect here. The italics is why Gamma said he voted FS. But originally, it appeared the bolded phrase is what did it: Gamma read FS and decided that FS has a lack of cases = passive attitude = scum. Later, it appears that Gamma is justifying his FS vote (italics phrase) based solely on the underlined phrase--that is, because Comm was talking about a prior game. So, two bases to vote FS--because Gamma thinks FS is being passive, and because Comm said it's different FS play--but when challenged, Gamma relies solely on the latter (and can shift "blame" for his vote onto Comm).

I'm okay with this analysis except for the fact that it all happened pretty quickly. 912 happened late Tuesday night; 929 happened early Wednesday morning. There wasn't real pressure for Gamma to give up one of the bases for his vote, as only FS was asking for explanations.

@Gamma:

as a follow up, can you justify your observation that FS has made a "lack of cases"?

I'm not sure, I took a comment made by someone at face value and made inferences based on that. I'll look back though.

[Gamma Emerald]

These are the cases I found.

Deja vu all over again.

VOTE: Titus

Because if you are gonna let the fact that someone was town and the whole game getting re rolled stop a tunnel you didn't want it enough.

Kinda counts.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Comm

This gamblers fallacy stuff is lol. Time to pressure Comm till he reveals it was all a ruse and he is actually 1 shot doc pretending to be scummy.

And come on guys what are the odds of him doing that twice in a row

A case for sure.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Brian

On a drunk skim this will do fine.

This one makes sense in context.

Fuck off. I learned nothing but yuou suck at this game when we hydra'd

Is this directed at you GE or do people think i'm lying about not being FB or what?

Not a case but this needed addressing: yes this was @me, Narna and I hydraed for Aeronaut's Drunken Christmas Party.

His reads list is very safe. He inexplicably refused to speculate on why town Dave would be townreading him despite being in a situation where he has to have thought about that. Has been reactive and sort of around but refusing to step out of the nullspace to form a strong opinion on anything.

Case on me.

S L I P B O Y Z

VOTE: Alchemist

Self explanatory
So I think FS has a substantial amount of cases.

[Gamma Emerald]

Oh, and 3. I just imagine it will be an extremely hard wagon to push.

Why is this a concern?

[Gamma Emerald]

So I think FS has a substantial amount of cases.

With that in mind, explain to me the bold:

Yo CommKnight

Doesn't the lack of cases made suggest a passive attitude from FireScreamer?

Your post not only tilted my read of FS to the scum side, it made me find a reason.
VOTE: FireScreamer

Because here's how I interpret it. You appear to be asking Comm whether {the lack of cases <your observation>} leads to {a passive attitude <Comm's accusation>}. As in, you know there is a lack of cases, but are wanting confirmation that that means there is a passive attitude (and thus scum).

This interpretation of your 912 appears confirmed by the non-bolded part of the post where you admit that Comm's post "made <you> find a reason," suggesting that you went out and determined, independently of Comm's posts, that FS was scum (because of the aforementioned "lack of cases").

But now you are saying there was a substantial amount of cases. What gives?

I thought of a reason based on his case. FS refuted that. Your questioning made me find evidence that refutes CK's case.

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma, who on your wagon do you think is scum?

UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald

Will reconsider this when I get back.

this is nasty
VOTE: Umlaut

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma, who on your wagon do you think is scum?

UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald

Will reconsider this when I get back.

this is nasty
VOTE: Umlaut

What's nasty about it?

Also, who *did* you think was scum on your wagon?

Asks about scumreads on my wagon
Leaves my wagon

You can't tell me something isn't up.

Other than him, I don't really have scumreads on people from my wagon.

[Gamma Emerald]

TITUS!!!!
Change your avi.

The penguin Zorro has gotten old fast.

Change yours too Narna
What happened to adorableness?

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma, who on your wagon do you think is scum?

UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald

Will reconsider this when I get back.

this is nasty
VOTE: Umlaut

What's nasty about it?

Also, who *did* you think was scum on your wagon?

Asks about scumreads on my wagon
Leaves my wagon

You can't tell me something isn't up.

Other than him, I don't really have scumreads on people from my wagon.

Waaaay ahead of you dude. Are you even reading this game?

I wasn't disturbed by Titus' irresponsiveness, and I hadn't read past that post so I couldn't tell she didn't answer. I was disturbed by GC's phrasing.

So you saw like 300 posts had happened between Titus voting me and you asking GC the question, and it didn't occur to you to:
- read a few more pages to see if it had been resolved
- read a few more pages to see whether anyone else had asked what you were going to ask
- ISO any of the involved players to establish same?

Your iso suggests ... that might actually be the case. It shows you responding to posts in order, regardless of what might have happened in between. OK, I believe you.

VOTE: Alchemist

Can you look back on the Gamma progression on me and comm and come back on the wagon kthanks

inb4 'shannon was bussing gamma and then the wagon got strong and she left it but now she's worried about not being on it so she came back

'

And actually, why not go back?

VOTE: Gamma

Gamma is L-1

Pardon me, how are you ahead of me?

[Gamma Emerald]

Shannon is scum this game.

Is this based on her last post or is there more?

[Gamma Emerald]

Haven't posted in over a day, I think an update is in order

[Gamma Emerald]

Bit baffled by shannon using a Look At Me I'm So Scum strategy. My guess is she's so sure about me being scum she's willing to risk herself.

[Gamma Emerald]

Titus's play has a strong consistency and that feels towny

[Gamma Emerald]

Looking back I don't like Umlaut's initial vote on me. It feels like an opportunistic push started during a period where I was having some trouble defending myself.

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm a bit concerned about davesaz currently: it feels like he might be whiteknighting me.

[Gamma Emerald]

I have no idea what to think of Narna. He seems extremely abrasive this game.

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm confused by FS putting in the note about me possibly being Town by his CK town theory but not really showing much consideration of that possibility.

[Gamma Emerald]

Shannon, give me a non gamma case built on something other than Gamma assosiatives please.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Explain why in depth.

Why does nobody in this town want to actually justify anything they do.

FS, what's up here? Why are you acting so strange around my wagon here?

Regardless I will be able to show you

1. Scum behaviour leading to a wagon leading to a claim
2. The claim post
3. A tonal shift after the claim post involving"Shaping up"

I never got this.

[Gamma Emerald]

336 is kind of confusingly phrased, because "I have a feeling he will eventually catch scum or get killed" is not really a reason to townread someone. I have an idea of what this actually meant but I'd rather hear Rory's explanation first.

I'm not really sure what needs explaining here?

This type of tone seems towny, like "I've been completely clear so what's the deal?"

[Gamma Emerald]

My official diagnosis of CK is town who sometimes says weird shit (the probability talk, the voting a TR) and trips over their words at times.

[Gamma Emerald]

Alchemist still feels like town. He feels uninhibited in his speech a bit.

[Gamma Emerald]

Firebringer seems a bit unfocused, IIRC that's a town sign for him, but I need to check that because my source may be wrong. I'm not sure since FB decided to make things wonky.

[Gamma Emerald]

I'll conclude my data is sound
Although, Rory, I'd like your read on Firebringer.

[Gamma Emerald]

Why can't you join me on GE Titusa?

Because GE is town and FS isn't.

I'm not though. If there was anyone in the game that I think would misread me in this game it would be you though so I forgive you.

Why did you vote Brian fx?

He's been wagoning townies all game.

Noted

[Gamma Emerald]

Btw I will give a read on Brian and GC soonish

[Gamma Emerald]

Like it sounds like you may be onto something a60, but I don't sees it.

It's simple: If you don't have a PT then why ask someone if they use their mod account to view PTs? What even triggers the idea into your mind if you do NOT have a PT to begin with?

Because maybe he wants to know what keeps mods from cheating at the game?

Counter-question: Why didn't Comm ask it in the

last

game, since Comm was scum and Rory was Town?

I'm now suspicious of Davesaz for following on a50's point. He was there last game, he should know better.

Holy shit that's interesting

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Titus

VOTE: Green Crayons

VOTE: CommKnight

VOTE: Rory

Brian join me? My gut feels Rory is town, or maybe that's my ego.

I'm still not a fan of Rory, but sure.

VOTE: FireScreamer

These are Brian's votes, now to compare these with FS's reads

[Gamma Emerald]

Let's tipsily make a reads list on the new Commtown assumption mixed in with some what have you done for me lately.

GC
Alchemist/Umlaut/Titus/Comm
Narna/Firebringer/Shannon
Dave/Rory/Brian/Gamma

Rory is the issue here. Why do you say Brian has been wagoning Town when one of his wagoning votes is on one of your scumreads?

[Gamma Emerald]

Not much has changed for me with GC

[Gamma Emerald]

Brian seems Town, but I had trouble parsing his ISO so I'm not sure

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm getting drunk and watching anime with a friend. So reply will be sporadic but ill be around for most of the night

What series?

VOTE: Titus

VOTE: Green Crayons

VOTE: CommKnight

VOTE: Rory

Brian join me? My gut feels Rory is town, or maybe that's my ego.

I'm still not a fan of Rory, but sure.

VOTE: FireScreamer

These are Brian's votes, now to compare these with FS's reads

I was only looking at votes involved in large wagons.

Well I figured you included that since it was a wagoning vote.

[Gamma Emerald]

Didn't notice that

[Gamma Emerald]

These are my reads as they sit
Town: Rory, Titus, shannon, CommKnight, Alchemist, Firebringer, Green Crayons, Brian Skies
Nullscum: FS, Narna
Scum: Umlaut, Davesaz
Narna is nullscum since I've never seen him as scum but this doesn't look like his townplay.
VOTE: Firescreamer

[Gamma Emerald]

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=71646
I'd just seen this so I was moved to vote FS. If Dave's wagon is larger I'll vote it.

[Gamma Emerald]

I wasn't ready to shift votes theb.

[Gamma Emerald]

Also with A50 here, anyone making a case against me for "flawed logic". Ask him what flawed logic did for town in our game.

Fastposted by FS, if you flip green. I would definitely be on Titus. But if you flip red, then I feel pretty confident on my Titus town read. Umlaut could still be scum, but I am interested in battling with him later on in the game when we get flips and the letters get filled. Because if he tries to trick town, I'm gonna be on his ass.

Fastposted again, Oh really? PR soft much? Because a VT claim = HANG.

You wanna be the pot or the kettle?

[Gamma Emerald]

Um, why are you pushing for a claim on a suspected PR CommKinght?

[Gamma Emerald]

I can see myself being lynched soon so I'm going to claim. I am a 1 shot roleblocker.

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: davesaz

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: davesaz

Now I KNOW I'm going to lynch you on D2.

Are you telling me you were voting FS WITH davesaz, and now voting davesaz WITH FS?? Do you think one of them is a Serial Killer or do you think they're bussing?? And on what grounds do you think this or that?

I haven't been paying attention to wagon composition, but I do believe one is SK, specifically Dave.

[Gamma Emerald]

LOL
One shot does not mean "use the shot day one".

[Gamma Emerald]

I have no clue but that doesn't mean I'm going to fire a gun into the air to hit a satellite. I want to be extra certain I'm blocking scum.

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm just gonna hang out on my vanity wagon. Let me know if you need me.

Why? What makes you think your vanity wagon will take off?

[Gamma Emerald]

I personally think it's stupid to mass claim rb/not rb. We already know there's no IC, and giving out more info to scum just helps them get the full picture before we can.

[Gamma Emerald]

I never said I wouldn't act, I said one shot doesn't mean to act Night one. Nice misrepresentation.

[Gamma Emerald]

That's not what he is saying
He's saying you and Titus are scum together.

[Gamma Emerald]

Almost50 is just scum. Regardless of anyone else's alignment. I read him pretty well and this looks like Smackdown.

No Comm.

If we want to lynch scum

Dave Shannon.

A50 is shannon

[Gamma Emerald]

Oh lol thought you were talking to A50

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm the idiot here

[Gamma Emerald]

Titus says all of these things simultaneously:

• the lack of an RB claim shows Gamma is probably guilty;
  
• if the RB does claim, we should flip Gamma anyway to confirm the full RB as town; and
  
• the RB should claim, to save Gamma.

We went through

this exact scenario

last roll, and it culminated in Titus telling me I should self-hammer to

prevent

the full RB from claiming if I was town. I don't know how she forgot that so quickly.

Was she scum or town last round?

[Gamma Emerald]

And I'm not claiming anything, btw. I'm neither confirming nor denying being one role or another.

Tomorrow might be another day though.

This is manipulative softing and i've already explained your motivation for it.

Agreed.

Why couldn't you post like this at daystart?

I wonder where Gamma is.

I was asleep. Look at my signature.

[Gamma Emerald]

And thats a hammer.

I don't think so

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma you want to claim since you are already dead?

I'm still a one shot roleblocker

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma you want to claim since you are already dead?

I'm still a one shot roleblocker

If that's true do you want to give us any reads at all?

Titus is scum, but other than that not much has changed beyond that.

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma you want to claim since you are already dead?

I'm still a one shot roleblocker

If that's true do you want to give us any reads at all?

Titus is scum, but other than that not much has changed beyond that.

Why would scum titus build you as a counterwagon when the RB could confirm you at any point?

Titus is emulating her previous play to appear Town, but the facade has cracked as Umlaut pointed out.

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma you want to claim since you are already dead?

I'm still a one shot roleblocker

If that's true do you want to give us any reads at all?

Titus is scum, but other than that not much has changed beyond that.

Why would scum titus build you as a counterwagon when the RB could confirm you at any point?

Titus is emulating her previous play to appear Town, but the facade has cracked as Umlaut pointed out.

Emulating previous play or not. If you are 1SRB and the RB claimed Titus would have been lynched. Why does scum titus run that risk?

I think she wanted to fish out the full rb. I'd guess that she is a goon.

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma you want to claim since you are already dead?

I'm still a one shot roleblocker

If that's true do you want to give us any reads at all?

Titus is scum, but other than that not much has changed beyond that.

Why would scum titus build you as a counterwagon when the RB could confirm you at any point?

Titus is emulating her previous play to appear Town, but the facade has cracked as Umlaut pointed out.

Emulating previous play or not. If you are 1SRB and the RB claimed Titus would have been lynched. Why does scum titus run that risk?

I think she wanted to fish out the full rb. I'd guess that she is a goon.

You think a goon trades themselves 1 for 1 with town?

A town roleblocker yes.

[Gamma Emerald]

I gave some fairly recently, just move Titus to the scumpool and there ya go

[Gamma Emerald]

No I just think he's derptown

[Gamma Emerald]

What is that pic
I can't see it

[Gamma Emerald]

My whole pregame strategy was to be scummy enough to be copped without being scummy enough to be lynched. Having the cop get killed was a worst case scenario.
I guess I take away from this that I'm no longer serious lynch bait like I used to be.

The no kill on N1 was from thinking the "Dave is SK" movement would gain enough velocity, and being worried that there was nobody I could kill that would be safe from suspicion.
The other no kills were from wanting to keep the no SK path alive if there were another town PR, by being able to finesse the 1 shot vs full. Really surprised that not claiming flew so long.

Titus, the scumread was indeed real, I was not making it up. I saw serious activity level differences from what I'm used to.
Math, sorry for shooting you on replace in, it was the only reasonable "leashed" kill I could make.

Yeah
Even when mafia I'm good at scumhunting

[Gamma Emerald]

My whole pregame strategy was to be scummy enough to be copped without being scummy enough to be lynched. Having the cop get killed was a worst case scenario.
I guess I take away from this that I'm no longer serious lynch bait like I used to be.

The no kill on N1 was from thinking the "Dave is SK" movement would gain enough velocity, and being worried that there was nobody I could kill that would be safe from suspicion.
The other no kills were from wanting to keep the no SK path alive if there were another town PR, by being able to finesse the 1 shot vs full. Really surprised that not claiming flew so long.

Titus, the scumread was indeed real, I was not making it up. I saw serious activity level differences from what I'm used to.
Math, sorry for shooting you on replace in, it was the only reasonable "leashed" kill I could make.

Related to this I saw something in the Mafia thread from TB I disagree with. He said your investigation immunity would have given a "no result" had I investigated you. Without an RB, such a message basically confirms you as an investigation immune SK anyway and makes the power moot. It doesn't specify this in the wiki page for this setup, but I firmly believe investigation immunity should give innocent results to Cops instead of a "no result" message.

Haha guess Town was super lucky to lynch me D1

[Gamma Emerald]

I think I have a curse where in certain queues I way too frequently roll scum

[Gamma Emerald]

I guess he just felt shitty

[Gamma Emerald]

Guy from last game apparently