Mini Normal 1946 | Classic Hits | Town Victory!

[Toranaga]

go on, I'm the most pro-town player in the game. I was against every single lynch that flipped villager and didn't hard push any flipped villager except for fykus. I am a confirmed tracker with at least one hard checked result. I did a hard, -unnecessary if scum- 180 on skitter and dared mulch to vote her, and he didn't. I was on the L-2 skitter wagon on d1. mulch was not.

Mulch outed the town loyal cop; helped getting maria lynched; townread skitter d1 when people were wagoning her; sent fruit to HEM.

all the elements are there.

[Toranaga]

and thor voted sergtacos who probably can't be scum with mulch, and where is thor. where are you thor. are you considering your options?

[Toranaga]

I'm the goddamn village MVP of this game bitch. you keeping me alive to frame me mulch? you got some balls son

[Toranaga]

I'm the goddamn village MVP of this game bitch. you keeping me alive to frame me mulch? you got some balls son

Funny how you have this all prepared and thought of this immediately as a frame kill as soon as it happened


Almost as if you had a plan...

yeah it's not like you SOD voted me at all with a discourse TROLOLOL

so obvious and terrible. and you sent fruit to HEM too, you didn't even think how outing that would be.

[Toranaga]

and you sent fruit to HEM too

Did you just scumslip? You just admitted you KNEW that I sent fruit?

you said you did LOL

[Toranaga]

how would I know you sent fruit if you're town and I'm scum

like how do I get this information unless you're my scum partner

wait did you just scumslip? you just admitted you're scum LOL

[Toranaga]

how would I know you sent fruit if you're town and I'm scum

like how do I get this information unless you're my scum partner

wait did you just scumslip? you just admitted you're scum LOL

Because if I was town I woulden't lie? YOU FUCKED UP

why would you lie as scum that you sent fruit to HEM? that's the worst person you could send fruit to LOL

[Toranaga]

how would I know you sent fruit if you're town and I'm scum

like how do I get this information unless you're my scum partner

wait did you just scumslip? you just admitted you're scum LOL

Because if I was town I woulden't lie? YOU FUCKED UP

why would you lie as scum that you sent fruit to HEM? that's the worst person you could send fruit to LOL

Exactly rofl you knew I wasn't lying and if I was scum I would be lying

not at all. scum!you had to do the NK because you're keeping the fucking town tracker alive during the night. you can't take the chance of me outing your scum partner's night action can you. it would end the game so you had to do the NK.

[Toranaga]

One, maybe two of HEM, Tor, Mulch is scum.

HEM is dead

[Toranaga]

how would I know you sent fruit if you're town and I'm scum

like how do I get this information unless you're my scum partner

wait did you just scumslip? you just admitted you're scum LOL

Because if I was town I woulden't lie? YOU FUCKED UP

why would you lie as scum that you sent fruit to HEM? that's the worst person you could send fruit to LOL

Exactly rofl you knew I wasn't lying and if I was scum I would be lying

not at all. scum!you had to do the NK because you're keeping the fucking town tracker alive during the night. you can't take the chance of me outing your scum partner's night action can you. it would end the game so you had to do the NK.

EXACTLY. IF IM SCUM IN THIS POSITION I DONT SEND FRUIT, I do the nightkill. And you just admitted and slipped that you knew I sent fruit lmfao

oh my god this is so dense...

you can just do the NK and not send fruit, sure. it's not what's relevant here. what's relevant is that if you HAVE TO do the NK because the tracker is being kept alive, then you HAVE TO claim that you sent fruit to the guy you killed. this is very easy to comprehend.

[Toranaga]

Ok so is it mulch or Tor? Both have conviction.

yes it's me or mulch

let me explain why it's mulch:

mulch is a fruit vendor. he is trying to frame me on the NK and get me lynched here, but he fucked up on the details. here is how I'm sure he is scum:

if mulch is scum and is keeping the town tracker alive, he can't have his scum partner do the NK because of the risk I might track the scum partner. that means mulch has to do the NK himself.

if mulch has to do the NK himself, that means the only two people he can claim to have sent fruit is the NK, or his scum partner. he claimed to have sent fruit to the NK.

if mulch was town, he wouldn't send fruit to a hardclaim. he'd just send fruit to someone that would never get the NK ever, like you, thor, tacos or chip. the only two people that would be a terrible idea to send fruit to, is me or HEM. he sent fruit to HEM.

the whole idea behind fruit vendor is that you can prove you weren't doing anything scummy at night. he could have sent fruit to anyone else, but he sent fruit to the fucking NK. and based off how sure he is that this means I'm scum, town!mulch would definitely just send the fruit to anyone else on the off chance I'm scum. he wouldn't put himself into this spot because he is a rational player.

he didn't 'derp' as town. he tried to frame me. it's not hard to see this even if you don't know my alignment.

[Toranaga]

Is it possible you're both town and scum are lurking, getting us to talk ourselves into lynching each other?

it's not a possibility because no one in their right minds would ever believe the HEM claim. this was done as a frame attempt and mulch has trailed himself as the framer because he sent fruit to HEM.

the lynch is me or mulch and no one else. you go pick a side.

[Toranaga]

[font=][/font]

Ok so is it mulch or Tor? Both have conviction.

I mean he scumslipped.

But he said you scum slipped.

So, here's the deal. He made a large, large arguement about how that it was a "frame kill" and that I actually did the nightkill, and never sent fruit. And then he slipped in 2982 that I actually did send fruit. He spent the entire time accusing me of lying about it, and then admitted that I actually did send it.

that's just a bunch of shit. what you can't do is visit someone else while doing the NK. you can send fruit to your NK, it's one visit.

[Toranaga]

All your argument is invalid cause nobody would ever expect hem to be killed

how about this einstein: don't send fruit to a hardclaim JUST IN CASE

JUST IN CASE

[Toranaga]

nananana don't 'ask mastina' me. you can't visit two people at night. it's unreasonable that we'd have a scum fruit vendor that can do such thing. and you know this because you were saying you're 'practically inno child' last gameday if scum got lynched, EXACTLY because you can't send fruit to someone other than the NK as the last scum.

[Toranaga]

this is not important

mulch sending fruit to HEM. that's all you need.

[Toranaga]

Ok well that makes sense.

it does not, he is the only hardclaim besides me. why would he do it.

look, cheeky. if mulch is scum, a bunch of people get hardcleared on it. I think especially tacos that pushed him real hard, and probably the misère;fitz slot as well. It could be chip butty, but I think it's actually thor. look how thor voted villager tacos and then bounced when mulch's plan went sour.

I'm not gonna sit here and convince you guys of the obvious the whole two week time. but lynching me is a mislynch, which means you need perfect f5 and f3. now IDK what fitz and chip and tacos are gonna think, but you I can reason with. if I get mislynched, the only proper lynches next are mulch and then thor. Remember I was villager, I was right on porkens, I was right on HEM, I was right on skitter and I was right on mulch. if we mislynch me, the best chance at hitting a wolf at f3 is thor. don't let thor get away from townreading obvious scum the entire game. the other guys aren't any good at the game, thor is experienced and smart. he is your f3 lynch.

if we lynch mulch, I'm pretty sure thor > chip butty wins the game. if it's fitz or tacos I'll be surprised... not that they were villagery, but their interactions with wolves were good.

[Toranaga]

vote: mulch

literally no reason to drag the day.

[Toranaga]

Tor can you please do the same for mulch?

if mulch is town the game is over

he gets mislynched, then I get mislynched then wolves reach parity

or vice versa

no reason to even consider it tbh

[Toranaga]

Tor can you please do the same for mulch?

if mulch is town the game is over

he gets mislynched, then I get mislynched then wolves reach parity

or vice versa

no reason to even consider it tbh

Your already planning for my town flip. Well played ufo

sure I'll let the wolves reach parity

I won't even fight it

[Toranaga]

Not much I can do, this is why he’s considered one of the top scum on MU

I'm really not, I don't even have 15 games on the site and some people think I'm shit

[Toranaga]

in one game with spank's hydra help

she is much better than I am

[Toranaga]

ok

kind of done arguing lol

mafia is tiring, I need a break

[Toranaga]

wat

I mean it's just a very easy decision

I'm not great scum or anything. when I did really well, it was a hydra game with a seriously amazing player who especially helped me d1. people were literally scumreading me and townreading her. d2 forward I kind of took over, and yes I can be logical and etc but it's not... I don't do any of this. I'm old. I'm the top poster of this game, I wouldn't be antagonistic and loud as a wolf, I don't really even care that much to play like I did here. I'm out of my wolf range and everyone who knows me knows this.

[Toranaga]

if you wanna go meta reading me meta read mulch first. he is both feet into his scum meta lol

[Toranaga]

scum fruit vendor can absolutely give fruit AND do the night kill. what he can't do is give someone fruit and NK someone else. it doesn't matter if he sent fruit or not, he claims he did it, nobody else got fruit so whatever. it doesn't matter if he sent HEM fruit or not, it matters that he visited the NK and no one else got fruit from him.

TEH SCUMSLIP lol give me a break

[Toranaga]

if it's a lie, then why were you claiming you'd be as good as inno child if there was only one scum left? EXPLAIN THIS TO ME MULCH

[Toranaga]

so let's see

I have tacos and cheeky with me. you with me right cheeky. and then you have chip butty with mulch. it's gonna come down to fitz and thor.

if thor dares to side with mulch, HE IS YOUR F3. chip butty doesn't understand anything about anything clearly, and I think fitz can't really be wolfing with mulch. if I get mislynched on account of thor actually siding with mulch, don't you ever let him get away with it.

the lynch is between me and mulch and nobody else. cheeky you gotta understand this. this needs to be resolved NOW and not on lylo. NOW.

[Toranaga]

if it's a lie, then why were you claiming you'd be as good as inno child if there was only one scum left? EXPLAIN THIS TO ME MULCH

Because fruit vendors cant send fruit and do the night kill. Stop being purposefully dense

hmmmmm I think they can, but then they send fruit to the NK. but what if they don't, so what. you visited HEM who got NKed. you have no reason to visit HEM as a villager and you can't prove you didn't kill him. your only motivation to visit HEM is so you can do the NK so I, as tracker, have no good result from a track. you can't keep me alive and have your scum partner doing the visit, so it only makes sense that you'd do it yourself.

but no I SCUMSLIP lol this is so fucking horrible

[Toranaga]

you're saying you can't send fruit and do the NK. I'm not the scum fruit vendor, you are, you know what's up LOL. you say you gave him fruit, I believe you. I'm also 100% sure you killed him.

[Toranaga]

who cares! sending fruit is irrelevant. I would LOL, the sweet taste of death.

[Toranaga]

I'm here and catching up. Why am i not surprised that Toranaga is still here, and HEM is dead despite his obviously bogus claim? More in an hour or two.

more poop in an hour or two guys

stay tuned!

[Toranaga]

chip PLEASE stay on my wagon I beg you

I'm gonna love reading you defend yourself at f3 and lose to thor if I get mislynched

you deserve it bro

[Toranaga]

chip PLEASE stay on my wagon I beg you

I'm gonna love reading you defend yourself at f3 and lose to thor if I get mislynched

you deserve it bro

^ not a natural towny thought. You should think he’s scum if your town

I don't think so. I think thor is. I think if thor was town he wouldn't be trying to lynch tacos and he'd read porkens as more townie than he did last gameday. dude is fishing for mislynches.

here is the thing though: if chip is the last wolf, then thor can vote you with me, then town lycnhes him at f5 and butty at f3. I think this is a gambit thor can't make because he is scum, but hey... we'll see.

[Toranaga]

here is the thing about tacos: he didn't visit anyone last night, which reduces the odds of him being scum because that means his scum partner would have to do the NK. it's not natural that, with this information, thor wants to vote tacos anyway. he'd want to vote someone that, let's say, visited HEM at night. we know mulch did it! and thor is just evasive, he knows he is getting easily POE'd down here if he votes mulch. he is the other scum probably.

[Toranaga]

mulch that's some fucking bold move to frame me. just NK me, mislynch HEM, mislynch tacos who did the wolfiest post ever last gameday and you and thor win.

[Toranaga]

who cares! sending fruit is irrelevant. I would LOL, the sweet taste of death.

You based an entire scumread on me that I did the night kill and lied about giving fruit. And now you claim to think the entire time I could give fruit AND do the nighkill? And you can’t find any motivation for me giving fruit to who died? You say “who cares” ?

it's not a read, it's mechanically outing. I never said you lied about giving fruit, I'm saying SURE, you sent fruit to the guy you killed, who the fuck cares. I'm not reading into anything because I don't need to read into anything. you visited the NK target because you did the NK. the only way your risky ass FPS move works, is if I can't track your scum partner, so you had to do it. it's a shit idea with shit results and it's especially horrible that you're doing this with me. I'm bad at many things but I can type fast and I'll tdome you til you're dead.

[Toranaga]

chip keep tunneling me and stay on my wagon. just to make things harder for thor. don't try to play well now, keep tunneling me.

[Toranaga]

here is the thing about tacos: he didn't visit anyone last night, which reduces the odds of him being scum because that means his scum partner would have to do the NK. it's not natural that, with this information, thor wants to vote tacos anyway.

What is the actual statistical reduction?
Because though I'll agree with you that it exists, I'd love to know how big you think it is that it should alter my reads.

IDK how much but guess what: mulch is outed, is he not. so... tacos probably always a villager no? can tacos be wolfing with mulch? no? why you vote him then?

[Toranaga]

So Thor is your scum partner Tor?

your scum partner actually

[Toranaga]

here is the thing about tacos: he didn't visit anyone last night, which reduces the odds of him being scum because that means his scum partner would have to do the NK. it's not natural that, with this information, thor wants to vote tacos anyway.

What is the actual statistical reduction?
Because though I'll agree with you that it exists, I'd love to know how big you think it is that it should alter my reads.

IDK how much but guess what: mulch is outed, is he not. so... tacos probably always a villager no? can tacos be wolfing with mulch? no? why you vote him then?

YOUR FULL OF SHIT. I’m not outed,
IM FUCKING TOWN. Your THE ONE THATS OUTED

zzzzzzzzzzzzz

ok I'm done 'tdoming'. the lynch is you or me, nobody else.

THIS NEEDS TO BE RESOLVED 100% THIS GAMEDAY

[Toranaga]

You think tor is town? Bullshit

I'll agree that both of you are making it very hard to have the thoughts I have.

So Thor is your scum partner Tor?

Or you - depends which of you feebs we ask.
But considering both of you are apparently thinking I'm th emost logical scum buddy to the other - I'll suggest that at *least* one of you is wearing pants on his head.
Which is better statistical odds than Serg being cleared, fyi

PEdit - @Toranaga - if you don't know by how much it alters the probability then why are you riding my nuts for not clearing Serg? Seriously, what is this derp? What if it's a 1% shift? Then you should be shutting up, yeah? How big of a percentage does it need to be to have your point hold water?

me or mulch

you decide

not serg not anyone else. this needs to be resolved this gameday and I won't accept any other lynch.

me or mulch now thor. who is scum? are you fucking with me that you wanna take this to lylo? no right? then me or mulch. forget sergtacos this gameday.

[Toranaga]

if me and mulch are both town, then we lost the moment scum decided to kill HEM for -whatever reason- and then mulch decided to send him fruit for -whatever reason-

I'll gladly lose this game if mulch is green here.

what we CANNOT EVER EVER EVER DO, is take me and mulch to fucking lylo.

[Toranaga]

hammer! hammer! hammer!

[Toranaga]

after mulch, go thor, and then chip. I don't think it's fitz.

[Toranaga]

BOOM

nice

hammer bitchessss

[Toranaga]

nah I'm not scum, mulch is scum

[Toranaga]

nah

just stop the mindfuck dude

[Toranaga]

you're an idiot then

[Toranaga]

I wanna get lynched tomorrow too, I don't mind it

you chip butty and HEM were so horrible for town I'm fine losing to whoever is scum in this game

[Toranaga]

absolutely lynch me tomorrow yes

[Toranaga]

that M in front of your vote doesn't discount the vote I suppose

you're still 100% lynched here

[Toranaga]

why would you send fruit to HEM mulch you noob

[Toranaga]

Yep lynch tor, when you both flip town imma say I told you so.

I did enjoy playing with you fwiw

[Toranaga]

mulch you're not mindfucking and you're not angleshooting right

I trust you're a better man than doing either

[Toranaga]

alright

gg wp hope we still frands

[Toranaga]

idiot scum team believed HEM jfc

[Toranaga]

In other news, Toranagger outs himself as a thoroughly toxic human being, but i am trying to look past that since it is NAI, even though he is making it difficult to do so.

oh no I'm poopy to play with says the guy who accused me of fantasizing about him

[Toranaga]

yeah that's not a hysterical response from a toxic player at all

[Toranaga]

Toranaga seems nice to me. Not that it's AI, but usually scum are nice to me until I call them out.

I'm a nice guy

[Toranaga]

I'm going to be very confused if mulch flips town, and I know he doesn't have much reason to be lying about it but... it's such a terrible coincidence that mulch would send HEM fruit and HEM would actually get NKed instead of me. I really don't think my spot is defensible anymore from any logical standpoint... if I was any of you, I'd be screaming for my lynch because only a wolf team with me would actually kill HEM.

A lot of problems I had with trying to get a read off people this game was how obtusely pro-scum a lot of them were. Particularly mulch who I know to be a good and reasonable player. I don't understand why he pushed havo as hard as he did, and I don't understand why he'd push so hard for the maria lynch and townread skitter... I'm baffled and honestly very confused with his play.

I'll understand getting lynched in lylo and if I was any of you guys, that's what I'd do. but I'm trying to come up with some logic as to why HEM got NKed instead of me, when his claim was so ridiculous and when mulch was town. because if mulch is town and cheeky is town, that's literally 6 town claimable roles if HEM was telling the truth. it just makes no sense to ever believe it... it only fits with mulch. even if wolves decided to frame me, I think just leaving me unroleblocked to possibly track a scum player is a terrible idea. there's also outing mechanics where E.G.: mulch gives someone who is alive fruit, and I track a possible wolf not going anywhere, and then we lynch that player... that would clear mulch.

so... a team without mulch would have to believe the claim if they're playing the game to their win condition. they can't even be confident me and mulch are going to hard tunnel each other because, honestly, I wasn't that prepared to call mulch scum before he claimed his fruit. it's really... it would be really bad for scum!mulch to actually just send fruit and leave his partner to do the NK when I could track him. I think this is a thought I'm >rand to have at some point, and doubt mulch could do this as a frame attempt.

if mulch is town I'm hardclearing thor. I said that already... one of us is playing a shit town game, and apparently that's me. also, thor just seems way to smart to do the HEM NK.

I think cheeky is too smart to the HEM NK, and honestly I'm just 100% buying into that miller claim based off hers and WM's tone. if that's a scum slot, that's legit great play.

I'm left with 2 out of 3 in the chip butty, sergtacos and fitz wolf team. I don't think they tried framing, so it's all about... just which of these 3 players don't understand mechanics well enough to know HEM's claim was not believable.

I think we can be sure that serg and chip aren't wolfing together based off chip's EOD's push on serg. he actually noticed some pretty telling wolfy stuff from serg there. and as bad as I think chip is, I don't see him buying into HEM's claim at all. in fact, if chip butty is actually scum, he is a lot smarter than what he is letting us on. so he probably wouldn't do that NK for framing, and he wouldn't believe HEM's story.

we're left with sergtacos and fritz... I think tacos made an extremely wolfy post last gameday, which is why I tracked him. and I think fritz just kinda works well with these 2 and skitter. f5 with chip butty I'm probably getting voted and since I think he is the villager, we lose right there.

I could never clear mulch, man. I tried so hard to do it, but... so many things. both mechanically, tonal, agenda driven posts... IDK. I'm still kinda baffled.

[Toranaga]

if mulch sent fruit to anyone else I think it would be more or less clearing of his slot, because if mulch is scum, he is keeping me alive and having his scum partner do the NK which is pretty damning if I'm left alive at night.

and I could probably not argue against it in any sensible way, because I was not roleblocked at night... I literally saw sergtacos not going anywhere. which would also mean that scum!mulch, by sending someone else fruit, is making me lock clear someone else with my NA. it wouldn't make sense as a play for him.

but then he does the one NA that he can't do. he goes to HEM. that means if he is scum, he can kill HEM and whoever I track at night doesn't go anywhere. it's a gambit that makes sense for him and only him to do.

if Mulch tried to call himself MAJ lynched town without being so because he went MVOTE or whatever, that's angleshooting. he can't pretend to get majority lynched in order to spew himself town or whatever. I don't think he should be punished, I just think his self vote should be interpreted as a vote, and not something else because of MVOTE. and really I'm still giving this MVOTE + trying to angleshoot himself clear a higher % chance of being true than mulch being a villager with all the coincidental night actions that happened. I don't think mulch is an ass or anything, I don't think he'd do it... but somehow that's still more likely than him NAing on HEM and HEM getting NKed instead of me. IDK why I'm writing so much. I'm trying to make sense of shit I guess. I just wish he'd fucking flip already.

[Toranaga]

I'm odd night so

n1 fykus went nowhere
n3 serg went nowhere

[Toranaga]

hahahaha

[Toranaga]

vote: sergtacos

[Toranaga]

ok.

thor wouldn't keep me alive last gameday. this was a mulch idea that he pushed on a scum partner that doesn't know any better than say 'no, this is ridiculous'.

and thor wouldn't keep me alive this gameday at all either probably. I'm beyond clear. I'm mechanically, tonally and interaction-wise clear.

I'm here to push for a mislynch I'm pretty sure. I'm here to push for a mislynch and then have chip butty with me at f3 so we can vote each other.

[Toranaga]

First off, i told you people he's town, the reason why is because of my theory. My theory was that he's poking people to get some reaction out of people and that brings in thoughts, posts and information we can use to analyze. The reason why I voted Pork was to see who else would vote him and/or go against that wagon. Didn't expect another accidental lynch due to the fault of the vote count.

^

hands down the scummiest post in the game

[Toranaga]

I have been town reading you this entire game and this post just pinged me the fuck out lol. hard defending yourself outta no where then claim that you're here to mislynch and you sound very confident you won't get NK tonight. All in honestly dude, this is the scummiest post you have made this entire game. I was thinking Thor could be scum but damn man way to jump into my strong scum read.

I don't think thor would WIFOM with me. he doesn't know if I'll fall for that.

I think butty has no motivation as scum to keep me alive because I had a POE of thor > him.

between you and fitz, I think fitz would more likely just go for the logical NK instead of cheeky.

and I'm the only player hard defending you.

[Toranaga]

you make sense with skitter too

[Toranaga]

unvote: sergtacos

OKAY

[Toranaga]

but I'm voting you by EOD anyway

and yeah I remember how hard you pushed mulch. doesn't matter if you're not townie doing it...

[Toranaga]

lynch me, then lynch mulch, then lynch skitter. then figure out which one of HEM, misère and thor is scum.

you can lock clear me just from that insane post alone imagine anyone writing such a thing as scum with mulch and skitter

[Toranaga]

I still think it is interesting to ponder why Toranaga didn't get NKed night yet. Who would have left him alive, and why?

tacos

so I can lynch thor for him

anyone else IDK, wifom reasons. on it's face, tacos.

[Toranaga]

I'm not throwing anything. I read the whole game, I build my cases. wanna lynch me, go ahead! I'm scummy ain't I, there you go.

but when I'm dead town, LYNCH MULCH, THEN SKITTER, THEN RE EVALUATE. you don't do exactly that, you're a dumbass.

^ another gem

[Toranaga]

lynch me, then lynch mulch, then lynch skitter. then figure out which one of HEM, misère and thor is scum.

you can lock clear me just from that insane post alone imagine anyone writing such a thing as scum with mulch and skitter

So what is your theory about why you haven't been NKed? I mean, miller before tracker? Really?

scum wants me f5 for some reason. anything else is hard to be precise about.

[Toranaga]

thor wouldn't do that, he doesn't know I'll townread him for it

I seriously loved fritz coming here, voting no one and going back to sleep

so it's either tacos or chip I think

[Toranaga]

yeah I'm scum

save me for f3 though cause I'll have a checkmate track won't I

unless I track the NK

delicious t-dome, looking forward to it

[Toranaga]

EOD is end of day

[Toranaga]

"I told you guys he was town" wrt porkens

nobody knew if porkens was town or not

sick scumslip if tacos is scum

meh

[Toranaga]

those perspective slipping posts to mulch though

on d3

those were great

[Toranaga]

vote: chip butty

[Toranaga]

chip butty butting tacos on L-1

relevant

[Toranaga]

that first line made no sense but ok

[Toranaga]

unvote:

it's probably tacos

I'll be here tomorrow to figure this out

[Toranaga]

Okay so if perchance Toranaga is not lynched and somehow not NKed tonight he must be scum, so his track report would be useless anyway.

nah you don't understand

if I'm not lynched and I'm at f3 with a track, one player at f3 will be cleared and then it'll be a tdome between me and scum

which tbh, I'll win, unless you're the town I need to convince

[Toranaga]

from any perspective I'm still never the lynch this gameday

[Toranaga]

meaning even if I'm scum the last town player who I'm not framing will get a 50% chance of lynching me and getting it right

as oppose to, say I'm town and I get lynched, at f3 it's 3 unclears and a much higher scum win %

not to mention, scumreading me is entirely unreasonable

[Toranaga]

mechanically:

I'm odd night tracker. there is only one scum left, so for me to have the results I had and they matched with the players, especially the fykus one that was an actual PR, I have to be at least some kind of tracker.

if I'm scum tracker, this is the set up:

mafia odd night tracker
mafia fruit vendor
mafia goon

town even night gunsmith
town loyal cop
town miller
7x vanilla townies

I'd basically have a claimable troll role as odd night tracker in this set up because my track would only be useful to scum if I tracked the loyal cop.

town would have 2 PRs and a total of 3 claimable roles vs mafia having 2 claimable roles. this would be an extremely unusual setup in MS. I haven't seen anything even close to this pro-scum and if there are game managers here they would not allow this set up at all.

for instance, the game mulch brought here with scum fruit vendor was exactly a loud scum fruit vendor and 2x mafia goons against 4 claimable town roles and 6x vanilla townies.

I have to be mechanically clear. a setup where I'm scum cannot be real.

[Toranaga]

probably unintelligent for me to write how I'm mechanically clear now but it's late and I'm tired

[Toranaga]

who outed that there could be mafia fruit vendor? and went against every single one of you trying to clear mulch for it?

look at this possible setup where I'm scum with mulch. what's my motivation for doing that?

[Toranaga]

last post and then I'll stop spamming:

thoughts on each scum pair to NK HEM instead of me, then cheeky instead of me:

mulch-thor: one of the most unlikely pairs. I'm sure this was mulch idea, but he is not an experienced player like thor, who could probably see from a mile away just how bad this could go for mulch. the way mulch outed himself with it, I don't think he was being coached by a decade long account while doing it.

mulch-butty: also extremely unlikely, not too much because of the second kill, but because of the first one. if mulch was trying a frame job against me, he needed numbers that could side with him. if chip butty is his scum pair, who would he push this story to? tacos was townreading me and scumreading him. thor was practically clearing me. I suppose fitz and cheeky could have gone anywhere with it, but it seems highly unlikely he is ever getting me lynched when the only player guaranteed to be on his side is his scum partner. also, considering where I was going with my POE, the fact that I actually voted chip butty a lot in this game and tdomed a lot with him... why would keep someone so antagonistic in f5? ego? still trying to somehow frame me? seems farfetched...

mulch-fitz: this one is interesting because there isn't motivation either way. fitz could maybe do it just to put everyone in WIFOM, maybe that'd help, maybe not.

mulch-tacos: I have townread tacos throughout the game for pushing the right things. tacos was on skitter. tacos was hard scumreading mulch when me and him were the only players doing it. I was trying not to tunnel, but kind of sure enough mulch was scum that I was conditionally reading tacos townie and people pushing him scummy.

but thinking back on that HEM NK... if mulch and butty were scum together, it would be incredibly hard to sell. but mulch and tacos? it would set one of them up for the f3 victory. if we lynched tacos on f7, I look horrible and get lynched on f5. mulch goes f3 not w;w with tacos and wins. if we lynch me, tacos actually looks amazing because he would be the one guy saying mulch is obv scum when other players couldn't see it. and if we lynch mulch, tacos would also look good on the bussing job. keeping me alive on f5 looks safe for tacos: I'd be defending him and pushing town with it if I'm keeping true to last gameday's reads.

[Toranaga]

@Toranaga:

Your reports are also consistent with you being a role scanner.

N1 you scan Fykus and learn he is an even-night GS and therefore didn't go anywhere n1.

N3 you scanned Taco and saw he is VT (I'm assuming for the purposes of this exercise) and therefore didn't go anywhere n3.

Am i missing anything? You might not even be odd-night.

ok say I'm role scanner then. say I'm any scum PR that could claim as if I was a town PR. it's the same thing. 13er with 2 town prs and 2 scum prs that could hardclaim as town. even more unlikely to be true now that I'm a strong af role scanner.

[Toranaga]

since no one else is even trying anymore

vote: sergtacos

[Toranaga]

[Toranaga]

I might clear fitz just for that LOL

[Toranaga]

since no one else is even trying anymore

vote: sergtacos

I plan to read everyone's ISO by the end of Sunday. I think you should do the same but the fact that you're not trying seems like you don't care because you just want to lynch me which isn't town like. you are at the top of my scum read until i read everyone's ISO.

I just explained to you how the mechanics are bonkers if I'm scum. also, if I'm scum I can mislynch anyone, I don't have to fixate on you

[Toranaga]

it's not a concern at all since me not dying n3 was -exactly- why mulch got lynched. congratulations you airheads for not paying any attention to the game...

[Toranaga]

Congratulations you airhead for randomly insulting someone raising a valid concern and someone else disabusing it?
Dork face.

pay attention to the game.

mulch visited HEM. that outed him because I'm town tracker.

if I'm scum with mulch, I can make the HEM NK and he sends fruit to whoever.

mulch sent fruit because he couldn't afford having me alive tracking his partner.

I said that 300 times on d4 and you still didn't pick up.

[Toranaga]

it's not a concern at all since me not dying n3 was -exactly- why mulch got lynched. congratulations you airheads for not paying any attention to the game...

I was wondering what happened to the old psycho-Toranaga.

not in a mood to give a fuck

[Toranaga]

it's not a concern at all since me not dying n3 was -exactly- why mulch got lynched. congratulations you airheads for not paying any attention to the game...

I was wondering what happened to the old psycho-Toranaga.

not in a mood to give a fuck

I get a lot of enjoyment from making people like you blow up.

you didn't do dick

[Toranaga]

vote: sergtacos

[Toranaga]

Congratulations you airhead for randomly insulting someone raising a valid concern and someone else disabusing it?
Dork face.

pay attention to the game.

mulch visited HEM. that outed him because I'm town tracker.

if I'm scum with mulch, I can make the HEM NK and he sends fruit to whoever.

mulch sent fruit because he couldn't afford having me alive tracking his partner.

I said that 300 times on d4 and you still didn't pick up.

Pay attention to what I'm doing.

Last i checked I wasn't voting your dork face whiny butt.

I don't expect anyone in this game to be doing anything pro-town, especially as a levelling play

[Toranaga]

I don't expect anyone in this game to be doing anything pro-town, especially as a levelling play

Well, sure, if you randomly assume people's thoughts you might get some negative presumptions going.

if I randomly assume what

that "I agree it is a concern" is you agreeing with chip butty's reasoning on why I'm suspicious due to the N3 kill? it's not random. random would be me assuming you're trying to cast shade on me on purpose, knowing I'm a villager, so I don't get NKed because f3 with me is pro-town.

[Toranaga]

If you think anyone here is confirmed you're a fool.
What else are we talking about?

I'm as confirmed as anyone can possibly get

I don't wanna talk about anything, all the posts this gameday are underwhelming, let's just lynch tacos

[Toranaga]

#1 reason for lynching tacos:

First off, i told you people he's town, the reason why is because of my theory. My theory was that he's poking people to get some reaction out of people and that brings in thoughts, posts and information we can use to analyze. The reason why I voted Pork was to see who else would vote him and/or go against that wagon. Didn't expect another accidental lynch due to the fault of the vote count.

1 - porkens didn't flip or said he was town at that point so this is all a huge ball of TMI spew
2 - the 'reason' for voting him is entirely bullshit, especially considering he voted porkens as porkens was already getting wagoned by fitz, HEM and butty, and that makes no sense as 'bait' to see who else would vote as he literally put the guy on L-1. he also bounced for the night a little after voting porkens. if tacos thought porkens was town, why would he help the guy get MAJed?

[Toranaga]

I'm not wasting my time reading ISOs

[Toranaga]

Tor...can you explain how you are a confirmed tracker?

I can but just because you're a replacement:

1 - On d2 I outed my role and that fykus didn't go anywhere at night before fykus even softclaimed;
2 - On d4 I outed that sergtacos didn't go anywhere;
3 - when I was kept alive between n3-d4, mulch visited HEM and HEM died. that means mulch did the NK, and not his scum partner, to avoid me being kept alive and tracking his partner doing the NK. Mulch has no reason to visit HEM if I'm scum with Mulch, because if I'm scum that means no town tracker, so he can send fruit to whoever and I do the NK.

point 3 is flying above your heads, isn't it?

[Toranaga]

if mulch was town

why are you even quoting this out of context

[Toranaga]

Why did you claim Tor?

cause I fucking felt like it

[Toranaga]

yes I outed mulch and was the only reason he got lynched because of -theatrics-. a wolf that was widely townread and only got lynched at all because of me. -theatrics-.

[Toranaga]

there is absolutely no end to how poorly you can play chip

[Toranaga]

mulch wagon was me, mulch, cheeky and sergtacos. tacos likely the other scum, cheeky merely policy voting him cause self vote, and mulch first as an angleshot, then as MAJ. the rest of you were all townreading him and would keep townreading him and lose to him if I didn't stop it. a scum player I caught d fucking 2.

[Toranaga]

you want to lynch tor today

my goodness

[Toranaga]

"I will say that if Tor is town I will be a big fan of his abilities after this game."

thank you

[Toranaga]

I'll take the compliment and won't fight my lynch. if you guys wanna do it, blergh do it. and yeah I'm sorry for throwing the towel like that, it's just that I'm trying to remove myself from mafia these days and this is particularly such a tilting game to play... I've said everything that could be said about the game already. I suggest lynching tacos next if you lynch me. and fitz, I explained why I changed from thor to tacos, and I think my explanation makes a whole lot of sense wrt me being alive. I'd go tacos > thor probably myself.

[Toranaga]

won't post this gameday anymore, do what you gotta do

gl hf

[Toranaga]

just a note on 'wifom of toranaga being alive at f3'.... me alive at f3 is the best case scenario regardless of my alignment because I'd have one shot at a track at night, and unless I tracked the NK I'd have a lock scum player, either tracking his NK or tracking the other player not doing the NK. so the other town has a 50% chance of getting it right as long as I bring a confirmed track with me. that is 50% chance of town winning in a vacuum as opposed to 33%. I said this already but there you go.

[Toranaga]

vote: toranaga

just end me chip

[Toranaga]

I seem to be the lock lynch at f3 if tacos flips villager, and I just don't wanna go through that.

I don't understand why everyone is so awful at mafia that 3 of you (hopefully one wolf) think I'm scum, but I have exhausted my arguments for why I'm not.

I haven't seen a single normal 13er in MS where town has 2 PRs and a total of 3 claimable roles while wolves have 1 PR and two claimable roles. the 13er where we had a mafia loud fruit vendor, it was with 2x vanilla goons and 4x town PRs;claimable roles. exactly the scenario we have here if I'm town. so that's mechanically why I can't be scum because you all know I'm at least a PR.

secondly, let me try to explain again the mulch visiting HEM on n3: if me and mulch are scum together, he can visit someone else and I do the HEM NK, that way he is cleared from doing the NK and we can push for a mislynch. the reason why mulch did the HEM NK, is because I'm town tracker and he kept me alive at night. he can't afford having his scum partner doing the NK and me tracking them. I have absolutely no reason to track mulch at all with two scum players left, because he needs to send fruit at night, so it's reasonable to expect that his partner would do the NK instead. I tracked sergtacos because he made an extremely wolfy post at that EOD, and because at the time I thought the teams were either tacos;fitz or mulch;thor, so I thought I had a decent chance of hitting a track. I didn't think I'd live to tell though.

this is just why I'm mechanically clear. on anything else: I pushed scum and cleared town all game. I flip flop on reads, I'm often confused about the game state, I often contradict myself... sure. this is all townie though. it's a long game, I often misremember things and I often get a second, third, forth impression on everything because I'm trying to solve the game.

I don't understand, but just... cap me and move on. I can't keep fighting this at f3, I just fucking hope it's tacos.

[Toranaga]

Please explain why you think its me.

I think you're wolfy. I was reading you villagery before because you were pushing the right things all game. you're playing a safe game, having reasonable reads, not spamming the thread with crazy. that, and I'm alive. I think most wolf team combinations would have killed me off already, but especially a wolf team with you could throw a curveball and keep me alive, especially f5.

I think your post about porkens is an extreme scumslip; you were calling a player town as if you KNEW he was town when he didn't flip or say anything about his lynch. and your reasoning for putting him on l-1 (you say you thought it was l-2, ok) is crap. total bullshit. guy has 3 votes on him, you put the 4th, bounce, then say you thought he was town and was trapping people to vote him. I don't buy that one at all.

[Toranaga]

if I had two lynches, I'd lynch you now and thor at f3. thor said something very interesting this gameday about why I was kept alive at f7 that makes sense for him as scum to agree with mulch and roll with it: that if I get NKed, my flip would actually out mulch on the basis of too many claimable roles for town. so it makes sense that thor would come up with that plan, and then knowing how much of a fail you guys are, actually NK cheekyteeky because she never gets lynched in this game, and keep me alive to maintain my mislynch equity.

[Toranaga]

I mean wrt your posts, not your NK.

but alright... guess I can at least

unvote

[Toranaga]

don't put people you think are town in L-2 and then bounce tacos

what are you doing jfc

[Toranaga]

alright

you're just bad enough to do that bs as town

I like your interactions with mulch anyway

meh

[Toranaga]

vote: thor665

[Toranaga]

YOU WENT TO BED OR SOMETHING THOUGH

YOU SPENT 10 HOURS AWAY FROM THE THREAD

jesus man that makes no sense

[Toranaga]

longer deadlines benefit scum.


And more importantly, I feel like getting Havo to L-1 will elicit a claim from him.

Funny how you want a hard claim from him and not from everyone else? we might as well say fuck it and announce all of our roles.

So far, Whymafia= Miller

Anyone else want to hardclaim?

See how stupid this is? Why are you so demanding for Havo's full claim when there's still 2 weeks ahead of us for D1! Like I would expect a hard claim in D3 and/or D4, maybe D2 depending on the situation but wth.

VOTE: Mulch

"longer deadlines benefit scum."

why even write this? you know that's not necessarily true anyway and you know lynching anyone right now is terrible. why write such thing as if it was fact?

Because he's scum.

longer deadlines benefit scum.


And more importantly, I feel like getting Havo to L-1 will elicit a claim from him.

Funny how you want a hard claim from him and not from everyone else? we might as well say fuck it and announce all of our roles.

So far, Whymafia= Miller

Anyone else want to hardclaim?

See how stupid this is? Why are you so demanding for Havo's full claim when there's still 2 weeks ahead of us for D1! Like I would expect a hard claim in D3 and/or D4, maybe D2 depending on the situation but wth.

VOTE: Mulch

This is just dumb. Havo is being asked to hardclaim because he softed (though not at all softly) a strong PR. Others haven't. Duh.

Ok lets supposed Havo hard claims, and he says he's a cop, a doctor, or some shit, what now? Still going to park your vote on Havo? See the problem here is that you're not thinking throughly here. If he hard claims, he could either be lying or telling the truth, so which is it? What would you determine after Havo hardclaims? I'm getting shitloads of scummy vibes from you and Havo seems innocent to me.

ok...

this has to be genuine

[Toranaga]

Read list:

Strong town:
Lean town: Whymafia
Null: Havo
between null and lean scum: Skitter
Lean scum: Monkey
Strong scum: Mulch and Chip

Skitter is weird, i town read Robb however when Skitter replaced in, his posts been sounding scummy.

^

this is a lot of bussing and naturally reacting to anti-town scum pushes for taco to be scum

[Toranaga]

I'm saying I don't think you are

I'm saying it's a lot of bussing and naturally reacting to stuff in the game for you to be scum pay attention

[Toranaga]

that porkens stuff though

jfc man

I was strong townreading porkens as well for the same reasons but don't vote villagers. like, how hard is it tacos, to just not vote someone you think is town

REACTIONZ, good job jfc

[Toranaga]

vote: thor665

From someone who likes to complain about how bad everyone is playing we get this

you are a 2009 account not hardclearing me. I got L-1 and I waited to see who caps, and yet you didn't come here to say 'let's not do this please', oh no, what did you to thor. 'meh and more meh'. that's scummy.

[Toranaga]

I'm saying you're town tacos

I think you're town now

[Toranaga]

chip is town for many reasons but especially because with the way he is playing, he'd totally cap me as last scum there. he is such a brazen slot if he is scum he'd flat out do the anti village thing and get me lynched.

I... kinda love fitz' catch up. he doesn't need to do it, and I fucking like his reasoning for scum reading me. I mean, it's terrible reasoning, but comes from a townie perspective I feel.

tacos' interactions with mulch are just too genuine to come from scum IMO.

guys, this might be my last moment of trying to win this. thor is the last scum.

[Toranaga]

vote: thor665

From someone who likes to complain about how bad everyone is playing we get this

you are a 2009 account not hardclearing me. I got L-1 and I waited to see who caps, and yet you didn't come here to say 'let's not do this please', oh no, what did you to thor. 'meh and more meh'. that's scummy.

So it's a scumtell to not hardclear you even though I've been actively defending you for days from people who openly scumread you?
Tell me more about this amazing tell wherein I haven't been defending you.
Would you like a hug and for me to tell you how special you are for self voting and whining like Mulch?
Who was scum.
So if you're town you're playing like how someone who was scum thought the game should be played.
jfc maybe?
You tell me.

for you, yes. for you it's a scumtell. because you have been playing this for near a decade. you understand at least the basics of the mechanics to know 1) the setup does not exist in MS when I'm scum and 2) Mulch' visiting HEM hardclears me. you're the only player here that's supposed to know better, and yet you pretend you don't.

also, you have played with mulch before, and IIRC mulch in both alignments. you refused to acknowledge the great disparity between his scum and town play. you read him townie when it was pretty obvious by skimming his other games that this was hitting exactly his scum range, not his town range at all.

[Toranaga]

You also did your "test" after I finally noted, after days of defense, that you were being so whiny I almost was willing to let you die.
Really neat "test" huh?

the ONLY reason why I'm not being lock clear - 100% the only reason - is because town are all newbies who don't understand mechanics. give me anyone reasonable and they'd mechanically, tonally, with my interactions with flipped scum, hardclear me.

[Toranaga]

I'm obviously a veteran, just never played on MS before this game

[Toranaga]

and I went through games to check what the mechanics look like in order to establish mulch's claim along with everyone else's claim. so I also have some understanding of MS mechanics, at least when it comes to normal 13er games here.

[Toranaga]

no, you go do that yourself

[Toranaga]

I have linked many games already, check my ISO if you wanna know

[Toranaga]

for you, yes. for you it's a scumtell. because you have been playing this for near a decade. you understand at least the basics of the mechanics to know 1) the setup does not exist in MS when I'm scum and 2) Mulch' visiting HEM hardclears me. you're the only player here that's supposed to know better, and yet you pretend you don't.

By that logic you're scum.

also, you have played with mulch before, and IIRC mulch in both alignments. you refused to acknowledge the great disparity between his scum and town play. you read him townie when it was pretty obvious by skimming his other games that this was hitting exactly his scum range, not his town range at all.

You're misrepresenting what I was actually arguing there - but I'll agree that I handwaved your meta case on him.
So?
That's still not a particularly valid case - and you should be aware of that.

you're also hardcore POE'd down if we are to clear tacos on the mulch interactions

[Toranaga]

process of elimination

once you remove people as likely scum partners of mulch and skitter it boils down to just thor

[Toranaga]

important to note: whoever mulch was trying to kill after skitter flipped is >>>>rand town, because he'd have to do the NKs himself and wouldn't send fruit to anyone, which would eventually out him and get him lynched.

[Toranaga]

W/e still not a lynch for today.

For now:

VOTE: HavingFitz

VOTE: sergetacos

01. Toranaga- Not lynching today
03. WhyMafia- Not lynching today
05. Porky- Most likely not lynching today, although I want their reasons for scumreading me

@Porky

07. Thor665- Not lynching today
09. Chip Butty- Most likely not lynching today
10. humaneatingmonkey- Most likely not lynching today
11. havingfitz Misère----> Good lynch target
12. Sergtacos (replaces Creative)----> Good lynch target
13. Mulch--- Not lynching today, especially as if scum get lynched I become an inno child and scum are forced to nightkill me at some point.

this is the stuff mulch was pushing for on d4 after the skitter flip. both fitz and tacos are likely lynches as people can't really clear them for any reason right now. mulch pushing for them looks good on them, because he couldn't possibly afford f7, f5 and f3 alone sending fruit to NKs in consecutive nights like he did. too bad tacos was never too close to getting lynched cause it could be enough to hardclear him otherwise.

[Toranaga]

fair to say fitz is hardcleared due to mulch f9 spew

[Toranaga]

I already said

process of elimination

[Toranaga]

fair to say fitz is hardcleared due to mulch f9 spew

f9 spew?

yes, the spew from when we had 9 players left.

with skitter dead, scum!mulch could not hard tunnel a scum player to get him lynched because he could never lategame with it. the reason is, scum!mulch would 'send fruit' 3 nights in a row exactly to the NK, which would make him very likely the last scum. he'd also eventually out himself on town PRs flipping, as you said, for the unlikelihood all PR claims are town (as 5 is overkill in a 13er).

mulch absolutely needed mislynches that gameday, and screamed the hardest for the fitz lynch. so fitz has to be town.

[Toranaga]

^actually 4 nights in a row.

also makes me look good on f7 but -theatrics-

[Toranaga]

on f9 as well, I think there was a spot where mulch voted tacos when thor was voting tacos. a little farfetched to assume tacos has to be town for it, but looks good. tacos asked mulch why he voted tacos and mulch went like 'I'm just frustrated tbh'. didn't seem like a w;w interaction like many interactions between tacos and mulch.

[Toranaga]

you're also hardcore POE'd down if we are to clear tacos on the mulch interactions

If I'm hardcore process of eliminationed down then you're using poor logic or are scum.
So what'sthe clear logic that clears Fitz and Serg and not me?
I'd love to hear that explained without you sounding daft.

I'm starting to think a fitz/you lynch is the way to a win right now.
And I'm even thinking its not you and you're just being daft.
Which leaves me wondering why you're clearing fitz for scum reading you and scum reading me for no defending you enough.

never fitz

scum play at f7 is nonsensical if I'm scum. if I get lynched mulch would sent fruit between f7 and f5, f5 and f3 to the NK. it would be highly suspicious.

so no. terrible pushes.

[Toranaga]

you wanted to lynch tacos the entire game and now it's either me or fitz huh

[Toranaga]

@chip butty @havingfitz trust me this one time and lynch thor ty

[Toranaga]

Read list:

Strong town:
Lean town: Whymafia
Null: Havo
between null and lean scum: Skitter
Lean scum: Monkey
Strong scum: Mulch and Chip

Skitter is weird, i town read Robb however when Skitter replaced in, his posts been sounding scummy.

^

here, tacos is already voting mulch and then throws that line on how he was townreading robb and started scumreading skitter. this is extremely hard post to make as a wolf and holy fuck GOAT reads.

[Toranaga]

[HEM]
[WM, Mulch, Skitter]
[Thor, Misere, Fykus]
[MariaR, Taco, Havo]
[BBT, Tora]

chip butty's d1 is very hard on defending scum and pushing town, but in a way I find kinda townie. I like his tone and the above post he just has two scum as his top town reads, which I assume is a little awkward for scum to actually go ahead and post this.

[Toranaga]

I'm here watching/reading. Mulling things over. :/

ask me anything, I'm willing to work now

[Toranaga]

No questions. My earlier sentiments still stand. When I'm not on my phone I may respond to some of your declarations/explanations today.

Fun fact...you've voted everyone left in the game today (D5), including yourself, except me.

yeah ok

if you lynch me this gameday, I think you're clear, I think tacos is clear. chip is likely a villager. thor is probably the correct lynch.

this is different from my tacos scumread, I wasn't even reading the game when I pushed for that. this is based. you can lynch me and probably still win if you lynch thor next gameday. check the interactions between mulch and tacos, they're extremely hard to fake as two wolves together.

[Toranaga]

btw fitz it's pretty much up to you. I'm sure chip would vote me ahead of thor and ofc thor will self pres on me. I just ask that you erase my conviction on tacos and on to thor for f3. I wasn't reading, I was piling on tacos for a pretty horrible EOD scumslip post he made... but the interactions with mulch are very very good on him.

[Toranaga]

Things I dislike about Toranga/things I need them to clear up

- Tor respond to this please if you can

0.

The more I think about it, the weirder it is that Tor claimed under basically no pressure. They are a good player. They HARDCLAIMED (someone that has advocated for softclaims in the past) with...3 votes? From someone that is obviously good at this game? I unerstand that some people just crack but it's definitely something to keep in mind. Then again, unless they are scum with Fykus (something not too farfetched as you will see later in this post), their claim sort of matches up with him. Dunno.

1.

I know your an experienced player. How often do you see scum blatantly defending their scumbuddies to the extent that they are adverse to voting them? You know that mafia isn't that simple. 1381 you put me/fykus/chip as a scumteam and base it off the reasoning that it's that we won't vote for each other, while you know this could be that we simply townread each other and the odds of us all being scum together would be astronomically high and dumb af as well.

2.

1383- did you ever actually look at Skitter's actual words? It's so simple to lock someone town because of effort but I want to know what you actually saw in them in terms of analysis that you liked at this moment. It's weird to me that you would say this, and I thought you would be more paranoid about them maybe pocketing you against Chip, especially because they basically copied your exact reasoning in 1364

3.

I really, really dislike 1396. You said that because my Iso was "exclusively pushing town", you 1) shoulden't listen to me. And 2) You were ready to put me as a wagon "ftw." This is bizzare to me that you would take such a close minded principle and let it drastically change your reads. Also, how would you know Miseré is town? I don't believe in perspective slips but it's quite frankly shocking that you would make this presumption especially as you have been pushing them as scum all game. I think that it's possible that if Tor is scum then they spewed Miseré town.

4.

1401. This is WEIRD. they are pushing Fykus all game and then they vaguely hint at a role and now they don't want to lynch them. They were going at it with passion and hunger and were even saying "I desparately want to lynch them." My suspicion with this is that they had already build their mindset around pushing people for the Havo push, and in order to reinforce this they HAD to say "wow, we shoulden't push people who soft claim." because if they DID push for a hardclaim for fykus, which is what town!tor actually does imo because they were hard scumreading him, they would have to admit that the people pushing Havo early game weren't scummy. And therefore losing valuable leverage.

5.

Besides the role fishing (sadly done by town too much), I'm in shock at two basic ideas that they bring out that

directly contradict each other

. First of all, why are they building things on setup spec without even being here for any time... But here we go. Idea 1:

There are too many roles, so Mulch's item giver might be scum or else it would be too much power to town

. Ok, I can see this as a point of view. Its wrong (towns are stacked af here because they are so bad), but I can see it- 1407 btw. But THEN they also say... Fruit Vendor isn't an AI specific role. If a role is AI, it dosne't count towards town power. He's somehow pushing the notion that I am giving too much power to town to be legit AND that I am NAI in one fell swoop. He can't push me on both. It dosen't make SENSE. This is probably the most damning thing that they do imo. It literally cannot cross my mind how they can think my role is too much for town and also NAI for town. Side note: IF I am a fruit vendor, the sole purpose of it is to prove I don't do a nightkill lategame. So it literally makes zero sense for it to be a scum role. It's possible but it's like...not possible.

6.

1420 This is a lie/exagerration/falsehood. There can easily be scum trackers, while I don't even know if a scum fruit vendor has ever even existed. In fact, Giga's game had a scum tracker...

7.

At this point in 1421 Tor has said: I am a likely partner with Fykus. I am a likely partner with Chip. And (spoilers) they would go on to say that I am a likely partner with Skitter. I'm getting the sense they are trying to bullshit any reasoning they possibly can to link me as a fucking partner to anyone.

8.

1430 is a fucking hellacious reach right here. I've never seen worse reasoning in my life and I can't get into their mindset here. Make your own conclusions on this, I don't need to spell out how bad it is (let alone the fact scumslips don't exist). 1432 their confidence level just dosen't fucking match the situation. How can they be this fucking confident I am scum after changing it on a "whim" on reasoningg that I have "pushed town" let alone with a "scumslip" that dosen't exist. This confidence level is so weird relative to their words.

9.

1461 this idiot has it in for me and is determined to do it at all costs, even working with, at this point, someone they were SO SURE WERE SCUM that they called one of their posts a scumslip. Yet they are working with them to lynch me? Remember, I"m going to be a fucking mislynch. I get that working with your scumreads is fine to lynch a harder one. But a SCUMSLIP LEVEL scumread, and you think they can now be town and want to WORK with them? I don't fucking get it. And then 1465 they pander to ME to lynch Chip... and then have what is seeming to be a guise of "thinking" in 1464. Thinking of ways to turn us against each other, I think...

10.

^ Apparently that was a "reaction test". Cmon man...

11.

Somthing that just occured to me and they even brushed on in 1486... I'm not the only one that has been pushing on all town. a shitton of people had been doing it too, LIKE misére and Skitter as they alluded to in this. Yet they have been trying to find every possible excuse for me not to be scum and haven't' even considered it for anyone else. This proves they are confirmation biased on me, although to be fair town do that too. But it's another thing to just keep in mind.

12.

In 1492- how in the world have you identified bluebloodedtoffee as "clean." ? He's literally done nothing allignment indicative the entire game. Very null. As in, by definition null. This reeks of someone trying to twist a narrative to fit their point. And in a scummy way. Their reasoning in 1496 which dosen't even take into account the possibility of bussing and just flat out elimintes pairs by "they voted for each other" is super shallow...

13.

1504 makes sense to me, I can see where they are coming from. Pretty towny PoV actually, except for the fact that they are basing their read on Chip on the fact that I am scum (wrongly), which does 3 things- 1) endears them to Chip 2) Makes Chip want to turn against me because of qualms of "pocketing" and 3) Somehow manages to make it seem like I am scum again for peculiar reason.

Keep in mind: I am town. So every single basic point for Tor has somehow revolved around me being scum for doing something TWO OR THREE OTHER PEOPLE DID, and is trying to manipulate accordingly.

14.

Mulch is scummy. there are plenty posts of his where the tone is off.

Why haven't you brought this up beforehand? Why are you only saying this now? This is probably the second worse post they did because I have phenomanal tone as both town and scum. As town my tone is naturally good and as scum I've been called a sociopath it's that good. My tone is NEVER BAD.

They also in this post push me for the theory disagreement AGAIN and continue and continue to say that me pushing Havo to hardclaim is scummt despite TOWNREADING Chip right now while he did the SAME THING. Unbelievable. They are pushing me as scum while they hard townread someone who did the same thing. They are twisting their fucking narrative to accomplish their agenda. And incredibly, they are still wrong. It was the right move to force him to hardclaim, and I will never back down from this.

15.

1513 is sort of simple but I kind of like it. But... reminder that they called "lock town" to Skitter before. It's such a drastic change. Sure, they could change their mind. But "lock town" to "top scum" just isn't natural... I don't think even I have done that, and I change opinions more than anyone.

16.

They keep talking about the possibility of the mod conf-towning me as if it's a real possibility and they are AFRAID of this happening in 1540 and 1543. First off, why are they thinking this would happen if I'm scum. Second, why are they discouraging Tacos to try it? Shoulden't they be happy if I'm conf-towned? Why are they adverse to this idea and possibility?

17.

His push of Maria is pretty bad around these pages.

This a LIE and TOTAL BULLSHIT.

Third worst point. Lo and behold, look at this;

there's some good stuff in 175 from mulch. I like his maria read and it mirrors what I found was scummy of her back when she posted those things.

They LIKED it. Now it's "bad". No.

18.

also interesting to point out that Mulch is doing a lot of reading early on but never gets to read into skitter's L-1 vote on Havo.

Another lie.

I defended Skitter for this, I didn't ignore it. 661. 773

19

And finally, with the newest pair that Tor has manipulated into being with me (third time now in this entire post, and to top it off they haven't even voted me lmao even though all their scum pairs apparently have me in it? Probably because when they flip me they are gonna look bad)...they have uptmost confidence in it just like the others. 1571

fitz, just look at this. do you really think this guy was scum with me and wrote all that shit about me

[Toranaga]

My top scumreads are Skitter and Mulch, and I think there's a lot of evidence ITT from the 3 big wagons that support it. the Havo wagon had Skitter putting him at L-1, interacting for an hour and not unvoting after the softclaim, and then unvoting only after I left that wagon and moved somewhere to avoid capping. Felt like she was waiting. And then Mulch appeared ITT some 20 minutes later, when lynching Havo was no longer a thing, and went 'this game is moving fast!'. then he started pressured Havo super hard for a hardclaim, and voted him and shaded Maria for terrible reasons all around. if Mulch appeared ITT earlier, he'd have capped the loyal Cop with Skitter's help.

Throughout D1 Mulch avoided reading into the Havo wagon and kept shading other posters. A wagon starts on Maria, Mulch is hard pressing her, and then Skitter appears once again with the L-1 vote. this time she probably thought it was L-2, but the problem is she was townreading Maria! The case against Maria was extremely thin anyway, she just quoted some hedgy posts and went 'ew' and voted there. doesn't feel very real to me. and Mulch was the first one to notice Maria was capped, which I'm sure is >rand scum cause scum is paying more attention. the way he phrased it started with 'I think Virt fucked this one up bad' and then 'why did nobody else notice this' which doesn't feel very genuine.

who is wolfing with this pair, IDK. chip has equity, HEM has equity. misère has equity.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ come on

[Toranaga]

fitz I handed the game to town, the least you could do is trust me on thor now. you're scumreading me for really awful reasons. 'inconsistent' isn't scummy. game is long, come on.

[Toranaga]

fair to say fitz is hardcleared due to mulch f9 spew

f9 spew?

yes, the spew from when we had 9 players left.

with skitter dead, scum!mulch could not hard tunnel a scum player to get him lynched because he could never lategame with it. the reason is, scum!mulch would 'send fruit' 3 nights in a row exactly to the NK, which would make him very likely the last scum. he'd also eventually out himself on town PRs flipping, as you said, for the unlikelihood all PR claims are town (as 5 is overkill in a 13er).

mulch absolutely needed mislynches that gameday, and screamed the hardest for the fitz lynch. so fitz has to be town.

I'll have to go back and look at that - but I didn't feel like Mulch was actually pushing much of either of them that well.
Also, I would note I just lynched Skitter - it would be daft of him to push me if I was town jsut as much as it would be daft to push me if I was scum.
So the logic here is very thin as far as I can see.

you wanted to lynch tacos the entire game and now it's either me or fitz huh

Yes.
And?

he was pushing very very hard for the fitz lynch. he was asking people to join him on the wagon.

aaaaaand is pretty inconsistent with what you've been saying and, unlike me, it's not like you did any work in the game to change your reads.

[Toranaga]

on that part of the argument I'm not saying you're scum because mulch never pushed you. I'm saying fitz is town because mulch hard tunneled for his lynch.

[Toranaga]

Right now it's L-2---- Mulch, Tor, Pork.


If we get another vote to L-1---Mulch, Tor, Pork, X--- I will unvote, and then when we get to another L-1 vote I will immediately hammer.

^ here thor, 9 people left. and he has been screaming for this stuff, just go see it yourself. if mulch manages to get fitz lynched as scum with him, he'll send fruit f9 to a nk, f7 to a nk, f5 to to a nk. he'll have visited the NK 3 times in a row and needs 3 mislynches to win, while hard POE'd down for other mechanical reasons as well. it's a disaster of a play and I'm sure he didn't do it. fitz is town.

[Toranaga]

PLEASE CAN WE JUST LYNCH MISERE SLOT I AM SUPER CONFIDENT THEY HIT SCUM

Thor for somene that prides themselves on good reasoning you have shit reasoning for why they are town, or none at all

----------------------------> Me when Fitz flips scum

^

[Toranaga]

notice this is the same overreactive tone he used to push maria, havo and me.

[Toranaga]

I'm going to be very confused if mulch flips town, and I know he doesn't have much reason to be lying about it but... it's such a terrible coincidence that mulch would send HEM fruit and HEM would actually get NKed instead of me. I really don't think my spot is defensible anymore from any logical standpoint... if I was any of you, I'd be screaming for my lynch because only a wolf team with me would actually kill HEM.

A lot of problems I had with trying to get a read off people this game was how obtusely pro-scum a lot of them were. Particularly mulch who I know to be a good and reasonable player. I don't understand why he pushed havo as hard as he did, and I don't understand why he'd push so hard for the maria lynch and townread skitter... I'm baffled and honestly very confused with his play.

I'll understand getting lynched in lylo and if I was any of you guys, that's what I'd do. but I'm trying to come up with some logic as to why HEM got NKed instead of me, when his claim was so ridiculous and when mulch was town. because if mulch is town and cheeky is town, that's literally 6 town claimable roles if HEM was telling the truth. it just makes no sense to ever believe it... it only fits with mulch. even if wolves decided to frame me, I think just leaving me unroleblocked to possibly track a scum player is a terrible idea. there's also outing mechanics where E.G.: mulch gives someone who is alive fruit, and I track a possible wolf not going anywhere, and then we lynch that player... that would clear mulch.

so... a team without mulch would have to believe the claim if they're playing the game to their win condition. they can't even be confident me and mulch are going to hard tunnel each other because, honestly, I wasn't that prepared to call mulch scum before he claimed his fruit. it's really... it would be really bad for scum!mulch to actually just send fruit and leave his partner to do the NK when I could track him. I think this is a thought I'm >rand to have at some point, and doubt mulch could do this as a frame attempt.

if mulch is town I'm hardclearing thor. I said that already... one of us is playing a shit town game, and apparently that's me. also, thor just seems way to smart to do the HEM NK.

I think cheeky is too smart to the HEM NK, and honestly I'm just 100% buying into that miller claim based off hers and WM's tone. if that's a scum slot, that's legit great play.

I'm left with 2 out of 3 in the chip butty, sergtacos and fitz wolf team. I don't think they tried framing, so it's all about... just which of these 3 players don't understand mechanics well enough to know HEM's claim was not believable.

I think we can be sure that serg and chip aren't wolfing together based off chip's EOD's push on serg. he actually noticed some pretty telling wolfy stuff from serg there. and as bad as I think chip is, I don't see him buying into HEM's claim at all. in fact, if chip butty is actually scum, he is a lot smarter than what he is letting us on. so he probably wouldn't do that NK for framing, and he wouldn't believe HEM's story.

we're left with sergtacos and fritz... I think tacos made an extremely wolfy post last gameday, which is why I tracked him. and I think fritz just kinda works well with these 2 and skitter. f5 with chip butty I'm probably getting voted and since I think he is the villager, we lose right there.

I could never clear mulch, man. I tried so hard to do it, but... so many things. both mechanically, tonal, agenda driven posts... IDK. I'm still kinda baffled.

look at this wall of text I wrote when mulch claimed he was lynched and would flip town. how can anyone scumread me

[Toranaga]

I'm going to be very confused if mulch flips town, and I know he doesn't have much reason to be lying about it but... it's such a terrible coincidence that mulch would send HEM fruit and HEM would actually get NKed instead of me. I really don't think my spot is defensible anymore from any logical standpoint... if I was any of you, I'd be screaming for my lynch because only a wolf team with me would actually kill HEM.

A lot of problems I had with trying to get a read off people this game was how obtusely pro-scum a lot of them were. Particularly mulch who I know to be a good and reasonable player. I don't understand why he pushed havo as hard as he did, and I don't understand why he'd push so hard for the maria lynch and townread skitter... I'm baffled and honestly very confused with his play.

I'll understand getting lynched in lylo and if I was any of you guys, that's what I'd do. but I'm trying to come up with some logic as to why HEM got NKed instead of me, when his claim was so ridiculous and when mulch was town. because if mulch is town and cheeky is town, that's literally 6 town claimable roles if HEM was telling the truth. it just makes no sense to ever believe it... it only fits with mulch. even if wolves decided to frame me, I think just leaving me unroleblocked to possibly track a scum player is a terrible idea. there's also outing mechanics where E.G.: mulch gives someone who is alive fruit, and I track a possible wolf not going anywhere, and then we lynch that player... that would clear mulch.

so... a team without mulch would have to believe the claim if they're playing the game to their win condition. they can't even be confident me and mulch are going to hard tunnel each other because, honestly, I wasn't that prepared to call mulch scum before he claimed his fruit. it's really... it would be really bad for scum!mulch to actually just send fruit and leave his partner to do the NK when I could track him. I think this is a thought I'm >rand to have at some point, and doubt mulch could do this as a frame attempt.

if mulch is town I'm hardclearing thor. I said that already... one of us is playing a shit town game, and apparently that's me. also, thor just seems way to smart to do the HEM NK.

I think cheeky is too smart to the HEM NK, and honestly I'm just 100% buying into that miller claim based off hers and WM's tone. if that's a scum slot, that's legit great play.

I'm left with 2 out of 3 in the chip butty, sergtacos and fitz wolf team. I don't think they tried framing, so it's all about... just which of these 3 players don't understand mechanics well enough to know HEM's claim was not believable.

I think we can be sure that serg and chip aren't wolfing together based off chip's EOD's push on serg. he actually noticed some pretty telling wolfy stuff from serg there. and as bad as I think chip is, I don't see him buying into HEM's claim at all. in fact, if chip butty is actually scum, he is a lot smarter than what he is letting us on. so he probably wouldn't do that NK for framing, and he wouldn't believe HEM's story.

we're left with sergtacos and fritz... I think tacos made an extremely wolfy post last gameday, which is why I tracked him. and I think fritz just kinda works well with these 2 and skitter. f5 with chip butty I'm probably getting voted and since I think he is the villager, we lose right there.

I could never clear mulch, man. I tried so hard to do it, but... so many things. both mechanically, tonal, agenda driven posts... IDK. I'm still kinda baffled.

look at this wall of text I wrote when mulch claimed he was lynched and would flip town. how can anyone scumread me

[Toranaga]

fitz wrt inconsistencies with my tracks and who I want lynched: the fykus track wouldn't change much because there were still 3 scum players alive and obviously, if I tracked him, was because I scumread him. the tacos track is absolutely irrelevant because we all know mulch did the NK, not his partner. this result changes nothing in what my reads are supposed to be.

[Toranaga]

I'm talking about fitz here, not sergtacos. I'm not clearing sergtacos for that gameday, I'm saying it looks good on him. I'm clearing fitz.

why is sergtacos suddenly town? why is fitz scum? why am I scum?

[Toranaga]

I'm starting to think a fitz/you lynch is the way to a win right now.
And I'm even thinking its not you and you're just being daft.

I mean, this is literally where you have to be getting fitz and you as scum.

BUT ARE YOU SMART ENOUGH TO READ THE SECOND LINE YOU DERP?

Stop wasting my time with idiocy - seriously now, I'm not hiding my thoughts.

hm? I mean there's one scum left, you're saying it's fitz, I'm saying it's not fitz because of how hard mulch pushed him on d3. do you need me to explain the point again? mulch had fitz at L-2 and was instigating you, HEM and chip to vote with him. if he got that lynch, he'd be the last scum left. he'd then be mechanically outed by sending multiple 'fruit' to the NKs. it's not fitz.

[Toranaga]

and apparently I'm clearing sergtacos for the same reasons you're clearing sergtacos...

[Toranaga]

maybe you're failing to comprehend why the push on fitz is clearing, and comparing to your push on skitter makes no sense:

if scum is mulch and fitz, and fitz gets lynched on d3, mulch will have n3, n4 and n5 where he'll 'send fruit' to the person getting NKed because he is the only scum left. he'll be outed and lynched as a result. he can't be hard advocating for a scum partner lynch on d3 because he cannot make endgame as a scum fruit vendor.

what can't you understand in this?

[Toranaga]

YOU can endgame as scum

MULCH cannot endgame as scum, especially if both partners are dead by d3.

therefore you pushing skitter doesn't mean you're town at all. mulch pushing fitz on d3 - screaming for his lynch even - is clearing of fitz.

[Toranaga]

I'm responding to what I think is relevant. I'm telling you exactly why fitz is cleared and you're pretending to not understand what the point is. you're even comparing it with you pushing skitter and "fail to understand the difference in the pushes", which is not only awful but seriously alignment indicative.

I'm not meta reading you. you wanna know why? because you asked me the same thing on d3 about mulch, I went through a bunch of his games, hard cased him based off meta, and you simply ignored it. and I'm especially not 'metaing' you because you think bussing is bad or whatever. In fact, if you're scum, then clearly you don't like to bus since you didn't even push mulch when he was mechanically outed.

[Toranaga]

Toranaga is pushing the point that Mulch can't allow himself to be last Mafia standing because he would have to keep sending fruit to his NKs and would thereby out himself.

Okay

So, why no fruit n3? With 2 mafia remaining, he could send fruit and have his scumbuddy do the kill.

Unless his scumbuddy HAD to do something else that night. Like produce an expected track result. But Mulch giving fruit and Toranaga tracking leaves nobody to do the NK, so not appealing to Mulch-Toranaga scum team.

Solution to that problem: Mulch sends fruit to HEM (or doesn't send to anyone) and NKs him. Toranaga does his track/rolescan. D4 Toranaga fights Mulch for towncred, making sure to harp on about the fruit thing. Mulch self-destructs to avoid the same problem arising n5 and try to boost Toranaga's towncred.

So i don't think all this stuff Toranaga is spewing helps him, really.

you're so bad.

I'm tracker, that's why mulch had to kill HEM. otherwise I could have track his scum buddy doing the NK and out him, that's why mulch visited HEM.

ROLESCANNER doesn't need to do anything on n3 because all the villager PRs were outed already you genius. 'spewing', you're the only one spewing. spewing BS.

[Toranaga]

the ONLY reason mulch was lynched was because of me. I was the one who outed he made no sense visiting HEM and why he did it, and got him lynched as a result.

[Toranaga]

god you guys are horrible

[Toranaga]

you wanna think mulch outed himself doing the HEM NK because on N3 - when all the village PRs were outed already - I felt the need to 'track' or 'rolescan' a vanilla townie player. you really want town to lose don't you chip.

[Toranaga]

I carried this town so far. mulch would never get lynched and would always win the game if it wasn't for me, and if thor is the last scum definitely he'd win the game with mulch. I've been screaming that skitter and mulch are scum since d2 and had the game down on d3 - as long as thor is scum - and nobody has any reason to be scumreading me at all. I've cleared town and pushed scum all game. I outed scum when everyone else was too clueless to understand what was going on. but sure chip, just fucking lynch me then, because you really want me to be scum so you're throwing away evidence that's hardclearing of my slot because of it.

I have already explained how this game doesn't even exist in MS if I'm a scum PR. look at other 13er normal games. look at the most recent 13er normal game with a goddamn scum fruit vendor - and guess who was the only player talking about scum fruit vendor, that's right, I was. this is the setup:

viewtopic.php?p=9158679#p9158679

villa:
ascetic
gunsmith
vig
2 shot tracker
6x vanilla

mafia:
loud fruit vendor
2x goon

4 town roles, 1 mafia fruit vendor + 2 mafia goon.

the setup here if I'm town:

miller
loyal cop
even gunsmith
odd tracker

vs

scum fruit vendor
2x mafia goon


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

now find me a game with 2 claimable roles for mafia vs 3 town roles, including one useless like miller. you will not find it because MS doesn't play anything that favors scum. because town in MS just destroys other town all the time e.g. still scumreading me on f5.

[Toranaga]

there, EXACTLY SAME SET UP, town had a full gunsmith and a vig, ascetic and 2x tracker while scum only had the loud fruit vendor. that game is actually much more town-favored than this one in case you believe my tracker claim. and the role mulch had was a carbon copy of that one, so guess what kind of set up you're playing here.

no but I'm 'spewing'. you're not clueless and just wants me to be scum nononono.

[Toranaga]

unvote

thor, I'll meta you. not on what you think of bussing cause that's ridiculous. I'll meta you like I meta'd mulch.

[Toranaga]

I do need some things from you too:

1 - figure out I'm hardclear (mulch visited HEM, set up speculations, hard pushing wolves all game);
2 - figure out what mulch pushing fitz means on d3 and how that widely differentiates from you pushing skitter.

no reason to be obtuse about these things.

[Toranaga]

I am hardcleared thor. why else would mulch visit HEM? I'd do the NK and he'd send fruit to someone else. +, he tried very hard to lynch me on f7 and could have succeeded, that'd be three nights in a row sending 'fruit' to the NK until f3 for him. a very hard case to sell. there's no way scum!mulch and scum!me would come up with such an awful plan.

+ the setup. look at the goddamn setup for this game where I'm scum and figure out there's no way this game could be run on mafiascum. remember, I may not be a confirmed villager, but I am a confirmed power role due to my d2 claim.

and no, 'no one has ever managed an accurate take on before' doesn't mean I won't. according to mulch he was IMPOSSIBLE to tone read and I caught a bunch of glaring differences between his villa and wolf range - to the point where he was just obvious once I meta read him.

[Toranaga]

hm.

I think I noticed something.

[Toranaga]

finally found a good thor scum game, got lynched d2 and reacted a lot to pressure here:

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=67206&hilit=thor665

and here he also got lynched d2, but as a town mislynched

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=68715&hilit=thor665

so those are good starting points.

a bunch of other town games if I wanna read them later:
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=67451
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=68244

posting here for myself

[Toranaga]

thor, was that your last scum game? I'm excluding that one with a pair of scum and a pair of werewolves, that's a terrible game to analyze and your partner was dead when you subbed in. you seem to have gotten lynched because you 'don't bus' there.

one thing about your skitter push is that it particularly makes sense if you're setting yourself up as a lategame scum. it's a good push and I did get some townie;honest vibes from it reading it now, but since mulch was fruit vendor and couldn't endgame, and skitter made the terrible mistake of L-1'ing a player and then acting as if she 'missed' havo softclaimed before unvoting him (and only doing so when I unvoted him), I can see how optimal your push is as a scum partner, to get you deep in the game. also, it's extremely exploitable to be lock clearing you just because you pushed a wolf. there's a moment for everything, including bussing, and I'm sure an experienced player such as yourself understand it's merits and how it can get scum far in a game.

[Toranaga]

okay

as it is, based off what I read and based off your ISO, you're the f5 lynch here definitely.

not only by POE, but I see a more analytical player with better mechanical understanding town!thor and a more reactive scum!thor. it's not enough for much, but from what I read of your games I assume town!thor would, at the very least, take mulch sending HEM fruit more seriously than 'derpy' and work out by himself that tacos wouldn't necessarily be a good lynch this gameday, instead of announcing a will to lynch tacos, followed by, also reactively, changing his lynch target from tacos to fitz based off work and points other people brought up. not that the last part is scummy, I'm simply assuming a more proactively town!thor position this gameday than all the coasting you're doing.

you can't be cleared on the skitter lynch because you 'don't bus'.

this and the last gameday you're playing pretty poorly. you're almost only reacting to my posts and not doing any work yourself. that's scummy and that's different from your normal game.

[Toranaga]

it's 'comically' exploitable

[Toranaga]

tacos would be my weakest because he did write wolfy stuff (especially wrt porkens lynch), and he is definitely not playing up to his normal aids-y town meta. he is not playing this gameday and is slanking hard. I don't like his vote on me but everyone is scumreading me one way or the other so IDK if that holds any weight.

it would be the case where mulch would set himself up to be eventually flipped and tacos would bus him the entire game. with great tone in the interactions, sure, but still.

I stand by that d3 stuff with fitz being clearing of his slot. mulch did not play to endgame this at all, and I'm sure he knew that. he wouldn't bus for credit on d3 after skitter flipped because he'd be eventually outed anyway.

I guess chip butty deserves me meta reading him but I do find his overrall behaviour townie in his own awful chip butty way. it does need re-eval at any f3 though.

[Toranaga]

"Oh Thor doesn't bus...but" it doesn't matter that you're saying you don't bus. you have definitely bussed in the past and will bus in the future as long as you keep playing. this point means nothing to me.
"Oh lots of people were not swayed by my meta case including Thor...but" you were the one asking for it. you were saying my case would be relevant if I had strong meta that this was mulch wolf game and I showed to you it was. fuck man, I HANDED mulch to you. none of you did anything about it until cheeky started listening to me.

let me go back and you can read just how absolutely based that case was:

Your logic is based on what opinion o fhis experience?
Like - you think he's lying about what he believes is proper play to that degree?
I find that unlikely.
I don't do that as scum, do you?

you're limiting a read that spuns over +400 posts of his and almost a month of playing to a discussion on whether he is lying or not about what he considers proper play. and there's probably no way to know if he is lying or telling the truth about what he considers proper play because the Havo spot was very specific and unlikely to have come up in a different game.

what did Mulch do that was towny? getting 'upset' and death tunneling people hits hard into his scum meta. look at this posts here: viewtopic.php?t=72581&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go his d1 posts to llama are a carbon copy of how he tunneled maria and Havo, and llama is town there as well. so his 'tone' isn't towny, there's nothing towny about death tunneling me, maria and havo. his 20 points against me are all forced reads that I can't see town!mulch bothering himself with. if he were to case me as town, he'd cut to the chase. he tried finding anything that's mildly incriminating, and he did it after I was set on him and skitter being scum. he reacted exactly in the way I'd assume scum!mulch would, when skitter is also scum. he also didn't seem to take into account my tracker claim (unchallenged by fykus) and even got to the point of scumreading both of us (two claimed town PRs! lol!). his d2 interactions with skitter are scummy and feel like scum on scum interactions. his vote on her was bad, even you agree. his 'emotions' are all reading as fake to me, especially when he death tunneled havo. he was very bothered for no reason!

there are perspective slips, hard defense of scum and hard push of town throughout the whole game. he dishonestly used the fruit vendor claim to try and locktown himself, because he literally has to have no idea what fruit vendor is to assume it's a town role... and if he has no idea what it is, he'd google it and find out it doesn't actually indicate alignment. there's noticing maria was MAJed, and the way he did it was scummy. and even today he appears to be absolutely howling.

now I could be wrong, you could be right... but you're reducing what a case on mulch would look like to a -matter of opinion in theory- instead of looking at the bigger picture, and that's pretty scummy regardless of Mulch's alignment.

look at mulch overreacting to a single vote on him and death tunneling the town that dared to do it in that game. where did I see that before?

in fact reading that mulch scum game: you have absolutely no basis to townread mulch here thor. his tone is extremely similar and he is bold and aggressive as scum.

mulch's town game getting mislynched d1:

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=72708&user_select%5B%5D=29820

a calm, recollected, rational and very towny mulch, who had so many gutreads and change of opinions that I'm very surprised he actually ate a d1 mislynch here. contrast his posts there, wagoned and lynched d1, and how reasonable he was to all of it, with his scum game when a single vote would take mulch into an angry rant + death tunnel. and then compare those two to this one.

here is another d1 mislynch he ate, much more recent:

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=72397

very similar attitude to the july game! also terrible d1 lynches in both games IMO.

I skimmed others. I think the one I posted before is his only scum game I read. but when mulch is town, he is always pretty calm and seems to have a great time playing, even when wagoned. on his only other scumgame, he plays almost exactly like he did here. often pretty upset, overreacting to pushes, death tunneling players and being pretty loud and bold. as town mulch is actually trying to solve the game so his entire perspective is much different. and he doesn't even balance apparently... town mulch has gut reads, changes his opinion all the time, is very nuanced and doesn't really get overly wordy like he did here.

and you play with him, thor. why are you not scumreading him?

there thor, done my homework. yes the feeling is different. and yes, I played with town mulch a few times.

"Oh Thor helped lynch a scum...but" but so what. everyone alive helped scum get lynched in this game. I not only outed mulch and hammered skitter, but was not on the maria wagon and was not on the porkens wagon. you were. so you want to be townread for pushing skitter, well where the hell is my lock clear then.

"Oh multiple people including Thor were attacked by flipped scum...but" when did scum attack you again? apart from that weak ass mulch push last gameday, when exactly did that happen?

[Toranaga]

from what fucking perspective are you playing that you're not lock clearing me? I don't care that chip butty and tacos and fitz aren't doing it, yes I'm holding you to a higher fucking regard. for you, it's scummy.

[Toranaga]

Also, as I keep saying, though I am willing to accept there is scum within the PRs, there is *assuredly* at least one scum outside of the PRs, and since scum is obligated to kill off actual PRs, the theory scum inside the PRs is in a diceier situation than the assured one outside of them. So let's tey to lynch a partner.
Who do you see as a good Skitter partner (desperately trying to blind yourself to your Mulch tunnel) outside the PRs?

I think it's got to be porkens or Serg. It miiiiiight be havingfitz, but I don't think so. And I think Chip is very clear, and I think humaneatingmonkeys is...well, softly clear from VCA. Porkens and Serg, however, both look very bad to me. Would you at least agree to my two as the best two? Or am I overlooking something (again, shut the hell up about Mulch when answering this, as unless you can defeat my PR v. unclaimed logic you're not getting Mulch support from me today)

^ thor what happened to 'there is *assuredly* at least one scum outside of the PRs'? mulch was scum in the PRs, shouldn't I be lock clear then?

[Toranaga]

Thor, the 'PR' logic is pretty shit actually. if 'there has to be scum' between the PR claims, which may or may not be the case, then mulch is scum because I'm the tracker and WM has played a perfect miller game + the sub is townie speaking about it. I know I'm not convincing you to vote mulch, as you're no longer convincing me to vote either porkens, fitz or tacos. I kinda think they're all mislynches at this point. I especially have NO REASON to ever vote porkens this gameday.

I think you're misunderstanding my stance.
I think there is assured scum in the non-PRs.
I am willing to accept that there is scum in the PRs, but I don't consider that as an assurance.
Now what do you think of the logic now that you understand it?

WM has not played a perfect Miller game, unless a perfect Miller game is to claim early.

Why do you have no reason to vote Porkens? I've explained my specific issues with his reads, and I don't have much undying love for his predecessor slot.
I can understand maybe having some sort of slim gut read - but a lock town sort of position for the day seems really weird to me.

mechanically hard defense of scum, but that whole "there is assured scum in the non-PRs" talk suddenly disappears in f5.

[Toranaga]

ok, you don't have to defend yourself.

serg would be my strongest clear if mulch was scum, as an ongoing read before mulch flipped. now that mulch flipped, I re-evaluated that stuff from d3 that I didn't before. this fitz hardclear for d3 I only really considered this gameday.

[Toranaga]

also I wasn't explaining why you're scum, I was simply rebating your several "Oh..." points that were all bad

[Toranaga]

back to hardclearing tacos fwiw

[Toranaga]

I have linked many games already, check my ISO if you wanna know

You're lock town to me. I don't think scum would bother checking.

UNVOTE: Tor

Scum wouldn't bothwr checking what?

checking mulch games to establish his meta

scum wouldn't bother doing many of things I did this game

[Toranaga]

hardclearing tacos
hardclearing fitz (pending a re-read)
unclearing chip
still on thor basically

[Toranaga]

yeah thor > chip wins the game

wish I had one lock read but I don't

it really isn't tacos and I'd be very surprised if it's fitz

[Toranaga]

checking mulch games to establish his meta

You were checking game mechanics moreso than Mulch from what I'm skimming over.

I'm at the ppint where I think lynching Thor and Tor in whatever order results in a win. I don't know if Taco and Chip (cool hydra name potential) feel the same way but if both of them vote one of you I'll hammer. If you or Thor bring tje other to L-1 I would probably want to hear from whichever of them wasn't on that wagon.

@Tor. Whose scum if not Thor?

@Thor...who's scum if not me?

Ebwop...Tor says Chip.

you're wrong, you're not properly reading the game.

I have built a case on mulch entirely based off of reading many of his other games as per thor's request. I quoted them in this page. if you were reading you'd be hardclearing me, clearly you're not.

[Toranaga]

Alright, on to looking for another scum, however my vote is parked on Mulch until I find a scummier person than him.

How is Mulch scummy exactly?
How is Skitter less scummy than Mulch?

very interesting post