Newbie 1495 (DAY 4) - The One where Everyone got Murdered

[Shinobi]

I've played mafia for almost a year now, but this is only my second game on mafiascum and my fifth forum game overall. The forum mafia format is quite different from chatbox mafia.

VOTE: Moratorium

Omgus.

[Shinobi]

UNVOTE: Moratorium

Yeah, L-1 too fast. Not gonna risk it.

Hi Xay. Did you roll scum again?

[Shinobi]

Xay likes to egg on bandwagons when he's scum. I have no firsthand experience with his town game.

(Also, mod, I'm not voting Moratorium anymore. >.>)

VOTE: Mafia Moderator

Moderate this.

[Shinobi]

If there's anything any of the newbies might stand to learn from a Newbie Game, it's to get the hell out of the Random Voting stage, because it's a big waste of time.

vote: Xayzeck

Woah L-2

VOTE: Aegor

Because you can use RVS as an excuse for L-2

Because it allows derphammers and it's dumb

Yes, page 1 L-2 votes are dumb. Totally agree with you, Town Xayzeck from Not-This-Game.

Aww. Whatever man.

UNVOTE: Mafia Moderator

How is it that Hashtag is hiding behind RVS? I don't particularly understand what you're saying, because it seems like he's goofing off just like everyone else.

[Shinobi]

Nevermind, I just realized what you were saying. (Though I disagree with the choice of words, but that point is moot)

I too would like to hear about Hashtag's reasoning for his vote.

[Shinobi]

Hi.

So this game is moving ridiculously slowly. I think it's a little ridiculous that it has been four days and nothing significant has happened.

I have a little theory, so hear me out if you want. I think the person we should be focusing on right now is Malakittens. In the last game I took part in, the IC stirred up discussion almost immediately and took control of everything and helped us vote off scum day 1. Obviously, Malakittens is not Thor665, but I sincerely doubt someone with experience would just sit in the back and chill while nothing happened for several days if they were town. (There's plenty that could get in the way of this thought process, but what the fuck, nothing is happening so why the hell not?)

I'm going to vote her and see what happens. Call it random, I don't really care. She's supposed to be the most experienced player here and she has done nothing.

VOTE: Malakittens

[Shinobi]

Yes, it's a slow start.

I'm not sure if holding your vote until others have posted will really encourage posting. Moving your vote to apply pressure is probably the better way to go rather than let it idle.

Have you meta'd her, Shinobi? I think she always has a slow start.

I have not. I'm guessing that was obvious.

Fuck it, I still wanna see what she says/does.

[Shinobi]

Ok, I most certainly want to hear more from Mala, but I like what I'm getting so far. On another topic:

Hi all,

VOTE: NL

Why are you voting for a no-lynch?

[Shinobi]

Both of you are being scummy. I want you both to sit down and actually write about what you think is happening right now.

I really,

really

don't like the fact that BBT says he's doing stuff and then gives us no information whatsoever. If you're town, you need to be as open with your reads as possible rather than sitting back and picking at each other and trying to just poke holes in arguments. Having a steady flow of contribution is exactly what town needs right now, not...Whatever this back-and-forth is supposed to be.

I could almost say the exact same thing for Moratorium right now. You're being intentionally obtuse and giving the town nothing to work with. How are we supposed to solve the game if you don't talk to us? We can't figure out your alignment if you say nothing.

Both of you are being scummy right now. If you're town, you need to stop that shit and actually keep discussion going rather than posting one-liners that ultimately accomplish nothing.

[Shinobi]

Both of you are being scummy. I want you both to sit down and actually write about what you think is happening right now.

I really,

really

don't like the fact that BBT says he's doing stuff and then gives us no information whatsoever. If you're town, you need to be as open with your reads as possible rather than sitting back and picking at each other and trying to just poke holes in arguments. Having a steady flow of contribution is exactly what town needs right now, not...Whatever this back-and-forth is supposed to be.

I could almost say the exact same thing for Moratorium right now. You're being intentionally obtuse and giving the town nothing to work with. How are we supposed to solve the game if you don't talk to us? We can't figure out your alignment if you say nothing.

Both of you are being scummy right now. If you're town, you need to stop that shit and actually keep discussion going rather than posting one-liners that ultimately accomplish nothing.

What stuff have I said I am doing?

I have probably been the most active person in this thread, questioning various people and not afraid to say if I feel something is scummy or not, even at this early stage. I'm not sure how much more open you want me to be?

The only thing I have held back is my early reads and I gave my reasons for this.

Have I not been providing a steady flow of contribution? Have I not tried to encourage various people to post to gain information?

It's not

entirely

based on the supposed fact that you're not contributing.

You said you had reads, and then

purposefully did not give us those reads.

There's no need to withhold that kind of information if you're town, especially in an inactive game such as this one. Worst case scenario is that you're wrong, and we move on from there.

[Shinobi]

OK, so because I was honest, that makes me scummy? I'm not sure how you have come to that conclusion.

I gave my reasons for not wanting to post reads. I have gave an opinion/some thoughts on quite a few players, 3 or maybe 4 as a guess, which everybody has been able to read and read the responses to my posts as well.

Do you have any reads/thoughts that you would like to share on any of the players?

Again, this is not the issue. I want you to provide the reads that you said you had. I don't really care if you "don't want to." Do it. If you're town, you lose nothing by providing us with information. We've made several posts and, for some reason, we are still no closer to getting the information you keep saying you have.

This is the kind of scummy shit I was accusing Mora of doing. You're being obtuse for no reason whatsoever. If you say you have reads, then give them. If you don't have reads, say you don't have reads and ask questions and try to figure things out.

(Though if it helps, I actually have a townread on you. Don't be afraid to be wrong.)

[Shinobi]

If I was scum, I would lose nothing by posting reads either. That line of argument doesn't make sense.

You have a townread on me...how have you come to that conclusion may I ask?

It does. It actually matters quite a bit, and I'm going to explain why.

The traits you have been exhibiting so far (inquisitiveness, openness with information, concern with the lack of activity) are extremely pro-town traits. The issue is that, all of a sudden:

Yeah, I have a few early reads but I am unwilling to share at the moment

You clam up for no reason whatsoever. The mafia has a huge incentive to lurk right now, what with the abysmal amount of activity in the thread. Therefore, if you look active but ultimately accomplish nothing (which is entirely possible at this point, considering that you don't want to give us information) it concerns me. Looking active and accomplishing nothing is scummy, and keeping town in the dark is scum's job.

This is why I'm pressuring you so hard for reads. There's literally no reason in the world you wouldn't give them at this point, because we have next to no information to work with as it stands.

Give us your reads and stop being obtuse. This should not take an entire page to extract from you.

[Shinobi]

I'd also like to point out that, at this point, you have put more effort into giving us nothing rather than actually giving reads.

This is a problem.

[Shinobi]

Alright, now we're getting somewhere.

What exactly made you think I was town? You say a couple posts back, but I want to know which ones made you think I was town and what your reasoning is behind that.

Is there anything behind "gut-feeling" reads? Did you like a specific post they made or the way they approached the game? Or did you just kinda wing it and guess that they were town?

(Though your read on MM is a little...odd. You say it's a gut read and then provide reasoning as to why he's scummy [which he is], which is the exact opposite of a gut read. Lol.)

[Shinobi]

Actually, I disagree. If you try to put in words what triggered your gut it can be a gut feel put into words ~

Why did you post this?

it is good that BlueBloodedToffee decided to jump to conclusions because other wise we really wouldn't get anywhere.

Giving this game a start is good.

However, BlueBloodedToffee seems like he is giving accusations out readily however no one seems to be accusing him... a bit scummy?

Why is it that jumping to conclusions is the only way to get anywhere? Furthermore, where is BBT jumping to conclusions? And why is him accusing people of being scum scummy in this circumstance? What would your proposed alternative be?

[Shinobi]

Yes, Mala. I'm aware of what you said. What I want to go over is why you felt the need to post something like that. BBT gave a summary of what he thought in the game and all you did was comment on how I could be misreading a gut read.

Mora, what exactly would you have BBT doing right now if he were town? Would you prefer he go out and ignore the lurkers in favor of only focusing on people that post? Should the lurkers get a free pass?

Also, Mafia Moderator, you need to talk more. Telling us that you aren't mafia and then proceeding to do nothing is probably the fastest way to get lynched. Comment on something. Tell us who you think is scummy and why. Contribute information.

[Shinobi]

I'm not mafia

I'll need a bit of convincing.
If you're not, who do you think is and why?

Unfortunately I'm reading town on everybody who is contributing - I suspect more a fault with my reads than any real belief that the lurkers are scum.

If we mislynch on a lurker is that such a terrible thing?
[runs for cover]

VOTE: Mafia Moderator

Why are you so sure that lynching MM would result in a mislynch?

[Shinobi]

Shinobi, what's your read on Mora?

For the moment, leaning town.

I'm trying to read into the interactions between BBT and Mora for more information. I'm thinking there has to be something there.

[Shinobi]

Also Mora:

If you don't like it then just don't react to it or even better do one up and ignore it. The fact you even put attention to it gives you more unwanted attention to it.

But, hey, You missed my point and it's not even all about you.

Newbies are holding me on a high scale and expecting me to act similar to a player who has far more experience than I do. I want them to learn not everyone plays the same way and that each player is different.

So yeah, I get annoyed at comments like "Omg, you're not playing like Thor or Nacho".

To be honest, I'm not actually sure why everyone is scumreading you off of that. I mostly just voted you because it would stir up discussion faster than anything else I could think of.

When you get the chance, I want you to give us your opinions on the BBT and Mora debacle.

[Shinobi]

Wow.

There was, like, no reason for you to claim there. Nobody was really gunning for you, just discussing a possible focus on your weird earlier posts. That was fixable.

Then there's the fact that we might not even have a doctor in this setup. That was...Not a good play.

[Shinobi]

UNVOTE: Mala

Gonna catch up, gotta shower first and hopefully I'll be able to post things of use.

[Shinobi]

You're reading the table incorrectly, and also stop worrying about it. What's done is done.

Moving on, Moratorium, could you elaborate on why you find BBT so scummy? I want you to collect your thoughts and make a case on what you're seeing right now.

[Shinobi]

Not voting anymore, mod.

>.>

[Shinobi]

You're reading the table incorrectly, and also stop worrying about it. What's done is done.

Moving on, Moratorium, could you elaborate on why you find BBT so scummy? I want you to collect your thoughts and make a case on what you're seeing right now.

So you want an elaboration on the person I've posted a pbpa on (#125), but you don't want nor even seem interested in what I have to say about the guy who is L-2, the guy whose hammer I started, the guy whose had my vote since page.... 2?

/iso Shinobi

...and you've interacted with Xayzeck in this game a grand total of 1 time, when I asked you your opinion of his playstyle in a previous game (#27)?

You have my case on BBT, read the PbPA. Others have added to it (see Malakittens). Tell me your thoughts regarding Xayzeck.

To be honest, I keep forgetting that Xayzeck exists. I'm not entirely sure if it's because that's just the way he plays or if it's because he's mafia and he's trying to stay out of sight. Even when I was posting reads during my last game with him I forgot him completely. If we lynch Xayzeck, I think I'd be 100% alright with it. I want more information in the thread first though.

Also, I just wanted to make sure that that was all you said/wanted to say about BBT. I'm a little busy right now, but I want to take a look at what you said and say some things because a lot of what you were saying about him bugged me. I'll post my thoughts on your case later.

[Shinobi]

I've been around, I've just been lurking and not posting much because I just don't see what I can add at this point.

All I want to say is that I'm incredibly unwilling to lynch BBT. I still think he's one of the townier players in the thread, so if we had to lynch between Wolfy and BBT, I'd pick Wolfy.

[Shinobi]

We don't have to lynch between Wolfy and BBT, Mr. False Dilemma.

Is Xayzeck Voldamort in your world? Are you not permitted to speak of him?

I already told you what I thought of Xayzeck. I keep forgetting that he exists, and I'm not sure if it's his playstyle or because he's scum avoiding the limelight. I played with him last game and he was scum, but he has the same feel of not sticking out in his posts and I'm not sure if it's because that's how he plays or if because he rolled mafia again.

[Shinobi]

I already told you what I thought of Xayzeck. I keep forgetting that he exists, and I'm not sure if it's his playstyle or because he's scum avoiding the limelight. I played with him last game and he was scum, but he has the same feel of not sticking out in his posts and I'm not sure if it's because that's how he plays or if because he rolled mafia again.

everyone else remembers me just fine though

And I have absolutely no idea why this is.

I just looked through your filter, and you've done precisely fuck all this game. You haven't had any reads, and the majority of your posts are questions or speculation on setup. I've played with you, and I know you like to use proper punctuation and spelling and whatnot, but you don't seem to be doing any of that there.

Now, bear with me, but when I see someone typing incorrectly, I generally want to ignore them because I think less of them. Call me an elitist or whatever, but I think it's possible that mafia could type incorrectly intentionally to have people gloss over their posts, which is what I felt like I was doing. With the majority of the newbies talking and contributing (and one of them being a cop) it feels like you could be doing more.

This is very important. Give us your list of reads, and tell us who you think is scum.

[Shinobi]

Personally, I beg to differ with BBT. Also your previous posts made me think you were scum reading him
shin only because you couldn't get him to get his reads out.

Ill be amazed at this point if both wolfy and BBT are town. I'm 90% sure at least one is scum.

Mora is town for latest posts. I don't see how people are scum reading him.

Anyways lunch is over so not much analyitiz because I don't have te time til I'm home. And even then I'm tired as hell atm so I might not be around that often

I said I had a townread on him a while ago, and I gave the reasoning in #91.

but I think it's possible that mafia could type incorrectly intentionally to have people gloss over their posts

That's a first for me. "I think you are scum because typos."

That's...Simplifying things too much. I think he's scum because he doesn't stand out in any of his posts. A majority of what he has said so far consists of poorly written one-liners, along with meaningless posts about setup. Those "typos" just reinforce the fact that he doesn't want to stand out, especially considering the fact that I've seen him play before with correct punctuation. He's capable of putting effort into what he's saying, but I don't feel like that's the case here.

[Shinobi]

Also, I just wanted to make sure that that was all you said/wanted to say about BBT. I'm a little busy right now, but I want to take a look at what you said and say some things because a lot of what you were saying about him bugged me. I'll post my thoughts on your case later.

Can you continue with this please. I was, and still am, awaiting your thoughts.

Oh shit, I forgot about that.

Will do, give me a minute.

[Shinobi]

Here I was looking forward to a lazy Sunday morning... Here's your PbPA FMPOV.

#48, #50, #55, #57, #59, #75, #79, #96, #100, #112, #116, #124 are all posts where you discuss player activity. It's laughable to say you don't want this topic to be at the forefront of everyone's minds. Allows for easy "scumhunting", in my view.

I actually agree with this, but it's clear that he isn't just focusing on inactivity in the thread. I think this part of your case was made during a part of the game when almost half the game was still lurking and before he was interacting with everyone else. (Granted, there are still plenty of lurkers, but almost everyone has had some impact on the thread, however small.)

Looking through his filter, it feels like you're stretching to look for reasons to find him scummy. I simply don't see it at all. He puts emphasis on inactivity, but this game was plagued by it in the early stages.

I know you're trying to say that he's trying to look good, but aside from his agenda of pushing a more active thread, how exactly is he scum for doing this?

#63: "I can't pinpoint why, but I dislike everything about this post."
- I hate posts like this. Be specific. This is a "I'm with you guys" post.

It's a newbie game, and the theme is gut reads because everyone follows the IC. Are you going to shit on everyone that has gut reads? Are you going to push Mala because she loves to think with her gut? There are several players here with gut reads, but you only seemed to be focused on one person for doing so. Why?

#82: "you appear to be gathering evidence from everybody else"
- It's the main theme of the game. You paint it as a fault.

You took this out of context. The complete statement, if I'm remembering correctly, is that he had an issue with you not giving reads and just commenting on what other people were saying. You gave reads on only four players thus far, and a lot of your filter is one-liners poking holes in things rather than actual reads. Your reads at this point, as a whole, would be nice.

#86: "I have probably been the most active person in this thread"
- Pretend you are town for a second. Do you really think this is something a townie needs to say? Or do you think it is something scum feels the need to point out?

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. People are egotistical, and will take credit for the things that they do, town or scum. What reason

specifically

can you find for him being scum for taking credit for pushing activity?

#90: "You have a townread on me...how have you come to that conclusion may I ask?"
- Again, is this the kind of question a townie asks?

That depends. Am I supposed to have reads without explaining how I got them? He's asking for information, and you somehow have an issue with this. I fail to see the problem here.

you have fabricated the link between talking about lurkers and lynching lurkers from thin air with no evidence to back up your claim.

I'll admit, you have not posted the words "I am scum and wish to make easy lynches" anywhere in this game whatsoever. I'm very impressed.

I'm actually completely lost as to when and where he made any statement regarding this, and I don't know what you're trying to say here. In fact, just looking through BBT's filter gives me the vibe that this is actually the exact opposite to what you were trying to say here...I think. The entire concept of him trying to push to lynch lurkers rather than trying to get information from them seems contrived, and diving through his filter makes me believe that you were wrong about this.

Man, that took a stupid amount of filter diving. Remind me never to make a post like that again. Cripes.

[Shinobi]

Is it at all possible that Xayzeck and thatguy2 are a team?

Thatguy2's posts reek of fear, like he's afraid to do anything at all.

[Shinobi]

I actually went and asked myself, "what is the scummiest thing I could say at this moment?" That's what I came up with.

If you want a real answer, I just skimmed everything and went "OK, let's stop talking about setup now." There were other things to focus on than the cop claim.

[Shinobi]

Come on, guys. Somebody needs to step up and start acting townie or I'm gonna have to put all your names on a dart board.

We need to start consolidating votes here. Deadline approaches. Replacements aren't forthcoming... hell the mod is prod-worthy at the moment.

I agree with this. We have 4 or 5 days left now and we're not really close to any sort of decision. Let's try to consolidate some votes and see what we can get going.

I am happy to lynch Hashtag, Mala or thatguy2. I really don't think inactives floating their way through the game is very helpful for town at all, it's also unlikely that scum will kill them because they are of no threat.

If we don't want to lynch a lurker, then my active player vote goes for Mala for all previous reasons stated. Add in her quite obvious lie regarding the set-up and I'm happy with this lynch.

Also, I'm not so sure what makes you more townie than anybody else Mora...

Take a step back for a minute.

Let's assume that Mala lied about the setup. (I'm not even sure if this is true, but it's irrelevant either way. I really don't feel like filter diving right now.) If Mala lied about the setup,

and

she was mafia, what exactly would that accomplish? Furthermore, if she were town, why would she lie about the setup in the first place?

[Shinobi]

BBT I already gave you my reasoning on why I said that.

Also...Did the mod leave or something?

[Shinobi]

I'm usually against lynching lurkers, and wait for the mod to replace them.

But since they haven't been replaced yet, and the day's ending, I don't particularly care who we lynch.

I lean thatguy tho

I agree.

BBT, post #354 was really good and I planned on replying to it, but I got caught up playing EpicMafia instead. Fakeedit: The mod posted before I made my post, making everything I was about to say irrelevant.

Wait for the new guys to show up before we murder them. The mod is still here so that'll probably happen.

[Shinobi]

MM is town, Wolfy is town.
thatguy47 and HashtagSELFIE need to be replaced.
Xayzeck is scum.
Shinobi, BBT and Malakittens are tossups.

No one wants to join the Xayzeck wagon.
No one wants to really say why either.
Now he's wanting to lynch lurkers.

The issue isn't that Xayzeck wants to lynch lurkers. The issue is that a huge majority of the players in this game aren't doing anything while everyone else talks in circles. BBT already went over it in his post.

Also, do me a favor and explain your Wolfy read. You've already mentioned that BBT and Wolfy are all over the place, but BBT is far and away townier than Wolfy is from my point of view.

[Shinobi]

It's actually important that you answer this soonish, because I'm going to post a case on Wolfy as soon as you explain.

Wolfy is scum, btw.

[Shinobi]

Fuck it, I don't want to wait anymore. Here's my case on Wolfy:

The idea of looking between BBT and Wolfy came to me when Mala started saying stuff like she did in #214. Wolfy and BBT both have similar reads, whereas BBT has thrusted himself into the spotlight and has tried to solve the game on his own. Mala actually went and posted this:

BBT: Previous stated similar reads between Wolfy & BBT. Most likely inexperienced scum between the two trying to blend in. 92 seems more like freaked out scum being questioned.

I beg to differ.

Wolfy

is clearly the player we should be looking to vote off today. I think it's relatively clear that we have no need to vote off BBT today, as he has displayed a prominent number of town qualities such as real contribution, a lack of hesitation, and a sense of openness about all of his posts.

In contrast, almost every single one of Wolfy's posts are geared almost exclusively towards fitting in. I'd actually provide quotes, but a brief glance through his ISO shows a hugely consistent tone throughout his posts this game that anyone with eyes could see. (For the sake of simplicity, posts 8, 36,

60

,

62

, and 236 are the targets of interest.) His entire filter seems geared towards fitting in and painting himself as a noob. Think about this idea from a town perspective. Why would you want to point out that you're a newbie in almost all of your posts? If anything, this will get you ignored by the other players and your cases/ideas won't have any impact.

But from a mafia perspective, his filter makes that much more sense. Wolfy wasn't even particularly suspicious at the beginning of the day, but by making himself out as a "noob," he is, in practice, trying to make himself appear

less

suspicious. That's almost entirely mafia rationale. A town player has no reason to act like this.

As for his other posts, I have a huge problem with post #365:

I agree - let's wait for replacements...

but if thatguy2 prod dodges again without posting content...

What exactly is he trying to say here? What is this post trying to accomplish? Think about this for a second, because this is actually the one post that really put me over the edge and made me want to commit to voting him.

This post is him trying to manipulate the vote onto thatguy2.

He

knows

that thatguy2 can't defend himself, and thanks to BBT's post on lurkers and the town's growing displeasure with the amount of inactivity in the thread, he knows that thatguy2 is an easy lynch for today and a free ride to day 2 if he doesn't get replaced due to prod dodging. The post indicates that he wants thatguy2 to get lynched,

without the commitment of a vote or attempting to hold himself responsible for thatguy2 flipping town.

Keep in mind that this isn't the first time that Wolfy has done this, as noted in post #104:

I'll need a bit of convincing.
If you're not, who do you think is and why?

Unfortunately I'm reading town on everybody who is contributing - I suspect more a fault with my reads than any real belief that the lurkers are scum.

If we mislynch on a lurker is that such a terrible thing?
[runs for cover]

VOTE: Mafia Moderator

There's an incredibly important line in this post that indicates his alignment and his mindset concerning the game. Here, I'll highlight it again:

If we mislynch on a lurker is that such a terrible thing?

[runs for cover]

This line indicates that his whole mindset is to stay out of the spotlight and to hide. On its own, it's not a particularly useful piece of evidence; when seen with the rest of my case, it is particularly damning, and reinforces the notion that he's trying to save himself rather than solve the game.

VOTE: Wolfy

[Shinobi]

I've played the game a few times with family/friends in real life.

This is my second forum game... first one was last week and rather short...

Don't understand the huntsman/ruby reference - I come from a civilised country

Are we still in RVS?
How do I tell?
How do we get out?

My only other game we didn't get out of RVS (accidental RVS lynch on page 2) and I died night 1 so I have no experience of this.

Question for the IC and SEs...

If the IC in a Newbie game is a bit on the quiet side, is that usually an indication that they're scum?

VOTE: Malakittens

Were you unlucky with your role this time?
Hope you get your favourite next time.

This is called rolefishing, and a rather egregious example of it.

No, it's called having a bit of fun
(nice word egregious - I can choose to take a positive meaning of it)

FoS: Wolfy

Nice! I now feel really encouraged to participate on this site, ask my own questions and offer my own opinions.
If I'm doing this wrong, help me, teach me

- don't insult me.

How interested are you in knowing whether I'm vanilla?

Was very interested. I engaged with you to get responses so I could make my mind up.

It's not an insult. Unless there's some weird British meaning for FoS that I'm not aware of.

Ah! Maybe weird, not exclusively British. On other sites (not mafia) I've been on it stands for Full of Shit.
I apologise for accusing you of insulting me - I shall try harder in future to assume the best rather than jump to the wrong conclusion.

2) Rolefishing is anti-town, as scum is attempting to expose power roles to be night-killed and increase their chances of winning. Asking people to claim or reveal, particularly on Day 1, is generally seen as helpful to scum, and therefore frowned upon.

Thank you for the lesson. I can see how that would work. I will bear that in mind in future.

I'm not sure how to categorize your reaction yet.

Put it in the dumb newbie category.

I'm not mafia

I'll need a bit of convincing.
If you're not, who do you think is and why?

Unfortunately I'm reading town on everybody who is contributing - I suspect more a fault with my reads than any real belief that the lurkers are scum.

If we mislynch on a lurker is that such a terrible thing?

[runs for cover]

VOTE: Mafia Moderator

I agree - let's wait for replacements...

but if thatguy2 prod dodges again without posting content...

I just went through and quoted/bolded all the most important red flags in Wolfy's filter, in case somebody is actually too lazy to filter dive.

[Shinobi]

I actually missed a bold in post #62.

Put it in the dumb newbie category.

[Shinobi]

Also, do me a favor and explain your Wolfy read. You've already mentioned that BBT and Wolfy are all over the place, but BBT is far and away townier than Wolfy is from my point of view.

Could both be town. False Dilemma Strike Two.

What is with you and this false dilemma shit? I'm only saying this because that's what made me think there was a scum between them, and I thought it was Wolfy. I've said multiple times that I don't want to lynch BBT but everyone keeps putting it out there that I want to lynch both of them.

Some long Mala-sheeping crap

Look, I get it, you play EM, where anyone who types more than 4 words at a time at a 3rd grade level is considered town confirmed.

It pretty much is that isn't it?

Maybe scum don't get a Preview button?

That's it for me, he's town.

I thought this was dumb, but apparently that's just me. If half the town thinks I'm wrong then I'm probably wrong. (Though for the record there were only three votes on Wolfy.)

UNVOTE: Wolfy
VOTE: Mala

Hopefully I'll see you all day 2.

[Shinobi]

Yeah, if one of you could state intent to hammer before actually hammering that would be great.

[Shinobi]

That's it? That's all it took and you're done with Wolfy? That post probably took you a hell of a lot of effort to put together, scrounging up quotes and such, and you're willing to just throw it away on the basis of me saying booga booga me no likey?

Unvote

I need to think.

I'm not done with Wolfy. He isn't going to die tonight because he's either scum or a mislynch waiting to happen. The issue is that I felt really good about it when I made it and I think I psyched myself out after I posted it and I got such poor responses. Besides, it's not like my case is going to disappear if I die or something.

UNVOTE: Mala

Answer BBT's question please.

[Shinobi]

I'm being scummy as shit and no one cares to vote for me. Makes no sense. It's making me feel rather good about where my vote is now, I guess.

Mala stays away from Wolfy because now it's been called out, and votes the incoming replacement based on... what... "I do not have meta for scum"... Ok.

Shinobi rushed a voteswitch based on... who knows... seemed pretty damned convinced of himself 24 hours ago, little nudge and he's off like he touched a hot stove.

Where I'd truly like the votes to go is Shinobi, but no other townies are convinced based on everyone's declared reads and lack of votes.

I think Shinobi is not sure whether to go through with bussing his partner

, and Mala having no reads this far into Day 1 and reverting to meta, one-sided meta mind-you, is terminally suspect.

I was actually planning on arguing with you, but then I went and reread the bold.

I'm totally down to vote off Wolfy. I still am. I just said that, like, a post ago. You think Wolfy is scum? Cool, then vote with me. The only reason I dropped it for the moment is because I thought what you and BBT said had merit, but fuck it. I don't trust what you're saying because you're not even trying to apply logic to what I'm saying.

I don't give a shit about your association read because it's dumb and it makes no sense. There's no reason for me to flip the vote onto Wolfy if we were both scum with Mala so close to L-1 and thread sentiment against her. (Why are we scumreading her again? For...bad reads? I guess? I'm still not entirely sure.) And if I'm just plain wrong and Wolfy flips town, your case completely falls apart.

All I know now is that you're not someone I want to sheep, for any reason. Vote with me or go away.

VOTE: Wolfy

[Shinobi]

I don't give a shit about your association read because it's dumb and it makes no sense. There's no reason for me to flip the vote onto Wolfy if we were both scum with Mala so close to L-1 and thread sentiment against her.

You think I think you are bussing Wolfy? I think you just considered bussing Mala, not Wolfy.

And if I'm just plain wrong and Wolfy flips town, your case completely falls apart.

Wolfy is town, you are strange.

Oh.

UNVOTE: Wolfy

Stop that.

[Shinobi]

Also, Whats with the voting and unvoting? Can you go through with me your thought processes? Its not just once you did that
----------
Hmmm i think i gotta iso mala.

My issue is that everyone seemed determined to read Wolfy as town. Obviously if more than one person is doing it then that's several town players reading him as town. I just started to look at it and realize that I might just be wrong, rather than trying to cram my case down everyone's throat.

And then I thought Mora was calling him my partner, and that was a whole 'nother can of worms.

If Wolfy is town, then the only people I'd probably vote off today are Xayzeck and Mala, unless I'm forgetting someone.

[Shinobi]

Can you explain your scumread on Xayzeck?

Just saying he's scum at this point when we have nothing to read you with is troubling.

[Shinobi]

Can you explain your scumread on Xayzeck?

Just saying he's scum at this point when we have nothing to read you with is troubling.

....

Why didn't Enomis' post

similar

to this did not bother you then...?

Here are some reasons:
1) Enomis is a player that you have played with. He is a nonentity to me, whereas you already know his modus operandi.
2) Jcozmo is a replacement with no prior game experience. He replaced someone that did nothing but straight up parrot what another player (the cop) was saying, which was a rather bland list of reads anyway.
3) You beat me to it.

Though the one thing I would like to point out is that his response is kind of shitty. I don't really like the way he writes this giant post that boils down to "lol u suk ur wrong." His townread on Wolfy is alright...I guess? I still think it's kind of a stretch, but if multiple people are saying it then I might just be wrong about Wolfy.

Well I think that's two separate issues.

1. I was asked a question and answered it. You are asking a different question so I'll answer that as well. IMO He hasn't taken a line in this game that furthers the townie agenda, and that seems clearer to me than with others who have muddied the waters more. Several other people here have had or still seem to be of that same opinion (scum) yet no one has really voted that way and I'm really not sure why. After posting my first impression I went over some iso's and that point seems more pronounced. I feel like the lack of contribution by the replaced players has something to do with it.

Your other statement doesn't make much sense to me. Of course you know nothing about me, that's the whole reason I'm even in this game currently, I'm not sure why my having an opinion when I had 430 posts-worth of material to work with would be troubling.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but your whole scumread basically boils down to "he hasn't been contributing?" Why is it that not contributing makes him scum in this circumstance? If people contribute, are they automatically town?

The fact that you only have one scumread based off of someone "not contributing" is somewhat odd. Contributions are not an inherently townie trait; scum can push town players under the guise of "being town." They have voices as well. If scum players contribute to mislynches, how would you go about finding them?

Here's another question: who do you currently townread? What is the reasoning behind that?

[Shinobi]

Hi.

So Mala lied about her meta and that's really, really bad. I really want to vote her off now, but I just have one more question for Mora.

Why exactly are you scumreading me for not following through with voting off your townread? Could you explain that to me, like, five billion more times?

(If you can answer this well I'm going to go back and put Mala at L-1.)

[Shinobi]

Yeah, but maybe you would think something like this:

You had a wierd, disproportional response to my suspicions of your

"case"

on Wolfy.

Might have something to do with it.

I also find your conditional voting amusing and unnecessary, this shouldn't be you dangling some kind of reward, you should be voting on the basis of your own convictions.

Yeah, but the game is less fun that way.

VOTE: Mala

[Shinobi]

UNVOTE: Mala

Actually, I'm going to rethink this for a little bit.

Mora, why would Mala lie about her meta?

[Shinobi]

Who knows. It's certainly not the sole basis on which you should vote. It may not even be alignment-relevant.

It is, however, worth noting. On average, in my experience, scum's answer to conflict is to lie, and town's answer to conflict is to explain.

I might be overthinking this lynch really hard. I don't understand why scum would lie with their back to the wall when I'm already defending them. The concept doesn't make much sense, especially when I feel like I could swing this lynch on my own if I really, really wanted to. (I stand by the fact that I still think I could have done it when I pushed Wolfy, even if some players might not have agreed with it.)

The whole concept of even lying when her neck is on the line is just...Strange. Give me a couple hours to consolidate my thoughts. I'm going to reread ISOs and see if I can piece things together.

Fakeedit: Mala actually said a thing that I should take note of. I'm going to do my own research for a little bit.

[Shinobi]

VOTE: Mala

UNVOTE: Mala

Actually, I'm going to rethink this for a little bit.

Shinobi setting off every alarm in the station.

I was about to post this anyways, after re-reading the last time he put Mala at L-1, but then I come back to the present and see another dance step.

Don't even know how to process that yet.

This. What are you doing Shinobi? You seem to lack any sort of conviction. You vote and unvote within 20 mins of each other, you realize how bad this is gonna look if Mala flips scum right? You post a case on Wolfy, a case you put a lot of effort into I imagine, and get blown off it straight away from a few comments. Now, you can't even commit to a vote on Mala. The voting and unvoting is strange indeed.

We have 3 days left. 3 days... Mala has 3 votes and 2 people are not voting. Shinobi can't commit and Xayzeck doesn't want to place his vote on her either.

I think we're looking at a very serious possibility of a no lynch on D1 unless we sort ourselves out.

Before, I respond to anything else in this post, I'm just going to come out and say it:

We are lynching on day 1. That is going to happen. I'll strongarm a lynch if I have to, I'm just not entirely convinced that Mala is scum yet. The lying thing is suspicious (if she is actually lying, which I haven't even determined myself), but if she actually is mafia, then she would have no reason to lie with her back to the wall with me defending her the way I am.

And then there's the fact that I still need to go reread all the meta stuff that these two have been posting to see if I can find any discrepancies in what has been going on, and you can see why I'm a little hesitant to finalize my vote. If we don't have a focus target on the 26th, then I'm just gonna vote Mala because fuck it we need to lynch.

Furthermore, I'm going to move my vote around a lot. That's going to happen and you're going to have to accept it. I'm going to vote the people I think are scum at the end of the day, and I'm not particularly convinced on anyone as of right now. What, you want me to just tunnel every single player I get a slight scumread on? Because that's what you're essentially telling me to do.

I'll be back later, hopefully with findings and more opinions.

[Shinobi]

@Mala:
You seem completely active this game as scum. A most recently completed game. Like today.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=38067

I am hard pressed to find out the games where you got lynched, town/scum. I just seem to see you keep getting NKed or endgamed. Only found one game where you were town when you got lynched. I am lazy to search anymore so....

Oh for fuck's sake.

Mala, why the hell did you do that?

Vote Count Analysis

We get it. I flip-flopped a lot on this lynch. You didn't need a graph to tell us. I'm still not convinced that Mala is scum, but her last statement is going to lead to her getting lynched no matter what.

MM, do me a favor and check me so I don't get lynched tomorrow if she flips scum.

[Shinobi]

Mala just towntold. Not near a computer right now but this lynch is wrong.

Will explain when I get the chance.

[Shinobi]

So here's what I think of the Mala lynch:

I stand by the fact that the initial reasons for scumreading her are bad. You can talk about meta all you want, but that doesn't really cover the fact that lying in this situation is null to the point of being silly. Was I defending her when she supposedly "lied?" I think other players are picking at that logic way harder than needed. The bottom line is that if Mala dies at any point and flips scum, I'm going to be in a shitload of trouble because "hesitating" or "defending" or however you want to talk about it. I, however, just don't see her flipping scum at this point.

First, let's take a look at her defense. She already tried to defend herself using meta, which has been picked apart because she lied. Let's assume for a second that she did. Why does lying make her scum in this case? More importantly, why would she lie about

meta

of all things? Meta is such an unbelievably hard thing to lie about, especially when anyone doing the research could disprove it if they really wanted to.

Just lynch me. Wicked helped me gain confident that I'm not gonna be totally fucked by meta when I'm scum. I'm done being lynched every single time as either alignment. Wicked was my stepping stone. My scum play went south when I rolled scum 8-9 times in a row with two town games in between. I created evil regals because I needed a break from everyone knowing my meta and I wanted a fresh start.

My lynch is inevitable right now. If its not now it will be in the future. I'm a distraction; town thinks I'm scummy; scum sees me as a easy lynch.

I derp'd. I forgot the setup, I didn't have astounding reads.

So lynch me. I'm at L-1 and I'm a VT.

Reads as follows:

Town:

Mm
Eco (that guy)
Shin

Null-Leaning town:

Mora

Null-leaning scum:

Xayz

Scum:

{BBT/Wolfy}
Enomis

We're going to ignore all the AtE, because it's useless. Martyrs, as a general rule, are usually town because town players don't have the same kind of attachment to their games as scum players do. Scum martyrs most certainly don't sit here giving us reads all the way to the end. The concept of giving her reads when facing the bullets is such a pro-town move that I want to call this one of the towniest posts in the game for that exact reason. Scum's job when getting lynched is to deny information. Mala is most certainly not denying information.

Even assuming that she lied, there's simply no way for us to sit here and say "yeah she's 100% scum" because of it. Lying could be a townslip, or a scumslip, and you have absolutely no way of knowing what the difference is. But that point is mostly irrelevant, because Mala wouldn't sit here and give us information regarding her reads if she were scum in the first place.

If I really wanted to lynch someone, it would be enomis:

Also guys wicked just ended last night. My posts yesterday about meta were during the day. I won't a) talk about ongoing games b) comprise the game by saying 'oh yeah btw I have recently destroyed my scum meta by manipulating a game!' When it's not finished.

I worked my ass off in wicked to get where I was there and wasn't jereopadizing it here even though I was self meta'ing.

Ermm, No look here. Shouldn't your thoughts be:" Oh no, i am being being accused to being scum. Lets use my meta of me being inactive as scum as a defense. But i have an ongoing game where i am scum and i am active. Therefore I should not

LIE

to town here by using my meta as my defense since that is going to be not true. I should prolly use some other method."

The above is maybe what town mala would have thought?

I am satisfied with my vote.

Someone hammer please.

This post

reeks

of storyline lynch. Lying isn't a great move, by any circumstance, but enomis is using lying as his main reason for pushing this lynch. I've already stated that lying is null at best, but for a player like enomis who has been here for 2 years, it sounds like a copout.

And then there's the fact that he admits that she might be town, and then asks someone to hammer anyway. Because...That's why you lynch people, I guess? Because you think they could be town? It's a shit reason for lynching someone, and I don't like it.

VOTE: enomis

I...think I covered everything regarding the way that I feel right now.

[Shinobi]

What is a policy Lynch?

Lynching someone because you don't like the way they're playing rather than because you think they're scum. Policy lynches are generally terrible.

@Xayzeck:

Hey bro. If you are not seeing the mala thing. Question your upmost scumread or do something? Or even if you feel that she's town, ACTUALLY defend her?

So you needed a computer to type, No, i don't see mala as scum. She seems like town flailing.

Really, you needed a computer to do that?

Tsk tsk tsk. I really feel like switching my vote back to you.

Back to the topic at hand, this is another post I really don't like that I missed the first time around. He keeps promoting lynches because of...What reasons, exactly? Xayzeck making a short statement on a computer

is not a reason to lynch him.

I really don't like enomis. I would prefer he get lynched today.

[Shinobi]

Xayzeck if you really want to get enomis lynched at this point you should probably make a case or something.

Just sayin'.

[Shinobi]

Why Mala over Xayzeck?

Because she's the Wolfy/BBT false dilemma originator (#214)
Because "We can either have a doc or a BP." after a cop claim seems like a scumslip.
Because no reads, no scumhunting all day.
Because wifom arguments and "woe is me I'm terrible Day 1" instead of, you know, participation.
Because now, here, at the cusp of death, suddenly scumhunting, on a target with barely any posts, for bad reasons.

Shinobi and BBT, give me your views on this list.

A quick glance over her ISO shows that she was scumhunting and providing reads. Maybe my idea of scumhunting is different from yours? Could you elaborate on what this "not-scumhunting" actually is? Because she looks like she's scumhunting to me.

And also, I'm lost on what this scumslip actually is. Can you explain?

Mala just towntold. Not near a computer right now but this lynch is wrong.

Will explain when I get the chance.

Your explanation states she nulltold. Which is it?

Towntold. Martyrs are generally town, especially when facing execution by providing as much information as possible. Lying is null, if she even did that.

[Shinobi]

Why Mala over Xayzeck?

Because she's the Wolfy/BBT false dilemma originator (#214)
Because "We can either have a doc or a BP." after a cop claim seems like a scumslip.
Because no reads, no scumhunting all day.
Because wifom arguments and "woe is me I'm terrible Day 1" instead of, you know, participation.
Because now, here, at the cusp of death, suddenly scumhunting, on a target with barely any posts, for bad reasons.

Shinobi and BBT, give me your views on this list.

A quick glance over her ISO shows that she was scumhunting and providing reads. Maybe my idea of scumhunting is different from yours? Could you elaborate on what this "not-scumhunting" actually is? Because she looks like she's scumhunting to me.

And also, I'm lost on what this scumslip actually is. Can you explain?

No.

What's your opinion of points #1 and #4 in that list? Please do this in the context of trying to convince me to join a wagon, you obtuse jackaninny.

I still don't get the whole "false dilemma" thing. False dilemma was me saying that if we had to lynch either BBT or Wolfy, and I'm pretty sure that was my idea. She said that she thinks there a scum between them and I agreed because I thought Wolfy was scum.

And her ISO shows that she's scumhunting. "Not-scumhunting" is such a roundabout generic thing to say about someone's filter, but I don't see that being consistent with her posts, and I most certainly don't see it being consistent with just scumhunting when she's near death.

And that doesn't erase the fact that enomis is also scumreading people for bad reasons and ignoring what people are saying. By the logic you're using to vote Mala, you could easily turn around and vote enomis off. A wifom response to a wifom argument doesn't make the initial wifom good or logical. Mala had one scumread (enomis) whereas enomis has 3, and all of them are pretty bad with the exception of

maybe

Mala, which I just don't see too well at this point.

Mala also really needs to post shit right now because I feel like I'm fighting the entire game on this lynch.

(Also BBT stop worrying about the no-lynch. I'm going to vote Mala if I have to, I just don't think that I particularly want to.)

also wtf is a jackaninny

@Shinobi:
The scumslip is valid in this scenario: because mala knew that there was a doc since she knows there's a roleblocker. Therefore, she thought the other possible way this setup could work with a cop is BP(because she didn't consider there may only be one PR on town) without checking the table. Therefore she typed out we could have doc or BP. Hence it is a scumslip.

But that is only true if the above situation happened. It may well be her explanation of her thinking it like her other game. It depends on how you view it.

Possible. I won't discount it.

[Shinobi]

@Shinobi:

I am ignoring people? When did i do that.
I am scumreading people for bad reasons? Those are legit reasons bro.

So in essence, you're scumreading me because i am scumreading people as to what you feel is a bad reason. Wow, what a Good reason you are scumreading me for.

Oh and you havent answered me,
Find me one town motivation as to why mala would lie as town. Go on.

So are you townreading mala or null reading mala now?

1) I already said I townread Mala, multiple times.
2) The issue isn't that it's purely scum-motivated. The issue is that town and scum both lie, but I see absolutely no reason Mala would lie intentionally about something as ubiquitous as meta. It was either a mistake, or misrepresented information.

@BBT: That is quite far fetched. You think if i am scum, my elaborate plan of pulling out the shinobi case is to have the town to no lynch?

I don't know what your plan is. You're a late comer, and I haven't had much chance to interact with you. I'm trying to get as much information as possible, I'm beginning to get confused with everything that is going on and it's becoming distracting.

I am still very happy with my Mala vote and I'm looking for information from her flip.

Do us all a favor and vote your partner.

[Shinobi]

Shinobi:

You are an expert on only answer part of my questions and ignore other parts.
Shall i give you the prize for being selective questions answerer?

And for your townread,
The only thing i see you are townreading her of is because of her reposting her reads even before she die.
Any other stuff?
Thats all the big post of yours stated.

Did i just hear you say:"The issue is town and scum both lie"?? and i told you to give me a town motivation in this case and you could give me none but say it was a mistake. A mistake to what? A mistake to lie?
-------------------------------------------------

@Jcozmo:
Ok. What number is she on your list.

Sure, I'll answer your ques-

...Wait a minute.

Post #565

@Shinobi:
Look so your whole big post = "Lying is null".

Give me a town motivated reason for why you just lied.

[Shinobi]

this shinobi-enomis "argument" just took a turn for the dumb

The point I'm trying to make here is that enomis' whole argument boils down to "lynch liars," which is most likely not an alignment indicative argument.

It's supposed to be dumb. Because that is exactly what it is.

[Shinobi]

Mora, please play more games with me after this omfg.

[Shinobi]

I keep refreshing this, expecting an answer.

Stupid Singapore.

[Shinobi]

I know, that's why it bugs me. That's an entire third of what we have left gone because he's in another timezone.

[Shinobi]

Hey guys.

Mora can do math.

[Shinobi]

To be fair, I wouldn't really know how to pull myself out of a lynch. Not because I don't want to, but I think we are so past the stage that at least three people want my head on a platter that it doesn't matter when they get it that I'll be an easy mislynch down the road.

Anyways~

Majority of the people scum reading me because I'm not producing reads. I'm producing reads, but they *are* mainly gut. Yes, after I was called out I decided to do a full re-read of the thread, I put my thoughts together in this post. Regardless, it gave myself a stepping stone to look back on it when needed.

I derp'd about the setup. Scum would have been more concerned with what setup they could potentially be in as their role PM's give information to them. Would scum carelessly make a mistake about the setup? (This is a serious question.)
More than 10 times out of 10 the FIRST thing that mafia discuss (if they discuss) anything in their QT during pregame is the information off their role PM's about the setup they are in.

I'm scumhunting, just not at everyone's expected pace. I play mainly by gut and it's effective in some cases in my opinion. Day 1 gives me the most information after a flip because you can go reread the thread in a different light and judge off reactions, etc.

So the cases on me boils down to:

Playstyle clashes (scum hunting paces, evolution of reads)

A careless mistake.

What careless mistake?

I'm trying to figure out why Shinobi stuck his neck out so far for Mala. I actually don't think its all that likely she flips scum. So thats what I'm currently trying to reconcile. Also trying to understand this new enomis wagon and who benefits and why.

I am also trying to get my head around why Shinobi defended Mala so strongly? That's not scum play to me.

You know what can be more important than trying to lynch scum? Not letting people lynch your townreads.

The Mala lynch makes absolutely no sense to me. When you really delve into what supposedly made her scum in the first place...None of the accusations were consistent with her posts. Yes, her style is

different

, but I don't really feel like anything she did at any point warranted a lynch.

And then when we really pressed her and threatened with a lynch, she gave up as much information as she could. That's a pro-town move in my eyes.

... but I'm not sure its 100% critical that you hit scum D1.

I think it's pretty important

in this game

that we hit scum D1 because scum know who the cop is.

If nothing else, just so we can squash this setup talk:

Some setups don't even have cops. The last game I was in had a tracker instead, and we probably wouldn't have needed it considering everyone was so intent on lynching Xayzeck after the second day started. (He was scum that game, lol.)

The cop kill would be interesting. MM isn't even particularly active, so you'd have to wonder if he'd have an impact on the game by idling through the night and not checking. There are also a huge number of town leaders in this game as well, so those are also enticing targets for mafia to hit.

But we really need to stop discussing setup. We're down to the last hours of the day and we need to lynch, and there's so much information out there right now that we can't clog it with this setup speculation.

[Shinobi]

To be fair, I wouldn't really know how to pull myself out of a lynch. Not because I don't want to, but I think we are so past the stage that at least three people want my head on a platter that it doesn't matter when they get it that I'll be an easy mislynch down the road.

Anyways~

Majority of the people scum reading me because I'm not producing reads. I'm producing reads, but they *are* mainly gut. Yes, after I was called out I decided to do a full re-read of the thread, I put my thoughts together in this post. Regardless, it gave myself a stepping stone to look back on it when needed.

I derp'd about the setup. Scum would have been more concerned with what setup they could potentially be in as their role PM's give information to them. Would scum carelessly make a mistake about the setup? (This is a serious question.)
More than 10 times out of 10 the FIRST thing that mafia discuss (if they discuss) anything in their QT during pregame is the information off their role PM's about the setup they are in.

I'm scumhunting, just not at everyone's expected pace. I play mainly by gut and it's effective in some cases in my opinion. Day 1 gives me the most information after a flip because you can go reread the thread in a different light and judge off reactions, etc.

So the cases on me boils down to:

Playstyle clashes (scum hunting paces, evolution of reads)

A careless mistake.

What careless mistake?

I'm trying to figure out why Shinobi stuck his neck out so far for Mala. I actually don't think its all that likely she flips scum. So thats what I'm currently trying to reconcile. Also trying to understand this new enomis wagon and who benefits and why.

I am also trying to get my head around why Shinobi defended Mala so strongly? That's not scum play to me.

You know what can be more important than trying to lynch scum? Not letting people lynch your townreads.

The Mala lynch makes absolutely no sense to me. When you really delve into what supposedly made her scum in the first place...None of the accusations were consistent with her posts. Yes, her style is

different

, but I don't really feel like anything she did at any point warranted a lynch.

And then when we really pressed her and threatened with a lynch, she gave up as much information as she could. That's a pro-town move in my eyes.

... but I'm not sure its 100% critical that you hit scum D1.

I think it's pretty important

in this game

that we hit scum D1 because scum know who the cop is.

If nothing else, just so we can squash this setup talk:

Some setups don't even have cops. The last game I was in had a tracker instead, and we probably wouldn't have needed it considering everyone was so intent on lynching Xayzeck after the second day started. (He was scum that game, lol.)

The cop kill would be interesting. MM isn't even particularly active, so you'd have to wonder if he'd have an impact on the game by idling through the night and not checking. There are also a huge number of town leaders in this game as well, so those are also enticing targets for mafia to hit.

But we really need to stop discussing setup. We're down to the last hours of the day and we need to lynch, and there's so much information out there right now that we can't clog it with this setup speculation.

EBWOP.

[Shinobi]

If nothing else, just so we can squash this setup talk:

Some setups don't even have cops.

True, but all setups have at least one town power role. It's needed to balance the game in a 7-2 split. We are about to lose ours.

The cop kill would be interesting. MM isn't even particularly active, so you'd have to wonder if he'd have an impact on the game by idling through the night and not checking. There are also a huge number of town leaders in this game as well, so those are also enticing targets for mafia to hit.

Agreed about MMs activity - but if I was scum I'd still take out the cop N1 in case he found me.

But we really need to stop discussing setup. We're down to the last hours of the day and we need to lynch, and there's so much information out there right now that we can't clog it with this setup speculation.

I wasn't discussing setup (this time) - I was discussing the importance of lynching scum D1.

Cool.

EBWOP.

what's an ebwop?

Edit by way of double post. You can't edit posts directly in this forum.

[Shinobi]

I remain unconvinced by what he's saying.

He still hasn't explained his scumread on Mala, and his post doesn't have the same kind of impact as hers did because she already made her reads fully intending to be hammered. Enomis could just copy her idea and steal it in an attempt to gain towncred.

His refusing to elaborate on why his vote is still on Mala is quite problematic.

Someone hammer this.

[Shinobi]

His refusing to elaborate on why his vote is still on Mala is quite problematic.

Someone hammer this.

This doesn't make sense?

It does. Mora asked him a while ago to elaborate on why he thinks Mala is scum, aside from lying. He proceeded to ignore the question and just say, "yeah, she's probably town but she's scum."

And now Wolfy thinks he's town and then hammers him anyway.

This game is going places.

[Shinobi]

And somehow hammering him fixes the problem?

What problem?

[Shinobi]

Oh no, we solved it by murdering him.

Because he was scum.

[Shinobi]

It's twilight. If you're town, go answer Mora's question.

[Shinobi]

Also if eno actually flips town that I would highly suggest hiplynching Mora.

[Shinobi]

I know, it's really hard for me to explain as well because I was so certain that enomis was mafia at the end of the day.

Ultimately I think it boils down to how he handled the Mala/eno lynch. He only unvoted Mala when he realized he wouldn't be able to gain traction...Maybe? I'm still not sure, but that's the only scumplayer I see at this point that makes any sort of sense if enomis is town.

But I still think enomis was scum. He still isn't answering Mora's question even in twilight, when he has nothing else to lose as town. His objective right now should be giving the town as much information as humanly possible, but he

still

isn't doing that, knowing full well that he's going to flip town as soon as the mod locks the thread.

[Shinobi]

Why Mala over Xayzeck?

Because she's the Wolfy/BBT false dilemma originator (#214)
Because "We can either have a doc or a BP." after a cop claim seems like a scumslip.
Because no reads, no scumhunting all day.
Because wifom arguments and "woe is me I'm terrible Day 1" instead of, you know, participation.
Because now, here, at the cusp of death, suddenly scumhunting, on a target with barely any posts, for bad reasons.

Enomis, riddle me this one, let's taking the whole lying shabang out of the equation, what's your opinion on the above.

This one.

The one we've mentioned multiple times.

[Shinobi]

I know, it's really hard for me to explain as well because I was so certain that enomis was mafia at the end of the day.

Ultimately I think it boils down to how he handled the Mala/eno lynch. He only unvoted Mala when he realized he wouldn't be able to gain traction...Maybe? I'm still not sure, but that's the only scumplayer I see at this point that makes any sort of sense if enomis is town.

But I still think enomis was scum. He still isn't answering Mora's question even in twilight, when he has nothing else to lose as town. His objective right now should be giving the town as much information as humanly possible, but he

still

isn't doing that, knowing full well that he's going to flip town as soon as the mod locks the thread.

Also I just realized that Mora just sheeped both of his scumreads onto a different lynch.

[Shinobi]

If I had to take a stab in the dark right now, based on enomis being town, I would say that the scumteam is Mora/Jcozmo.

Jcozmo has spent a bunch of his posts scumtelling like a motherfucker by doing shit like outing his confusion and giving reads with little to no reasoning behind them. Lots of his posts are questions, and after the entire bandwagon built up, he had his vote safely on Xayzeck (who is supertown, by the way) and he just fucked right off for the rest of the day. The dude doesn't really seem to give a shit about the lynch and I'd say that he would be the safest lynch tomorrow.

Mora's filter is scary, like super scary and I think you guys really need to keep a close eye on him. I've already posted some of my thoughts on him and I stand by the fact that none of the other players here would be able to run people in circles the same way he has. His logic is easy enough to follow when you look through his posts, but he's off to the side and pushing wagons while staying out of the spotlight. I'm actually really nervous that he's going to tear the town apart if you don't really pressure him soon, because it feels like the only reason he jumped off the Mala lynch was because I forced it and because it stopped gaining any traction. It's really hard to look past someone that's asking obvious questions and pushing the same targets that everyone else pushed but I'm really worried about this guy. (Xayzeck I'd really really like if you could post a case on him, or try posting a case at all. That would be awesome.)

BBT is town, Mala is town, Wolfy is town (even though that was probably the derpiest hammer I've ever seen) and MM is the cop. I don't see any other conclusions that can be drawn from this wagon other than a Jcozmo/Moratorium scumteam if enomis flips town.

Good luck on day 2 guys.

[Shinobi]

Mora, your post is really difficult to take apart so I'm not going to bother quoting it. Here are my thoughts on what you had to say:

No, you aren't alive because you're a burden to the town. You're alive because Wolfy was universally townread (albeit from some for faulty reasoning) and he was not going to be lynched, ever. Stop trying to use the defense of "I wasn't nightkilled oh woe is me," because nightkills are wifomy enough as they are.

Furthermore, what purpose would there be in me defending Mala if I thought she was town?

Especially

if I were actually mafia? It was an act that put me into the spotlight for no adequate reason, other than stopping a wagon on what I thought was a townread and then deflecting that wagon onto a scumread? Furthermore, the town was pretty dead-set on voting Mala off around that time. Why wouldn't I just blend in with the crowd? And why couldn't I just come up with faulty reasoning for lynching Mala with everyone else? Furthermore, why is it that when you unvote Mala you're not "looking for the right wagon?" Your logic looks and feels like a one-way street concerning how we handled this lynch.

And then there's the fact that you used a joke post to try and push me as a lynch. That's twisting my words to the point of ridiculousness.

Actually, after realizing that I had this whole giant post typed out, I'm not even sure I can take what you're saying seriously anymore. If you're only taking my posts at "face value," why should I bother explaining myself to you at all? You're probably going to twist these words in some way as well.

The bottom line is if that was actually a town versus town cross, scum could have done whatever they wanted. I'd suggest looking at the people who were manipulating the vote or staying off to the sides during that lynch, because there was no reason for scum to put themselves in danger at all during that lynch.

I'll address anything I missed later on in the evening, and I'll handle voting when I come back from the gym. See you all in a bit.

[Shinobi]

At least Shinobi has attempted to make a case. But it basically boils down to Enomis sees lying as a scum-tell, Shinobi doesn't, and Shinobi dislikes that Enomis thought Mala could be town but wanted to lynch her anyway.

The issue was that the reasons people were scumreading Mala were inconsistent with what she was actually posting. (Mostly generic stuff like, "no reads, no scumhunting, not active enough." All of these things are easily disproven when looking through her ISO...Though she does need to be more active at this point.) When enomis was questioned, he overlooked the questioning completely and went "yeah, she might be town but I'm scumreading her anyway."

Mala really, really needs to post now though.

[Shinobi]

- Shinobi's ISO involves building up a case on Wolfy that involved quoting him 9 times (i.e. effort), but that case evaporates within 2 posts (i.e. not real), at which point he breaks out the shotgun and starts peppering Wolfy and Malakittens with votes (i.e. looking for the right wagon), realises how wierd that looks, basically states in thread "I'm allowed to do this, ignore ignore ignore", and then forgets about both of them and votes Enomis (pushing very hard) based on lynching all lynchers of liars (LaLoL (tm)). At face value, it's completely flimsy.

A) Don't take my posts at face value. If you're not going to read into things, then I'm not going to bother explaining anything. I'm going to let it go this one time.
B) I fail to see how you think I was "looking for the right wagon." I very easily could have gotten Mala lynched yesterday had I so desired, but I townread her at the last second and tried to flip the lynch onto a scumread.
C) I don't understand how I can't just drop a case that I think is silly after being told by others that they think it's silly. (And based on Wolfy being night killed, yes, my case was silly and I was right to drop it.)

- Jcozmo's stated confusion about Shinobi "sticking his neck out" for Malakittens. I believe Shinobi may have recognized a potential incoming no-lynch, and tried to muddy the water a bit further on the offchance town would flail its way to deadline. This kinda happened, but instead of flailing to no-lynch, we (I) flailed to Enomis.

A) Haven't you been saying I've been pushing for a no-lynch, despite my statement that I was going to force a lynch on my townread if I absolutely had to?
B) I wasn't talking about Jcozmo's confusion regarding the Mala wagon. I was talking about Jcozmo's confusion. He makes posts that are just "man, I can't keep up with this. I'm so confused." And he just ignores the two wagons forming without a care in the world or even some sort of post regarding his level of interest in concern to the lynch candidates. It makes me think he's trying to blend in and get people to ignore him rather that trying to figure out who's scum and who isn't.

- Shinobi has made comments that attempt to put me up on some sort of pedestal, with what appears to be the intention of pointing up at me when I make any mistakes. It's blatant Appeal to Experience, and feels like a setup.

*** "I stand by the fact that none of the other players here would be able to run people in circles the same way he has."

I generally take it quite seriously when experienced players are wrong. I figured you were wrong about Mala, we were both obviously wrong about enomis, and now you're wrong about me. It starts to make me think you're being wrong intentionally.

*** "Mora, please play more games with me after this omfg."

This is a joke post. There is no alignment indicative information in this post whatsoever, aside from the fact that I like playing with you.

- "Also if eno actually flips town that I would highly suggest hiplynching Mora." There's really no reason to ever do this. Ever.

A) Fypov.
B) I think you and I have differing opinions on what "hiplynch" actually means.

- I feel gross about Shinobi's reaction (see my #567 post) when I asked him for Mala reads. I'm looking to work out this Malakittens wagon, so I ask for reasoning on my own reads from earlier in the game, and his response isn't to convince me, it's to attack my reads. When I point this out to him and push for more answers, his next response is just a 100% turnaround like "Oh, shit, yeah dude! I don't need to question what you said anymore!" and there's never any further followup regarding his original questioning of my reads.

I don't think I really understand what you're trying to say here. Could you rephrase this point?

- I also don't understand #409 and #413, where he mistakes who I think he's bussing and it causes him to vote for Wolfy? And then unvote Wolfy when I have to explain his bussing target to him? Why didn't he vote for me in post #409 if he thought I was bringing up obviously broken reasoning, and push it for all to see? Instead we get this wierd "I'll show you!" moment, where it appears he thought he'd found a reason to resume wagoning the most townread player...

Because I never considered the possibility of anyone thinking I was Mala's partner until much, much later.

I was going to handle voting, but I'm going to put it off longer until Mala comes back and gives her thoughts on things. I need to head out again and

hopefully

I'll be able to play later on.

(And also Mala, the difference between Xay and enomis is that I'm pretty sure Xay is town. He's my strongest townread at the moment.)

[Shinobi]

(Blue you might want to read the bolds in those quotes.)

[Shinobi]

He already said that he wanted information from Mala's flip.

This is not a good reason, but I'm still more focused on Jcozmo today. I just...Need more things to talk about, and I'm all out of them. I'm out of ideas.

[Shinobi]

@BBT

I think that the only reason anyone is questioning anyone's reasoning on the enomis wagon is because he was town. If he had flipped scum, everyone would be patting themselves on the back because they lynched scum day 1. The reality of it was that enomis didn't really have any good reasoning for any of his scumreads; that's why I voted him, and I'm pretty sure that's why Xayzeck voted him.

The only person I really have an issue with on that wagon was Mora. Mora had Mala and I as his prime scumreads, and then proceeded to vote with us on the enomis lynch.

Why would you sheep your scumreads ever?

I think that Xayzeck really hit a nail on the head by pointing out that he was rolefishing, because that was something that I didn't catch. His actions simply do not make sense from a town perspective, because town doesn't sheep their scumreads. (Then there's also the confidence that he was going to see day 2. That's a little disconcerting for me, but maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill.)

I think that Jcozmo messed up pretty badly by not being on the lynch. I still think that Mala vs eno was a town versus town cross, and I think that Jcozmo just fucked off completely because neither him nor his scumbuddy had their necks on the line. Obviously enomis was a bad lynch, but Jcozmo simply didn't take part in either of the lynches without trying to propose an alternative. Why would he bother? He was safe for the day, so why bother ruining a good thing?

Answer: because he is scum.

The only reason I won't vote for him yet is because I'm not sure if he's at L-2 or L-1. I really wish we had a vote count.

[Shinobi]

I'm considering that OMGUS could be a part of my thinking process, but I'm still pretty focused on Jcozmo right now. He could be legit afk, and we simply have no way of knowing. I'm probably not going to vote Mora today unless some crazy shit happens.

We need him to talk.

[Shinobi]

Mora why are you defending Jcozmo?

[Shinobi]

Mora, I really don't like the way you've been handling this game thus far. You've been shitting on the thread atmosphere repeatedly and trying to shame the town into working harder, when it's actually abundantly clear that this game has a far higher post count than most of the other games in the newbie queue.

And also...There's not really a whole lot of doubt going around. The only person scumreading me is you, and I've already pointed out why your reasoning is bad. Yet for some reason you continue scumreading me. So, aside from you, there are two players that are near universally townread. There's simply no way I'm going to let Xayzeck be lynched any time soon, and the scumreads on him are silly as well. So I'm going to go ahead and consider that #3. Mala is only being scumread by BBT, who wants to lynch for information (which is far and away worthless in the grand scheme of things) making that another silly scumread. That's #4.

When it comes down to brass tacks, town seems pretty focused aside from a few gimpy reads that come from left field for no adequate reason.

Then there's the fact that I've actually posted a case

twice

on Jcozmo and he has yet to refute either of them in a towny manner. That seems pretty focused, in yet you say the town isn't focused...What? What in the actual fuck? That doesn't actually make any sense when you look at the facts. And then you say he's scummy but you don't want to vote for him? And then you post a giant list saying "we probably shouldn't vote Jcozmo off because he's so scummy?"

The only doubt I really see here is that the town can't really decide how to order their townreads. Your case on Mala was bad, your case on me was bad, and I don't see you doing anything other than trying to steer the vote away from Jcozmo for no adequate reason other than "he's too scummy."

Though I really appreciate the fact that you posted my reads in order so everyone could see them. That way, we can just lynch up that list until we win and everyone has a reference point. Thanks!

[Shinobi]

And also I'm pretty sure MM tried to vote you at one point. So you can just move yourself to the bottom of his list as well.

[Shinobi]

And also I'm pretty sure MM tried to vote you at one point. So you can just move yourself to the bottom of his list as well.

Oh, my, the indignance. Here, I moved myself to the bottom of his list.

In my mind.

You'll be quizzed on it later.

Back on topic, I felt like your initial wall-o'-reads post was meant to dissuade people from voting Jcozmo by saying, "this guy has no defenders...maybe we should rethink this." That's the vibe that I got from your post, because I don't really feel like it was going to be useful in the grand scheme of things. It bothered me because I thought you were trying to defend him without appearing like you were trying to defend him.

I really don't feel like responding to your play by play so maybe I'll do it later if I feel like it/need to...But I'm beginning to think that I should move you higher up on my townreads list.

What a disappointing prospect.

On a side note, I'm also beginning to think we should have lynched Mala.

[Shinobi]

K. Sorry about my inactivity. Just I feel I got the game figured out so it's more me waiting on flips before anything else to see if my theory is right

Wow...I mean...it's just...what???

I am so, so glad you managed to save yourself on D1. Your contribution on D2 has been absolutely outstanding, I'm not sure how we would have won this game without your contributions. You were right, you do have a bad D1 but oh my, our D2 has been nothing short of stupendously outstanding. /sarcasm

I will also have the game sorted after a few flips as well. In fact, I'm going to stick my neck on the line here, and say that EVERYONE would have this game sorted out after a few flips. I can't believe you actually just posted that after all your inactivity.

So, here we are. An awful, awful, awful (not sure whether 3rd awful is warranted, probably is though) D1 from you, and D2 might actually be even worse.

Can anybody who is town-reading Mala please explain to me how they are doing so?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mala

At this point, I'm retracting it. I had an issue with the conditions of her lynch yesterday because the reasons people were scumreading her were incredibly faulty, despite the AtE and whatnot. I think it's pretty clear now that she's only posting enough to get by without drawing attention to herself, which I have a problem with. (And that I might have fallen victim to some AtE...Which makes me an unhappy camper.)

Also, I think we should refrain from talking about Jcozmo's slot until a replacement comes into play. His actions were scummy, but the player can't defend himself if he isn't here. I don't want our reads to start going wild as soon as he leaves the picture.

VOTE: Mala

Saving you on day 1 was a mistake. One that I won't make a second time.

[Shinobi]

Still good for a Jcozmo vote, but I'm going to hold off on it until the slot is replaced. I don't think it's worth just prodding him again after he's been gone for a week.

@mod, please replace Jcozmo. Prodding isn't useful, he's been gone 6 days. Also, please consider extending the deadline.

Sample set size concerns aside, the scum newbie replacement rate on this site is over 50%, and Jcozmo's slot would be the second replacement, which I consider as decent supporting evidence.

This is what I'm talking about. It's factual, sure...But enomis replaced in as well. Let's not go crazy with going down the "Jcozmo is scum" line of thought, because you've already pointed out why that could be a bad thing.

[Shinobi]

On a side note, I'm also beginning to think we should have lynched Mala.

Why, do you suddenly think she's scum?

My issue is that she's coasting and fillering at this point now that the heat is off of her.

And also, I don't think having Mora and Mala as town makes sense in my list of reads. Either Mora is a diabolical mastermind leading the post count of this game by pitting the town against itself...Or Mala had a shitty day 1 and saved herself by the skin of her teeth and is just rolling along doing the bare minimum.

I'm still pretty sure BBT is town, you're my hard townread at this point, and the other player is a cop. I think that lynching the other three (in order of Jcozmo, Mala, and maybe Mora) would produce the best results.

[Shinobi]

I'm impressed. Those are, in fact, words.

I'm pretty tired right now, but I'll look through what Regfan is saying in the morning/afternoon tomorrow.

UNVOTE: Mala

[Shinobi]

Moratorium wrote:
I also don't understand #409 and #413, where he mistakes who I think he's bussing and it causes him to vote for Wolfy? And then unvote Wolfy when I have to explain his bussing target to him?

Why didn't he vote for me in post #409 if he thought I was bringing up obviously broken reasoning, and push it for all to see?

Instead we get this wierd "I'll show you!" moment, where it appears he thought he'd found a reason to resume wagoning the most townread player...

I didn't understand this when it occurred, and I still don't.

Shinobi, please address this, what happened here?

Because I kinda didn't realize what you were saying. I thought, when you brought up bussing, that you thought I made a huge case to bus my supposed partner with. My votes on Mala were incredibly flimsy, and if I really wanted to "bus," I would have come up with a large number of reasons and try to look as good as possible by pushing her.

Serious question: was

anything

I did regarding the Mala lynch look like it was intended to make me look good? Because I'm 100% certain that both of us came out looking like shit.

And also, what's with this "wagoning" business? I was a "wagon" of one person.

[Shinobi]

I should probably elaborate; you say that she's super town here:

on Xayzeck (who is supertown, by the way)

But it doesn't match your prior stances of her quoted below:

To be honest, I keep forgetting that Xayzeck exists. I'm not entirely sure if it's because that's just the way he plays or if it's because he's mafia and he's trying to stay out of sight. Even when I was posting reads during my last game with him I forgot him completely. If we lynch Xayzeck, I think I'd be 100% alright with it. I want more information in the thread first though.

I already told you what I thought of Xayzeck. I keep forgetting that he exists, and I'm not sure if it's his playstyle or because he's scum avoiding the limelight. I played with him last game and he was scum, but he has the same feel of not sticking out in his posts and I'm not sure if it's because that's how he plays or if because he rolled mafia again.

Is it at all possible that Xayzeck and thatguy2 are a team?

If Wolfy is town, then the only people I'd probably vote off today are Xayzeck and Mala, unless I'm forgetting someone.

So where did your town read on Xay come from because your last mention of him before that was as someone you'd happily lynch.

Meta.

Assuming you've read the thread, you know that I've played with Xay before, and his scum game looked almost nothing like this. (Fun fact: I actually scumread Xay pretty early into our first game together, but a certain

someone

tunneling me fucked up my reads. I guess that's why there are scumteams.) There's a distinct difference in tone and what he tries to accomplish, where he tries to deflect arguments and redirect your attention rather than just going "meh, fuck off."

Here are some quotes from last game:

I've voted, and I've voiced some concerns, I just haven't posted much because I haven't had the time to get on a computer. Also, any reason you're more interested in me as compared to Luman or tipar, who haven't posted anything up until this post, or Rolodex, who has the same number of posts as I have in this thread?

Note the number of excuses and the fact that he likens himself to other players, trying to indicate that he fits in with the town. Gosh darn it, you just can't lynch him because there are other people doing the exact same thing he is.

Chill? And discourage hunting scum?

At the time you said this, excluding those who have only done RVS, nobody is messing around except you.

And then there are these two gems. Both of these are based on making people look bad (namely me, because he is nothing if not a dick) without determining their alignment

or

voting them. Scum!Xay likes to egg on bandwagons, though it's possible he could have improved since then.

(For the quotes in context, check out his ISO: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p5721682 )
(His ISO from last game will do far more justice to these quotes than I can here.)

My only issue with Xay now is that I'm not 100% on that read anymore, especially since Captain Americop has come in to save the day and deliver some real shit. Last game, I got tunneled and I forgot that Xay existed. This game...I forgot he existed. Again. I'm not sure if that's the scumtell I'm looking for, since I'm not sure if that's just the way he plays or if he's scum. (Fun fact #2: a quick meta dive reveals that, yeah, his towngames are kinda barren as well) But I've seen his scumplay firsthand, and I think that, if I caught him that early in the game before, then I would've figured out if he was scum by now well enough on my own.

(Also, I love how Regfan already pointed out that meta arguments are bad, because that was what I was basing my read on in the first place. Lol.)
(Also, if someone could point out how to link numbered posts, that would be great because I have no idea how to do that. Also I can't seem to post urls without stupiding them into being broken.)

[Shinobi]

No, they're not the same they were in the other game.

His early posts in the other game were made almost exclusively to cast doubt on other players and blend in. I simply don't see the same motivation behind his early game posts.

Though I'm 100% taking what you're saying into account. I'll reconsider, depending on what you bring to the table.

[Shinobi]

Posts 30 and 31 could be considered scummy...If you take them at face value by looking at the "casting doubt" aspect of what I was saying earlier. The way I saw them initially were based on him being focused on getting out of RVS.

I strongly disagree with post 41, though. I think you might be ignoring some of the quotations.

I think I need to mull on what you're saying. Keep posting, I'll be reading.

[Shinobi]

1) I don't think you're misreading him. I think that there's something I'm missing in this game and it makes it really hard to read someone fairly when you've already found them once. I have no firsthand experience with his town game, so I have nothing to compare his supposed scumminess to. My brain is just starting to get used to the idea that this is how he plays, rather than if he's scum or not. I feel pretty lost right now, so having your input on what's going on with him is somewhat refreshing.

2) Nope. Just you. If you absolutely forced me to refrain from voting a single person this game...Probably Mala. Maybe. The only thing that bugs me is her lack of activity. BBT was going to be my second thought, but your opinions on him made me change my mind.

3) You and also you because you are sticking a gun to my head and mafia has guns.

4) If Xay is scum...I'd have to say BBT, if nothing else than by PoE. Mala and Mora don't make sense as partners. I'm town. You're the cop. Xay just put Jcozmo at L-1.

5) I've already refuted it...? I don't know what kind of information you want from me here. I know you want something from me, but you should probably just go read it and then ask me specifics, because I can't answer you when you ask something like that.

[Shinobi]

Shin, 1) Fair enough. 2) What led towards the change from Mala being the person you were voting to the person you're most comfortably maybe calling town again? 3) I really do want an answer for this; gun to your head right now who are the two scum? Take a stance, I don't care if you change your mind later as long as you can explain how and why your read changed. 4) Fair enough except for the Jcoz section; you don't think scum can buss/distance? 5) Was more looking for whether you thought overall his case was decent but just incorrect in the conclusion or if you thought it was a case of town in a tunnel or scum pushing a mslynch.

2) I'm not

super

comfortable calling Mala town at this point. I'm not really comfortable calling anyone town. I'm just saying if I needed to rule someone out, it would probably be Mala. I stand by the fact that the reasons for people scumreading her were bad, but her lack of activity was what caused me to vote her again. Every time she gets active, I start townreading her again. She needs to stay that way. >.>

3) Jcozmo and Mora, probably. I already gave my logic in my twilight post. You can go and ISO it if you want, but unless you convince me that Xay is mafia (again) then that's probably where my vote is going next.

4) Will answer when I'm not tired. I feel like I would need quotes and examples to back up this line of thinking and I don't feel like I can do so properly at the moment. Short answer is that the interactions between Mora/BBT and Mala/BBT feel genuine, and I simply don't think either of those teams make sense.

5) Decent but incorrect. I can see the merits of his case in places, but I feel like I've had solid logic as to why I was doing those things.

[Shinobi]

I'm not

super

comfortable calling Mala town at this point. I'm not really comfortable calling anyone town. I'm just saying if I needed to rule someone out, it would probably be Mala. I stand by the fact that the reasons for people scumreading her were bad, but her lack of activity was what caused me to vote her again. Every time she gets active, I start townreading her again. She needs to stay that way. >.>

I just want to make sure because you’re said this a few times now; you’re not considering the reasons for people pushing on her being "bad" as an indication that she's town, right? Because that would make her null, if there's a lot more to it (Which I'd hope there is) can you summarise it for me?

I think you misunderstood 4), I'm interested in why you think Xay/Jcoz aren't scum together; scum can buss and distance.

Oh, lol.

The reasons Mala was being pushed made me think she was town in the beginning, so I spearheaded a counterwagon...Onto another town. So that kind of makes it a moot point, since said town (enomis) didn't elaborate on why Mala was scum when prodded to do so. I don't like people being lynched for shoddy reasoning, it always makes me think "storyline lynch" and that the person leading it is scum. (Naturally, enomis was town. Town players can have shoddy reasoning too.)

My issue is that, when she actually sits down and does stuff, it's pretty in-tandem with the rest of the game/thread, so it makes me believe she is town. And then she stops posting for a really long time and starts making excuses, which dulls my read/makes her null.

And also, if Xayzeck wanted to bus Jcozmo, don't you think that he would look for the best possible towncred before the flip? Xayzeck lazily putting Jcoz at L-1 indicates that he just flat out doesn't give a shit about this player; I don't see a world where scum just kinda throws some dude under the bus and goes "meh, whatever" without trying their damndest to look good after the flip. Keep in mind that they kinda have to, because their teammate is dead and they have to survive a whole 'nother day without incurring the wrath of the town.

I just don't feel like Xayzeck's actions regarding Jcoz's possible lynch indicates that either of them are a team. Does that make sense?

[Shinobi]

This entire back-and-forth reminds me of the time that I had to pry BBT's reads out of him.

[Shinobi]

My point, hopefully clear, is that your expressed thoughts on Regfan's case perpetuate a view of your play as high-volume, but

low-content

, which is scummy.

That actually made me laugh. Well done.

This entire back-and-forth reminds me of the time that I had to pry BBT's reads out of him.

Meaning what?

You're being hard to work with for no reason.

And I really don't like the fact that you just tried to shed some doubt on Mora.

[Shinobi]

*crickets*

[Shinobi]

BBT, you’re wrong on Mora. Really really wrong, I can cope with you pushing on Mala because while I think she’s town I’m not entirely sold on it but with Mora I’d be shocked if he’s scum here. I find the whole “I played badly D1” post of his that you’ve quoted to be understandable, when I mslynch someone I do come out admitting that I didn’t play it well the next day and the intention behind that isn’t to be “town-read” it’s to state a genuine fact.

What do you make of his reasoning for his Enomis vote?

Also, I'm a he. It's really confusing me reading your posts

PEdit - Mora, are you worried about being universally town-read?

I really enjoy it, I can do crazy shit and no one cares!

vote: JacobSavage

dayvig: BBT

I don't townread you. I will never townread you.

@FF: Who is Shinori?

[Shinobi]

<3

[Shinobi]

We should probably lynch Xayzeck though.

[Shinobi]

Shinobi can you explain the

”And I really don't like the fact that you just tried to shed some doubt on Mora.”

section of Post 981 because I dont’ see it really fitting with your read on him in Post 960, Post 985, Post 1025 ect. If you think Mora is scum/not-town wouldn’t BBT shining doubt on him be a good thing? Also run me through exactly which points sold you finally on Xay being a good lynch.

Both of these can be answered by my reads changing to suit yours. My point on not being able to differentiate between Xay's town/scumgames is probably what affected my read early, but I'm beginning to think that you can make a more accurate on him than I can.

And it wasn't so much that BBT was just shedding doubt on him; it's that he was shedding doubt on him in such an offhand manner that it made me think that BBT didn't actually care about his alignment.

[Shinobi]

If you ISO me, you will see that I have stated numerous times why I town-read Shinobi, I have town-read him for quite some time.

In Post 775 you state the only way you can see Shinobi as scum is if Mala is his partner - don't really agree with that, don't think it's impossible for Scum!Shinobi to defend Town!Mala but okay,

Shinobi is by no means new to mafia he's been playing for a long long time over at epicmafia

and one of the best ways to attain town cred would be white knighting a townie so I'm not ruling him out for that at all. Earlier than that though you expressed doubt on this read in Post 405 but really the only explanation of your read on him is back in Post 211 which is a long time ago. So if I'm missing a more recent explanation just link it to me otherwise can you let me know what your updated/current town read on him is based on please.

Hey look I'm famous.

You play on em? What's your toon's name? And is Shinobi not actually

the dick-slingin'est motherfucker on the planet

!?

Oh and I also play on TL and SC2mafia so there's that.

[Shinobi]

Xay, you should probably claim anyway. Just fyi.

I really love how Reg thinks so highly of me. Like I'm honestly flattered.

[Shinobi]

Chill out Reg, I'm town.

[Shinobi]

Yeah, because you've kinda been doing my job for me.

And also, I'm the one who came around to listening to you. I've actually been

asking

you to explain things because I felt lost after our super awesome day 1. So don't sit here and tell me that I'm not trying because I'm listening to what you have to say and trying to see where you're coming from.

You're the best thing to happen to this game for town and I'm totally letting you do your thing. I probably wouldn't even have bothered lynching Xay today if you didn't show up, rofl.

[Shinobi]

You're holding the whole game up by doing so.

Reg wants me to post analysis on the other possible scum candidates, and you're not posting. I can't analyze lurkers.

[Shinobi]

"No original content."

*Complete silence.*

Apparently F-16 doesn't give a shit, so let's just pressure him until he gives us something good or we lynch him. I'll be shocked if he expects us to townread him based off of all the nothing he gave us. His reads are scarily opportunistic as it stands (scumreading BBT and Xay based on early shit, giving us nothing new, and casting doubt on me without actually saying so [PoE analysis] as Reg tries pressuring me), but I'm still down with lynching Xayzeck I think.

Waiting on Regfan.

[Shinobi]

I'd complain, but as long as you say you'll do it, that's probably fine.

[Shinobi]

I'd like to note that this is actually the first time anyone has considered a scumteam of Mora and myself. Also:

Pedestaaaaaaallllsssss.....~~~~~~~~~~~

Regfan, if you're going to scumread me, at the very least come out and say it so I can defend myself properly. The last thing town needs is for borderline confirmed town to start manipulating people. You want hard facts, not bullshit about "scum motivation" and "active lurking," which are hardly even true anymore because I can't analyze something that isn't done.

Here's some advice: go take a look and see if you can see town motivation for my posts. (Re: fucking everything)

Furthermore, you keep saying you're going to come on and vote for Xayzeck, so I'd suggest you get the fuck back here and do it because we're running out of time. Or turn the vote back onto F-16 if you feel like it, because I really don't give a shit about him at this point either.

For good measure, F-16 you should absolutely finish your analysis by either tonight or early tomorrow. If you don't, we lynch you because you're being anti-town as fuck and I'm not going to sit here pounding nails into my face trying to get an answer for a player that's sitting on the knife's edge anyway. Xayzeck isn't going anywhere regardless, and almost all of us scumread you anyway.

Also, your reads are really dumb and only serve to cause more confusion. At this point, I'm relatively certain that Mora is town because I feel like my earlier analysis of him was based on him being experienced (which I have had visited upon myself and, yes, it is really dumb). I don't think there's any reason to doubt Mora or myself, so this kind of analysis makes me feel really uneasy about having you around any longer.

And no, contributing does not make someone town. I don't think you're town. It feels like you're casting doubt on what two of the more active players in the game have tried to accomplish and it seems like you're trying to undermine the trust we just built over the course of the day.

[Shinobi]

If you think Xay is the rber, shouldn't we be voting him instead today? Cop and check him and confirm him if it's true.

[Shinobi]

If you think Xay is the rber, shouldn't we be voting him instead today? Cop can check him and confirm him if it's true.

Ebwop.

But I think you understood it regardless.

[Shinobi]

I don't think it's really implied when the only other person anyone else wants lynched today is Mala, who isn't getting lynched today.

[Shinobi]

Stop implying things all of the things you have implied are dumb.

Also the issue isn't "you're not contributing," it's that you're contributing in such a way to induce chaos. Hurry up, people are waiting for you.

Also also Mora I think you should stop voting this guy at this point.

[Shinobi]

Actually I think this might mark the second time we tried to step in and lynch someone that we didn't like rather than scum.

[Shinobi]

Holy shit when did Mora hammer? Rofl I didn't even notice people voting F-16.

Boy we are in for a fun ride.

[Shinobi]

Mala coasted a shitton through today too.

Rofl the replacements are just getting wrecked. We have two lynchbait players heading into lylo, this is gonna be messy.

[Shinobi]

Mala coasted a shitton through today too.

Rofl the replacements are just getting wrecked. We have two lynchbait players heading into lylo, this is gonna be messy.

Who are the lynchbait players exactly?

Mala and Xayzeck. Mala keeps martyring herself (which, at this point, is really concerning) and Xayzeck is universally scumread.

It'll be really scary to be in a 5 way with those two, but I have no idea who's gonna bite it tonight. This is gonna be terrifying.

[Shinobi]

I'm taking the credit for this town win.

I am the one who ensured Mala being alive at the end of day 1. I am the town MVP.

[Shinobi]

I'm taking the credit for this town win.

I am the one who ensured Mala being alive at the end of day 1. I am the town MVP.

Faceplant Bro's 4 Lyfe

#nailedit

[Shinobi]

Too late, Mala. The damage is done.

The dead are now walking the earth.

[Shinobi]

BBT is a bamf. I've seen new players do okay, but he's the first player I've ever seen tear shit up in their first game ever.

Quite convincing, well-spoken, and a bunch of other nice words. Definitely looking forward to playing more with you in the future.

[Shinobi]

I'd love some analysis, tbh.

[Shinobi]

I'm going to tell a story for no particular reason.

The site went down (obvs) and I freaked out because we were going into lylo and I was super pumped because I was going to reevaluate all my reads and do some game changing stuff.

And then the site came back up and I died.

Thanks scumteam.

[Shinobi]

Shin went after you earlier in Day 1 for what I would call a filler post.

Hey, I caught on.

[Shinobi]

I'm actually quite curious. You played with scum-Xay and you said multiple times that you forgot about him that game and he was doing something similar this game. Why didn't you go after him that hard? You didn't even try to engage him in regards to that which is making me curious about that. I know my lack of interactions with Xay, was bad myself, but that's because I was in a tunnel this game.

Xay himself actually touched on this a bit. As regfan and others have pointed out, I'm not exactly what you would call a "new player;" I've been playing for a while and I've got a ton of experience on EpicMafia. The issue is that, without experience with the forum setup, there's going to be stuff that I miss out on since I play mostly on analyzing the flow of conversation and looking for differences in behavior. The issue with reading Xayzeck was that I couldn't tell if he was scum again or if that's how he played. Since I didn't have any experience with his town game, I just filed him under "town" and left him alone for the most part, since I just didn't detect any incongruencies between this game and the last.

It's an aspect of my play I came here to improve, and I definitely got that out of the deal by coming here.

Now, on the flip side, it means I can read someone as town without them even doing all that much. Mora and BBT both picked up on it: every time I tried voting you, I knew I didn't even believe the reasons you were being voted, even though I never actually bothered reading your meta or looking at the circumstances of why people were scumreading you. Mora knew my votes were contrived and scumread me for it.

By the time you were posting your list, I had you filed under "bad lynch" far beforehand. I was willing to take almost any excuse to get you out of there.

Thank you for the analysis, btw. Much appreciated. Hope to see all of you in future games.