Gunner Mafia [Endgame]

[GreyICE]

So Mulch sent me my role PM in a spoiler tag, and I decided not to open it. I'm probably town, but just in case, can the scum tell me their names so I know not to lynch them until I open the box?

[GreyICE]

Vote Hopkirk

Eh, even if I'm scum I'll buy credibility with a good bus.

[GreyICE]

If there's the usual ratio at least 75% chance!

[GreyICE]

Voting scum isn't a good way to find scum.
We've already found scum.
The problem is voting them.

Could you self vote and speed things up?

[GreyICE]

Voting scum isn't a good way to find scum.
We've already found scum.
The problem is voting them.

Could you self vote and speed things up?

You are 100% confirmed scum to me right now. We need to 1v1. Anyone who votes outside of us from this point on is confirmed wolf. On a scale of one to infinity, you are infinitly scum. You need to flip to death and I will

pillage

your corpse for the towncred that will naturally follow from me being so so right about how terrible a thing you are. That's right, a thing, not a person. You can try and hide it all you want, but everyone with

eyes

can BLATENTLY see exactly what you are doing here. It makes me sick to even be having to case you for being obvious scum here. Anyone who isn't voting for Grey here should take a moment to consider whether they read their role pms wrong, because being scum is literally the only way you couldn't see exactly what kind of

SICK

game Greyice is trying to play here. The scum/wolf stench is so strong I can bearly bear actually voting with him. The association with that much scum in one place makes me feel like scum too. You are the scum

abyss

and even a glance makes me feel worse, let alone a gaze. The scumminess radiating from you in every direction makes me want to lynch you, and the people above and below you in the playerlist. I am shocked and appalled that you haven't been either lynched, or vigged already. It is simply inconcievable that you, scum incarnate, are still here right now.

They'll never suspect this

really is

a mutual hard bus.

Sweet! Well I wouldn't be a part of any scumteam that would accept me as a member, so I think we've reached mutual understanding!

[GreyICE]

Vote: CheekyTeeky

[GreyICE]

I'm almost inclined to vote Quick to cut down on the spam.

[GreyICE]

Ausuka, how is it mean to scumread people? Assuming roles are randomly distributed, surely you have as much chance of drawing scum as I do (although slightly higher chance of knowing if you did). So is it mean to say "you were randomly selected for the scumteam?" Do you think that Mulch assigned scum preferentially to people he disliked? Or is this just an appeal to emotion?

[GreyICE]

Mmmm, if you're a scumlean should I be voting you?

[GreyICE]

Then what are your reads on Cheeky Teeky? I'm starting to feel after two examples that the main thing you're noting is how people read you.

[GreyICE]

At this point I'm fully willing to lynch Quick and Toranaga for being spammy as fuck, and Ausuka and Hopkirk for being scum.

[GreyICE]

Hopkirk desperately searching for evidence of what role I might have amuses me.

Centipede votes are trash.

[GreyICE]

Even if Creature was somehow confirmed town, that doesn't magically make their read any better.

Also Quick? You now have nearly six pages of this thread that's just you. Just. Fucking. You. I'm not even being nice anymore. Learn to shut the fuck up.

Pedit: Hopkirk can blow me, those are great reads. If you're trying to signal I shouldn't be bussing my scumbuddies so early, sorry, still riding the 75%.

[GreyICE]

Every single person except Thor has confirmed, so although I originally intended to wait to start the game before he confirmed (beacuse he never technically confirmed his pre/in), I'm not going to hold the entire game hostage over one person. If he does end up getting "replaced", don't hold it against him.

This is what proves Greyice was lying.

I told you, Mulch sent me my role entirely inside a spoiler tag, and I never opened it. I even told him in my confirmation note that I was avoiding spoilers.

It seems you got a slightly different role PM from me. Did yours have a QT link outside the spoiler section perhaps?

[GreyICE]

I mean your wagon is so bad that it practically confirms you town. Cheeky, Tchill, and Panopticon?

All it really needs is Ausuka and Hopkirk, and we could probably blow the thing up and kill the entire scumteam.

[GreyICE]

If mulch has a problem with me, he can take it up with me. Otherwise I don't know whether you're Varsoon or TN, and I don't really care. Bite me.

[GreyICE]

Oh and useless hydra, here's the site rules:

Subject: Forum Rules and Guidelines

Mafia Rules

Breaking rules, not posting, or certain other behavior may result in a modkill or replacement in affected games; rules regarding this should be (and generally are) included up front by the Game Moderator. Some rules apply to most games, and should be assumed to hold unless the Game Moderator explicitly says otherwise. These are:

1. Do not attempt to play the same game under more than one name.
   
2. Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises, "trust tells", alliances, etc. Using
   knowledge
   from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another.
   
3. Do not talk outside the game thread about an ongoing game except where explicitly allowed to do so by your role/moderator. Likewise, do not use bbcode to hide secret messages - this equates to discussion outside the thread. For more information on this, please see this post.
   
4. Do not edit/delete posts.
   
5. Do not quote communications with the moderator (in particular, your role PM). Paraphrasing is usually ok.
   
6. Do not post in the game after you are dead or replaced. Some moderators do allow contentless "Bah!" posts, but you should never reveal information once you are dead.
   
7. Play to win the game.
   
8. Since Mafia is based largely on conflict and psychological manipulation, we are somewhat more tolerant of aggressive and heated posts in-game than in the rest of the forums. However, game mods will often take action for excessively abusive behavior or slurs, up to and including a force-replacement or modkill. In certain cases, posters with multiple or severe offenses may receive site-wide punishments from the list moderators, such as temporary or permanent bans from joining or playing games. Please refer to the most recent pages of the Ban/Restrictions Announcements thread for an idea of what behavior crosses the line.
   
9. Off-site games that are organized in an official manner (e.g. Large Social Games hosted on zetaboards) are subject to on-site rules.

All disputes regarding an ongoing game should be taken to the moderator of the game by PM.

Game Moderators should never modkill or replace over personal issues; instead, they should follow the rules set at the beginning of the game. If you feel the Game Moderator is being unreasonable, you may contact the appropriate List Mod or a site administrator.

In some cases, actions taken with the intent of ruining a game may result in further action against the user, such as a limitation on the number of games that user can play, or a temporary or permanent ban. Any player that is force-replaced for breaking site rules may not "replace back in" to those games after the ban is over.

Those are straight from the horse's mouth.

Feel free to stop making shit up about what's in them and start playing mafia any time. Because I might not know what alignment I am, but yours is getting pretty fucking obvious.

[GreyICE]

As I said Bins, the moderator has no problem with me. If he required me to read my role PM then I would - moderators are free to set requirements above and beyond the site rules. For instance there are no site rules requiring certain activity levels in game, yet most moderators have some minimum level of posting required. Some moderators set limitations on the maximum number of posts required. Some moderators set deadlines for days, some moderators require you to follow post restrictions. None of this involves site rules.

As you are not the moderator, and you are not the site admins, maybe you should be playing mafia, hmmm? It's what I'm doing.

[GreyICE]

Is an Ausuka wagon actually happening? Be still my heart.

[GreyICE]

@Gork: Nah, it's because he hates softclaims as much as I do. Since the site meta from dunderheads is to hugbot softclaims like they're the baby jesus, he'd just ignore it if he were scum.

Also the wagon could probably confirm a fucking Mafia Godfather claim town.

[GreyICE]

Ausuka or Hopkirk.

Was that really that hard to figure out from my ISO?

[GreyICE]

My main issue with GreyIce is that they aren't doing anything in the game.

Please explain, scumfuck. What exactly should I "be doing" in the game? Or is this hollow meaningless bullshit?

[GreyICE]

I think every vote on Quick is because people are tired of him generating almost 8 pages of "content" in a game that's less than two days old. I know between him and Torantaga I'm damn close to replacing out because this shit is dreadful to read, and I'm coming close to supporting a policy lynch.

[GreyICE]

Vote:Quick

[GreyICE]

It is blatantly obviously their playstyle.
If this isn't sabre rattling you should replace out now - they're obviously not going to change and the game will take 2-3 game days to start slowing and you know it.
If it's sabre rattling, I don't get the point.

Check my vote my friend, I'm going for the third option. If this is their playstyle it's not alignment indicative, and thus this is in Hoopla terms, the highest utility lynch possible.

[GreyICE]

Also did Toranaga try to argue that Tchill is a better scum player than Hopkirk?

Is that actually what he just argued?

Because maybe I'm voting the wrong spam poster, especially if Tchill is town and Hopkirk is scum. And my god, I feel Hopkirk scum in my bones.

[GreyICE]

That's not what he said at all...@Grey

Ah good, then. Since you have some sort of inside connection that lets you chat with Toranaga and tell me about his reads, what does this mean exactly?

For what reason do you want to convince me differently, Toranaga?

-ObserVed

I want a higher scum equity player getting lynched.

Because I think that's exactly what he said.

[GreyICE]

Yeah, Toranaga is a useless sack of dog turds.

[GreyICE]

Like, you dumb shit, the meaning of the word "equity" is the difference between the assets of the company and the liabilities of a company.

In other words equity is synonymous with value.

YOU SAID HE WAS THE HIGHER VALUE SCUM PLAYER YOU DUMBSHIT

You calling someone else illiterate is like the elephant man calling other people ugly.

[GreyICE]

Gunner kill: Toranaga

[GreyICE]

Why am I being voted?

WHY ME = FRY ME

Vote: Tchill13

[GreyICE]

Also why me doesn't equal fry me or else nobody would say why me.

Of course it does. Always has, always will.

[GreyICE]

What do shitty scum do? They sit there and cry "why me" because they think it's super unfair they're being wagonned when there's

townies

behaving like them.

Fry you little scum bitch.

[GreyICE]

Also why me doesn't equal fry me or else nobody would say why me.

Of course it does. Always has, always will.

This "tell" has been around since we first started here. It was never that accurate to being with and is likely even less accurate now. Not really liking the strongarm.

Tell you what, if you're right... eh, I still won't give a crap. You're wrong.

[GreyICE]

You think there's going to be a mod error?

[GreyICE]

Actually Chilly, less rhetorical. What games have we played together?

[GreyICE]

I've fully scumclaimed with gif related before, so, ah, I'm really feeling like there's scum between tortuga and nochill.

-ObserVed

Really. Gotta be one or the other. Toranaga can't be scum bussing his useless buddy who never posts? They can't be town embroiled in a misunderstanding?

[GreyICE]

You know, tchill, your 3 pretty shoddy posts, followed by a temper tantrum over being wagoned because "townies are getting away with the same thing" without any sign of scumhunting?

Yeah, it's pretty fucking bad play. It's also pretty fucking scummy play.

[GreyICE]

You'll excuse me if your award winning argument of "I'm scummy and have no idea who is in the game, but I'll still flip town, you meanie!" doesn't win any points.

Do you plan to start playing at some point? Or just try and threaten us with a "townflip" and scumplain about how people aren't nice?

[GreyICE]

That justification seems very weak. What about the post is "super townie"?

[GreyICE]

Ausuka is still scum, Hopkirk is town. also Grey is town but hopefully you all knew that. Hopkirk's town because i say so and also because of the bad read on us. and also because Twin Trap.
if Elli gets us lynched i'm not counting it because hydra. haha.
~Chara

You're not wrong on the first, I'll buy the second after hypnotoad read from Ausuka. That was godawful.

[GreyICE]

[GreyICE]

[GreyICE]

No, he specifically refuted that definition. It apparently only means "has a better chance to be scum" or something.

I don't think anyone is a "professional poker player" at age 13, but he probably watches poker players on Youtube and picked up the word.

[GreyICE]

Ah, your professional poker forum. Which is how we know you're a professional poker player.

I have some advice - stay in school.

[GreyICE]

@Grey - I'd actually love your take on the question I asked Toranaga above also about Srceenplay.

As they say, NAI. You pissed him off, he got pissed off. That's genuine. It's also not alignment indicative. That bit about you being Quick's partner was more than a touch scummy though. As is his epic vote sit on Quick (which is also not indicative of Quick's alignment - parking a vote on a buddy not being wagoned and then not pushing for their lynch is both good distancing and completely fucking useless)

If the mod PMed me and said "vig or don't vig" I'd shoot him, but there aren't many people I'd say no to a free vig on. If you want go go corral a wagon I'm game, but the one I'm on seems pretty good to me.

[GreyICE]

As they say, NAI. You pissed him off, he got pissed off. That's genuine. It's also not alignment indicative.

You don't think that him getting legit pissed about me mocking the entire concept of his town game as performed here is alignment indicative?
Why would he get legit pissed if he was scum?

1) I wish you'd respond to the entire post, this chopping posts to bits and responding to a small part makes me not want to talk to you
2) Yes, responding angrily to mockery is NAI. It should not be hard to figure out why.

[GreyICE]

It's amusing to watch the high pitched whining from scum when they're convinced someone isn't playing well, and yet is on to most of their scumteam.

[GreyICE]

Hell yeah. I've had a game where I voted three people on day 1 and my vote never left scum.

If you think it's impossible to have good reads on day 1 you might just be bad.

[GreyICE]

I admit to avoiding large games, because they're a sort of cancerous pit (this game is a perfect example) but is the meta to really just grab each other's cocks and stroke until the deadline rolls around?

I'd like to see tchill hammered in the next few pages.

[GreyICE]

but is the meta to really just grab each other's cocks and stroke until the deadline rolls around?

ya, would you care to join?

Given the age of Toranaga that's a good way to end up doing 25 to life.

[GreyICE]

Oh and I absolutely promise to hammer Quick if he's at L-1, regardless of anything. It's pro-town.

[GreyICE]

That's literally just you. Nobody else seems super unpleasant.

Screen please stop.

You're just trying to goad me.

What's your town motivation for this?

[GreyICE]

That's literally just you. Nobody else seems super unpleasant.

Screen please stop.

You're just trying to goad me.

What's your town motivation for this?

Scum me calls you unpleasant too. I want to play fun games without nasty people whether I'm scum or town.

I see. And you suppose the best way to do that is to literally make shit up, since a second after you say I'm the only one you tell someone else to stop.

Are you just trying to make my scum read on you seem personal? Because I assure you, it has everything to do with your posts, and nothing to do with your personality.

[GreyICE]

Pedit Chara why are you ignoring me D:

sorry Cheeky! i only read this page. <3
i'll find whatever you said in a second.

Whose it on? Because as far as I can tell, you're not even voting.

[GreyICE]

Hopkirk does wish the Town Gunner would shoot me.

Sorry honey, have to use the night kill for that one.

[GreyICE]

Grey: not outing it yet, i need to read. waste of a day to just speedlynch Elli's scumread when i could play the game.

pedit: beeboy, take a nap. :<

Wine improves with age. Scum reads are not wine. By the time you get this one out, the entire town is going to be too annoyed with you to ever sheep you. Then even if you are right, the best you're going to get is to whine about how right you were in the postgame (whine doesn't improve with age, unlike its homonym).

I recommend stopping this, because I have some respect for both Elli's reads and Elli's theater, and if I'm getting bored of it then other people... well, they probably are just ignoring you. This is a game of segmenting your attention to use it on the people who matter, and most people seem to have written you off because of this little sideshow.

[GreyICE]

167 posts and you finally got something right. We'll teach you yet.

[GreyICE]

chara has to give the illusion of centipede seeming town before they drop their guilty on town and have to deal with the aftermath tomorrow.
(;

Eh, sorry, centipede is like a 90-95% town read. Think about it, you have a hydra chat. Your buddy, an extremely experienced player who you respect a lot drops a cool read, but he's only half explained it and has to run. You're convinced you can't explain it as well as he can, it's too cool not to mention, but if you post it you'll wreck their awesome reveal.

I understand WHY he's doing this, I just don't think it's the right move.

[GreyICE]

look, if you're fed up with Elli's theatrics, don't lecture

me

about it.

It's against the site rules to PM him, so all I can do is give my best disapproving look from the thread.

[GreyICE]

it looks like screenplay is not gaining any traction so

VOTE: nero

a couple of his recent posts rubbed me the wrong way

Look, you're town, so I'm going to let you in on the sad thing about these large games. It takes 11 to lynch. There's probably 5 scum, leaving 16 townies. That means if six townies decide to play The Lone Ranger and go off on their own, we would be unable to lynch anyone the scum didn't want us to lynch. In point of fact,

even if the person you are voting is scum

this is true - with 5 scum, there's enough we could split our vote between scumbags and still not get anywhere.

In short, Lone Ranger votes like these rarely accomplish something, even if they happen to land on scum. So try to sell us, or try to work with us. Nero's posts legit aren't great, but something like this isn't really going to sell us. It's a weak vote, that puts no pressure on Nero (because he needs 10 more to get lynched) and doesn't really even have bullet points for him to address (and potentially make himself look scummy). It's effectively a non-post due to game size.

If this was a micro things like this can work, because there's so few people that just putting a vote out there is important, but in a game like this you aren't even 10% of a lynch wagon. So please, lets work together.

[GreyICE]

-Wagon energy is building on me because assorted (mostly scummy) people are saying they don't like me but not voting me.

I think the operating definition of "scummy" is "doesn't townread Hopkirk"

[GreyICE]

As they say, NAI. You pissed him off, he got pissed off. That's genuine. It's also not alignment indicative.

You don't think that him getting legit pissed about me mocking the entire concept of his town game as performed here is alignment indicative?
Why would he get legit pissed if he was scum?

1) I wish you'd respond to the entire post, this chopping posts to bits and responding to a small part makes me not want to talk to you
2) Yes, responding angrily to mockery is NAI. It should not be hard to figure out why.

1. The rest of your post was you saying you generically scum read the slot (clearly I do also - so...what, was I supposed to just say that?)and then saying what you would do if you had a Vig on the slot (which was really just a way of restating that you generically scum read him). What conversation/feedback were you looking for on those points?

2. You don't think the nature of what is being mocked can effect the honesty of the reply? I know when people say 'Thor you're better than this' when I'm playing scum my internal response is 'yeah, but I'm scum' not 'damn you for questioning my town game!' Now, in public I try to react the same - but that's the point, yeah? One is honest and one is flim flam.

Yeah, but Thor, I'll be honest. Your scumgame is AWFUL. It's why you're usually reduced to lurking and riding on the Thor reputation before hoping to shoot the town into a good configuration to reach endgame.

Even decent scum players convince themselves they're playing the game exactly like they're playing town. They're not scum, this is their town game. They are posting, saying, and doing exactly what they would as town. Even if it's not true, to play good scum you sell yourself that it is true. For fucks sake, look at how many scum post in the postgame to say "you got lucky, this was exactly how I play as town" even when that's blatantly not true in the slightest. They've sold themselves so well that they believe it.

Can screenplay do this? Yes. Can you do this? I don't think so. You're more like Regfan, you have an internal filter where you try and "think like a townie" then you go "wait I'm not town, so that's impossible" then you post some random stuff you think looks townie, and critique things that are objectively true. But it's not a limitation for everyone, and thus I think screenplay would react with genuine annoyance. He might choose to play it up as a piece of scum theater, but the core of anger would be real.

[GreyICE]

@Toranaga - I just asked a specific question about his most recent interaction with you.
ISO me for it - I don't have a long ISO.

@Grey - I...don't lurk as scum...?
Okay, I get your point now.

Oh cool, I was certain I remembered you as lurker scum. Although I'd call this game one of the best examples of active lurking I've ever seen. Your first 40 posts probably have less real content in them then I see in one or two random posts from you here (although if you are pulling the wool over my eyes, GJ. I don't buy it though, you're town).

Toranaga is being replaced and may no longer post.

Damn it, I hope it was something derpy. I was starting to enjoy having him around.

Pedit: Whoof. Response in a sec. That's a post alright.

[GreyICE]

Spoiler: BVV post

Look, you're town, so I'm going to let you in on the sad thing about these large games. It takes 11 to lynch. There's probably 5 scum, leaving 16 townies. That means if six townies decide to play The Lone Ranger and go off on their own, we would be unable to lynch anyone the scum didn't want us to lynch. In point of fact,

even if the person you are voting is scum

this is true - with 5 scum, there's enough we could split our vote between scumbags and still not get anywhere.

In short, Lone Ranger votes like these rarely accomplish something, even if they happen to land on scum. So try to sell us, or try to work with us. Nero's posts legit aren't great, but something like this isn't really going to sell us. It's a weak vote, that puts no pressure on Nero (because he needs 10 more to get lynched) and doesn't really even have bullet points for him to address (and potentially make himself look scummy). It's effectively a non-post due to game size.

If this was a micro things like this can work, because there's so few people that just putting a vote out there is important, but in a game like this you aren't even 10% of a lynch wagon. So please, lets work together.

I was really hoping we wouldn't resort to cases this game, but

ask and thou shall receive my friend

I just ISO'ed nero again. The issue I see with nero are that A) he's appearing to look active without really contributing anything of value to advance gamestate; B) he likes to dip in discussions that don't produce meaninful results that could then leads to reads; C) instead opting to take a lot of neutral stances then backing away from the discussion. D) There's also the over the top self-awareness, the unnecessary abrasiveness in dismissing scum reads on him, and in general being consioucs and reactive when confronted with the slightest of pressure. (but this could be a playstyle/gimmick so less emphasis on this part)

A.
1. 1105 pre-emptive discrediting while responding accusations
2. responding to ausuka's TR on creature, but offering no original opinion
3. 1258 dismisses the tchill wagon but approaches it from a wierd side angle while responding to grey, offers an unimpressive lurker isn't always scum defense, no opinions on people on the wagon

B.
1. with regard to ausuka's town read on creature
2. with regard to tchill being scum, leaving him a spot to join the wagon later if needed

C.
there are lots of exampes but the one that stood out was in 1090 when he offered an opinion but didn't pursue it any further

D.
1. I was offput by his consious effort to shake off the early SRs on him
2. A major proponent is the back and forth with toranaga with the absurd amount of OMGUS and jumping to the conclusion that tora must be scum, examples of this would be in 1134 where he discredits for seemingly non reason, and in 1248 where he mentions that scum could be sheeping tora with wagons but takes no initiative to spot any names
3. self-awareness re: beeboy 1090
4. responses to cheeky, etc

I'm not necessarily saying full length cases type of thing, I'm more saying a give and take. Like, one of the wagons around here must be on scum. Just mathematically, right? If it's 14:5 or 15:4 (I don't know how gunners are in balance) then almost certainly someone got something right at some point. Reach out to them and offer them support.

Like here, for instance. You are saying that Nero Cain is being hostile and argumentative, but that he's not offering anything of real substance. Like dismissing the Tchill wagon without examining it, either to really see if Tchill was scum, or to see if anyone voting him was scum. Or just throwing out the platitude "scum is on the wagon" without bothering to say who is scum. He's also sensitive to discussions of him without offering much to any other discussion. That's a pretty decent reason to vote him, it's true.

I'd like to toss out there that Tchill has even less substance.

Here's his ISO.

Go on, take a look. When I say he's said nothing substantial about anything in the game, it's true. Now I'd be willing to consider a Nero Cain vote, but look at what I said. If I vote NC, then I have to be able to sell townies on moving to NC as well. Otherwise scum get to pick whether they support Tchill or NC, and push the one they want to go through through. And right now I think most of the players voting TChill aren't going to move to a player who is playing like Tchill, but slightly better.

Do you think NC is a better choice for scum than Tchill?

[GreyICE]

yes, I agree that tchill is comparatively more scummy than nero, and the ISOs will faithfully reflect this, but the reason I'm less inclined to lynch tchill is largely due to the fact that it is a low information lynch because few people have had real interactions with him, namely toranaga and you. We can always lynch tchill later on if this doesn't not change but he is a small fish in a large pond

This is where we run into a philosophical difference. I don't lynch for information, I lynch to kill scum. If Tchill flips scum, then the information I've gathered is "the scumteam is down a member". That's a big disadvantage to be at on day 1. Not insurmountable, but everything gets a little bit harder for them. Easier for power roles to catch them, less members to pull gambits or counterclaim townies, just less wiggle room in general.

Plus I'm not convinced Nero Cain gives us that much information. Unless you're saying tchill is playing so badly his buddies are bussing him for town cred, at which point... eh, I'll take a scum lynch.

If the tchill wagon keeps chugging, would you consider joining? I've seen literally nothing to make me unvote him so far. I'd definitely consider helping you on NC, especially over some of the wagons I consider low quality (Centipede or Brian Skies), the fact that tchill is literally the only serious wagon happening right now does give me pause.

[GreyICE]

Huh, that's actually reasoning I follow. Not agree with, but follow.

That's what I'd expect scum to do.
I'd expect town to go 'wait a minute, this is over reaching and silly' at some stage.

Eh, confirmation bias is a hell of a drug. I've seen much more made out of much less.

[GreyICE]

THAT on the other hand, is a fucking bullshit response. You think Brigand Vvulf is the master manipulator?

Vote: Nero Cain

[GreyICE]

So Nero, tell me. Did Mastermind Brigand Vvulf intend to:

- Line up a lynch of Tchill into you or you into Tchill?
- Save his scumbuddy Tchill from death?
- Convince you to vote poor innocent townie Tchill in a fit of blatant survivalism?

Inquiring minds wish to know.

[GreyICE]

Ah, so you finally decided. So Brigand Vvulf wants to line up the lynch of a poor innocent Tchill, and then lynch poor innocent Nero Cain. Nero, if that's the case, why not vote Tchill? It's not like he's done a damn thing to give anyone in the game a reason NOT to vote him.

See, lining up lynches usually looks like "vote major wagon because it's pretty good, also player X looks scummy we should probably look at player X tomorrow". NOT doing the heavy lifting of making a case and a wagon on you. Oh yeah brother, your posts was complete horseshit.

[GreyICE]

Like brother, if you really think this, where's your vote? It's not like it's doing anything, you haven't had a vote down since the Bush administration.

But if you plop your vote on Brigand Vvulf, then people will see it in the vote count. They might even try to figure out why. While right now most of the town is skipping half of everything because this town generates more pages than is reasonable. A conversation like this? This could get passed over. But your vote in the count is forever.

And man, no one is gonna buy a Brigand Vvulf vote. That's a damn ugly one to commit to having immortalized in vote count, ain't it?

[GreyICE]

i will eat my shorts if this is scumNero.

You post naked though

[GreyICE]

your sith mind powers won't work on me Grey.

You'll take the peace-loving road of the no lynch even if it kills you.

[GreyICE]

Can you explain why?

i feel gross about gi just completely ignoring my scumread on him, hes spent a lot of time not really trying to accomplish something specific and his pushes in particular just feel like they dont actually have anything behind them in a way that i would expect from town him.

with bins, i kind of felt like the buddying on me was undeserved at the time, especially since im apparently having a scummy game according to everyone and their grandma :')

Oh okay, here. You're town, you don't really care what I have to say, you'll either come around or you won't, so I'm not going to waste my energy.

Other than that, you're complaining that I'm not engaged with the game. Well, yeah. I've repeatedly complained it's such a fucking spam fest that it is hard for me to read. My solution has been to simply abandon the idea of reading the worst offender (singular) and ignore conversations with him as well. Since then, I've had some decent reads, and I'm more than a little annoyed that you are simply dismissing the Nero thing out of hand. That being said, I don't think you give a flying fuck whether or not you're playing well, and since you're town I don't feel like getting into a fight with you.

So there we go, first and last address of it. Take the olive branch or don't, because trust me in the grand scheme of things you being wrong is no skin off my nose.

[GreyICE]

Nero Cain and Tchill are two fine people to be voting.

[GreyICE]

I'm super okay with my vote right where it is.

I'd think more people would be super okay with it too.

[GreyICE]

She went for centipede? I didn't see her specifically vote centipede. If so she voted on all the major wagons. Great break down I think you should be a little more confident in you "feelings" though. At least persue them with confidence and go from there.

Grey other than me do you have any scum reads?

You're making such a strong argument for lynching you right now.

[GreyICE]

Look dude, even if you're not reading the game AT ALL a few posts up there's a vote count. That might give you the slightest little clue what I mean.

[GreyICE]

Literally more work for you to type that paragraph out than to say "I'm voting Nero Cain" just so you can belittle me to make your point.

Point made.

The point wasn't really that I'm voting Nero Cain. It's that this 11th hour effort doesn't contain much... effort. The problem with reading you is that you haven't done anything resembling scumhunting, and while a lot of people are behind thanks to the volume of posting, it feels like you're barely trying. That leaves me trying to read you off tone and a lack of effort, and tone reads are unreliable at best.

Like dude, this progression under pressure is classic:

Regardless of Tor's alignment...he knows. I'm just willfully antagonizing him on his bad reads. Not all that interested in the tchill or Screenplay scum reads he's pushing either.

Also why me doesn't equal fry me or else nobody would say why me.

Of course it does. Always has, always will.

This "tell" has been around since we first started here. It was never that accurate to being with and is likely even less accurate now. Not really liking the strongarm.

I sorta feel like Tchill would try to be more visible as scum as opposed to lurking 30 pages. Sure, there's the possibility that he was busy IRL and rolled a scum pm but I don't feel like the case on him is strong.

vote:tchill

All this and I still can't decide whether or not Nero Cain is just bussing, because you've set yourself up to be lynched or vigged so hard I don't think if you were scum scum would be bothering to try and preserve your slot.

So yeah, uh, Nero Cain is classic scum and I'd STILL need more reason not to vote you (as I said to BVV earlier, ego sticking on one scumread day 1 in a large is counterproductive to getting scum lynched)

[GreyICE]

oh look, Grey is arguing that I'm bussing so he can have an actual reason to vote park me tomorrow.

Define "classic scum".

Classic scum - reads are all faked, and thus transitory, because when your only goal is to lie for positioning within the town, the lies start to blur together. Thus voting a "town read" when under pressure, or forgetting how you were supposed to feel about a player is an easy mistake.

[GreyICE]

Oooh, ooh, do me!

(I can't believe anyone buys this btw)

[GreyICE]

Like really, Elli, I'll give you respect as a flimflam artist, but man that list is just your actual reads.

[GreyICE]

Like really, Elli, I'll give you respect as a flimflam artist, but man that list is just your actual reads.

never said it wasn't

You're hilarious.

But sorry, this Maria wagon is not my jam.

[GreyICE]

No worries I wasn't counting on you for the 10 I need anyway <3

Quick question then, are you counting on scum? Or do you think your non-case is so bad that they'll bus her out of sheer panic? Because this lack of attempts to reach out to townies feels like you're leaving ultimate power in scum hands.

[GreyICE]

Pan/Grey/MariaR/Bins/The worst/Tchill.

STOP NAMING PEOPLE IM SLOTTING AS LYNCHBAIT TOWN

Maybe he's scum. Y'know, like, obvious.

[GreyICE]

Like Hopkirk thinks I need gambits to avoid the lynch day 1. If anything I need gambits to avoid the fucking night kill N1, I've been killed a hell of a lot more times N1 than I'll ever be lynched on day 1. Why? Because I'm a good player, and he's not.

I got my role PM in a spoiler. I responded with a joke "I think I'll avoid spoilers". The mod accepted it. There's no more or less to it. He flipped out, because he's a fucking scumfuck and it's something easy to flip out over.

All he's done since then is scumplain. I'm actually sad other people won't lynch him with me, but apparently useless shit from Elli is worth more than my actual reads.

[GreyICE]

Again, I love all this alignment specific information you've gathered about me not opening a spoiler tag.

Was the link to the scum PT outside of the spoiler tag?

[GreyICE]

I don't believe you didn't open it.

Okay man. Believe as you wish. I can't comment on anything else regarding it.

[GreyICE]

Are you allowed to play without seeing your role pm? I fail to see how that's productive from any angle.

I'm impressed you've found ANOTHER alignment non-indicative thing to comment on. I see how that's productive from one angle though.

Vote: Tchill

Nero, does your mouth write checks your vote won't cash?

[GreyICE]

Yep, I figured that. Keep up the distancing.

[GreyICE]

or I'd still be down for tchill

Keep up the lying, Nero.

[GreyICE]

Did you read the role PM now?

Can't say.

[GreyICE]

There's DEFINITELY nothing about daytalk in the rules.

1. Mafia may or may not have daychat.

Holy shit, did we just witness a genuine scumslip in the wild?

[GreyICE]

Vote Quick

I'm fine with this my dudes.

[GreyICE]

You're the worst.

[GreyICE]

Yeah to play in this game you really have to get ready to sink down to the depths of despair.

I'd ask why there's like 200 posts since I last opened this fucking disaster area, but I can't be arsed to care.

[GreyICE]

The Panopticon wagon is so obviously scumdriven it hurts me.

So I'm left between picking on Tchill or Maria. I don't even feel this is very hard.

Vote: Tchill

Not too opposed to MariaR, wouldn't vote Panopticon if you paid me after those fucking votes.

[GreyICE]

The Panopticon wagon is so obviously scumdriven it hurts me.

Ignoring the wagon, what do you think about Panopticon?

He's loud, angry, and as sick of this day as I am. Despite that, the hydra heads are trading off duties trying to stay involved in this cesspool.

Slight Scumlean
Srceen - My gut says otherwise, but I feel like this post is unnecessarily nitpicky (and I feel like that's more of something scum might do). I'm also not getting good vibes from his hardtunnel on the Quick slot. So it's probably more appropriate to put him here even though

I'm also not a fan of his immediate reaction to Thor.

Not really sure what I could be engaging or interacting with him on, so...?

You're really not sure?

THEN WHY ARE YOU VOTING HIM

Because I think he's scum.

sigh

Why do you think he's scum? Surely there is a reason or two, and that is

something you could ask him about

.

AKA: What you could be engaging or interacting with him about.

So why do you seem to think you have

nothing

to engage or interact with him about?

Like fuck, he wants to nutpunch people for this dumbshittery as bad as I do, but he's trying. No way in fuck I'm lynching that.

[GreyICE]

The Panopticon wagon is so obviously scumdriven it hurts me.

Who are the scum driving the wagon?

Hopkirk. Tchill (who never met a wagon he didn't want to be on).

I'd say "read my ISO" but I understand people who don't want to read this clusterfuck of a game.

[GreyICE]

You guys need to realize that interacting with Quick is useless

I am so, so, so far ahead of you.

[GreyICE]

Hi friends, I'd like to call something out for a second.

Centipede Syndrome(4)

~ CheekyTeeky(51), Gorkington(36), Quick(138),

Tchill13

(2)

Ausuka(3)

~ MariaR(45),

Tchill13

(68), Bins(35)

MariaR(7)

~ Centipede Syndrome(155), Gorkington(135), CheekyTeeky(95), Creature(148), Panopticon(93),

Tchill13

(70), Brian Skies(85)

Panopticon(4)

~ Brigand Vvulf(59), Hopkirk(125),

Tchill13

(81), Quick(290)

MariaR(7)

~ Centipede Syndrome(180), Brian Skies(101), Gorkington(190), Spiffeh(112), Creature(238), Brigand Vvulf(69),

Tchill13

(92)

Can we please take a second to admire this naked display of pure scumfuckery? From voting for Centipede to sheeping Centipede's meta tell on maria, with sidestops to bandwagon Ausuka and Panopticon.

[GreyICE]

Hi friends, I'd like to call something out for a second.

Centipede Syndrome(4)

~ CheekyTeeky(51), Gorkington(36), Quick(138),

Tchill13

(2)

Ausuka(3)

~ MariaR(45),

Tchill13

(68)

, Bins(35)

MariaR(7)

~ Centipede Syndrome(155), Gorkington(135), CheekyTeeky(95), Creature(148), Panopticon(93),

Tchill13

(70), Brian Skies(85)

Panopticon(4)

~ Brigand Vvulf(59), Hopkirk(125),

Tchill13

(81)

, Quick(290)

MariaR(7)

~ Centipede Syndrome(180), Brian Skies(101), Gorkington(190), Spiffeh(112), Creature(238), Brigand Vvulf(69),

Tchill13

(92)

Can we please take a second to admire this naked display of pure scumfuckery? From voting for Centipede to sheeping Centipede's meta tell on maria, with sidestops to bandwagon Ausuka and Panopticon.

Can we have names?

I TRIED TO BOLD IT BUT IT HATES ME.

FOR FUCKS SAKE IT SHOULDN'T BE THAT HARD TO SPOT

[GreyICE]

Scum aren't a dozen of little ants that automatically pile on a town wagon.

No, but one particular scumfuck is.

[GreyICE]

Like fuck, he wants to nutpunch people for this dumbshittery as bad as I do, but he's trying. No way in fuck I'm lynching that.

Their whole deal was that I was cheerleading (I wasnt and what they described wasnt even cheerleading). If they wanted to nutpunch me, they could've explained why Tchill was the best vote instead of complaining that I was voting Srceenplay instead of Hopkirk (the latter of which I had already voted and pushed).

The fact that THAT is what you got out of Panopticon's posts should make me sadder, but I guess this is the state of the American education system.

[GreyICE]

Oh right.

Thought you would point out Brigand though.

For being on a whole two wagons?

Tchill is obviously happy and ready to vote anyone who isn't him.

[GreyICE]

Sure. That's well within the realm of possibility. It's why I said to Brigand earlier that we can't go off on our own too much, because even if every townie voted scum we still couldn't get a lynch through in a game this size.

But of the two I see Tchill as very possible and more likely to be scum. And I hate Elli's "tee hee I'm too lazy to make a case". I mean what do we do if she's town tomorrow, lynch Elli? Shrug and ignore him? I hate that shit.

Tchill successfully makes the case on himself quite nicely, if nothing else:

tchill is on every major wagon at its peak including centipede. thats worth noting for later.

[GreyICE]

But of the two I see Tchill as very possible and more likely to be scum. And I hate Elli's "tee hee I'm too lazy to make a case". I mean what do we do if she's town tomorrow, lynch Elli? Shrug and ignore him? I hate that shit.

what happened to your faith that we were town, Grey? or that we're right?

if Maria flips town, go ahead and lynch us.
~Chara

We both know this is hollow as fuck.

[GreyICE]

"I think X is town and wrong" is absolutely baffling?

[GreyICE]

no go back

claim's bs

just watch

we're going to sit here and wait for anti-claim mojo to happen

AND NOTHING WILL HAPPEN

Well if Maria is town, Hopkirk is scum.

Actually Hopkirk is scum anyway, tralalala.

[GreyICE]

Yeah see the thing is, I'm actually good at mafia. So fuck off with that horseshit Elli.

[GreyICE]

Like "oh gosh, Chara's reads are better than yours".

No they're not. Blow me.

[GreyICE]

Look if they get vigged then it's a good shot. They mostly posted fluff.

[GreyICE]

Also, yeah, sorry, I know you're doing the hydra BS, but if you won't even listen to my reads then you're doing it wrong.

[GreyICE]

GreyIce is still a good vig target.

Your 'read' is a statement.

Yes Hopkirk, this is a brand new thing, and I've never interacted with you before. Where you whined that I wasn't sufficiently nice to play the game, and that therefore I was scum. And should replace out. And here's the thing, all your thoughts have been surface level and garbo, all your votes have been surface level and garbo, and I really think you're a better player than what you're playing. Your votes are shit:

VOTE: Centipede

For the super fake tone of 496/500.

I'm caught up.

Nero is clear and so is hopkirk.

What about Beeboy?

VOTE: Pan

This is some serious weaksauce. And I don't mind tossing around a vote willy-nilly, or not making a case every time, if it's done with a clear town motivation, but lord god.

I feel at least a bit good about: Toranaga, MariaR, Beeboy, Ausuka, Cheeky, Quick, Brian, Nero, Brigand (a bit), Screen (a bit)

Zone of people I need to interact with: The Worst, Tchill, Panoptican UNVOTE: panoptican, Bins, Spiffeh

Hive of potential scum and villany: Thor665, Gorkington, GreyIce, Centipede

Man Hopkirk, you feel good about Beeboy, MariaR, and Nero? Your hive of scum and villainy is Thor, Gork, me and Centipede?

Again, reads can change and evolve, but this isn't so much evolution as it is just "whatever works at the moment".

OK, so yesterday I was thinking Ausuka, cheeky, Hop, Nero, and beeboy were all in a hood.

Gork has a good point on counterwagons.
UNVOTE: Pan

Wasn't Gork part of the "hive of Scum and villainy?" Whatever, he had a good point.

I'm super fucking sad this town won't lynch your sorry ass day 1, Hopkirk.

[GreyICE]

No ur the worst

[GreyICE]

actual lynch list in no order:
1. randomidget
2. MariaR
7. CheekyTeeky
8. Hopkirk
9. Quick
17. Tchill13
19. Centipede Syndrome (Ellibereth+Chara)

If I wasn't married I'd marry you for this list.

Well I might argue about Centipede, but fuck this is a good reads list.

[GreyICE]

Or you could play fucking mafia and forget that crap

[GreyICE]

paragon title + skynet and your still useless.
wtf.

What you have to understand is the scummies are a fucking joke.

Always have been. Always will be.

[GreyICE]

Happy scum is dead. Sad more people are fucking taking it as an excuse that not giving reasons is pro-town. Bad play remains godawful.

Vote: Screenplay

How is anyone voting Bins after this post?

can't tell if i wanna vote bins more cause she's easier to lynch or a stronger scumread then gork
but regardless
VOTE: bins

That's like a free pass to day 5 at the earliest.

[GreyICE]

Like Random, you have miles of towncred of Toranaga, but try to do useful things with it.

[GreyICE]

if the people pushing for a srceen lynch could make a case with points as to why hes scum other than "lol he is" then that would probably help too.
if someone's done that already then apologies (but im pretty sure nobody has)

p-edit: i think side-by-siding a greyTowngame vs a greyScumgame with here would make the tone argument irrelevant.

Well that would mirror the amount of effort and thought Screenplay has put into the game. He just drifts through the game asking questions. I'm not really impressed by the followup on any of them. Now maybe he's just ages behind this game like he claims, it's been a shitfest of spam and stupidity, but I'm fine with the people voting it, and fine with the general wagon.

I'd rather lynch either Hopkirk or Nero Cain, but I can't get people to cooperate with me for an easy scum lynch, so w/e.

[GreyICE]

Eh, if Hopkirk is saying that, then screen isn't a buddy.

Vote: Hopkirk

[GreyICE]

grey can you talk about what happened with your progression with maria/why you were initially so against the wagon and then considering voting for it?

I thought I was pretty clear. MariaR was scummy, but I'm not going to vote for a wagon when Elli shows up and goes "I have some stupid ass meta tell that I won't be explaining." That's not a way to play mafia, it's just fuckwittery.

[GreyICE]

Hopkirk is downshifting for a vote switch to Screenplay. He's pretty flexible, and he knows there's only so many stupid townies in the game (even this one).

[GreyICE]

grey can you talk about what happened with your progression with maria/why you were initially so against the wagon and then considering voting for it?

I thought I was pretty clear. MariaR was scummy, but I'm not going to vote for a wagon when Elli shows up and goes "I have some stupid ass meta tell that I won't be explaining." That's not a way to play mafia, it's just fuckwittery.

so, you trust elli to read people correctly, but you didnt want to follow him out of principle of him not going into detail on it?
if you thought maria was scummy on top of what he was saying, isnt that kind of petty/anti wincon? especially to say that you were actively against voting the wagon initially?

I will never in a thousand years vote for a wagon where the leader of the wagon says it's because of some sekret tell and actively refuses to ever explain.

This isn't petty, it's common fucking sense. Otherwise this game degrades into a circle jerk of stupidity as no one ever explains anything and we all sit around and look like Epic Mafia. You don't need to be fucking Quick, but literally saying "here's nothing, do what I say" is never gonna happen.

[GreyICE]

Eh, there's not much point in talking with Nero Cain either.

[GreyICE]

Nah, he's not scum with Hopkirk. And Hopkirk is scum.

Nice chainsaw for Hopkirk by the way.

[GreyICE]

Check your quicktopic, Nero.

[GreyICE]

Or you could just quit mafia, and end your nine year history of shitting up games.

[GreyICE]

Sure. Mafia gunner, feel free to.

[GreyICE]

Honestly Hopkirk, I know you're scum, but you're such a pile of shit about it.

[GreyICE]

Like, sorry you're transparent. Panopticon is town, you just confirmed Screenplay is town, and I know I'm town. You're sitting here with three good wagons. You must think you have it made, even with a goon dying, right?

[GreyICE]

So I'll just keep shitting up threads and lynching you and your kind.

Town? Yeah, you do that regardless of alignment. Your boner for lynching townies is probably the most alignment neutral thing about you.

[GreyICE]

Hopkirk is employing a technique where he's trying to make a lynch look inevitable. He knows it will be much better for his appearance than a long, protracted fight where he has to justify his statements from earlier in the game.

Unfortunately for him it's really not. Hopkirk has been anything but town, and his rush to see the lynch done is a rush to cover up his behavior. We'll start going over that behavior now.

[GreyICE]

Sorry Hoppy, your bullshit is kind of obvious.

[GreyICE]

Hopkirk doesn't care who he lynches

You can see two trends from Hopkirk's early game - he doesn't care who gets lynched, and he gets very angry if someone scumreads him. For instance, here's some of his reads:

Are there any people here I shouldn't townread: Panoptican, Brigand, Brian, Centipede, Creature, Cheeky

@Ausuka: how do you feel about large games?

I feel at least a bit good about: Toranaga, MariaR, Beeboy, Ausuka, Cheeky, Quick, Brian, Nero, Brigand (a bit), Screen (a bit)

Zone of people I need to interact with: The Worst, Tchill, Panoptican UNVOTE: panoptican, Bins, Spiffeh

Hive of potential scum and villany: Thor665, Gorkington, GreyIce, Centipede

I mean note that it's practically reversed from his initial list, with no real thought. In point of fact Centipede veers between the scum pile and hard town, not based on any interactions Hopkirk has with him, but just with how strong the lynch wagon was blowing. Here's centipede's wagon:

Centipede Syndrome(6)

~ CheekyTeeky(51), Creature(71), Gorkington(41), Quick(155), Tchill13(2), Hopkirk(51)

You can clearly see him hopping on here. Yet later he was convinced to vote for Maria late based on a town read on Centipede? Lets see just how true that is:

MariaR(6) ~ Centipede Syndrome(161), CheekyTeeky(107), Creature(152), Tchill13(70), Brian Skies(94), Gorkington(151)

MariaR(7) ~ Centipede Syndrome(180), Brian Skies(101), Gorkington(190), Spiffeh(112), Creature(238), Brigand Vvulf(69), Tchill13(92)

MariaR(9) ~ Centipede Syndrome(210), Brian Skies(104), Gorkington(180), Spiffeh(100), Brigand Vvulf(73), Tchill13(90), CheekyTeeky(127), Quick(315), Hopkirk(144)

Now we finally see a Hopkirk on, late enough to hurt. And his interaction? Try to support Maria's claim and focus on it. On the other hand, we're quite happy to see him around here:

Panopticon (4)- Spiffeh, Brigand Vvulf, CheekyTeeky, Hopkirk

Panopticon is falling apart so he hops on my wagon, with room to audible onto Screenplay.

This guy is transparently scum, and he's scum with Maria

[GreyICE]

The second flavor of scumread from Hopkirk is people who scumread him. He's remarkably paranoid about people trying to lynch him, and very concerned that there's pressure building up on him - far more concerned then he ever is about townies. You can see some examples of his hypersensitivity:

Don't really get this vote.
1.) please explain where you think I'm placating in a mixture of your own words and my words (quotes of how). Most interested in why I'd push someone to say they scumread me, then 'placate' them when they aren't making the read independently.
2.) I explained my read on you and my intention and sort of answered that question. What didn't you like with my explination?
Why sketchy on Ausuka/Cheeky?

1) Because your accusations on Nero and I weren't that developed and the instant we both pushed back and engaged you, you backed off and just said we were town (or in my case just indicated that you thought I was). This is what I mean by poking and running away.
2) When did you explain your read on me? All I got from you was 'this is the reaction I was expecting so it wasn't entirely useless' which neither explains your original read of me (or my post) nor does it answer my original question of why you thought Brigand's post was good.

1.) Why does scum me push people then 'back off'? What do I gain there? Think about actual scum motivation before saying it's scummy since scum have no incentive to do that. You're scumreading style rather than motive.
Why can't town me like responses? Why do I not move on to other people when I'm happy with what I have?

2.) The initial engagement wasn't leading anywhere. Not sure why you think it's scummy to try and make it something meaningful.

Admittedly self centric, but It's painfully obvious there's a potential wagon hanging over me right now and I get the feeling Thor's waiting for it.

He called his initial vote of me a sheep.
His early townreads (Torn/Quick/BB) don't add anything since they're common.
His defence of Quick was after the quick wagon played its course.
His scum leans on me/Screen don't add anything.

661
-he's now got me as more scummy without explaining. Ignored a request to explain.
-only gives reads on people Torn asked about and adds utterly nothing to any of the reads.
-Slight reasoning given on Screen but doesn't actually move forward to vote screen. Could have potentially moved things forward but hung on me (non wagon that could bloom) instead for unclear reasons.

737- Doesn't add anything to Spiffeh's Pan read. Urges a move to me again without giving any reason (hence no reason to expect anyone to move, hence no forward momentum from Thor).

1080- An iffy reasoning to not vote Brian that doesn't really say anything about

Brian

1082- No original thoughts.


I'll admit I don't know his town meta, but it feels like he's added nothing and he's waiting for something. I don't really say any original thought/effort/proactiveness there.
I think I remember hearing Thor's name in a list of really good players back in like 2014 when I was new and while I don't know how he plays town, this isn't what I'd expect.

-Wagon energy is building on me because assorted (mostly scummy) people are saying they don't like me but not voting me. You aren't doing anything to push it. Like I said, it feels like you're waiting and hoping it builds from the undercurrent.
-I was claiming you did both from the start. As of the iso i did, you had next to noghting new.
-If you think I'm reactive you aren't reading me. Especially when you're trying to say you aren't. Although people generally find how I look at stuff strange and you might want to do some meta sometime if your problem is with my thinking style.

And of course his response to me.

Hell, he even says everyone who scumreads him is "scummy"

[GreyICE]

I mean look at his response here. He knows even if he lynches me that for a fact this will look awful for him tomorrow.

It looks awful for him today too.

[GreyICE]

I stopped pushing Centipede on I think the first game day.
Centi was never a top scumread, as per lack of me pushing.
I reevaluated on MariaR.
There's much more credible ways to bus than unvoting after a claim then revoting.
I've been saying for about 2000 posts you/Pan are my top scumreads. You're ignoring that when you say I just hopped onto you there because Pan is falling apart. There's multiple posts where I say you're number 2 for me.

Would this be post #2572 where these were your top scumreads:

Pan/Bins/MariaR- to lynch
The wost/Grey- to reread and sort
Thor/Centipede/Spiffeh- to sort post d1

Inquiring minds want to know.

[GreyICE]

See Hopkirk is operating at an enormous disadvantage here. If we lynch him, then everything I'm saying looks even worse for him. That's why he's trying hard to make my read look bad when he has what, all of two votes on him? While I just want his red flip, and don't care how I get it.

[GreyICE]

@grey

:
i) how often do you get mislynched in general?
ii) whats the difference between me getting mad at the people pushing me and hopkirk getting mad at the people pushing him?

1) never or day 1. Scum always shoot me.
2) you know you're being a dumbass. Hopkirk is scum.

[GreyICE]

can you give me 2-3 games where youve been mislynched on d1 before?

No. I don't do meta. Look it up yourself if you want that shit.

[GreyICE]

Like here: Team mafia PYP with Hoopla (called entire scum team directly), and a mini normal way back in the day.

Which beats the number of times I've been mislynched past day 1, as the only time that happened Fate claimed he'd tracked me to the night kill (I was a VT, he was town and being stupid)

[GreyICE]

You're very optimistic if you think you'll get two more townies to agree with you. You can probably snag your buddy Tchill on, but then you're SOL.

[GreyICE]

I'd prefer a Hopkirk wagon, TYVM. Even without your buddies, I do believe it can happen.

[GreyICE]

It's so easy to type that when you know I'm town.

[GreyICE]

@Grey
@Brian

I'm hardly enamored by Hopkirk's play - but you're telling me that how he got on the MariaR wagon isn't at least a clever enough of a buss to make him not a good Day 1 lynch?

As what, the ninth vote?

Fuck no.

[GreyICE]

@Thor: Hopkirk was the 9th vote on the wagon, and then proceeded to ask lots of questions about the role. If the town was buying the claim he was in the perfect position to say "lets wait a day or two and see what results come up". If the town didn't, he could claim that he was on the wagon. Frankly, this is more scum than town, and you're writing bollocks. I would like you to explain what's so town about the vote, because where I'm sitting it looks like a classic late vote for town credit. Speaking of, I would honestly say I expected a lot more from you based on past play. There's a joke about "when thor's play is bad, thor isn't town" and... it's not very funny.

For tomorrow, Tchill has shown his true colors. Vote him he shows up and posts. No attention, he lurks. He claims he's bad at town, but he's also bad at scum, and this is bad scum.

Nero Cain is one who is hard to read. Honestly, digression time. When he joined the site he was like 14. In that time I've seen many players grow from bad to good, or from bad to okay, or from bad to interesting. Inbetween being a teenager, and being an adult, Nero Cain is still the same shitter he was 9 years ago. It's like he never grew up, never learned anything, and never improved. He's one of the most anti-town forces I've ever seen. I

think

he's scum, but I'd like to emphasize he's hard to read just because he always plays like this. He claims to be angling for the achievement "Lead a lynch on groupscum". Whether or not it's true, it's telling in nine years he's never once accomplished that (and he won't in this game either, no matter what his alignment is). So... feel free to kill him, it's pro-town.

Now, we have time for a Hopkirk wagon, and we could end the day with a scum lynch. Or we could end the day with a town lynch. But what's toxic here is the people lurking until "they had no other choice". Some of those are most certainly scum. The Worst is a good choice for lurking scum, but he might be lurking town. Chickadee slot is a crapper - quick wasn't great, but his replace out felt town. He realized no one was listening to him, and quit in frustration. So town. Unfortunately Chickadee is just dumb, but don't let stupidity get in the way of a town read on that slot.

Don't let Spiffeh slide with as little as he's been contributing.

[GreyICE]

Now, moment of truth. I say there's time for a scum lynch, so lets take a stand.

[GreyICE]

1) Get a scum lynch
2) If I do get lynched by dumbasses like you, give guidance for later days. Here, I'll reproduce it so it doesn't get lost.

Now lets face it, whether or not you're town, I'm a much better player than you. Why are you trying to shut me up?

@Thor: Hopkirk was the 9th vote on the wagon, and then proceeded to ask lots of questions about the role. If the town was buying the claim he was in the perfect position to say "lets wait a day or two and see what results come up". If the town didn't, he could claim that he was on the wagon. Frankly, this is more scum than town, and you're writing bollocks. I would like you to explain what's so town about the vote, because where I'm sitting it looks like a classic late vote for town credit. Speaking of, I would honestly say I expected a lot more from you based on past play. There's a joke about "when thor's play is bad, thor isn't town" and... it's not very funny.

For tomorrow, Tchill has shown his true colors. Vote him he shows up and posts. No attention, he lurks. He claims he's bad at town, but he's also bad at scum, and this is bad scum.

Nero Cain is one who is hard to read. Honestly, digression time. When he joined the site he was like 14. In that time I've seen many players grow from bad to good, or from bad to okay, or from bad to interesting. Inbetween being a teenager, and being an adult, Nero Cain is still the same shitter he was 9 years ago. It's like he never grew up, never learned anything, and never improved. He's one of the most anti-town forces I've ever seen. I

think

he's scum, but I'd like to emphasize he's hard to read just because he always plays like this. He claims to be angling for the achievement "Lead a lynch on groupscum". Whether or not it's true, it's telling in nine years he's never once accomplished that (and he won't in this game either, no matter what his alignment is). So... feel free to kill him, it's pro-town.

Now, we have time for a Hopkirk wagon, and we could end the day with a scum lynch. Or we could end the day with a town lynch. But what's toxic here is the people lurking until "they had no other choice". Some of those are most certainly scum. The Worst is a good choice for lurking scum, but he might be lurking town. Chickadee slot is a crapper - quick wasn't great, but his replace out felt town. He realized no one was listening to him, and quit in frustration. So town. Unfortunately Chickadee is just dumb, but don't let stupidity get in the way of a town read on that slot.

Don't let Spiffeh slide with as little as he's been contributing.

[GreyICE]

Yes you.

[GreyICE]

So if you're more interested in my reads if you know I'm town, why dismissive nonsense like "What was the intention of that gorgeous wall of AtE?"

Are you okay dying tomorrow? People don't have much to read you with. Your interactions with confirmed town mean a lot, and right now you are setting yourself up as an obvious lynch. If you're scum, right on, please keep doing that. If you're town, you don't have to be bad at it.

[GreyICE]

U TOWN READING ME RIGHT?

Get vigged or lynched you useless scummy piece of shit.

[GreyICE]

Are you okay dying tomorrow?

Happier dying tomorrow than being emotionally manipulated by this shit.

What's your intention with this conversation bro?

Get a feel of your alignment. You've had approximately zero interaction all day, and I know some of the johnny come lately votes are scum. Right now I'm leaning towards yours being one of the town, and spiffeh being a better choice for scum, but for someone who is "100% anti-lurk" you've provided impressively little content in any form. You say you're townreading "most" of my wagon. Who is most?

[GreyICE]

Sorry bro, no emotional meltdown. I'm scumhunting.

You could vote Hopkirk and help get a scum lynch together. What do you say?

[GreyICE]

3353
3356

Now what's his "scum meta" that he was playing against? Noting, of course, that unless you're calling Hopkirk a moron he's well aware of his meta and can adapt his game to alter it as he chooses. Also I note you didn't give this much credence early on:

You don't townread me on meta already?

Is this serious?

[GreyICE]

Screenplay is more likely to be scum than me.

If I get lynched, don't mindlessly lynch screenplay tomorrow (like Nero Cain wants), lynch Hopkirk and tchill.

vote: screenplay

[GreyICE]

I would like to lynch from this list: Nero Cain(229), Creature(298), Hopkirk(204), Tchill13(97), CheekyTeeky(163), Chickadee(414) Beeboy(87), randomidget(190)

I'd really, REALLY like to vote one of these three:

VOTE: GreyIce Let's go. It's 2am here so glgl us. Brian put your vote on Grey instead of unvoting.

Yeah sure.

VOTE: GreyIce

VOTE: GreyICE

Why is Brian Skies town again?

[GreyICE]

Hmm.

Actually.

Vote: Cheeky

Didn't I want this yesterday? I suppose I did.

[GreyICE]

I would like to lynch from this list: Nero Cain(229), Creature(298), Hopkirk(204), Tchill13(97), CheekyTeeky(163), Chickadee(414) Beeboy(87), randomidget(190)

Not thrilled by the Nero, Tchill, Chickadee or randommidget names there.
Currently have Creature, Cheeky, and Beeboy all as various soft levels of town also.
Hopkirk is a big pile of 'meh' right now.
Is that your entire wagon at peak?
Suggests one of my reads is bad, or at least that I have a soft town lean on a scummer.

You're a winner! Well beeboy and random were floating votes places, which makes me feel slightly better about them, but you don't think that's a list of 8 townies, even with 3 scum dead, do you? I think it is not. I think it really, certainly is not. The scum lost way too much yesterday, and they can't have wanted to do that. Ausuka was in a bad position, with or without the vig (although great shooting, vig, if you exist - look up Camden to see what might be going on here).

Chickadee pushing Brigand Vvulf of all people hurts me inside.

[GreyICE]

Yeah, but Chickadee slot is town, that's a pretty solid read in my head.
We can do Hop to be lazy and just to flip him, but I'm kinda meh on it still from yesterday.
Cheeky probably isn't a bad push - might need to re-read that slot and Beeboy, the Beeboy read is assuredly stale at this stage, so might be wrong.

Hopkirk's interaction with Screenplay wasn't awful.

I'd rather do Cheeky or Nero Cain tbh.

[GreyICE]

Also I'm nowhere near as convinced on a Creature town read as you are.

TCHILL IS CURRENTLY ONLINE, AND VOTING FOR GREYICE

TCHILL PLEASE HAMMER

What's the followup on this, friends?

Because I might want to lynch Tchill as well. I know, I know, it was kind of a drum I beat day 1, but I have yet to be convinced it's a bad one.

[GreyICE]

Chickadee pushing Brigand Vvulf of all people hurts me inside.

Ok, but how do you feel about his push on easy-to-read-creature?

I think it's pretty good. I don't think Creature is as easy to read as perhaps you think.

[GreyICE]

But hey, actual thoughts from Chickadee! Tell us why creature is so easy to read.

[GreyICE]

Oh sweet! You mean we can make our first lynch wagon claim, and then if they do they die and we get another lynch, and if they don't we lynch them anyway?

That's super pro town

[GreyICE]

The wolves didn't use a power to kill Maria. That's clearly a game mechanic.

So Mulch gave us double lynches.

[GreyICE]

Wait, are you saying Maria was the anticlaim mechanic, but was vigged after claiming her role?

That's a little nutty.

[GreyICE]

Hi:

Lmao well we basically have the game solved so I don't mind being sacrificed.

Does scum!Cheeky act like this?

If cheeky defended himself, he'd be scum.
So cheeky doesn't defend himself so he's town
But if cheeky was scum cheeky would know this, so he wouldn't defend himself
But if cheeky knows that we know this cheeky would defend himself so that he doesn't look like scum who knows that scum cheeky wouldn't defend himself
...

The best solution is always to offer a better lynch candidate. Who do you think we should lynch? I'm partial to a Tchill wagon meself.

[GreyICE]

Scum who never puts in a fail card is functionally equivilent to an extra town.
Town who put in a fail card are breaking core game rules.

Screen claimed it was possible to do something it's not possible to do in game to attack Pan, likely hoping nobody would realize it couldn't be done.

It's possible he could have said 'oh, I meant I was playing online and I'd look at the role after a couple of nights'. I would have doubted that because:
- I checked on site, and he wasn't playing there.
- It sounded like he meant playing irl.
- Checking your role card irl would be a lot trickier than online due to the fact you can see people/body language and stuff.
- Talking about people getting annoyed d1 is different to not checking d1/intent to check later.

-He didn't say that when I asked him, he dodged the question (or gave an answer that didn't explain things).

Hopkirk is town by the by. And it's not like I haven't beaten the drum of a Hopkirk lynch, so this is some crow eating.

This is not only an accurate summary of the game, it's an accurate summary of why Lynch All Liars (no matter how irrelevant the lie seems) is great play.

[GreyICE]

I still don't really think that Grey is town just b/c Screen flipped scum.

nor do I. Srceenplay was bus material and almost a cop guilty.

How'd you manage to miss voting for him then?

[GreyICE]

I really hope that's not your actual reasoning for voting town over scum. Power roles exist y'know, no one is good enough not to run afoul of them. But that's probably a discussion in the postgame, once I know your alignment.

Tchill's Ausuka case makes me feel slightly better about him. Not much, but slightly.

Northsidegal: I assume Gorkington isn't actually a player dead and that's a vote count error

[GreyICE]

Chickadee, since you don't use meta much and Brigand Vvulf is new, and I have no clue what you're talking about, expound a little. Like, does he flake as scum like silverwolf? Because I hate that.

[GreyICE]

Yeah the thing about meta is that using it that way assumes the person you're using it on is beyond stupid. Play this game, not some hypothetical other game.

[GreyICE]

@BrigandVVulf: I wish to assure you there's a land where this asshattery doesn't happen. While not all games are good, minis (games limited to 13 players) are not a bunch of trust tell meta bullshit.

[GreyICE]

Beeboy wasn't on the wagon, but he wasn't on the screenplay wagon. He just sat it out.

To be honest, I'm fine with any given unreadable lurker getting lynched today, since we have vigs, and at 18 alive, even if we had 6 starting scum, we're like 15:3. And 6 starting scum would be pretty intense.

Vote: beeboy

[GreyICE]

I am fine with a beeboy lynch too

VOTE: beeboy

I'd like to think that since the scum team suffered catastrophic losses on day 1, even if there are 2+ scum left, the most optimal strategy for scum at this point is to bus with absolute conviction when presented with the opportunity, then play the lone wolf game and hope for the best.

For this reason please do NOT association hunt between living players after we get another scum flip (provided the game doesn't end then).

Hah, that's nigh on suicidal for them. Town power roles will catch a solo scumbutt. There's too many things that can clear townies and catch scum when there's few - trackers, rolecops, jailkeepers/roleblockers, cops, all of it could be out there. Us lynching scum is most likely game over today for any remaining scum, and they know that.

I mean please, scum, bus away, but I don't see them having the slightest chance of winning if we lynch scum today.

[GreyICE]

Fuck it, lets bring this Beeboy wagon home. Nero Cain is voting Cheeky, and that's raising the odds of town-Cheeky by like at least 20%.

[GreyICE]

Oh okay, AP is scum.

[GreyICE]

Sure, AP, try it. Put me on your scumlist, vote for me.

I'll string you up so fast your boots will break the sound barrier.

[GreyICE]

Actually, who are you? Tchill? Oh this is simple.

Vote: AP

Put your vote down, lets play. I feel a good bout of playtime coming on.

[GreyICE]

Oh okay, AP is scum.

You wish. Unless you think Chill would bus both his scummates like that. He was SRing both Aus & Maria. In fact, out of his last list of 3 here 3043 you're the only one I didn't include in my immediate lynch pool. Think I made a mistake there?

This is a weird defense.

Are you caught up in the game? Somehow you're very aware of your own slots play... seems like a scum thing. Like a Amished tell but BETTER.

Bins, look at the post.

He's saying Tchill wouldn't bus his buddies... and that there's two scumteams.

HMMMMMMMM

[GreyICE]

kind of feel like greyice and panopticon need to get revisited.

Grey gets a pass from me this phase for being the Srceenplay counter wagon.
I agree with you on Panop, and if Grey doesn't change I'll probably agree with you again on him sooner or later. But I'd much rather flip Bee, Hop, and probably Cheeky before a Grey flip unless new info comes to light.

Why is AP town?

Hint: He's not, but feel free to review things before answering.

[GreyICE]

More beeboy votes please.

Eh, sure, why the fuck not.

Vote: beeboy

Vig, please shoot this Anal Prolapse guy as fast as possible.

[GreyICE]

Can someone tell me why beeboy is scum?

Can someone tell me why Beeboy is a bad lynch?

No seriously the only players who have died are three scumfucks.

[GreyICE]

I forgot to add a gimmick to piss off GI Joe there. Never mind. Consider yourself pissed off.

Your village called.

[GreyICE]

Errr I am just gonna come out and claim that I shot Maria.

Oh good, we found the serial killer friends.

[GreyICE]

It's raining bullshit. From your claim.

[GreyICE]

I'm only a lynch option to people who don't look for amazing soft claiming.

1) I consider softclaiming usually a scumtell, although with the design of this game it's more null than otherwise
2) So you're only scum to people who aren't PR hunting. So... town?

[GreyICE]

Literal whatever, this wagon was fine before and is fine again. Panopticon is still town, the Bins wagon is like a dumpster fire populated entirely by dumpsters.

Vote: Cheeky

[GreyICE]

Literal whatever, this wagon was fine before and is fine again. Panopticon is still town, the Bins wagon is like a dumpster fire populated entirely by dumpsters.

Vote: Cheeky

The only reason the Cheeky wagon got so big before was people sleeping gork.

As opposed to people sheeping fucking Nero Cain?

Well one's confirmed town, one isn't. One's a good player, one isn't. Seems fine to me.

[GreyICE]

Literal whatever, this wagon was fine before and is fine again. Panopticon is still town, the Bins wagon is like a dumpster fire populated entirely by dumpsters.

Vote: Cheeky

The only reason the Cheeky wagon got so big before was people sleeping gork.

As opposed to people sheeping fucking Nero Cain?

Well one's confirmed town, one isn't. One's a good player, one isn't. Seems fine to me.

I've actually already talked about this. The cheeky wagon got pretty big. Everyone sleeping confirmed town meant it was easy for scum to slide onto the wagon unnoticed. And it to so big with no opposition, which looks to me like scum also liked the wagon.

You do realize your vote is still on the Cheeky wagon while you make this argument, right?

Like, how many scum do you think we have left? Two? Three? It's impossible to imagine more than three and this game being anything close to balanced, unless there's another faction (which I'll discount until we get a flip, and in that case who the fuck cares anything could be going on)

[GreyICE]

All I keep hearing is "Nero called me scum wah wah wah"

Really? Because I've called you shit in every game I've ever played with you. You've been shit in every game I've ever played with you.

I am pretty sure you've called me scum in every game you've ever played with me, regardless of my alignment and your alignment. And indeed that might be part of the reason for the above, because frankly, you're shit at reading people.

[GreyICE]

'kay, whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night.

[GreyICE]

less independent thought
more claims

this claim is very likely breakable now zzzzzzzz

And definitely not an exercise in wild mass bullshitting, given that Maria definitely never quoted Beeboy with a weather note?

[GreyICE]

i mean the weather thing is obvs a meme
but noone else is claiming the shot on maria so?

I mean it'll buy a day, I guess, if no one else is claiming it. It's not like I hate the cheeky lynch. I hate the Panopticon lynch, obviously.

[GreyICE]

I do believe I explained this back on day 1. TN is pissed about the same thing's that piss me off, it feels genuine, it feels like town interacting with shitheads.

This is pretty mean to do to a buddy: viewtopic.php?p=10132029#p10132029

Now, I've often said hammering scum over town is a strong scumtell, but when the wagons are 8(T) v. 6 (S), making it 8v7 is a little less awkward. And it's not like that's the first time Pan voted Screenplay either. In point of fact that part of the day was the tipping point on the vote - both of us within a few votes of lynch, where the town could swing either way. In that timeline:

Screenplay votes me (8v6)
Panopticon votes screenplay
Ausuka showed up to vote me
Centipede votes Screenplay
Gork votes Screenplay
Chickadee votes Screenplay
Cheeky switches vote from Screenplay to me
Brianskies votes me
Chickadee votes me
Spiffeh votes Screenplay
Bins votes Screenplay
I vote Screenplay
Ausuka votes Screenplay

I'd say that Panopticon voting me there guarantees that I die. Now why would I want to flip him over Cheeky? Or, for that matter, Brian or Chickadee? Or Tchill/that new gimmick shit?

No Thor, this is a bad vote and a stupid wagon.

[GreyICE]

Meanwhile Cheeky, like:

Cheeky switches vote from Screenplay to me

This moved it from L-1 Screenplay/L-2 Me to L-2 Screenplay/L-1 me

Why would we leave that alive?