Open 556: Fire and Ice (Over)
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Moonlight Mafia Scum
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Moonlight Mafia Scum
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Very similar to that, yeah.In post 14, Tr1ckster wrote:
Like in games with an SK where a big scumtell is worrying mostly about the SK?In post 11, Moonlight wrote:But seriously, I don't like how NM asked "fire or ice", scum is scum. Icouldsee him doing it on purpose to get a discussion going and I assume that votes won't count yet, sooo... yeah.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it but it's a start.-
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And whoIn post 15, Zephyrus wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if Moonlight is scum againwouldyou be surprised about and why?-
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Moonlight Mafia Scum
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I want to get a taste of how she plays as either alignment. Trouble's fine with me.
Besides, you know I don't consider experience something special by itself. In 1477, you tried to start a wagon on Nacho, which is not what you're trying to do with mastin.
I like how you've reacted to a shot in the dark though~-
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Is that a bad thing though? You either care about which part of the Mafia Tricks is in or you deliberately said something that would get the heat on yourself and want to see reactions.In post 39, Not_Mafia wrote:You seem to be trying way too hard to find scumtells in RVS
This is my reaction.-
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In that game I was part of an informed minority. Is the situation the same here?In post 42, Tr1ckster wrote:We just played a game with him as scum. You'll know if and when he's scum.-
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@Tricks: I agree with your scumreads and I can't believe that people are calling this a random voting stage when there's a 4-vote wagon.
@Not_Mafia: Your question could have easily been phrased "Are you scum?". It wasn't, which shows that you're looking at scum as two teams of scum instead of just scum. The way I see it, either you're interested in one team more than the other, or you're a Townie who wanted to give that impression to get us out of RVS ASAP.-
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Your question answers itself by showing the defense that is implied just by the phrasing of your question to Tricks. It implies "Tricks, I don't know which scum team you're on if you're scum because I'm not scum". The phrasing is superfluous and the fact that you're reacting to this can be for various reasons, towny or not.In post 62, Not_Mafia wrote:Let's say I am scum. Why would I phrase my question that way, if Trickster is scum then I'd either know which scum he is, if he was my partner, or if he wasn't, which scum team he would have to be on if he was scum.
In any case, thank you for at least getting us out of the RVS. >_>-
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Interesting posts by Pasch and Baezu. I agree with the former on everything except for barking up the wrong tree; that's not how I see it. I agree that it's a reachy case, I just don't see that as something that can't be used. I approve of the tman vote though.
As for Baezu, I think Tricks gets a bit more confident when he believes I'm Town. We've noticed we work off each other pretty well.
PEdit: Darn, there's something new every time I click submit. I guess I'll just post and be done with it. xD-
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It means what it says. Past experience shows me you get more confident when you believe I'm Town.In post 88, Tr1ckster wrote:Yes. It's quite nice to think you're town again...
But what does this mean?he believes I'm Town.
Do you think it means something else, or are you wondering how I'm reading you?-
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Hmm, there's probably little meat left in the NM wagon after Pasch's defense. I'm still not very convinced the "fire or scum" question meant nothing at all, but I guess I can just keep an eye out for NM.
I'm just as interested in tman's apathy as Pasch and Tricks, so let me aid the cause.
VOTE: tman-
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Moonlight Mafia Scum
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I don't agree that either of those are scumtells, but okay.
[url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=38643]Mewbie 1477[/post] was the first game for both and him. We were both Town, I gave the first early read list and we worked with each other a lot.-
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Moonlight Mafia Scum
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Time for me to share my early reads. In the order they have posted:
NM puzzles me. He cast a random vote on mastin and ignored his wagon for a while, until he didn't. His vote on me is a lot like Boro's on Tricks, scumreading someone for trying too hard to get things going.
Zeph hasn't caught up, so no read.
Tricks gives me the same feeling he gave me in our first game. I have seen him play scum, but never early, only after replacing in. So far this seems very much like his Town play.
Boro seems to consider reachy cases a scumtell and that's something I don't agree with, but that tells me nothing about his alignment.
tman's posts rub me the wrong way. His vote on NM seemed to be random, so he didn't really make anything of the pregame posts. After noticing the wagon, he showed apathy, which I can't say I appreciate.
midget is... strange. I've only played one game with him and it was our first, so his playstyle might have developed, but he seems much bolder and confident than I remember. Not sure what that means, but it's noteworthy.
Jasmine doesn't like wagons and I want to know why before I decide what to make of her.
Pasch's posts appeal to me, and even though I disagree with his viewpoint on reachy cases I can understand it. His defense of NM makes me townread him, because I don't see any scum motivation for him to disapprove of the wagon... unless those two are scum together. =P
Baezu seems to rely on meta and to dislike buddying, which I don't know what to make of.
4 Heads is going to be a headache (ba dum tsh!). I hate when the heads disagree like that.
To sum up: townread on Tricks and Pasch, scumread on tman, null on everyone else but I'm paying NM, midget and Jasmine extra attention.-
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Moonlight Mafia Scum
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Same thing I did the first time I played with him; I want to townread him, and at the same time I'm a bit cautious because it's strange to develop a proper read that early on someone.In post 110, The_Ascended wrote:
What do you think of him without the influence of past games?Tricks gives me the same feeling he gave me in our first game. I have seen him play scum, but never early, only after replacing in. So far this seems very much like his Town play.
I spent that first game in a cycle of "Tricks can't be scum" and "Wait, this is so unlike him, something's up". I trusted him enough to work with him, but not enough to ever stop re-examining my read (which always ended with me finding many more things I liked than things I disliked).
And from his posts it seems the feeling is mutual.
I agree with his opinion on every game being different and his question for NM.-
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Anyone that is scumreading Tricks at this point is either confusing "wanting a wagon on someone" with "wanting someone lynched", or they see something I don't. =/
I'd also like to add that general tells in this setup are particularly dangerous. For example, scumhunting is generally considered a pro-Town move, but inthissetup the scum also need to scumhunt on the side. Possibly not from the get-go, but eventually.-
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I'll play devil's advocate.In post 115, idk wrote:Tman's not liking the Not_Mafia wagon but keeping his vote there is really annoying, and I do not like his most recent post, specifically his reasoning for keeping his vote on N_M. If you do not think someone is suspicious, then there is no need to keep your vote on them. There's no rule saying you have to have a vote on someone at all times. You simply could've unvoted and left it at that.
Not using one's vote is bad from my point of view. When I unvote, it's very temporary, I always want to be voting for someone because it's the one thing I cannot be lying about.[/quote]
Can you expand on that thought? I have them as a townread at the moment, show me where you see possible scum motivation.In post 120, Randomnamechange wrote:The_Ascended makes a good post, but I can see this post coming from scum.-
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@Tricks:
Bolded the important part.In post 0, LlamaFluff wrote:5) No quoting any private communication or PMs, including your role PM. No using invisible text,spoiler tags, or encryption codes. Violation of this rule will result in a modkill.-
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It happened on the very first game we played in and it has been happening ever since. We have different styles and they seem to compliment each other when we're Town together, so why wouldn't I be trying to work with him when I'm townreading him?In post 139, Slainte Mhath wrote:
I don't like the way you keep defending tricks. You guys seem to have some unwritten communication going on that's setting off alarm bells. Either you're mafia together or one of you is "tricking" the other and you know my opinion on which of you it isIn post 104, Moonlight wrote:Time for me to share my early reads. In the order they have posted:
NM puzzles me. He cast a random vote on mastin and ignored his wagon for a while, until he didn't. His vote on me is a lot like Boro's on Tricks, scumreading someone for trying too hard to get things going.
Zeph hasn't caught up, so no read.
Tricks gives me the same feeling he gave me in our first game. I have seen him play scum, but never early, only after replacing in. So far this seems very much like his Town play.
Boro seems to consider reachy cases a scumtell and that's something I don't agree with, but that tells me nothing about his alignment.
tman's posts rub me the wrong way. His vote on NM seemed to be random, so he didn't really make anything of the pregame posts. After noticing the wagon, he showed apathy, which I can't say I appreciate.
midget is... strange. I've only played one game with him and it was our first, so his playstyle might have developed, but he seems much bolder and confident than I remember. Not sure what that means, but it's noteworthy.
Jasmine doesn't like wagons and I want to know why before I decide what to make of her.
Pasch's posts appeal to me, and even though I disagree with his viewpoint on reachy cases I can understand it. His defense of NM makes me townread him, because I don't see any scum motivation for him to disapprove of the wagon... unless those two are scum together. =P
Baezu seems to rely on meta and to dislike buddying, which I don't know what to make of.
4 Heads is going to be a headache (ba dum tsh!). I hate when the heads disagree like that.
To sum up: townread on Tricks and Pasch, scumread on tman, null on everyone else but I'm paying NM, midget and Jasmine extra attention.
Us being scum together is an interesting assumption and I want to see who is bold enough to go after it. *beckons with his finger*-
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Slainte = Baezu, just thought I'd save people the trouble of looking up the heads of that hydra.
I am not ruling out that Tricks could be emulating his Town meta to a T just for the sake of earning my townread, I just don't believe that at the moment. I'm paying more attention to his interaction withothersand those look genuine from where I'm standing.-
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I have mixed feelings about going after lurkers. The nature of the setup and the plurality lynch rule give scum even more reason to not want to stand out, but at the same time it's something scum might use and call it "scumhunting". >_>
Baezu's train of thought is something that crossed my mind though (scum not being in the active players at the moment), so I want to see what she does about it.-
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Am I scum then? Make your case on me.In post 186, BoroPhil wrote:
well yeah?In post 185, Moonlight wrote:Boro, can you please explain why using "something rubbish" is a scumtell? Walk me through what's going through your head when you encounter something like that.
If, for example, I vote you now and my provided reasoning is that football/soccer avatars are only used by scum, does that mean I'm scum?
VOTE: BoroPhil-
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Question for Tricks: does Boro's play this game remind you of the same play it reminds me? It's almost like history repeating itself in a way.
To everyone else: Why is building a case based on bad reasoning a scumtell? Are you scumhunting or are you just after players whose play you disagree with? Are you just hoping that those players just happen to be scum?
You don't always catch scum for the right reasons.-
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I'm more interested in why you want me to stop. Why does my issue with Boro concern you? Are you threatened by it?In post 199, BoroPhil wrote:And now acknowledging they were in fact building a case.
Also Moonlight, please do not ask blatantly leading questions to push the narrative that you want-
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Youreallydon't know me, do you? I keep reexamining my reads. They're never solid. Tricks is no exception, therewillbe moments when I'll ask myself if he's scum. You are treating me as if I'm going to townread him for the duration of the game.
I perceive that as a threat to you *points at NM and Boro*.
PEdit: Not sure how I misattributed that, it was by NM and I wanted to reply to him, not sure what happened there.-
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If I hadn't phrased my question that way, he might not have known what I'm yammering about. I'm refering to a very specific play in a very specific game.
I could have just said "Does this remind of you what it reminds of me", but I like to be more direct than that.
And because I like to be direct, I find it interesting how you and Boro are in tune and yet you haven't exchanged a word with each other and aren't trying to establish a read on each other.-
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Yup, we are.In post 218, Tr1ckster wrote:
I believe it does. We are thinking of the same player, are we not?In post 196, Moonlight wrote:Question for Tricks: does Boro's play this game remind you of the same play it reminds me? It's almost like history repeating itself in a way.
I just want to say I think it's very interesting his play changed from last game to this...
Or did it really change? I don't know.
I certainly hope this one doesn't end in him getting reported, though. Maybe we should make him read the game? You know, the whole thing about knowing history so you don't repeat it?
I think NM is.. Interesting. Very interesting. For defending him so blatantly.
As for whether it changed, I think so. In the previous game he got aggressive with legit reasoning. Here he is making a mountain out of a molehill, the irony being that he seems to believe that about you while considering it a scumtell.
I believe Boro is smarter than actually believing that a vote can only mean a desire to lynch someone, and I'm toying with the idea that he saw you as a threat or mislynch fodder.
You never said you did, but that's the vibe I've been getting since 194. I could be wrong and I'm not afraid to take that chance.Not_Mafia wrote:@Moonlight I liked Yuriko's entry. And can you quote where you see me having an issue with you defending Trickster, I'm not completely sure what you mean there.-
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I don't know what to make of NM. He seems to understand my point of view now at least, but I'm perplexed as to why this wasn't obvious to him before.In post 223, Tr1ckster wrote:
I don't know, but I don't see how it can be town motivated. Assuming he's scum, how do you read NM?In post 221, Moonlight wrote:Yup, we are.
As for whether it changed, I think so. In the previous game he got aggressive with legit reasoning. Here he is making a mountain out of a molehill, the irony being that he seems to believe that about you while considering it a scumtell.
I believe Boro is smarter than actually believing that a vote can only mean a desire to lynch someone, and I'm toying with the idea that he saw you as a threat or mislynch fodder.
Should we pretend that buddying only happens by scum or something? It won't make it true, people are social animals and believe it or not, when two people townread each other, it's only natural for them to try to work together. >_<
Explain how they're scummy. I've liked their posts a lot and I appreciate that they present their thoughts in that form.In post 224, Baezu wrote:
Exactly! Finally, someone is seeing the light.In post 180, Not_Mafia wrote:And Trickster that doesn't change the fact that you misrepped his case
Also four heads is acting scummy as fuck and veiling it as a 4 person hydra
PEdit: Well, looks like Baezu won't be someone anyone can work with then. =/-
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I said exactly that in 144.In post 227, Baezu wrote:Moon if I was trickster and I have played games with you where we were buddies as townies and I rolled scum this game I would continue playing the same way with you so that you wouldn't suspect anything. Doesn't this seem super plausible and likely?
Why the fuck is everyone treating me as if I'm naive? Holy shit.-
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I'm living proof that you're wrong.In post 234, Baezu wrote:Yes! I read your game that you referenced me to where you and moon were VTs. You started that game with an RQS as well. And say what you will, PEOPLE DONT CHANGE. At least not so quickly. I've lived on this planet for 36 years and there's one thing I've learned people just don't change that quickly.
There are things that don't change, sure. Certain things do and they can make a world of difference.
That game you're referring to, I felt like a completely different player by the end of it when comparing myself to how I was when I started it. I was witnessing a change I couldn't even understand the reason behind, so don't tell me that people don't change in Mafia. >_>-
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@Tricks: I agree, and the fact that you townread her attack makes me more confident about my read on you.
I'll explain for those who have trouble understanding how I think.
In this setup, the one good thing for Town is that scum donothave that much information. Baezu is going to look bad if Tricks flips Town at any point, whereas if she was scum she wouldn't even know his alignment unless she was scum with him.
Which leads to the question: "Why are you after Boro (and to a degree NM), then? Wouldn't they look bad?". Yeah, but Boro's timing looks strange.
His 96 came after NM had reacted to the wagon. In 98, he says Tricks has been buddying me, while ignoring that he indirectly buddied NM himself with that vote. He also called misrep on something that looks like a misunderstanding and has been continually reminding us that the case on NM is rubbish.
I see a strange association there and I might be reading too much into it, but it's at least something worth pressing on in my opinion.-
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Sure, let's fucking lynch anyone we don't like instead of lynching who we believe is more likely to flip scum.
First Boro sees "scumminess" in things he doesn't like, now Zeph. I'm starting to doubt my read on Boro as a result, because I didn't want to think of the possibility that a Townie would want to lynch someone just out of dislike, but I guess I have to consider it unless both Boro and Zeph are scum.
What do I even do in this situation... I'm totally against policy lynches but this is starting to get insane.
I'll sleep on it, but not before begging any Townie that reads this to carefully reconsider what separates Town and scum. Forget tells, forget what you think you know, break the game down to its very core and understand. I don't give a shit if you read this as me using AtE to earn towncred and whatnot, that's fine. Just don't throw the game, please.-
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I am saying that when you encounter a play you don't like or don't understand, you make no effort to try to look at it from a Town perspective, you simply toss it in a scum pile.In post 267, BoroPhil wrote:Are you saying I'm voting for Tricky because I don't like him, rather than because I think he is scummy?
This is dangerous in my opinion, because you're unlikely to work with anyone you disagree with, and I need players that disagree with me.
Basically, I don't find you necessarily scummy, I just find your approach very anti-Town and I lack a proper scum read, so I'm waiting to form one on you.
You're asking how votes can be used in other ways. Haven't you ever thought of voting someone just to get a read on his reaction?-
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I don't find anyone particularly scummy right now. If I follow your logic, I shouldn't be voting, but then I wouldn't be using the one thing everyone else can trust my slot about.In post 273, BoroPhil wrote:so you don't find me scummy, but you are voting for me? how is that IN ANY WAY pro-town?
I understand that, but just becauseIn post 274, BoroPhil wrote:you'll find I'm pretty straight up. If I vote for someone, it's because they are scummy. I don't mess around and play games.youdon't play such games it doesn't mean that anyone else who does is scum. That's my whole point.
I haven't posted my reads for a while, they keep changing mostly due to how chaotic the situation is at the moment.
I'm still townreading Tricks, though his defense of Zeph got me curious and thinking thathe is scum, Zeph is a probable buddy.if
The_Ascended haven't posted for a while, but I'm still townreading them.
I like 4 Heads a lot and I don't understand why they're frustrating to some players. Even when they disagree they present their thoughts in a manner that looks natural for 4 players in 1 slot. Scumreading them because one believes they're fabricating their disputes, I could understand, but I still townread them.
I'm also inclined to townread Baezu for how boldly she said she'd park her vote on Tricks.
That's 4 slots I'm townreading, leaving me with 7 players that I believe have the 4 scum in them. As long as I can work with either of my townreads, I'm confident we can lynch scum today.-
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- Posts: 1462
- Joined: February 8, 2014
- Location: Greece
(1) Not_Mafia - Finglove
(0) randomidget -
(0) The_Ascended -
(0) idk -
(0) YurikoJasmine -
(0) Moonlight -
(2) Tr1ckster - BoroPhil, Baezu
(2) 4 Heads of Insanity - randomidget, tman2nd
(1) tman2nd - idk
(3) Finglove - YurikoJasmine, Tr1ckster, Not_Mafia
(0) Baezu -
(1) BoroPhil - Moonlight
(1) Zephyrus - 4 Heads of Insanity
(2) Not voting - The_Ascended, Zephyrus
I believe this is correct, I'm sorry if I've miscounted anywhere.
@Tricks and NM: Why have you parked your vote on someone who is V/LA? -_- Jasmine too, but she's inactive, so she might have an excuse.-
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Moonlight Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: February 8, 2014
- Location: Greece
Tricks just went after someone I was considering voting and I made that somewhat obvious with 277. There's such a fine line between minds thinking alike and him leading me on.
I like Baezu's post, but I don't understand why NM and Boro are an unlikely pair. Can you explain that?
As for Boro's and Zeph's opening about me, I'm not reading too much into it. If it was some other player, I'd be wondering if one of them is distancing from his buddy, but I know the answer to that.
I'm going to indulge Tricks for now and ignore the paranoia. RM leaves much to be desired.
VOTE: randomidget-
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Moonlight Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: February 8, 2014
- Location: Greece
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Moonlight Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: February 8, 2014
- Location: Greece
Who would that be in your opinion? The one you're voting for? I find it hard to scumread him based on just two posts, sorry.In post 291, Not_Mafia wrote:A few people need to stop theorying scumteams so early, it just gets conf bias muddying your reads. It's d1, just lynch the scummiest player.-
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Moonlight Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: February 8, 2014
- Location: Greece
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Moonlight Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: February 8, 2014
- Location: Greece