Open 579: Pick Your (Chocolate) Power -- Game Over

[farside22]

Droog: why did you switch your rvs vote?

[farside22]

I wouldn't put it past clever scum to double up and have the 3rd scum pick a separate number. It might be something I'd do out of audacity. Agree on everything else though.

I want to note however that there are definitely picks that scum would find very lucrative. Among them:
1-shot Vig
Roleblocker (just block everyone at the top of the draft)
Jailkeeper
Vengeful/Night3Vig

Since JK and RB are paired up with Tracker and Doc, not much alignment indicative in that. However, 1-shot Vig/1-shot PGO, along with Vengeful/Night3Vig are HIGHLY useful scum roles.

What this means is if you were near the top and you went for either of the above slots and you DIDN'T get them, there is likely scum above you. Be sure to factor this in.

I think you and I think of things differently. I had thought of taking vig to keep it out of scum hands. But on the other side if scum didn't get the first pick and I had first pick I'd think of choosing pGo because scum may kill me and I could kill them back.
Vengeful I imagine IAM when he was scum and targeted the most useful role for the town to die.

PGO is a terrible role because you can't predict for sure when you'll get targeted, so let's get that off the table. 1-shot vig has a much higher chance of hitting town than not.

I'd actually be totally cool with lynching a claimed vengeful if we all vote on who they shoot if they end up being town. Vengeful and vig by themselves are much more likely to hit town than not and if anything are a detriment to town.

When it comes to vig, if the vig agreed to shoot someone the crowd decides on, sure I'd be fine with keeping them alive.

Basically my point is, something like Cop is 10x more useful to town than any killing roles are, and I have a problem with any uncontrolled vigs because if they're scum it's a free pass to kill off a townie they happened to be 'scumreading'.

Out of curiosity with the research done did you or hayate look to see if the vig when town did shoot?
This is where I personally love to wifom scum with the role out there.
See the player picked vig or pGo may or may not be scum. You might say the player waits to shot for a night. Hypothetically he really picked pGo and may or may not activate the ability tonight.

What I have done proposing the above is, if the player is town, give the player an extra day to maybe live because the scum now have to decide is it worth shooting that player and although i don't practice it myself, more info can be had after more then one game day.
You have people that are dead and flipped (should be more then 1).
If the player is scum I forced him from holding back the shot for more analysis. PGo in scum hands is unpredictable though.


Droog: do you think an rvs wagon gives more information? If so what?

[farside22]

We do think of things differently, but that's good because I think you're on to something but I can't for the life of me understand it.

Can you rephrase your proposal for the vig please? Suppose someone claims 1-shot vig. What are you suggesting?

Also, no, I didn't look into that but I might when I have more time. Hayate's research is a bit more in depth than mine of course (probably does have more time) so I'll see if he wants to.

I was saying the player who picked vig hold off to shot till night 2.
Town or scum with the ability who hold off helps town either way.
Don't forget the 1 shot could pick pGo too.

Amy

, what are your reads? What's your read on me? If scum, why didn't you vote me?

It's page two, I'm not going to look for any serious reads when there are none. If I thought you were scum then I would've voted for you.

So what about town reads outside Dino?


Hayate: I'm referring to if the 1 shot vig held back the shot or not.

[farside22]

Honestly I don't think Flubber is scum because of his post about being mad. Even if he was exaggerating his anger, I don't think that's really telling.

I'm sure Mathdino is town here, and I feel like Droog's town. I played with these guys before and their play feels very much the same here. I can't say the same for wgeurts until he posts more, but I don't take his RVS vote as scummy. The game is only 3 pages in, we're sure to get some people still coming in RVS voting.

Why would exaggerated anger read town?
How many games you played with droog? What was his alignment?

No, I'm saying that if the town decides to lynch me even though I am town, I'd rather it not be at LYLO.

Reads? Not really. I don't get reads this early into Day 1. If you wish to confirm that, you can check out my other games- that's what I pretty much always say regardless of alignment.
And if I seem defensive, please note my 1 town win and 6 town losses.

Do you have foot and mouth disease where you say the worst things that read scummy?

Have you played scum here? If so where you lynched easy as well?

[farside22]

RVS tells me who likes wagons
Who's comfortable with sheeting
Which is more useful than not

Sheeping is null. I've seen it from town and scum. Zor's game you just played should tell you that.
Why do you think it's useful?

[farside22]

Honestly I don't think Flubber is scum because of his post about being mad. Even if he was exaggerating his anger, I don't think that's really telling.

I'm sure Mathdino is town here, and I feel like Droog's town. I played with these guys before and their play feels very much the same here. I can't say the same for wgeurts until he posts more, but I don't take his RVS vote as scummy. The game is only 3 pages in, we're sure to get some people still coming in RVS voting.

Why would exaggerated anger read town?
How many games you played with droog? What was his alignment?

No, I'm saying that if the town decides to lynch me even though I am town, I'd rather it not be at LYLO.

Reads? Not really. I don't get reads this early into Day 1. If you wish to confirm that, you can check out my other games- that's what I pretty much always say regardless of alignment.
And if I seem defensive, please note my 1 town win and 6 town losses.

Do you have foot and mouth disease where you say the worst things that read scummy?

Have you played scum here? If so where you lynched easy as well?

I'm not saying it reads town, I'm saying it doesn't read scum. I've played one previous game (o574) with Droog where he was town. He hard pushed an early wagon on randomidget in that game. Dino and wgeurts were also in that game.

If it doesn't read scum or town then null. My question still has merit if you think it's null why would or have you seen town exaggerate feelings?

Tbh I'd probably be tunneling Venrob by now for every word he says if I didn't believe him on his meta, haha.

droog is town. Like, incredibly town.

Alchemist, want an explanation for the vote. Is it because wgeurts usually hates RVS? I don't see that as a tell either way.

I want you to explain the town read. I only know droog from replacing me in another game.

Going with my gut currently

vote: Alchemist

[farside22]

On droog: 37 and 61 show what look like fairly genuine town perspectives, and 61 is just a good post in general, using RVS to the fullest.

On Alchemist and Flubber: Hmm. While I agree that Alchemist's defence of Flubber may be

incorrect

, I'm finding it difficult to call it scummy. Consider: Saying it's null "Even if he exaggerated his anger" doesn't really have much scum motivation if Flubber's town, and if they're both scum I find it difficult to believe Alchemist would be a scumbuddy apologist.
If anything, what's worse about Alch's ISO is the naked vote on wgeurts, but I'm waiting on an explanation for that one.

Edit: Okay, so what was the point of that statement I quoted?

If you're scum then this is a nice way early on to start lining up mislynches for later on in the game.

I find it odd he is stepping in for flubbernugget. It pings me as insincere.
but so far out of everything said thus far it is my first ping.
What do you think about my suggestion of shooting night 2?

See the issue I'm having with Amy is the underhandedness of the statement "If you're scum then this is a nice way early on to start lining up mislynches for later on in the game" without even scumreading me. It's like "Okay, that action is potentially beneficial for scum". Well that's great. So are most actions. She's throwing out reasons to be suspicious of the theory debate without any conviction.
Also, while farside provides examples and from what I understood, good reasoning on why some assumptions I made were wrong, Amy's reads more like "Well I dunno, PGO

could

be useful, right?" which seems a bit off.

I'm not throwing out reasons to be suspicious. While I dislike theory debates, they're pretty null to me. And I can throw out statements without said statement automatically being attached to a read going one way or the other. It doesn't signify a lack of conviction. I'm not going to make a non-RVS vote for someone for one post.

So I don't really have a good history, everyone always reads me as scum.

Did I miss someone asking for your scum history or are you just throwing this out here?
Because if this is out of the blue then saying 'I'm always scumread' is sure a great way to get people off your back for a while.

nobody asked
does this indicate scum?

I officially feel invisible.
I asked Venrob after his comment about how he plays as scum.

Amy: I asked about any town reads or if anything a feeling you have about anyone thus far other then dino.

[farside22]

Ooooo aneninen gave me another reason I hadn't thought about. If scum have the JK or RB and the vig is town letting the vig decide to shoot and saving the shot or saying vig you decide to shot between X and Y is another thing.

That's if the vig is town and the player picked vig.

Damn my lets wifom scum meter is now in overdrive thinking of multiple viable's

[farside22]

You just got me thinking about what if we voted on who the vig should shoot and have them remain silent, but then I realised that if the scum have JK, and they probably do given history, they could easily just jail the player we want vig to shoot. :/

Scratch the entire vig discussion then. However, I still think all this applies to vengeful. If someone claims vengeful, we should immediately start voting on who they should shoot IMO. And... scream at them if they don't shoot town's choice?

hmmmm

con: town could be the vengeful and the agreed upon player is town. That means 2 town dead Bu day 1
Pro: Scum could be the target or the vengeful.


I'd want to feel really, really sure of my reads to take a risk. I have seen both town and scum vengeful. I don't want to give too much away if vengeful was picked on what happened. But I have a thought if you want to humor me for a moment.

[farside22]

And don't forget our kitty! He's sleeping next to the keyboard which is good, because he's sleeping not NO the keyboard. And everyone knows if I didn't post anything about him that would be scummy.

Not disparaging the kitty in any way, but this feels trust-telly to me. Don't remember if you've mentioned him in my other games you've been in.

What?

How is that a trust tell if he didn't mention it in another game?

[farside22]

@Mathdino: The wgeurts vote was just an attempt in getting him to post more so I might be able to get a read on him. I don't mind keeping it there until he comes back though. P.S. I had no idea wgeurts hates RVS. He openly participates in it.

@Farside: There's no scum motivation for flubber faking his emotion. Some people just exagerate things when they talk because that's who they are. There are plentynof people who say, "I was so fucking pissed," when really they were only moderately annoyed. Being mad over losing out on the draft is null, and exaggerating any emotion about it has no scum motivation because it won't get him anywhere.

TL;DR I think his post shows his personality, not scumminess.

Your talking to a player that speaks highly emotional and understands it more then most.
Fake reads and emotion = fake
Not hey I don't mean it but it's there. Also last time I dealt with Flubbernugget I don't recall emotion at all from him. Being pissed about not getting an someone picking your number and ending up low is natural. Being fake pissed is weird and unnecessary.

[farside22]

@davesaz: Also, as trust tells are banned, you might wanna read up to make sure and contact the mod and not us.

@farside: It's an extra lynch if we lynch town. Lynches are good, especially since leashing the vengeful essentially gives us a redo if they flip town. 2 town COULD be dead but we face that danger with any lynch.
And if the venge is scum then it's just a waste of time.

Here's my idea:

If we L-1 someone and they claim vengeful, we agree to lynch that person no matter what because leaving them alive puts them in the scum's hands and we don't want to get into a NK WIFOM discussion of why they're alive the next day. At that point, we start voting on who they should vengekill. If you're a town vengeful, you need to know that giving town discussion on kills is absolutely best for town.

@Alchemist: Pressure vote is meh, wgeurts could just not be online. Don't like it.

I'm thinking crazy for a moment.


I'm hypothetically a vengeful townie. I would target Alchemist if I was lynched

[farside22]

Then hypothetically I'd argue with you the entire day about why you should go with the majority vote.

That said, as of the wgeurts vote explanation, current scumreads are Amy, Alch, and Flubber (though I'm iffy on the latter 2 both being scum), so I wouldn't cry over it.

Edit: Alchemist, please give your top scumread or any reads if existent. The fact is that you changed your RVS vote to someone as pressure when there was no indication that he

wouldn't

come back, all the while RVS votes are pretty much for reactions in the first place.

I'm stubborn. You can argue with me but unless you can convince me I'm wrong and by your list you don't disagree I'll be keeping my vote there for now.

[farside22]

Someone asked me the point of my hypothetical vengeful. I was testing a theory I have but it may be unuseful because I'm low in the pecking order.

Someone high up the scale do a I'm a hypothetical Vengeful and would target (insert player name).
I'm just testing a theory here.

[farside22]

I'd like farside and Hayate to be town but I'm unsure on them.

It's a statement of wishful thinking based on player affinity, not confirmational bias.

I love you too.

No worries from me.

I was hoping someone would take my offer. Hopefully it can be revisited later.


Flubber: no way is amy a thor alt. I've played with both SG and thor...amy only with ongoing game. Both SG and thor are cunning and thoughtful when communicating. All I can say about amy is she is not an alt.


Alchemist: why are you asking others about post droog's post?

[farside22]

Wgert: I have no clue what you are saying.

Ebwop:

Dino: why did you link wgert post history?

[farside22]

My main point is anen managed to slip onto a wagon and claimed some soft-meta on her with an ongoing game. That meta was wrong and I really don't want this to happen. Anyway, I don't have a lot to go off and yes my scum find is slightly non-serious. We need to however get discussion going as it's stalled around page 6. The scum will of cause lurk in this as it benefits them. So yeah, my vote is basicaly summed up as "Anen seems oportunistic". It's day 1 and we need discussion, get it going.

I didn't see anen using any meta when he put a case on amy.

[farside22]

i have thoughts about this but im too exhausted rn
people asked me some questions and
there were some good points raised re: why scum would ask setup theory
that i honestly hadnt considered

when i come back if i miss something please point me toward it

I'm not sure where you stand on players this game or why.

Spoiler: Venrob

Ok, so i've done a bit of a skim read so far. I am SOOO pissed and surprised that 4 got the top pick. I mean 1235 all got doubled up, but 4 of all numbers got top.... 4 is always the one that everyone chooses.

Given I hav e a history with this setup... and not a good one... I just hope this game doesn't go to shit for town like it always does.

For reference purposes, Open 472: Town of Lottery Addicts is the only game i have completed of this setup. I also failed to mod it once, and played a game which got abandoned once. Bad luck. In Open 472, I was one of the 4 people who picked the number 4- and had second to last place. I still didn't end up VT though- I got vengeful. But town didn't believe my roleclaim, and believed scum at lylo.... So hopefully I don't make it to lylo, because whenever I do town loses. Unless I become confirmed town before lylo, then I'm fine with living

Anyway, for rvs vote.... why not VOTE: Siveure DtTrikyp


Also for number theory, I have found that picking a semi-high number generally results in high draft order, because everyone doubles up below you. That is why I picked a high number, and I presume same goes for siv.

Either way, I hope this game doesn't go to shit because of me like every game I play does.

No, I'm saying that if the town decides to lynch me even though I am town, I'd rather it not be at LYLO.

Reads? Not really. I don't get reads this early into Day 1. If you wish to confirm that, you can check out my other games- that's what I pretty much always say regardless of alignment.
And if I seem defensive, please note my 1 town win and 6 town losses.

I have played scum, 2 wins 3 losses as scum compared to 1 win 6 losses as town. My first game here was a scum game, and it got to lylo (2 scum 3 town.) The only reason I won is that one of the townies had a scum read on the other 2 and a town read on me and my partner. If not for that, I would have been lynched really early. I think everyone was giving me benefit of the noob considering it was my first game on-site. I played really badly... but still won.

In my other game i won as scum, I got dayvigged on day 1. My partner, solo, went on to win the game.

So I don't really have any great scum accomplishments. And my 1 town win was a masons and mafia setup, which honestly seems easy to win for town considering the mafia kept killing themselves XD

So I don't really have a good history, everyone always reads me as scum.

If you want to look for yourself, all completed games are on my wiki.

UNVOTE:
Still had an rvs vote out.

OK, so i've caught up a bit... and honestly the only thing I'm getting as far as reads is mathdino seems townie to me. I don't have the time right now to make a big post or anysuch or to read into peoples posts and analyze, but I will be back later today for a better read of the game. Just got up, haven't even had breakfast yet but wanted to make a post while I had a minute.

So we have:
Games go to shit when you're in them
Everyone reads you scum
You have a terrible record
Don't have time right now

We're gonna need to see a lot more than a bunch of AtE, or this is going to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

This is a good catch. I feel like he maybe using the aTe and may just lurk it out.
Someone to keep an eye on.

Ane: have you played with amy? If not I'm going to say one thing only. Not all newbs are the same.
Ask her if she played elsewhere.
I'm going to ask you, do you think that just because someone just started at ms they are a noob?

[farside22]

@alchemist:
I asked you a question about this

Conclusion. Amy is most probably scum. She speculates about "what would be useful for the scum?" things all the time, especially during that Vigilante/Vengeful/Idunnowhat part of the chat. Other reasons are shown in my catch-up.

scum have daytalk

Someone help me understand what the relevence of Daytalk is here. Ane knew what your point was but I don't see it and what that has to do with what you quoted.

Why did you ask others and not droog about this?

[farside22]

No, I haven't played with her.
As I've said before, I find her scummy regardless of her experience. Thats'why I haven't asked her about other forums. But okay,

@Amy, have you ever played Mafia on another site or IRL?

Was the reason you found her scummy only because of the lack of hard claim?
Sorry if you said something earlier.
It's almost 6am and my brain is mush.

[farside22]

I'm definently going to have to make notes for this game.

[farside22]

Mod: v/la till Friday

[farside22]

Catch up with the game will happen tomorrow, sorry for the delay.

[farside22]

I'm making notes here as I reread and catch up.

I'm not sure why alchemist felt the need to make a comment about flugger's comments as null.

Amy: I asked ven about his history, what is your read on him?

Dino: why is the reaction weird

Alchemist [ url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p6402026]dont get this[/url] people don't react just because of a vote.

Dave's post 117 is something to keep in mind to see if the pattern repeats.

Droog: why are you voting here for amy especially as Dino is voting for her as well? You think dino maybe scum for reason's I disagree with and he voted his scum buddy?

Wgerts: what happened between this post:

Ok droog and mathdino are town,
I'd like alchemist to do be so as well however I'm unsure on him. Also, alchemist screw you for making any negative comments on you look like WIFOM .
Anyway, I'll make a proper reads list and explanation in a sec.

And this post:

I need to reread and take a really good look.

Why the reread so early?

Amy: I asked about any town reads or if anything a feeling you have about anyone thus far other then dino.

My top townreads are you and droog.

Why?

VOTE: amy

Give us a vote pls.

I really hate this vote, looks hella opportunitic

That's flybber's personality wgertus

I am not confident enough in this wagon.
If it hits l-1 I will Unvote. O

Scum!

Vote: droog

Town reads:

Dino
Anen


Scum:

Alchemist
Droog
Flubber

Stoped at the end of page 6.

[farside22]

Anenin,

[Removed ongoing games reference ~insanity]

He's sheeped dino and it seems like the general oppinion at that point was against amy. He could of voted in his first catch-up however he waited so that he could see how it would go. When he saw Dino go for it he joined, as scum this is a great position to set yourself up early game.
@An,
Why didn't you vote straight away, why didn't you also factor in her being a noob?

Anen made a case after his sheep vote and I didn't see meta.

Wgerts: did you ever explain why you were fine with droog's sheeping vote vote scum reading anen for it?

Noting romi in the background and seeing this post reads as a weak reason and question knit picking to keep an eye on

i noted this too she is more interested in answering questions asked to her then scum hunting. I know when I'm busy I do that too, then go back and read but I'd keep an eye on amy.


Stopped top of page 11.

[farside22]

VOTE: guts

Sheeping dino. I town read him and I suck at mafia right now.

Why did you switch your vote? Do you think amy is scummy still?

I haven't caught up yet, but Nugget hopping from one wagon to another is something that makes me uncomfortable.

Why?

Alchemist where's my double standard,
Anen, why would noob hard-claim?

I assumed wgeurts would read back and find the answer to this, but since he hasn't replied I'll repeat it.

124 - Droog openly sheeps Anem's case on Amy.

133 - Wgeurts calls Droog Town.

151 - Wgeurts votes Ane for sheeping Mathdino's case on Amy.

Now my question to wgeurts: Why do you think it's scummy for Ane to sheep Mathdino but not for Droog to sheep Ane? Also, it doesn't look at all like Ane sheeped Mathdino's case in the first place, so I don't know how you even came to that conclusion.

Anenenin had convieniently done it in his catch-up, it was either dripping with conf-bias or it was a fully intentional scum way to join the wagon. Both aren't good, droog however I was already town reading. My vote on Anen wasn't because he sheeped, it was more how he did it and a lot of gut.

What? Your reasons make no sense.

Hahaha thanks dino for 249. He unvotes amy saying contradicting or conflicting oppinions don't make her scum then goes on to vote me for seemingly just that as that's the only case I can see.
VOTE: Siveure

I'm starting to think you are a vi.

My vote is there because you don't seem to be scum hunting, and only for that reason.

I could list 3 other people that have posted this game that are not scum hunting. Why gert over others?

BTW, I had rejected voting wgeurts way back at 168 but screwed up the explanation.
There is town meta of him showing concern about lynching PRs. But I later thought his slow play was uncharacteristic of him as town. Cautious yes, but not slow.

I think Mathdino's jump off the wagon could be scum not wanting to remain first on the wagon if wgeurts flips town. The early vote could even be a catchphrase bus, with the wagon building as the reason to jump off and then be surprised if wgeurts flips scum. This gives me reason to watch Mathdino more closely, though not enough to tip the scales given how much pro-town activity he has had.

What is the point of this?
You post a damn/damn post for Dino but believe he is town.
Why did you post him as scummy either way?

I was starting to feel a similar train of thought with both the wgeurts and Amy wagons last night. I don't think it's because the wagins were too easy, but because the wagons developed at around the same time and there were no counterwagons coming up.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Flubbernugget

This guy has been unproductive for town, and the, "I suck at mafia right now," excuse doesn't cut it for me.

Also, to anyone thinking Mathdino could have been bussing wgeurts, check the draft order. They took the same number, so there's no way they're scumbuddies.

Also, hi Ank! Welcome to the game.

Agreed!
*Moves alchemist from scum to null*

ive looked through flubber's games
he is just as "useless" in other town games

the one game he posted substance in, he was scum

Did he join any wagon? Did you check all his scum games?
Also he was town in a game I played. Most of the time he lurked like a fiend but towards the end tried to figure things out. He did not jump from wagon to wagon and that game a player played his town meta and was scum that game. One of the reasons I no longer take stock in meta.

I like when ppl doubtcast without trying to peg my alignment.

Too scummy to be scum, Alchemist. This is the kind of guy I'd want a meta and playstyle argument on before considering voting him again. Also the blatant sheeping. Scum tend to do it much more subtly.
Of course if he's usually way better than this we'll lynch his ass, but I just don't know right now.

Personally, I'm gonna go with Siveure and see where that takes me.
VOTE: Siveure

You're right, anyway, with the fact that the wgeurts wagon practically absorbed the Amy one. The lack of competition is bad.

Edit: Good. Well, not good, but I guess he's town.

I disagree.
ITS null at best. I'm seen scum and town sheep. He should still be pushed to explain his vote change.


Too scummy to scum is a fucking phalasy! If it talks like scum and acts like scum, guess what it's more likely scum.
The next person to defend Flubber without pushing him for a response will get a rash of crap from me.

Amy: why is anen scum?

Posting from phone and moving to computer.

[farside22]

So Flubber's another randomidget?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Siveure

Why did you switch?

Amy wagon at this point is bad. The way she handles the pressure is town.
Siveure trying to discredit Mathdino leaving the wagon is slimy as hell. Nothing about his ISO really gives me any good iggly wigglies either.
Something about Venrob's reads sounds town. Probably because of the Amy townread. The feeling I get from his play is that he wouldn't just close off that avenue so easily as scum.
Romitelli does a good job at trying to appear like he's doing something while not doing anything.

Those are the main things that stood out to me.

What did amy do that read town, quote example.
Same question about Siv. What did he do that gives you that read.
I agree with you about Romi.

VOTE: Siveure DtTrikyp

That's okay, because I posted the meat of why I think he's scum on the last page.

Why did you wait to vote for Siv?

Here's something else to consider. Siv is 4th in the draft order. If he's scum, I think there's a good chance he got his submitted role choice, and he would also likely be the highest scum in the draft order.

If he's town, this wagon would be an easy mislynch.

If he's scum and his draft pick returned Vanilla, then this might be a wagon where the scumteam will bus.

However, if he holds a key role for the scumteam, and we push the wagon harder, I think we'll see some ratalliation from the scum hoping to keep an important role for them in the game.

WIFOM time. He's at l-2, why is he scum exactly if the above holds true?

Even without resistance, I want to see others' opinions of Siv and why they are or aren't on the wagon. I'll continue my approach based on how Siv and others respond to the wagon.

You think he is scum and he's at l-2. You stated the wagon is an easy mislynch if it was going by quickly. Is this wagon any different then Amy's or gerts?
Why?

Amy, anen, NOBODY except you two find either of you scummy. If you really want the other guy lynched, you'll need to engage everyone else, and not just be arguing with the "scum".

Alrighty, sure.

Let's start with his initial serious vote, which was on me.
He's talking about my speculation of what would be beneficial to scum. The logic behind this is somewhat skewed. Surely part of figuring out the scum is figuring out their thought processes, and I was doing so. And there goes reason #1.
He's also supporting the notion of me saying a role isn't scummy as evidence. There is no connection to one being scum due to that, and that's trying way too hard to provide more evidence of which there is none.

She's trying to make a case out of nothing here.

I'm

trying to make a case out of nothing?

He also does something that I've notice a fair bit of from scum trying to fabricate evidence. He decided to inflate my mention of Venrob's unprompted mention of his game history as this huge case.
Well, of course it'll sound scummier if you inflate it to be a bigger deal then it was and then shoot that strawman down.

His responses as to why people find me scummy are a bunch of drivel, nuff said.

Finally he chose to unvote me, probably because he saw the depth of his case on me and realised that he wouldn't get anywhere.

I am calling you a hypocrite and officially putting you on ignore.
Reread what you wrote and tell me how you did not just do the same thing you accused anen of?

grrrr

Well, Siv is another person I am willing to vote, so since this looks like it's happening...

VOTE: Siv

L-2

This seems fishy. It reads like he's trying to be consistent with himself from earlier (saying he'd watch Flubber and Siv), not trying to scumhunt.

Nah he said he thought they were both scummy. I just don't get why he voted flubber first based on the wagons.

Ven: Why did you vote flubber first over Siv?

I was planning on checking siv's ISO in Open 472, and didn't want a lynch while i was gone. Figured better safe than sorry.

My results from ISO'ing him show that he is a hell of a lot more active post-wise in this game than 472, though actual content in posts isn't much better. He was scum jailkeeper that game, (which was this same setup), and lasted to the day before lylo. Of course his scumbuddy Ser Arthur Dayne had everyone thinking of him as the towniest person, so town lost anyway that game.

His play is similar between these 2 games, and he was scum in that one. VOTE: Siv


My current thoughts on the gamestate? Siv is either scum or really bad town, hopefully scum because it is looking like he is gonna be lynched. If we can get a scum down day 1, that is a huge advantage for us. I have more townreads than scumreads, but that is completely normal D1 for me.

How was it the same?

This is town-Alchemist.

Alchemist21 - 4
davesaz - 6

Hayate Yagami

Ankamius - 8
Siveure DtTrikyp - 13
Venrob - 15
Aneninen - 1
Romitelli - 1
Amy Farrah Fowler - 3
farside22 - 3
Mathdino - 5
wgeurts - 5
Flubbernugget - 2

gangsta_duck41

AdrienC - 2
droog - 2

Groups that don't have more than one scum:

Alchemist, Siveure, davesaz

: Finding it unlikely Siv would've let Alch go for 4. Alch's behaviour is mostly scummy if Siveure flips town. Setup spec tells me it's unlikely there's more than one scum here simply because Siveure didn't get his pick, along with a few other things.

Aneninen, Romitelli:

High chance for Anen to be scum if Siv's town. It'd certainly fit the whole "scum chooses one high, one low, and one middle" draft pattern. Until we get a flip, no comment on this pair.

Amy, farside:

Amy more likely than farside, but I'm less confident in my Amy read than I was due to aforementioned wagon patterns.

Mathdino, wgeurts:

wgeurts is prob town by this point.

Flubbernugget, Adrien, droog

: Hmm. Originally I'd have gone with Flubber but people's input makes me less sure. Also voting patterns make me think Flubber and Siveure aren't a thing. So I'd go with Adrien.

Ankamius

: Not enough to tell. Every one of Hayate's posts were null IMO.

Very much appreciate the low number of groups to go through. This, people, is why you don't pick 9001 or 42. NKs in the top section will make it easier. As of now, here are my 2 callings of the more-likely-to-be-scum-of-the-groups:

If Siv's scum

: Siveure, Romitelli, Amy, wgeurts, Adrien, Ankamius

If Siv's town

: Alchemist, Aneninen, Amy, wgeurts, Flubbernugget, Ankamius

Anyone got any input, I'm welcome to it.

I'm leaning alchemist, flubber and anka as scum team. See below for reasons.

Also if by some miracle the doc is town, the best move for scum is probably to nightkill below me in the draft.

Regardless of what scum would do, town doc has to protect low, I mean. They're either shooting the doc or low.

And this quote is actually stupidly scummy.

I wish I wasn't getting lynched so I could actually explain that at a good time dangit.

Anen, nobody asked the question. The point of answering them was purely to crumb.

Oh no. I'm going into setup breaking mode. Frak.

Hmm. I'm legitimately questioning whether anen is actually this dumb. And I'm a little sick of sheeping by now.

VOTE: aneninen

Like the post, hate the vote. Why Anen?

Okay I have had an issue with Flubber and the first person to say 2 scummy to be scum can kiss my ass.

Vote: Flubber

Flubber has jumped on 2 wagons for 0 reasoning and suddenly he is on v/la after that. I don't like the timing of the situation at all.
He doesn't explain his votes and just lets others use his meta while saying nothing at all.
This is what allows scum to float by people. He needs to explain his vote and his reason's for his change and allowing him to skate why is shitty. Admittedly I had a bit of paranoia about flubber not jumping on Siv, but he was called out on his votes by a few others so that could account for the lack of switch too.

Alchemist; Originally I moved up and with his recent post about Siv he is a scum read. I had this moment of thinking he and flubber where scum together. I liked the vote on flubber but he moves it easy over to siv without much pressure. He's also has the post I quoted above about Siv and seeing how people go on the wagon. Siv is no better or worse a wagon then Gerts.

Anka: Don't like his entry in the game and his lack of reason's for his vote on Siv.

[farside22]

Oh and Toni's on my leaning scum list.
I agreed he's active lurking and yes that is a scum tell in my book

[farside22]

Romi, not Toni.
Damn phone auto correct.

[farside22]

Flubber: why did you vote amy and siv?

[farside22]

Ven: Why did you vote flubber first over Siv?

Spoiler: quote

OK so i caught back up... Still getting some decent town reads, not really seeing anything scummy enough for me to vote. In re to the above post by math, honestly I can see myself making a post like that as town so I wouldn't be too quick to call that a scum post. It seems more like frustration than scum tbh.

Ankamius, I don't think we've played a game together... Maybe you're thinking of Venmar? I took a quick scroll through my wiki and we haven't been in any games together that I can see. Regardless, welcome to the game!

If anything I'm gonna be watching siv and flubber a bit more due to the wgeurts wagon.. I agree, it seemed a bit too fast. Dave still strikes me as town though, as does math.

Anyway, I gotta go. I'll probably be back online in an hour or 2, though.

Please just post a list of reads and just vote the top scum read.

If people are ties use random.org, just do something!

Other reads are delayed but not cancled, back to phone posting.

I was told to vote my top scum read, and if there are ties use random.org. Since it was a 2-way tie i simply flipped a coin- and it landed tails, so I voted flubber. Then siv moved up on my scumreads list and I switched my vote to him. My flubber vote was in my next post after the quoted post.

Your a strange person.

How is siv meta as scum similar? Did you search his town games?

[farside22]

Did he join any wagon? Did you check all his scum games?
Also he was town in a game I played. Most of the time he lurked like a fiend but towards the end tried to figure things out. He did not jump from wagon to wagon and that game a player played his town meta and was scum that game. One of the reasons I no longer take stock in meta.

if you dont take stock in meta, why are you asking?
i did not look at all of flubber's scum games
the vast majority were town games

anyways, is...there something scummy about the wagon switching?
i could imagine scum motive
but i dont see anyone making a case that flubber's behavior is motivated by scum motive

He never said anything.
It's easy switch to make and he never expanded on anything add.
How many times do you see players that do that flip town vs scum?
I have seen it from scum. Lurk, post little content. It makes it easy to stay under when players fight.
Do I need to bring up Zor's game and how poorly kurbio's play was?
I will push it and damn the meta, but if your going by meta I'm going to ask how much you searched to reach your conclusion?

[farside22]

Math, what's so different about my wagon as opposed to wgeurts's and amy's that you switch off them easily and don't off me?

Farside, your read on me is?

Scumreading flubber and claiming his V/LA is suspicious is insanity. He's not going V/LA in the one game he's scum in and staying active on the rest of the site.

Wait. Actually put some thought into the alchemist case and lol. That is actually scummy by siv's narrow definition of scummy.

VOTE: alchemist

Anyway I'm gonna lurk for a couple days until the wagon disappears. See you all on day 2!

I thought your sheeping post was null and I got dave's point, but I don't see you as scum most because how you played after the wagon formed on you.
I think out of all the wagons that have formed Amy's play has been very under the radar and it disappeared without much said by her.
I have a gut feeling about amy that makes me not chase the rabbit currently.

If Flubber continues and alchemist flips scum I want him to be pushed.

Vote: alchemist

wgeurts's and Amy's developed too fast. Yours didn't, and the people had better reasons for voting you other than sheeping.

UNVOTE:

I'll decide who to vote after I come back but I'm beginning to think I was only hanging onto Siv since he already claimed and I wanted an info lynch.
Let's not do that.

I think they all formed at the same speed. I'm not sure why you pause at lynching alchemist if you think he is scum and you think scum might be within the top 4

[farside22]

Flubber: why did you vote amy and siv?

Siv is scum.

I need a better grasp of Amy's intentions.

Why is siv scum?

[farside22]

He wasn't trying to excuse his play in the last pyp.

Why is that scummy?

[farside22]

Amy, the point of calling you a hypocrite is that everything you called him scummy for you did yourself. Which I kindof agree with.

This^

My comment probably came across bitchy. Hypocrisy is just one of ny peeve's.

[farside22]

He wasn't trying to excuse his play in the last pyp.

Why is that scummy?

Not playing to town meta, not taking responsibility for his actions, playing defensively, etc, etc.

Are you asking this out of disagreement or asking out of thinking I'm a moron?

I'm missing what your putting down.
How does not excusing his play in pyp make him scummy this game?

Gerts: my reads are here also see 408 add on.

[farside22]

Amy wagon at this point is bad. The way she handles the pressure is town.
Siveure trying to discredit Mathdino leaving the wagon is slimy as hell. Nothing about his ISO really gives me any good iggly wigglies either.
Something about Venrob's reads sounds town. Probably because of the Amy townread. The feeling I get from his play is that he wouldn't just close off that avenue so easily as scum.
Romitelli does a good job at trying to appear like he's doing something while not doing anything.

Those are the main things that stood out to me.

I wanted the quote you mention siv discredit. I'm pretty sure he wasn't the only one to mention Dino leaving the wagon.

[farside22]

Anka:
He responded with his issue here

I did a quick search, Amy's not experienced,

let's take that off the table.

About math's distancy stuff, this.

Oh.



Let's take this off the table.

Why is it scummy? It's the only thing you pointed too and voted on.

[farside22]

He wasn't trying to excuse his play in the last pyp.

Why is that scummy?

Not playing to town meta, not taking responsibility for his actions, playing defensively, etc, etc.

Are you asking this out of disagreement or asking out of thinking I'm a moron?

I'm missing what your putting down.
How does not excusing his play in pyp make him scummy this game?

Why does he have a self-preservation mentality he didn't have as town?

I don't know.
What I know is what siv sai here

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6414560

I don't dive into meta for too often because people can be misinterpreted. I recall vezo and I agruing about meta and how I play and how he played. We thought because of our meta of each other, the other was scum and we were both town.
I have to remind myself when I play with someone I know, they change playstyles for whatever reason. I want to scum read them for there differences, but I step back occasionally and say what kind of case are they making? How are they coming across in there views?

[farside22]

Also, sheeping math

VOTE: amy farrah fowler

siv and dino arent both scum

When have you seen scum sheep scum?

[farside22]

Droog: your point about the soft and hard points read as a personality issue.

[farside22]

Droog: what I don't get with what your pointing out. What is Dino's scum motivation for unvoting once the wagon gained speed.
Also he was typically 1st or 2nd voting that player where others followed him.
Why does any of that make him scum vs others that follow

[farside22]

Dave: explain what point you see about Dino.

Droog: why is Dino scum for the weak push and not others? Dino jumped off when others followed. I do the same thing unless I feel confident in my scum read.

[farside22]

Siv: why is anen a scum read?

[farside22]

So that's five on Anen and four on Siv, right? Because I think we're close to deadline and we need to decide on a lynch soon.

Do you have a scum read on either one?

Ugh, last thing I was planning to do was huge ISO of Alchemist and Anen but I fell asleep before doing that. Twice. Procrastination.

More comfortable lynching Alchemist. Anen's whole softclaim thing is actually giving him slight townpoints.

Aneninen

, can you
A. semi-prove you are town tomorrow and/or
B. have your plan done by tomorrow?

I've not sure why alchemist wagon didn't hapoen. I saw at least 2 other player voice suspicion but didn't vot alchemist.

You have that backwards. Four on Ane and 5 on Siv.

Nice of you to just sit back and watch there.

[farside22]

Fucking a. Can we lynch Venrob?

Won't happen.
Vote alchemist instead.

[farside22]

Dino: why did you say you thought alchemist reaction was town, but you were still willing to lynch him?

[farside22]

VOTE: AdrienC

His sudden naked vote on me was scummy.

@Formerfish, do you still think Venrob is scum?

Lots of players naked vote.
Why did you finds his vote scummy?

Also thoughts on Dino.

[farside22]

Removed

[farside22]

Mod please remove the above post

[farside22]

Totally deserved for being in to many games at once.

Alchemist: you've made me think. Did you see anything from any other wagon?

[farside22]

Not really. My line of thinking was that if Siv actually turned out to be town, he could be easily mislynched without the scum needing to be on the wagon, so I'm focusing on players that weren't on the Siv wagon.

Hmmmm

*note to self to check siv wagon*

[farside22]

So your theory is that scum stayed off the wagon, one that was a deadline compromise that they would literally have no cause to have to explain their vote? Interesting. Probably wrong, but interesting that you would put that forth.

Also, give reasons for why you think Math is town.

I think it's crazy.

Why would scum stay off an easy lynch and one that would deadline.

Droog: you think scum stayed off the wagon too or is it just Adrienne coming in and asking about the lynch?

[farside22]

Actually I just thought of something.
I want adrien and anen to respond with thoughts before anything else is said

[farside22]

I looked at the wagon on siv
The one I found the scummiest.

Vote: anka

[farside22]

Sure lets go over a few things.

VOTE: Siveure DtTrikyp

The vote on siv which came after stating a reason.

Amy wagon at this point is bad. The way she handles the pressure is town.
Siveure trying to discredit Mathdino leaving the wagon is slimy as hell. Nothing about his ISO really gives me any good iggly wigglies either.
Something about Venrob's reads sounds town. Probably because of the Amy townread. The feeling I get from his play is that he wouldn't just close off that avenue so easily as scum.
Romitelli does a good job at trying to appear like he's doing something while not doing anything.

Those are the main things that stood out to me.

The reason is vague.

This is town-Alchemist.

Amy wagon at this point is bad. The way she handles the pressure is town.
Siveure trying to discredit Mathdino leaving the wagon is slimy as hell. Nothing about his ISO really gives me any good iggly wigglies either.
Something about Venrob's reads sounds town. Probably because of the Amy townread. The feeling I get from his play is that he wouldn't just close off that avenue so easily as scum.
Romitelli does a good job at trying to appear like he's doing something while not doing anything.

Those are the main things that stood out to me.

What did amy do that read town, quote example.
Same question about Siv. What did he do that gives you that read.

When I asked about the delay I get more vague reasoning.

She's trying to get reads from the pressure she's getting instead of spending all her effort trying to dismantle the wagon. Other than a few posts at the start, it's been very little of that until the wagon dismantled. The posts after came less often (null tell), but had the same type of feel to them.

I don't understand your second question at all. I explained my scumread on him and the second point is basically just saying that nothing he posted gave me a particularly town feel to his play. Unless you want me to go into the first point more, this question isn't answerable.

VOTE: Siveure DtTrikyp

That's okay, because I posted the meat of why I think he's scum on the last page.

Why did you wait to vote for Siv?

I was kinda hoping to get interactions before committing to anything since I hadn't fully parsed where everyone is in my head at that point; the reads list was just general areas for everyone. After getting asked one question, I started being completely ignored and Siveure DtTrikyp made some pretty icky posts at that point so I just said fuck it and voted.

And more vague.

Lots of buzz words and no substance

[farside22]

Not liking droog's AdrienC vote.

do you think adrien asking if the lynch was through
without voting on it
was not scummy?

That's not what I was getting at. You posted all this stuff about other people, then quoted one post by Adrien with a response that is less impressive, but decided that was the scummiest thing out of everything you posted. I don't understand how it's groundbreaking enough to be stronger than everything else you posted by itself.

so instead of saying 'please explain
you posted all this stuff about other people
then quoted one post by adrien'

you left the vague 'i dont like this'
which could be interpreted many ways

So you want to explain why you said all that stuff about others but voted for adrien?

*places money that droog will continue to ask questions while never answering what's asked*

[farside22]

Yes. Why wouldn't I? Did you are anything that would make me change my mind?

No. I'm just thinking that unless Venrob is scum then the Siv wagon was all town. I'll be keeping my eye on him.

P-edit: Usually you can find a reason for a vote in another post. Ade gave absolutely no reason when he voted me.

Also I'm still sure Dino is town.

I just remembered that Flubber naked voted amy.
Did you vote for him?

Looks
You thought it was random even though he clearly went to amy and then gerts



Explain

[farside22]

@droog
Both quotes show alchemist and anka asking you about your vote on Adrien vs your comments.

Neither time do you explain the reason but ask questions to both players about the read on adrien

Droog, I don't understand how you went from voting Dino to voting Ade in just a few posts.

I would still gladly vote Dino
But does adrien in say end not look scummy??

Not liking droog's AdrienC vote.

do you think adrien asking if the lynch was through
without voting on it
was not scummy?

That's not what I was getting at. You posted all this stuff about other people, then quoted one post by Adrien with a response that is less impressive, but decided that was the scummiest thing out of everything you posted. I don't understand how it's groundbreaking enough to be stronger than everything else you posted by itself.

so instead of saying 'please explain
you posted all this stuff about other people
then quoted one post by adrien'

you left the vague 'i dont like this'
which could be interpreted many ways

[farside22]

I'm more comfortable with Alchemist then the other two.

Vote: Alchemist

So that's five on Anen and four on Siv, right? Because I think we're close to deadline and we need to decide on a lynch soon.

Do you have a scum read on either one?

A weak one on Siv. That was more of a "I don't want a no lynch" post.

So that's five on Anen and four on Siv, right? Because I think we're close to deadline and we need to decide on a lynch soon.

I look forward to when you do get back to me on that. Though with you saying you were unsure of them being scum together. If Alchemist flips scum, where is Anen then and also if he flips town?

Rereading the adrien I see a bit of droog's thought process on anen and adrien scum team.

Adrien talks about the wagon.
Doesn't vote for either, votes for alchemist, but then states a light scum read on anen
He seems to be avoiding talking about his own read of anen

Vote: Alc

Added colon

Alc is today's lynch. All the cool kids are doing it. You wanna be a cool kid don't you?

Well, sometimes when it gets close to deadline, a man chooses a lynch that isn't the best, but it'll do for the time being. No one likes finding out they are a compromise lynch, but we've all been there at one point or another.

I already said I'm not lynching siv with venrob on that wagon, and An has claimed a role that is confirmable so he has a stay of execution. I'd like to lynch venrob but won't have enough time to get support. So its you.

I looked at this to see fish comment is the equivalent of Adriens but with more words after the naked vote.

Really it comes down to when fish votes for siv and adrien doesn't for no reason found.

Droog: am I missing anything?

[farside22]

Vote: alchemist

He's lying about his reasons about adrien.

Quote wall when I get to my computer.

[farside22]

I'm waiting on the computer to show something.

Till then some general thoughts.

I'm bithered by alchemist. He defended flugger's earily and then says nothing to Flubber about his naked votes at all. I noted 2 wagons Flubber nake voted without a word indicating a scum read at all.
Then there is adrien.
In a nutshell I see that his words make no sense. If you are looking for a lynch to happen why vote alchemist over siv. When questioned adrien never explains his vote there any better.

I'm hesitating with that wagon with both Flubber and alchemist part of that drive

[farside22]

So alchemist: you going to explain better yet why you haven't called Flubber out if it's a scum tell.
He has now been with 3 wagons that he never scum read and claimed to scum read siv.

[farside22]

Funny enough both alchemist and Flubber reactions made me feel better.
Not for anything but alchemist seems to be thinking things through.
Flubber.....well I am a betting girl and I want to talk with dino a bit.


Dino: when you have a moment I want your thoughts on Flubber please.

[farside22]

unvote

vote: adriene

[farside22]

So we are probaly voting one scum right now, dino like you did in stack dat deck could you make a vote analysis then we can see where's resistance and it'll make associative tells easier day 3. I would do it however this frickin phone makes life unbearable (I've got a laptop without internet so I can use it as a text editor and email to my phone worst case) I'm rereading day 2, I've been buisy and suggest we get discussion rolling again, who are the people lurking *now*?

Let me put it this way
It will take a lot to move my vote from adrien at this point.

You have the constant dodge with nothing add since day 1
He voted alchemist saying for a lynch but there was a siv and anem wagon going on. He never explained why he voted one over the other.

[farside22]

Read a bit, and I feel comfortable with this- VOTE: wgeurts

anka's 878 is perfect here.

Explain why.

[farside22]

Uhg... back. I thought I'd be home from christmas shopping and dinner out with the family in time to make a post yesterday, but frankly I was just too tired. I'm gonna do some reading and make a post.

Read a bit, and I feel comfortable with this- VOTE: wgeurts

anka's 878 is perfect here.

Derp De derp. Read for 20 minutes, throw down naked vote, mention a post as being good. Today was a productive day. Derp de derp.

I lol'ed.

True, true words.

[farside22]

*Looks at who I'm voting
Reads page
Nods in agreement with vote.*

[farside22]

I had amy as null. I know from past experience her not being around was normal.

[farside22]

I feel like there are two different games going on right now. One game is being played by people making logical leaps in thought and are posting well thought out questions and points. The other game seems to be who can make the least sense with everything they do and get away with it.

Can someone confirm I'm not going fucking crazy?

Those not making a lick of sense and look to be making shit up: adrien and ven.

If I'm missing someone let me know

[farside22]

Dino: your going to have to explain that town read on adrien better.
All I see is a player voting and explaining Jack shit.

Fishy: I'm tempted to visit Pittsburg, but it's a bit further then I want to go for food.
We go as far as erie when heading into pa.

[farside22]

This is for dino and anyone that is paying attention

Can someone summarize the case on Siv in one post? Why is he at L-3? Why should we be lynching him and should the rest of us be joining that lynch or fighting it?

Here you see he is asking about the Siv wagon.
From later on he comments nothing about the response given to him at all.

So that's five on Anen and four on Siv, right? Because I think we're close to deadline and we need to decide on a lynch soon.

Here he ask about the 2 main wagons.

I'm more comfortable with Alchemist then the other two.

Vote: Alchemist

Really? Where the fuck did this come from?

So that's five on Anen and four on Siv, right? Because I think we're close to deadline and we need to decide on a lynch soon.

Do you have a scum read on either one?

A weak one on Siv. That was more of a "I don't want a no lynch" post.

Here he says he has a weak reason on Siv and the only reason he voted was because>......

Okay, I'm back. Why am I being voted for? I think I heard someone say something along the lines of my vote to end the last day phase, but I was trying to get some form of a lynch going before deadline. My ISO supports that.

That is fucking BS.
There was a wagon on Siv and Anem. He picked neither and never said shit about a scum read on alchemist.



Next up is ven


Oh just a note for myself I'm waiting for victor to finish catch up before comment.

[farside22]

Ven is another doing shit all explaining reads this game.

Well, Siv is another person I am willing to vote, so since this looks like it's happening...

VOTE: Siv

L-2

Also, it seems that one of my friends has pissed off some serious hackers, and they may be coming after me.... so I'm going to give a preemptive

V/LA for a week

incase they take down my internet.

votes siv for unknown reason.

OK so i caught back up... Still getting some decent town reads, not really seeing anything scummy enough for me to vote. In re to the above post by math, honestly I can see myself making a post like that as town so I wouldn't be too quick to call that a scum post. It seems more like frustration than scum tbh.

Ankamius, I don't think we've played a game together... Maybe you're thinking of Venmar? I took a quick scroll through my wiki and we haven't been in any games together that I can see. Regardless, welcome to the game!

If anything I'm gonna be watching siv and flubber a bit more due to the wgeurts wagon.. I agree, it seemed a bit too fast. Dave still strikes me as town though, as does math.

Anyway, I gotta go. I'll probably be back online in an hour or 2, though.

more vague reasoning here.

OK so i caught back up... Still getting some decent town reads, not really seeing anything scummy enough for me to vote. In re to the above post by math, honestly I can see myself making a post like that as town so I wouldn't be too quick to call that a scum post. It seems more like frustration than scum tbh.

Ankamius, I don't think we've played a game together... Maybe you're thinking of Venmar? I took a quick scroll through my wiki and we haven't been in any games together that I can see. Regardless, welcome to the game!

If anything I'm gonna be watching siv and flubber a bit more due to the wgeurts wagon.. I agree, it seemed a bit too fast. Dave still strikes me as town though, as does math.

Anyway, I gotta go. I'll probably be back online in an hour or 2, though.

Please just post a list of reads and just vote the top scum read. If people are ties use random.org, just do something!
Other reads are delayed but not cancled, back to phone posting.

VOTE: Flubber

switches back and forth between flubber and siv.

Ok, UNVOTE: siv. I have my reasons.

Also, since when can doc self-protect? I have never seen that happen....

unvote

I was planning on checking siv's ISO in Open 472, and didn't want a lynch while i was gone. Figured better safe than sorry.

My results from ISO'ing him show that he is a hell of a lot more active post-wise in this game than 472, though actual content in posts isn't much better. He was scum jailkeeper that game, (which was this same setup), and lasted to the day before lylo. Of course his scumbuddy Ser Arthur Dayne had everyone thinking of him as the towniest person, so town lost anyway that game.

His play is similar between these 2 games, and he was scum in that one. VOTE: Siv


My current thoughts on the gamestate? Siv is either scum or really bad town, hopefully scum because it is looking like he is gonna be lynched. If we can get a scum down day 1, that is a huge advantage for us. I have more townreads than scumreads, but that is completely normal D1 for me.

then claims meta reasons, which I looked at afterwards and didn't see anything similiar.
He never explains jack this game.

Internet is all hooked up with Cox now, so I should be online a LOT more. Siv did seem scummy to me at the last time I was on, but he wasn't.... Well, better than a no lynch i guess...
And of course one of my townreads gets killed.

As for what I'm seeing, for now I'm going to VOTE: anen.

WTF did this even come from.

Read a bit, and I feel comfortable with this- VOTE: wgeurts

anka's 878 is perfect here.

buddy up

Woop, fixed my laptops internet.
Now, seriously (half-policy):
VOTE: Venrob
I don't see any posts from him, his whole thing looks staged as well.

UNVOTE: droog
VOTE: wgeurts

This post and his last one are both really bugging me; this one for the timing and fake-looking reasoning, and the last one because... wat. He thinks there's one scum being voted when there's 5 wagons of two people and asks someone else to do VCA? Then votes someone for doing nothing?

I really don't care that his laptop's internet was out and he was phoneposting. He got his internet back with this post and what he decided to do with it doesn't sit right with me at all.

The post mentioned was my reasoning. This is exactly why wgeurts is scummy.

This is the first and only sheep vote I have seen.

I read him as just lurking scum giving shit reads.

[farside22]

Right, so uh

1. The 'unknown reason' was given way before that post literally the post you quoted right after.
2. Alchemist also switched back and forth and IIRC I did as well. I think the general consensus was their involvement in the wgeurts wagon was equally scummy.
3. Remind me how the unvote and revote has scum motivation?
4. Dunno where the Anen vote came from. Scum motivation?
5. I concede buddying Ankamius since I think Anka is scum.

As far as I'm concerned, I think scum is Ankamius, {wgeurts, Venrob}, and {Victor, Flubber, Adrien}, and if I had to call it it'd be Ankamius, wgeurts, and Amy/Victor.

1) you talking about Siv? Because I saw nothing but meta talk
2) ven didn't explain why he felt they were both scum. He was freeking following
3) just weird
4) Is there a reason for the vote? Do you know who?
5) okay

Me: Adrien, Venrob. Still working on the 3rd. I had droog yesterday but his vote on adrien makes me feel better, although it's pretty weak reason he's going for. Amy/Victor was the closest I had to scum but was more paranoid so null for me with wanting more info. Anka,wgeurts makes no sense at all.

[farside22]

Why doesn't it make sense?

He was the first one to vote and comment about gerts post here

I would say Amy anka makes more sense reading this

[farside22]

Hi GC! You going to start stalking me around? :p

@dino: I'd like to see what GC says. I've seen scum claim vt as a replacement before so his reaction is null for me.
On a side note: I totally read a game for 4 or 5 pages to see if I want to replace in. I thought I was the only one doing that.

[farside22]

You guys know
I played along with Dino too
Right?

Oh mod just asked if I wanted in since I volunteered earlier.

On phone, haven't read game, but I'm VT.

So what's droog's line tomorrow when I flip green?

?

What did you think of GC's reaction?

I like gerts post, not joining that wagon.

[farside22]

Also my scum list is going more adrien, Flubber, victor, anka, GC (yes I'm allowed to disagree with your view dino)

[farside22]

@ fish: this may not make sense.
I have a lot of people tell me my reasons don't read well and are hard to understand. But here is the best I can explain my reason.

I'm sorry my day 2 play has been absolutely rubbish, my holidays nearly are starting so I've got time to make a more extensive analysis of each individual.

Flubbernugget

17 - This is his random vote on alchemist.

18, 23 and 132 - These are all fluff.

146 - Votes amy in what looks like a pressure vote. It looks opportunistic as amy already had 4 votes so it feels a bit off. Slightly scummy.

147 - Fluff.

251 - Basically naked votes me using the excuse of sheeping Mathdino as he's his strongest town read. This also feels off as I had 4 votes at that point and he has now been on the 2 main wagons without any good reasoning. More scummy.

253 to 411 - Fluff.

412 - Through this post we see that Flubbernugget thinks Davesaz and Siveure were scum. Noted.

428 - After vaguely calling Siv scum in his last post (While pressure was rising on him) he now calls him scum

while siveure has 5 votes on him

. Why doesn't flubber vote siv there and then?
It looks like he's setting up for the mis-lynch from a scum-perspective.

431, 438 and 469 - Weak one-line reasoning attempting to justify his Siv scum read. It's weird he isn't voting him.

(Only noting posts of worth from off here.)

615 - If flubber is scum this could be seen as a possibility to set up for a wagon hop to Alchemist if the Siv wagon dies. Alchemist had 2 votes by that point and would of been the most likely counter-wagon. He's still voting me with no reasoning although he's expressed many scum reads.

820 - Votes Adrien without any reasoning in a naked vote.

835 - Now this is odd, he just quit all the main wagons at that point. This doesn't add up with scum theory.

896 - He adds Venrob to his scum list. Well, he's back to his scum looking self again. This feels like setting up to go either way with Adrien or Venrob both the main suspects besides me.

Bleh, either really bad town play or scum. I'm making a list of who's most likely scum with scum at the top:

1. Flubbernugget

He's the first on it so this may change.

Droog

8 - His RVS vote on Anen.

13 and 20 - He's already analysing wagons and votes. Small town points here.

31 and 37 - He's contributing to setup speculation. I don't know why people add reads to this as scum could also just join in to look like they are contributing. Null.

61 - Backs up his earlier analysis methods. Feels town but is really null.

99 - Hinting that he feels something's off with Dino's posts. Dino wasn't a suspect at that point so this grants very small town points.

101 - I disagree with him but he's actually looking through posts trying to find stuff.

111 - This is a good post. I agree with him that setup spec isn't automatically town-motivated.

124 - Don't know what to make of this. He's sheeping a case saying he'll vote Dino if he does anything more scummy. The scum perspective here would be that he tried to get a Dino wagon going however it didn't catch so he's giving up and the town one would be he's not convinced himself of his Dino read. He votes Amy while she's at 3 votes here.

149 - The town theory seems to add up to this. He's unconfident in the Amy wagon so he says he will quit if it reaches L-1. I find it hard to give a scum motivation for this.

237 - This could be given a scum motivation, it could be possibly seen as setting up to hop onto my wagon (2 votes) if amy's fails.

238 and 304 - More evidence that he's actually analysing everyone, something I see as a town-tell. His loss of trust in his Amy read feels natural and Anen wasn't a tempting wagon for scum at that point.

371 - He's showing his scum-Dino read again here. Dino was under (nearly) no suspicion at that point so this whole Dino thing would only really make sense as bussing if Dino and Droog were both scum. That would explain the not actually hard pushing that read.

498 - Pushing Dino slightly. He pushes more over his ext coming posts which I won't comment on.

548 - This feels good.

577 - Finally votes Dino, I really doubt a Dino-Droog team.

583 - I'm starting to fully agree.

652 - This is also a good vote.

I've went through his D2 posts as well but it's consistent with his play so far, he's town.

1. Flubbernugget
   
2. Droog

Ankimus [s

Hayate[/s]]

Hayate

29 - RV on Flubbernugget

34 - This is an odd one and can be views from two perspectives: Scum trying to look town by joining and investing effort into analysis or town investing effort as a genuine town. I can't tell from this alone.

42 - (S)he seems rather eager to participate in this discussion, same as above.

49 - Seems a little fabricated? Or not? I really don't know.

Hayate gets replaced with ankimus

297 - Two of her scum reads are town and she's defending amy. She scum reads Siv (amy and siv were both at 3 votes). If he flips scum we should seriously consider lynching amy's slot.

311 - Votes siv putting him at 4 votes. His reasons for doing so are really weak however. Slight scum.

366 - Venrob goes from being town to scum in this post. Venrob wasn't being voted at that point so this looks good although it's odd he doesn't change votes.

383 - Really terribly explained Davesaz scum read. Seems fake.

447 - Seems like she's refusing to explain the siv scum read/vote. Possibly because it isn't actually real?

General- He conveniently lurks through Siv's lynch with a vote on him.

878 - Votes me while there are no other votes on me. Seems slightly town motivated.

He's a lot less town then Alchemist but isn't at all as scummy as Flubber so:

1. Flubber
   
2. Ankimus
   
3. Alchemist
   
4. Droog

I used these as examples because when gerts talked about flubber and anka I recalled feeling the same way about both players in regards to there play.
Most of the sum of Flubber is nothing but fluff. At best Flubber is trollie, which I keep thinking of our last game together how much he wasn't mr. Fluff and fold.
With anka I talked about the amy read with anka.
I think the only thing I don't get is why anka is so high on the scum list after what he posted.
I've done iioa before when I get lost as a reminder to myself of players I forget about when there's been flips. I just don't post them all.

[farside22]

Because it's a pet peeve, just wanna say

Ad hominem is not "You're wrong, therefore you're stupid." That's just an insult. A useless one in this game, but an insult nonetheless.
Ad hominem is "You have an IQ of 42, therefore you're wrong."
Ad hominem is not "You're disregarding a common reaction test, therefore you're a hipster."

Regardless, just because it's common doesn't mean it doesn't work. The only way it wouldn't work is if you believe GC read the thread and confirmed it was a reaction test before claiming his role. Otherwise he had no way of knowing it was a reaction test.

I think this is possible. I don't see why with your wifom talks you dismiss it.

Also making shitty cases is a null tell. I could list many players sitewide that can't make a case worth a crap.

[farside22]

GC: Thus far nothing you've said really has changed my view thus far. I would like to know what your thoughts are on players.

[farside22]

Yeah, that's fine. I have company coming over tonight for dinner. I'll get to it tomorrow.

What are we having for dinner!

Wait thats actually realky useful

What can scum do with it when the top 4 are already NK targets anyway?

I thought you had scum in the top 4......

There's scum in the top 4. I'll eat my hat if there's not.

By that, it'll be incredibly easy for scum to figure out who it is.

So why the push on gerts again?

[farside22]

Can you expand on the gerts and Flubber and amy spots more.

I had amy pretty null. My concern with victor is a bit meta based but I've only seen his scum game so it could be a bit paraniod without doing more research on the spot.

I keep going back and forth with Flubber. First scum, then town, then scum, then town. I just don't always know where he is coming from and then he has moments I go yea! Basically spastic.

[farside22]

Still leaning adrien, amy and GC

[farside22]

I don't feel as excited by the case GC presented, pretty sure I asked GC about other reads too.

[farside22]

Can you expand on the gerts and Flubber and amy spots more.

I had amy pretty null. My concern with victor is a bit meta based but I've only seen his scum game so it could be a bit paraniod without doing more research on the spot.

I keep going back and forth with Flubber. First scum, then town, then scum, then town. I just don't always know where he is coming from and then he has moments I go yea! Basically spastic.

Here we go.

[farside22]

If wgeurts votes Ank we have L-3.

farside

, forgive me if this is due to never actually reading your ISO, but what caused the flip-flop on Ankamius between today and yesterday?

He's there in the background. I feel a bit paranoid because GC scum read the spot and town read amy.
In our last game I felt amy was more on the ball in the beginning and she explained things well. This game not so much and I took her as busy as a possible reason to call her null. I didn't really think she did much with the wagon on her. So when I feel myself disagree with a read from a player who was in the same game as me I wonder about the connection there and it has me step back a bit.

Let me give it a shot.

wgeurts

: scummy posting early on, then it became more leanish town near the end of D1, then null.

I'm not going to ISO wgeurts just to point out the hard limits on these sections (early D1, late D1, early D2). Because effort, and I don't see the utility of doing it. I don't even know if there are hard limits. I'm just going off of memory.

Flubbernugget: town posting throughout, though mostly unhelpful

His posts look like another game where he was town. In that other game, I was assured that this is just how he plays. Not really engaged until something grabs his attention, and then he just sort of flickers out. His play here is in accordance with that. His play here also doesn't strike me as scummy in tone/content, either. At most - and this is really stretching it - I guess you could go the "lazy scum" route, but that just doesn't really fit his play in my opinion.

VictorDeAngelo

: I thought Amy's posts read pretty town; I think Victor's replaced-in posting style is scummy, but the fact that he's running with it while people have stated how much they dislike it reads town, as it looks like Victor isn't actually looking at up-to-date posting while reading through for the first time. Not saying that

only

scum

would

look at up-to-date posting while reading through (for various reasons, including the fact that I kept an eye on what was going on in new posts while reading through, and I know that I am town), but that scum

would not

(likely) just ignore the present-day game while reading through, and scum would probably like to readjust their style to stop doing something several players have said that they really hate.

Amy's posts read town to me. She said things. Other people gave her grief for it. She responded. Then she and Anen got into a stupid back and forth that I skimmed over. Nothing exciting.

VOTE: Ankimus
Lets lynch the poor replacement.

@Victor:

have you replaced into a game before. Is this how you always replace in?

How do you feel about the fact that

nobody

has approved of your catchup style?

I'm certainly not reading your wall posts about past posts that I don't even know if you think are important, you just feel like emoting about. I await a substantive pos at the end I your read through tha tells me who you suspect, and why.

I get Flubber, but not really anything about gerts.
Also victor replaced in a game I was in and he was scum that game. Guess where I stand.

Vote: victor

[farside22]

Sorry I'm phone posting but I had one question.
Gerts: why the vote now?

[farside22]

[quote="In

@Farside

- Wtf? I mean seriously I getting voted because last time I replaced into a game I was scum? Seriously. What kind of dumb logic is that?[/quote]

It's how you do

OK, I'm pretty much behind lynching the Venrob slot, the Ank slot or the AdrienC slot (oh wait, AdrienC is still in it). I feel best about finding scum in Ankimus right now:

VOTE: Ollie

I didn't like that GC is giving you excuses and if you read my post you would have seen I had suspicion of you 2 prior. I also didn't like the buddying you did. All my post were all spot on and good points.
Multiple scum reads and frankly I see a lot of the let me agree with X that I saw from your last game with me.

Now that you just joined the biggest BW I feel even more strongly because I don't know why you voted for Anka over GC or even Adrien.

[farside22]

Why if you aren't liking a flubber vote it should then be ankimus

He instantly starts with a siv scum read from gut to him being "slimy as hell" in posts 296 and 297. This is a horrible reason and to make matters worse he isn't voting him besides his clear message he's scum (and it was incorrect as Siv pointed out in his post afterwords). The pressure was only starting to build on siv so it would make sense as scum to set up for a vote onto a possible growing wagon but not to join it before you're sure it will actually grow to create as little suspicion on yourself as possible. In 299 he then tries to justify his read (still not voting) by saying "he got that read in the first 1/3 of the game". Well, how convenient, now he doesn't have make up fake reasons. It's a horrible excuse/reason for his siv read, look at them seriously. He does eventually vote in 311 saying it's not naked (in 313) because he had explained it on the last page. Well if I remember correctly the first actual only reason was refuted and the second was "I thought you were scum by reading the first 1/3 of the game and can't find enough town reads to balance it". Basically, he's not explained it so it's a naked vote. The problem is he's trying to justify it is a valid vote where as it isn't.

Around 363 he basically votes venrob for... what he's doing himself. After she had said earlier "this is town venrob" like 2 or 3 pages ago. She also continues to brag how strong his read on siv is in 448, it's still based off thin air and it seems she's avoiding pressuring siv to get answers for her read. She then lurks over to D2 and a siv lynch, wether this is on purpose or not is up for debate.

It's mostly based off how he acted with siv.

Why I'm voting ankimus slot.

I was wondering why you waited to vote anka.

[farside22]

Now that you just joined the biggest BW

I feel even more strongly because I don't know why you voted for Anka over GC or even Adrien.

The timing is very suspicious. Although people do sometimes think they're better off voting for someone who might be scum rather than die themselves when they know they aren't. That could be the case here.

1) the first quote you had was gert, not me
2) that has some truth. But I tend to see more stubborn town then survivlustic. Or emotionally unbalanced.
The survivlustic is more scum then town. Cooper pointed out he tends to fight more as scum. Victor lurked a lot from what I recalled and followed me and during lylo started bussing.

[farside22]

VOTE: VictorDeAngelo

Let's simplify this. Vote for me or Victor & stop this messing around.

This is pretty survivlustic. Why the 1v1?

@victor: it is not just meta. Yes you may do catch up. But it is hard for me when I see you following me and I see a replay from our last game together.

GC: I thought more of amy as how she started then her mid game. She analysised players and thought thinks out loud for each person. I didn't see that here. I did know because of mid game she was busy but I also remember her break down when people voted her and I didn't see it here. I don't see why she would have changed her attitude based on how strongly she felt during that time.
Things like that stuck out as missing. I do take busy as a possiblity in life.

[farside22]

How is it survivalistic? He's setting himself up to be the lynch if Victor flips town.

I mean I guess it could be a way of delaying his lynch.

He talked to I think 3 players votes and voted on the biggest wagon.
Plus the 1v1 is weird to me.

GC: will get to your longer post later.

[farside22]

Like I said GC: I was pretty null about amy. Her behavior is either town who is busy or scum that can't scum hunt because newb scum tend to get lost fast.

[farside22]

I don't see too terribly much light between our positions, then? Other than the fact that you ultimately nullread Amy and I ultimately townread her (but we agree upon the two most likely explanations for her play)?

I'm confused about our conversation.

I found it odd she was a town read for you.
Lots of what I saw was null.

[farside22]

Don't you find it strange that noone even noted (nor noticed?) it?
I hadn't announced it because I wanted to know what would happen... and this fact will be a very valuable piece of information later on, according to the forthcoming flip.

I noticed it. I waited too.

Flubber and Alchemist need to switch votes

Idk whats goin on there

I trust adrien to make a decision regardless

I think i use regardless more than a valley girl uses like

Like, regardless, totally consider...

Like, rad man. I totally, for sure, get you.

Also I'm waiting for a few people to weigh in that are riding low under the radar.

[farside22]

Let's not be coy, folks.

Name names of people you are waiting to hear from.

Adrien, gerts, Flubber.
Those are the 3 I haven't heard from since this wagon started.

[farside22]

I'm not seeing the VDA case being stronger than the Ankimus, yes his play looks bad if you view it from a certain perspective however anyone who's actually ISO'ed Ank should see that it's scum play. I'm also wondering wether ollies intentionally lurking to loose heat as a replacement so there's that as well, my vote is also a pressure one to get him speaking. Await better posts.

Lurking?? Are you even reading?

[farside22]

Ollie: have you read the game? If so who are your scum reads? If not why did you focus just on victor?

[farside22]

I have two different scum groups vda.
With day talk in this game is assume scum would think about a hammer if noted.
If no hammer I wonder why. Even if someone said player is l-1 intent to hammer I'd wonder why depending who said it.
Those are the reasons why I waited.
None of that happened, which is why my vote stays.

[farside22]

Vda: I know your not stupid here. I even remember your scum game and you know scum is way more aware of vote counts and where they stand. Unless ika or some vi is in this game I'm about 90% certain players in general are aware enough to look at votes, especially scum before voting.
What happens is telling. Do I think your town. Nope.
Do I think the lack of hammer is telling. Yup.

[farside22]

farside, are you speculating Victor has a buddy in {Flubbernugget, Alchemist, Adrien}?

Adrien is on my scum list. Flubber is in the background of null.
I am back to feeling alchemist is town. His unvote and push back feels natural.

Vda: I know your not stupid here. I even remember your scum game and you know scum is way more aware of vote counts and where they stand. Unless ika or some vi is in this game I'm about 90% certain players in general are aware enough to look at votes, especially scum before voting.
What happens is telling. Do I think your town. Nope.
Do I think the lack of hammer is telling. Yup.

That doesn't really matter here. The point is, without anyone mentioning it's L-1 someone could hammer. Could be town, could be opportunistic scum. The question is how would you know.

Furthermore, what would my townflip coupled with the lack of hammer tell you, if anything?

I hate to give any stragety away I expect at times.
I expect scum to ask if they should vote/lynch aware of the vote count.
A vote without looking can be either alignment. But frankly scum tend to act more town then town does
Yes I know that sounds bad but the number of times I see hammers without claims and town hammering is more often then I care to say.
Now that I've said this I will trust no one in this game either way

[farside22]

Mod: v/la till after x-mas

Hope everyone has a happy holiday

[farside22]

I saw this coming. I'm fairly sure if you check Alchemist's ISO he investigated me between D1 and D2 so I'd like to think I'm as close to conftown as you get. "No one can convince me this guy was scum".

@Alchemist: Try being a lil less obvious I guess? Meh you were at the top anyway.

VOTE: Ollie

Where did you get this from?
Could you link the quote?

[farside22]

First of all, something must be cleared.
These questions are to be answered:

(1) Has anyone received a Fruit yet? (If someone, a single player answers yes, neither of these questions need answering any more.)
(2) Did you get in a neighbourhood

at Night 2

? (If so, do NOT out the Neighbourizer, nor your neighbour-buddy!)

I strongly think that something strange's going on. It seems to be absurd and I need something to start my idea confirm or rule out with.

Why do you want to know this?


Alright just caught up and dino can ignore my request.
Ollie's protection on GC looks like bs. Why would anyone not protect the person who was number 1 on the list. He'll even night one reading anka slot the results make no sense. Alchemist was town reading anka and anka was town reading alchemist. I can't imagine anka not wanting to protect him.

I want to check one thing, but consider my vote on Ollie.

[farside22]

Anem: that makes no sense.
Pr's whether in the game or not shouldn't be known.
Let's say for example there is a neighborizor in the game and for shits and giggles math says he was neighborized.
The scum know 1) there is a neighbor and 2) they have an idea who that player maybe if the player is town.
Now explain to me what the positive of this info gives?

[farside22]

I don't see any benifit to having anyone claim.

I checked what I needed.

Things that I want touched on if dead.
I think flubber's actions day 2 at the end was odd.
Adrien's reads this game need to be expanded.
Review droog, reads a little quiet for me

Vote: Ollie

[farside22]

Also reading post 1313 from Ollie and his first line about caring about pr, if he cared and was doc, protecting the very first person makes more sense, never mind everyone knew doc was in the top 3.
It would make sense to protect in that group.

[farside22]

Okay, here's the theory. Keep in mind, that

according to the information we know, it's most probably NOT true.

I also thought that there is a Neighbourhood.
MathDino posted on Day1 that if Siv flipped scum I'd be FoS-ed by him. On Day2 he started advocating that I'm very-super-pro-town.
A possible answer for this change would have been if MathDino had Neighbourized Alchemist and Alchemist investigated me. (From a Neighbourizer it's one of the best strategies to get the Cop and advocate his/her investigations so as to protect him.)
Alchemist was Nightkilled and MathDino posted that HE had been investigated by the Cop at Night1.

This story would make perfect sense if MathDino were Mafia Neighbourizer, regardless of Ollie's alignment.

BUT, if it gets confirmed that both MathDino and Alchemist weren't in the same Neighbourhood, my theory is false. Right now, this seems to be the case.

So, if anyone can confirm that my theory is either true or false, please do so!

Just going to deny this and move on then

But, back to the original topic.
Ollie's Night 2 choice for his protection doesn't make much sense. (Whom did he protect on Night 1? Has he written that and have I missed it?) Therefore, it's probable that he's scum.

But, we have plenty of time. We should get reads on the other players too, as usual. In addition: who's town and who's scum if Ollie flips scum? And what if he flips town?

Still thinking flubber/adrien and finally droog.
Those are my only 3 scum reads at this time.

[farside22]

Flubber and Adrien cant both be scum, everyone forgets this.

/ means or.
I think one or the other for different reasons.

Who's the highest living draft?

Why do you ask?

Okay, here's the theory. (blah, blah

Just going to deny this and move on then

Okay, the theory has been dropped. (But, you all must understand that I needed to rule out this possibility.)

I'll re-join the conversation as I'm back from the swimming pool, where I'm going right now.

Fair enough.
You understand my paranoia.

Review droog, reads a little quiet for me

This bothers me.

Just got out of a game with droog-town. He was active throughout the game, until LYLO. During LYLO, he started to get real quiet because he was the confirmed town that had to choose between the last remaining town/scum. So he has stumped.

Theory: droog getting quiet = droog getting stumped.

I see no reason why droog should be stumped by this game at this point, based on what is going on in the thread. This leads me to believe that perhaps there is something outside of the thread that is stumping droog. Like how to play in accordance with his alignment.

I only have one game reference and I just recall him being very pro-active. Lots to say and lots of reasoning.
So the quiet bothers me in comparison.

[farside22]

What were you waiting for Flubber, before you hammered?

[farside22]

WHEN

I flip town the townies on my wagon should all reconsider your entire scum hunting ethos. It would be a waste of time responding to you all individually, it's one big tunnelling session, something I learned not to do in my very first game. When I'm lynched start looking at these guys as you'll know my intentions are pro town...

No idea about night 1 but last night I thought that the scum wouldn't be as obvious as

Golden Mole

was being, all over me like a rash, so I thought he was just a tunnelling townie & protected him. What about that doesn't make sense btw???

Mathdino

tunnelled Victor so same reasoning for almost protecting him really, as I'm reading them both as town. GM is still all over me & is gonna feel like an idiot when this lynch goes through. The scum will be more in the shadows IMO so I'd look at these guys...

Gonna hazard a guess that at least one of

Formerfish

or

Adrien

are scum with the speed of that wagon & their reasons. Adrien in particular, idiotic reason for voting for me this time, intent to hammer Victor last lynch.

Flubbernugget

quick hammering before a role claim was anti town & I think on a site dedicated to mafia we should be holding players to higher standards than that. I'd be looking at lynching him on that alone on a site I play on with alot of newbies, nevermind here.

I can't forget about

farside

not mentioning that Victor was L-1 either, That was as blatant as scum slips get, she seems to have you all fooled though so fair play to her. She comes across as quick to fall in line with the townie thinking & that's probably why she's being town read. If she is an experienced player then I would have her as definite scum.

(Whom did he protect on Night 1? Has he written that and have I missed it?) Therefore, it's probable that he's scum.

& here we see why town will lose this game. Try actually reading my post, I didn't write it in hieroglyphics! I said who Ank protected night 1.

Does this forum do dead threads where just the dead people post btw?

Yea this is crap.
1) I wasn't the only one who saw the l-1
2) No one hammered. So unless you thought,which you don't say, all 3 scum where on the wagon the reason your scum reading me is crap
3) my experience! Lol! God cheap shot and meaniless. GC has just as much experience.

lol

Ollie playing the "disappointed dad" scum card:

"townies on my wagon should all reconsider your entire scum hunting ethos"
"& I think on a site dedicated to mafia we should be holding players to higher standards than that"

(Not saying that Ollie doesn't have a point about the badness of Flubber hammering before a claim, but holy crap that tone is so scummy.)

Disappointed dad? That one I haven't heard.

Anem: what I know from GC he mentioned in our last game self doubt. I think he probably doesn't want to over think things. No way is GC scum if Ollie is.

[farside22]

Looks at GC start date.
Looks at Ollie
Looks at my start date
Looks at Ollie

Fake reasoning.

[farside22]

Anyone paying attention at home with this argument will note that Ollie has yet to explain why he did not protect alchrmist yet.
Plus calling adrien scum with Flubber after adrien switched votes is completely non-sense.
Finally most of what I see is I'm the doc how dare you want to lynch me, whiling spewing reads on players that are, at least in my view, crappy.

[farside22]

/ means or.
I think one or the other for different reasons.

Hey farside, can you expand on this? I'm coming around to the Flubber-or-Adrien-no-matter-what thing but kinda out of PoE.

Alchemist21 - 4 - Cop

davesaz - 6 - Jailkeeper

Ollie - 8 - Doc/Roleblock

Siveure DtTrikyp - 13 - VT doc

Green Crayons - 15 VT tracker
Aneninen - 1 -
Formerfish - 1 -

Victor- 3 - 1-shot Vig

farside22 - 3
Mathdino - 5 -
wgeurts - 5
Flubbernugget - 2
Adrien - 2
droog - 2

I'm inclined to trust farside on the Ollie/GC issue with the exception of the possibility that the team is Ollie/GC/farside. I think Anen and Former are town, mostly. So it pretty much boils down to {Ollie, farside/wgeurts, Flubber/Adrien}.

And yeah, Ollie publicising the whole night 3 vig thing is exactly why I want scumspects for tomorrow.

Universal Backup, if you block this kill, I swear to god I will lynch you on sight.

you made a statement in the game here:

Flubber and Adrien cant both be scum, everyone forgets this.

I thought you were referencing the post I made here.

Okay, here's the theory. Keep in mind, that

according to the information we know, it's most probably NOT true.

I also thought that there is a Neighbourhood.
MathDino posted on Day1 that if Siv flipped scum I'd be FoS-ed by him. On Day2 he started advocating that I'm very-super-pro-town.
A possible answer for this change would have been if MathDino had Neighbourized Alchemist and Alchemist investigated me. (From a Neighbourizer it's one of the best strategies to get the Cop and advocate his/her investigations so as to protect him.)
Alchemist was Nightkilled and MathDino posted that HE had been investigated by the Cop at Night1.

This story would make perfect sense if MathDino were Mafia Neighbourizer, regardless of Ollie's alignment.

BUT, if it gets confirmed that both MathDino and Alchemist weren't in the same Neighbourhood, my theory is false. Right now, this seems to be the case.

So, if anyone can confirm that my theory is either true or false, please do so!

Just going to deny this and move on then

But, back to the original topic.
Ollie's Night 2 choice for his protection doesn't make much sense. (Whom did he protect on Night 1? Has he written that and have I missed it?) Therefore, it's probable that he's scum.

But, we have plenty of time. We should get reads on the other players too, as usual. In addition: who's town and who's scum if Ollie flips scum? And what if he flips town?

Still thinking flubber/adrien and finally droog.
Those are my only 3 scum reads at this time.

Also Droog should be on that scum list. Why is he not mentioned?

[farside22]

oh ollie is ankamius
id be up for lynching on those groundsa lone

((but thats not going to cut it as an explanation this late in
is it))

Still thinking flubber/adrien and finally droog.
Those are my only 3 scum reads at this time.

youre aware we all picked 2 right

I wasn't aware of that.
I forgot who picked what and focused on scum reads.

literally farside you suspect all 3 #2 players
what kind of scum do you take me for

A player doing less then nothing, pinging my scum radar.

[farside22]

Not sure why my list is bad or scummy. Only I think droog is scum here. Others have gert, but adrien and Flubber on the majority of players list.
Are you butt hurt being called out as scum droog or focusing only on your name on my list?

[farside22]

VOTE: adrien

Why does Ollie read town.

Don't disagree with you about adrien.

[farside22]

I want thoughts as to what Ollie's 'dayvig' reaction is like, with the caveat that scum have daytalk.

Seriously SERIOUSLY reconsidering Ollie wagon.

You dayvig gerts, so...?

I don't think about what if before a flip.
Just who I'm scum reading. I'm stubborn that way.

[farside22]

VOTE: adrien

Why does Ollie read town.

Don't disagree with you about adrien.

if you don't mind i'd love to flip the question back to you real quick, replacement and all

how much of your ollie read is predicated on his scumread on you?

because tbh i think the cross-suspicion from both of you looks like it's not completely independent of each other's scumreads?

and ollie reads town because of his "ok-ness" with being lynched

it'd be a tricky play for scum to pull off and i'm not going to assume that much of a dec.10 joindate

unless he wants to enlighten me iwth some offsite play?

My scum read has nothing to do with his crappy case.
He has claimed doc.
There was one other person above him on the list that had a pr (there is no doubt alchemist had a pr) he claims to have protected a claimed vt in the game.

[farside22]

Someone should ask ollie why he thinks adrien/flubber are scum together.
you know since I when I ask I get shit responses.

[farside22]

I read anem post: view is he's town and I see paraniod and thinking things that are a bit crazy in my view, but I enjoyed the ride.

I don't even see any ration reason from Ollie.
Seriously his scum reads are mostly just yelling at people and calling them scum.
That's the extent of his scum reads.
Some is copy/paste of things said by others.

[farside22]

I faked a doc claim in a game farside was in, did pretty well with it to. If it wasn't for a shitty set up and overpowered town PR I would have gotten away with it too.

I forgot about that because you were in a hydra.
I remember now, one of the players questioned your "protection" and I think one night you claimed to be role blocked.
You guys lurked so badly that game.

[farside22]

I read anem post: view is he's town and I see paraniod and thinking things that are a bit crazy in my view, but I enjoyed the ride.

I don't even see any ration reason from Ollie.
Seriously his scum reads are mostly just yelling at people and calling them scum.
That's the extent of his scum reads.
Some is copy/paste of things said by others.

We've disagreed a lot this game, farside, but finally we see eye to eye. Ollie has one more post to impress me or I'm putting my vote back on him.

Why do you agree? What do you like about my thought here? Vague just doesn't work for me.

[farside22]

Feeling sick and foggy. Don't expect much from me for another day or 2.

[farside22]

@farside:

what do you make of the fact that Ollie insisted on calling me town among those who voted him (e.g., Post 1368), and then zeroed in on calling me tunneling town who just wouldn't critically reevaluate their suspicions?

I mean, sounds like the golden defense against GC. Especially if you had just played with me in Murder on the Orient Express, where I revealed that to be a major problem of self-doubt I have when town.

I hadn't noticed you. I was pretty tunneled on Ollie.

[farside22]

I don't understand your response.

I thought you were asking about you.
Am I missing something? I'm still a bit cold foggy.

[farside22]

I was asking what do you think of Ollie's D3 strategy directed towards me.

He targeted me - and not any of his other voters - with the very flaw that I vocalized in Orient Express, which is a game that only you and I from this game played together.

I don't get the similarities, but to be fair I barely read what scrambles said in the game you are referring to.
I'll tell you what I saw with Ollie that I remember.
He had illogical attacks based on no actual reasoning. He attacked me for just plain experience, did I find it odd he ignored you, yes, do I think that implies scum for you, no.
There is no correlation as scum buddies based on the attack you had on anka, then ollie the next day.
I think the weirdest thing was Ollie's fight and then hammer at the end.
Maybe he knew he was done.

Right now I'm leaning Adrien and Droog. Just add Orc based on yesterday's interaction.

[farside22]

i would actually like the person you picked night 2 to come forward
does anyone think it likely scum would neighborize with scum?
if not than id bet at least one of you's town

Please explain this thought process as I don't recall any scum read you've had on fish.

Yeah but Ank (Ollie) was the first scum to get a pick. If I'm reason things right.

I get what you're saying, and I think it would certainly have some weight if true, but amended to 2nd scum pick I don't know how I feel about it.



How do you feel about folks, FF?

I had an early town read when fishy entered the game. I agreed with his views on ven.
He's been quiet here and there but droog still pings me.
I know I was asked about that scum read, I'll get an indepth case together on Thursday.

[farside22]

Vote: fish

Muhahawhawha!

[farside22]

Farside's not in at this time.
Please leave a name, message and anything that you can.

BEEP!

[farside22]

Vote: farside

Okay I love you, bu-bye

[farside22]

^^^ I agree on all the points.

@farside:

why the 1637 slip? In the dead thread it looked like you did it on purpose?

I did.
Just had no time and had thought people might look at my interaction with adriene more.