Open 623 (White Flag) - A Moment in Time (Over)

[AlwaysInnocent]

/confirm town

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: AI
first player on the player list is scum 60% of the time, every time.

I am confirmed town right now. Scum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

If I don't know what I'm doing the Mafia surely can't counter my play.

LOL. They won't have to in that case.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: NotAnAlt

Only one post. Obviously a lurker.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Lol you guys realize 21 was a joke right.

Emphasizing that you were joking in RVS is usually a scumtell. I will vote you on D2. I have to lynch your lurker scum buddy first. Don't worry. Your turn will come.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Lol you guys realize 21 was a joke right.

Emphasizing that you were joking in RVS is usually a scumtell. I will vote you on D2. I have to lynch your lurker scum buddy first. Don't worry. Your turn will come.

Then why aren't you voting SS?

Because I have found two scum and I cannot vote for both at the same time. That's why. Don't tell me how to play this game! *shakes fist*

[AlwaysInnocent]

Also SS is a terrible abbreviation.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: Phantom

Doesn't want people to think about associations. Does he want to encourage people not to think about any associations with him in it? Probably.

[AlwaysInnocent]

AI must be a godplayer, three scumgets in three pages

I'm the bestest scumhunter in the world.

[AlwaysInnocent]

PC, Cow and Titus can go in the town pile.
SS and Rhazh can go in the scum pile.
Cerberus can be in the null pile alone.

Why Titus?

[AlwaysInnocent]

AI can go in the scum pile.
Wasn't a slip really, just scummy behavior in general.
P-Edit: She's wagoning in the right place.

What the hell are you talking about?

[AlwaysInnocent]

AI can go in the scum pile.
Wasn't a slip really, just scummy behavior in general.
P-Edit: She's wagoning in the right place.

What the hell are you talking about?

Your vote on PC was bad. You said SS was a scumread but didn't vote him in 44 which was also bad.

Oh, you're right. My vote on Phantom was bad.

Allow me to correct myself.

VOTE: SirCakez

[AlwaysInnocent]

What a vote to change to when I scum read you. And only after someone else voted first too.
I thought my reads reasoning was fairly clear at the moment. Ask about which ones you don't understand.

Big mistake to draw my attention to you. Townreading Titus at this point is just idiotic. Or a scum tactic. I think it is the latter.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Oh, and I had not noticed someone else voted for you already. That person is probably very smart.

[AlwaysInnocent]

You believe Titus to be scum?

It is not impossible, but any town player that knows Titus at least a little bit knows that she is very deceptive and manipulative, so townreading her is quite foolish if you are town. I assume town-SirCakez to be smarter than that. You think you could buddy her like that? Think again.

[AlwaysInnocent]

so townreading her at this point is quite foolish if you are town*

[AlwaysInnocent]

@AI: SS+Rhaz->PC->Cakez (?)

What?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Smart, Rz, and likely AI.

That's the team.

We can draw out this game scum, or you can put up the white flag. We can resolve this game in 300 posts, or we can draw it out.

Likely AI, eh? You're scum too, Titus?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Something_Smart is probably town.

Titus and SirCakez are playing a silly game. I am not sure why they think that buddying each other wouldn't be super-obvious.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Speaking of buddying look at that first sentence.

Nice try, but it doesn't work like that.

[AlwaysInnocent]

SirCakez wagon is really ugly.

Lurkers commenting on the ugliness of small wagons. It only makes me more confident that at least one of you is scum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

SirCakez wagon is really ugly.

Lurkers commenting on the ugliness of small wagons. It only makes me more confident that at least one of you is scum.

I wouldn't classify NAA as a lurker.

You're wrong then.

[AlwaysInnocent]

1. Maybe you tend to read newbies more harshly (except for Dewy ).
2. You must think we're stupid, too.
3. Not to mention your case is really weak.

Give me some specific examples of SirCakez being obvious town.

1. Nope. Welcome to life outside the newbie queue. You do things that scum do, you get scumread. I am not the sole voter.
2. Absolutely not. I am reading you as desperate scum, not stupid. Why did you feel insulted? Do you feel your scumgame has been bad?

3. Why would you have 5 votes if my case was weak? It isn't. You'd be at L minus 1 but Cerb never votes so we have to wait on subs.

Town know Sir is town.

Also, I didn't explicitly say this before, or at least not in the detail I should have, but..your case is weak. Super duper weak. Not strong. "RVS push plus retraction claiming it's a joke is scum!" I mean sure, I get the logic, town wouldn't feel the need to be extra defensive there and pull super far back from an RVS vote, and would instead just shrug it off because it's fucking RVS, but why the hell can't it just be a personality quirk? SS and yourself know each other, is it really so unreasonable for him to feel the need to clarify that his suspicion on you was a joke, given that he might have enjoyed playing with you before and wanted to cooperate rather than be antagonistic from P2?

That btw, is how weak I think the RVS vote is a joke thing is, btw. I think even the chance that someone I don't even know might just have a personality that inclined them to make a joke about it outfuckingweighs that "tell".

The only reason why I might consider SS as scum is the move to vote the counterwagon to himself. That is survivalism, which might be alignment indicative, depending on how far it goes.

I sort of understand your POV, so I am going to put you at fence-town.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Is this one of those "subtle but not really" LAMIST moves? "I see where you're coming from, so I'm thinking you might be town, because expressing a POV I can relate to means you're more likely to share my alignment...which is town, btw guys. Totally town."

I mean, I don't really see why expressing something which should be obvious to everyone should give me any town credit with anyone at all. :/

Yes, you're right to be skeptical, which makes me even more confident that you are town.

The thing is that you say things that scum would be hesitant to say. If we allow ourselves to assume that Something_Smart is town, then we can say that scum are less likely to point out that Something_Smart didn't really say anything that odd.

Also, scum are generally happy when people townread them, so they are more likely to keep silent about this. Town are more likely to argue against undeserved townreads (as you would call them), because sometimes scum buddy up with town players like that, so it can be used as part of their scumhunting game.

[AlwaysInnocent]

My RVS strategy and post-RVS strategy basically amounts to mudthrowing at as many people as I can.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Something_Smart is probably town.

Speaking of buddying look at that first sentence.

Actually, I get the feeling that AI is more whiteknighting me. I could definitely see a SirCakez-AI team playing both sides of the wagon and soft double bussing.
Cerb and Titus on the other hand feel town to me.
Phantom is annoying and could go either way. Rhazh as well.
Pistachi0n is ok, seems honest and genuine enough.
Yonom's done very little except jump onto L-2 with scummy reasoning. Also, interestingly, she made almost the same joke as me, and caught no flak at all for it...

Lolz. The paranoia sure makes you look town.

[AlwaysInnocent]

you know what
VOTE: AlwaysInnocent
This is both whiteknighting and buddying, and it's unacceptable.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I haven't really changed my opinion about them, I just have bigger fish to fry now. They are mild scumreads, you are moderate scum, and AI is scum.
Also my reads can be really capricious in the early phases of the game. Just a heads up.

I still believe you are town. A foolish townie, but still.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I'm almost never confident day 1.
But that doesn't mean I don't have reasons.
And I haven't changed any of those reads. I voted Rhazh because he was mildly scummy. Then you were scummier so I voted you. Then AI was scummier so I voted him.
You're basically saying that once you have one scumread you should ignore everyone else and death tunnel that person. That's antitown.

I agree with you man.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: Rhazh
Attacking people without voting to support it, making unprompted references to what the scum want or do, inconsistencies in play. Overall feels like he is trying to fit in and play like everyone else is.

This doesn't sound like "mildly scummy".

Now you are nitpicking.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Rhazh seems townish. I am going to put him at fence-town as well.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Townies usually have confidence in their scumreads.

Lol.

Now I am sure you're scum (ironically, but yes).

[AlwaysInnocent]

LOL. What is it with these paranoid townies.

[AlwaysInnocent]

This is disgusting buddying..

Stop rejecting me and accept my town love.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Time for a read list.

Read List 1.1

{AlwaysInnocent}

{Something_Smart}

{RhazhBash, Cerberus v666}

{Yonom, pistachi0n, Viva La Gloria, Victor_Mortimer}

{Titus}

{TheCow, Phantom}

{SirCakez, NotAnAlt}

[AlwaysInnocent]

Something_Smart, please fix your read list. I am in the wrong place.

[AlwaysInnocent]

SS why make such a big case on Rhazh if it's "only so serious"?
AI's reads list is awful. Why is NotAnAlt top scum? Why are Cow and PC scum?

I am just that smart.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Oh dear.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: Rhazh
Attacking people without voting to support it, making unprompted references to what the scum want or do, inconsistencies in play. Overall feels like he is trying to fit in and play like everyone else is.

Oh my god SirCakez I totally see your point
This is like the biggest case ever

I love your sarcasm.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I am scumreading him for switching votes around 4 times in the first four pages then basically OMGUSing me when I scumread him.

Yes, switching my vote that many times makes totally sense as a scum gambit.

[AlwaysInnocent]

It looks fake because he changed votes way too easily for someone who just said, "this is a vote on scum".

That is just a provocative playstyle. Nothing wrong with it.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Why are we still discussing this? Something_Smart is obvious town.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Not confident. I thought it was pretty clear.

but you said his tone was confident

His tone is confident but his actions do not reflect actually being confident.

So you mean he is bluffing. Must be scum then.

[AlwaysInnocent]

@Cerb, That post was not a joke. You'll find I don't joke much. I was detecting a sudden desire by Rh to talk theory, drag the game down and not focusing on SS. I was pressuring there. I am rather surprised you find me using the word "Discuss" as a joke. You know I am super serious compared to most.

@all, Can anyone give me a reason on Cakez beyond he's obvtown and pushing scum...like really

Titus is scum.

Discuss.

[AlwaysInnocent]

guys drop it about the avatar
how hard is it to read a name anyway

Pretty confident. This discussion is going in circles.

Okay then SirCakez, answer this: What makes you so confident? Do you really think you are that good at Mafia?

The reactions of you and others throughout the thread is making me confident. My townreads are agreeing with me is also making me confident.
And I don't think I'm good at mafia honestly.

So basically, confbias. Have any specific reasons?

The series of posts I quoted earlier. That progression of thinking was one I don't see coming from town.
The "It was a joke" thing. That's been hashed over a ton already.

So basically your argument boils down to "he seems too confident but he isn't" and "he joked in RVS".
I've already discussed the former. For the latter please read my wallpost to Titus in its entirety.

AI for the love of god could you please give a reason for anything you say.

I am gonna say "gut", the ultimate joker card in this game.

[AlwaysInnocent]

-----AlwaysInnocent - Very very scummy player. OMGUSing, making weird unexplained comments, buddying, generally useless, terrible readslist.

I know you are scum and need to play according to your win condition, but why do you need to insult me? "Generally useless. Terrible read list." It hurts. You're mean.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Apologies if that was taken wrongly. It was a read based on play, nothing more.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I officially can't judge sarcasm.

I personally don't mind, but I know that sometimes people can be really harsh.

[AlwaysInnocent]

So @AlwaysInnocent, mind answering the question I asked you earlier?

Tacit knowledge

[AlwaysInnocent]

How is AI top town?

Read my signature.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Yonom town.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: TheCow

I am never townread by town.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: TheCow

I am never townread by town.

Uhhhhh

What seems to be the problem?

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: TheCow

I am never townread by town.

Uhhhhh

What seems to be the problem?

I think the problem is pretty obvious. That vote is terrible >.>

No, it's not. It's a vote on scum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: TheCow

I am never townread by town.

Uhhhhh

What seems to be the problem?

I think the problem is pretty obvious. That vote is terrible >.>

No, it's not. It's a vote on scum.

So I'm guessing you have a better reason than "I'm never townread by town"?

Probably.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Read List 1.2

{AlwaysInnocent}

{Something_Smart, Cerberus v666}

{RhazhBash, Yonom}

{Viva La Gloria, Victor_Mortimer}

{SirCakez, Phantom}

{Titus, pistachi0n}

{TheCow, NotAnAlt}

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: TheCow

I am never townread by town.

....Yeah, other people have already said this is really bad, and I'm going to agree with them. This is awful. It seems like you're trying to seem like you know you're town by making enemies with someone who's townreading you. It reeks of some kind of gambit, probably scum.

It is actually an excellent vote. All the reactions I get have been worth it.

[AlwaysInnocent]

AI, why are you ignoring your top townread? Please explain your read on me.

Same explanation I gave about Cerberus.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: TheCow

I am never townread by town.

....Yeah, other people have already said this is really bad, and I'm going to agree with them. This is awful. It seems like you're trying to seem like you know you're town by making enemies with someone who's townreading you. It reeks of some kind of gambit, probably scum.

It is actually an excellent vote. All the reactions I get have been worth it.

So you were reaction testing? What have you learned?

Reaction testing + voting scum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I know you were reaction testing, I'm asking what you've learned from the reactions you got.

Obviously it informed my recently updated read list.

[AlwaysInnocent]

AI that reads list is so obviously half-assed that you didn't even bother to substitute in replacements.

I forgot.

Half-assing reads is basically a scumclaim because it indicates that your reads are fake.

They are not fake. To think this is a "scumclaim" is plainly absurd.

What did you even say about Cerberus? Stop dodging the question and just give a few sentences explaining why you are so sure I am town.

You insist on knowing why I townread you. Scum generally don't care, like I said before. It is not so hard to understand. I think I have made this clear more than once already.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Okay, but what about my and other people's reactions caused you to change your reads?

It's a secret.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Lol. Consistency on D1.

[AlwaysInnocent]

If you are not constantly revising your beliefs, especially in the beginning; if you are not willing to change your mind; if you are not willing to escape your tunnels...

Then you are not playing the game right.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I feel that many questions have already been answered. Do people even bother to read what I say? I have already explained why I townread Something_Smart in post #398.

[AlwaysInnocent]

The inconsistency isn't in your reads. It's in how you react to others statements about your reads, or their reads on people you have a differing opinion on. I also don't expect people to always vote the same people, but I expect a trail of logic along your narrative/some explanation for why the reads have shifted rhe way they have.

Like why I care more about some people townreading Titus than others? It is just something I chose to focus on. Context is also important.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Yes, why you care about some people townreading titus more than others,and why you chose to ignore townreads made by the same person on other scumreads of yours.

Because some people I know better than others (I won't say I know anyone here that well, but OK), and I think they are familiar enough with Titus that they should be aware why you shouldn't townread her for shallow reasons.

[AlwaysInnocent]

So you're familiar with SirCakez, and know he has had experience with Titus, and are not familiar with SS?

Right.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Huh?

[AlwaysInnocent]

In that case you may not be the scum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

-the

[AlwaysInnocent]

AI can you link to all your completed scumgames please?

Newbie 1666 is the only one on this site.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Perhaps this is an effort to try a different

scum

town

playstyle?

[AlwaysInnocent]

A good point
One that I figured you'd be more likely to mention as scum
I would more see town saying "this isn't actually that different"

Oh, but it is different. Why would it be similar? People learn and adapt.

[AlwaysInnocent]

How is it different?

More importantly, how is it better?

If I explained that, it would negatively impact the strategy.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Although I sort of already hinted to it.

[AlwaysInnocent]

1 & 3: I get bad vibes from the word "paranoid", mostly because I've never used it as town, but used it successfully multiple times as scum.

Keyword here is: "I". You have never used it as town. This doesn't mean that other townies don't use it. What's wrong with it anyway?

2 & 4: Buddying.

(1) I townread you. There's nothing wrong with that.
(2) I joked a bit about you thinking I buddied you.

5: Already been discussed.
6: Not explaining reads is blatantly antitown.

Sigh. You know, I used to say the same thing when I encountered players like Ranger, but I quickly realized that there was something to their playstyle. If you are interested, it was Blitz 11.

[AlwaysInnocent]

1. If you're paranoid it means your townread on someone is too strong. By calling me paranoid AI is implying that I am townreading him but for some reason don't feel good about that townread.

Uh. That is not what paranoia is.

2. There's agreeing, and there's trying to get someone to like you. I am most certainly not "obvious town". Also the post AI purported to agree with contained an allegation that AI was scummy. (Pedit: you never gave the original reason for townreading me. Something must have started the circular logic.)

I am not saying that to get you to "like" me. I did give reasons for townreading you. However, even if I didn't give them, it would still not necessarily be circular logic.

6. Okay, let me rephrase that. Sharing your reads without explaining them does nothing to help town.

You do realize this is D1, right? I am not sure, but the deadline probably is still a week away, right? So let me try this. (I do explain them to some extent, though.)

[AlwaysInnocent]

Thanks for for ruining it, Eagle.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Eagle is scum, maybe.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Well, since you like explaining things, you can be my spokesperson. I just do what I want and you provide the reasons for my actions. If you are town, of course.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I thought it was funny. No, but it has a serious undertone: at some point I will have to explain myself, that is true. If other people start explaining why I did things when I don't, then that is a bit of a weird situation.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: Something Smart
I am going to do a quick catch up, consider that placeholder.

Placeholders are generally not on large wagons for a reason.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Firebringer town.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Firebringer town.

Pics or it didn't happen.

Firebringer scum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Nah. You're town.

[AlwaysInnocent]

@EE, Nope.

My gut will tell me how to read Firebringer.

Hey, you wanna play pin the tail on the scums Firebringer?

I lead this town Titus!
And I have to figure out if you are scum, you are at null right now.

Don't you feel that something is off about Titus?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I want droog to put his vote down because he's been dancing around it for a while now but hasn't actually put the vote down.

Really? He hasn't even voted yet?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Yay, replacements. I still don't understand how easy people find it to be replaced. I have yet to be replaced in a game (and this includes my complete experience on other sites).

Sometimes it seems that people take replacements too lightly. It is really annoying if people just do it because it is considered "normal" and they just have a little less time (I know that sometimes it cannot be helped; I am completely aware of this). It fucks up a game. Sometimes you end up playing a completely different game with completely different people because of the replacements.

Is it so much to ask for a game without any replacements, or at most one?

</end_rant>

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: Titus

[AlwaysInnocent]

What would everyone's opinions be of an EE wagon? I'd prefer that to SirCakez, because I have given my reasons for voting SirCakez but this is starting to feel more and more like a mislynch. I'm trying not to tunnel too badly here.

I appreciate the way you don't tunnel people. It sounds authentic.

[AlwaysInnocent]

No, a Titus or TheCow wagon is probably better.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Like it wasn't a 180.

Yes, it could have been π radians instead.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Phantom, your reads are terrible.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Stop this insane lynch. Or else I'm going to kill you all.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Titus is the scum pushing this mislynch. So we need to get her lynched instead of you.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: SomethingSmart

I think we'll get information from this lynch. If SS flips town, I'm going to be looking at Titus for scum tomorrow. If SS flips scum, I'm going to pursue AI.

Bad Pistachi0n. Lynching for information is bad. You lynch because you want to lynch scum. Information is secondary.

Don't lynch obvious town because you want "information". That is scummy as fuck.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Titus the benefit of the doubt? *laughs hard*

[AlwaysInnocent]

I'm not townreading Eagle, by the way. I have him at null currently. I don't know about that guy.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I have not any experience with Eagle, to be honest. He could just be pressured into jumping on the wagon. I don't know. Or is he opportunistic scum.

But I have seen Titus play and she is generally able to form quick and reliable reads on people. The fact that she is still scumreading you, and pushing for your lynch, when you are obvious town, means she is not being sincere.

Furthermore, she "scumreads" me, but she has not said anything about me other than that. Does she not want to draw too much attention to herself, knowing that she is framing your ass off? When she was town, she gave me a really hard time when she was scumreading me. But now she is more concerned with framing you, it seems.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I don't think anyone is scumreading EE right now except you.

How about reconsidering Something_Smart as town, if you are town?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Yes, but we should not let the Something_Smart lynch happen. It is a foolish lynch. Proponents of that lynch should at least postpone that lynch one day, because it is extremely unlikely that Something_Smart is scum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Oh, I'm in complete and utter agreement with you.

This sentence really gives me the shivers.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Look who's talking.

I know, it is ironic. It can be hard to distinguish genuine townreading and scummy buddying.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I'm not trying to buddy you whatsoever.

I'm trying to lynch Titus. You are helping me lynch Titus.

We are partners of circumstance, my friend.

Partners of circumstance? That sounds like you want to say we are of different alignments, instead of being naturally aligned.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Oh, I'm in complete and utter agreement with you.
Like I said, we should run up Titus and make her explain her reads better.
She can't then we lynch her, she can, we can look into other lynches.

Why is everybody ignoring me? How does this logic not apply even better for EE?

I am not ignoring you, but there is a lack of interest in Eagle or Titus, it seems.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Also, Viva La Gloria, why are you not voting Titus if you think we are "partners of circumstance"? You do not seem to be that dedicated to your goal.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Titus is town for me: here's why:

As scum she wants town to tear itself apart. She wants chaos and she'll kind of press chaos or try to make it happen: fighting amongst town, etc. I know. I have hydraed with her as scum. However. This game she gave us an obvious direction. She pushed it. And kind of left. What does she accomplish from this if she's scum and ss is town? A single mislynch? When town already usually mislynches day one without her help? And then what? We've sat around talking, we have our strong town reads. She lets a town bloc form and tomorrow a lot of people are talking of lynching her if she's wrong. She's drawn a lot of unnecessary attention to herself and she starts in a bad spot tomorrow if she's scum. A nasty one, actually. It's high risk no reward. Not optimal play, in fact quite suboptimal play as scum

Good story, but you are (intentionally?) overlooking one important fact: this does not explain why she is still pushing for the lynch of obvious town.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Eagle, I'm getting close to the point of wanting to lynch your ass.

[AlwaysInnocent]

AI, not everyone is capable of seeing that I am obvious town. But regardless of that, your feelings about Eagle are in the right place.

Not everyone, but some people are just pretending not to see it.

[AlwaysInnocent]

SS's flailing looks like it's from town. I'm not voting that.

How is he flailing?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Fight me. It's like kicking a puppy.

The puppy defense. Now that is a scumtell.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Every crook and villain hides behind cuteness.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I am asking you why you think Something_Smart is flailing. I am sure you know what you were saying?

[AlwaysInnocent]

SS's flailing looks like it's from town. I'm not voting that.

How is he flailing?

He's flailing.

Watch his reads. They're only feelings based on who's attacking him and who isn't. Your reads are kind of like this as well. I suggest you stop.

As to your point about Titus, being wrong about someone does not make anyone scum, and I doubt she's wrong on SS anyways. Titus has been wrong before as town.

AI, not everyone is capable of seeing that I am obvious town. But regardless of that, your feelings about Eagle are in the right place.

Not everyone, but some people are just pretending not to see it.

Titus can't see it because she's blinded by her own confidence in her "tell" (most likely).
Eagle is pretending not to see it. That's why he can't make a logical case on me.

Why did you respond to Titus the way you did on page one?

I'm not taking suggestions from scum. But thanks anyway.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I like how AI's scumread on Eagle suddenly developed only when Eagle started to get pressured by other players.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlati ... _causation

[AlwaysInnocent]

I like how AI's scumread on Eagle suddenly developed only when Eagle started to get pressured by other players.

...I've been pressuring Eagle for a while?

Pedit: Sorry Eagle I misread your question. I thought you meant why I responded to Titus taking me seriously by saying "lol you guys realize that was a joke right".
I thought Titus's "you're scum with Rhazh" was a joke, so I joked back.

Peditedit: AI, Eagle is right, stop using Wikipedia to defend yourself.

Are you seriously taking suggestions from scum?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Titus you remind me of someone I play with on another site in a good way.

I like how AI's scumread on Eagle suddenly developed only when Eagle started to get pressured by other players.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlati ... _causation

I think it does in this case.

I like how AI's scumread on Eagle suddenly developed only when Eagle started to get pressured by other players.

...I've been pressuring Eagle for a while?

Pedit: Sorry Eagle I misread your question. I thought you meant why I responded to Titus taking me seriously by saying "lol you guys realize that was a joke right".
I thought Titus's "you're scum with Rhazh" was a joke, so I joked back.

Peditedit: AI, Eagle is right, stop using Wikipedia to defend yourself.

I mean AI made no mention of an Eagle scumread until the pressuring from multiple players had been going on for a bit.

Of course I didn't. Except that I already was having doubts about him when he started explaining my actions.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Oh. I'm an idiot.

@Drixx why did viva la Gloria replace into a game where she has already seen the role PM of another player?

Ummm. So somebody messed up. Either droog and viva la Gloria are scum together or droog is town and viva is scum or both are town.

Drixx has already explained this. He said that he could

confirm

that Viva La Gloria did not pick up his role PM. I think it is possible to verify this, so I trust that Drixx knows what he is doing.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I would never let the same player take another slot, but if it can be confirmed, I guess it is alright. It is just confusing.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Prodding Pistachi0n.

Viva La Gloria replaces NotAnAlt.

As a note, when replacing someone who doesn't pick up their role PM, I edit the message in the outbox so that said person no longer actually has a role PM. In this case, we have a player who originally signed up and then got busy replacing back in. I have confirmed that they did not see their original role PM and therefore they only have knowledge of the slot they are replacing into. If you have any questions, please drop me a PM. ~Drixx

Oh, I just saw this. Ok. Still, I have a nasty feeling about this.

Does deleting it from your outbox delete it from their inbox? I need to try this.

Yes, it does. It is the same PM in the database. They share the same unique identifier.

[AlwaysInnocent]

So, Viva La Gloria could have been scum or town in slot #1, and scum or town in slot #2. There is no transfer of knowledge. So all is good.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I assume that scum will be hard defending each other in this game, so... SirCakez, Titus and Eagle could be scum together. But there's TheCow, too.

[AlwaysInnocent]

[AlwaysInnocent]

Great quickhammer, TheCow. This surely makes you look town, especially if Something_Smart flips scum.

(Sacasm.)

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: Titus

[AlwaysInnocent]

Titus' first vote was Something_Smart. It was never changed, neither did Titus' "read" on Something_Smart change. She never doubted herself apparently, even calling Something_Smart confirmed scum at some point. It was nothing more than rationalized voteparking. No-one can give that much importance to a silly joke and completely ignore everything else Something_Smart said.

Yeah. Titus should definitely die.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: TheCow
I like this vote better.

Not a bad choice either. You get a cookie for this.

[AlwaysInnocent]

You're probably scum when Titus flips town. I've given my reasons for townreading Titus and you're ignoring them to further your own goals.

Please convince me that Titus is town.

[AlwaysInnocent]

You're probably scum when Titus flips town. I've given my reasons for townreading Titus and you're ignoring them to further your own goals.

Please convince me that Titus is town.

-Confident in reads and not jumping between people whenever pressure moves to them

Confidence is null-indicative, especially in Titus' case. Furthermore, it doesn't make much sense to have this much confidence this early, contributing to a stupid mislynch that could have been easily prevented. I tried very hard to prevent it, but it was a failure.

-The Yonom associative "issue" was explained by her and was not scummy like Viva is pushing it to be.

I'm not sure what that was about. I was leaning town on Yonom myself.

-Did give a defense unlike how Viva is claiming. 574 for example.

But she was wrong. Furthermore, she was misrepresenting Something_Smart a lot.

-Actually has good reads.

Not really. How are they good?

[AlwaysInnocent]

If you thought I was wrong, why hammer?

Hey, Titus. You said Something_Smart would flip scum. How about reflecting on that for us? I find it really hard to believe that you are town. You're just completely ignoring it like nothing happened, even though people are addressing you.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Pisskop?

[AlwaysInnocent]

If you thought I was wrong, why hammer?

Hey, Titus. You said Something_Smart would flip scum. How about reflecting on that for us? I find it really hard to believe that you are town. You're just completely ignoring it like nothing happened, even though people are addressing you.

Saying I am scum because I was wrong is not addressing me.

No, you were not just wrong, but you also refused to listen to anyone trying to show you that Something_Smart was actually town.

[AlwaysInnocent]

How would scum-Titus handle this situation, you think?

My guess: tunnel on some townie. Get him lynched. Next day move on to the next person as if nothing happened. Repeat until victory.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Pisskop?

Pistachion. My bad.

If you wanted to show he was town, you could have tried to engage me about my other reads. Just saying I am wrong is a vacuum of disagreement.

Why should I engage your other reads when I was trying to change your mind about Something_Smart, the one you were voting for?

[AlwaysInnocent]

"Information" lynches: the perfect excuse to vote for anyone.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Pisskop?

Pistachion. My bad.

If you wanted to show he was town, you could have tried to engage me about my other reads. Just saying I am wrong is a vacuum of disagreement.

Why should I engage your other reads when I was trying to change your mind about Something_Smart, the one you were voting for?

I vote for whoever is scummiest. I thought I had a tell and was outlining his scummy behavior. If you think I am wrong, make a case someone else is scum. The only other option ever presented was obvtown SirCakez.

Yes, but you focused too much on this tell, and I was trying to show you a lot of other towntells. I did explain those. The way Something_Smart was getting paranoid about me townreading him (perceiving that as buddying) was obviously a towntell. I joked about that a bit, trying to see how paranoid he would become if I pushed it more. His responses were very convincing.

Come on. You're one of the better players here. I would have expected town-Titus to pick this up and change her vote accordingly.

[AlwaysInnocent]

TheCow, nice off-topic posts. How about actually taking a side?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Fuck this. I am still not satisfied with Titus' answers, but TheCow seems to want to get lynched really bad.

VOTE: TheCow

[AlwaysInnocent]

Titus has been far from cleared, but TheCow is obviously playing a game (besides Mafia for the smartasses) and I don't like that one bit.

TheCow was already a suspect for me. Since Titus initiated a vote on TheCow, exposing his anti-town play, he might be the better vote for now. They are unlikely to be scum buddies.

[AlwaysInnocent]

My vote is not definite, but TheCow should not take my vote lightly either.

[AlwaysInnocent]

The counter-wagon was SirCakez.

[AlwaysInnocent]

FB looks town, Pistachio looks scum, EE looks scum.

Why?

Droog's death looks like it was supposed to be inoffensive.

Where did you get that idea?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I have completely forgotten about NotAnAlt, by the way. I just now realize that Viva La Gloria replaces him. He doesn't seem to be very pleased with the TheCow wagon for some reqason.

[AlwaysInnocent]

So TheCow's behavior does not bother you at all? The way he quickhammered?

You do realize that I was suspicious of your predecessor, right?

[AlwaysInnocent]

This is scum Cow, I've seen it several times offsite. Fake scumhunting, extremely disinterested in the game, loads of shitposts, prodging frequently.

This makes sense. I had a similar feeling about him.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I understand your focus on Titus, but I don't understand why you let TheCow off the hook.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Lol, you can speedlynch me if Titus flips town.
Why are you so certain of her townflip, Cakez? Haven't seen much in the way of reasons for that.

Hm. Ok. I guess you're town. That is a pretty bold statement.

Not very wise as town, but even more irrational as scum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

"Lynch me if I'm wrong" isn't alignment indicative. Its indicative of conviction which is, coupled with other factors, indicative.

What.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Titus, why did you ignore all the towntells on Something_Smart when he was being lynched? You still have not answered this very important question.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Pistachio, EE, Titus mafia

Why Pistachio and Titus together?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Cow is my strongest town read >.>

... Are you kidding me?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I think Firebringer is town.

I just don't know why he townreads TheCow, but whatever.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: Titus
Still want the scum lynch above all else.
AI, why are you townreading Cakez?

I'm not townreading him. I am just less sure about my scumread on him. Don't worry. I will resolve this sooner or later.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: Titus

Back to Titus until she answers my question in a satisfactory manner.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Oh, wait. That would put her at L-1.

UNVOTE: Titus

I am waiting for your answer, Titus. I will put you in hammer range if you do not answer my question.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Titus, why did you ignore all the towntells on Something_Smart when he was being lynched? You still have not answered this very important question.

What kind of question is this?

You're capable of reading, aren't you?

[AlwaysInnocent]

No, I'm blind, send help.

What kind of answer are you looking for? "I ignored the towntells because I'm obviously scum"? "I was ignoring the towntells because I thought he was scummy"? "There were no towntells, this question is bullshit and you're bullshit"?

Why are you thinking of bullshit answers for Titus? Let her answer.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I think Firebringer is town.

Why?

Why are you town, according to you?

Answer this question first.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I was being rhetorical. The question itself is really the bullshit thing here. How do you call that an interrogation?

Alright. You want to be interrogated instead? Why did you hammer someone you believed to be town?

I think Firebringer is town.

Why?

Why are you town, according to you?

Answer this question first.

I'm town because I saw my role PM.

Well technically he answered the question.

Yes, it's the kind of answer that begs for a lynch.

Titus, why did you ignore all the towntells on Something_Smart when he was being lynched? You still have not answered this very important question.

I didn't see anything remotely town.

That's like asking a colorblind man why he ate the green one and not the red one.

Sure you didn't. Terrible excuse.

[AlwaysInnocent]

@Cerb, The last person who lol hammered town like that was scum. Second, his lol hammer after avoiding the wagon just is terrible. I am at meta farts with the cow (still don't know what meta there) but oh well.

Still perfectly fine with a Pistachion wagon as well. His statement that he'd want me looked into yesterday combined with his reluctance to vote me when the eventuality came to pass isn't townie either.

Now, you cannot just shit all over the existing scumhunting while providing none of your own.

Yeah, well, Titus, even though I agree that TheCow is scummy, you used a similar argument against Something_Smart ("the last person who made a joke during RVS was scum, therefore Something_Smart is scum"), when he was town.

Your case against TheCow is better, but the first argument is fallacious. Just because scum have done X doesn't mean that when someone does X they must be scum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I'm having trouble believing anyone really believes Vivas Titus argument and for that reason anyone on the Titus wagon is under extra suspicion atm for me.

Oh noes.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Oh, and I found your hydra game.
EVERYONE was calling Titus scum because of her lame play, even before she scumslipped, except for a few idiots.
Her own scum partner realized that she needed to be bussed there.
You need to stop.

EE was the one that slipped.

Also, the bus was orchestrated because lol Titus teams never bus.

That explains why you are buddying the crap out of SirCakez.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Also, the Viva lynch is not going to happen. Sorry.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: Titus

[AlwaysInnocent]

Yes. Titus. Please claim your role.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Yes. Titus. Please claim your role.

You can be filed as Derp town.

I claim Cassandra. :-p (joke)

I claim bulletproof cop.

[AlwaysInnocent]

UNVOTE: Titus

If Titus weren't so damn overconfident, it would have been a lot easier to sort her.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Good one. I'll start thinking about it while I'm cooking.

[AlwaysInnocent]

How can you move so quickly from "null-townish" to "homegirl" in one post?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Oh, right. Forgot about the read list. I will make one tomorrow. Pinky swear.

[AlwaysInnocent]

How can you move so quickly from "null-townish" to "homegirl" in one post?

The same way you can respond to the events that happen over the course of a game in one post maybe?

Pretty sure I was asking Cerberus, but I don't know. Maybe I'm blind.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I can see why you would be doubtful about Titus being scum, but it is a huge leap to go from that to "homegirl". It's just... strange.

[AlwaysInnocent]

pedit: AI, do you honestly find it likely that scum!Titus tunneled the shit out of town D1 without giving anything resembling a good reason to fall back on, and then basically said "fight me" to the person leading the push on her, when the sentiment of town was completely against her, and doing so looked scummy as hell?

Yes. She could and would have done so as scum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

It's advanced scum play. This is what Drixx calls HiPS (Hiding In Plain Sight). By playing super aggressive as scum, you can be directly responsible for mislynches and still be townread by people like you.

It's far better than the lurker or opportunistic scum game.

[AlwaysInnocent]

It's advanced scum play. This is what Drixx calls HiPS (Hiding In Plain Sight). By playing super aggressive as scum, you can be directly responsible for mislynches and still be townread by people like you.

It's far better than the lurker or opportunistic scum game.

There's a much simpler term for this that's been around longer than Drixx's term, I imagine. It's called "strongarming" and it's not what Titus is doing, there's a difference. Strongarming or HiPS is when you do scummy things and don't care about it, the only "scummy" thing she's been accused of is being wrong.

Alright. So when I'm scum, I just have to pretend to be "wrong" all the time and you would still townread me?

"Oops. Lynched a townie."
"Whoops. Lynched a townie. Again."
"Fuck. I thought he was scum for sure. Sorry."

Then I win.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I find it extremely improbable that she would take that line as scum. I disagree with AI's appraisal of Titus' scum play.

So far it is understandable.

So, yeah, she's probtown.

This is starting to get naive.

Likely as close to conftown as we're gonna get in a game without PRs.

And this is just absolutely insane.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Do you know something the rest of us don't, Cerberus?

[AlwaysInnocent]

^Doesn't realize he is dead.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: Eagle

[AlwaysInnocent]

He feels overly calculated in his actions. I don't trust that guy. Something_Smart was suspicious of him, too.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I don't like Eagle.
I don't like SirCakez.
I don't like TheCow.
I don't like Titus.

But at least one of them has to be town.

[AlwaysInnocent]

do you normally play this poorly?

Look who's talking. Mister I-think-he-is-town-but-lets-lynch-him-anyway.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I don't like Eagle.
I don't like SirCakez.
I don't like TheCow.
I don't like Titus.

But at least one of them has to be town.

If I have too many scumreads, I try to induce things assuming my reads are right and wrong.

If X is scum, what should happen? If they are town?

Try it.

Right. I already do that. Your play makes more sense as scum as town, though.

[AlwaysInnocent]

as scum than town*

[AlwaysInnocent]

D1 at least. Your game has become less scummy on D2, but that doesn't negate what happened on D1. I would have expected town-Titus to move her vote more often.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Firebringer, why do you think TheCow is town?

[AlwaysInnocent]

i'll hammer titus if you convince people to vote it

You should not be hammering anyone ever again.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I am starting to think I might be wrong about Cerberus being town.

[AlwaysInnocent]

ee is either scum or bad t b.h

Why is he bad? More likely scum then.

I mean, you lolhammered Something_Smart. I don't believe Eagle did anything of the sort.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Maybe it has to do with some people having superstitious beliefs about the position of the moon, planets, etc. affecting their daily lives. Like, when it's full moon, your luck will increase tenfold or whatever.

Not sure if this is actually the origin, but it works for me.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Or "moon" is used to refer to something extremely outlandish, making it less likely to be true. Or whatever. I don't even know why I am commenting on this.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Also, I think you are scum, so your gut is a lie!

My impression is that you know Titus quite well. Do you think your read on Titus is thus more reliable than anyone else's read on Titus?

[AlwaysInnocent]

My impression is that you know Titus quite well. Do you think your read on Titus is thus more reliable than anyone else's read on Titus?

Honestly, I am not that good at reading Titus, I always lean towards town. And a few games have made me question why I read her as town when she was scum (one game was particularly bad I read her as town mostly because she "gut" town read me. What a liar)

Right now, she isn't acting forward with pushing or trying to sort game that much to me. Which doesn't necessarily mean scum, but I think she has been much more passive lately (again no alignment indication)

Basically, I just don't trust her. If she is town, better to mislynch her before LYLO IMO [Most anti town statement ever]

So, basically, you are scumreading her "just in case" she is actually scum, right?

Not the best strategy...

[AlwaysInnocent]

So, basically, you are scumreading her "just in case" she is actually scum, right?

Not the best strategy.

I don't exactly have a good strategy if Titus is scum at LYLO.

Well, I don't like her in this game, especially her play on D1. On D2 she has been less scummy, but still. Obviously she has to do something D2 in order to compensate for what she did D1, whether as scum or as town.

But I don't approve of "just in case" lynches. We can't afford another mislynch.

[AlwaysInnocent]

@people scum reading Titus, please quote three posts of hers that show scum motivation and explain the scum and motivation behind it or move on. Pistachio and Firebringer are good lynches today and the last time I read through cerb I got a bad feeling about him as well, but I might need to look into that again.

I am not very interested in your proposed candidates. I would suggest that you look further into Cerberus' posts.

[AlwaysInnocent]

First!
VOTE: Cerberus
Die, dog of the devil.

Good choice. But I'm like, a robot dog. Not a devil dog. O.o

I don't know, innocent, maybe I'm just dumb and tired, but I'm not seeing scum here. I guess I can reread again later but I don't know how that would help. Perhaps you should share reasons for scum reading him?

I'm moving on to karnage/yonom, since I think maybe they're the next decent lynch. If I had to shoot three right now it would be fire, pistachio, karnage in that order

I am not saying you should be seeing scum. I just want you to analyze him.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Titus, are you still townreading Firebringer?

[AlwaysInnocent]

It's not so much that this game is a mindfuck game. It is just that everyone seems crazy, or scum, or with their head up their asses.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Eagle, you seem to have an answer for everybody's play. It seems that you know what is going on a little too well.