Open 633: Near Vanilla-GAME OVER

[Ranger]

i will not bow down to this ranger from the north!

I do not know what strength is in my blood, but I swear to you I will not let the White City fall, nor our people fail.

<3

[Ranger]

It'd help me to have a rundown of the game by the way.

[Ranger]

You know.

I think I might actually buy that.

VOTE: SnarkySnowman.
I'm starting my readthrough now, but I think Drunk RC is town and I think that if he's calling SS a scummy scumperson, SnarkySnowman was probably a scummy scumperson.

[Ranger]

{Ollie, Killthestory, OceanWind}
{MagnaofIllusion}
{Bellaphant, Lowell}
{Imperium}
{KTthecreeper, SnarkySnowman}

One.

[Ranger]

^KT should be Xisi, sorry for the oversight.

[Ranger]

{Ollie, Killthestory, OceanWind}
{MagnaofIllusion, Lowell}
{Bellaphant, acryon}
{Imperium}
{Nosferatu}
{Xisiquomelir, SnarkySnowman}

Two.

[Ranger]

{Ollie, Killthestory, OceanWind}
{MagnaofIllusion, Lowell}
{acryon}
{Bellaphant}
{Imperium, Nosferatu}
{Xisiquomelir, SnarkySnowman}

Three.

[Ranger]

{Ollie, Killthestory, OceanWind}
{MagnaofIllusion, Lowell}
{acryon, Bellaphant}
{Imperium, Nosferatu}
{Xisiquomelir, SnarkySnowman}

Four.

[Ranger]

{Ollie, Killthestory, OceanWind, acryon}
{MagnaofIllusion, Lowell}
{Bellaphant}
{Imperium, Nosferatu}
{Xisiquomelir, SnarkySnowman}

Seven.

[Ranger]

{Ollie, Killthestory, OceanWind, acryon}
{MagnaofIllusion, Lowell}
{Bellaphant}
{Nosferatu}
{Imperium}
{Xisiquomelir, SnarkySnowman}

12.

[Ranger]

(That was Nosferatu moving up because of 281 if it wasn't obvious.)

[Ranger]

{Ollie, Killthestory, OceanWind, acryon}
{MagnaofIllusion, Lowell, RadiantCowbells}
{Bellaphant}
{Nosferatu}
{Imperium}
{Xisiquomelir, SnarkySnowman}

13.

[Ranger]

Oh, sorry, your post slipped by the cracks.

JMO's posting's scum. It's legit.

[Ranger]

{Ollie, Killthestory, OceanWind, acryon}
{MagnaofIllusion, Lowell, RadiantCowbells, Bellaphant}
{Nosferatu}
{Imperium}
{Xisiquomelir, SnarkySnowman}

21.

Gonna take a short break and resume.

[Ranger]

I dearly hope for my sanity that you're town.

Naturally.

I'm actually genuinely curious.

I'm town.
You're almost certainly town.
We're both in the game at the same time.
So.

Which of us will die first?

Egotistically, I want it to be me, but realistically, it's probably you.

[Ranger]

but it looks like it's more of a rangerlist than an read list, so I'm more skeptical about the actual depth of the reads.

Oi!

Actual Rangerlists are proper readslists themselves.

Sure, maybe Ranger imitator lists aren't proper readslists, but those aren't the genuine article.

[Ranger]

I think I'm comfortable with this.

{Ollie, Killthestory, OceanWind, acryon, RadiantCowbells}
{MagnaofIllusion, Lowell, Bellaphant}
{Nosferatu}
{Imperium}
{Xisiquomelir, SnarkySnowman}

25. Will keep reading to confirm.

[Ranger]

Also, MoI's share in the push on me and particularly his last reaction feel incredibly fake.

So I'm PRETTY sure I know what MagnaofIllusion's scumgame looks like, and I'm PRETTY sure this isn't it. None of the signs I'm looking for are there and his tone just feels entirely town. The only reason he's not in the top-tier town is because I don't have a large enough sample size where I'd be able to make that familiarity call with absolute certainty.

[Ranger]

If it was Nacho posting around page 28, I'm almost positive Imperium is scum by the way.

[Ranger]

Imperium's progression on SnarkySnowman's slot has been fairly bad this whole time, but 32 is really what tells the story there.

{Ollie, Killthestory, OceanWind, acryon, RadiantCowbells}
{MagnaofIllusion, Lowell, Bellaphant}
{Nosferatu, Xisiquomelir}
{Imperium, SnarkySnowman}

[Ranger]

Magna's weakness as town is that he is particularly susceptible to town reading people that agree with him and scum reading people that disagree with them.

Psst.

Magna.

Guess what Imperium's scumread of CoM was doing to you?

I seem to recall words along the lines of...

Imperium is so Town it hurts. Any concerns I might have had in the deep recesses of my mind have been washed away in the avalanche of their posting the last 24 hours.

What their storm of posting was doing was shutting down the viable SnarkySnowman wagon (a wagon they were

earlier encouraging

mind you!), in favor of the same wagon you were pushing: the CoM mislynch.

{Ollie, Killthestory, OceanWind, acryon, RadiantCowbells}
{MagnaofIllusion, Lowell, Xisiqomelir}
{Nosferatu, Bellaphant}
{Imperium, SnarkySnowman}

[Ranger]

{Ollie, Killthestory, OceanWind, acryon, RadiantCowbells}
{MagnaofIllusion, Lowell, Xisiqomelir, Bellaphant}
{Nosferatu}
{Imperium, SnarkySnowman}

35.
Nosferatu, for reference, remains not a scumread. He's more like nulltown. I know, according to the wiki, that means I'm one scumread short. It also means I'm townreading one player I shouldn't be. That's what the remaining 12 pages are hopefully for.

[Ranger]

FTR if CoM flips town and SS flips scum you will be in my lynchpool.

(CoM flipped town and SnarkySnowman is totally flipping scum.)

[Ranger]

{Ollie, Killthestory, OceanWind, acryon, RadiantCowbells}
{MagnaofIllusion, Xisiqomelir, Bellaphant}
{Nosferatu}
{Lowell}
{Imperium, SnarkySnowman}

And there you have it.

[Ranger]

Xisiqomelir: Vanilla Townie had been killed night 1.

Well on the one hand.

Pretty sure this confirms me as town.

On the other.

This would have been really useful to know when reading D1. I was under the impression we had no deaths last night; none are listed in the OP.

my reads are just better.

Debatable. Mine are pretty on par with yours. Largely because we tend to scumread the same people, but that's beside the fact.

SnarkySnowman

is

scum, guarantee you that though! And you get credit, since I wasn't in the game at the time.

The whole fucking idea that it's an ok thing announce reads but not go in depth AT ALL is absolutely trash.

Only if you never go in-depth about them. (That's the thing Ranger imitators seem to forget: when I give no reasons, I'm doing it both to see how others react and out of laziness, so when I have gathered reactions and am asked, I give the details. People who use my style without understanding this tarnish it.)

My reads have been changing as I've read the thread.

I fully expect questions to be asked about them when I'm caught up. I'm not gonna give reasons by default, but if you ask about a read, I'll elaborate.

SnarkySnowman is scum, but he's not scum for that reason.

[Ranger]

Can we all stop dragging our feet and vote Severa?

For the record, I seem to recall hearing this attitude about CoM from a different player on D1.

[Ranger]

this isn't the game i post in when i'm drunk

And this is very much a scumclaim.

[Ranger]

I would never have lurked as scum either. The alt was intended to be secret; why not establish myself as town leader, strongarm lynches, try to push things that don't end up coming to fruition, IE my trademark scumplay that works fantastically well and I wouldn't even be at risk of being meta'd out for it which has caused me to somewhat avoid it in general?

Look at my Viva La Gloria games. That's what I do as secret alt because that's what I see as optimal scum play for someone who is not going to meta me.

Does that look anything like what I've done this game?

As the person who correctly identified him as scum

both

times when Viva was scum...I can confirm this. So, it's not just him self-metaing now; I vouch for the accuracy of what he's saying here.

Though, I have to say Viva was more a secret than this alt given that this alt was pretty obvious from the start. (Even without current knowledge, signature RC posting was very strong after a while.)

oh and considering yet another game just ended where I had 2/3 of the scum pinned in the first couple pages, you should probably listen when I say SS is scum.

As the aforementioned scum, I can also confirm this!

SnarkySnowman is scum.
RC apparently beat me to the Imperium scumread, but there's your second.
Lowell looks like the third.

[Ranger]

Think that Lowell is scum by his approach to my wagon but can't say for sure.

That's not fair.
That's not fair!
SnarkySnowman was yours.
Imperium was yours.
But.
Lowell was

mine

. He was supposed to be MINE! ;_;

[Ranger]

ranger has typically good reads, so I'm okay with this

In spite of my losses to his scumgame, I'm generally fairly good at reading RC. (Most of said losses being extenuating circumstances.) I can tell you: this is his town game, through and through.

While my other townreads are important, that is the most important one of them all considering, you know, there's a wagon on him. Which you are a part of.

I'm pretty sure SnarkySnowman's scum, but I'm

absolutely

sure RC's town. So if you're serious about this: unvote RC.

[Ranger]

Caught up. 1158 is where my reads stand at.

[Ranger]

Ranger would have no idea what Magna's scum game or town game looked like. He's been gone since 2012 and just came back. He doesn't have a finished game to his name since Ranger has been around.

The key word you're looking for here is 'finished'. MagnaofIllusion just coming back is no reason for me to be unfamiliar with him when I'm replacing into and/or reading as many games as I am. This can easily be seen by how much I stalk the replacement request thread. (I've been sniped when trying to enter plenty.) Heck, you can ask RC; he's seen how many games I've replaced into recently.

Furthermore, the tell I have for MagnaofIllusion is not specific to him as a player; it's specific to his playstyle which a few other players have. My go-to example is Red Coyote. It's vaguely similar to Titus's playstyle, but with a slightly different overall approach. If MagnaofIllusion were scum, his play would resemble what Red Coyote did in Twin Peaks. His play here is nothing like that. There are multiple things which show it. Tonality, what he's focusing on, the type of arguments he is making, all of these are different between that style of play as town and as scum and it only took seeing it once for me to instantly recognize it.

But.

You know I can't answer this in detail, and would never bring it up as town knowing I can't answer it in detail. I'd get modkilled or at least force-replaced if I did.

We were on CoM's wagon before Magna was.

But you didn't start crazy-hard pushing them until SnarkySnowman was in danger.

And it was only at that point when you started crazy-hard pushing them (after MagnaofIllusion had joined the wagon) that MagnaofIllusion posted that very strong townread on you.

But you'd know all this if you were actually reading and not skimming and making fake ass reads lists.

I do admit there was some skimming involved, yes. If I have a read established on a player who is posting long walls, I skim for key words and then after reading the parts which look important, skip the rest. Games have a

lot

of fluff in them. Tammy's particular style of walling (and Nacho is not immune to it either) is particularly hard to parse, so if I missed details then my bad, I will retract my point whenever it's wrong, but I'm pretty sure I picked up on everything important you've said.

[Ranger]

Your reads on Imperium, SnarkySnowman, and RadiantCowbells are the reads I most want to see elaborated on.

RadiantCowbells is the simplest to explain. I am intimately familiar with how RadiantCowbells plays games as scum. I've seen his scum game five times (the sixth where he tied doesn't count because he was really a serial killer), and town game countless more times. There are certain patterns that he displays as scum which are absent from his town game, and none of those patterns are present. (Unlike MagnaofIllusion, this one I actually

can

go into detail about.)

His play is, obviously, never twice the same in regards to his scumplay. How he played scum in Fire and Ice was different from how he played scum in White Flag, in spite of both being on his alt, Viva la Vida. But there are overarching similarities. The tunneling is usually present, and hasn't been this game. His tone often comes across as flat even when he's saying he's ticked off at a player, but here he feels sincere. When Radiant is scum, he is setting up a long-term game plan, I have seen it multiple times, and yet here that behavior is absent.

When RC is scum, he may take unusual stances, but they come with an agenda: getting a strong player mislynched with gusto is practically a signature move. He's done it with both me and Titus among others. Here, his unusual stances come with a "I don't care" attitude. When he's scum, he'll put up false-bravado surrounding these, but it is exactly that: false. He never follows through and he shifts attention elsewhere when convenient. But here, his "I don't care" attitude is no act.

This is probably not as in-depth as you were looking for. I'm sorry. I suppose part of my ability to read him comes from his status as my favorite player. I enjoy playing with him more than any other player, and while I may not give him any sort of special treatment compared to other players, he still is easily sorted. I've seen him as town many times (I'd have to go through my wiki to count the exact number), probably a dozen or so if I counted them all, and while I haven't always been able to confidently place him in top-tier town, I can tell you of them I've had him as scum incorrectly a grand total of once...and after we interacted, I was able to see he was town and fixed my error.

[Ranger]

I'll give the others after reading the rest of the thread and attending to other duties.

’m not sure why everyone would have a Town read on Kill’s slot.

I will admit: the latter half of Killthestory's iso is weaker than the first half.

But the first half is undeniably town. He was seeing all the things I was seeing during that time period (well, for the most part), pushing them exactly as I would have if I was in the game during that time. (I'd have to iso him to list all the places I agree and all the places where I don't but still thought were reasonable, but from memory I can tell you basically everything in his early iso fits one of those two.)

While it's true, he hasn't been as, shall we say, aggressive as is typical of his town game, the way he acknowledged it felt town to me as well. I got the impression his "I don't really care" attitude was still present, just in a more laid-back, casual manner. When he

has

pushed, his pushes look like they're in that specific mind set, one of, essentially, "I'm not doing much, but this feels right, and I don't care what others think of it". Admittedly, I don't have too many games with Killthestory, like three or so town games and one scum game, but this simply...doesn't feel the same as what he did in Longnight.

Yeah, this.

I get that you don't like the idea of some random player being able to peg you, but...

I can peg you.

And you're not scum this game.

I'm even more sure of it now.

Willing to just accept on a single post Radiant’s word without reading the thread at all.

Wrong. I cannot explain why at this time, but RC's description of SnarkySnowman's behavior made me want to vote SnarkySnowman, for a

very

specific reason. As in, very, very, VERY specific reason. I wish I could tell you now. I probably will be able to tell you before this game's over, maybe not by the end of this game day but probably before this game would end, and when I can tell you I have every intention to because this was actually one of the reasons why I scumread SnarkySnowman in the first place and it's very frustrating that I can't tell you

why

yet.

So Ranger – how many times as Radiant scum fooled you? Just curious.

None. He's been scum in six of my games, but once was as a serial killer (which I don't really count), twice involved a 1v1 between him and another player with the other player having posted a scumslip-that-wasn't-actually-a-scumslip which made me not even look at him, the fourth time I was killed before I could read him (and I totally would have nailed him if not for having been nightkilled; I was a fresh replacement), and the remaining two I had him SOLIDLY nailed as scum.

I can read RC. I've never been wrong on him when he was town, either. (Well, unless you count the initial read in Space Invaders, but after a back-and-forth with him where we got a solid day's worth of interaction with one another, my read flipped.)

Pre-explaining why she doesn’t have the requisite number of scum in her reads-list is the kind of posting scum think to make in advance.

I don't follow.

I’d really like to see any explanation for this. Really … all ears.

Because if I was scum, I'd know who my scumteam had killed.

I thought Xisiqomelir's slot was alive the entire time I was reading D1. There wasn't a single hint to suggest he was dead. The OP listed ChurchOfMercy as lynched, but there was no nightkill listed. My name was edited into the OP, so I knew the OP had been edited recently, and assumed it was up-to-date. With only one person listed as dead, the assumption would therefore be there was no kill last night.

[Ranger]

If you want proof, this is, unedited, the OP as of this second:

Open 633: Near Vanilla

Player list:
* Bellaphant
*

SeshatX Severa

RadiantCowbells
*

KainTepes Jim Herustically_Alone

Ranger
*

jmo16mla

SnarkySnowman
* MagnaofIllusion
* Imperium-A hydra of Nacho and Tammy
* Killthestory
* ChurchOfMercy-hydra, Klingoncelt and Albert B Rampage
* Lowell
* Nosferatu
* acryon
* OceanWind
*

KTthecreeper

Xisiqomelir
* Ollie

Spoiler: living players 13/14

* Bellaphant
* Bellaphant
*

SeshatX Severa

RadiantCowbells
*

KainTepes Jim Heuristically_Alone

Ranger
* jmo16mla
* MagnaofIllusion
* Imperium
* Killthestory
* Lowell
* Nosferatu
* acryon
* OceanWind
*

KTthecreeper

SnarkySnowman
* Ollie

Spoiler: dead players

* ChurchOfMercy

Spoiler: mod killed players

none, let's keep it that way, shall we?

events

day 1 has begun, post #2
day 1 VC 1.01
day 1 VC 1.02
day 1 VC 1.03
day 1 VC 1.04
day 1 VC 1.05
day 1 VC 1.06
day 1 VC 1.07
day 1 VC 1.08
day 1 VC 1.09
day 1 VC 1.10
day 1 VC 1.11
day 1 VC 1.12
day 1 VC 1.13
day 1 VC 1.14
day 1 VC 1.15
[url=http://server6.kproxy.com/servlet/redir ... 2#p7856292]day 2 VC 2.01

I'm listed.
Xisiqomelir is not listed as dead.

[Ranger]

It had nothing to do with your ongoing games.

Except yes it does.

Because that's exactly what all MagnaofIllusion experience I have is.

[Ranger]

no energy.

This is my feeling for this game right now.

I technically owe SnarkySnowman and Imperium cases, but I don't have the energy for it right now, sorry.

I'll try tomorrow.

[Ranger]

Very easy to claim a Town read on me based on fluff “meta and stuff” in an Open Set-up when you know going in who is Town and who is not.

Or, alternatively, very easy for me to obtain a read on a player whose towngame and scumgame are completely different animals altogether. Your scum game looks nothing like this game.

Speaking of which, I had meant to do this earlier, but apparently I forgot:
{Ollie, Killthestory, OceanWind, acryon, RadiantCowbells, MagnaofIllusion}
{Bellaphant}
{Nosferatu}
{Lowell}
{Imperium, SnarkySnowman}

So you are telling me to just trust you

Not permanently. But temporarily, for a short while? (Like two weeks or so.) Yes.

the fact that you are trying to claim WIFOM Town status based on a Nightkill you didn’t replace in until after it had already happened or the fact that you are trying the “Oh, I didn’t know Xis is dead I’m Town” as something that makes any sense from someone so supposedly competent?

The kill happened after I replaced in, yes.

But for me to not know about it would require me to either have no access to the scum topic or me to have not read it.

Reading topics is the first thing I do.

Ergo, if I was scum, I'd have known about the kill.

Furthermore, I showed you exactly why I thought Xisiqomelir was alive. I replaced in on page 46. There was no votecount that entire page while I was catching up. Ergo, I would not have noticed his name was not listed in a votecount unless I had read back, which I did not do. I never isoed the moderator, ergo, I would not have reason to randomly jump to the end of day one/night one and see he was dead. In 1196, I explicitly give proof that Xisiqomelir was listed as being alive, whereas ChurchOfMercy was listed as being dead in the OP, and I was listed. This demonstrates that the OP was apparently up to date, and I had no reason to assume it wasn't. Ergo, there was absolutely no hint whatsoever that Xisiqomelir was dead.

Still waiting to hear why I'm scum for a reason other than that I'm hard scum reading Rc

Partly the scumminess of your predecessor, partly your status as a strong wagon near the end of D1 and yet how ChurchOfMercy was pushed through to a lynch, partially reasons I cannot disclose at this time, partially how when you're town you actually have scumhunting that's tangible and here it's not. I intend to elaborate on as many of these as I can when I'm not on my lunch break.

[Ranger]

My Kill vote is in very much the right place.

Not really. That burst of posting was made naturally and contains some solid analysis. Not all which I agree with, but that's just proof he's not sucking it up to me. He's made original points for his beliefs, bringing in some good things, and has a solid readslist.

So in summary you are asking me to trust you for a period of time in excess of the timeframe in which the lynch you are pushing (Snarky) will take place and just want me to take your word for it that you have good reasons?

Well when you put it

that

way...yes. I suppose I can understand the hesitance given that.

Tell you what – if you are indeed Town vote Killthestory with me today and once you can actually speak of the reasons on Snarky I will agree to listen with full attention and consideration. Deal?

If you tried selling me on, say, Nosferatu being scum, you'd stand a chance.

A

chance

. Not a guarantee, just a chance.

Voting Lowell or Imperium I can do without convincing being necessary. Only those two.

You're trying to push a lynch on one of my strongest townreads.

So, no.

You said that if you were scum you know what player you would have killed. That makes zero sense given you were not in the game at the point the decision on the kill was made.

And you're conveniently leaving the part out where if I was scum I'd have known who my partners killed because being scum means having access to the scum PT, which any scum player with so much as HALF a brain reads FIRST.

My point is, if I was scum, I'd have access to the mafia topic.
The mafia topic would contain discussion of the kill, and every mafia topic I've ever seen has allowed the mafia to submit night actions through it.
Ergo, if I had read the mafia topic, I would know who they had killed.
I did not know Xisiqomelir had been killed.
So your options are I am scum who for some ungodly reason chose not to read the mafia topic (which I have a history of reading

first

upon replacing in, which I can prove by my past scum game replace-ins that have daytalk),
Or that I'm town that did not have a mafia topic to see the kill in.

Ergo, town.

[Ranger]

if ranger is mastin why are their readlists different?

Because, surprise, Imperium is actually wrong.

I've seen the comparison between me and her made before.

The first few times I wasn't sure whether to feel complimented or insulted.

But by now, with every additional time the comparison comes up, I've pretty much figured out it's the latter.

You as Ranger would not know how to distinguish between me and Nacho enough to go oh if that's Nacho posting on one page then it's scum.

Yes, I do.

I can't talk about why I do.

But there was something

very specific

which made me say that.

Which both of you know about.

[Ranger]

^That second quote was Imperium, for clarity.

[Ranger]

Its because this game I'm being pushed to make a gigantic case which I really don't want to do.

Honestly empathize with this right now.

[Ranger]

What other way did you expect your “trust me post” to be viewed?

For the issue to be delayed until I would be able to explain.

The matter of a time frame didn't cross my mind.

This is ton on verbiage that rests solely on the foundation that you aren’t just lying about not knowing Xis died just to establish the post you made at 1159.

Yes. And? I said it was reason for me to be town. I hold by that as something I wouldn't have thought of doing as scum.

But you supposedly are the caliber of player who could certainly read the Mafia QT, look at the first post and say “Hey, I’m going to use the Mod’s flub up as a way to Town myself. Watch and laugh” to your buddies.

My scum record says otherwise. Every scum win of mine has been on the merit of either setup (being scum-sided) or my partners; all my losses are in games without these factors.

It's too early to tell though and I'm waiting to see those cases on Snarky and Imperium that'll likely give me a more accurate read.

Unfortunately, my priorities will be elsewhere for...a while. Not sure how long. But I'm devoting a lot of energy to a place not here, and I'm not certain how long this will take. At least a couple of days, maybe longer. So, full cases will have to wait.

I already gave some of the highlights in what I see in SnarkySnowman, but for Imperium, for a start, their posting simply hasn't felt town for the majority of the game. It was vaguely townish-looking initially, enough that I was giving them a pass and looking elsewhere, but it was not something where I could instantly view them and go, "town". Then, you get Imperium's strong push on CoM, over the push on SnarkySnowman. This in spite of how SnarkySnowman's predecessor was a scumread of theirs. Once SnarkySnowman came in, suddenly, without them stating a read change, they refuse to support the wagon despite earlier having driven the wagon. This was also the time where interest in lynching SnarkySnowman came. So, in short: they were pushing the slot when nobody was interested (distancing), but once interest formed, they went elsewhere.

This is best highlighted by the events of page 32: Imperium had claimed, "SnarkySnowman has no scumgames" as part of the SnarkySnowman defense. Yet, after finding one, they do absolutely nothing with it. In fact, 796 backtracks on the issue. In 797, the defense even morphs into "oh, we'd just rather lynch CoM" rather than "Oh, SnarkySnowman isn't scum".

There's more to the Imperium case than this, but this covers some of the main issues with them.

[Ranger]

They'd know Snarky was getting lynched the following day anyways so why burn towncred just to delay a partner's lynch?

I don't know.

Ask Nacho.

What is this specific tell? Cite examples of MagnaOfIllusion's pushes and posts that you found alignment-indicative.

It's not a "these factors are present in a town game" tell, so much as a "these factors are absent in a town game" tell. Ironically enough, Xisiqomelir actually covered this slightly: 561's section on him. The abrasiveness is present from someone with his playstyle more as scum; the enthusiasm and particular angle of attack is present from someone with his playstyle more as town. Instead of focusing on nitpicky details, instead of relying on technicalities, instead of being stubborn, instead of lacking a firm base, he is making logical conclusions and following through with that town eagerness.

This is Red Coyote's iso as scum. I realized MagnaofIllusion is not Red Coyote, but his playstyle is similar, so if he were scum I would expect to see those same markers I used to nail Red Coyote. I'm not seeing them this game, ergo, he's town.

How has the tunneling been absent? How has he not been setting up longer term plans?

This isn't a tunnel from RC.
You say his attack on SnarkySnowman is a tunnel. But...that's not how RadiantCowbells tunnels. THIS is an RC tunnel, on Titus. This is him setting up a longer-term plan. This is a typical game from him as scum.

It's an entirely different animal altogether.

Also, your reads haven't changed all that much since page one, why?

Because most of those reads have had no reason to change.

You had Ollie as a townread on page one and nothing that he posted since then affected your read?

Correct.

Why are you townreading him anyways?

I'd have to check out his iso to give the details, but from memory, I can tell you: his early posting was

incredibly

strong, and he might have been my strongest townread on page one in fact. His posting has become less frequent as the game has progressed, but unlike a player such as, say, Lowell, his recent posting is still as strong as his earlier posting. Maybe not necessarily in content, but in conveying alignment; his actions have maintained the existing townread.

[Ranger]

Do you think Lowell is scum?

Yes.

He started the game alright, but his posting now, in contrast to yours, just looks like scum.

Ranger, what's your take on this...

I refuse to deal with my slot's content. If you have issue with it, vote me. If you want answers for it, tough. The slot's out of the game. I'm not answering for it. I'm only going to answer for my own actions.

I'm asking you because you are one calling them mafia.

I don't know Nacho well enough to tell you why he does something like that as scum. All I do know is that he does something like that as scum.

Examples of where he did this?

Some other time, but...it's everywhere in MagnaofIllusion's iso. The "ha!" mentality.

I'm not going to read an ISO over two hundred posts.

Skim it.

It's required reading.

No joke.

Required. reading.

Because it's RC, as a then-secret alt.
Like this game.

So, no, I don't have a summary. Just read that iso, and compare it to this game. It's not the same. It's not even close to the same.

What did you like most about his recent posting?

On just this page? 1281 is ridiculously good. I like his paranoia in 1282. His interaction with Killthestory furthering it in 1285. The tone in 1289. All of these make me think Ollie is town.

[Ranger]

You said in your Post 1280 that his posts have shown a town alignment. How?

On this page was meant as a demonstration. I showed you Ollie's posts on this page

alone

and why those made him look town. I could make that same level of analysis for literally

any

page Ollie posts on (other than a contentless prod-dodge). You asked me what Ollie has done to continue to be town. I've given examples, from this page, but they can be from any page. Ollie's posting continues to look town. This page, any page. That was my point. You're asking me why Ollie's town. I've got a better question: why

isn't

he town?

Same question for RadiantCowbells, too.

But why take that tone? Far too defensive.

What defensive tone? There is none. Simply a blunt statement. It was the antithesis of a defensive tone. I flat-out say if you have a problem with my predecessors, to vote me. I'm not defending their play because I'm not them.

[Ranger]

Same question for RadiantCowbells, too.

^For clarity, that's not a question to RC about Ollie, it's a question about RC for others to answer. The question isn't, and should never be, "Why are they town?"

It is, and shall always be, "Why

aren't

they town?"

[Ranger]

Is there reasoning beyond just the defense of Snarky?

Well given that makes up a significant majority of their iso?

Not particularly. There's little stuff here and there. How they seem to say they support lynching SnarkySnowman today but are incredibly noncommittal about it, their interactions with others defending themselves from it, but it all ties back to that basic interaction.

Your examples with Ollie aren't compelling in the least.

They aren't meant to be. You asked me why Ollie was continuing to be town. I gave contemporary posting as examples to show it. Those are things that continue to uphold the already-existing townread. The townread has existed the whole game. Ollie's posting had been even stronger back then with his early posts. I loved the RVS in 7: it was good-natured fun. 20 continued, with lighthearted banter. I liked the semi-joke yet still serious nature of 22, and when he was asked for a fully serious answer, he immediately gave one in 24. His next post, 25, followed through on this. Note also that at the time, I was seeing KTthecreeper's iso as bad, so Ollie was seeing the same thing at the same time.

This was enough to propel him

miles

ahead of everyone. In the following Nosferatu-Ollie debate, I'd side with Ollie in a heartbeat because Ollie dominated that conversation. (I happen to think it was town-town, but were I to choose one player to be scum in there, it would be Nosferatu.) Posts after the RVS continue this townread. Pick a spot, any spot, in Ollie's iso. I can name at least one post in that area I like, and if I'm not lazy I might even be able to describe why.

[Ranger]

Also, I just read the Ollie case. It is, quite literally,

If you were that confident in your read, I'd expect a stronger presence in the game, more engagement with people about Lowell, asking for our reads on Lowell, asking people for votes. You haven't done any of that.

This.

One line.

One line, that's it, in a post that otherwise gives all the reasons why Ollie should be a townread. And it's something that is obviously not alignment indicative. Many people this game are not putting forth a stronger presence in the game. Too many for them to be the scumteam. Do you know how many people you can apply that statement to? The acryon slot (admittedly getting replaced), the Bellaphant slot (admittedly getting replaced), Imperium, Killthestory (especially until recently), Lowell, you could argue Nosferatu, and SnarkySnowman most definitely fits in that category.

Ollie is not remarkable in that regard.

So if that's why Ollie's scum to you. Explain why all the others I just listed aren't.

[Ranger]

Why would any halfway-decent player be non-committal about a bus? It's the worst of both worlds: they don't get the credit for it but Snarky dies anyway.

I don't know! It's still true anyway.

Describe what town posting he's done there.

Sure, once I'm caught up.

You are misreading the post. I made one paragraph explaining why I townread him initially. The rest of the post was about why I suspected him.

And the rest of the post boils down to that one sentence. Tell me what you wrote there that doesn't go back to that basic accusation against Ollie. Because all three of your points? Are exactly the same point.

[Ranger]

I want to see more from Imperium after 1313.

[Ranger]

I also made the same exact argument concerning your knowledge of BB and that I believed you were an alt and that's how I was reading you and your reaction to your partner.

In Mafiaception, I did have meta on BBMolla: Blitz 2. I was scum, yes. I was exaggerating, yes. I was also not lying.

You ignore that I clearly said that you were displaying knowledge you wouldn't have as a new player to claim that I asked you to talk about ongoing games, which I never did.

Except yes you are. You're saying I have knowledge I wouldn't have as a new player. I gained that knowledge through ongoing games. So, by making the accusation that I gained it through other means, yes you were. Because the only way I can answer truthfully is to say that it comes from ongoing games.

That you actually tried to claim I was trying to get you modkilled shows how much reaching bullshit you're putting into the game.

Who's writing words onto me now? I never said you were trying to get me modkilled. I said that you were deliberately making an argument I could not defend against without breaking rules. (Which probably would not result in a modkill.) It's something I don't see you, or ANY town player, do as town, but it IS something I've seen scum do. Multiple times in fact! Scum have tried to force rulebreaking or punishment of rulebreaking which town do not.

Point out that little stuff here and there why don't you?

The summary is already there in 1308. The little stuff all ties back to the SnarkySnowman issue. Most of your play revolves around SnarkySnowman's slot.

How is being noncommittal about a snowman lynch mean we're scum?

Yeah, this question really answers itself.

What do we gain out of it in the event he flips scum?

I don't know. (Skipping the next one since that takes time to show.)

How does Snarky make up a signficant majority of our iso?

Everything you're doing is basically going back to SnarkySnowman. Your interactions with me, your interactions with RadiantCowbells, your reads on other players, most of it revolves around SnarkySnowman.

Try to answer the question.

I don't know. It's something I'd expect Nacho to do. I don't know his mind well enough to guess. Testing the waters. Thinking he can get away with it. I could go on all day figuring out potential reasons, but I wouldn't know which of them would apply or not.

I thought we were doing it because we were trying to get on Magna's good side?

I said your push on CoM was suspiciously like the very behavior you described to get onto Magna's good side. I actually never thought about your current behavior being in that light, though thanks for the idea!

That would mean that we considered the rest of our team mates expendable and would want to keep ourselves under the best light possible, which would mean not shooting ourselves in the foot day one.

And there's plenty of material where you call SnarkySnowman('s slot) suspicious and plenty of material where you call Lowell suspicious if I recall correctly, so if my scumteam theory is correct you could in fact get away with it interactions-wise.

I've asked you to go back and point out where it looked like we didn't believe our CoM scum read. I don't think you did that.

I must have missed that request. For that matter, I don't recall making the accusation you didn't believe the CoM read except by virtue of the obvious "scum know scum, so don't believe ANY of their reads". You can by this point guess the response: when I can, I'll take a look.

I'd made the most noise about Lowell, yet he is RC's apparently.

RC and I have a running contest to see who the better scumhunter and nightkill magnet is.
He, unfortunately, is winning.

Bluntly, I didn't even really notice your Lowell point nor did I care much for it. I

did

care about having felt RC's reads were right on SnarkySnowman and Imperium, then learning my third scumread was also

his

third scumread.

What else didn't make sense about that is I don't remember RC ever calling us scum.

Several times. RC's iso is kinda long and it's not something I can just control-f "Imperium's scum" because I'm not sure he even called you by name when making the first accusations, so I would have to find it, but just ask him. He'll verify it.

[Ranger]

It was a bit overkill and read very fake to be like, 1, 2, 3, 7, some with minimal minutes between them.

Ollie being ignorant on a first game is believable.

This is not. Tammy and Nacho both, 100%, absolutely

know

that I display this tendency in games. Of course, ongoing is ongoing, so let's use recently completed games.

Example one. Town.
Example two. Scum.
Example three. Serial killer.
Example four. Town.
Example five. Town.
Example six. Scum.
Subverted: example seven. Scum...where I did

not

do this. I put in five minutes worth of effort to fake it, then cruised the rest of the game.
Example eight. Town.

I think we can thoroughly establish this is a null tell for me.

Imperium saying otherwise when they, 100%, absolutely KNOW this is the case,

that

makes them scum.

[Ranger]

Sheeps Ranger who has basically spent significant time in this game literally marinating herself in self-meta.

I've done no such thing?

The only time I've used self-meta is when a player has made a claim about my own meta.

All my other uses of meta have been strictly offensive: using it to townread you, using it to scumread Imperium, using it to scumread SnarkySnowman, etc.

See but it certainly can be delayed if you chose to, perchance, pursue other scum reads which you could explain.

Which is, time allowing, exactly what I've done? I've tried working around limitations to give reasons why SnarkySnowman is scum. I've given reasons for every townread I've been asked about. I've been having this rather long back and forth between Imperium in case you haven't noticed! The only scumread I

haven't

pushed is Lowell, and frankly, I don't see what good it'll do. I want SnarkySnowman hanged. I have a wagon there. Lowell is inactive. Pressuring him won't do much. I'd only switch to him if I decided I wanted him lynched more than SnarkySnowman.

and doing nothing else but defend.

Hmm, maybe perchance I would be spending less time

defending

if, oh, you know, I was facing

a whole lot less attacks

.

The most striking thing about her townplay was that immediately upon replacing in, she suspected a strong player that hadn't received much suspicion before and aggressively went after them.

And in

what

realm is going after

Imperium

not qualify as doing this?

[Ranger]

i.e. "Ollie, Imperium, Ocean let's derail the wagon on the one person who is beyond a shadow of a doubt not town focused and whose only defense by others is that he's probably just a VI"

Why did I

ever

let my townread on you weaken?

With Ranger, I know that she's competent and capable of in-depth thoughts.

And normally I can back it up, too.

Do you know how frustrating it is that I can't right now?

I can tell you about SnarkySnowman. I can tell you about Imperium. But everything I say, without the understanding of its true source of origin, is virtually worthless because the in-depth thought comes from somewhere else.

Ranger's other reads are pretty shallow as well - like the read on Ollie for example.

You keep

saying

this while ignoring what I've actually

said

. You haven't asked me about most of my reads. The reads you have asked about I've given limited responses on because

I'm in constant defense mode right now

. I am being attacked, day after day, on an incredibly emotional level even, so I haven't been ABLE to give more. There's more to Ollie being town. There's more to a bunch of other players being town, too, like you. (Which you never asked about.) If you shut up about me being scum, backed off, gave me space where I was allowed time to focus, do you know what I'd do?

I'd actually answer your request! Especially with a reminder, since things are slipping my mind now, but no. I haven't gotten that. I've been attacked. And attacked. And attacked. And when I'm attacked NO FREAKIN DUH I'm not going to be doing much attacking of my own.

[Ranger]

No barely-competent player would do what Ranger is accusing Imperium of doing.

Except, 100%, Nacho

has

.

[Ranger]

Have you realized the mental gymnastics that you're trying to do to call us scum yet?

In a sense.

Trying to describe things without crossing a line is, in fact, very very hard to do.

Are you actually thinking that through?

I've made that abundantly clear, yes.

[Ranger]

When did we drive an earlier jmo/snarky wagon?

That

I can find quickly. 215 is strong. 349 was another strong push. 352 is another one. 461 furthers the push. In 477, your question asking why Killthestory has him as town carries the implication of you having the opposite, which fits with the above.

You were calling for support there.

At the time, it did not materialize.

When it did, you backed off.

How and when did the interest begin?

I'd have to manually reread the thread to answer this. Some time after RC-as-Severa was in the game, some time after SnarkySnowman was actually in the game, somewhere around where he gave his shallow reads without reasons. People saw it as scummy, and interest grew. Immediately after this, you went all-out on ChurchOfMercy.

How and when did we go elsewhere after driving the snarky/jmo wagon?

Technically I don't think your vote ever left ChurchOfMercy, but, while voting CoM, you were not pushing them above all others at the time. You were doing the above, with jmo's slot. Then after SnarkySnowman came in, you suddenly abandoned all other efforts to push that one wagon through above all others.

Since you're such a specialist in telling us apart, you should recognize that 796 is nacho and 797 is me.

If I was a specialist in telling you apart, I wouldn't have needed the 'if' quantifier for your posting, now, would I? Never claimed I was. Tammy's style of play is fairly distinctive. Nacho's style of play is fairly distinctive. But in a hydra, you're a Venn diagram. Some posts are definitely one head, some definitely the other, the rest are ambiguous. I suppose the better a person knows you, the smaller the overlap is, but I'm definitely not in that group.

[Ranger]

I've tried being nice. I've tried it several times through my career.

Oh, hey, there's the answer for why I'm the common mislynch!

Our reads are almost always the same, yet I get lynched and you get nightkilled and this is probably why!

Of course, being nice generally requires me not being in a foul mood.

This particular game is cancer and I very much regret replacing into it.

[Ranger]

1396 does look town from Imperium, so I

am

, in a sense, willing to hug it out.

[Ranger]

Hi all, sorry I need to do this, but: I'm going to a special even early tomorrow.

I spent today running errands preparing for that event tomorrow. I didn't declare V/LA because I did not anticipate it taking all day.

...It did.

So, my apologies, but I need to do a one-time prod-dodge for today only. I'll be back tomorrow night.

If I remember this game's deadline timer correctly, that should be plenty of time to work.

[Ranger]

What the hell, I posted in here yesterday and I'm the last poster.

I mean, I know I

said

to give me some space, but this isn't

exactly

what I meant...

[Ranger]

All you had to say was "I'm not an alt, people think I am but I'm not. I've read some of his games and I think I understand what type of player type he is." Simple as that.

That probably would have been a good idea, yes. The thought did not cross my mind.

It reads to me as you going overboard trying to cover up your slip and you trying to make me look scummy in the process.

I've cooled my head down a little bit if it helps. (The event was a lot of fun, helped me unwind a lot and let loose a little steam.) When you're talking like this, I don't scumread what you're saying.

I think it's more productive if you try to actually discuss our scum motivations in what we did yesterday.

I've pointed the main ones out. I'd have to re-scan the thread (because it's not something easily spotted in iso) to find anything else. This is also something I'm not sure I want to do anymore because I'm no longer sure of my scumread on you. Especially when you actually reached out to players, there's a lot which looks town.

Yesterday, I'd say the majority of our iso is about CoM as they were who we were trying to get lynched.

Point half-retracted. When I talk about a player and their content regarding a player, I usually filter out the other player if that player has flipped town. In other words, with your initial CoM push, you didn't stand out at all as a CoM pusher even if your content revolved around CoM at that point. It wasn't until SnarkySnowman's wagon began that I noticed your CoM push, which is why I said your content primarily ties to that slot.

You have to agree with me that SnarkySnowman is at least the secondary focus of your iso though.

The question really doesn't answer for itself.

"Why would scum be noncommittal about lynching scum" doesn't answer itself? That's literally what you're asking.

I mean if you're going to call us scum for this you have to be able to answer why you think we'd do this.

I can't, and even if I could, I'm reconsidering the read so I wouldn't.

[Ranger]

UM I'm not exactly sure why you think linking games neither of us have been in is proof that we're scum because I think you writing numbers at the bottom with miminal minutes in between looks fake.

I can't exactly link to ongoing games (even ones I've flipped in), now, can I?
(I, uh...can't do that, right? I'm pretty sure I can't, anyway. If I can, then I would.)

The point wasn't "Imperium has seen these games, and should know better".

It was, "Imperium has seen this behavior before, and should know better." The games being unrelated is an unfortunate side-effect of site rules.

Also Ranger if you really are reading Snarky as scum and you want it to be believed, you could actually say I don't know point out the stuff in the posts he's making in this game.

Well I'm probably not the best one for that. Others have done it already and did so quite well, namely, RadiantCowbells. I thought jmo's behavior was suspicious. I think SnarkySnowman's behavior this game matches his scum game. His activity is about the same both as town and as scum, but what content he provides differs slightly. The readslists such as 528, done as a poor Ranger imitation, are something I associate more with his scum game; if he were town, I would actually expect something less concrete. There's also how much content he is giving. Ironically, too much: walls like 613 are also more common in his scum game than his town game. There is also who he is pushing, but RadiantCowbells covered that fairly clearly.

It would be much easier to talk about this given an extra week or so.

I've never WOTC'd before, but I will probably be WOTCing her in any games she signs up for if I'm already in them if this is actually how she plays. I've never witnessed a more atrocious town play and I've seen some pretty bad ones.

I know this is probably not alignment indicative.

But I absolutely

hate

it when someone says this.

You say that the majority of our iso is about snarky, so apparently we didn't back off.

The majority of your iso can revolve around a player even if you back off from that player. When said player is the counterwagon to another wagon, and you start heavily pushing the other wagon, your iso is still revolving around that player. But as noted already, I semi-retracted the point.

Do you think this is out of the realm for what Nacho and I would do as town?

No, which is a good reason for this back-and-forth to end soon.

I should also mention: the only thing keeping me from hard-scumreading Virtue is that I'm pretty sure I know who Virtue is and if they're scum I'm pretty sure I almost always read them as scum regardless of their alignment.

[Ranger]

You didn't notice it or you didn't care for it?

What makes these mutually exclusive? I'm townreading you hard. I'm scumreading Lowell. I didn't really notice your Lowell read, but since you've brought it to my attention, it hasn't done anything because nothing changes. I still townread you hard; I still scumread Lowell.

That seems legit but if you were really reading the game properly while you were making these lists then how did you miss this...

I wasn't up to that point in the game yet. That simple. Xisiqomelir was listed on the playerlist. He was listed as alive. I knew which slot he was in, because that was also listed on the playerlist. I did not know he was dead, because that was not listed. I brought up his death once I reached that point in the game.

I think Virtue is scum with SS based on his catchup. That leaves 1 more?

Stop stealing my scumreads before I can make them!

It's Lowell for the third, by the way.

You're not bothered by anything?

^Another reason SnarkySnowman is a scumread of mine. This is

not

the stance he takes on me when he is town. When he is town, he is always cautious of me. Always. 100%. After I snowed him in Machina, he has always been cautious of me.

[Ranger]

{Ollie, Killthestory, OceanWind, RadiantCowbells, MagnaofIllusion, Nosferatu}
{acryon}
{Virtue}
{Lowell}
{SnarkySnowman}
^Where I'm at right now.

[Ranger]

And Imperium, who you've spent the last few pages bickering with is where?

Whoops.

{Ollie, Killthestory, OceanWind, RadiantCowbells, MagnaofIllusion, Nosferatu}
{acryon}
{Imperium}
{Virtue}
{Lowell}
{SnarkySnowman}

convenient that Snarky is your top scum read Ranger.

Yes, how convenient it is that my top scumread is the player

I am voting

who I have

actively tried to lynch

. Funny how that works, innit?

[Ranger]

{Ollie, Killthestory, OceanWind, RadiantCowbells, MagnaofIllusion, Nosferatu}
{acryon}
{Imperium}
{Virtue}
{Lowell}
{SnarkySnowman}

I'd like to clarify that there's a gap between acryon and Imperium, but

also

a huge gap between Imperium and Virtue.
acryon's fallen out of my townbloc and I'm waiting for the replacement there. Imperium's not even close to that level, but their posting's feeling much better overall, which is why they're well north of the nullline.

[Ranger]

Have you played with Snarky before?

More than any player in here, except possibly RadiantCowbells. So, yes. Extensively. As both alignments.

This is his scumgame.

[Ranger]

In fact yes, you haven't played in any completed games where I was scum.

The key word there is 'completed'.

When have you two successfully read Snarky during a game?

Most games actually. So,

For the most part, they both tend to scumread me

This is actually a flat-out lie. At least for me. Can't speak for RC, but I'd assume it's also not true of him.

[Ranger]

So, now that it's ended, there's one SnarkySnowman scumgame I

can

discuss: this one.
It's not the only scum game of his, but it's one I can give you right here and now.

Reading now.

[Ranger]

I think Oceanwind may be scum regardless of this flip.

I wasn't gonna say it, because it's paranoia from the post-hammer, but...the thought did cross my mind, yes.

I'm swamped at the moment (can't even update my wiki, too busy), but I intend to read up on him over the night.

[Ranger]

3. Ranger's read on SnarkySnowman and the confidence there just doesn't make sense to have on a player that is extremely difficult to read.

Okay so technically the game's not listed as officially over yet, but a hammer was dropped so the game's pretty much over pending only the mod announcement. So I can explain now.

SnarkySnowman was scum in Diffusion of Power. I link to a post which I made as a summary of the game. Read it. I said, very specifically, SnarkySnowman was a scummy scumperson D1. Now, read RC's post.

ss was a scumfuck
i vote scumfuck ss

RC was drunk, but this post, after

I

replaced in, felt like it was directly speaking to

me

about that, and saying, "This is the EXACT same SnarkySnowman from Diffusion of Power", which is why I voted him before reading. When I read the thread, I agreed with that assessment.

The read on Ollie looks fake as well because he's taking perfectly null posts and calling them town.

This is the same misrep. I have said, time and time again, that Ollie's posting has maintained the already-existing townread. (I mean, now would be a good day to look back on that and reassess, but that's not relevant.) Not been the basis of it.

I don't think Ranger ever intended to even push them.

Then why even start?

I'm mostly thinking scum are in {Virtue, OceanWind, Lowell, Ollie}. I'm not voting until I've had the time to fully reread the game thread.

[Ranger]

1. How was Snarky's posting similar to that game?

This was SnarkySnowman's iso that game.
This was SnarkySnowman's iso this game.
They looked nearly identical to me. This did not match my experience with him as town.

Ollie was an early townread for you but that never changed even as his activity dipped.

And I explicitly showed why: the posting maintained the read. It did not increase it. It maintained it. This, because Ollie (in contrast to, say, Lowell) was actually still making posts which could be read. I did not say the posts were town by themselves. I said that, when combined with earlier townier posting, the later posting was able to maintain the townread. VERY important distinction there. Posts maintaining an existing read are not the same as posts that can generate a read.

3. What happened to your suspicion of Imperium?

When Imperium actually started reaching out, it looked town. They also defended themselves against the majority of my points. (Not all, but the majority.) When you combine the two, you get me very strongly reconsidering my read. Though...

Did that disappear because you were wrong on Snarky?

This certainly helps, yes. The disappearance of the scumread existed well before the SnarkySnowman flip, but with it, any lingering traces have evaporated.

What changed that Ollie is now in your list of suspects?

That's not a list of suspects as much as it is a list of people I'm so much as looking at.

I'm not looking at MagnaofIllusion. I'm not looking at Imperium. I'm not looking at Killthestory. I'm not looking at Nosferatu. In hindsight, probably should have included massive in the list, but you get the idea.
{Virtue, OceanWind, Lowell, Ollie, massive} is where I'm focusing my effort on in my reread. Three of the names there are scum. If you were to ask me right now, I'd say {Virtue, OceanWind, Lowell}. However, I

am

going to reread, fully and entirely.

[Ranger]

How did it not match your experience with him as town?

This was SnarkySnowman as town. There was strong thoughts present the whole game.
This was an earlier SnarkySnowman towngame. Less posts, but just as much content as the above link. Strong thoughts.
This was SnarkySnowman as a jester. He was playing more town than scum that game.

Contrast with Open 632 and with Diffusion of Power.
This game looked like the latter two, not the above few. There wasn't the same strong posting, there wasn't the same strong thoughts.

I and they argued the same point - that it was dumb to suspect them of going out of their way to defend a partner.

That wasn't one of the points they actually defended themselves against sufficiently, actually. It was more the littler stuff elsewhere. How they talked to me, how they addressed me, where they gave their views, and how they saw it. I'm in no mood to manually re-iso them to find the points they did which were convincing. But while I still think some of the points I made were technically correct, I no longer believe the points indicate they are scum.

What do you mean "Imperium's reach out?"

Basically the majority of the latter half of D2 was them reaching out. RadiantCowbells was in fact the main target player. He was not the only one. I saw hints of an olive branch put out in my direction in spite of their scumread on my slot, for instance.

As much as he may be your favorite player, his pouting about how he's the best and everyone should follow him for no reason while not communicating with anyone else wasn't helping the town wincon.

Given SnarkySnowman flipped town, sure, but if SnarkySnowman had flipped scum, that would be a different story altogether. He was wrong. It happens. That's no excuse to justify bashing a player, least of all one who is likely retiring from playing anyway (and maybe in part from comments like that).

I found yours suspicious because your scumread on Snarky seemed to exist purely because that's the lynch Radiant wanted to push.

Okay, homework time. I have 11 officially completed scum games. Find one where I was sheeping someone else on the lynch. They're all listed conveniently on my wiki. I'll wait.

"Sheeping" the push of someone else is a very strong,

very

prominent, element of my town game. A lot of my readslists are significantly impacted by points other players make. If they make a point I strongly agree with, I'm more likely to townread them. If they make a point I haven't thought of, I may or may not townread them, but I'll look at their point, realize it was valid, and take it into account with my reads, moving people up/down accordingly. RadiantCowbells is a player I can do this quite well with because I know his accuracy is fairly high. He is not the only player I can do this for, and even in this game he is not the only player I have done it for. I can't instantly remember another player, because this is a passive thing I automatically do on instinct every game without even thinking about it, but it's there.

What's the difference between "suspect" and "list of people you are looking at?"

I suspect you. I suspect Lowell. I suspect Virtue. I have absolutely zero confidence in a scumteam of that composition. I am looking at a few extra players, namely, reconsidering my Ollie townread (oh, this is actually an example of the above: I am reconsidering the Ollie townread because of

things you have said

), though also taking another look at acryon/massive. I am looking at people who could be scum. I hold suspicion as of this moment on those three names primarily.
It goes like this:
{acryon/massive}
{Ollie}
{OceanWind, Virtue, Lowell}.
I am going to look at all names.

This should have taken me five seconds to explain in one sentence because this is not a hard concept to grasp.

Why aren't you looking at MagnaOfIllusion? Give me something more than "his playstyle is similar to RedCoyote's" and a link to RedCoyote's ISO as mafia. Actual, concrete reasons why you are reading MagnaOfIllusion as town.

Know how, as of now, I can link to SnarkySnowman's games which made me scumread him?
Can't do the same for MagnaofIllusion. The "about a week" rule still applies there.

Did I do something in between these two posts to make you go, "Oh yeah, massive is scum!"

No.
I am looking at you.
I see you as possible scum.
I don't think you are scum.

I don't have strong opinions on anyone (the only one I was sure that's town was RC fyi) I still have about half the thread to read up on, and when I'm done with that I plan to iso a handful of players as I can only focus on so much at one time. Not sure who yet but Ranger will be one of those as she's getting heat rn.

Very much thinking the Lowell scumread was right for ^this by the way.

[Ranger]

So. Now that it's over. This was MagnaofIllusion's scum game. I was watching it since the beginning.
What OceanWind was asking for.

His play here is completely and entirely different. I'm a bit busy so I can't show the highlights at this very moment.
But...MagnaofIllusion that game displayed the same play as Red Coyote.
MagnaofIllusion this game is displaying none of those same behaviors.

[Ranger]

I'm not seeing this difference that you are.

Well SnarkySnowman flipped town so maybe the difference wasn't what I thought, but I saw the difference at the time.

But this actually contradicts what you said before about how his case on Severa was more indicative of his play as mafia. Does he put in more effort as town or mafia?

The funny thing is, SnarkySnowman has stronger posting/pushing as town but more in his posting as scum, at least that's what I saw.

I think that's a fair assessment of his play this game.

And I think you're not exactly wrong for this game specifically, but are being overly harsh to the dead guy conveniently just after he's dead.

Best way to get townread from him is to push alongside him.

We're talking RC here.

Hell

no. That'd do nothing of the sort. He'd null-read me in all likelihood.

The two bolded statements sound like you are saying that you sheep as town but don't sheep as mafia.

11 (well, 12 now!) games is a very strong record saying this, yes. It's often-present in my town game. It was an accusation made against me in Open 612, first game on-site. It was an accusation made against me in Micro 537, second game on-site. It was an accusation in Mini 1730, third game on-site. It was an accusation in Blitz 2. Skipping to more recent examples, it was what got me lynched in Micro 602. (Ironic, considering I

started

the wagon, but the accusation of sheeping was made all the same.) It was an accusation made in Micro 599. You get the picture. It is never present in my scum game. Not once, out of twelve games. At least, not sheeping day actions. (I've sheeped my scumbuddies every single time during the night.)

So yes. I stand by my statement.

If that's true and you know it, you can potentially change it.

This argument can be made of literally any aspect of my play. It also, by its very nature, is a self-defeating argument, because by this train of logic, the action (which you were accusing me of being scum-motivated in making) cannot be scum. It can only be null if your own argument holds: it's a trait I display as town, but oh, I know about it so maybe I'd do it as scum, so it can't be alignment indicative, so...

...Why the HELL are you treating it like it is?

If you suspect me, why are you putting weight into things I've said about Ollie?

Newsflash: I'm sometimes wrong in my suspicions, and other players are sometimes right. I was wrong on SnarkySnowman. So, yes. When a player makes a valid point, and you are in fact a player who has indeed made valid points, I listen. Alignment is irrelevant to this. Masquerade could make a good point, Ollie could make a good point, massive could make a good point, Virtue could make a good point. If they do, I consider all aspects of it: could they be town making this point, or are they scum making a good point? If their point is good, does it change any of my reads on other players? This is something I am constantly doing. I did it for over five years prior to joining mafiascum, and I still do it after joining.

Frankly...how can any player who calls themselves experienced

not

do it?

[Ranger]

Wait. You think I'm scum and you're willing to forgive other players based on associatives with my slot? Can you unpack that?

Very, very, VERY valid point on Masquerade.

Pretty sure I'm voting there as soon as I do a reread.

At this point Nosferatu is rapidly becoming a viable suspect for me with posts like 1588.

Honestly I kind-of took that comment as a parody on Titus VCA. Today

is

D3 (the day Titus is supposed to do VCA), but not having a scum flip is her stated excuse for not doing it.

I don't understand the night kills and there are a few things I want to think out.

Well I probably don't need to tell you this, but when you don't understand the nightkills...

Virtue is at least right about one thing, and that's that we need to do a hard reset.

This is, in fact,

precisely

what should be done, because not understanding the nightkills usually means huge assumptions about scumteams are inherently wrong. An RC nightkill doesn't particularly shatter my worldview, but if it did, that's what I'd be doing.

[Ranger]

That Micro game where you flaked as scum really supports that position too ...

Oh, right, now that you bring it up...does this Killthestory feel like the same Killthestory-as-Kanbei from that game?

It doesn't to me.

[Ranger]

I'd have hammered Ranger btw

You would have been right.

I'm never playing that good as scum again. I don't think it's indicative of my normal scum play for what it's worth; I was entirely convinced that game was a 0% chance of winning, so instead of aiming for a win, I was aiming for personal goals: zero mislynches, game doesn't count on my wiki, one mislynch, I accept the loss and record it as such, two mislynches, I record the game as a win on my wiki. I never thought I'd get the third!

Incidentally, I've been procrastinating on this game partly because I've wanted that game to be officially, 100%, declared over. (Still feel guilty. I should

not

have won that game given the conftown, obvtown, strong town, and weak/dead buddies.)

[Ranger]

Nacho thinks it's a ranger kill.

I already crossed that off my "to do" list, so no.

RC was obviously a VT. He was also going to take a lot of heat from the SnarkySnowman mislynch. That's not my type of kill. If I were scum, I'd probably have killed you, or someone else (I have a fairly good guess for who one of our PRs are, you might be able to guess who as well, but for obvious reasons, I'm not stating their identity; they're in my will-not-lynch list).

Ranger calling the game cancer and regretting replacing into it was what shook my suspicion of her.

I fail to see how. As scum, my misery would be, very clearly, not faked; the desire to have not played the game would therefore be real. As town, obviously, my misery was, very clearly, not faked; the desire to have not played the game was therefore real. What in there could be considered town?

Here, she's reconsidering a Magna read when the meta does not match.

I've done this elsewhere.
Not this game.

My MagnaofIllusion meta is incredibly consistent, and all of my looking-at reads are on players I'm looking at without meta.

had literally no idea it was you

It was pretty obvious to me.

[Ranger]

Here we go. It was KTS not Magna, Ranger was reconsidering.

Uh, no, that was me reaffirming my townread on Killthestory.

I have an engagement for a few hours today (it's Mother's Day!), but I'll return later to start the reread.

[Ranger]

Will read in a sec, but will quickly point out: this game was the real reason, from the start, I townread MagnaofIllusion this game. In THAT game, he

was

playing like Red Coyote. The distance from his reads was identical; the only difference between him and Red Coyote was he chose to be emotional with abrasiveness rather than be emotional with AtE. I had him instantly pegged that game as being like Red Coyote as scum (ergo, scum; he was, albeit a serial killer), and his play here is not the same at all. As soon as I run the rounds on all my games (including catching up here), I'll explain in-depth if you'd like.

[Ranger]

HOLY FUCK THIS GAME DOESNT MATTER ANYMORE THIS GIRL THAT IVE LIKED FOR SO LONG AND SHES HOT AND SHIT, WELL I ASKED HER OUT AND SHE SAID YES OMG

Congrats!

Btw, I read the last couple of pages, almost in their entirety, but I kind-of wish I hadn't. Walls are...walls. I think OceanWind is scum; I think Masquerade is scum. I'm absolutely sure MagnaofIllusion is town and Imperium is town. I still need to reread, but that will happen later when I've recuperated from the wallfest.

[Ranger]

What about the other reads you were reconsidering; Massive/acryon, Ollie?

Still in reconsideration pending reread. The change was in the strength of the OceanWind (and to some extent, Masquerade) reads.

[Ranger]

I continue to be bemused by the inherent irony of player whining about walls in a game based on a written medium.

It's not the amount of text that's the issue.

It's the formatting.

I'd rather read 100 lines containing 1,000 words than something like 5 lines containing those same thousand words. I lose my place easily on the latter; it's virtually impossible for me to lose my place on the former. Tammy does the latter the most, but OceanWind's not far behind, and both you and Masquerade have picked up some of those bad habits.

Because I see a pretty significant discontinuity from her Town game there and what I am seeing this game.

A discontinuity exists, the question you have to ask is whether the discontinuity is alignment-indicative. I've had this debate rather extensively, so hold no interest in reigniting it; the argument is in my iso.

[Ranger]

Looks very much like scum Ranger saying "Hey, I thought this player was alive". Which you spent way too much time trying to convince me was a Town tell for you. So ... what's up?

The difference is that in Diffusion of Power, Killthestory was lynched (not nightkilled), meaning there was no town credit to be had,

and

Killthestory's death was listed in the OP. Killthestory was listed because of derp. Not scum-faking-derp. Just plain, non-alignment-indicative, simple, derp. I somehow had listed him as alive when I had all the information (even in my own notes!) which said he was dead.

Here, again, Xisiqomelir was not listed in the OP until well after I came in as dead. There's no derp to be had. The only way,

only

way, I would know Xisiqomelir was dead was if I had either isoed the mod (which I had no reason to do at the time), or if I had prior access to that information (ergo, a mafia topic where the Xisiqomelir nightkill would be discussed).

So, the Killthestory thing was just derp, not town, not "town", not scum, just something which slipped my mind and was something that would be there no matter what; Xisiqomelir was not.

[Ranger]

You're not voting so you're not pushing any kind of case and you've been putting off reads for a while now.

This is true.

This is also something I've never done as scum.

This is because I am still not sure on anything and until I am sure on something I'm deliberately not voting.

The fact remains that even with my focus on Rach’s slot today over yours that you aren’t doing anything to actually scum-hunt. You pop in, make some defensive comments, and leave.

This is also true, but also is from the above.

I’m not impressed and thus you are in the scum-pool.

I would only hold issue with this if I did not see where you were coming from.

But I do.

Why haven't you asked me shit?

Why would I?

[Ranger]

I generally don't sort by questions.

I sort by reading and/or pointing things out and/or talking.

Our talk right now is null for what it's worth. I'm not getting anything and I don't think I will. It's a waste of time for someone who in this game is already wasting her time.

[Ranger]

Ranger, I've never seen you so disengaged with the game before.

This is a lie.

I absolutely was not engaged in Blitz 22, and that was

your first game with me

. (Well, at least under your name; I don't know if you played with me prior to that because I don't know your main.)

How come you are not sure of anything?

I'm not sure of anything. There's no "because" in there. I don't have confidence. Heck, for all I know, the townreads I insist upon (MagnaofIllusion, Imperium, Killthestory, Nosferatu) could be wrong. I really don't think they are and, frankly, if I had to reread the entire game while also rereading every single living player looking at every single one of their posts to try and determine their alignment, I don't think I could do it.

[Ranger]

Blitz 22 took all of 2 days because the cult targetted me and completely suicided. That's not a good example of your play to me.

And neither is this game.

You're being awfully convenient with your choice of knowledge in me.

You say my play this game isn't typical of my normal play, which I have myself admitted. You say you've never seen me play this way before, and I point out you have. After that, you say that game wasn't typical of my normal play so you discarded it. You can't have your cake and eat it too; which is it?

You can always be wrong in any game you're in, how is this game different?

One, I already was wrong. Two, I'm at constant risk of being the next mislynch and whenever I get mislynched I try to make it a point to have accurate, rather than emotionally-driven, reads. So, yes. This game is different.

[Ranger]

Also, with 2 townies modkilled day 1 after they've been clogging the thread with their arguments was a good enough reason to be disengaged from the game at all, so yes, I'm discarding that one.

I was disengaged both before and after the modkills. Their slots had nothing to do with my inability to get reads.

And how exactly are you at risk of being the next misslynch?

Lack of votes does not translate to lack of suspicion. I am a scumread of very influential players. Imperium and MagnaofIllusion both think I am scum, and I think both of them are town. (The only resistance my wagon is likely to encounter is from Killthestory and Nosferatu; both are also townreads and I think Nosferatu is townreading me and Killthestory definitely is.) There are three scum in the game who would gladly join a wagon on me especially to save themselves. {massive, RachMarie} both hold no opinion of me and even if they're not scum, they'd probably join my wagon; {you, Ollie} are both scumreading me and if for some reason one or somehow both of you were town (basically impossible), that would be 3/4 town all pushing my wagon.

So, yes. At any moment, I could be a mislynch, especially as deadline approaches day by day. Deadline-wagons are a

great

way of getting me mislynched. So, yes. I am being cautious. I'd rather be mislynched with no reads to be followed than mislynched with wrong reads to be followed.

[Ranger]

And if you think "mislynches never have their reads followed", that would be a valid statement for other players.
But I speak from experience.

People

do

follow my reads when I'm mislynched, bad or good.

I hold an obligation to prevent the bad and try for the good.

[Ranger]

can we like, lynch the Lowell slot or whoevers in it? it's clearly scum

Most likely, yes.

Voting there would be L-1 though, and I'm not ready to lynch.

[Ranger]

At this point...very solid on Masquerade being scum, and on recent content, fairly certain Titus is a partner, too.

Definitely not voting right now, though. I need to both confirm, and find the third.
But my reads right now are:
{Imperium, MagnaofIllusion, Killthestory, Nosferatu}
{massive}
{Ollie, RachMarie}
{Titus}
{Masquerade}

[Ranger]

WHY IS EVERYBODY FEMALE AND I KEEP ASSUMING THEY'RE MALE

Because people are stuck in the 10-year-old assumption there's a gender divide in internet usage that quite frankly wasn't even that true ten years ago, yet alone in modern times.

In your defense, Masquerade does not have a gender listed (I do), so the only way to know is if Masquerade tells you. (There's no such excuse for me though.)

[Ranger]

Not saying “I have to be careful and am re-reading because I’m in danger” and then suddenly flop down on the person under the most pressure out of the blue.

I don't get what you're saying with the first half, but the second?

You haven't been reading my iso.

Because if you had, you'd know this suspicion is nothing new.

I think Masquerade is scum. I think Virtue is scum. I'm still going to fact-check this, especially given the need to find a third scum if my thoughts

are

right.

I was suspicious of Masquerade before there was so much as a single vote on the slot.

Ranger, what's the difference between Snarky and me?

Not sure what you're really asking here. I was wrong on SnarkySnowman, so I'm not blindly voting you. I hold suspicion on you, but it's not as strong as my suspicion on SnarkySnowman was. I happen to think your slot is scum for the things you've done (rather, the lack of things done) and what your predecessor did (rather, lack of things he did), but unlike with SnarkySnowman, I actually don't have as much backing that up. The only thing you have in common with SnarkySnowman is that I'm scumreading you. Everything else is completely different.

[Ranger]

Supposedly you were being extra careful. The implication is that there was significant re-reading and re-assessment going on that you just were too lazy to post about.

And this shows you haven't been reading my iso because I've been very explicit, here. Yes, I should be rereading. No, I haven't gotten around to actually rereading. I have been very explicit about this: I need to reread. But off of the current content being posted (and in some cases, lack thereof), Masquerade and Titus are my top-two best guesses for two of the scum.

Lazy analysis is how I start the game, sure. But if I'm rereading the game, I will post every relevant piece of information I find. Not once have I done so. Because I haven't even started the reread.

Yet your "I'm sure these are scum" post reads on Masq and Titus are by your own admission long-standing scum reads. And the justification you used to vote Masq as a "sure scum read" is essentially "Recent posting". Which shows exactly zero reflection and re-assessment.

What. I'm not voting Masquerade. The scumreads are long-standing, yes. They are strengthened by recent posting, yes. This is, in no way, contradictory. Am I supposed to ignore all the new content and focus purely on the older content? Am I supposed to discard every scummy thing Masquerade and Titus are saying just because I'm supposed to be rereading?

No. I do need to reread. I will try and be as unbiased as possible when rereading, keeping an open mind to being wrong about them, but off of their current content and what I remember of their older content, they are still currently my top scumreads.

Here's a question - who haven't you called scum at some point in your ISO other than me / Kill?

Pretty sure I haven't called the massive slot scum. That's a slot I need to confirm is town. I also never called RC scum. So, there's four players. This is also a bad point and you know it. Ask that same question to Imperium. If you asked them who they haven't suspected at all, I don't think they'd be able to produce four names. Reads evolve. I have had my read on Nosferatu, for instance, evolve from a scumread into a townread.

[Ranger]

RC is dead.

So? My point holds that he was never a scumread.

I'm talking about currently living players.

Almost half of which I'm currently townreading, with another player (massive) at null and in need of being sorted desperately.

I'm saying yours have not evolved in a way that reads Town to me in the least.

Each of those changes has a reason.

1. The first, Nosferatu from a weak scumread to an increasingly-large townread. This is because Nosferatu's content was largely nullscum early-on, but his later content was very, very solidly town. This happened about mid-way through yesterday.
2. The second, Imperium. I have gone over this read many times, and am in no mood to discuss it again. It happened near the end of yesterday.
3. The third, Lowell/Masquerade, was a degrading townread for the various reasons I've said.
4. The fourth, Titus, was because Titus is playing her scum game, and I knew it was her even when she was Virtue.
5. The fifth, OceanWind, was because I found his treatment of SnarkySnowman at the end of yesterday
   incredibly
   suspect, and his pushes at the start of today only increased this.
6. The sixth, Ollie, was my holdout read. OceanWind raised some good points about Ollie, and Ollie's posting got worse, enough for the townread to evaporate.

So two of my reads have gone up, and four down, but all at different times and for different reasons.

What can I answer that would be helpful?

I don't think there's anything you can do to make me get a good read on you other than to keep posting actively and engage others. I don't have anything I can think of to ask you; questions aren't the best way for me to get a read.

[Ranger]

Could you elaborate pls?

Sure, I'll do it tomorrow. Today was mostly just celebrating the site coming back; I'm planning on turning in for the night.

[Ranger]

Why aren't you voting her?

Same reason I'm not voting Masquerade: lack of conviction.

This implies that the case on this slot is "hasn't done Jack shit", which is not a particularly compelling case to me.

It's not just lack of content, it's what content that's been produced not being good.

Her response was a valid one, but you pretended like it was something else entirely. Why?

Because the games absolutely

are

comparable. Length of the game doesn't matter. Modkills don't matter, because the modkills were not relevant to my engagement, nor was the length of the game relevant to my engagement. The point in question was about me. MY contribution. MY contribution in that game was not that way because it was short. MY contribution that game was not that way because of the modkills. MY contribution that game was that way because I was disengaged. So it is absolutely a relevant point, and therefore, the response was not a valid one.

You weren't curious who died overnight?

I already told you ages ago.

I had assumed nobody died overnight.

This is not a new subject of discussion.

[Ranger]

It would appear I'm actually in danger of being lynched.

VOTE: Masquerade.

I'm not letting that happen, even if I'm disengaged, sorry.

I'll read during the night.

[Ranger]

This is MYLO so pretty damn sure my scum reads on kill and Rach are spot on given this power wagon attempt.

Well I'll have you know: the reason I've defended Killthestory is that I've been under the impression he was a PR. So with you claiming jailkeeper, if he's not the roleblocker, then I recant my townread there.

I cannot see any world where Ranger quickhammers the day before LyLo because she is getting lynched as town.

The reason I hammered was experience. In Pokemon Episode 4, I was the first to call School of Science scum. I voted elsewhere, but was the first to make the case against them. I continued making my case against them. While not voting them. Then,

explicitly because of

my case

, a wagon formed on them. But when I

did

switch, it was called opportunistic and I was lynched. Case one, lesson learned: don't wait too long to vote a scumread, which Masquerade was.

Case two, and even more relevant to this game: Open 625. I had the three scum pegged as early as here. (I was wrong on which type was which, but correct on the names.)

iraonavp (3) – BROseidon, Heat, Jeanne11
BROseidon (2) - Ranger, Iraonavp
Ranger (2) - Performer, Beeboy

A wagon formed on me. I knew iraonavp was scum, and BROseidon was scum, and thought BROseidon was the hider guilty (he was), but couldn't get the lynch there. I also knew beeboy was scum, but knew that if BROseidon and iraonavp both voted me, or worse, town voted me, I would be lynched. So, what did I do? I hammered scum. Knowing it would look bad, but doing so anyway because if I let scum live, I could have been lynched.

In a cruel twist of irony, guess what happened the next day? I decided

not

to hammer a player I knew was scum, in spite of 100% knowing they were scum. And know what happened? Surprise, surprise. The very next page, I was lynched. Because I didn't hammer scum when I had the chance.

So, yes.

I hammered Masquerade, my strongest scumread, when my life was in danger, because the chance of lynching scum > lynching me.

VOTE: No Lynch

The correct play here is to lynch. If a kill is stopped, either by MagnaofIllusion or the roleblocker, then we gain an extra day phase. No-lynching is therefore a scum-oriented move.

So too is the wagon on me, btw. I find it no coincidence that all three of my scumreads (Ollie, RachMarie, and Titus) all joined it immediately.

[Ranger]

I hammered Masquerade, my strongest scumread, when my life was in danger, because the chance of lynching scum > lynching me.

And this is really common sense.

Heck, on the site I come from, survivalism is a null tell for good reason. We don't lynch by majority there (it's plurality at deadline), but if two wagons exist, a town player will vote their other wagon because they are town and don't know the alignment of the other person who could be mafia, whereas a mafia player will vote their other wagon because they know their lynch would be bad. Obviously, wifom exceptions exist (deliberately not voting the other wagon, either for town cred or to frame them), but it's the general rule.

[Ranger]

What in the hell are you talking about a Roleblocker for Ranger? This is an open format game and no Roleblocker exists.

Derp. Doctor.

I forgot which the other PR was. I remembered it was JK + role that's half of a JK, but misremembered it as JK-roleblocker rather than JK-doctor.

Point still holds, though. I thought Killthestory was a PR. I was defending him off of this assumption. If the assumption was wrong, then I renege my townread.

I'm not sure correct play here would be for the doctor to claim though. If they stay silent, you're guaranteed to live until they either die or are outed. At the same time, if the doctor is a suspected player, then lynching them is almost an auto-loss.

VOTE: No Lynch

My point holds, even with a doctor instead of a roleblocker. No-lynching is a pro-scum move. What do we gain from another death? Lylo instead of mylo, with a player probably very unlikely to be lynched in the first place dead. Not an ideal state. What do we gain if nobody dies? Wifom on whether it was a kill protected, a kill blocked, or scum deliberately no-killing. Not an ideal state.

What do we gain from lynching? If we lynch incorrectly and a kill is stopped, we get an extra lynch, lylo instead of mylo, with the knowledge that scum thought they had won and now are at a severe disadvantage. Ideal state. If we lynch correctly and a kill is stopped, we get a scum flip, AND we're not in lylo, or even mylo. We're a day ahead, with a mislynch to spare. Ideal state. If we lynch correctly and no kill is stopped, we'll still be in mylo tomorrow, but we'll have a scum flip and the info from the nightkilled player having been town. Still an ideal state.

The

only

scenario in which lynching today ends in a scum win is if we lynch incorrectly

and

the scum kill is not stopped. Ergo, we're lynching today.

[Ranger]

I never actually voted your wagon today....

Yeah.

You did worse:

Sat on the sidelines supporting it

without

joining.

[Ranger]

How in the he double hockey stick can you say it benefits town to lynch without a specific cop guilty or some such, Ranger?

Oh, you know.

Just because of

all the reasons that I listed

for why no-lynch is absolutely not the best move given we have a DOCTOR who can stop kills and a JAILKEEPER who can stop kills in

two different methods

. (Speaking of which, MagnaofIllusion should absolutely

not

be claiming his prior targets, because it gives scum insight into who he is likely to target tonight, something we very much do not want to give them.) Ergo, lynching incorrectly today is

not

an auto-loss. Lynching correctly today also gives us a chance of tomorrow not being mylo, not being lylo, but

us having a mislynch to spare

.

So, lynching today?
-If on scum and we stop a kill, extra day.
-If on scum and no stopped kill, tomorrow's mylo. Rinse and repeat until our town PRs are both dead. (Keeping in mind, any and all lynches continue the trend set for today's lynch.)
-If on town and we stop a kill, tomorrow is lylo. This is ideal because it gives a TOWN-CONTROLLED death rather than scum-controlled, scum likely needed to all be on the mislynch wagon (ergo, we have a significant chance of having found all the scum), and now we're in a numerically-superior situation.
The "but if we lynch wrong, we lose!" is possible, but is an appeal to fear which simply put does not match the actual math, here.

Compare that to no-lynching today.
-If nobody dies, nothing is changed. At all. We don't even know why nobody died. Scum may have done so deliberately. Maybe they shot the doc protect. Maybe they shot the JK target. Maybe they were blocked by the JK. We won't know.
-If somebody dies, that is a SCUM-CONTROLLED death rather than town-controlled. It is likely on a player we wouldn't have lynched anyway, and their death gives us nothing we don't already have. The suspect pool will be identical.

This is simple logistics, and any town player should be able to see these calculations.

[Ranger]

-If on town and we stop a kill, tomorrow is lylo. This is ideal because it gives a TOWN-CONTROLLED death rather than scum-controlled, scum likely needed to all be on the mislynch wagon (ergo, we have a significant chance of having found all the scum), and now we're in a numerically-superior situation.

Furthermore, if this happens, then scum are guaranteed to have tried a nightkill for the win. In short, we will 100%

know

that if we mislynch today, and yet there is a tomorrow, that their kill was stopped. Depending on doc/JK targets, this may either give us conftown or confscum.

[Ranger]

THERE IS NO MAFIA RB, only mafia goons.

Exactly.

We have a TOWN JAILKEEPER.
We have a TOWN DOCTOR.
Both can stop the nightkill, and the only thing which can stop them is the JK stopping the doctor.

This is, absolutely, why lynching today is 100% optimal.

Scum want a no-lynch. It allows them to PR-fish, be it in their nightkill or in a lack thereof by looking at players' reactions at daystart to see if a player has tipped their hand to being the doctor. It allows them to off a universal townread. It allows them to kill someone suspicious of them. It allows them to kill a charismatic player. Heck! If MagnaofIllusion got really unlucky and jailkept the doctor, it might even allow them to take out

the only player we know is 100% town

.

Town want to lynch. It can hit scum. It can give us an extra day. Even if wrong, it's not the end of the game, and we could use the info from being wrong to get it right.

It's that simple.

[Ranger]

We shouldn't be no lynching today because of the possibility of stopping a kill and gaining an extra mislynch.

Exactly what I've been saying.

We are, absolutely, lynching today.

I'd rather not play the odds by offering myself and hoping we stop a kill during the night, of course, but there's an absolute 0% chance today ends in a no-lynch.

[Ranger]

Quickhammering a scumread because it looks like you are going to be lynched instead of convincing the people that are suspecting you that they are wrong about you is self-preservation, and it's a move that increases the likelihood of her getting the lynched which means that she's throwing the game if she's town.

Only if I was wrong.

I was, so here we are, but what would your impression be if I had hammered Masquerade and Masquerade had flipped scum? That I was scum, who doomed my scumbuddy, knowing I was likely still getting lynched tomorrow anyway? No. I'd be town, probably even town enough to overnight go from favored-mislynch to favored-nightkill. It didn't happen, because Masquerade wasn't scum, but I didn't know Masquerade wasn't scum when I voted them.

I have already laid out my experience in the matter. I have been mislynched for not hammering a scumread. It looked like that was going to happen again. You were pushing me as scum. MagnaofIllusion was pushing me as scum. I was heavily townreading both of you. You two are both very influential players. Masquerade was lurking. The wagon there was likely to dissolve because all it takes when under scrutiny is a little lurking and suddenly you're off scotch-free. Deadline was also encroaching slowly. So I made the call: hammer my #1 scumread, or wait and likely end up mislynched

again

for passing up on the opportunity.

You act like there's any choice to be made there.

There isn't. I wish there was, I hate that I have to do it, but I am, absolutely, right about this.

It's really fucked up to do this when one of your top town reads is catching up, particularly when you think that they are capable players.

The only factor you had in my decision was that you were voting me.

If you had wanted to reread without the day ending, then you should not have placed me in danger by voting me. What did you think was going to happen? That I'd let you wagon me to my mislynch, and let a scumread go?

[Ranger]

If you ever quick hammered in the name of self-preservation, I'd quicklynch the shit out of you the next day because there's no fucking way you do that.

Apparently I do, because I did exactly that. I hammered iraonavp in the name of self-preservation. The very next day, as you so helpfully point out, I didn't...and on the very next page, I was lynched for my trouble. I lost a game I should have won, because I did not hammer scum when I had the chance. I got mislynched for not hammering scum. You voted me and by all appearances, it looked like a case of history repeating itself.

There Masquerade was. I was not hammering Masquerade, in spite of the scumread I had there, because I did not want the day to end prematurely. But then YOU voted me. YOU placed me in danger. YOU, a player I was townreading, put me dangerously close to being lynched, just like Performer voted me and I was subsequently hammered by the actual scum that game. So I had no choice.

If you were town and hallucinating enough where you thought it was a good idea to quick hammer town THE DAY BEFORE MYLO because you thought you might get lynched, then you would have explained why you were doing so more thoroughly.

No, that'd be as scum. If Masquerade had flipped scum, no need to explain myself. My actions would speak for themselves.

The only reason I'd have to say this yesterday when hammering Masquerade was if I was scum and knew Masquerade was flipping town.

So this is absolutely backwards. Why defend against an action that shouldn't need defending against? When I hammered, I thought I was lynching scum. There's nothing to be apologetic about, not then, and not even now.

[Ranger]

That was a quote from one of the games Ranger was posting about to explain why she quick hammered when she did. I noted that she said, while in a very similar scenario, that if she was scum she would quick hammer and throw the game to night.

And you're missing the entire point.

I said that game that if I was scum, I'd be hammering, but I chose not to in order to wait.
The consequence of waiting.
The consequence of not hammering scum, as town.
Was that on the very next page.
Immediately.
I was voted by town.
And the scum hammered me.
Directly causing the town to lose.
Because I. didn't. hammer. scum.
Because I thought town wouldn't possibly be stupid enough to lynch me, when I had an opportunity to bring the game into night and chose not to.
Yet they did.

The outcome of that game, that loss, has directly influenced my trust in the competency of town players when they push a mislynch on me.
It is BECAUSE of that game that I hammered here. If not for that game, I wouldn't have hammered. If not for that game, I'd have believed my lack of hammer was evidence enough that I wasn't scum. But because of that game, I know better. So when you pushed for my lynch, when you voted me and placed me in danger...hell yes I hammered. If I could go back in time, I'd do it again.

Heck. Even if I knew Masquerade was town, I might still have done it.

Probably

not, but given the choice between Masquerade alive today and me alive today...that's not much of a choice.

[Ranger]

Why did you not call out INTENT TO HAMMER knowing that dudette was at L-1?

Because calling out intent to hammer is what got me mislynched in the first place.

Why were you so worried about being at L-3 with her at L-1?

I can only say "experience" so many times before it gets old. Like,

Ranger is one of the top town players on the site.

Regardless of whether this is true or not (sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't, my accuracy is back on the rise as of late but it had taken a nosedive for quite a while thanks to game apathy), what's

also

true is that I get mislynched incredibly often in spite of my good reads. In spite of being a "top town player", I still get mislynched a lot. I get nightkilled a lot, sure, but I get mislynched just as frequently. (Well, close enough. I've been nightkilled five extra times. Within the margin of error for being equal.) So with me going to L-3...when two of the three members of the wagon are some of my strongest townreads...yes I have very good reason to be worried.

[Ranger]

Ranger, in that game, you didn't hammer confirmed scum. The town lynched you immediately. They were idiots. The situation in this game is not similar at all.

Says you.

My opinion of town competency this game is not that high. I include myself in that, I'll admit freely. This is not one of my prouder games. But I held zero confidence in you not lynching me yesterday. I held zero confidence in another lynch forming. I've been on the losing end of "Ranger or player" multiple times. In this case, Ranger or Masquerade, town or town. But I saw nothing indicating this wasn't going to happen again: Ranger versus some other player, Ranger gets lynched.

For instance. Did you read the game overnight? If so, did you come to any conclusion other than the default "Ranger is scum" you have now? Would your reread, at all, whatsoever, have reduced your scumread on me? Your scumread, that was apparently strong enough that you placed your vote on me while you wanted to reread? Because if the answer is "no"...my point holds.

[Ranger]

scum could not have hammered you as you said, you needed THREE more votes NOT ONE.

Masquerade was town.
Imperium is town, and so is MagnaofIllusion.

That means all three scum were off my wagon.

So, yes.

I could have.

Even yesterday when I thought Masquerade was scum...it'd only take one town player swayed by MagnaofIllusion and/or Imperium for the remaining two scum to then hammer. Or reversing the order of operations, if scum joined my wagon...then a town player, seeing an existing wagon on me, may have voted (or even hammered).

Also, in stunning news: your vote was not the first time Masquerade was at L-1.
They had been at L-1, multiple times, prior to that. At least twice, in fact. I noted said L-1s and did nothing about them, because, you know...not scum. It was ONLY, and I repeat, ONLY after Imperium voted me, placing

my

life in danger, that I hammered.

[Ranger]

Did you read overnight? You did promise that.

No. I was too wrapped up in a few other games. Namely, JK9++ (trying to end it), Killer Instinct Mafia, and maybe others. With how the night went (massive's death), and with Masquerade flipping town, though, I don't need to.
{Titus, RachMarie, Ollie} is the most likely scumteam here.

{Imperium, MagnaofIllusion, Nosferatu} are all town.
Killthestory is a wildcard based on whether he's a doctor or not, but this is, again, something I'm not certain should be pushed. Unless the doctor is at risk of being lynched, they probably shouldn't claim.

[Ranger]

Out of curiosity, what happens if KTS is the doc? Not the doc?

If Killthestory is the doc, he is town.
If he is not the doc, he is possibly scum. My first instinct then would be to hope the doctor is in the three names, so a simple switch could be made.
Failing that, I'd need to find the town name in the four, and lynch the three scum.

[Ranger]

What are your reads if KTS is the doctor? Not the doctor?

Hey, Nosferatu.
Yesterday you asked why Titus was in here scum meta.
Well, here's your answer.
It's for the obtuseness shown in things like this.

My stance here could not be more crystal-clear. If Killthestory is the doctor, {Titus, Ollie, RachMarie} is the scumteam. If he is not the doctor, then my response varies depending on whether the doctor is in those three names or not. If the doctor is within that grouping, it becomes {Killthestory, *other 2 not-docs in grouping}; if the doctor is within {Imperium, Nosferatu}, then I have four scum candidates for three slots and I scumhunt the old-fashioned way.

Why do you have those people town, why do you have those people as the most likely scum team?

Aside from MagnaofIllusion claiming JK, meta suggested this was his towngame, because of how different it was from my prior experiences with him where he was scum. Imperium has been obviously town ever since I did two things. First, stopped being emotional, and second, looked at their stances in that clearer state of mind. Especially given SnarkySnowman's town-flip, their stances no longer rang any alarm bells, and their progression, infuriating as it may be, has been as town as possible. Nosferatu has said all the right things at all the right times.

Titus is scum because this is her scumgame. RachMarie is scum for OceanWind's scum posting near the end of D2, and his subsequent posting. Then, after RachMarie comes in, she sits on the sidelines and does nothing...until today, when she opportunistically pursues me, in mylo, and when that doesn't pan out, starts advocating a no-lynch, which is a pro-scum move, ignoring (playing stupid, same thing Titus is doing) all the myriad of reasons why lynching today is mathematically superior for the town. And you? Combination of POE plus that same opportunism you've held the majority of today and yesterday, with no pushes that are your own.

[Ranger]

One last question from me ... do you seriously expect me to believe you are Town when you didn't re-read overnight when you specifically stated you with your hammer on Masq you would be doing just that? A simple yes or no is all I need - no "Busy in other games" song and dance explanation of why is required or wanted.

I don't have that right, no. I mean, if you look at daystart, I think it's pretty dang obvious scum were hoping to get a quicklynch on me and that I'm town, because they would have no way of knowing I hadn't, say, read the whole game and 100% absolutely caught the scum. I got to L-2, with Titus on the side. One more vote on me from someone other than her, and I'd be dead right now and we'd be in night. Given

that

as reason for me to be town, sure. But I'll acknowledge I didn't read during the night as I said I would, and that there is valid reason to see that as suspicious. It would be wrong, of course. But I can't expect better.

For what it's worth...as I'm typing this, I'm multi-tasking. I'm skim-reading yesterday (not the whole game, yesterday only), because separate from me typing this post, I'm typing another post that is doing some analysis while also proving a point. So I'm kind-of, sort-of making up for it, a little bit, partially, right now. When I submit that post (it'll be obvious which post it'll be, given it references events from yesterday, some via quote, others via link), you'll see what I mean in more detail, but it's by far no full reread of the game.

[Ranger]

Mod: Can you delete that post?

Here's the fixed link version.

Ranger (3) [L-3]: OceanWind, MagnaofIllusion, Ollie

Here, I saw RachMarieslot and Ollie vote me. Both scumreads, no reaction.

This was, of course, strengthened when MagnaofIllusion unvoted me. Why would I be worried when my wagon was players I was (and still am) scumreading?

Both of them left for Masquerade, starting the Masquerade wagon. (In hindsight, that should have been a warning, but I didn't notice it. I think I was to wrapped up in other things or something, would have to actually read my posts from then to give a better answer, but suffice to say: it's important.)

We eventually start to see these wagons:

Masquerade (3) [L-3]: RachMarie, Ollie, Massive
RachMarie (3) [L-3]: MagnaofIllusion, Titus, Masquerade

Both were scumreads. So no alarms there.

Then we get this:

Ranger (1): Masquerade
Masquerade (4) [L-2]: RachMarie, Ollie, Massive, Killthestory
RachMarie (2) [L-4]: MagnaofIllusion, Titus

Killthestory, a hard-townread, joins the Masquerade wagon. No alarm there. Masquerade votes me. No alarm there.

Titus puts Masquerade at L-1 in 1871. I did not hammer. And if you wonder whether I had a chance...yes. Yes, I had a chance to hammer Masquerade earlier. I didn't, because I did not want to end the day early.

Then, MagnaofIllusion votes me. I'm still not concerned, because it's just him, and he was on me earlier, so it was no surprise for him to be back on me. Giving us this:

Ranger (2): Masquerade, MagnaofIllusion
Masquerade (5) [L-1]: RachMarie, Ollie, Massive, Killthestory, Titus

I was posting on that page. 1909 shows that. Masquerade was at L-1 for quite a while and I did nothing.

But then, Imperium voted me. Giving this:

Ranger (3) [L-3]: Masquerade, MagnaofIllusion, Imperium
Masquerade (5) [L-1]: RachMarie, Ollie, Massive, Killthestory, Titus

I didn't hammer in 1929 because I was still reading.

In 1930, after I saw Imperium's vote, I suddenly hammered.

The Masquerade wagon had existed long before I was there.

But it was only

after

I was at risk that I hammered.

And, by the way...

Masquerade (6) [LYNCHED]: RachMarie, Ollie, Massive, Killthestory, Titus, Ranger

Unless you think Nosferatu or Imperium are scum, all three scum were on this wagon.

It's just a matter of figuring out the why.

[Ranger]

Hold please.

I kinda liked what I did in 2024, so I'm going to be looking into the idea of a focused reread of the other days, similar to it, looking for highlights in the day. I'll post each day as I do it, but it may take a while.

[Ranger]

2061 is literally calling everyone null to nullscum except Magna and me.

instead she slammed the hammer down as quickly as possible to make sure she did not get lynched.

I showed this was false in 2024. I had plenty of time and chance to hammer earlier. Masquerade also had plenty of time and chance to claim, yet was obviously not a PR. Ergo, I hammered when my life was in danger. I had already demonstrated exactly why it was in danger; that you continue to push this point as if it wasn't is why you're scum.

[Ranger]

2 hours in a site that has 2 to 3 week days so that people can play and still have lives?

It wasn't two hours.

The distance between 1871 and 1930 was five days.

FIVE. Days.

Masquerade was at L-1 for five days.
Not, as you keep claiming, two hours.

[Ranger]

@Ranger – if you are indeed Town your remaining efforts should be aimed at specifically nailing down who is scum.

I've been doing exactly that?

[Ranger]

I repeat it was 2 hours

Maybe two hours between Imperium's vote and my hammer.

But that was deliberate.

Because, you know.

There were three town voting me.

I could have been quicklynched by the scum.

So I hammered a player I was scumreading.

Masquerade was at L-1 for five days.

[Ranger]

massive and xisi kills don't make sense smh

There's always a reason. PR-hunting, accurate reads, player being obvtown (less likely this game given our PRs), policy-kill on reputation, killing to preserve the status quo, killing someone unlikely to be protected (extremely likely this game given our PRs), often the player who provides the largest combination of these things.

It's just a matter of finding out which ones it is, and from that, deducing who the scum would be.

[Ranger]

Way to not help in that process whatsoever

I've not made much headway.

Something I've done is iso the dead and see if anything sticks out as an obvious "oh, they died for this", but I've yet to find anything for any of them.

Why hasn't anyone commented on this?

Well to be fair it hasn't been that long since Titus cast the vote, but you already know my thoughts there.

[Ranger]

Imperium haven't posted in over 4 days, were they on V/LA or what?

I'm pretty sure Tammy is going through some sort of difficulty, and also reasonably certain Nacho's had some restriction this whole game.

You clearly aren’t.

RadiantCowbell's combined iso is 154 very long posts. I'm sure I could find something if I read every one in detail, but I don't have that amount of willpower. massive has 16 posts. All I see is a willingness to work with me, willingness to work with RachMarie's slot, lack of desire to lynch me, suspicion on Titus, maybe some suspicion on you, possible suspicion on Killthestory, and townreading Imperium, nothing conclusive. He wasn't obviously town, I don't see any posts that could be interpreted as PR crumbs (though to be fair I'd also need to check his predecessor there), if massive has a reputation I'm unaware of it, so if it's anything, it'd be {accurate reads, status quo, not likely protect}. That's the best I've got.

For Xisi, I've isoed him many times. The only things I see are a townread on Imperium and a scumread on Tituslot, maybe one on Killthestory. He wasn't obviously town, I don't see how he could be seen as a PR (though I'd again need to check his predecessor to be sure), if Xisiqomelir has a reputation I'm unaware of it, there's not much there in regards to relevant reads, so all I've got there is {status quo, not likely protect}.

I've been going over Xisi's since D3, maybe even late D2. Every time, trying to take something from it, every time, finding nothing definitive. Feel free to iso the dead yourself and tell me what I missed.

Probably about time for you to make one of your patented “Goodbye messages to your partners” I’ve seen before.

Literally never done this in any completed game. Best not to talk about that further, though you should probably try reading games instead of skimming them.

[Ranger]

If you're not getting anything out of this, you should probably stop doing that and try something else.

I am. I'm trying VCA. Not making much headway there, but it's at least somewhat-promising.

[Ranger]

The point is that instead of fighting your lynch, you bet the game on a Masquerade!scum flip when Masquerade hadn't actually done anything that was overtly scummy.

There's six players an absolute minimum of three which disagree with that assessment.

Masquerade had done plenty, and so had Lowell. These cases were laid out by multiple people over the course of yesterday, and even when not explicitly stated, were at least outlined.

from what I've skim-read since I've began catching up, it also doesn't seem like you're overly concerned with finding scum of any flavor either.

It's not needed. More effective is townhunting. MagnaofIllusion is town. You are town. Nosferatu is town. That leaves one town slot for four names. Reasons and exact reads are more formalities than anything else.

[Ranger]

I'd be happier if you didn't do this; I'm currently townreading both Nosferatu and RachMarie (who are in your top 2), and Ranger's responses to me haven't been at all what I expected if she was scum

Nosferatu as town is a given, but if you think I could be town and think Rach is town, what's your guess for a scumteam? {Titus, Ollie, Killthestory}?

At this point it's pretty much a given Titus and Killthestory have to be scum since I haven't been hammered. The only question I would have is on the third. How sure are you that RachMarie is town? Enough to risk the game on?

[Ranger]

@Ranger, Why did you suddenly clear Nos?

Nothing sudden about it. Nosferatu has been one of my strongest townreads since half-way through D2.

[Ranger]

I don't think the people who placed votes on you after you quickhammered were placing unreasonable votes, whether scum or town.

I suppose. Still, my statement about scum hoping for a quicklynch on me is still a valid one. Three votes popped up on me, with Titus on the sidelines as if waiting for one more vote before hammering.

What was your intention in making this post?

It had dual purposes, partly as an analysis of yesterday, partly as a defense of my actions yesterday.

[Ranger]

I also haven't really understood Ranger's perspective on KTS too well at all; from what I understand, the initial townread on him was because he might be the doctor (why did she think that?), and then that falls away if he's not the doctor but she doesn't have any read on him separate from that?

I have quite a bit of experience with KTS. Killthestory is not a pure troll. He relies on people thinking he is in order to pull gambits as town, but also to screw around as scum. His iso is long, so finding the strongest examples would take a while, but his play had many traits I associated more with the former than the latter. Things like the lurking, things like flat-out saying he's not going to effort, and such. Overall, when Killthestory is vanilla town, he puts actual pushes in. He may not explain them, but he'll have conviction and push with force. When he doesn't display these traits, I see either scum, or PR. You're right though that it wasn't a pure PR read. I thought PR instead of scum mainly because many of Killthestory's thoughts lined up with my own on my first readthrough of the game. He was pushing many of the people I would have pushed, and against many of the pushes I would have been against.

In short, while there wasn't any singular post that screamed, "I'm a PR!", when combined with his whole iso, that's the conclusion I reached. But his PR play is very similar to his scum play.

I'm not sure why you think that anyone is accusing you of hammering when your life wasn't in danger?

I was under the impression the accusation against me was that I hammered the moment the opportunity arose, which was not the case.

[Ranger]

Serious question I want to ask to MagnaofIllusion and Imperium.
How receptive are you to the idea of lynching Killthestory today?
How receptive are you to the idea of lynching Titus today?

[Ranger]

RANGER'S READS TURNED US TO A MISLYNCH, SO HE MUST BE SCUM. HIS READS ARE WRONG, AND HIS READS ARE NEVER WRONG, SO HE MUST BE SCUM.

^Btw, Killthestory already knows this isn't true.

He's also at this point intentionally misgendering me.

[Ranger]

For the record in another game that has recently finished Ranger completely undercuts his “If I was scum I would have looked at the QT to get information” argument as scum –

Wrong again!

That game, I checked the PT first.

Then I came to the thread, and had already forgotten my scumbuddy.
But then, a new post happened in the scum thread, which made me check it again.
And

then

I remembered karnos was my scumbuddy.
Karons as my scumbuddy was

in my role PM

. Since the game's over, I can quote it too.

Welcome, Ranger. You are a Mafia Goon (AKA Enemies),

along with your partners, Karnos.

Abilities:
Factional communication: During the night phase you may talk with your partners here http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=66451.
Factional kill: Each night phase, one of you or your partners may perform the factional kill.
Win condition:
You win when all members of the town have been eliminated or nothing can prevent this from occurring.

Please reply with your role to confirm.

The order of events here was, I read my role PM. I confirmed. I went to the scum thread. I posted 1. At that point, prior to karnos posting, day one started. The topic was, therefore, supposed to be locked. Somehow, in spite of it being in my role PM,

and

listed in the first post in there, I forgot karnos was my scumbuddy. I posted my first readslist in the game. karnos, meanwhile, during D1, posted in the scum thread. Kuroi then locked the scum thread, posting 3 in the process. At that stage, I checked my private topics again and saw there were new posts in the thread. When rereading the thread, with karnos having actually posted in there and seeing karnos's name listed in the OP, I was confused, until I realized I had misremembered it as BTD6. I then made the appropriate changes in my readslist.

So. Once again. My point holds.

Also,

Serious question I want to ask to

MagnaofIllusion and Imperium

.
How receptive are you to the idea of lynching Killthestory today?
How receptive are you to the idea of lynching Titus today?

[Ranger]

What do you think of our exchange on OceanWind/Rach? What do you think about Ollie?

Well it comes down at least partially to your analysis versus MagnaofIllusions, and bluntly...your analysis is done independently of my alignment, whereas MagnaofIllusion's relies heavily on a premise which is inherently false. So given that? I'd buy OceanWind/RachMarie as town and Ollie as scum.

I mostly asked about Killthestory and Titus though, because regardless of which in {RachMarie, Ollie} is scum, both Titus and Killthestory are scum, and thus, safer lynches to make.

[Ranger]

which is probably a small part of the explanation for why we aren't dead

Also helping is that MagnaofIllusion says he jailkept you every night, a detail Titus specifically asked for, yet has apparently conveniently forgotten in her accusation against you.

[Ranger]

This is the part where, if I was scum, I'd self-hammer to just end the day.
I'm not.
VOTE: Killthestory.

[Ranger]

you're just raring to prove yourself town.

Given that I'm

this

close to being mislynched?

Yes.

Yes, I am.

[Ranger]

The time she was asked to point out posts of mine that were town & she found tenuous reasons for ALL my posts on the last page, surely alarm bells there.

It shouldn't have. That was meant to reinforce the strength of the read. As in, "I can point to literally any point in the game and do this same thing".

The problem came in that I got detached from the game when I was asked to follow through.

That?

Not scum strategy.
Scum strategy would have been to actually do what I said I was going to do.

Pure, simple, actual, very real, tangible, detachment from the game, which I did feel powerless to stop.
By the time I

had

overcome it, the moment was passed. I HAD been asked "okay, do that for this section of the game", earlier when I was having difficulties. But when I had overcome those difficulties, nobody was going to re-ask the question and it would have been awkward for me to randomly go back and, out of the blue, fulfill that request.
Furthermore, by the time I was back in the game, the support to lynch me was growing enough that I saw that too.

There was a reason I was distancing from both of you even on D2.

I stand by the principle of what I did. I do not bus unless I think I am going down. At the beginning of the game, I did not think I was doomed. At the beginning of the game, I did not think I would go down. So at the beginning, I was not going to bus. You might say, "you could have put your scumbuddies in the middle", but multiple times I have lost or almost lost my scum games because of doing exactly that. I was assuming that if I was lynched, people would look to the middle of my list, not the top. And I think the timing was as natural as could be. I had red herring partners in Killthestory and Nosferatu. I had correctly identified Killthestory as a PR before either of you did. I even laid multi-layer wifom, for instance,

not

voting Titus when I was being lynched, because I thought that if I was voting a scumbuddy, it would look like "Ranger knew she was going down so she would try to make her scumbuddy look good", which is why I instead voted (as a frame job) Killthestory.

The game was not lost when I hammered Masquerade (which was where I scumclaimed, and there was absolutely no illusion about that being a scumclaim). The game was not lost when I was lynched. The game was lost when the town gained the extra lynch and Killthestory was allowed to become confirmed town. If today had been mylo with Magna dead, then Killthestory's doc claim would have been incredibly unbelievable and either of you or Titus could have believably CCed for the win.

I was protecting Ranger.

I didn't want you to do that. I knew I was gone even before I hammered Masquerade. (That's why I hammered in the first place!) I thought I might get a SnarkySnowman lynch but then I'd be done for. When the Masquerade wagon was building, I was hopeful I could get a lynch there (especially one without me), but I knew that I'd still be done for. I was obviously going down even on D2.

Honestly, if you had been bussing me from the start (or at least near it), like I did to you (you know I don't bus, so when I did, that should have been telling you, "Titus, DON'T PROTECT ME I AM GETTING LYNCHED!"), I think you could have stood a chance of maybe looking more town than at least Nosferatu.

FTR I was beyond 100% certain that Ranger was scum

And I knew it, too.
You're not as subtle as you thought you were.
You were literally broadcasting "Ranger is scum, but I'll deal with her later" in basically every post.
Most blatantly, when you said you'd be defending a townread but I was being attacked and you

weren't

defending me. It was obvious even without that, but with it, I had something to actually point my scumbuddies to because the implication there would be null-at-

best

on me and I know you well enough to know you wouldn't have me as just a null read like that.

[Ranger]

Just wanted to make clear:

The game was lost when the town gained the extra lynch and Killthestory was allowed to become confirmed town.

^Not meant as an accusation. Just an unfortunate bad luck thing, basically. The night

almost

went with a MagnaofIllusion death. Almost. It could have also gone for an Imperium death, which would have still been viable. (Not

as

workable, but viable enough to still be a possible win.) Both of these were things that, from my understanding, were

this

close to happening, yet ultimately and regrettably, did not.

It's akin to how I was disappointed nobody bit on my Nosferatu red herring. That read was designed to be

sketchy as hell

: started in the null-to-nullscum area (this is a preferred section for me to slather scumbuddies in!), then moved up to town, stayed there with absolutely no reasoning attached and was never given an adequate explanation. I really wanted people to think about that association and how questionable it was, but nobody ever did, not even once. ;_;