Open 657: JK9++ (Game over)

[MiniDeathStar]

Omg, finally people I love playing with. <3

Hi Gamma. Missed me?

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[MiniDeathStar]

Well that's a wagon if I've ever seen one. L-2 on the first page. Poor Gamma.

[MiniDeathStar]

Why did you all sheep me?

[MiniDeathStar]

Why do you believe I'm concerned, Charloux? I've not unvoted now, have I?

[MiniDeathStar]

You didn't answer my question, you just asked another pointless and outlandish one of your own. I'm ending this now.

VOTE: Charloux

Serious vote.

[MiniDeathStar]

Why are you concerned about the wagon?

Implying I was ever concerned. Not answering what led you to that pre-assumed conclusion when I asked you to.

You didn't unvote

because

you didn't want to look concerned?

Now suddenly I didn't look concerned because I didn't unvote, because

if I had unvoted I'd have looked concerned

. Basically you just admitted that you made up my concern out of thin air.

And now you're lying that you had answered the question.

And OMGUS voting me and accusing me of "twisting the truth". That's rich.

I just got 2000% more confident in my vote on you.

[MiniDeathStar]

16 was just a comment on the wagon and an inside joke to Gamma. I tunneled him super hard in our last game together but his wagon never caught on. Now it did and really quick. I've actually never played a game where we got a person to L-2 on the first page. That's all 16 was about.

17 was me trying to softly nudge players out of RVS by asking them why they sheeped me.

Charloux, if you didn't see the question properly, why didn't you say that outright or ask me to clarify? Why did you lie that you had answered it and accuse me of twisting the truth?

[MiniDeathStar]

Fountain, why is Charloux town?

[MiniDeathStar]

Why shouldn't they? I would've done if I didn't forget it was 13 players not 9 like the other games I looked at.

Never said they shouldn't. I asked if they had reasons, if any. I was trying to get some discussion going.

For 21. First sentence good. Second sentence bad.

Second sentence was me wondering where he got that "concern" from, considering I hadn't even unvoted Gamma. Idk what's bad about it.

@Fountain

Ohhh, I counted your vote twice by accident. Sorry about that.

[MiniDeathStar]

Okay, so now that you know I wasn't lying, why are you still voting me?

[MiniDeathStar]

Okay, Tiger, let me give you an analogous situation:

"When did start beating your boyfriend?"
"What makes you think I'm beating my boyfriend? Have I ever hit him?"

He asked me a loaded question. Of course I was defensive and trying to guess what he was getting at. I don't see what's so bad about that.

[MiniDeathStar]

UNVOTE: Charloux. I kind of liked your reaction. I'm not sure if I'm townreading you yet, but I'm not scumreading you.

@lane0168

I already addressed all that in #30.

@Tiger moth

Oh, you're referring to my "poor Gamma" remark? Have you never said something like "poor Nigel Farage" in jest? I wasn't concerned, stop misrepresenting me already.

Lane, you're reading way too deep in a joke comment I made about a joke wagon on page 1 and already explained about 500 times. Unless you have something else to latch onto, I'd appreaciate it if you drop the subject. I'm not discussing that any further.

[MiniDeathStar]

I suppose this isn't showing concern for someone voting you, because of the wink

Yup. I wasn't really concerned.

[MiniDeathStar]

@lane0168

Oh, you're referring to my "poor Gamma" remark? Have you never said something like "poor Nigel Farage" in jest? I wasn't concerned, stop misrepresenting me already.

Corrected. I was replying while new comments were coming in and I got the names mixed.

[MiniDeathStar]

I don't care about why you said it. I'm telling you you showed concern and then acted like Charloux was making it all up.

I acted like he made it up because I didn't fucking show concern. However you and him interpreted, it was wrong, which I already explained why. In fact I've been explaining that for two pages now when I could have spent the time doing something more productive.

I would really appreaciate it if you drop the subject now.

[MiniDeathStar]

Do you often ask question on topics you're not actually concerned with?

No, I don't. I ask a lot of questions as either alignment and they always have some motivation behind them. As town I try to get people to focus, to explain themselves and to reveal their thought process. As scum, I try to get people to rationalise things done on intuition, to contradict themselves or to look scummy so I could persuade town to vote them.

Also I'm always defensive, especially early in the game. I don't like being grilled, especially for nonsense reasons, but when I am, I try to rely on my reactions to elicit reads and reactions from other people.

[MiniDeathStar]

He had voted me because he thought I was lying. I clarified I wasn't and he accepted my explanation, but didn't unvote me. I was asking if he had another reason to vote me, and added the wink to make my tone less serious so it wouldn't look like I was continuing to grill him. I didn't think either wagon was going anywhere or moving the game forward so I just wanted to get past all that.

[MiniDeathStar]

Oh god, not this guy again. I seriously feel like I'm going to cry.

[MiniDeathStar]

At least you apologised. Thank you. It means a lot to me. I'm sorry about raging so much, too.

[MiniDeathStar]

@Gamma:

I'm sorry, I didn't know that was considered taboo information. I'll keep my mouth shut in future.

[MiniDeathStar]

Sorry, but I lol'd in real.
I followed that exchange between you guys, and it's just hilarious how ms keeps throwing problematic pairs together.
Imagining myself in a game with H (you know who, Mini) Never gonna happen.

I know right? But I wasn't kidding. I literally felt like crying. It's unbelievable how many emotions this game can bring out.

Nice to finally play with you by the way. ♥

Hi,

@Klingon

. Nice entrance. What's with the finger pointing?

@Fountain:

I kind of agree but I don't think he's lynchable just for that. If he keeps pushing the subject I may change my mind.

[MiniDeathStar]

@Gamma:

I don't see a scumslip?

[MiniDeathStar]

@alban:

I think the whole exchange with Charleux was because we misread each other's statements. I thought he was inventing some concern I supposedly had for Gamma and he thought I was trying to cover it up. His questions (especially about the not unvoting) felt really sketchy to me so I thought he could be fabricating a scumtell on me and that's why I pushed him so hard. As soon as I found out he was just mistaken my suspicion was gone.

I seriously had no second thoughts about that wagon. I literally only asked why people sheeped me to create discussion. RVS is annoying for me.

[MiniDeathStar]

@Gamma:

Before I answer that question, why is suddently everyone so interested in what I do and what I like/dislike? I don't mind making my thought process transparent because I expect that from others to a degree, but I feel like if I reveal literally everything about the way I play then that would blur any genuine reactions I might elicit from people later on because they would know what to expect and what I'm looking for.

Okay, now to answer you: because RVS is random and jocular, and it's super easy to find an excuse for doing something during that stage. This is why I always try to end it fast and start placing serious votes. The longer RVS goes on the more difficult it is for me to get early reads.

[MiniDeathStar]

You are dispensing the reads pretty fast.
I don't know if you are trying to chum or this is how you play.
At least give reason behind the reads.

As far as I can tell, this is how Transcend plays. I don't get it either.

[MiniDeathStar]

@Gamma:

I've seen RQS mentioned on the Mafiascum wiki but I've never seen an actual example. If I knew how to do alternatives, I would. Atm I just accept RVS as an annoying but inevitable part of the game. Why are you so attached to my feelings on RVS anyway? What are you getting at exactly?

Um,

@Klingon

? You got all that out of RVS? How am I a "team leader" on the first page? What does that even mean? How is me being sheeped suspicious? How is Fountain's vote switch to create a wagon suspicious?

Also if you think alban saw Spade in the scum topic, why isn't Spade amongst your FoS'es?

[MiniDeathStar]

Yeah, I think I'm with Gamma here. What was that about Charloux?

[MiniDeathStar]

He irritates me. From what i understood he labeled me as scum, and then switched to someone else with something like "yeah, what kling brought up"

I am pretty sure Gamma thought alban had scumslipped and decided it was a much stronger scumtell than whatever he had on you.

He even said he "hadn't forgotten about you". I don't understand how that makes his read on you

Fake

, bolded and capitalised.

[MiniDeathStar]

Why not? Alban strikes me as a polite and considerate person to newbies.

Also I think he's way smarter than to scumslip about an avatar in the village thread when he could just have said that in their scum topic.

I still want to know why Klingon thought alban and Spade were scum together but didn't even list Spade as an FoS. I have a feeling I'll be saying Qapla' to somebody soon.

[MiniDeathStar]

Now that I have had time to actually read stuff and focus on the game, I'll give some preliminary reads.

I think alban is town. This looks like his townplay. Also I kind of agree with what he's saying. The profile picture thingy is just a silly accusation to make.

I don't know about Fountain. Hard to meta that

thing

(sorry, hydras creep me out), but the Transcend head is playing noticeably different than I remember. (Thank god for that, lol!) Tbh I like this new Transcend a looot better as a person. But the whole package known as Fountain is null right now.

Gamma seems town but I'll need to see more.

Klingon, idk. Something's off about that lady. Her reads look very forced.

Charloux could go either way. A lot of people think his interrogation of me was well-founded, and I could maybe get behind that if I also thought the me was concerned about Gamma on page 1. But the thing is, mafia!Charlie could just have seen an opportunity to scumread me and seized it, then dropped it when it stalled. Sure, it's a bit of a stretch but it still makes me reluctant to pay him some TownCred coins just yet. Call me paranoid. Also I didn't like his "FoS switch" accusation on Gamma.

Question for

@Tiger moth

- have you played any games on mafiascum or other forums before?

I don't think I have anything to say about the rest right now.


Finally there's this fellow:

Really, I wasn't actually trying to find scum.

If you weren't trying to find scum, what exactly were you trying to do? Psychoanalyse me? What was that whole bad cop act about?

And yet you say I pointed out several scummy things from others. This is a huge contradiction.

That contradiction is coming from you. Fountain thought you were scumhunting, *you* are saying you weren't. So again, what were you doing?

VOTE: lane0168

My turn to be the bad cop. Gamma can tell you all about it.

[MiniDeathStar]

Oh wait. I kind of missed the context in lane's post. The contradiction actually referred to the thing he was quoting from Fountain. Never mind that part then.

UNVOTE: lane0168

I would still like to know what the interrogation was about though, if it wasn't scumhunting.

[MiniDeathStar]

Yeah, I got that. It totally makes sense now. Sorry.

[MiniDeathStar]

Well, you certainly had the whole 'interrogation-room, faulty-light-fixtures, fist-slamming, barking-questions' crime procedural drama going on. Did you manage to get a read on me amidst all that? I can't really say for sure if you were scumhunting or not, everyone scumhunts in her own way, what matters is whether it works or not. Fountain thinks you were reaching (like, fake scumhunting). I was your suspect so I'm obviously biased. I personally think the whole idea that I was concerned about Gamma was ridiculous to begin with, but it seems like a few people disagree with me. That's why I'm giving you (and Tiger moth and alban and Charloux) the benefit of the doubt. But you are the one who questioned me so it's up to you to say whether you liked my reactions or not and whether you think I'm scum.

[MiniDeathStar]

What would you define concern as?

Worry / anxiousness about something?

[MiniDeathStar]

Hi, Kop. Nice to play with you again. Thank you for that catch-up post. I've written up my thoughts on it in bold gold text (aliteration totally intended).

Spoiler: Vivisection of Kop's catch up

Page one

3 votes pretty much straight away. Not a great deal to comment on those 3 votes since it's RVS, but it's worth something noting down for future use because even though it's RVS, sometimes scum find good enough reasons to have a slight distance of team mates by voting in such ways, as it's easy to do.

Really? I've never paid attention to RVS votes after an RVS ended.

And scum tend to try forge partnerships with town, possible creating pockets for town to slide into. Look at the whole partnership that has come from the whole RVS, creating misunderstandings, then boiled from there, to now on page four possible buddying from FOD and MDS.

Two things.
1) Buddying isn't a scumtell, especially this early and this minor.
2) I wasn't buddying Fountain. I assume you refer to their "let's lynch him?" That's pretty one-sided buddying. Where did *I* buddy anyone?

Not a good scum tell I know or may not even make sense in the manner I'm explaining it, but It's something I'm going to keep a good eye on, I think town reads early game are thrown around far too easily, and it can be easy for scum to forge that since they know who town are. So for the first few pages, FoS on MDS and Fountain of dreams.

Fountain's one head is Transcend, who as far as I can tell always dispenses reads like church flyers. IME this is not alignment indicative of him.
As for me, I'm usually extremely transparent with my thoughts and reads, even if they are weak. If you haven't seen it already, you will soon.

Fountain, I may have missed the post of you explaining your vote on spade then a full U turn to go back onto Gamma, what was that all about?

I think this was already discussed earlier and they said it was to create a wagon. I'd let them answer instead of me, but they aren't exactly known for answering questions.

Page two

FOD, what makes you think Charloux is town? What gives you that impression that he is town from the misunderstanding posts he made early on? How would you class a tunnel town motivated?

I, too, would like to know, but like I said above...

I disagree with your creature point of him being too careful. During RVS posts and votes come in fairly quick if everyone is on, and putting a wagon at L-1 when random votes are flying all over, it's easy for someone to jump in put a vote on someone (who may have gone onto L-1 as he is typing that vote out, and he could easily hammer if he fails to read the preview box. I don't see any scum motivation in that for you to vote for him, based on that.

FOD, in post 28 you were unsure of MDS and needed to investigate more. You didn't investigate up until you voted for him in post #42, after the little back and forth with Creature who you were voting for him, what made you turn around?

*cough* I'm female.

Lane, regardless if those 2 quotes show concern or not, she wanted to find out what reasons/motivations for them voting after her, yeah it's RVS, but there has to be a reason and whether it's RVS/serious/previous encounters etc. She will only find that by asking questions, I couldn't care less if it shows concern or not. Or am I reading it all wrong. If so, I apoligise.

I was slightly curious why they chose to sheep me over Spade's wagon, but mostly I was just trying to create discussion and get out of RVS. It was a random question.

Page three

Didn't see much worth commenting on.

Page four

Nothing catching either, apart from that buddying as stated earlier in page one. That makes me nervous.

Page five

MDS Post #116 RVS is a good tool to use, in my honest opinion. It sometimes can be used a indicator to things, get to know how people handle things etc etc, I've seen scum try set the tone early on the game and try maintain the same mentality than joining into it. Setting the tone, creating patterns, making pockets, creating avenues and just allowing the town to be sucked in, is something scum would like to do, rather than joining on town, makes more suspicion jumping on. . (However that is obviously dependant on how experienced that scum team are.) It can't all be used as 100% concrete facts.

Thanks, all that tells me is that RVS is useful to scum. And I'm not scum, soooo... Can I continue hating it now?

Page six

Lane post #131 for some strange little reason, I see town frustration. Mainly gut feeling.

Erhm, I can plausibly see both town!lane and mafia!lane getting frustrated at that.

Charloux post #141, how going from one scum read to another thing being brought up, how does that make it fake? It could be possibly he sees something bigger than you right now (albeit brought up by kingoncelt), doesn't make his read on you, fake.

Reminder: you can use [pøst]#141[/post] tags to make it a hyperlink. I had to dig through the pages to find those two posts. Just something to keep in mind in future, thanks. (sorry about the umlaut, idk how to parse BB code here)
Also, I already asked him that same question.

"Btw i'm 90% certain that this is Lane's town game. He seems to like being unpleasant as town when pushing hard. Or am i wrong?"

Your 90 % sure, but what is with the question on the end? What answer you aiming for here?

I think that's a bit far-fetched but points for the effort.

That's where am pretty much up too, the last two pages will have to come tomorrow.

All right.

tl;dr

I don't agree with some things and I think Kop's reads are a bit too preliminary but atm I don't think he's scum.

---

Hi bangthemafia! I hope you'll enjoy the game and your time on the site.

Spoiler: Vivisection of bangthemafia's catch up

Caught up finally!

The whole Charl - Mini interaction was interesting. When it was happening, it initially looked like townies nudging for scumtells, then I thought atleast 1 of them is a scum but as it went on for a bit too long- I started to get a feeling that both are townies. No reason why a scum would pick fight so early and come in limelight unless they are too experts.

But then again, it was Charl who started and not Mini.

So can see a scum-Mini getting defensive. But I am townreading both as of now. I also liked Mini's reads in general and her proactive scumhunting.

I don't get the part in green. Do you think I'm an expert and Charl isn't? Because I can totally assure you I am not.

@Lane- His interrogation of Mini also looked legitimate. Mild town vibes.
@Mini- can you elaborate your Lane vote. I didnt understand the reason.

I thought he said "I wasn't scumhunting" and I voted before I realised he was being sarcastic. It was a misunderstanding.

@Alban- I dont think a scum will make such a silly scumslip as to ask the partner to put an avatar. So Alban, Tiger Moth, SAJ, Spade- null reads as of now. Kop hasnt posted a single post.

I don't think so either. I know alban, he's way smarter than that.

@FoD has a weird playstyle. Dont know whether that happens to Hydras due to 2 heads! His too early clearance to some people, frequent vote shifting, in #92 his open buddying with Mini against Lane, earlier RVSing people to L-3 etc all is too text book scummy to be true. Paradox, but that makes me slot him as a reckless townie rather than a scum. But I have to watch him closely.

Um. That's... a pretty terrible read honestly. There's no such thing as too scummy to be true. And I don't think he was being textbook scummy. Or a reckless townie for that matter. I don't think any of those things you pointed out as "scummy" are alignment indicative this early in the game, especially for someone like Fountain.

FoS-
@Kling- Mildly scummy to me for basically suspecting people and for reasons that are either trivial (Alban for that avatar thing) or not agreeable to me (Mini) or too obviously scummy to be true (FoD). But he could be a paranoid townie as well.

Klingoncent is female. Also I don't think she's evil, but yeah her reads are rubbish.

@Gamma- You are actually voting someone for asking someone to get an avatar? Are you serious?? Also, what scumslip you see in your #101? Please elaborate.

I think he already elaborated.

@Creature- Not much content, posted just one liners (#19,20 etc), instead arguing about trivial things like why you lied (#22). His "not wanting to bring RVS wagon to L-1" also sounded weird & suspicious.

Why is it suspicious? He thought Gamma was at L-2 and explained why he won't vote him. End of story.

Need to observe more from many others.

tl;dr

Very bad reads, but this being bang's first forum mafia game I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't think he's deliberately bamboozling the town into a mislynch.

[MiniDeathStar]

Alban

, if you're very familiar with Spade's play then you had no reason to ISO him here. My original scumread stands. You two share the Scum PT.

He literally saw his friend, clicked his profile out of curiosity, and told him in the game thread to put a display picture. This is a really silly reason to FoS alban. Like, even if they did share the scum PT and alban wanted to tell him to put an avatar, he'd have done it IN THE BLOODY SCUM PT. Because alban isn't an idiot.

Like, even if he *is* scum, he's not scum for that thing in particular.

In recent games I was in the fake/forced thing came from one of my correct Scumreads.

So. The Scumteam is:
Alban
MiniDeathStar
Spade_Ace
Fountain of Dreams

I take it this isn't the first time someone has called your reads forced? Can't possibly imagine why. /s
How confident you are, 1 being "hunch" and 10 being "literally modconfirmed", that the scumteam is in those 4 and they all just happened to be so obvious that you found them on page 1?

Because reasons.

I can't say too much at this point in time, but what I saw is becoming site meta.

Meta is super unreliable. Like for example, I've only been on the site for a month and I haven't finished a single game yet. I've literally no idea what the site meta is so how could I have taken part in it?

Okay, the Mafia are 3 of those 4.

If there's a Serial Killer he/she might be outside that group.

Again, you can't be positive you've found 3 scum on page 1, based on the reasons you gave + "site meta". Assuming you're actually town, chances are you'll be tunneling the wrong people all game while the mafia rofl at you, or you'll have found some scum by pure luck like I feel you've done before.

Either way, I think your reads are total rubbish and I'll likely ignore any future read you happen to conjure in case your rock solid confidence wavers.

[MiniDeathStar]

Hello Secret Agent Jin. Nice to meet you again!

I spoilered the two posts because they were long af and I just thought I'd respond inline instead of quoting piece by piece. Klingon just happened to be spread over several short posts and that's why I made a separate post for her.

Now about that. How is defending myself "distancing" from others? In case you hadn't noticed I defend a lot of people, including alban who is on that same scumlist of Klingon's. Her biggest FoS actually. Does that look like distancing to you?

And the other thing, I don't really think Klingon is scum. She blatantly shoves her FoSes in everyone's face, insists on her flimsy, vague reasoning, and expresses super confidence ("the 3 scum are there", "my vote is parked", etc). She can't possibly expect anyone to sheep those votes right now. Doesn't strike me as a scum move; scum would prefer to persuade townies into a mislynch from behind the curtains.

That's why I think she's town, but I think her reads are very bad (as in poorly reasoned) and sticking with them is just very poor play. Even if she's actually found scum (because other than me I can't guarantee that the rest on her list aren't scum), that would be sheer luck. So I'm trying to dissuade her from chasing wild geese and get her to open her mind to the possibility she could be wrong. I am definitely not "deflecting blame" and I don't know where you got that from. My read on her from #166 was preliminary.

[MiniDeathStar]

Also, this part of your post on Klingon looks like you are trying to pull information out of her as to her role/alignment so you can judge how much threat she poses to

your

the scumteam.

Um, that's not what I would do as scum. Like, at all. (I was actually going to explain why but I don't think publicly revealing how I play as scum, or giving the real scum ideas would be a very bright move on my part. So let's just leave it at that.)

What I was actually trying to do was get Klingon to really think hard if she wants to spend the game tunneling 4 players based on a hunch. Because imagine somehow she gets two of them lynched and neither are scum, what happens then? She would have no clue what to do next, no reads, and scum could easily lead a lynch on her.

I'm a very tunnel-y player. I know mistakes are made, and I can see one being made on me right now, so I'm trying to avoid that while there's still a chance.

Ok... I can't... Are we really going to believe SAJ that he had this super long post but his delete key cut stuck so he's just there frantically trying to get it to stop deleting his post while watching his whole post be deleted and got it to stop at that part???

LOL. I totally missed that part. That's actually hilarious. Poor Jin. In future, Lazarus form recovery is your friend.

The wink seemed placatory to me. If your question was genuine it shouldn't have needed it.

Please tell me you're not overanalysing my emote. Like, read the question without the wink. It sounds way more serious than I wanted it to. I was done interrogating Charlie at that point and just wanted to clarify the argument between us was over.

Can it please now really be over?

[MiniDeathStar]

Tiger's quote is messed up but idc, she knows what she said.

[MiniDeathStar]

@Tiger moth:

I had a lot to say and splitting the entire quotes would have taken me super long time and they would have all appeared chopped up. I'm sorry I wasn't considerate with the gold text though; I'm using the black scheme and I haven't really tested what works best across all of them. I'll keep that in mind in future, thank you.

What's 'ott'? And sure, maybe. I'm not saying she *can't* be scum; I just don't *think* she is. I can't be certain of anything unless I have evidence.

If Klingon is scum, she may pass under the radar for a while, but I doubt she can last forever. I somehow can't see her surviving to 3-way LYLO and winning with this strategy. I think it's much more likely she'd be policy-lynched when most of her scumreads die as town and her confidence flops. In my experience towns that mislynch a couple times and lose their leaders to nightkills eventually grow paranoid of lurking scum and start lynching the kind of people that mafia would never kill while they still have the chance.

So for the moment I feel safe ignoring Klingon and focusing on other potential suspects. I might revisit her later in the game if I have to.

[MiniDeathStar]

How is defending myself "distancing" from others?

I actually missed your defense of alban, my bad. Are you saying its the opposite? Defending fellow scum? Just curious.
Also, i really thought there would be more for me to reply to, most of her post was just statements that i feel are reply-worthy. I will however reply to Fountains' posts in this one.

You didn't answer my question. How was I distancing?

Also, why is my defence now "defending fellow scum"? I'm buddying and distancing at the same time... ? And it's bad either way? Do you like even notice what you're saying?

*Also*, I feel like I addressed pretty much any concern you had. If you can't reply, does that mean you don't have anything to argue it with? You didn't even comment whether you were satisfied with my explanation or not.

To sum it up, I don't think you have a real case on me, so until you do, I don't owe you any further explanation.

How did you interpret it as panicky?

It just felt and read as panicky to me, no reasn behind the word i used.

That's one way to make me look scummy without having to put any real effort into it. How can I argue against "felt and read as panicky"? I believe on mafiascum they call this 'throwing shade'.

Why did you bring up this sentence then? What was the purpose of it?

It is from a different game, that game and this one have no relation but i did notice a bot of her playstyle and noted she was headed in the same direction. I am not bringing up any past games. Also, i dont know what the other shoe in her playstyle is but it feels as though she was going to keep on talking about Klingon and i didnt know if she was exactly done.

That game hasn't ended yet so I can't comment on it. As for Klingon, I was pretty much done with her (which is why I said I'd proceed to ignore her) until other people started bringing that interaction up.

how would Kling's reply be role/alignment indicative?

I was referring to the fact that Klingon might slip or MDS might read her one way and be able to form an opinion on Klingon's alignment which she could use to gauge the threat against the scum team.

Uhm, if I were scum, I'd obviously know if Klingon was scum or not. Why would I need to get a read on her

alignment

?

So you agree with her scumlist? And her reasons?

I think it is less that i agree with Klingon's scumlist and more that i read MDS as scum and if in the end she is, tha would put a suspicious gaze on the other members of Klingon's scumlist. I guess on the end i view the others on the list as guilty by association.

If you read me as scum, I'd appreciate it if you talked directly to me. You graciously humoured Fountain's questions but you barely said anything to me. Please lay out your accusations in clear text like Tiger moth did, so I have something to work with.

Also I can't help but notice you haven't at all commented on my earlier game, or Klingon's case that I was addressing. If your scumread is strong enough to warrant a vote, you shouldn't have trouble gathering more evidence to back it up. As of now you have none. "Feels panicky" isn't evidence.

@Fountain of Dreams:

Why were you lawyering me in front of Secret Agent Jin? Has your read on me changed, or did you just think his case was bollocks? Either way, I prefer to engage with people who suspect me directly. I think it helps them, me, and the rest of the village get easier reads by observing our reactions. Much harder to do that when you're acting as a proxy.

[MiniDeathStar]

@Mini, I am having trouble how to reply inline within a long quote.

I think certain people said they weren't comfortable with that format so I think it's best if you don't bother with it in future.

By textbook scummy I meant the usual tells that a scum may slip. In our whatsapp games, where I come from, if someone does any of these, they sure turned out to be either scummy or a reckless/too-casual-to bother townie. But since it was too early in the game, and you all are quite used to mafiascum forum, I guessed showing these traits so early in the game was more townish. I also read Open 658 and realized Transcend head of FoD is used to doing all this. Thats why I actually kinda cleared him though I get irritated with such players.

I don't think any of them were remotely alignment indicative. Early clearance doesn't mean you forget about that person for the rest of the game. Some people can get townreads early, through meta and stuff. Mafia in particular would want to keep the list of suspects as wide open as possible, so handing out townreads like Halloween candy is kind of like shooting themselves in the foot - unless they try to townread their scumpals. Which we can't know at this stage, so it's null.
Frequent vote shifting - again, some people do that a lot, especially early in the game. I don't agree with it, but I don't think it's scummy.
RVSing people to L-3 happens all the time here. Those wagons never last.
So basically none of that is any kind of scummy or reckless townie. It's just things I've learned to ignore.

@Gamma- You are actually voting someone for asking someone to get an avatar? Are you serious?? Also, what scumslip you see in your #101? Please elaborate.

I think he already elaborated.

Did he? Can you please quote the post no?

Post #105.

@Creature- Not much content, posted just one liners (#19,20 etc), instead arguing about trivial things like why you lied (#22). His "not wanting to bring RVS wagon to L-1" also sounded weird & suspicious.

Why is it suspicious? He thought Gamma was at L-2 and explained why he won't vote him. End of story.

Maybe. But it was hardly 20 posts till then. Gamma was actually at L-3. So is it impossible that Creature used FoD's double vote to fence sit and more than that announced to all that "yes, I am concerned about the wagons and so I am not voting" to get some towncred? I am not saying he is scum for sure but then also not "Clearly end of story" as you make out that to be.

I think Occam's razor is that Creature entered the game during RVS, saw I (mistakenly) commented Gamma was at L-2, and decided he wouldn't vote him because he didn't want an accidental RVS lynch (it's happened before). Otherwise he'd have joined the wagon, as people usually do during RVS. Both scum and town Creature could have done that so I think it's pointless to overanalyse it. That's why I said end of story. If you're building a case on someone, you should use things that you can't easily explain or rationalise from a town POV.

[MiniDeathStar]

Yay, more content from Spade_Ace!

Chaloux - Had what I felt was an unnecessary exchange with MDS regarding her being concerned about the wagon. He then went on to say it was a Sharade and that people who commented got a townread from him.

Is that suspicious to you or just interesting enough to note? You didn't voice an opinion.

MDS - Has been quite active and open about her thoughts. Not hesitant to engage with anyone. Though exchanges regarding her show of concern went further than needed. Some of her comments helped me in understanding parts of the game that I found confusing. Thanks for that. Have you played with alban before? (In 102, you say you are happy to finally play with him but everywhere else you give a character recommendation of him). I agree to your assessment on Klingon.

Yup, I definitely agree the whole concern episode went on for too long. I'm glad I was helpful, too. But again, you just mentioned stuff that I did. Is that suspicious or just notable? What's your take on it?

As for alban, I followed closely a game he was playing (Open 656) and then I filled his slot when he replaced out (I died in that game so feel free to review it, just don't talk about it because it hasn't ended yet). Anyway, I liked him as a player and a person and also I felt sorry that he got treated the way he did (I can kind of relate). That's why I was excited to finally play

with

him and not just

as

him.

Klingon continues to make an issue of something that has been shown to be a nonissue. One possibility is that she is just misguided.

Another, is that she could be a scum who wants to aggressively engage with a town player and then kill him/her at night. Then claim innocence by saying, "look, as a scum i would never have engaed with someone so much in the day and then kill him at night cos i know that would make me a suspect".

The part in bold. I really really don't like that part. It's super far-fetched and full of assumptions, not to mention that you literally just said you agreed with my assessment of Klingon, which was that she is town with bad reads.

I am unsure what to make of you right now. So far this stuff doesn't strike me as town.

[MiniDeathStar]

I don't know you so I'll accept that explanation for now, but for scum there's no one single possibility. They can kill whoever they want for any reason they want and speculating isn't helpful, all it does is give scum an idea about what they are expected to do.

[MiniDeathStar]

In other news, I don't like

Creature

this game. Playstyle's much more disengaged than I expect of him and so far he's provided no analysis or pretty much anything. Where's that "scratch the townreads out" list?
#184 I think looks more town than scum, but everything else doesn't. Is "too many scum" the only thing worth taking note of this game? He needs to pull it together.

I'm not sure who else I suspect atm. Fountain is still null. Alban is still town. Charlie could be town. Lots of lurkers and five-posters, I can't get a read on any of those.

[MiniDeathStar]

Sorry, that should be 184*.

[MiniDeathStar]

Not my fault everybody's being hard to read lol

Give it your best effort? Pretty please? For me?

I originally scumread MDS because her posts against Klingon looked way too defensive. I then proceeded to speak out of my butt without much evidence to back up my claim. I REALLY jumped the gun on MDS, all i can ask is for her forgiveness and that it be out to rest.

Okay, now I'm just... confused. I literally don't know what to think about this. Like, at all.

Judging by Klingon's join date and post count I doubt she's going to continue like that. How are you so sure that most of her scumreads are town?

When did I say I'm sure most of her scumreads are town? Reality check:

That's why I think she's town, but I think her reads are very bad (as in poorly reasoned) and sticking with them is just very poor play. Even if she's actually found scum

(because other than me I can't guarantee that the rest on her list aren't scum)

, that would be sheer luck.

In the post you quoted I was speaking under the assumption Klingon is scum and therefore at least mathematically wrong about having found "the 3 scum". Assuming that she's town and assuming there are 3 scum, she has about 67% chance of having no scum in her list, and about 1.8% chance of having all 3 (0.4% if you consider my POV because I know I'm not scum but I'm still in her list). So yeah, I'm going with her probably being wrong on most of those people, but I'm not excluding them from my suspect list. Just, *if* she's found scum, she's either been lucky or bussing. Her reasoning is complete bollocks.

Looks like you're preparing the ground for a future mislynch or bus (if she's a scumbuddy) here under the guise of a policy lynch.

I've literally no idea where you got that from. I already said I think she's town. Please stop misrepresenting me.

And please start interacting with people who aren't me. You're not being helpful right now and I can't get a read on you if all you do is tunnel me with "she winked!!!" and "she's totally preparing a mislynch on this townread of hers!!!"

[MiniDeathStar]

DAE think that Secret Agent Jin cease and desist was weird af? I've literally never seen that in any game I've ever played.

[MiniDeathStar]

My bad. Somehow I missed the opening part of that para. I was focusing on your use of the words "policy lynch" and your suggestion that her confidence would flop when her reads die as town. It seemed odd to use the word policy there, not just lynch. If we're lynching someone we think is scum, that's not a policy lynch. And it's townies who lose confidence when their scumreads flip town, not scum who are glad to have got another mislynch. I think that was what gave me the impression that you were thinking of her as town there.

Addressing this for the sake of transparency and completedness. The reason I was hypothetically speaking about Klingon as scum was because you suggested that super confident early reads (which I townread her for) would be a good cover for scum-her. I don't think they would be. How would scum-her explain her confidence once it turns out she was wrong? Because she has to know that's what's coming. I feel like whatever excuse she makes town would stop buying it after a while and lynch her based on principle (rationalising that if she's town, she's an extra suspect scum would never kill). That's what I called a policy lynch. Towns close to judgement day consider everyone a suspect.

That's why the only sound explanation I have is that she genuinely believes she's found the scum. Why did *you* doubt my townread on her? Do you have a reason to suspect Klingon?

I'm already addressing others but there hasn't been much I need to comment on yet. Fountain is stonewalling me so I'm not getting far there and most other stuff that's going on has either been questioned by others or I don't think is alignment telling.

I've been extremely transparent with you and everyone who accused me and you still think I'm scum. Why?

Fountain hasn't answered your questions. What's your opinion on that? They scumread you, too. Why did you ignore that?

I also find it pretty hard to believe you just think I'm the most interesting person this game. I'm super generous with my explanations and open with my thoughts, even if they are just hunches. Why do you need *me* to elaborate further but don't probe your zillion null reads for information?

You say the other stuff has been questioned by others. You must have thought those questions were reasonable then, since you didn't mention them. Why don't you say which questions you think are reasonable?

Honestly I've seen very little actual content from you that's not suspicion on me that I've already addressed. You're actively lurking and I don't like that.

I don't like anything from you right now.

Ill elaborate on my reason on the cease and desist. I believed your post against Klingon was scummy but then when i poated what i did, your response and defense against my claims were very well out and i changed my view on your alignment. I apoligize for thinking you were scummy.

Fair enough. Still weird but I think I get it now. Don't worry, I wasn't going to give you the Transcend treatment. Your reads were bad but they were still reads, not... that.

That still doesn't mean I'm townreading you though.

To anyone who's wondering, I think the apology was directed to me as a person and not as a player. I would explain why but that would break the rules. Just forget about it.

[MiniDeathStar]

@Klingoncelt:

I never force reads. Anytime someone says I have a post that seems fake or forced, they're lying, regardless of my alignment.

You mean you genuinely 'scumread' people as mafia? I don't buy that.

I can see I was wrong about you, too:

She can't possibly expect anyone to sheep those votes right now.

Please help me lynch Alban today.

In which case, what was up with this?

I'm a shit player on Day1, or at least that's my reputation. I expect to be ignored. So rather than waste my time trying to start wagons or anything I'll just point fingers today.

Here's you admitting you're a shit player on Day 1, yet you think I'm scum for doubting your reads and ignoring you. You're also admitting you wouldn't "waste your time trying to start wagons", but half your posts are you wasting your time trying to start an alban wagon.

Literally the only reason I'm townreading you right now is because I think your strategy is horrible scum play. But you know what? It's also horrible town play. Please pull it together or at least stop looking so scummy.

Now, as I was *saying*...

@lane0168

and

Gamma:

Can we not bring up RVS stuff again? That's like the most random, NAI thing that ever happens in games. We're 13 pages in right now, I'm pretty sure there are more significant tells you can attach yourselves to.

Also Creature wagon is probably bad. He isn't going to improve his game just because people are voting him. Do you think he's actually scum?

@bangthemafia:

At first I also thought Jin was scared that he bit off more than he could chew, but I now think another possible explanation is that he just didn't know how else to say that he was mistaken. I've only known him for a little but this strikes me more as a personality trait than alignment indicative. Like, it makes sense both as a panicked scum move and a regretful town move for him so I'd say it's null.

I'll need to see more of him before I form an opinion.

@Creature:

That... was your best? Uhm, okay. I would ask you to do the best of somebody better but nobody would get the reference. If you can't cope with the game, why don't you just replace out? I don't think you're helping either alignment right now.

@Charloux:

Thoughts on Gamma? You left him out of your list. Also why is Klingon your scummiest read?

@Fountain of Dreams:

I really think you should start answering people's questions. Almost nobody can read you right now and those who can think you're scum. Why should anyone trust your judgement?


Still waiting on catchup from

alban

and

Kop

.

Tiger moth

needs to respond properly or I'm voting her. I can't let her get away with that kind of posts any longer.

[MiniDeathStar]

Has anyone noticed how Fountain keeps tacitly defending me by attacking the people who FoS me, yet thinks I'm a null read? Don't you think that's a little weird? I think it's weird.

[MiniDeathStar]

RVS can be AI
You just need flips

AI how? Can you use an example from this game? I can't think of anything that can't be WIFOMed to hell.

[MiniDeathStar]

I mean, it *could* be, but that's a bit of a stretch. It could also be totally random.

Fountain has been for-real pressuring Spade_Ace for a while now. Why are you stuck on the RVS vote in particular?

[MiniDeathStar]

@MDS what makes you think he was defending you?

Okay, let's see...

Spoiler: The Empire Strikes Back

MDS

Lane's interrogation of you was awful.

Let's lynch him for that.

Fountain attacking Lane on my behalf.

MiniDeathStar's play is too Team Leader. The way she was sheeped is too. By you and Fountain.

Fountain throws Spade's name in for a split second, then sheeps Mini. I'll have to look through the Role Madness to see why Transcend hates me so much... found it - it's because I know how to play Wake non-bastard games. Someone got mad because as a Mason I called out the bad "Backup IC" claim. So his rage at me isn't exactly warranted.

Why are these scummy to you?

I personally think the whole idea that I was concerned about Gamma was ridiculous to begin with, but it seems like a few people disagree with me.

What would you define concern as?

Fountain attacking Klingon for FoSing me and themself.

Your whole post quoting Klingon reads as you panicking to me.

How did you interpret it as panicky?

As far as you being here a month and not finishing a game, i only have one other game to base my experience with you on and we both know how that went, i wont say anymore on that.

Why did you bring up this sentence then? What was the purpose of it?

I will give it to you that you argue your points well but i am waiting for the other shoe to drop with your playstyle.

What's the other shoe in her playstyle?

How confident you are, 1 being "hunch" and 10 being "literally modconfirmed", that the scumteam is in those 4 and they all just happened to be so obvious that you found them on page 1?

Also, this part of your post on Klingon looks like you are trying to pull information out of her

as to her role/alignment

so you can judge how much threat she poses to

your

the scumteam.

Referring to the bold, how would Kling's reply be role/alignment indicative?

Fountain grilling Jin after he laid his case on me.

Sorry for being so grumpy last night. I was very tired.

ott = over the top

Judging by Klingon's join date and post count I doubt she's going to continue like that. How are you so sure that most of her scumreads are town? Looks like you're preparing the ground for a future mislynch or bus (if she's a scumbuddy) here under the guise of a policy lynch.

Bad post. Welcome to the scum pile.

Fountain scumreading Tiger after her latest attack on me.

Also in most of those cases I already had written an elaborate defence. I didn't need his interference.

I mean, I could be imagining it and only noticing it as a pattern because it involves me. That's why I asked what the rest of you thought.

@MDS:I don't want to associate with gamma, and one of us will die soon enough. I will keep my read on klingon for a little bit.

That... is an interesting statement.

I literally don't know how to interpret this.

[MiniDeathStar]

That was kind of my reaction, too, but I worded it a little better.

[MiniDeathStar]

@Klingoncelt: vote Fountain, they're scum

I see you're the new Harkonnen.
I bet alban's going to jump with joy. /s

I never suggested that super confident early reads would be a good cover. I had the impression that it was poor play and tunnelling you were talking about (from 213 and 216) where you said that she might have no clue what to do next if her reads were lynched and would be lynchbait. That's why I said what I did in 263. It didn't look right in view of her experience.

It takes one to know one. When you're super super sure you've found the mafia, you subconsciously read everything from them as scummy and everything from the rest as town. Then when a suspect of yours dies as town, you'll be back at square zero and have to acquire reads all over again. Do this twice and town starts suspecting you of leading mislynches. This can happen regardless of your experience, because we all make mistakes and we're all vulnerable to confirmation bias.

Right now you're doing the same thing. You've already decided I'm scum (or a good lynch) and anything I say and do feeds into your read, like... a wink emote.

you keep trying to draw my attention back to you while at the same time complaining that I'm looking at you

I only started seriously engaging you after I got fed up with your bullshit tunnel on me. Everything else before that was just me defending myself. That's not "drawing your attention", it's the opposite. Should I have ignored your accusations instead?

Klingon is making a lot of assumptions in 275 and 276.

Getting an odd feeling about Charloux.

Vote: Fountain of Dreams

You don't say.

[MiniDeathStar]

I make it look genuine.

Reality check:

MiniDeathStar's play is too Team Leader. The way she was sheeped is too.

Fountain throws Spade's name in for a split second, then sheeps Mini.

Because reasons.

I can't say too much at this point in time, but what I saw is becoming site meta.

These are your super genuine reads. Vague interpretations ("too team leader") and naked facts ("throws Spade's name, then sheeps") that are only scummy "because reasons". And of course you can't talk about it.

Totally not forced reads.

You're even wrong about the site meta's relevance. Trascend/Fountain is an EM player, alban and Spade are WhatsApp players and I'm a previously retired forum mafia player from a site that's now defunct. My last game was in 2011. If there is a site meta "due to influx of new players from another site", which there very well may be, you're misapplying it right now.

Also I'm not scum. So when I eventually die and reveal as town, get over that self-assurance and arrogance of yours and stop thinking you're a godlike scumhunter and so much better than everyone. You're not. Your reputation exists for a reason. Too bad you can't see it.

[MiniDeathStar]

*sigh*

Tiger moth

still looks scummy but I don't think I want to vote her anymore. Less confident in that read now.

Fountain

lynch I can probably agree with, but I'm a little apprehensive to sheep these people in particular.

Charloux

isn't town anymore. That bizarro sentence made me super uncomfortable.

I've too few scumreads this game and lots of null reads. I keep getting dragged in useless arguments. I really should take a step back.

P. Edit: Yeah, okay. Fair. Sorry.

[MiniDeathStar]

Yup, Tiger's probably not scum.

VOTE: Fountain of Dreams. If this is scum, Klingon takes 0 credit for it.

[MiniDeathStar]

You're at L-2. Lane, Gamma, Tiger moth, Klingon, Me. 5/7.

[MiniDeathStar]

But yeah, I haven't heard from alban and Kop in days. Let's not lynch prematurely on Day 1.

UNVOTE: Fountain of Dreams.

[MiniDeathStar]

But yeah, I haven't heard from alban and Kop in days. Let's not lynch prematurely on Day 1.

UNVOTE: Fountain of Dreams.

How many townie points would you like from this post?

I'm kind of running low on town credit in certain circles, so I'd like ten town dollars please.

Seriously though, why was that town? I could easily be scum steering the lynch away from my partner?

@Klingon:

I think I'm done talking to you. Sorry for being rude, I didn't mean to insult you, this game is making me tense sometimes. I just don't think there's anything productive coming out of our argument anymore so I'd like to stop. Vote whoever you want, just don't expect me to agree with your reads.

@Charloux:

You still didn't explain why you thought one of you would die soon? And I get not wanting to read a hydra (Gamma isn't a hydra btw, Fountain is), but why would you not want to "associate" with him? And how is giving a read "associating"? Sorry for asking so many questions but your post was really perplexing.

[MiniDeathStar]

Oh, I almost forgot.

@Klingoncelt:

Qapla'

[MiniDeathStar]

Gamma, I have literally no idea what you're talking about. What hypocrisy? And who gave me shit for unvoting you? I only ever voted you during RVS?

Like seriously, are we playing the same game here?

[MiniDeathStar]

I don't remember being attacked for unvoting but whatever. I'm not even sure why I got towncredit for unvoting Fountain. I even said that.

[MiniDeathStar]

I thought you were suspecting Charloux, not lane?

[MiniDeathStar]

I'm not even sure who I'm suspecting right now because everyone in this town is either lurky or weird af.

But I'm townreading (to various degrees)

bangthemafia

,

Tiger moth

,

Klingoncelt

and

Secret Agent Jin

right now. I want to townread

alban

, too, but he hasn't given me reasons lately and his lurking pretty much erased my initial townread on him.

I know

Gamma

is habitually weird because I've played with him, and I remember someone saying

Charloux

and

lane0168

tend to be weird, too. So I'll probably not lynch those *today*.

The rest are scummy, lurkers and/or scummy lurkers. Lots of people suspect a

Spade_Ace/Fountain pair

, me included, which makes me uneasy. It just sounds too good to be true. Especially since the arguments against Fountain involve things I know he does as a matter of playstyle, like not answering questions, churning out townreads and not providing any reasoning. I kind of want to see how his replacement plays.

Basically... if someone can convince me on a Spade lynch, I may sheep that. I just can't even this game on my own.

[MiniDeathStar]

I've never townread Fountain and I've been saying he's weird since pretty much the beginning of the game. Especially with trying to defend me by attacking specifically people who FoS me. I feel like a possible explanation for that could be him trying to keep my attention on my attackers by making them look scummy. I just said that other people's reasons against him are (IME) not indicative of his alignment. That's why I want to get a read on his replacement.

I don't think his replacement request is a town tell, neither do I think he's done anything particularly townie so far. You can townread him for any reason; maybe you're his scumpal, maybe you're scum and you know he's town, or maybe you're town and are ignoring his meta. The only thing I can be sure of is that nobody has produced a logical townread on Fountain as of yet.

As for you, I don't have sufficient reasons. I'm just going by bangthemafia's meta analysis of you, other people's reads on you, and a little bit of intuition. If someone makes a solid case on you that I agree with, I will vote you. My mind isn't set in stone.

I also haven't said I'm scumreading alban, I said I'm not townreading him anymore. I just don't like how he's lurking. The game I replaced him in he was town and quite active and analytical. He was also like that here at the beginning of the day and I townread him for it; now he isn't. How long do you expect me to keep my old read? At some point I have to stop giving him the benefit of the doubt. It'll be up to him to gain my trust again.

Basically the only reads I changed in my last post were Fountain from null to scum-leaning and alban from town to null. You can't accuse me of switching alignments and making U turns based on that.

[MiniDeathStar]

Because I suck at reading this game and because bangthemafia and alban know Spade better than anyone and can read him much more accurately.

[MiniDeathStar]

@alban:

If you could dayvig anybody right now, who would you pick?

[MiniDeathStar]

Unofficial Votecount

Gamma Emerald

(L-3) - lane0168, Gamma Emerald, alban, Secret Agent Jin

Fountain of Dreams

(L-5) - Klingoncelt, Tiger moth

Not voting:

Charloux, Kop, MiniDeathStar, Creature, bangthemafia, Spade_Ace

Note:

randomidget hasn't been online in 72h, we might have a mod abandon here.

Gamma, can you please explain what you're doing? I think I'm still stuck in this face after reading the last two pages.

[MiniDeathStar]

This is literally the randomest lynch. What's it going to prove? What's the point of it? If Gamma is town, why is he self-voting? Why are you running this 'experiment' at all?

I'm seriously not following, guys.

[MiniDeathStar]

Rereading the last couple pages, I think the whole fake wagon was because Charlie was mad at Gamma for calling him a pokémon and Gamma decided to troll a little further? Um, guys. I'm sure you can settle this without tying ropes to each other's necks. Lower the testosterone a little.

@Secret Agent Jin:

Last time I checked, I wasn't a septivoter so how can I look bad when I vote Spade "alone" and he flips town? Why would I look bad at all for lynching a scummy townie anyway?

[MiniDeathStar]

I'm not answering for Gamma, I'm expressing my opinion? I already asked Gamma to clarify like twice and he ignored me. I'm just trying to make sense of it all.

[MiniDeathStar]

But the other side is that, mafia would know joining a band wagon would make them suspicious and hence prefer not to vote while criticising the ppl who participated in it. So I don't know whether this wagon exercise served any purpose.

Sheeping a vote isn't always suspicious, sometimes the suspicious thing is *not* voting on the wagon. But if mafia doesn't vote and criticises people who do, kind of like what you're doing right now, does that make you mafia? Because like, you haven't voted anybody all game, but you were very happy to comment on other people's votes.

@SAJ why didn't you remove your vote sooner if you felt this test was 'idiotic'??...you removed it only after Gamma unvoted. Were you hoping for someone to hammer and then on realising that the lynch wasn't taking place, decided to remove your vote?Does this mean you no longer find him suspicious?

That's an extreme misrepresentation of what Jin did. He removed his vote as soon as he got online and saw how bad the wagon was. His vote on Gamma was from way earlier. Only mafia need to misrepresent their suspects.

VOTE: Spade_Ace

if you have sufficient reasons go ahead and vote for me...I have no issues in being lynched if you have some good conviction to back it up.....

We'll see about that.

[MiniDeathStar]

What's your opinion on Tiger moth?

I'm leaning town on her.

[MiniDeathStar]

@MDS
1. I started with an assumption. So I know sheeping isn't always 'suspicious'? And I go on to say if that was the assumption then the exercise might not have been useful.

Okay.

2. You are the one misrepresenting my interpretation of SAJ.

No I'm not. I'm commenting on exactly what you wrote.

I know his vote was from an earlier analysis. Cos lane had just mentioned it two comments back. And I know that him coming online, seeing the drama was a possibility. (To elicit a response from someone I don't need to mention all possibilities). I wanted him to say that not you.

What was the other possibility? I really don't see any. It certainly wasn't what you accused him of.

How are you so sure he wasn't online when the drama was taking place esp when he voted within an hour of Gamma changing....Why are you jumping to his defence?....

Because I think the attack is coming from the mafia. Did you think that just because I don't have a strong scumread on you I wouldn't be watching your posts like a hawk and wait for you to slip up?

the reason I was questioning him was cos I thought he was quick in changing the subject....

Then why didn't you question him on that? You didn't even mention it.

I just wanted a response nothing more....

So you're saying you were reaction testing Jin? You know, I don't really buy that. First of all, there's no scummy explanation for what Jin did. Yours is bs. You implied Jin was watching the wagon unfold and then stop, then waited an hour to look like he was offline, and then said the wagon is idiotic because it stalled. I don't think that's remotely plausible an explanation. Second of all, what possible reaction were you hoping to draw out of Jin? Have him panic and hint that he really actually did lurk the wagon out before condemning it?

I'm sorry, but I don't buy any of this. Like, at all.

3. But you jumping to his defence makes me feel maybe he is right to change the subject back to the so called Spade/FoD vs MDS that he mentioned. Are you trying to score townie points?

Do I look like I need town points? I'm trying to catch the scum. Your attack on Jin was incredibly scummy. You should have known people would spot an obvious lie and call you out on it.

I also don't appreciate that you're defending yourself by trying to make *me* look scummy ("trying to score townie points"). Wasn't I your town read recently? I guess that changed when I went after you. Does that mean you think my attack is unreasonable and my logic is wrong? If not, why am I scummy for it?

[MiniDeathStar]

Trigger of what now?

[MiniDeathStar]

I would spontaneously ovulate if Ted replaced Transcend every game.

*cough* Anyway. He's either too good at this or he's town and I read Fountain wrong. In either case, I think I'll remove him from my scum pile for now. There definitely are better candidates for his spot.

She says if I'm right I get no % of the credit. I say but if I'm wrong I bet I get 100% of the blame.

Why are you having problems with context?

I'm just fine on context. The only one talking about 100% of the blame is you.

Just because it comes out of your mouth doesn't mean it originated from

her

head.

Now who's the one struggling with context?

Since this became a thing, I just want to clarify what I meant by credit. Klingon has been scumreading Fountain since page 1, for absolutely terrible reasons, but she's 100% sure she's nailed the scum team. I was saying that even if Fountain/Ted turned out to be scum, Klingon shouldn't credit herself with amazing scumhunting, since she couldn't have known for sure that early and for that reason. It would just be pure luck.

Basically I was just trying to avoid letting her boost her own ego for that lynch if it turned out to be correct.

When it takes 7 to lynch, I wouldn't 100% blame a mislynch on one single person.

[MiniDeathStar]

Alban, Kop, Tiger moth, I miss you all.

[MiniDeathStar]

@TwiszTed:

Any thoughts at all on

Spade_Ace

? He's kind of my current favourite for today's lynch.

[MiniDeathStar]

Well, I have a short list but considering how hard it is for me to read this game full of lurkers and weird people, it's the best I have right now.

1. His reads appear convenient. He town reads the popular people and scumreads the current suspects of the day. He revoked his townread on me as soon as I said I was suspecting him.
2. Meta analysis from bangthemafia and alban says he's playing noticeably different.
3. The blatant misrepresentation of Jin that I pointed out, and then the poor excuse of reaction testing and something he found scummy but didn't even mention in the "reaction test".
4. The fact that he defends himself by throwing shade on his attackers rather than by logical explanations.
5. He's overly jumpy in a bad way. Instead of asking people to elaborate (or offering to explain himself), he immediately kicks anyone who says anything bad about him into the scum pile.
6. Intuition. This is more for me than a formal case but I have this nagging feeling that his posts just

sound artificial

. His reads, his explanations, everything. I can't tell if it's my confirmation bias or

FEMALE SIXTH SENSE

something I know I see but can't put into words so I'm not giving it much weight. Just a hunch.

[MiniDeathStar]

Are you sure you're not attacking mislynch baits?

No. How can I be sure?

[MiniDeathStar]

Personality quotes time!

lane0168:

"Are you always like this when you're scum? What is your motivation now? Why would town do this? Does that mean you're not town? Why are you scum? Town's delete key never gets stuck."

Klingoncelt:

"The whole scumteam slipped on page 1. It's the new meta. Sheep me because my reads are so accurate that whoever I name gets mod-converted to scum."

Tiger Moth:

"You winked. Vote: you"

Gamma Emerald:

"HOLY SHIT THIS IS THE SCUM CAN'T YOU GUYS SEE IT?!?!"

Fountain of Dreams:

"Town. Town. Town. Town. Town. Scum. Town. Town. Scum. Maybe scum. Lynch this, game over, don't ask why."

TwiszTed:

"I have a lynch boner for you, too."

alban:

"I ISO everybody in every game of theirs, print their posts and run them through an heuristic algorithm to compute their online schedule. I just like to know who I'm playing with."

Charloux:

"Did you just call me a pokemon? I WILL MURDER YOU FOR THAT."

Kop:

"See what you did on page 2? You're scum for it. RVS is the whole game."

Creature:

"Are you POSITIVE this is the scum? What if this isn't the scum?"

Secret Agent Jin:

"Oh my god I'm so sorry I thought you were scummy, I've literally no idea how I came up with that. Please forgive me!"

bangthemafia:

"Care to elaborate? Give reasons? I agree BUT PLEASE GIVE REASONS?!"

Spade_Ace:

"Either you're town with a scumread, or you're scum and you're going to murder him, her, and him in the next 3 nights, then claim you're town because he died and he is scum because she died, but you can't be scum because he also died. And you're going to earn huge townie points in that case because you lurked his wagon out but responded 1h later to make it look like you were offline. WHAT I AM JUST SAYING THERE ARE TWO POSSIBILITIES HERE."

[MiniDeathStar]

*hammers the town bell* Waaaake uuup, townies!!

[MiniDeathStar]

I feel like Jin and I are the only people with detailed cases attached to our votes right now. Tell me again why I should vote one of the others and not Spade?

Also I'm sad. I used to be so much more persuasive. Nobody is sheeping me this time.

Kop:

"See what you did on page 2? You're scum for it. RVS is the whole game."

This is wrong, darling.

Okay fine.

"This is wrong, darling" <- That's your new personality quote.

[MiniDeathStar]

I'm not even sure if he's actually scum or not and you're asking me for secondary reads? Clam down please. One thing at a time.

Also I can't help thinking it's a little unfair that you expect this kind of super analysis from me, which you haven't asked of anyone else, nor provided yourself.

[MiniDeathStar]

Clam down

I swear that wasn't a Freudian slip!

[MiniDeathStar]

Wow. Guys, seriously, easy on the testosterone. Please. This game is bad enough without everybody replacing out near the deadline.

[MiniDeathStar]

Sigh. It's okay, it's not like anybody was going to lynch Ted. His replacement isn't game-breaking. I hope he's having fun in his other games.

If this short discussion was enough to make someone RQ, i think the original players would be reduced to 1/3 or something.
PS:748 is where this started, so the reason he is being replaced is because of himself *snicker*

Actually, I totally understand how he feels. I've been in his position and I know how frustrating it is to put up with trolling and force yourself through a game you don't really enjoy. No need to snicker at people who already have a hard time.

[MiniDeathStar]

Twisz, don't be impulsive. Think about it with a cool head. I am hoping that you will come back. He wasn't disrespecting you.
Secret, let things cool off. Hold off interacting with him for a bit. You can comment on other things.
Please keep it together, all.

He won't. I messaged him to calm him down and he said maybe next time. I'm sorry.

[MiniDeathStar]

Alban, do you have any thoughts on Secret Agent Jin? It seems like a few people hold him as a suspect right now.

[MiniDeathStar]

Hey Gamma.

3) If you catch softing and no one else seems to have, TELL THE TOWN. Scum will likely find it anyway.

Would you do us the honours or should I?

[MiniDeathStar]

Softclaiming?

[MiniDeathStar]

Please don't answer instead of Gamma. I'm trying to get him to talk.

[MiniDeathStar]

Is this townier to scummier?

No, this is literally the list order on the first page. I was just messing around with people.

I'm not answering. You said either him or you are going to out a softclaim that seems to have gone unnoticed. I'm asking you if you think that's a good idea and why? I'm not answering whether you or gamma should be the one to do it

The theory (Gamma's theory) is that outing softclaims helps town because scum are actively hunting for them and have likely seen them already.

I actually kind of agree with it, but I wanted to remind Gamma of his own standard of townplay and maybe nudge him to reread carefully.

Oh, and hi all. I'm baaaaaaack.

Omg welcome back!! ♥

[MiniDeathStar]

Well first of all, scum aren't the only people who should be searching for softclaims. Doctors, watchers, etc need to do that too.

Second of all, I wasn't even looking for it but I noticed it anyway. I think there's a good chance scum has, too, and they are going to share it in their scum topic. Why shouldn't town know something scum knows?

And yes, there is a difference between softclaims and breadcrumbs. Softclaiming is like implying your role indirectly or hinting at it ("who should cop check tonight?"). Breadcrumbing is basically cryptography ("

I

c

an tell that from those

3

pe

o

ple on the wagon,

one

p

robably is scum" spells out cop).

[MiniDeathStar]

Oh my god, please tell me we're NOT still talking about Spade's avatar. That dead horse should have been fossilised 30 pages ago.

Also is it just me or is Gamma really V/LA for *a month*?

[MiniDeathStar]

Dont take people's words for things, it makes you look suspicious. I know his explaination cleared something up concerning the start of the game but i made a case against Spade containing different reasoning. The following is all from my perspective. i scumread Spade and you saying Spade is a townlean after the alban post was cleared up looks hinky to me. Alban's post doesnt clear anything up for me regarding my view

VOTE: Gamma

Do you think that makes Gamma scummier than Spade?

Also is it just me or is Gamma really V/LA for *a month*?

Yes
Until christmas break

Wellll have fun! But don't abandon us!!

[MiniDeathStar]

And so moves Charloux ever closer to the dreaded scumpile.

[MiniDeathStar]

Well, I have a short list but considering how hard it is for me to read this game full of lurkers and weird people, it's the best I have right now.

1. His reads appear convenient. He town reads the popular people and scumreads the current suspects of the day. He revoked his townread on me as soon as I said I was suspecting him.
2. Meta analysis from bangthemafia and alban says he's playing noticeably different.
3. The blatant misrepresentation of Jin that I pointed out, and then the poor excuse of reaction testing and something he found scummy but didn't even mention in the "reaction test".
4. The fact that he defends himself by throwing shade on his attackers rather than by logical explanations.
5. He's overly jumpy in a bad way. Instead of asking people to elaborate (or offering to explain himself), he immediately kicks anyone who says anything bad about him into the scum pile.
6. Intuition. This is more for me than a formal case but I have this nagging feeling that his posts just

sound artificial

. His reads, his explanations, everything. I can't tell if it's my confirmation bias or

FEMALE SIXTH SENSE

something I know I see but can't put into words so I'm not giving it much weight. Just a hunch.

[MiniDeathStar]

Tiger moth's reads make me roll my eyes but hey, I've been super wrong before. I shouldn't judge.

Trivia:

I'm super scared of moths irl. Like literally banshee screech + flight response scared. Even Tiger moth's avatar is slightly unsettling to look at.

[MiniDeathStar]

Tiger moth's reads make me roll my eyes but hey, I've been super wrong before. I shouldn't judge.

Why not? It's your job to judge.

Because everybody is being so weird this game that I don't have a single solid town read. All my reads are approximations. I know it's my job to judge but I don't want to show hubris by dismissing other people's opinions when I have little to back up mine with.

[MiniDeathStar]

Third, MDS's

point 1

. Absolute lie, and gives a false idea. First, just because I ask you a question, don't immediately jump to the conclusion I am scumreading you. Did I explicitly say, that I think you are scum. When did I revoke your "townread"?

Here:

You were one of my top most town reads. [...] I feel like you are conviently aligning yourself based on the scenario.

Had I still been a townread, you wouldn't have used the past tense.

Next,you say my reads appear convenient. When most thought that FoD was scum I thought he was town. Was that convenient??? Tellme when was it that I scumread the current suspects of the day? Absolute lie. In your own words, "please elaborate". I agree with your statement that I was townreading the so called popular people (you, alban, FoD, gamma).

The reads in 240. You copied my own description of my game, my reads on alban, Gamma and Klingon and Fountain's reads on lane and Tiger moth. You conveniently didn't state your opinion on me (because a few people were null/scumreading me), Charloux (same reason) and did that weird thing with Klingon and SAJ that appeared to be agreement with me but not stating a definitive opinion so you could leave your options open. I even called you out on it back in 242 and you basically said "idk". All in all, 240 was a big bag of IIoA disguised as scumhunting.

You did the same thing in 377. Fountain is suddenly not a town read after he got wagoned. But notice how he isn't a scumread either? More IIoA. Same with Creature. "Either he actually doesn't have reads on anyone or he isn't providing insights cos he fears he might scumslip." You did this so often that I based your whole personality quote around it. Why do you keep giving two possibilities for everyone? Of course everyone can be town or scum, and do towny or scummy things, HOW is that scumhunting?

Talking of convenience, how conveniently did you vote against FoD when everyone was voting for him (though you did remove the vote immediately). Then when Ted started with his style of scum hunting you removed your suspicion on FoD slot.

I voted Fountain because I was suspecting him, and my unvote didn't erase that suspicion, I just wanted to avoid premature lynch when we could squeeze out more information out of Day 1. Ted did dull a lot of my suspicion but so far I've not seen him do anything that screams town and I don't agree with his reads list. Your point? How is any of that convenient for scum-me?

Fourth,

point 4 and 5

. These two are more or less the same point. Makes it seem as if you are trying to show you have multiple points.

Point 4 refers to how you defend yourself and point 5 refers to your quickness to OMGUS everybody.

They are a misreport of what I did and reeks of hypocrisy.You say I immediately kick anyone into the scumpile without offering any explanation.

That's not what I said. I said instead of asking "please explain why I'm scum?" or "why do you think that's scummy? I was just...", you do things like 475, 491 and 552. Suddenly I'm "conveniently aligning myself" (the irony ) and Gamma is "that stupid" for daring to suggest you might be mafia. [I concede you're actually right about Gamma, you didn't call him scum. I was under the impression you did because you called *me* scum.]

Did I attack alban in any way for calling me scummy? No.

When alban called you scummy I had already laid my case and you knew if you attacked *him* you'd get autolynched. Plus he was your perpetual townread and you couldn't back off now without appearing obvious. You changed your defence tactic.

Regarding hypocrisy, need I remind you of what happened between you and Charloux, and you and lane. You voted against the person who was questioning you.

I voted Charloux on page 1. His question was sketchy and voting him was an opportunity to exit RVS. As for lane, I didn't vote him until a few pages after his interrogation on me and for a totally different reason.

Sixth,

point 6

. If I do end up getting lynched, I want you to have a good and hard look at your intuition /

FEMALE SIXTH SENSE

(as you put it).

This is actually the first thing I've seen from you that could be genuine town frustration... even though it's literally the same thing I said to Klingon which made bang think I'm confirmed townie.

Now if I am scum, then who are my partners??? If am lynched and my town card flips, who are you going to suspect??...Do you have anyone who you could link on an associative basis at least?

If you're scum, I'm going to look at the people who were townreading you or were reluctant to vote you. Creature, probably Tiger moth or Kop?

If you're town, it will depend on the night kill and the people on your wagon. But you're not close to being lynched anyway.

[MiniDeathStar]

VOTE: alban

Willing to vote here or Tiger Moth.

I'd like a good reason why we should vote alban please? So far all the arguments against him have been lurking and the avatar thing. I'm not convinced.

[MiniDeathStar]

Creature is playing like 50 games at a time. I can sort of understand why he isn't putting in any effort.

[MiniDeathStar]

I could ask half the people here the same question.

[MiniDeathStar]

Spade has already softclaimed vanilla townie. Just in case you missed that.

[MiniDeathStar]

I don't think Klingon is the only person voting alban for the avatar. So far I haven't heard a detailed case on alban being scum. Like, at all.

[MiniDeathStar]

That would be too good to be true. I think Spade would be smarter than to blatantly buddy partner!alban, especially now that they are both on the line.

[MiniDeathStar]

My only solid scumread is Spade, his alignment can potentially incriminate Creature and perhaps Tiger moth or Kop. If I'm wrong and he's town, I'll look into whoever helped the lynch happen and analyse the night kill (if it's not me, lol).

I have soft townreads on bangthemafia, lane, Klingon and Secret Agent Jin (in that order). Everyone else has been acting too weird for me to really get a read. I don't think I see anything that screams town or scum to me.

P. Edit: Spade, because look at my personality quote for her and you'll see.

[MiniDeathStar]

Softclaims *generally* hurt town and help scum. But if you're town and notice a softclaim, you should out it unless you're a doctor/watcher. It's better that everyone knows instead of just the scum (who should be looking for softclaims always).

[MiniDeathStar]

Whats a VI?

Roman numerals for 6.

Kidding, it means village idiot. Like, bad play from a townie.

[MiniDeathStar]

MDS you seen a soft claim of a VT, can you point it out as I've looked and can't see it.

I just can't get my head around how your going through your thought process. You seen a soft claim of a VT, but you haven't outed it like you said you have just said.

The reply to alban in green text. "What sort of a villager says that?" (offers to be lynched). Somebody expendable. Like a villager with no superpowers.

As to why I didn't out it earlier, honestly I probably should have. I did make a big deal about it a few pages ago but like, nobody seemed to care much and there were even people saying it was obvious or that I should stfu. And like, by the time I logged again we'd already moved away from it so I decided to just keep my piehole shut until the time was right (now).

That does sound like a decent plan. Esp after my mistake of softclaiming. But why have you removed alban and twisz from townlist?

I removed alban a while ago because I didn't like his lurking. I was initially townreading him because it looked like his gameplay from the game I replaced him in, but then he got lurky and switched to making cameo appearances. It's just not the alban I'm used to, and I'm not sure if it's because his alignment/role is different or because he's just not invested enough in the game.

I never townread Ted. I like him better than Transcend for sure and I'm not scumreading him atm but so far I don't think I've seen a reason to trust him either. He's been kind of sheepy and disengaged after his catch up and I don't see his case on alban other than the avatar thingy.

[MiniDeathStar]

I can't believe you're all voting alban over Spade or even Creature. Like seriously. I haven't heard a single good reason why alban should be today's lynch.

[MiniDeathStar]

Lane, you've literally never even mentioned the guy until now. What's with the vote?

[MiniDeathStar]

1) Spade claimed VT already. Even if he's town, mafia would never kill him. Plus, town!Spade would discard alban's "scumslip" once and for all.

2) There's no case on alban other than the "scumslip".

3) You could have wagoned Creature. Why didn't you?

[MiniDeathStar]

Your case boils down to "he let people speculate on his scumslip". Isn't enough for me. I'm only defending him from being framed for something that isn't scummy. If you point out a flaw in his reads or actions, then I'll be your guest and sheep it. But I'm not voting him over *that*.

[MiniDeathStar]

That's lovely. If anti-town behaviour is a strong scumtell to you, why aren't you voting Creature or Charloux?

Scum makes up scumreads or can townread people prematurely. Also notice I said reads OR actions. I don't quite like alban's involvement in the game but that's pretty much it. You're basing your whole case on something that should have been forgotten at this point but is continuously brought up, and now I'm scum for disagreeing with you. Sorry but you're not helping your case.

[MiniDeathStar]

^ That's somebody I could vote, too, if Spade flips town.

[MiniDeathStar]

That's L-1. Spade, anything more you want to say?

[MiniDeathStar]

Damn. Spade might indeed be town after all.

Sorry, Spade, I'd switch to Creature right now but I don't think it can gain enough traction given the activity this game.

If I don't survive the night (and Spade flips town), consider Charloux and maybe Creature tomorrow. Good luck.

[MiniDeathStar]

VOTE: Creature

[MiniDeathStar]

If anti-town behaviour is a strong scumtell to you, why aren't you voting Creature or Charloux?

Because anti-town behavior isn't a scumtell.

Ted, what's your case on Tiger moth? Is it the "unplanned/unexpected distancing" or is there more to it?

[MiniDeathStar]

Umm, literally no idea why I quoted that. Please ignore the quote part.

[MiniDeathStar]

That does sound like a decent plan. Esp after my mistake of softclaiming.

Cool. L-1. Someone just needs to hammer. MDS, alban and bang I hope you got all the info you needed from this wagon. Let the avatar thing go please. If Kling still thinks alban is scum cos of this pls lynch her. Also look at lane , he seems contend with voting for anyone and shifts between votes too much. Wish I could have helped you people more. All the best.

This isn't scum talking. This is town.

Scum!Spade would have lurked out or hammered himself. Spade couldn't possibly have expected a wagon switch.

Btw what exactly is the case against creature???...if we can justify Kling by saying that is how she plays, then we should be able to justify creature style of play as well. I think lynching creature is a mistake.

1) Creature is super hard to read.
2) He's different from the last game with him I remember.
3) Haven't seen anything town from him.
4) Bad vibes from "are you sure this is the scum?"
5) 716: "Not opposing wagons on players I think are lynchbait, but not confident are town." Literally his reasoning. If he's town, he should have seen this lynch coming.

P. Edit: NEVER MIND.

UNVOTE: Creature

[MiniDeathStar]

I think we can push a flashwagon right?

No idea who to vote at this point. I welcome suggestions.

[MiniDeathStar]

Soft townread on lane, despite the "omg wagon already day is endinggg". This is kind of mafiascum's culture. I actually think it's better to no-lynch than to make hasty wagons with poor reads on them because those almost always land on town and have literally zero benefits.

And I know I'm not lynching {alban, Spade, Creature} today.

[MiniDeathStar]

Tenshii was V/LA at the time. What about Gamma?

[MiniDeathStar]

Omg screw it, I totally suck at scumhunting this game.

[MiniDeathStar]

If I absolutely had to pick from these 3, then Tiger moth. She's my weakest read.

[MiniDeathStar]

Kop actually has a point. I had kind of ignored bangthemafia lately since I was townreading him from earlier. Just goes on to show I really am terrible at this.

[MiniDeathStar]

I was going to wait until bang said something but I don't have the luxury of time right now and I've completely lost confidence in my reads after Spade and Creature. So like, whatever. I hope you're right.

VOTE: bangthemafia

[MiniDeathStar]

UNVOTE: bangthemafia

[MiniDeathStar]

I'll actually be very happy if mafia kill me tonight. I'll appreciate not having to make hard decisions anymore.

[MiniDeathStar]

I'm not going to lynch someone who I think is town just because NL is so taboo on MafiaScum. I don't care what you think.

[MiniDeathStar]

Ugh, that came out way more blunt than I intended. I'm sorry. Just, please don't get mad at me for not voting the way you want me to.

[MiniDeathStar]

I literally couldn't care less if Gamma or Charloux die, so I'll hammer either of them.

Just, Spade's reaction to being wagoned and then at L-1 felt town to me. I know he's claimed VT but I don't think I'll get much information out of his lynch.

[MiniDeathStar]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald7å/vote]

[MiniDeathStar]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[MiniDeathStar]

Gamma (4/7) - MiniDeathStar, Kop, Charlie, Creature.

Correct?

[MiniDeathStar]

I haven't liked Gamma lately this game, and his caps lock one-liners suspiciously remind me of his scum style.

[MiniDeathStar]

That does sound like a decent plan. Esp after my mistake of softclaiming.

Cool. L-1. Someone just needs to hammer. MDS, alban and bang I hope you got all the info you needed from this wagon. Let the avatar thing go please. If Kling still thinks alban is scum cos of this pls lynch her. Also look at lane , he seems contend with voting for anyone and shifts between votes too much. Wish I could have helped you people more. All the best.

This isn't scum talking. This is town.

Scum!Spade would have lurked out or hammered himself. Spade couldn't possibly have expected a wagon switch.

[MiniDeathStar]

I prefer Gamma to the Klingon wagon but I can switch if necessary.

[MiniDeathStar]

Gamma Emerald is at

L-1

[MiniDeathStar]

Wait. Omg no, he isn't. Vote count is wrong, Creature is voting Ted. Sorry, that's L-2 for Gamma.

[MiniDeathStar]

Well someone is high on testosterone.

[MiniDeathStar]

Please no hammerlust.

Thank god Fire Assassin isn't in this game.

[MiniDeathStar]

Jin is just scummy by nature.

[MiniDeathStar]

I've played with him, yes.

[MiniDeathStar]

UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald

[MiniDeathStar]

Gamma, get your arse over here and start talking.

[MiniDeathStar]

Omg. I just found Fire Assassin's alt.

[MiniDeathStar]

Whatever, Gamma's reads sucked anyway. And I doubt he's a power role.

[MiniDeathStar]

Be my guest, haha.

[MiniDeathStar]

It was nice knowing you Creature. Sorry for wagoning you and wringing a claim out of you.
Unless you're a dastardly little maf-maf, that is.

@bangthemafia:

I don't think deadline flash wagons are super informative. Like, I sheeped Gamma only because of the whole "THOU SHALT NOT NOLYNCH OGIRJOGJDSI" that everyone is throwing around. I think only lane had a hard suspicion on him.

[MiniDeathStar]

I guess we have a serial killer and they capone'd alban while the mafia shot Space_Aids and Klingon who was hiding behind him. Interesting night.

My scum reads sucked as usual.

Hopefully today is a better day.

[MiniDeathStar]

I think we should take a close look at Spade.

He was a vanilla townie who was townreading the scum and we had claimed PR. I'm struggling to see a reason why Spade makes sense as a night kill with so many other juicy targets around, unless it was a strategic kill to protect more valuable scum that Spade was onto, or possibly something to do with Creature's claim?

P. Edit: Oh? I didn't know scum autokill hiders. I assumed Klingon was hiding behind Spade and she died when he got killed by the mafia.

[MiniDeathStar]

I just thought the only way for hider to die along with someone else was to hide behind the kill target. I didn't know they die automatically if they hide behind scum so I didn't consider it.

Either way, why would it matter? I can't possibly know who Klingon targeted if I was scum.

[MiniDeathStar]

Ohhh wait. I just realised vig could be in the setup, too. Forget what I said about serial killer then.

[MiniDeathStar]

Well in that case Spade may well have been shot by the vig or the SK so NKA is pretty much pointless. Sorry.

[MiniDeathStar]

Asking because you FoS Creature now, or to help mafia decide whether to shoot straight or bus drive?

[MiniDeathStar]

Don't they always have a bus driver in this setup?

[MiniDeathStar]

Oh, just double checked, there is a case where they don't have a bus driver but JOAT with strongman power so effectively the same thing.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=JK9%2B%2B

[MiniDeathStar]

Scum could have assumed Creature would get protection or is some kill-avoiding role. They could have thought Klingon or Spade was a better choice. Idk why. But Creature surviving one night doesn't make him mega scummy IMO.

Oh, just double checked, there is a case where they don't have a bus driver but JOAT with strongman power so effectively the same thing.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=JK9%2B%2B

There are 2 cases. Why would you think otherwise? Did you ever look to see what was possible for scum to have as power roles and setups?

I checked the setup like once before signing up, I haven't bothered to analyse it further until now. Why are we still talking about that?

[MiniDeathStar]

Well in that case Spade may well have been shot by the vig or the SK so NKA is pretty much pointless. Sorry.

Your info is old.

[MiniDeathStar]

Actually I've thought about it a little and I think the most likely scenario is that the mafia killed Klingon who failed to hide (to protect alban and possibly Fountain/Ted), orrrr they tried to kill someone else and doctor saved the day (and Klingon died somehow). Because like, Spade makes literally zero sense as a mafia kill. I think Spade/alban were killed by SK and/or vig(s). Doesn't really matter I think.

Anyway, I think we should forget about NKA at this point and focus on examining alban and see if we can squeeze some info out of him to use today. I don't have much time atm but I'll get to it soon as I can.

[MiniDeathStar]

We're still talking about it because you seem to know scum has a bus driver. And I don't believe you thought scum always had a bus driver.

You're reading too much into it.

Klingon almost certainly hid behind creature, the town read pr claim. Which means creature is scum

That's reachy. You can't know "almost certainly" who Klingon hid behind. I get it, you think Creature is scum, but let's not go into slippery slope territory where you make stuff up to confirm your read.

[MiniDeathStar]

Klingon almost certainly hid behind creature, the town read pr claim.

Why would he do that?

To not die

Ummm...

Town Hider

Welcome, [Player Name], you are a Town Hider.

Abilities:

Each night, you can choose to Hide behind a player in the game, which will protect you in the event you'd ordinarily be targeted for a nightkill.

If you Hide behind a player who is to be nightkilled, you'll die along with them.

If you Hide behind a Mafia member or a Serial Killer, you'll also die.

Win condition:

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

See underline. Klingon wouldn't hide behind a claimed PR.

[MiniDeathStar]

I'm not going to answer any more questions regarding setup speculation. Stop beating a dead horse.

[MiniDeathStar]

Oh my god lane, why would Klingon hide behind someone who could be targeted for a nightkill? It makes literally no sense. I already said I don't know why scum let Creature live, but it's stupid to assume Klingon would hide behind someone likely to die.

[MiniDeathStar]

@mini, you don't question creatures claim at all?

I do actually. But I think him surviving one night isn't totally implausible. If he keeps on kicking, that's a whole different story.

[MiniDeathStar]

In a previous game, I softclaimed PR and survived the following night, because the scum thought I was NK immune serial killer. I was actually the doctor. I hardclaimed the next day and got eaten. It can happen. This is kind of why I'm willing to give Creature the benefit of the doubt for today in particular.

[MiniDeathStar]

Because, Tiger moth, Spade_Ace was trusting alban with his firstborn. He was his top town read, along with bangthemafia and me.

[MiniDeathStar]

I don't think Tiger moth is scum btw.

[MiniDeathStar]

Just finished reading the combined ISO of Jin and alban. They barely interacted with each other. The only two interactions were alban telling Jin and Ted to calm down in 783 and this:

It's a pain to see people getting replaced so close to the deadline. I am with Secret and Charl on this.

About the read on Secret, I will cover it in my third (and hopefully final) installment. My impression is that Secret is nowhere close to Spade or Creature, but I need to re-read. Also, his cross-post and the message to mod seemed all genuine and townie.

Make of that what you will.

[MiniDeathStar]

Tiger moth actually makes a very good point about Klingon. Wrt Spade, I don't know. I don't think I've heard of mafia killing people who townread them, is that like a strategy on this site?

[MiniDeathStar]

Here's the combined ISO of Ted's slot and alban. I've not read it yet because I'm busy, but putting the link here so people can use it.

This is Charloux and alban.

[MiniDeathStar]

Scum Meter
Tiger moth
Creature
lane0168
TwiszTed
Secret Agent Jin
bangthemafia
Kop
Charloux

town

|

~town

|

null

|

~scum

|

scum

[MiniDeathStar]

What happened to your scumread on Charlie from yesterday, lane?

[MiniDeathStar]

Basically pretty much half the village was scummy/weird af yesterday and we had no idea who to lynch, finally we choose Spade who slipped as VT. But then Spade got super towny at L-1 and we switched to Creature, Creature claimed PR (unspecified), and then everyone wanted to push their own FoS for a flash lynch with less than 15h left. Gamma was the compromise since he was pretty much a null read with few reads. He flipped VT. Since then, all we've been talking about is the kills last night + lane pushing Creature to hardclaim.

Btw I was a fairly universal townread yesterday so I've no idea why I'm still breathing. I must have townread the scum.

[MiniDeathStar]

VOTE: Charloux

Will explain in a bit.

[MiniDeathStar]

107 - alban invokes meta defence for Charloux, tries some weak push on me
109, 113 - alban continues, but it gets interesting; he says "I wish you've stuck with your questioning", but *he* doesn't question me directly. Why does he trust Charlie to do it? This is the first hint of a possible connection between them.
118 - taking note of Fountain's reads dispenser (NAI), but ignoring that Charloux also gave arbitrary townreads in 48, 2 pages earlier.
126 - alban goes full circle; what used to be suspicious of me now makes both me and Charloux townreads. Keep in mind I hadn't talked to Charlie after his 48. That's a contradiction I wish I hadn't ignored yesterday.
141 - Charlie calls Gamma's read on him

Fake

[sic] for a super arbitrary reason. But notice who Gamma is voting? Alban. That's OMGUS by proxy.
146 - Yup, that was definitely OMGUS by proxy.
155 - Charlie jokingly calls alban creepy. I don't think this is a tell, but it's interesting to note anyway.
243 - Charlie looks concerned about alban.
268 - Charlie makes an excuse for his lackluster scumhunting.
288 - Klingon is a hard scumread for drilling on alban. Definitely not OMGUS.
331 - This post was discussed to death, but I'm going to draw attention to it because I think it's a possible slip.
372 - alban invokes more meta defence for Charlie but doesn't townread him.
499 - The lol defence lane mentioned.
509 - "True, but you could at least think a bit before you start a future tunnel". Why is Charlie worried about a

future tunnel

?
646 - "I have no idea what the F*** is going on anymore <3" should drop your scum meter by a full level every time.
730 - Notice that Charlie is the only null read alban ever cared to comment on.
738, 739 - alban surreptitiously leaves Charlie out of his "prods", even though he's way more of a lurker/fluffer than lane.
877 - Charlie doesn't even want to consider alban as scum.
969, 977 - Speak for themselves.

Rest was pretty much fluff. I kind of want to count what % of Charlie's posts were fluff but I cbb right now. Spoiler: a lot.

I rest my case. Lynch mob, do your thing.

[MiniDeathStar]

MDS, I dont understand this. On the contrary, discussing and analyzing night actions many times gives lot of clues IMO.

Tiger moth already Klingon's death brilliantly. But now all I can do is guess whether Spade was shot by the mafia or vig/SK (and maf kill was on Klingon/failed). Because there are too many unknown variables, the analysis becomes super unreliable and I'd rather base my reads on something I can actually prove. See my post above.

[MiniDeathStar]

Bang, please read the whole thing before commenting. A lot of your stuff has already been answered.

[MiniDeathStar]

Scum Meter
Tiger moth
Creature
lane0168
TwiszTed
Secret Agent Jin
bangthemafia
Kop
Charloux

town

|

~town

|

null

|

~scum

|

scum

[MiniDeathStar]

Not that I'm townreading Jin but I think being a noosebait is kind of his thing. That's what I remember from our time together.

I'm townreading Creature atm because both the confirmed scum and my strongest scumread right now wanted him dead yesterday.

[MiniDeathStar]

Charlie, if you're town you should at least make the effort. Otherwise you'll be misleading everybody.

[MiniDeathStar]

Ouch well done MDS, i can't defend against half of those points. I hope i'll be here during twilight.

Don't worry i can 2 scumreads with me to the grave with just one lynch.

I see what you did there.
UNVOTE: Charloux

[MiniDeathStar]

God damn do my reads suck this game.

[MiniDeathStar]

Scum Meter
Tiger moth
Charloux
lane0168
Creature
TwiszTed
Secret Agent Jin
bangthemafia
Kop

town

|

~town

|

null

|

~scum

|

scum

[MiniDeathStar]

Okay, so with Charloux's vengeful claim he's conftown and now I definitely know there's 3 mafia (now 2 left) in the game, and another killing role (either vig or SK). FMPOV, POE says we have a very good chance of getting scum if we lynch in the greys right now, so that's nice. Hopefully we'll nail the mafia JOAT but I'm not counting on it.

@Charloux

vengeful is a super bad claim for scum. So yeah, I'm putting you in the townreads. I'm trusting the claim over my educated guess based on yours and alban's interactions with each other.

[MiniDeathStar]

You put me in the top townreads just because i claimed?

UNVOTE: Creature
If Bang is mafia, what prevents him from claiming a PR? Or anybody else for that matter?

Earlier i asked this, how about you answer now?

Nothing. It's just not the best course of action because the setup is dependent on the number of PRs in the game, so sooner or later they may be counterclaimed by the real PRs or exposed when they die. Plus, a PR surviving for a long time arouses suspicion. Not to mention trackers. VTs are a much bigger and more reliable pool for scum to hide in.

[MiniDeathStar]

Okay, I thought it over lunch and now I think

the vig who killed alban should claim

. Why?

- It'll help us understand the game better and estimate how many mislynches we have left.
- It'll narrow down the pool of VTs for scum to blend in.
- It'll distract the scum for a night to possibly allow an investigative PR to do their thing.
- It'll prevent investigative PRs from scanning you by accident.
- We'll assume you aren't SK because if you are, we can lynch you if we kill all mafia but game isn't over.
- Additional assurance against an SK because we will know your targets.
- If you don't claim, we'll know for sure there's an SK.

[MiniDeathStar]

FTR I think SK is far more likely probability-wise so that's another reason I want a vig claim right now.

[MiniDeathStar]

Nice town we have here.

[MiniDeathStar]

Charloux claimed town vengeful. They shoot somebody when lynched. So Charl + his kill = 2 scumreads to the grave with one lynch.

[MiniDeathStar]

Poor lane.

I think it'll all become clearer when/if vig claims. Otherwise we'll just have to observe deaths and maybe push for mass claim some day later.

[MiniDeathStar]

Oh and I'm definitely believing Charlie for now because claiming vengeful as scum is autolose in mylo/3-way.

[MiniDeathStar]

1. I found your analysis of Alban-Charl quite interesting. It did look a scum team interaction as the first thought.

I know, which means we're lucky he's a PR that can clear itself.

2. How does Charl's vengeful claim tell us there are 3 mafia and one Vig/SK. Please explain.

Charlie, Creature and Klingon make 3 PRs, alban's death means there's another killing role, which means 3 scum + possible SK in the JK9++ matrix.

3. I thought you were averse to setup speculation.

Yes, it was pretty pointless at the beginning of D2, so I abandoned it and started actual scumhunting. But now with Charlie's claim, it's no longer baseless speculation, so I think it could be useful.

4. I am not sure of this, will have to find out but I think on Day 1, when in relation to my doubts on Spade's VT claim I said exactly these reasons why mafia will like to claim VT, you gave reasons why scum will likely claim PR. Isnt this a fast change of general opinions?

No, I gave an argument why claiming PR is bad for scum in the long run. Please read carefully what I wrote.

5. I am not able to find your exact post, but on Day 2, some pages back you said even you are wondering why you are alive. Call me fixated on Kling, but I feel very strongly that he died because he hid behind scum/SK. Now consider this-

For almost all of us you were the strongest townread on D1. Kling had atleast some nagging doubt in the end about Alban, but not about you. If I were in Kling's place, I would sure have chosen you to hide. So why you cant be scum?

Read Tiger moth's explanation. It's pretty clear Klingon hid behind alban so she could clear or incriminate him. Klingon also scumread me all Day 1 and I was somewhere along on her list, too.
Btw if I was a hider and wanted to survive, I would hide behind a low-key player who is unlikely to be scum or die at night. Not to be blunt, but I'm pretty much the furthest away from low key. I think I've generated the most content in this game.

Okay, I thought it over lunch and now I think

the vig who killed alban should claim

. Why?

- It'll help us understand the game better and estimate how many mislynches we have left.

I dont agree.

How does it help? We can and should consider the worst case scenario of 3 scum + 1 SK and calculate the mislynch. Any less scum or absent SK is a bonus. Our worst case right now is 2 scum + 1 SK + 6 town. So MyLo will happen only on Day 3. For that why expose another PR now.

I'll be honest. I don't think the vig is an asset anymore. They killed scum and did their job (well done btw!). If they shoot wrong now, tomorrow may well be mylo and a vig claim will be far less likely to be believed. Or it could even be 3 villagers vs 3 scum (2 maf + SK), in which case town's odds drop quite significantly. I think town benefits a lot more from a pseudo-clear today that can act as a meatshield tonight.

Why are you in such a hurry suddenly after Charl claimed vengeful?

I'm not in a hurry, I just got excited because I started figuring things out. Sorry if I made you uncomfortable with that.

2. May not work as you and many thought scum will claim PR

Bad strategy in the long run. Already explained why.

4. Maynot work if trackers suspect them

Why would a tracker track a claimed vig? That's pointless. You know they are going to visit a corpse. Would you rather the tracker track an unclaimed vig to a corpse and claim tomorrow with guilty on them? I think that's pretty much the worst that could happen.