Mini Normal 1460 - Normalville Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Grimgroove]

VOTE: Elyse

I don't like the wink, I don't like the pink and I don't like the stink. Scum.

[Grimgroove]

Innocent Child. It makes things less complicated.

[Grimgroove]

[
asking stupid questions:

My questions have a point to them being that favourite alignment and to a lesser extent role can give insight into how engaged with the game you should expect that person to be if they are town (and if they are scum).

WIFOM much?

[Grimgroove]

Baezu is town. Only town is so eager to put out scumreads this early in the game, half expecting/hoping they would be right in order to boast with them at the end of the game.
However, Baezu is wrong and will not be boasting for at least 50% of her early reads.

I'll have an early guess as well: Slandaar and Future in a scumteam.

We shall see in the

VOTE: Future

[Grimgroove]

Grimgroove, you saying BP is town?

What? No. What gave you that idea?

[Grimgroove]

I didn't mean the game, I meant the site.

Did you notice his join date under the avatar?

This join date leads me to believe he knows what he's doing through defending this No D1-lynch business. I haven't been in many games myself so far on this site, but in each and every one of them the general agreement was the thing that Baezu was explaining, and everyone disagreeing came under heavy scrutiny. I'll have to do a meta on BP but something tells me he knew he'd be getting reactions t§o this no-lynch-vote along the lines of the reactions he's getting now.

The way Baezu jumps on this "easy" bait I find scummier than publicly daring to take a stance you'll know very few people will agree with.

[Grimgroove]

My questions have a point to them being that favourite alignment and to a lesser extent role can give insight into how engaged with the game you should expect that person to be if they are town (and if they are scum).

WIFOM much?[/quote]

The WIFOM is here in that the question can be answered strategically. Scum planning to be active could say they prefer to be some town-aligned role, thus creating the natural association in your head that their high activity means they're town. Scum planning to be inactive or knowing that they generally are could do the opposite.

Or people could just be honest, like me. But even then there's not much to be learned from it.

I find the added value of your RQS only limited compared to some simple RVS'ing, but I don't find it scummy either. I don't understand the mini-wagon behind your name. I'd prefer more votes on Future.

[Grimgroove]

Screwed up the quotes there. The quote assigned to be was actually a quote from Slandaar.

[Grimgroove]

How does having an even number of players make us lose a lynch-opportunity? I don't get it.

[Grimgroove]

I personally think daytime activity (votes, posts, hammers, ...) are much easier to analyse than night kill-decisions.

[Grimgroove]

I personally think daytime activity (votes, posts, hammers, ...) are much easier to analyse than night kill-decisions.

I disagree wholeheartedly. During the night, the mafia have to act together. They choose as a team which player's interactions get analyzed.

If someone is fingering the entire mafia team, they may leave them alive over the player that has fingered all civs to try and get mislynches. They may do the opposite for supreme WIFOM.

During the day, mafia can deliberately not interact or choose to interact in certain ways to deceive. If a mafia gets pegged, then they can dig to keep suspicion away from any teammates. A night kill has no deception; that player is killed. No matter what, that player is getting analyzed the next day, and the lynch that follows generally reveals why mafia made that night hit.

UNVOTE: Elyse
VOTE: Grimgroove

My vote for Elyse was because I didn't realize the RVS had ended.

Seeing how you already proved my point in your own exposé, I don't need to delve into it much further. The thing in bold is exactly what I was referring to.
After a NK, all we know is what the role was of the person who died. This gives us one piece of information: what that person has been saying in the topic was genuine.
Barring a power role (in the case of a N1 kill we can, because the killed player wouldn't have had the chance to use their power, essesntially making him a VT during this initial phase just as much as the rest of us), this doesn't give us any information at all about the factual validity of what he's been saying, only that it was with good intentions.
All the other conclusions you'd make based on NK's would indeed, as you yourself so eloquently put it, be WIFOM.

Also, please explain how this disagreement warrants such a bad, bad vote.

[Grimgroove]

@ grim - so first you're convinced I'm town and you want to prove me wrong:

Baezu is town. Only town is so eager to put out scumreads this early in the game, half expecting/hoping they would be right in order to boast with them at the end of the game.
However, Baezu is wrong and will not be boasting for at least 50% of her early reads.

Then you think I'm scum for jumping on easy bait:

The way Baezu jumps on this "easy" bait I find scummier than publicly daring to take a stance you'll know very few people will agree with.

1. A person is allowed to change their mind, especially when it comes to reads that occured on page 2.
2. To set the record straight: at this point I still think you're town, despite your overzealous jumping on bait. A scummy action doesn't make the scum.

Also, you've been defending BP

Did you notice his join date under the avatar?

This join date leads me to believe he knows what he's doing through defending this No D1-lynch business. I haven't been in many games myself so far on this site, but in each and every one of them the general agreement was the thing that Baezu was explaining, and everyone disagreeing came under heavy scrutiny. I'll have to do a meta on BP but something tells me he knew he'd be getting reactions t§o this no-lynch-vote along the lines of the reactions he's getting now.

I'm even more sure of my initial assessment: BP/GRIMGROOVE = scum team!!!

I wasn't defending him, I was giving my view on the matter. A view that even according to BP was wrong, but I still stand by what I said: scum prefers to say what town likes to hear, and BP knows full well that No D1 lynch was Always, is Always and will Always be a topic of contention.

[Grimgroove]

BP I am no afraid and I'm not going to get lynched. Sorry that my confidence intimidates you but a lot of my logic is not superficial - it comes from what the rules say are classic scum tells. I know they are not ALWAYS scum tells but the more your play progresses "by the book", the more probabilistic that you are scum. Nothing personal.

Ever heared of the tunnel?

[Grimgroove]

I just noticed something went wrong in my post 87, this is a mere repetition of it with fixed tags, in order to avoid confusion.

@ grim - so first you're convinced I'm town and you want to prove me wrong:

Baezu is town. Only town is so eager to put out scumreads this early in the game, half expecting/hoping they would be right in order to boast with them at the end of the game.
However, Baezu is wrong and will not be boasting for at least 50% of her early reads.

Then you think I'm scum for jumping on easy bait:

The way Baezu jumps on this "easy" bait I find scummier than publicly daring to take a stance you'll know very few people will agree with.

1. A person is allowed to change their mind, especially when it comes to reads that occured on page 2.
2. To set the record straight: at this point I still think you're town, despite your overzealous jumping on bait. A scummy action doesn't make the scum.

Also, you've been defending BP

Did you notice his join date under the avatar?

This join date leads me to believe he knows what he's doing through defending this No D1-lynch business. I haven't been in many games myself so far on this site, but in each and every one of them the general agreement was the thing that Baezu was explaining, and everyone disagreeing came under heavy scrutiny. I'll have to do a meta on BP but something tells me he knew he'd be getting reactions t§o this no-lynch-vote along the lines of the reactions he's getting now.

I'm even more sure of my initial assessment: BP/GRIMGROOVE = scum team!!!

[/quote]

I wasn't defending him, I was giving my view on the matter. A view that even according to BP was wrong, but I still stand by what I said: scum prefers to say what town likes to hear, and BP knows full well that No D1 lynch was Always, is Always and will Always be a topic of contention.[/quote]

[Grimgroove]

Oh my god I suck But apart from the two superfluous quoting tags it's actually perfectly fine.
Next in this spamline: my concrete case on Future.

[Grimgroove]

I think I found us some scum!

I present to you, our Future, and I'll try to provide some context with these quotes as well, backing up my case that Future is scum, and if we want our future scumless, we need to get rid of Future first and foremost.

VOTE: Red Dragon

Man everyone's name sounds evil

Already his RVS rubbed me the wrong way. He sounds like Mr. Goodie, in awe of all the evil around him. A fluffy bunny in a forest full of wolves. Who would want to portray such an image? Scum tactics right from the very start.
Besides, my name does not sound evil, it's groovy.

BP's "I don't reply to stupid questions" seems unnecessarily confrontational.

Peregrine, how serious are you about your Slandaar vote?

There is no such thing as "unnecessarily confrontational" in mafiagames. Confrontation is good. It's a big bang that gets discussions started. It's discussions that allows us to make opinions. It's opinions that allow us to vote. It's votes that allow us to lynch. But it all starts with the bang, the confrontation.
Again, he's trying to sound like Mr. Goodie, the voice of "why can't we all just get along?". I'll tell you why: because there's scum in our midst, and I think Mr. Pacifist is one of them.

Well shit, I misinterpreted that. I thought BP was calling Slandaar's questions stupid, which seemed unnecessarily confrontational. Take that back.

That being said, BP is acting very, very strangely. I'm with Baezu; there's something gut-ly off about his posts so far.

UNVOTE: Dragon
VOTE: BP

"Strangely"? "Something gut-ly off"? Oh my, watch your words there! Don't want to rock anyone's boat. Sounds to me like some half-assed scumhunt with no facts and no conviction. And it's already clear from the few posts above you want to do one thing: avoid confrontation. What have you got to hide that makes you want to do that?

Oh, I thought we were on RVS. Sorry.

VOTE: NO LYNCH

Especially this - why suddenly vote NL? How much experience do you have on this site?

A question that can be easily checked by clicking to the profile of BP. A non-question, as it were, and fake hunting and investigating. Also mark that here, he finds the No Lynch vote the most notably strange thing that he was referring to in his post 32, and thus probably the main reason for the vote.

Grimgroove, you saying BP is town?

I never said this, and wasked him where he got that idea from. He never replied, avoiding confrontation. This is not the first time he does this. In posts 34, 47 and post 51 I called him out, called him scum, told other people to vote him, and what did he do? Nothing, nada, zilch. No response to those comments at all.

I didn't mean the game, I meant the site.

Lies, you can easily check the join date right under his avatar, you couldn't mean the site in your question unless you were asking for the obvious. Why would you ask for the obvious?

I think bp is scum because I find it very, very hard to believe that a town player, when shown with mathematical facts, would ever decided to play sub optimally. Deciding not to lynch d1 is certainly something that scum would want to do. A town player would not want to take away a lynch opportunity, and thus it can be concluded that BP is not playing with the town in mind. I do not know if BP is scum, but I know for a fact he is NOT town. Actually his play would make a lot of sense from an sk perspective...

I'm torn. While I mentioned that gut off-ness about BP's posts, I completely disagree with Red Dragon and Baezu here. I really, really don't think BP's wanting to NL is indicative of his alignment either way; I haven't gone through his other games (if he has any) but his convictions here make it seem like an idea he stands by as town and one he would present as part of a town meta if he was scum. I don't think being difficult regarding mathematical logic is a scumtell. In fact, I'd expect scum to be even more flip-floppy than town in this case; scum loves to appease the town.

Another thing scum love to do is go after easy lynches, especially with new(ish) players like BP who do something like he's doing right now. Like Grimgroove said, Baezu/Red Dragon here are scummier than BP are. Baezu more than Dragon at this point for Post 45. "We need to lynch this now" is scummy as hell.

UNVOTE: BP
VOTE: Baezu

P.S. Dragon, no need to be mean, bro.

I don't like the "like Grimgroove said", which feels like buddying to tyhe player who has been attacking him throughout this game.
I also don't like how suddenly the gut-feeling becomes the main reason why he thought BP was scummy, as opposed to the No Lynch vote, like explained in his post 33. It's inconsistent. First the NL-vote was "especially strange", now it's suddenly "especially townish". This does not add up at all.

Thoughts?

[Grimgroove]

Also the gooner has been slightly inconsistent, and given he only posted three times, this is quite a feat.

I personally think daytime activity (votes, posts, hammers, ...) are much easier to analyse than night kill-decisions.

I disagree wholeheartedly. During the night, the mafia have to act together. They choose as a team which player's interactions get analyzed. If someone is fingering the entire mafia team, they may leave them alive over the player that has fingered all civs to try and get mislynches. They may do the opposite for supreme WIFOM. During the day, mafia can deliberately not interact or choose to interact in certain ways to deceive. If a mafia gets pegged, then they can dig to keep suspicion away from any teammates. A night kill has no deception; that player is killed. No matter what, that player is getting analyzed the next day, and the lynch that follows generally reveals why mafia made that night hit.

UNVOTE: Elyse
VOTE: Grimgroove

My vote for Elyse was because I didn't realize the RVS had ended.

First of all: you still didn't explain your vote on me.
Second: You did not respond to my remarks on your logic.
Third: My argument was one against the idea of having a no lynch on day 1. Lynch-wagons and out-in-the-open arguments are easier to analyse than night kills, where arguments and decision patterns are not out in the open and there's more guesswork and more WIFIM poissibilities. I never said looking into Night Kills is completely useless either, something you seem to imply here. This was also my initial point, the one you wholeheartedly disagreed with. Yet when I see the closing sentence in your next quote:

In a 100% ideal world I would agree with this. If, theoretically, the mafia played perfectly this would be 100% true. Unfortunately that is not the case. However, you are assuming that scum never make mistakes and that scum won't counter claim or try to deceive us with fake night actions. You underestimate the wifom that the scum can put on us with their night actions... pleased don't tell me you are an em tard too.

Nope, not from EM. But counterclaims yield a mafia member nearly 100% of the time. If we are claiming in a lylo situation, then the game is pretty much a 50-50 RNG at that point. As for fake night actions, unless I'm mistaken, mafia make kills each night. If that's not the case and they can no kill, then my previous statement starts to lose water. I fully understand that mafia WIFOMs plenty, but at the end of the day (or in this case, night), someone is killed, and the town gets to analyze. If it was a WIFOM and the night kill was a decoy, then the next lynch/night kill should reveal that.

And if scum make mistakes, then it doesn't matter if we lynch or not. If a scum becomes obvious, then of course we lynch them.

I'm saying that a no lynch on the first day is not a pro-town proposition.

we seem to be on the same, or at least similar, page after all when it comes to the grounds of the discussion. So, what is it going to be, gooner?

[Grimgroove]

Why would you be game with a discussion you call unproductive yourself?

Why have there been no comments on my case on Future?

Is this thing on?

[Grimgroove]

We shall see, I'm curious as to how Future will deny it, and when he fails to do so convincingly, I'm also curious as to how you would deny it (considering you call them deniable).
But yes, you're right, let's listen to Future first.

[Grimgroove]

I'm assuming I am "Grizzle"?

Future is scum. He avoids confrontation, does not take strong stances, ignores votes on him, ignores taunts, does not thread on any toes, does not produce arguments, does not scumhunt and buddies his attacker.

[Grimgroove]

Much too slow, what the hell is going on here?

[Grimgroove]

What do you mean by the "looking for a direction"-read?

[Grimgroove]

Players are reminded that all site rules apply here, particularly the following:

Do not talk outside the game thread about an ongoing game except where explicitly allowed to do so by your role/moderator. Likewise, do not use bbcode to hide secret messages - this equates to discussion outside the thread.

Any future discussion of ongoing games will result in forced replacement or modkilling at the moderator's discretion.

What?

[Grimgroove]

Is this all you have to say?

[Grimgroove]

Suffice to say I am not convinced.

[Grimgroove]

To clarify, I am willin to vote Beazu or hammer him if we can get that far. Not agreeing with him and his oddness.

What are your thoughts on Future?

[Grimgroove]

My theory on this game is that nobody is mafia and you're all trolling me.

Because you have no scumreads?

[Grimgroove]

You guys need to listen to Slandaar. I am TOWN.

I swear to you.

The reason that I want to lynch BP is because he just seems to me to REEK of scum so why not continue to try to push for someone that I feel is scum? That is also the reason I was not willing to move my vote. But, since people obviously cannot be convinced by my words I will just have to wait for the mafia to NK me n1 to show you my role PM. Maybe there is a doctor out there who is willing to protect me because as I said before, I am TOWN. Also, when I get killed will you please vote for BP. That is my dying wish. For now, I will vote with those who are more experienced and take their word that future is indeed scum. Hopefully you guys are right.

VOTE: Future

Didn't like you until here, but this post is townie as it gets, not because of the defense but because of the tone and concern for life.

Funny how interpretations of this post are diametrical with for instance thegooner.
I find it townie. I'm not sure in how far swearing is actually allowed, and some people take it more seriously than others, but the thing in bold has got me convinced.

To clarify, I am willin to vote Beazu or hammer him if we can get that far. Not agreeing with him and his oddness.

What are your thoughts on Future?

My thoughts are that mafia don't needlessly expose themselves like below without a reason, but since I can't see a reason for doing this other than sincerity it appears town to me and blown out of proportion by the further posts.

He didn't expose himself. I forced him to expose himself. Instead of a defense we get this:

FUCK I REFERRED TO AN ONGOING GAME BUT THE GIST OF IT WAS THAT I'M FUCKING TOWN BECAUSE I'VE BEEN CALLED SCUMMY FOR BEING TOO MUCH OF AN ASSHOLE AND I DECIDED TO NOT BE AN ASSHOLE HERE

See, what could be the point?

All caps is just form. Null all the way. But what about the content? Well, the content is this: he implies the post that got edited was a very strong defense, and now that it got deleted, he doesn't seem to want to bother to actually defend himself in some other, mod-acceptable way. He just refers to meta, and about he's not wanting to be an asshole. How does him not wanting to be an asshole address any of the points that were put forward against him? How is writing in all caps and bitching not being an asshole?

Darthe

. Post something usable, otherwise I'm just gonna assume you're lurking and lynch you because if you're not scum in hiding you're just not being helpful.

Future

. If you don't reply soon I'm gonna start asking people to lynch your ass, cuz my vote's already there.

This guy pings. Setting up lynches, rhetoric and pointed conjecture "assume you're lurking, gonna ask people to lynch" etc. Why wouldn't he already be pushing if his vote was there instead of using it with a passive attitude? It can only be to avoid being linked to heavily to a lynch.

In your eyes, what has Future contributed that goes beyond lurking? What do you think of his scumhunting?
What do you mean by "using it with a passive attitude"?
I don't find this a strong ping-point at all.

@BP
NL IS ANTI-TOWN.
Mislynch sounds like negative and we should prevent it, but it actually happens and is necessary/all part of the game. Lynching = chance of killing scum. NL = No chance of killing scum. (without factoring PRs, but im sure you get the basic idea)
Which comes to the point of... Knowing who is "conf scum" before you lynch? That's exactly what a scum would say, there's no way we will know a person's alignment before a flip (yeah cops and shit, but that's not the point here)
Day flips are as important as night flips. The conversations and bandwagons and shifts are what makes the dynamics of a lynch informative. If we decide on an NL scums can do whatever they want now and confuse town even more, there's no real incentive in trying to take any action or push any wagon.

Town makes mistakes and have mislynches. Its all part of the game. Towns are confident of lynches and scum hunting. Scums will NEVER be confident of a lynch, simply because mislynching makes them look scummy. Which is pretty much the exact "theory" you are talking about. Unless its a MYLO vs LYLO situation or something, in general NL is basically taking away town's main power.

Even if we get a night flip everything else turns into WIFOM D2.

I'm not gonna try and defend myself anymore. Everything's been said, I reckon, the logic to my no-lynch theory has been explained too often. I just wanna say that a no-lynch won't obviously occur, so don't be surprised if further ahead I vote for a lynch. I just think that at the time, we didn't have enough juice to get it started. And we do now.

Also, what?
If you're town why wouldn't you want to tell us more about what is going on in your mind? Why not share with us why an NL would benefit us? Why suggest and "defend" yourself about the benefits of an NL, then give up halfway and tell us you will vote for a lynch? How would you explain that your action's aren't scum motivated? What makes you think that you can get information now to be confident enough to lynch "scum"? What happened to looking at N1 kill and starting your scum hunting from there? What changed from #30 to #112?

Also, could you name your top 2 town and scum for us?

@PeregrineV's 109
How does BP looks town to you?

SCUM FOUND.

Vote:BP

This was a great post and you sir have earned a town read.

This was a repetition of the game theory discussion that took place before, I don't see many new elements but I'm glad Ztife decided to get active.. I've only arrived on this website recently and I've already seen plenty of people defending a NL on Day 1 without being scum. And always, they are considered scummy. There's obviously a consensus on these forums that D1 No-lynches are bad, but that doesn't mean everyone has to agree with it, and that doesn't mean there are no arguments on the other side of the spectrum that make sense.
I find any conclusion based on views on game theory uncalled for, because game theory goes beyond just one game, and thus also beyond a single role PM.
Also, there's an insinuation there I don't like in the question to BP about who his main scumreads are. If you read his posts it's obvious who his main scumreads are.

@Elyse I just feel like scum will want to nk me because I've been causing a lot of ripples in the water and making accusations.

If you are wrong they will keep you around. Controversy can be a good distraction.

catching up in progress.

Are you in every normal?

5. Quite frankly, everything. My NL vote got loads of reactions and kinda got the game going, I think. Plus, Grimgroove's post on Future is quite the case, and Darthe's lurking is also something that worries me. But if you think that between page 2 and 7 nothing deserved of a change has happened, well then... give the thread another read.

This sounds exactly like the sort of thing scum would say. "I was wrong and was trying to pull a fast one early, but it got reactions guys!!!! Also, please don't lynch me."

@Red Dragon

"Pulling a fast one"? Explain.

[Grimgroove]

CCB, that wasn't the point. Don't misrep a deleted post.

I'm not. Don't overrep one. ^_^

As I understand it chernobylcitybus saw the original post, and he was obviously not impressed by it either, despite all the fuss Future is making about it.

[Grimgroove]

First of all, I don't like how you are implying that I'm being ambiguous in my reads/opinions or that I made it look as if discussions haven't made sense so far. I get the feeling you didn't actually bother reading my posts, and I will show you be replying to all of your questions by simply pointing you to posts I've already made.

About the other games, I can't discuss ongoing games, and since there's only been 1 game that ended at this point I'll point you to that one:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7&start=25

In this case numberfour defended a no lynch on Day 1 and was town.

I just go to this site and already enccountered this No lynch discussion in pretty much every game I was in. You've been here since 2009. Are you telling me you've never encountered town defending a No Lynch on day 1? I have difficulties believing that.

[Grimgroove]

Are you angry for stating you were simply rehashing what has already been said? Because apart from the scum-association you made with someone defending a No-Lynch on Day 1, there have been no new elements in your theoretical exposé.

Now to answering your waterfall of questions. So I won't be able to answer everything with post-referrals, but I'm glad to say I managed to do so for the questions where some form of bad judgement was brooding just beneath their surface.

This was a repetition of the game theory discussion that took place before, I don't see many new elements but I'm glad Ztife decided to get active.. I've only arrived on this website recently and I've already seen plenty of people defending a NL on Day 1 without being scum. And always, they are considered scummy. There's obviously a consensus on these forums that D1 No-lynches are bad, but that doesn't mean everyone has to agree with it, and that doesn't mean there are no arguments on the other side of the spectrum that make sense.
I find any conclusion based on views on game theory uncalled for, because game theory goes beyond just one game, and thus also beyond a single role PM.
Also, there's an insinuation there I don't like in the question to BP about who his main scumreads are. If you read his posts it's obvious who his main scumreads are.

You have seen games where town defend/suggest NLs? Could you quote me at least 2 games so I could take a look?

See previous post. (post 171)

Instead of telling us that there are always 2 sides to a coin, why not tell us which side you are on? Or which "side of the spectrum makes sense" to you?

I did. In posts 59 and 62 and 92.

If I were to find an opportunity to lynch you instead, say using a random number generator, would you agree to it?

No, where did I give the impression that I would?

Would you think that its more likely scums would suggest such things rather than town?

You're talking about the no-lynch I assume? I answered this question for you in post 48 and again at the end of post 89.
Or were you talking about random lynching? In this case I don't see any relevance into answering, because I've never defended random lynching, and nobody in this topic did.

Because when actual "scum hunting" goes wrong, scums might look guilty. But when you suggest something obscure (and quite frankly absurd) it helps shake off that guilt to "bad luck".

Again: when talking about No Lynching: it's not obscure. It's a stance that has certain arguments going for it that are convincing enough for some people, and not for others. It is not alignment indicative.
Random lynching is different because there are no arguments at all that are in favor for it that make any sense. You might as well just go play the lottery.

D1 lynches might not exactly be ground breaking, but as per discussion it is more beneficial for town to lynch. Therefore its more beneficial for scum to suggest NL.

Same theory rehash. Zzzzz. I agree with your theory on NL, I disagree with the last sentence, but by now I expect you've read my posts so I guess this will be clear to you (post 48 and end of 89). I'd also like to refer to my post you quotes yourself in this matter: "I find any conclusion based on views on game theory uncalled for, because game theory goes beyond just one game, and thus also beyond a single role PM." - Grimgroove

Another key idea why BP is scummy is because of his inconsistency in his idea.

He basically "changed sides" because the side he was on makes him look bad, which is what scums fear.

Because he joins in voting and pressuring it doesn't mean he'll want to see a flip at the end of this day no matter what happens. What the discussion has told me about BP: if a person is at L-1 of whom BP doesn't think he's scum, BP won't vote him just to see a flip at the end of the day, and will prefer a NL. I don't agree with this stance, but I don't think it's scummy and I don't see where BP changed sides in this matter.

So building on your statement, what of the discussion makes sense to you thus far?

All the scumhunting that went beyond game theory and this NL-business.

Which do you agree and not agree with?

Urgh, this is obvious if you read all my previous posts. Don't see how I could reply to such a vague question in any other way.

Surely there has to be a couple of points you have opinions on without drawing "conclusion on game theory".

Yes. Well, considering you like talking about game theory so much: don't you think it's important to read what people posted in a game of Mafia? I thought this was pretty basic, but obviously you disagree.

Would you not agree if I say that you

might

have a different view on game theory if you have a anti-town role compared to when you have an town role?

That question was answered in the very post you were replying to. Again, I refer to my quote: "I find any conclusion based on views on game theory uncalled for, because game theory goes beyond just one game, and thus also beyond a single role PM." -Grimgroove

And the main point is, what exactly is your view on BP? Or does everything seems null to you? And I missed his post on the reads, what do you not like about it? I would prefer a little less ambiguity if you could.

BP leans town to me (48 and 89 makes this pretty clear, and afterwards he's been one of the better scumhunters.
The second question :where did I say anything about everything seeming null to me? Not everything is null to me. I'm already quite convinced Future is scum, the way I asked questions to darthe should tell you something about how I feel about his way of thinking, and I'm not liking you very much as town either for the moment. Baezu (as stated earlier) leans town for me, as does BP.

I have no problem with BP's reads, i never said I did. I have a problem with darthe implying BP never was clear in giving out reads, while he was. Same thing as you're trying to pull of with me, come to think of it.

[Grimgroove]

Getting back to the rest later, but about my question:

5. Quite frankly, everything. My NL vote got loads of reactions and kinda got the game going, I think. Plus, Grimgroove's post on Future is quite the case, and Darthe's lurking is also something that worries me. But if you think that between page 2 and 7 nothing deserved of a change has happened, well then... give the thread another read.

This sounds exactly like the sort of thing scum would say. "I was wrong and

was trying to pull a fast one early

, but it got reactions guys!!!! Also, please don't lynch me."

What do you mean by "pulling a fast one"? It's an expression I am unfamiliar with. Why is "pulling a fast one" scummy and when did BP "pull a fast one"?

[Grimgroove]

In this case numberfour defended a no lynch on Day 1 and was town.

And he deserved to die for being anti-town. But this really comes up to opinion. I'm down with lynching village idiots, are you?

Only when there are no better options.
Also, numberfour didn't die in that topic, nobody did. It got cancelled before anyone got the chance to lynch/kill anyone.
Also, what makes someone a Village Idiot? Dio you feel BP deserves this title simply for his stance on No Lynch? What would you think if someone said that if someone is unable to use straightforward quote-tags properly, he'll probably also be unable to do something as complex as finding scum?

Here is the deal that I don't think you understand. NL day 1 is a horrible idea for reasons already explained (we lose a lynch, flip, chance at hitting scum, etc.). If the town nl d1 it puts the scum at a significant advantage over the town, thus it would be a good idea if scum could a achieve a no lynch d1. It makes prefect sense for scum to advocate for a nl d1 because it helps them out. So yes arguing for a no lynch is scummy, or at the very least not town.

We're going in circles. Please read what I said, I understand the theory perfectly fine, thank you.

[Grimgroove]

With 13 players it's very sad that the activity inhere is so low. What gives?

[Grimgroove]

I guess I'll spend my days looking forward to that then.
I assume that after your 177 you have "sorted things out"? Any findings?

[Grimgroove]

What is your read on Future, Red Dragon
And what about you Ztife? How do you feel about the wagon behind his name and the people on it?

[Grimgroove]

Maybe he's just a poor mafia player.

[Grimgroove]

Personally I wasn't so comfortable with Slandaar putting future at L-1 so quickly after nacho's vote. It may be nothing but if future flips town....

Please finish your sentence, I'm very curious what those 4 dots represent.

[Grimgroove]

Personally I wasn't so comfortable with Slandaar putting future at L-1 so quickly after nacho's vote. It may be nothing but if future flips town....

This.
Then again, I never quite gotten understanding slandaar and his voting and explainations in a couple of games anyway.

I find this a very wishywoshy post. It's impossible to distill your opinion from this.

[Grimgroove]

I get why people have issue with future, but his play doesn't make sense as mafia even in ISO. It would be incredibly poor mafia play.

Does it make much sense as town?

[Grimgroove]

Normally I don't think inactivity says something about alignment (luckily, if not pretty much all of you would be scum), but in this case I can't help but feel Future's sudden absence is scummy. He never adressed the issues laid before him, and left off in a hurried fury.
I realize it's rarely a good idea to lynch without a claim, but I don't think even a claim would convince me in this case, and I don't feel like sitting here idly for something tohappen. This game desperately needs a CPR shock in its current state, half of the playing field doesn't give a shit about what goes on here, and don't evenr ead half of people's posts.
I think a lynch on Future might at least provide some clearer basis for discussion, and will get use one lynched scum as an added bonus.
Hammertime!

[Grimgroove]

That's fine, I expected a reaction along those lines. Normally I don't like these holier than the pope stances like the one BP just made, but at least he's one of the few active people so I'm letting it slide. I guess he has not yet reached the point of frustration with this game where I am currently at.
I don't think I'm not being proper town. I've made a case against Future that he responded to in such a way that left my entire case standing and intact. His reaction strikes me as scum feeling silly of having been caught so early in the game, and deciding not to put too much effort in it anymore. This starts by some post referring to his meta, the editing of this post by the mod (not before chernobylcitybus could see the unconvincing original though), Future complaining about that and then simply disappearing.
So yes, I want this guy lynched, regardless of what he would claim.
Now, one argument could be: why end this day now, when there is still time?
To that my response is simple: so far we haven't done shit with our time. 90% of this game's posts are about game theory. If I wanted that, I'd just go check out the Wiki-pages instead of signing up for a game. I sincerely hope for you, for me, and for this game that the extra time you're willing to spend on D1 will be rewarded by some activity, but what I've seen leaves little room for such hope.
I don't really care about not being proper town, it's the inactivity that is the only true anti-town behavior in this topic.

[Grimgroove]

Future (6) - grimgroove, chernobylcitybus, BP, Baezu, Nachomamma8, Slandaar (L-1)

Lets look at this wagon

Grim is town
Cher maybe town, he made one good post
BP is town
Baezu is town.
Nacho hmmmm.
I am town

Looks good.

Agreed, especially with the "hmmmm".

[Grimgroove]

You guys need to listen to Slandaar. I am TOWN.

I swear to you.

The reason that I want to lynch BP is because he just seems to me to REEK of scum so why not continue to try to push for someone that I feel is scum? That is also the reason I was not willing to move my vote. But, since people obviously cannot be convinced by my words I will just have to wait for the mafia to NK me n1 to show you my role PM. Maybe there is a doctor out there who is willing to protect me because as I said before, I am TOWN. Also, when I get killed will you please vote for BP. That is my dying wish. For now, I will vote with those who are more experienced and take their word that future is indeed scum. Hopefully you guys are right.

VOTE: Future

Didn't like you until here, but this post is townie as it gets, not because of the defense but because of the tone and concern for life.

Funny how interpretations of this post are diametrical with for instance thegooner.
I find it townie. I'm not sure in how far swearing is actually allowed,

and some people take it more seriously than others

, but the thing in bold has got me convinced.

I'm sorry but this is really dumb.

I swear I'm town too.

Am I am townread now?

Yes, you're a townread now. Not because of you swearing you're town, because you obviously don't take it seriously (see bolded part in my original post), but because of calling me dumb.
I don't think scum would risk pissing me off like that.

I did think swearing was not allowed on this website though. Imagine some player you know is a father swearing on his children's lives that he's town. I for one would not for a single moment doubt the truthfulness of his claim, but I would consider it cheating.

Swearing is a social convention that plenty of people take seriously, without necessarily making them dumb.

[Grimgroove]

(PS, to clarify: I'm not angry for you calling it dumb, just to make that clear, but you did take a risk of making me angry by saying it, and you taking this risk makes you lean town for me)

Notice: This argument only applies to people who risked making me angry before I stated that makes them lean town for me. Any further provocations will be considered scummy.

[Grimgroove]

Nullread though. I hear that all the time.

[Grimgroove]

I'm disinterested by the future wagon, that is my official stance.

What makes the wagon uninteresting for you?

[Grimgroove]

When I first joined I got a message from ac1983 fan saying that I am a townsperson but that came into the game with powers. I wasn't told what the powers are, but I imagine there are some clues somewhere in the thread. I'm going to try to read through as quickly as possible so that I can let you know if I find anything, but can someone please take their vote off of me!

LOL

[Grimgroove]

You do make a good point on BP though, there are some contradictions inthere.

[Grimgroove]

But your claim is ludicrous, I'm sorry to say, so you need to be lynched.

[Grimgroove]

UNVOTE:

I think I see what happened here. SunnyDays simply misread his role-pm.
Nothing as honest as a mistake. SunnyDays is town and I was wrong about Future.

[Grimgroove]

Whew, that was close!
I wonder if Darthe's not knowing how to bold was genuine.

[Grimgroove]

Red Dragon: look at the VT-Role PM (check the mod-post if you have to). The way it's worded there, I can see how SunnyDays comes to such a strange conclusion about his role. He's a newbie who simply misunderstood.

[Grimgroove]

VOTE: thegooner

I'll sheep Slandaar for the time being until I get back.

@mod

: V/LA until Monday

[Grimgroove]

I don't think scum would risk pissing me off like that.

Why not? What makes you such a threat to scum in this playerlist?

Getting worried already? I see no reason at all why I should answer this question, and even less reasons why you should be asking this question.
You weren't PR-fishing, were you?

[Grimgroove]

UNVOTE:

I think I see what happened here. SunnyDays simply misread his role-pm.
Nothing as honest as a mistake. SunnyDays is town and I was wrong about Future.

What do you think he was misreading then? SunnyDays just seems to be posting crap claims and OMGUS voting, someone please explain to me the reasoning how is he town.

The sample VT-description in the beginning of this topic talks of "the only powers that you have are those you came in the game with". Instead of interpreting that as your intellect and a vote, obviously SunnDays thought there were some powers he had but that were not yet specified.

[Grimgroove]

thegooner obviously will be needing a replacement.

While we wait:

VOTE: Nachomamma8

[Grimgroove]

I see misguided town. Way too eager to claim, he's obviously sitting on something. I'd prefer leaving him alone for the moment.

[Grimgroove]

thegooner obviously will be needing a replacement.

While we wait:

VOTE: Nachomamma8

Not agreeing with this. ATM still seems pretty null to me.

If he's null to you, why bother singling out this vote on him in order to express your disagreement? I haven't seen you do that for votes on other people?

[Grimgroove]

Because he flaked?

[Grimgroove]

Hm.
Where is chernobylcitybus? apparently he received the prod, but he didn't post here.

[Grimgroove]

Darthe, what is your opinion on Nachomamma?
Nachomamma, what is your opinion on Darthe?
Elyse, what's your opinion on Darthe and Nachomamma?

[Grimgroove]

Yeah, that fake hammer was pretty good.

[Grimgroove]

why am I scummy?

Your contnuous presence on easy trains with little motivation of your own, despite arguments formulated against Elyse, of whom you seem to try to convince us you feel strongly about.
I don't like the Red Dragon-train for one bit. We're obviously dealing with a VI and we all know it. Scum is definitely on that train, and I think you are it.

[Grimgroove]

And speaking for RedDragon because he is so bleeding obvtown in my opinion, the townsperson role is on page 1 post 1 of the thread, so it's not like SunnyDays DEFINITELY overlooked that.

That's actually why SunnyDays' claim is a townslip. If he had gotten the role from the opening post,h e would know it's a VT-role with no special powers, since it's the standard role. It's because he had gotten it from his PM, that he was confused about it. That's why I said: nothing as honest as a mistake.

As for your catch-up: good job and props for the effort. the gooner is already forgotten.
Focussing on me now for the moment I don't see what's so scummy about my posts you highlighted with an exclamation mark. Care to elaborate?
I'll get into your reads list more in detail later, definitely agreeing with you on Nachomamma.

[Grimgroove]

Red Dragon can die in a fire. I hate self votes.

If you don't like his vote on himself, why do you like your vote on him?

[Grimgroove]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RedDragon

State your reasons.

[Grimgroove]

Sorry doll, but you know that kind of thing floats my boat.

I think self-voting is a null-tell. What would the scum-motivation be behind a self-vote, according to you?
The only thing I could possible see is some form of appeal to emotion, some "woe is me" kind of thing, but you can hardly say Red Dragon is trying to make himself loved/pitied. I don't see much of an appeal to emotion there, he's being defiant and is not exactly trying to make friends. I don't see any reason why scum would act that way.

[Grimgroove]

I see the frustration, but I don't think it's the scummy kind. If he wanted that lynch so much he could easily have hammered. Yes, it would have been frowned upon, but given the atmosphere at the time I don't think he would have gotten a lot of heat for that.

Why would he risk getting burned on trying to get a dead wagon going again, if he didn't risk getting burned by jumping on a live wagon?

[Grimgroove]

I have a hard time imagining someone losing their cool like that, but these last little exerpt do point that way. However, for reference, you should have included SunnyDays' post as well.

The way SunnyDays came in wasn't exactly according to the book and left much open for interpretation. I could see Red Dragon interpreting this as a poor fakeclaim, simply because I did as well at first. Only Red Dragon is having a much harder time letting go of the idea it was a fakecvlaim and doesn't want to face the fact it was simply a misunderstanding and a townslip. That's why I still think a VI who got into a self-righteous fury.

Now, I wouldn't consider Red Dragon a great loss at this point because I fear he'll continue this stubborn stance and because even if he is town, he'll be more of an asset to scum in the form of an easy mislynch. But the last reason is also the reason why I don't want this lynch to happen: it

is

an easy lynch, and I still believe it will be a mislynch. I would like to see how the people currently on the RD wagon will allow their impressions on him to evolve.

Look at it this way: Maybe he is scum, in that case I think he'll be silly enough to make even more mistakes that make his scumminess unquestionable. In case he isn't scum, I'm wondering how many people will still feel comfortable in lynching him the further this game progresses, based on "easy" reasons and interpretations of someone losing his "cool".

Anyway, MAYBE at the end of this stage I'll join for an RD-lynch because he's been an idiot and he won't help town, and because generally speaking I prefer a lynch. But if I see to many of my scumreads on the wagon, you'll have to pardon me for not joining. Just putting that out there already. I don't think a lynch on him would teach us a lot apart from his alignment, simply because in case he's town,h e really made it easy for scum. I'd prefer a lynch we can learn something from. Like a lynch on Nachomamma.

[Grimgroove]

I think RedDragon is bluffing or something.

He says that he's willing to be lynched, but then asks if we want him to claim? What's that about? If you want to be lynched, what's the point of claiming and possibly stalling your lynch?

I actually think this may be the worst thing I've read since being in this game now! I'm just going to put it in its own little post so that people can let that marinate.

I agree with you and know exactly what you mean.

[Grimgroove]

Red Dragon seems to have gone off the radar when the heat turned up.

This is bad as well. He only posted yesterday. If anything, he dropping off the radar is a good sign of him being town.
Could you respond to 389?
Also, the heat didn't really turn up, with Nachomamma voting on yet another possibly popular wagon it actually turned down again.

[Grimgroove]

Do everyone a favor and move your vote to someone you actually think is scum.

[Grimgroove]

Sounds like a pretty straightforward SK-claim.
Elyse: Imagine some drunk guy standing on a bridge, threatening to jump but not really wanting to. He just wants to prove to the world how much of a victim he is, and show some people a lesson. He's trying to make a point,h e doesn't want to die. Yet you are there, standing behind, shouting "jump! jump! jump!", all the while hoping the crowd that has gathered will push him off to a certain death.

At least that's how I see that post.

[Grimgroove]

Do everyone a favor and move your vote to someone you actually think is scum.

This should never have to be asked. Why are you buddying so hard?

Buddying? How is this question buddying?

But in a way, you are right. I think Red Dragon needs a friend right now, to help him step off that ledge and get back to business, and I'm willing to be that friend. You are obviously going for the Village Idiot lynch and I don't see how this will help us in any way.

Are you jealous? If you want to be my friend reply to post 389, which is not the same as 386.

Anyway, I'm glad I asked this question. And you should be as well, at least that self-vote that supposedly annoyed you so much is gone.

I don't like Nachomamma, but I don't like Elyse either. Will read their wall-war tomorrow and see where I go from there.

I also don't like Ztife and Peregrine. If time is generous I will try to pinpoint why.

Oh, and remind me to see if Nachopappa's walls actually make sense. I just looked at his reads on me for now, and those don't make any sense. I don't even know what his read is on me right now. Does anyone? Even his case on Nachomamma is coated with megafluff. I also find him overly careful when expressing his reads, Always adding some form of "these are just preliminary observations" or "I got later in the game, bear with me"-kind of sidenotes. Not liking those sidenotes, too apologetic.

[Grimgroove]

UNVOTE: for now, I have the impression quite a few have jumped on by now without much reasoning and L-2 is a bit too close for comfort.
Derp-avoidance before I get a firmer read on Nacho and Elyse after delving in their discussion, might return to where it was soon.

[Grimgroove]

5 days to deadline.
In the exchange between Elyse and Nacho, nacho's case seems abstract, Elyse gives me an overrall more town feel.

Unvote, Vote: Nachomamma8

BP is still my highest scum read though, I'll be happy to get this wagon if there's enough support.

As for RD, from the previous game I have been with him he seems to be the kind of player with such a "defeatist" playstyle. As such he reads town to me, although I don't agree with the self vote.

^Scummy post is scummy.

[Grimgroove]

Elyse, what are your current reads?

Same question for you, thank you!

[Grimgroove]

Oh, and remind me to see if Nachopappa's walls actually make sense. I just looked at his reads on me for now, and those don't make any sense. I don't even know what his read is on me right now. Does anyone? Even his case on Nachomamma is coated with megafluff. I also find him overly careful when expressing his reads, Always adding some form of "these are just preliminary observations" or "I got later in the game, bear with me"-kind of sidenotes. Not liking those sidenotes, too apologetic.

OK, just went over what happened while I was gone today.

Grimgroove, I'm not known to make sense.

Honestly, I'm having a hell of a fun time in this game mostly because I love playing with Nacho. And he's right, I hate playing scum - especially around him - I'd be super paranoid and I'd lurk like crazy. One of our completed games is an example. If I'm playing without him and I'm scum, I might give an effort for a while until all my deceiving energies are gone, but eventually, rather quickly, the effort would just fizzle out because I hate it just that much. Normally, it is just not in my heart to make an effort to be so deceitful for an extended period of time. Moreso if people I'm familiar with are around.

And before you do it, AtE is not a scumtell. If you're going to call circle-jerking "fluff," don't. If you wish to make a case on me rather than going in a roundabout way about why everything in my post didn't make sense and was mega-fluff, I urge you to do that.

That's a very defensive last paragraph

But let us first look at the rest of this post:

You start by admitting you usually don't make much sense. Either this was meant in a comical fashion (fluff), or it meant an acknowledgment of my view that you don't. This is contradictory to the defensiveness in the last paragraph, where you seem very bothered by this view of mine.

The paragraph starting with "honestly" is a bunch of cowdung. Without mentioning the WIFOM-aspect of it all, meta'ing yourself is just as bad as agreeing with someone else's meta-study on you, even when this person seems to be all you desire to be. The point of my post was that I wanted to find out (note how I didn't reach any conclusions yet, making uyour defensiveness even stranger) in how far you actually did put in an effort, or if you were just randomly collecting posts and put some symbols next to them.

First of all this procedure is not very helpful for any of us. When you are being asked about the "why's" of the exclamation marks and dollar signs, we are presented with a disclaimer that these are just preliminary observations, where you seem to want to apologize for possibly threading on any toes. Also the link between these dollarsigns and exclamation marks and the conclusions you reach on people is very unclear.

I don't need to show why "everything" in your post doesn't make sense. But the sample study I did do (your read on me, because it was the easiest to carry out) doesn't make sense. If this is illustrative for the rest of your reads, I fear we might indeed have a deceitful heartless scum on our hands.

I'll get back to your read on me in more detail later, I forgot to multiquote it and don't feel like starting this post all over again.

And yes, of course I call your circlejerking (it's not really a circle though) fluff, what else could you call it? A helpful addition to catching scum? Of course I don't mind the occasional tongue-in-cheeck comments and all that, this game is supposed to be fun, but this thing you're doing with Nachomamma is obviously some kind of act. A big act. Given the choice of your nickname I'm sure that this act goes beyond this game, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't be able to use it as some kind of cover as well. This whole thing makes the link between the two of you close to impossible to read and I don't like it.

Now I want to move to your read on Nachomamma. Obviously there is something going on between the two of your that surpasses the realm of this game, but your interactions with him, I find them unnatural.

Again I failed to multiquote the segments where you voted him and you told him why. I'll feel free to paraphrase this thusly:

Nachpappa voted Nachomamma because he wasn't putting much effort in his posts, and didn't seem tob e scumhunting.
This remark was coupled with buddying, along the lines of "I don't want to vote you", blahblehblah.

Then Nachomamma makes a case (aka starts a war of the quotes) with Elyse, and Nachopappa is pleased, and not only does he remove his vote, he immediately sheeps him:

Yay, Nacho's actually making posts that make Pappa happy.

Please listen to Nacho, Elyse, or the ground beneath you will tremble.

Love,

Mamma's friend Pappa

unvote

Nacho, if you feel strongly that someone is scum, I'm just gonna sheep you. Cuz I really liked your posts when you actually TRIED to give a post that's not pitiful. <3

Pappa has now joined Mamma, guys.

And I forgive you for being a sinner, Nacho. <3

Vote: Elyse

Fire is very bad for business.

Now my questions to Nachopappa:

* What makes you so pleased with Nachomamma's case on Elyse?
* What do you make of the fact Nachomamma needed a prompt (an L-2 wagon) in order to start scumhunting?
* Do you think Nachomamma's case on Elyse qualifies as scumhunting?

I'll answer that last question myself: I don't think it does. Mind you, he could be right, but what I see is no scumhunting from Nachomamma's part, it's a tunnel. This tunnel might lead us to scum, but this tunnel might also be his easy way out of a thight spot. Making a case against one person is easy. You ISO them, you nitpcik on their posts, put everything in a bad light, and put the attention on them. That's why I asked about Nachomamma's reads on others. I want to find out if he really did try to find scum, or if he decided to focus on Elyse from the start in case he'd get in trouble himself.

Elyse does seem scummy enough, I'll check her meta to see if she's one of these people who always seem scummy. Some people do that, and Nachomamma might just be the kind of person to try and take advantage of that from the very start. They way he tunneled her from the start seems to point that way.

Next up:
Nachpappa's ridiculous read and why Ztiffe's last post was scummy and should be our Day 1 lynch.

[Grimgroove]

Sidenote:

Sorry guys the game started on the first day of my short vacation.. Will be back tomorrow to post =)

catching up in progress.

Beyond that, the amusing way that he tried to twist it by saying that I am absolving myself with it was pitifully scummy because it shows disparity between his self vote and his interest in self preservation, thus revealing that he does not want to die at all. <--- This + Play + Attitude = Scum.

=

I think RedDragon is bluffing or something.

He says that he's willing to be lynched, but then asks if we want him to claim? What's that about? If you want to be lynched, what's the point of claiming and possibly stalling your lynch?

[Grimgroove]

Hmm, those Ztife quotes weren't supposed to be there, that's for my next post.

[Grimgroove]

I don't know if a lynch on him will still be doable, but I got quite convinced Ztife is scum.
Because this read on Ztife makes my read on Nachomamma/Elyse more complicated because of Ztife's stance on both, I'd prefer to start with a lynch on Ztife and sort out the Elyse-Nachomamma thing later.

Pretty much all of his posts are scummy. ISO him and see for yourself if you don't want to read my wall (I have the impression few people do)

Posts 86 and 144 are just statements he'll be catching up, after he arrived late in the game. Post 86 dates from the 14th of June.

On the 17th of June, 3-4 days later, he presents us with post 161. At first sight this looks like an impressive block of text, but all it is is a rehash of the game theory discussions of what has been going on. Based on this, he starts a case against BP, who Ztife will be tunneling throughout the rest of the game based on this case. In 161 no other arguments are given besides this game theory disagreement, aside from a particularly agressive take on BP's post 112, which he chooses to read in the worst possible light.

The following that happens is that Darthe gives him a townread for this awful post, and me putting question marks around this by stating what I just stated here.

He responds to this in 170 by a complete misrep of me and by asking me hordes of questions that have already been answered. This proved for me he hadn't really read the topic, or caught up as he promised on the 14th of June and pretended to deliver on the 17th of June.

This is where I'll actually start (partially) quoting, because the posts get a bit smaller.

@Grim
Ok, I see. I admit I haven't take much of a closer look at alot of posts yet,

but atm the only thing that interest me is BP.

What do you think of his hesitation then? It was not so much of an NL, but more of the lack of explaination for his own push and then the wavering opinions about it.

@PeregrineV
Please explain your BP town read.

Gonna be catching up on this future wagon now.

He admits to only be interested in BP, while at the same time admitting he hasn't taken a closer look to other posts. This hints at a bias from the very start of the game, because why would he decide to take a closer look at BP's posts and not at others? He had 3-4 days of catching up, yet all he managed to do was read BP's posts?
Note that now suddenly, as opposed to 161, the game theory disagreement in itself is suddenly no longer the problem, and the sidenote and agressive interpretation of 112 suddenly become the center of his "case". I responded to his question, but he never bothered to respond that that answer, probably because it didn't fit his story.
Note the promise he'll be catching up on the Future-wagon. All these promises of catching up sound to me like someone who doesn't put much effort into scumhunting and buys himself some time.

In post 201 we still see nothing of this supposed catching up with the Future-wagon, but just see another remark towards BP. BP is obviously still his only interest, and all this still based on this game theory discussion. If the case were strong I'd agree, but this kind of tunneled commitment is entirely unwarranted.

Then finally, the catch-up with other things going on in this topic in post 220, which I'll split up a bit for the sake of being clearer.

Don't really have any reads on future tbh since it looks like mostly semi-serious posting in RVS. Seems to be over-reacting though with the case from Grim, but I can't really read anything.

I see a lot of second-guessing and on the fence sitting. He starts the sentence with "Can't get any reads" and ends in the same way, and in between there's something that's supposed to speak in Future's favor (I don't actually understand the part about semi-serious posting), and one against Future for an overreaction. While I don't understand the first point, i don't believe it makes much sense. The second point definitely makes no sense. Future barely responded to my case. He overreacted to the deletion of his supposed defense, but he never really responded to my case.

@PeregrineV's 109
How does BP looks town to you?

Scum doesn't argue for No lynches, because they want to mislynch instead.
They especially don't take a no-lynch stance and then actively defend it after it's been pointed out how it's not the best solution.
Of course his play and stances will be continually evaluated, but for day1, I'm good with BP=town.

That's false, NL and mislynch technically similar for scum. Both situations requires 3 mislynches after to win. If we're lynching D1 scum will be forced to make a decision of joining a wagon or not and shit, if its NL everyone would just sit back and relax.

Also, my point is it does not seem like he is arguing for it and actively defending it, quite the contrary actually.

More game theory talk, trying to enforce his flimsy case against BP through repetition. His last sentence is very unclear, but I think it refers again to BP's stating he wouldn't mind a NL and BP's participation in voting wagons. An argument to which I reacted before, but Ztife casually ignored.

Personally I wasn't so comfortable with Slandaar putting future at L-1 so quickly after nacho's vote. It may be nothing but if future flips town....

This.
Then again, I never quite gotten understanding slandaar and his voting and explainations in a couple of games anyway.

These "then again" posts seem very scummy to me. Very on the fence and secondguessing, again no clear read. Note that up to this point he has given no read on anyone apart from BP.

Next quote I'll also be splitting up:

TBH, I'm finding it hard to get into this game, mainly with the lack of pressure on BP and the tunneling (or the tunneling awhile back) of Future.

First of all: hypocrite. If anyone's been tunneling on anyone, it's Ztife on BP. And why does lack of pressure on one person make it harder to get into a game? This game is more than just about BP. His reasons for not being able to get into the game make no sense, and are an easy excuse for his broken promises.

Bullshit. <b>unvote vote sunnydays </b>

The bolding, the lack of colon after mod reminder, and a crucial hammering vote. Seems sloopy/fake. Hmm.

Given Darthe's earlier generous townread and this weak attempt at some form of criticism, I wouldn't be surprised when I see a Darthe-Ztife-Elyse scumteam. (Elyse got added for reasons unexplained in this post, but Ztife's vote on Nachomamma and the connection between Darthe and Elyse that's been pointed out earlier are the principal reasons).

UNVOTE:

I think I see what happened here. SunnyDays simply misread his role-pm.
Nothing as honest as a mistake. SunnyDays is town and I was wrong about Future.

What do you think he was misreading then? SunnyDays just seems to be posting crap claims and OMGUS voting, someone please explain to me the reasoning how is he town.

Beating a dead horse. By removing the SunnyDays vote we actually dropped the tunnel he claimed to regard as an impediment to get into the game, yet here I can only see disappointment when we actually do move the vote for reasons that have been explained adequately.

309
The case is mostly on gooner's theory talk with weak reasoning, I don't really see how scum could give out jumbled cases like this. Seems like genuine town with weak scum hunting. Need to see his reads and thoughts more, 5 posts does not warrant a confident read for me.

All of this criticism applies to his own case on BP. This is an exercise of simultanously buddying to Slandaar by calling him a probtown, but at the same time trying to make him less of a threat in this topic by calling his cases jumbled and weak. This also reads as a weak defense for thegooner, but I don't think the gooner-slot is part of the scumteam. Sounds like a minor effort for a set-up.

Sunnydays is going to have to do a little better than that in the Future.



Damn I'm funny.

Vote:thegooner

@PeregrineV
How confident is your read on gooner? Any particular highlights why he seems scum to you?

Same as above. Note there has been no substance with these criticism on the case against gooner, and also no clear read from Ztife on gooner. BP is still the only person Ztife gave a read on.

thegooner obviously will be needing a replacement.

While we wait:

VOTE: Nachomamma8

Not agreeing with this. ATM still seems pretty null to me.

Remember this.

@PeregrineV
How confident is your read on gooner? Any particular highlights why he seems scum to you?

Answered this pre-tiger, but his first real post expresses a concern with the perception he may still be in RVS.
His second post was on mafia theory and his take on it.
Third was badly reasoned vote on Beazu.

Confidence is it's day1, so willing to listen to other arguments, but my own inferior scumhunting has brought me to this conclusion.

What of sunny's claim? Do you buy it?

No comment on the questions about gooner, so still no read from Ztife. all we get is another question about the already dead case on SunnyDays, also someone Ztife didn't give a read on. Only open questions without any follow-up.

thegooner obviously will be needing a replacement.

While we wait:

VOTE: Nachomamma8

Not agreeing with this. ATM still seems pretty null to me.

If he's null to you, why bother singling out this vote on him in order to express your disagreement? I haven't seen you do that for votes on other people?

Because of a lack of reason, and because im interested in knowing what you have to say for the vote.

Poor answer, there have been plenty of votes without reasoning, notably from Nachomamma himself. His interest in my motivations could be explained by scum wanting to hop on a certain wagon he earlier claimed to disagree with.

@Red Dragon
Heed this., Elyse"]
I think sunny's claim is incredibly ambiguous as well, but im more inclined to look at how the wagon is falling apart.
There's no deadline yet, so wait for gooner's slot to post.

Suddenly the SunnyDay's claim is less of an issue, he simply calls it ambiguous (still no clear read). Despite all the questions he asked about it before, he doesn't seem to care very much about the claim. Then why the questions?
Also he states he wants to see how the wagon fell apart? What does this mean? And where did he do that?

5 days to deadline.
In the exchange between Elyse and Nacho, nacho's case seems abstract, Elyse gives me an overrall more town feel.

Unvote, Vote: Nachomamma8

BP is still my highest scum read though, I'll be happy to get this wagon if there's enough support.

As for RD, from the previous game I have been with him he seems to be the kind of player with such a "defeatist" playstyle. As such he reads town to me, although I don't agree with the self vote.

And this one takes the cake in scumminess. His shift from a null-read on Nachomamma to an L-2 (I'd call it an L-1 vote given the circumstances) without a satisfying explanation."An abstract case"? What is Ztife's case on Nachomamma then? He put him at L-2 over such a silly reason? Really?

And BP still being his highest scumread, well, the case is weak, and BP was hardly here lately, not providing Ztife with extra arguments. This is just a way to show us he's got different possible trajectories, keeping an open-minded stance, but in all fairness: he's got nothing. He's got no cases, no reads, just a tunnel on BP and a very poor L-2 vote on Nachomamma.

Lynch him.

[Grimgroove]

Almost forgot:

VOTE: Ztife

[Grimgroove]

I'm too tired to go into the Nachopappa thing further, and as it suddenly feels less relevant, I'll save it for later.

[Grimgroove]

The chainsaw defending going on here is fucking ridiculous, seriously. Grim, could you possibly deflect from this with anyone else? You've only pointed fingers at about half the player roster now.

Deflect what? The Red Dragon has disintegrated even without my doing.

And yes, I point a lot of fingers. When people act scummy, I do. Could you point to where I made an argument that didn't make sense, in order for you to conclude my fingerpointing is simply a deflection?

You could also try to respond to the content of the case? I bet you didn't even read it.

Currently, Elyse and Nachomamma are locked into a fight which will likely result in one of them getting lynched, and frankly, at this stage, I wouldn't mind either of them hanging from the rope. To respond to Red Dragon: if find it very unlikely they are aligned.

Like I said, I find it too early to get any firm conclusion on either Nachomamma or Elyse. They both act scummy, and they both have scummy people on their wagon.

Hence I feel more comfortable in voting Ztife, based on my own case and my own arguments.

Nacho's case on Elyse seems compelling, but like I said, might be a set-up. If both would be at L-1 at the end of D1, right now I'd say I'd also vote to lynch Elyse.

[Grimgroove]

And yeah, Nacho/Elyse are not playing their greatest. But your conjecture of some wildly large setup between them and I is simply implausible to me, and would be even if I didn't know my own role PM.

Nonono, don't make me sound like some crazy conspiracy theory guy. I never claimed such thing.
The explained exactly what the Nachomamma-Elyse thing is about in 479, you have nothing to do with that.

What conjecture is it that you're talking about?

Currently I'm linking you to Elyse (what is your read on her) and Ztife. I don't expect you to have much on Ztife, but commenting on my case against him could give us insights on how you do read him. I disagree it's a weak case. and even if it is, there's no reason not to try and make it stronger.

We'll see in the end which case is stronger by seeing whog ets lynched, but if you want to get that Red Dragon lynch you'll have to come with more than you already did. All you've proven so far is that he has acted like a VI. What are the scumtells?
You call him:
self voting - not scummy in this case
depraved - ?
lurking - untrue
manipulative - please...

[Grimgroove]

@Nachopappa: if you want to be offended, please be so for the right reasons. I never called your efforts in catching up and putting dollar signs next to posts cowdung. I called it not easy to work with for other playyers, because 1. your reasons for the signs are not clarified, 2. the leap from signs to conclusions is unclear.

What I did call cowdung was this:

Grimgroove, I'm not known to make sense.

Honestly, I'm having a hell of a fun time in this game mostly because I love playing with Nacho. And he's right, I hate playing scum - especially around him - I'd be super paranoid and I'd lurk like crazy. One of our completed games is an example. If I'm playing without him and I'm scum, I might give an effort for a while until all my deceiving energies are gone, but eventually, rather quickly, the effort would just fizzle out because I hate it just that much. Normally, it is just not in my heart to make an effort to be so deceitful for an extended period of time. Moreso if people I'm familiar with are around.

And I gave you the reasons why I called it that. I realize you don't like walls, but don't read diagonally and get all offended on me for no reason.

[Grimgroove]

@Grim

Your case on Ztife is basically what you accused Nacho of doing to me. You said, "Making a case against one person is easy. You ISO them, you nitpcik on their posts, put everything in a bad light, and put the attention on them."

Moreover, if you think that me vs Nacho is town vs scum, then you should really be on one of us rather than creating a new wagon. Also, can you explain this link between me, Darthe, and Ztife you keep mentioning?

Yes, I was expecting this thing in bold, and I'll give you several reasons why it's not the same:

1. I never tunneled solely on Ztife.
2. My comments are not nitpicky. They are statements about the essence of his posts, not about choices of words.
3. If you feel I put everything Ztife said in a bad light, feel free to put it under a good light.

I explained why I don't feel like joining either the Nachowagon or the elyse wagon right now, no reason to reiterate this question. Why is everyone acting like those two wagons are final? There's still time to get a Ztife-lynch. And even if there isn't, I wouldn't want to pass off the chance to put Ztife in the spotlight just because there's something else going on as well. If not today, I hope my case will be referred to during Day 2.

Like I said, if push comes to shove, I will lynch you Elyse. Or maybe Nachomamma, depending on how he asnwers my questions/requests. But I prefer the Ztife lynch because I got a firmer read on that guy, with less other players complicating things. My read on you and Nachomamma is being blurried by Nachomamma and you, as well as Ztife and Darthe's stances.

[Grimgroove]

@Nachopoppa
Your reasoning for switching off of Nacho and onto me is complete shit.

What do you think of Ztife's reasoning to move his vote to Nachomamma?

[Grimgroove]

Wow, I don't remember saying that. But what I wrote is true. Don't you call this post cowdung because I'm telling you this. I had just gotten back from a tiring daytrip yesterday when I wrote that. :/ I was a bit discombobulated. I'm feeling good and awake today and I'm not feeling inclined to sheep Nacho at all.

It may be true, but it is in no way convincing, and therefore of equal value to the brownish thing you can sometimes find in the field.

[Grimgroove]

I'm being put to work just before the weekend

Nacho's case on Elyse seems compelling, but like I said, might be a set-up. If both would be at L-1 at the end of D1, right now I'd say I'd also vote to lynch Elyse.

I like how you say this really confidently and don't leave any doubt that you will choose Elyse at this point.

No doubt? "right now" "I'd say" "I'd vote". I think my vote leaves plenty of room for doubt, like I also clarified in my latest response to elyse. That's why I want to Ztife wagon to take off, I have far less doubts there.

And yeah, Nacho/Elyse are not playing their greatest. But your conjecture of some wildly large setup between them and I is simply implausible to me, and would be even if I didn't know my own role PM.

I agree. The conjecture seems to be blasphemy.

Again I must ask: what conjecture are you talking about?

Deflect what? The Red Dragon has disintegrated even without my doing.

And yes, I point a lot of fingers. When people act scummy, I do. Could you point to where I made an argument that didn't make sense, in order for you to conclude my fingerpointing is simply a deflection?

You could also try to respond to the content of the case? I bet you didn't even read it.

Currently, Elyse and Nachomamma are locked into a fight which will likely result in one of them getting lynched, and frankly, at this stage, I wouldn't mind either of them hanging from the rope. To respond to Red Dragon: if find it very unlikely they are aligned.

Like I said, I find it too early to get any firm conclusion on either Nachomamma or Elyse. They both act scummy, and they both have scummy people on their wagon.

Hence I feel more comfortable in voting Ztife, based on my own case and my own arguments.

Nacho's case on Elyse seems compelling, but like I said, might be a set-up. If both would be at L-1 at the end of D1, right now I'd say I'd also vote to lynch Elyse.

I hate the tone of the bolded part. I'm not even going to bother putting things in exclamations or $$ signs. You're almost too willing to go for either Nacho or Elyse, almost not seeming to care which one you pick. I actually sort of see Darthe's point that you seem to have too many cases on people and thus you are willing to lynch, it seems, any of a multiple number of people....

If I would be so willing to go for either Nachomamma or Elyse, I would simply hop on either wagon.
Darthe's point you like so much has been responded to in the bolded, itcalic part. Please feel free to answer that question yourself.

[Grimgroove]

I think my post on Ztife, while long, is pretty focussed and strong. He's my main scumread and my main focus and I have made this obvious.

The only other time this happened was when I made a case on Future.

My vote on Nachomamma stemmed more from a general bad feeling about his wagonhopping and lack of reads, but did not really result from a case that I worked out.

I point fingers and reply to anything that comes my way, making me seem like "all over the place", but when it comes to my actual cases, you'll be surprised how focused I can be.

But thank you for that constructive criticism (seriously, no sarcasm here). I will try to take it into account.

[Grimgroove]

@Nachopoppa
Your reasoning for switching off of Nacho and onto me is complete shit.

What do you think of Ztife's reasoning to move his vote to Nachomamma?

I think it's perfectly normal. No one is looking at BP right now, so he moved his vote somewhere useful.

Are you going to explain the connection between Ztife, Darthe, and I?

Are you going to read my posts?

[Grimgroove]

I also have nothing much to add. I do agree with grim that the posts he chose make ztife look scummy but I personally think elyse is more scummy (for the reasons that have been brought against her over the last few pages) so my vote is staying there.

The posts I chose? I commented on his entire post-history within this topic. There was no pre-selection from my part.

[Grimgroove]

Elyse if you promise me that you're not scum then I will believe you, but if you lie it will make me very unhappy, and thats not nice.
I have extended the totem of trust, do you accept it?

Yes, I accept it. I promise I'm town.

Didn't you laugh in my face earlier in this game for taking swearing seriously? Why are you doing this?

I will get into Ztife's insults tomorrow. I'm not moving my vote, both out of spite and out of conviction.

Ztife did NOT, in any way, refute my case. He basically just called me a bad player. For someone urging for short posts, he could have just done that in one sentence.

[Grimgroove]

I did. I can't find it. I probably missed it in the

walls of fluff.

Sticks and stones baby, sticks and stones. You know it ain't true.

Summary for our Highness:

Ztife - Elyse: Ztife's choice for voting Nachomamma and not Elyse
Darthe - Elyse: Role in the Red Dragon wagon
Darthe - Ztife: through Elyse

And for the three of you: on the fence reads on one another.

Anyway, this is a sidenote. The associative tells were just a sidenote, and you are sidetracking me by asking these questions to repeat myself.

Ztife is scum and I'll try to get him lynched. ToDay.

[Grimgroove]

I'm not saying there wasn't scum on your wagon, but how are you supposed to distinguish who's scum and who's not when you asked people to vote you?

It's opportunistic as fuck to vote for someone who asks to be voted for.

The only reason why you should be voting anyone is because you think they're scummy. NOT because they ask you to.

To vote for any other reason than scumminess is opportunistic.

Town can be opportunistic too of course, when for instance they want to see a flip and have to vote a nullread in order to do it. But right now, any opportunistic vote is scummy in my eyes. That's what I've been trying to explain to you with the drunk guy on the bridge metaphor. A metophor I recall you agreeing with.

@Baezu: I'd hop on an Elyse wagon any time in my current state of mind, she made me angry and hurt my pride by calling my walls fluff, and I'm pretty sure she knew it would. But I don't want to let my emotions get the better of me.

The Ztife case is better, I know it and I will try my very best to convince everyone of this.

[Grimgroove]

A lot of effort went in those walls. I think I spent an hour compiling that case on Ztife alone. If it gets called stupid and fluff by people who obviously didn't even bother to read it, then yes, I get angry, or at least annoyed.

I don't need a thicker skin, but I obviously need to spend far less time on this game given the consensus inhere that I need to tone it down.

[Grimgroove]

Not much point in maintaining a style that ends up in me getting ignored, is there?

[Grimgroove]

@Slandaar:

Thank you for replying to my Ztife wall. I'm not sure how to respond to it since I am gonig to make a point of it not to make any walls anymore for the remainder of this Day, but you're right when you say I'm still convinced I'm correct in my read on Ztife.

I guess the summary: "Ztife isn't scumhunting and only places opportunistic votes aside from his unwarranted tunnel on BP" will have to do it. You seem to understand where the tunnel is coming from and how it does constitute scumhunting, but I disagree entirely.

I don't think I can offer more than that except for my reply on Ztife's latest post which is incoming.

[Grimgroove]

You know, Grim, if you're looking for something specifically then you are likely to find it whether true or not. Setting these parameters of Ztife, Elyse, Darthe into a triangle and then plug and chugging doesn't actually constitute scumhunting.

What makes you think this is how it happened? Actually, thinking that I've been doing this I guess should result in a scumread on me, no? You're basically saying I made a case out of thin air and not scumhunting, thus only trying to pretend to do so? Or am I understanding you incorrectly?

The only thing I'm looking for specifically is "scum". I thought that was the point here. But I didn't put a parameter "Ztife is scum" before delving into his posts, I reached that conclusion only after doing so.

There could be a mistake in my associative tells between the three of you, but like I said again and again, these associative tells do not constitute the center of the case against Ztife.

[Grimgroove]

Quick reply here.

Therefore I can't think why Nacho would be this confident about elyse. Also,

scums don't usually start wagons

, and I think Nacho might be trying to fuck with our minds here, and therefore my gut says to get some pressure on this wagon.

I don't agree with this.

Scums don't usually start wagons because it draws attention. I do think nachom's case here is weak and it seems scummy tho.

@Grim
where's your reply reinforcing your shit case on me? Stop being around the bush with the "no more walls but I'm not replying anymore about the case but I still think Ztife is scum" crap.
#572 more "Im scum hunting and I'm confident of my reads but I don't offering anything else" fluff.
Reply to #516, explain how I would do these "lurking, tunneling on BP, opportunistic actions" as scum motivation and why would it stand out to you. Especially to players such as, Baezu.

I will, but keep in mind you didn't grant me the same. You replied to my case, yes, if replying means quoting part of what I said and then going off on a rant. But you never responded to it.
I'll reply to your post 516 today, in my own style, so I'll probably break my no-walls-resolution.

Do you have anything else to add in the meanwhile aside from this? Am I a scumread of yours?

[Grimgroove]

Too lazy to quote most because I think Grim's case is full of BS, but a couple of replies;

Picking and chosing what you feel comfortable in replying to, hoping the rest will be ignored.

I know its hard for your ego to see it but contrary to your beliefs,

Unnecessary.

your cases are word-centric.

What does this mean? That I use words to express my case? Semantics? where did I do that?
Or are you just referring to me using a wall? Are you saying any case presented as a wall is bad?
Please clarify.

What is the "essence" of your case on me? Why would you not be able to properly bring your reasoning across in a short paragraph about my scumminess?

As I see it, the case is basically "Ztife's weak case on BP and does nothing else, Ztife doesn't pay attention to the game enough, Ztife asks 'questions with no substances', Ztife's vote on nacho is fishy"

This is a very good summary. Thank you.
My inability to be consice is a weakness, I admit, but does that make my case bad per definition? How?
I am one of those who thinks it's best to be thorough and complete, a thing I strived for when presenting my case on you, step by step.

My case on BP was not about the game theory, but about why he started the whole NL thing to begin with. The case is not about our views on NL, its about BP's wavering views on it.

As I explained in my wall (I have the feeling you didn't read it or are hoping others didn't and somehow find your defense convincing this way), that's not how you started off your scumread on BP. You already called him out before he wavered in his views, and only later you professed it's only the wavering views that were a problem. I also discussed why his wavering views were not a problem, yet you never responded to arguments defending this possibility.

What's tunneling? How do you define tunneling? What defines me tunneling on BP?

Pointless string of questions.

How does that makes me scum?

This has also been explained in my wall. Why do you make me repeat myself?

Does mentioning BP in more than X amount of posts constitutes tunneling?

Pointless question.

I gave comments about low activity from the major wagons, and I don't think they put much thought into their posts, and they are not incredibly scummy to me.

I don't see how any of that points to you being town. Do you?

This is in contrast with BP's "LETS NL, OH NO WAIT, I AGREE WITH YOU, I THINK I"LL LYNCH". There's plenty of analysis about this, but I'll just skip it for now because his slot issin't even posting anyway.

Also on this pooint I've already properly explained myself. You're just trying to wear me out aren't you? You're succeeding.

About reading, how do you define active? How do you define reading the game sufficiently? Do I have to make notes?

I have no definitions for you, but your activity is indeed not great in itself, but that alone is not a scumtell necessarily. But the things you say when you are active are extraordinarily scummy.

I skimmed through some parts, and I just happen to miss out yours, and therefore I asked double questions. Does that makes me scummy? For someone who is not really reading the game closely is he more likely scum or town? Please enlighten me what goes through in your mind.

My wall. Read it. It's is almost an exact transcript of what was going on in my mind.
Again, basically every question you ask has already been covered by me.

To add, I think your views are weak/silly

Why?

and that's why it was easier to miss them (I also mentioned that slandaar belongs to this group at the back of my mind).

Why are silly arguments easier to miss? They should be difficult to miss. Silly arguments are often made by scum trying to get a mislynch.

Your reason about sunny's "misreading role pm" and therefore not scum is just epic actually.

They are epically valid.

The great scum hunter Grim

Unnecessary.

posted a wall why Future is scum, and a dubious/ambiguous claim and suddenly he's town. Pretty rediculous if I must say.

So what is the problem? My case on Future or my townread on him afterwards? Or are you just trying to rub it in that I was more than probably wrong about Future, and therefore I must be wrong about you as well?

The only reason I didn't persue this is because I simply didn't find the slot to be scummy anyway.

When didn't you weigh in on the Future-discussion when it was still relevant, instead of this post-factum mudslinging?

I like intereactions, I like posts, I like to question "blank" votes and views so that I may refer back to them later in the game. The connection between Peregrine's vote on nacho may not seem like a big deal now, but it could potentially be in the future.

For someone who likes interactions and posts, you haven't been involved in either very much.

Unlike you, I don't believe in having the need to have "substance behind every post".

Substance is underrated. I really believe the opposite. Without substance, a post is fluff. Fluff does not help anyone.

I don't believe in earning town-cred.

Are you saying I set up this case just to get town-cred? seriously?
What if you are actually speaking the truth and you are town, how would a lynch on you get me any towncred?

I scum hunt and part of the way I do it is to create discussion and reveal "blanks" so I can refer for inconsistancies and slips. I do see Nacho as a strong player because I believe he does this well.

you are not. You have almost done nothing.

I believe Elyse seems to a passive player, but her posts does not give me the feeling that she intends to hide her reads or intentions. These are town-traits to me. Nacho's case seems abstract because I just can't see how her actions triggers his explainations. She didn't hide that she wants future and bp lynched/scum read. Having unoriginal reads D1 is not strange to me IMHO. Some players enter the game with strong reads just off a few posts. Other's takes more posts and a couple of cases and those that has similiar train of thoughts will have similiar reads. Null/passiveness is not a strong scum-read for me D1. In fact I actually think the flip and wagon formation is the most crucial D1 element. Towards the later days we will see which are the debates that were scum-town or town-town and it will be useful to reflect on the bandwagon formations.

Therefore I can't think why Nacho would be this confident about elyse. Also, scums don't usually start wagons, and I think Nacho might be trying to fuck with our minds here, and therefore my gut says to get some pressure on this wagon.

This explains your Nacho-vote, and is hereby the only scummy thing (your vote on Nacho) you somewhat explained.
The argument about scum usually not starting wagons: meh.
The original ideas thing: agreed.
Don't see the relevance of what you think is crucial D1 (flip and wagons) and what will be the next steps. We're still in D1 now, act in the here and now. If you want to see a flip you'll want to lynch someone, and if you're town you want this lynch to be as helpful to town as possible. Which of your actions tried to achieve this?
None.

[Grimgroove]

Baezu will you lynch Nacho-scum with me

Is this a joke?

[Grimgroove]

I can compromise on Baezu.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Baezu

She hasn't done anything and her posts have been strange. Ever since her "I SWEAR I'M TOWN!!111!!!" people have been townreading her for no reason. And she's been coasting off that.

Nacho/me could be counterwagons to RD scum so I'd be more comfortable lynching RD/Baezu.

P-edit:
I'm just ignoring the Nachoparents back-and-forth for now.

Very bad. If this "compromise" isn't opportunistic, I don't know what is. You simultaneuosly "buddy" someone who's been on your case since forever and get a deflection wagon. How is this in any way a compromise for you?

I remember earlier you said I was being unproductive by trying to get a Ztife-wagon going while you and Nachomamma were the main wagons. Why not the same point of criticism towards nachomamma?

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Elyse

@Nachomamma: Your case on Baezy definitely has merit but I disagree with it. Baezu is still a townread for me. MAybe I'm too susceptible to AtE's, but that's how it is. I'll give you my theory on Baezu: Town PR who has no idea how to scumhunt. Try reading her posts in that light and tell me why this interpretation can't be true.
Her swearing she's town like that early in the game, I simply don't see that coming from scum, sorry.

What do you make of your herd?

Also, I saw in your reads that you had Elyse and Peregrine down as "vcan die any time". Mind explaining your read on Peregrine?

@Nachopappa: Why are you acting like that? You seem very intent on being considered "that crazy guy". Why?

I'm dropping my Ztife-vote but not my Ztife-read, but I don't see a majority forming behind his name any time soon. I don't seem to have the same rallying capacities as others, nor my theories.

Sadly I don't have an dirty sponges lying around to wager any bets on.

[Grimgroove]

I don't need to put in the time to get scum lynched,

I don't understand this bit.

[Grimgroove]

This is not good, not good Make it stop

[Grimgroove]

Looking at the reasons why Elyse and Darthe jumped on your wagon, I don't think they'll get away with it in case you flip town.
I don't understand the town-read so many people have on Darthe.

[Grimgroove]

In Elyse's case she did hint at Baezu possibly being scum before, so it's a little less blatant (though considering my scumread on Elyse, I think it's just better prepared), but in Darthe's case I think his vote on Baezu is incredibly scummy.

He goes from this:

We are lynching RD scum.

Beazu is not an option.

Nacho, to use his term, is town as fuck and elyse is as well.

Also, Nachopop is getting annoying as shit. Caps.. really?

To this:

Elyse, why do you have a problem with me doing the same stuff you're doing?

Why does that make me scum? I have voted on 3 people this entire game. You've had your votes on: Kattaze, gooner, Slandaar, reddragon, and me; you've FoS'd future (post #155). Perhaos the people you haven't voted are your scum buddies.
\

Fuck, I really wanted you to be town. How did this drivel make its way into a case? How can you admit to doing one thing and simultaneously continue to accept it in yourself while condemning it in another? Worse, using that as a point against them.

I want this day to end, I want info, and it is tiring to watch continue.

unvote vote: beazu

Come on, I can't be the only one who sees this?
The point he's using against Baezu is not that strong. Baezu is calling Elyse a hypocrite. I think it's one of the most common arguments used against people in maffiagames, simply because hypocrisy is a sign of inconsistency, inconsistency is a sign of unsincerity, and unsincerity is a sign of scumminess.

Don't let this train continue. Even if you're not convinced Baezu is town, I think it's obvious there's scum riding it.

[Grimgroove]

In short: The magnitude of Darthe's sudden switch is not proportioal compared to the argument he brought forward against her.

(See? No walls )

[Grimgroove]

Ztife and Darthe are the only two I'd really feel confident with when lynching them.
Elyse would be a compromise, but out of the wagons it's the only one I can live with.
It's good there is not really a deadline, meaning there IS still time for another train.

[Grimgroove]

She is like the kingpin, everything falls into place when she flips.

Could you already point out how the falling into place-thing would happen for the scenario where she flips scum and for the scenario where she flips town? No harm in doing that in advance, right?

[Grimgroove]

@Darthe:

Well, for starters, I think my 645 is what you are looking for, or at least a start of it.
I think your switch to Baezu is too sudden given the poor reason you provide with it.
So yeah, mind responding to that one?
I'll ISO myself to see what else I commented on with regards to you, but you pop in and out of my attention zone quite easily, that's why I don't have a case on you ready yet.

PS: I never claimed I was certain of your alignement? I just feel more confident in thinking you are scum, but that doesn't make me dead-certain.

[Grimgroove]

But it's not a contradictory statement, using hypocrisy as an argument against someone is very common practice. I've never seen it happen that when someone uses it, he gets a scumread on him instead of a townread as a result. Yet it happened here.

I'd ask which other statements you find blatantly poor, but given the tipping point has not succeeded in convincing me, I don't think the others will either.

Is RD your only alternative scumread?

[Grimgroove]

The deadline is in 3 days. I have the feeling quite some people are hiding as this moment of truth draws nearer.

[Grimgroove]

I like the new arrival a lot.

VOTE: Darthe

[Grimgroove]

Examine dynamics? Just start with this.

But it's not a contradictory statement, using hypocrisy as an argument against someone is very common practice. I've never seen it happen that when someone uses it, he gets a scumread on him instead of a townread as a result. Yet it happened here.

I'd ask which other statements you find blatantly poor, but given the tipping point has not succeeded in convincing me, I don't think the others will either.

Is RD your only alternative scumread?

Or alternatively, this:

Darthe:

Then comes this:

Fuck, I really wanted you to be town. How did this drivel make its way into a case? How can you admit to doing one thing and simultaneously continue to accept it in yourself while condemning it in another? Worse, using that as a point against them.

I want this day to end, I want info, and it is tiring to watch continue.

unvote vote: beazu

All this game, throughout the entire game, you build a case against Red Dragon, you are certain he is scum and all that jazz. Suddenly Baezu looks like a sizeable wagon and you instantly forget about Red Dragon and hop there immediately, based on completely nonexistent scum read. I'm sorry, but that's as scummy as it gets. Refer to Antagon in Newbie 1391 and Honest Abel in Newbie 1344.

There is one thing that could potentially absolve Darthe, and that's his fakehammer. That was a very townie-thing to do and a real good find. People are usually honest post-hammer, and probably Darthe was trying to find out something in this way, by messing with SunnyDays' head.

So he's done one very townish thing and one very scumiish thing. This should make him null I guess, but it's easier to fake townish things (and there's also no point in faking scummish things), so the quotes above summary pretty well why he should be lynched.

If anything was derp Darthe, it was your switch to Baezu for no decent reason at all. Regardless of your alignment.

[Grimgroove]

IMO, town-Darthe is very clearly town.

Here, it hasn't happened yet.

Vote: Darthe

Did you catch up with the game? Have you got anything else to say?

[Grimgroove]

If anythings is surprising, it's that there's not more support for his lynch. I don't see much of that massive vote support you're talking about.

[Grimgroove]

Beazu said something retarded.

No.

[Grimgroove]

Could you respond to 682 please?

[Grimgroove]

Why oh why is MS filled with apathetic mafia players? Do you all just spam multiple games until you find something you like?

Agreed very much with that.
I won't be part of a lynch on Baezu though.
Will get into your other reply later.

[Grimgroove]

@ Darthe, to your 694 (not going to quote it, it's a bit too long for that and I see no ponit of a quote war).

First thing I need to say: Stranger = BP. If you were very suspect of BP, there's no reason to be null on Stranger. I think it was brought up by someone before, but if your top-suspect replaced out, it's quite scummish not to be aware of that.

This part I have to quote because it shows the way how you are so terribly wrong about your reasons for voting Baezu, and how you are probably misrepping her on purpose:

However, literally attacking someone for something as you yourself do it is not the kind of illogical belief that I ever allow to go on without repercussion in a game.

This is NOT what Baezu did. Look at your own post when voting her:

Elyse, why do you have a problem with me doing the same stuff you're doing?

Why does that make me scum? I have voted on 3 people this entire game. You've had your votes on: Kattaze, gooner, Slandaar, reddragon, and me; you've FoS'd future (post #155). Perhaos the people you haven't voted are your scum buddies.
\

Fuck, I really wanted you to be town. How did this drivel make its way into a case? How can you admit to doing one thing and simultaneously continue to accept it in yourself while condemning it in another? Worse, using that as a point against them.

I want this day to end, I want info, and it is tiring to watch continue.

unvote vote: beazu

This is not the same thing. Baezu didn't vote someone for doing the same thing as he did, he voted someone who blamed him for doing something she did herself. In fact,h e's doing toh er what you later claim to do to him. Except that you're lying. You really should be lynched.

This is exactly why I wanted you to explain in detail why you voted on Baezu: to make it as clear as possible to anyone your reasons are very, very flawed. Like I said before: the switch from "Baezu is not an option" to "Lynch Baezu" after one post by her is not backed up in a satisfactory way, despite the switch being close to 180 degrees (even though you now claim you had doubts about her before, you did say she was not an option. You can't weasle your way out of that, yet you try).

About my play being derp: it quite possibly is. But I have no way to know if your comments are honest or if you're just scum trying to make me doubt my reads. I propose we move this subject to the post-game discussions, where I will be open to any crticisms on my play. It's obvious I'm still learning.

[Grimgroove]

Ztife and chernobylcitybus will be prodded. If they do not post before the deadline they will be replaced during the night.

@mod: not meaning to question your authority, but isn't it more customary to replace players during the phase we're currently in, and extend the deadline until they are? Two flaking players in a field of generally inactive ones is a considerable handicap for progress.

[Grimgroove]

@EVERYONE:

GET YOUR ASSES IN HERE!!!
Damn. 1 day until deadline and everyone decides to evaporate?

[Grimgroove]

Not surprised.
Anyone who's town and currently voting Baezu should switch votes.

[Grimgroove]

Townreads are good, but voting is better.

[Grimgroove]

@Elyse: Would you prefer a no-lynch over a Darthe-lynch?

[Grimgroove]

Miss Stranger's case is bs. So what if someone accuses someone else of doing something they did? Why would scum do that? They wouldn't bring attention to something they did as scummy, whereas town would take the risk to get a scumread lynched.

By the way, this adresses the case Baezu had on you, and which you are now trying to dismiss.
It does not, however, adress Darthe's case on Baezu in any way. And it's Darthe's case that is scummy, it's Darte's case that is relevant right now, and it's Darthe's case you're now not discussing.

Some people are purposely mixing things up.

And people say I was dreaming things up when talking about a Ztife-Elyse-Darthe triangle. Look at them!

[Grimgroove]

As chernobylcitybus did not deem it fit to let us know:

Baezu is at L-1.

(Darthe, who should have been lynched by now, is at L-2)

[Grimgroove]

VOTE: PeregrineV

[Grimgroove]

IMO, town-Darthe is very clearly town.

Here, it hasn't happened yet.

This is my reason.
Peregrine claims he recognizes town-Darthe through meta.
Darthe was town.
Peregrine didn't notice.
Peregrine lied.

[Grimgroove]

I checked peregrine. No result. What does that mean?

Why did you check Peregrine? He was not among your scumreads.

[Grimgroove]

Scum roleblocked you or you're lying.

It would be best if I went another day without explaining but I will if necessary.

VOTE: RedDragon

You will definitely have to explain it today as far as I'm concerned.

VOTE: Elyse

[Grimgroove]

I would've killed you/Slandaar/Grim probably.

I found that whole defense very cringeworthy, but especially this stuck out. Why, as town, would you be thinking in terms of who you'd kill.
And why those three?
And why the hell not nachomamma? Half of this game was you having quote wars with him.

[Grimgroove]

If anyone's claim is questionable, it's your's, miss odd-night-cop-no-result-on-Pere-JK-I-was-high.

Why did you go and do that?
Now I have to leave my vote on you.

This stylish summary of Baezu's claim is a missrep.

"Odd night cops" are not all that special. It is a common enough role, but uncommon enough to assume a newbie like Baezu wouldn't come up with it herself.
No result on Peregrine yes, which shouldn't be surprising as she was probably blocked. If I had been Baezu I woàuld have claimed "even night cop" to have scum confused,b ut again, she's a newbie. But I find her claim believable.
JK: Misrep. Baezu did get a "no result", and that had nothing to do with being high. She tried to check Slandaar instead of Peregrine.

The only thing I don't like are her investigative choices.

Elyse's claim can't really be checked tonight for the same reasons Baezu's claim couldn't be checked. I'm always very wary of millers.
But, why would she ask not to be checked, if she knew the mafia had a blocker? She could just pretend to welcome the visit, but secretly have Baezu blocked.

So actually, despite my intentions when starting to post this, I'll be removing my vote.

How many votes does Red Dragon have currently? I agree he should come out of the woodwork again. And time for chernobylcitybus to state his reasons.

[Grimgroove]

UNVOTE:

[Grimgroove]

VOTE: PeregrineV

[Grimgroove]

The mod just informed me that I actually told him that I would investigate Slandaar.

Why would the Mod do this?

It would actually be interfering with the game.

The reason I was going to investigate him was because he was a null for me and I wanted to confirm or deny whether or not he's town. The mod just informed me that I actually told him that I would investigate Slandaar. Again, same reasoning for investigating him.

slandaar town

These are very pertinent points I think. I have to admit my strong townread on Baezu is wavering. There's only so much slack one should give to a newbie.

[Grimgroove]

I'd lynch Elyse in a heartbeat if it weren't for this:

Elyse's claim can't really be checked tonight for the same reasons Baezu's claim couldn't be checked. I'm always very wary of millers.

But, why would she ask not to be checked, if she knew the mafia had a blocker? She could just pretend to welcome the visit, but secretly have Baezu blocked.

Besides that, I find her claim bordering to the ridiculous and her behaviour very scummish.

But I don't want to make the same mistake I made with Darthe, where I (like you) didn't put enough value on the townish thing he did (the fakehammer).
This might be a very similar case. I see no reason why scum would issue the warning that Elyse issued. She knew she would end up having to explain it, basically amounting to the same thing as someone having her checked as scum. So why do this?

I guess you can bring in WIFOM, but somehow the warning seemed to come too naturally for such a farfetched plan.

[Grimgroove]

Fine. I'm a miller JOAT.

I have one track, one protection, and one vig shot.

I didn't want Baezu to check me because I appear guilty obviously and it would've been a waste. I used my protection on her.

WHHHHHHHHHHHHHHY? WHHHHHHY WHYYYYYYY/ Why did you just claim that you protected? Why would you do that?
Also, now we lose a cop and get no results. You shouldn't have claimed.

This is a very, very good point.

Why did you claim that night action Elyse?

[Grimgroove]

Except when there's a RB and my role is completely useless.

You see, it's these little things that make her town in my eyes.

[Grimgroove]

I believe Elyse.

Let's all vote Peregrine now.

Or Ztife.

Both are fine by me.

Maybe even Red Dragon, but a bit meh'ish about that one.

[Grimgroove]

Miss Stranger's 821 looks like a good start to get town's act together.
What we're lacking is a town leader, definitely now with Nachomamma gone.
I won't be one, Miss Stranger's criticism on me was entirely correct and doesn't put me in any position to steer sheep.
What's going on right now, though, is unacceptable from a Town PoV. There's no pressure on anyone anymore.

I think everyone agrees Miss Stranger is obvtown right? At least I think so.
Her reads are genuine, and on top of that, they make sense.

We should get pressure on her top scumreads. Peregrine or Ztife I don't care, but one of them needs a wagon behind them, sooner rather than later.

Elyse's claim story is a whole bunch of WIFOM. By the end of the day she'll have to prove herself one way or the other, either by tracking someone and giving the result the next day, or killing someone town agrees on. I'd personally prefer the first method. Don't know why she insisted on doing the vig first.

The massclaim idea of Slandaar, I think it's too early for that, but it's something we're bound to do later.

If anyone else wants to lead town, like Slandaar for instance, be my guest but right now the town-play has been a a bit of a joke (for which I do not deny partial responsability)

[Grimgroove]

Even if we assume that one of us is scum there are still 2 more scum in the rest of the people on this thread.

What gave you the idea there's 3 bad guys?

[Grimgroove]

VOTE: Red Dragon

(L-2)

[Grimgroove]

Should we also start agreeing on who should be targeted by Elyse? How are these tests normally done?

[Grimgroove]

VOTE: Red Dragon

I probably should have done this a long time ago

This is

L-1

.

Normally I'd say it's too soon for that, but meh, this game needs a boost.

But Baezu, Always, Always make it clear when your vote is an L-1 to avoid any derphammering.

Mod Edit: Removing unauthorized use of the mod's color.

[Grimgroove]

Should we also start agreeing on who should be targeted by Elyse? How are these tests normally done?

Actually no, given this, it's way too soon for L-1.

UNVOTE:

[Grimgroove]

How about I give you guys a three-person pool for my vig shot?

Sounds good!

[Grimgroove]

But that's not verifiable. Aside from scum, there's, according to recent specualtions about the set-up, only one other PR town-person who might be visitng someone in the coming night.
If Elyse ends up with a VT, it might as well being her guessing that someone is a VT not going anywhere, with really great odds.
If Elyse ends up with scum, scum will deny it.

Elyse, what vig-pool do you have in mind?

[Grimgroove]

No wait, don't answer that yet.

[Grimgroove]

What's wrong with vigging scum AND confirming Elyse as town in the process though? With a vig action you have more chances of catching scum, because even the ones that don't perform the kill can be caught this way.

I, for one, am not completely convinced Elyse is town, and though she naturally gets the benefit of the little doubt I have, if I'd end up in a LyLo with her not having proven her ability in some way, she would definitely still be a scum-candidate in my book.

I agree with your pool of 4ish That's actually quite reassuring.

[Grimgroove]

Sounds like a good plan to me.

Going to hop back on the Red Dragon-wagon. Things need to get movin' with respects to lynching some guy, preferably scum.

VOTE: Red Dragon

This is

L-1

(not using the purple this time, sorry mod, completely forgot about that that one time :p)

[Grimgroove]

Miss Stranger, Peregrine is nowhere near L-1 , but that intent to hammer did sound very dramatic. Props for that!

[Grimgroove]

If that was a reaction test, there's a vote count just two posts before yours, so I doubt he would have fallen for that.
Sorry anyway :p

[Grimgroove]

I haven't really seen you push anything since your arrival.
In 912 you commented on the read on you being wrong, but what do you make of Slandaar's read on PeregrineV? He's one of the main wagons of the day yet you haven't commented on him in any way.

[Grimgroove]

Miss Stranger

And reads are seeming a little too convenient.

What does that mean?

[Grimgroove]

In addition to the Darthe scumslip that never was (because he flipped town),

VOTE: PeregrineV

[Grimgroove]

You do recall being on the Darthe wagon yourself, right?

And even regardless of the hypocrisy, I find almost nothing scummier than blaming the people who tried scumhunting for mistakes they made. Darthe didn't make a scumslip, but his "switch" to Baezu was objectively speaking scummy as hell.

[Grimgroove]

Well if they role block her, that leaves you open right? Either way, it should be a good day tomorrow.

I understand why admitting a mistake would seem town, but I can also see a scum possibility of it being a fumbled plan and not a town slip.

Still, the situation is not dire enough to risk lynching a cop so I have to back off from this.

This post is terribly mechanical.

[Grimgroove]

I am agreeing with Baezu we should remain steadfast when it comes to lynching Peregrine or at the very least keep and build up the pressure on him.

[Grimgroove]

Read from this post to Chernobyl's post in 805, you will see lucky is scum.

Everyone else who posts bar sunny who proddodges talks about the claim(s) Chernobyl doesn't. The reason this is so bad is because this is something as town you want to discuss and figure out. He left everyone else to figure out what to do with the claim(s) and that isn't town.

Lynch Lucky please.

That's not very nice.

Grim, Baezu, I agree with that theory partially. Yes scum would want to switch the wagon when it gets close but they do it when it's close to lynching a buddy or a target that they strategically want dead later. Eager town like to switch wagons when their ADD kicks in and they see something shiny (scummy) somewhere else.

I was only agreeing with Baezu as far as the Peregrine-lynch was concerned. I don't think Slandaar is being scummy, but like you said, eager town.

Peregrine's claim is convincing enough I'd say, at least for now. It's not the kind of claim that would allow him to stick around till the end of the game in case he's lying. I don't exclude the possibility he might be lying, but we'll find out soon enough in case he does.

VOTE: Lucky

Partially sheeping Slandaar, partially because I really didn't like most of his latest posts, especially 963.

[Grimgroove]

First of all, don't try to give me this "newer player"-stuff. I have seen you also tried getting some goodwill for replacing in, but neither being a replacement nor being a newer player means you aren't scum. That's one thing I already find quite scummy.

About the other post:

Well if they role block her, that leaves you open right? Either way, it should be a good day tomorrow.

I understand why admitting a mistake would seem town, but I can also see a scum possibility of it being a fumbled plan and not a town slip.

Still, the situation is not dire enough to risk lynching a cop so I have to back off from this.

The first paragraph shows uncalled for optimism concerning the following night, on top of you being overly intent on showing us how happy you are about this wonderful prospect.

The second paragraph is a textbook scumtell I'd say, insisting on seeing one side of a discussion on one side of the comma, but on the other side of the comma not committing to that opinion and saying the opposite, resulting in an overall feeling of fluff. I also don't see how the thing after the comma would work. What kind of fumbled plan did you have in mind?

The third paragraph is bad as well. Not wanting to lynch someone who claimed a cop at this point almost goes without saying, insisting on this point makes you seem too eager to appear town. And you saying "you need to back off" was the thing that rubbed me wrongly the most, but also the thing I can't really explain adequately. It feels like you're simultaneously overemphasizing the pressure you put on Baezu, while also befreinding her by showing the utmost respect by using the phrase "back off". It sounds too modest in a way. I don't like it.

[Grimgroove]

Instead of "probably" X shot doc, why don't we ask him instead? Don't say bye to me yet, I have three more people to piss off before I'm dead.

This has got nothing to do with pissing people off. You didn't piss me off. I'm not pissed off. You seem like a nice person. A nice person who drew scum.
No need to take this to the emotional plane. It's called an Appeal to Emotion, and while town does it also, I consider it scummish if not executed in the rght way.

Concerning grim. First paragraph, I'm not allowed to be optimistic about the future? I don't understand your complaint. Do you want me to be strict and business like rather that have fun playing this game? If happiness and sarcasm become banned here I am deleting my account right now.

Of course I want you to have fun. I surely hope my opinion is not standing in the way of your enjoyment, otherwise I am deleting my account right now.
See how these AtE's work?
It has got nothing to do with having to be "'businesslike". If anything, your optimism sounded too businesslike and mechanical, like I said before. omparable to a fake smile when receiving a shitty gift. You know you're supposed to be happy about something, so you try very hard to portray that, but by thinking about it and actively trying, youmake your true sentiments clear.
What does sarcasm have to do with it? When were you being sarcastic?

You are totally right about that second paragraph though, indecisiveness should be punished.

VOTE: lucky2u

Very nice touch of drama. Doesn't sway me, this isn't Hollywood.
Indecisiveness can be townish as well as scummish, but in your case I'm going for the latter, mainly because the part after the comma made too little sense, making it seem like you were too intent on showing objectivity and too afraid of sticking to a read/opinion, thus having to come up with something farfetched in order to allow you to be this wishywashy.

Your third point however is again non sense. I hate the appearing town logic many people have on this site. Of course I want to appear town, I AM town. I actively avoid trying to appear scum. So far my track record as town proves I am doing it badly.

I disagree. Town doesn't care about appearing town, because they are town. There's a certain belief that this alignment will shine through the actions. They don't feel the need to say stuff that normally go without saying, like not wanting to lynch a cop. Scum wants to take easy opportunities to appear town by stating such Obvious things, and I think that's what you just did.
Sorry to hear you seem to be doing badly. I'm not exactly a veteran myself, but I'm more than willing to give my view on your play post-game.

Don't worry, you'll see when I flip.

IF you flip. Like you said yourself, you're not lynched yet.

Pro-tip: Now is not the time to stick to defending yourself. If you're town, continue the scumhunt and chip in on the discussions about Peregrine and others.
Pro-tip 2: Don't self-vote as town.

[Grimgroove]

Ztife, could you give your reads on people?

[Grimgroove]

What are your thoughts on Lucky?

[Grimgroove]

Intent to hammer.

[Grimgroove]

Actually, I don't see the point in waiting.

VOTE: PeregrineV

[Grimgroove]

Massclaim can't hurt. And the suggestion is coming from obvtown Slandaar, so I advise everyone to go with it or face severe scrutiny.

[Grimgroove]

I like Shamrock a lot. Much better than Nachpappa.
This pretty much makes this a clear-cut case for me: Ztife, Red Dragon and Lucky2u are the scumbutts.

Sounds too easy? Maybe it is, but until shown otherwise I don't thinkwe should make it too difficult for ourselves.

I'm surprised about Shamrock's slight scumread on Miss Stranger though, considering how they think and behave almost exactly the same way.

[Grimgroove]

The massclaim should still happen though, even if just to prevent any further derps.

[Grimgroove]

In fact, where has grim gone to?

What the fuck?
SunnyDays is conftown. If you can't see that, it's because you don't want to see it.

[Grimgroove]

Sorry to see you go Miss Stranger! Hope all will be well.

What the fuck?
SunnyDays is conftown. If you can't see that, it's because you don't want to see it.

Do you understand what conftown means?

Conftown, obvtown, same shmifference. SunnyDays townslipped hard.

I find you 1057 very bad. Your reasons to vote me are petty and I really did not like the allusion to me trying to slip under the radar by asking "where I've gone to".

I do have a notification in this regard, which will hopefully not prove to be a problem:

@Mod

: I'll be V/LA starting from tomorrow Tuesday the 30th until Thursday, possibly Friday the 9th of August, so a bit more than a week. Normally I'll have some internet access during this time, but no guarantee. I'm hoping not having to be replaced, for myself but also because this game already had to face enough problems in this regard, but if my prolonged possible absense is a problem I apologize in advance and will face force-replacement, no questions asked.


Very tempted to vote Ztife actually. Will be back later today to see if stuff has evolved, but I'd like to put my vote out at least somewhere before going on V/LA.

[Grimgroove]

If I can still play, I'm back. Reading up now. Just got back from traveling and had no internet access.

[Grimgroove]

It seems as if I haven't missed a thing. And I'm still top poster after my complete inactivty Congrats on the latest lynch though.
Too bad I wasn't part of the Ztife lynch. I was certain I had placed a vote on him before leaving but I had forgotten to do it.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p5165344

I haven't seen any reasons to change my views from above. Lucky2u made himself even scummier with that hammer which could not be more obvious when it coems to a vote being a bus.

The Stupendous vs Slandaar thing is not good for town, since I really feel they are both town.

CDB replacing Red Dragon hasn't changed my views on that slot in the least.

VOTE: Lucky2u

[Grimgroove]

I just saw the mod was asking for my replacement in the Replacement-topic, hope I didn't break any rules by posting here anyway.
If you haven't found a replacement I am naturally available to take up my old spot

[Grimgroove]

Ok, I'm completely back, feels good

I would want this or Slandaar lynched today. Slandaar's been leading the team around by the leash and hasn't ended up doing ANYTHING helpful for us.

He's the one who noticed your townslip.
People call it obvious now, but it wasn't.
What you're saying is that you want to lynch him because he's townleader, which I simply cn't agree with.

Going to dig up what I had on lucky2u before, my post with my vote on him looks lazier than it is.

[Grimgroove]

@Slandaar: What do you make of Ztife's tunnel on BP (who is now Stupendous Man, howdy neighbour!) during the first dayphase? If you really see Stupendous Man as scum, I guess you consider Ztife's move a bus. Re-read Ztife's posts and I think you'll find that to be a stretch.

Going to look into Ztife's posts again as well, see if there's any associatiotive tells we can pull formt hem. Surprised nobody else bothered donig this, I thought it was the first thing to do after the first scum flipped.

If you want to see what I don't like about Lucky, start reading from post 973.

[Grimgroove]

ChannelDeliBird

[Grimgroove]

Wasn't expecting that. You mind sharing your insights on your neighbors from the private thread? Do you think there is a Scum in there?

Upon re-reading: His "wasn't expecting that" sounds incredibly forced. Actually, the entire post does.
Hmm. Maybe this means he already knew about the neighbourhood, but it could also be just scum trying to act natural on a new piece of information, and in trying to do so, failing.
My townread on both of my neighbours is too strong at this point to entrtain any other idea, SunnyDays is town because of the slip, and Shamrock... I remeber I liked Shamrock for his 1038. Doesn't read like a bus, as opposed to CDB's 1096.

Thus POE also leads me to CDB (see also post 1045). Should look into his role in the Ztife lynch more carefully,b ut it looks like a perfectly plausible bus to me. He was promising material on another person but couldn't be bothered, and just set his target on someone who he knew was gonig to flip scum at a time where CDB himself needed the towncred badly. The fact he realized this is evident through him aplogizing for RD's behavior.

[Grimgroove]

It is possible CDB or Shamrock came in and just bussed Ztife who was already dead. I have been waiting for both of them to show they can produce similar levels of content today and neither have managed it (yet) as obviously making a good case on scum is easy when you are scum because you are making a case on someone you know is scum, making cases on people you know are town is the hard part.

But I think more likely scum is just Lucky/Stu and that quote you quoted is one reason.

For Shamrock this is different though. When he made his case against Ztife in 1038 there was no considerable pressure on him yet. also recall that Miss Stranger upon entering this game also strongly and openly agreed with Ztife being scum. That would make two slots supposedly bussing their partner. BP also showed strong agreement at the time I made my first arguments against Ztife, and you yourself acknowledged that Shamrock's case against Ztife was genuinely good. Alsop Shamrock's latest posts convince me he's town.

I think we all agree on Lucky2u being scum, he doesn't even retort to anything anymore himself. CDB is the other one. Lynch them and town wins this game.

[Grimgroove]

Wasn't expecting that. You mind sharing your insights on your neighbors from the private thread? Do you think there is a Scum in there?

Upon re-reading: His "wasn't expecting that" sounds incredibly forced. Actually, the entire post does.
Hmm. Maybe this means he already knew about the neighbourhood, but it could also be just scum trying to act natural on a new piece of information, and in trying to do so, failing.
My townread on both of my neighbours is too strong at this point to entrtain any other idea, SunnyDays is town because of the slip, and Shamrock... I remeber I liked Shamrock for his 1038. Doesn't read like a bus, as opposed to CDB's 1096.

Thus POE also leads me to CDB (see also post 1045). Should look into his role in the Ztife lynch more carefully,b ut it looks like a perfectly plausible bus to me. He was promising material on another person but couldn't be bothered, and just set his target on someone who he knew was gonig to flip scum at a time where CDB himself needed the towncred badly. The fact he realized this is evident through him aplogizing for RD's behavior.

Exactly how does it sound "forced"? It's text on a screen. You may have read it in your mind as forced, but that was genuine reaction from me because I've never played a normal game with neighbors in it.

How many normal games have you played?

Could you explain your vote on StupendousMan, aside from him being an obvious counterwagon to your own?

[Grimgroove]

What do you mean by "difference"? I don't think Red Dragon was bussing BP there. In fact, he was trying to draw attention away from Ztife by trying to focus on BP. The post you just brought up actually points to Red Dragon being scum with Ztife.

@mod

:I have another V/LA coming up, last one for a long while so nothing to be concerned about, and also relatively short compared to the last one :p, starting from Thursday 15th until Monday 19th. DEFINITELY will be able to post Monday evening again.

My vote on Lucky2u stays, but I agree with Slandaar that it would be neat if CDB would post, more specifically his case against Shamrock.

[Grimgroove]

Back in town. Catching up.

[Grimgroove]

Need to give due attention to Slandaar's posts tomorrow, just got back from a trip and too tired right now.

Some thought:

Shamrock's L-1 is ludicrous. Needless to say that any hammerer will be lynched tomorrow. But I think we needn't fear that,b ecause as far as I can tell, both of the remaining scum are already on it.

Lucky is still scum in my eyes. He's only AtE'd with post-flip talk and voted on another wagon in order to save his own hide.

CDB is the most probably second scum, also through PoE. The rest of you are all looking pretty town to me. CDB's "defense" has been simple flaking. I need to read more in detail for that tomorrow though, so right now I feel more comfortable in leaving my vote on Lucky.

It's like Daft Punk tells us:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxp0PFoIdmU

It's time for us to get Lucky

[Grimgroove]

I don't really see the point of this exercise. What I'm going to do is arrange the thoughts I have with all of you off the top of my head. I'll try and base a listing on that, but I would like to ask SunnyDays what he would like to achieve through these lists.

Lucky2u

This one is my main scumread. For several reasons I've already pointed out earlier, and for reasons pointed out by others as well. I will re-iterate them at some point, but like I said, this is at the top of my head, so going into detail doesn't make much sense. His play just feels wrong in so many ways. Also, given my reads on others, I just can't see a two-man scumteam in this group that doesn't contain him.
The main point of today though should not be to lynch lucky2u. Eventhough he should be the lynch of today eventually (the man is obvscum, even his last list doesn't make sense, why on earth would he lynch himself over me? Why does he even include himself in that list in the first place? He's trying to play mindtricks, and at this stage this shows his scum mindset imo. Lynching him will not lose us the game, of that I am convinced), BUT we first must try to find his remaining scumbuddy before ending this stage, so that the next day's LyLo can be tackled with a bit more confidence for whoever remains.
Looking at Ztife's and Lucky's past interactions might give us something. I don't think we'll get anything out of Lucky now. I'm sure he's been properly coached by his scumbud during the last nightphase.

SunnyDays

As StupendousMan will be able to confirm, during the night, in our neighborhood, I expressed sudden doubt about SunnyDays. I felt as if he slipped away from my attention too easily. Because Future (his predecessor) was my main scumread for a long time, and not without reason. The townslip felt like an easy way for him to shake off any bad attention.
BUT I looked again at the time where this happened. Not only does his 287 feel like a genuine townslip every time I read, so do the first posts after that. In fact it's a big townslip-fest. Not only did he claim in such a way that it cannot be a lie (or it would be an extremely clever one), he also thought he was hammered (which I believe he really did, again, if he didn't, it would be extremely clever). And look at his reaction after he was supposedly hammered. He was still upholding his innocence and his disappointment felt very sincere. Now, I guess some people are just jerks during twilight and still lie then, but two events to look very very much like townslips are just impossible to ignore. And in all honesty, most of his other play also looks pretty town. Shame about the comparatively low activity.
I'm writing down SunnyDays as conftown. Looking at his preference list I am a bit dissappointed, as I was hoping I'd be able to work in tandem with him, but it doesn't look like this will be the case.
SunnyDays, you should explain your reads and give me something to work with.

And now for the dilemma: Shamrock and StupendousMan. But I need to finish a report for work before lunch, so I'll get back to you on those two later during the day.

My list:
1: Lucky
2-3: Shamrock or Stupendous
4: SunnyDays

[Grimgroove]

No matter how you turn it, there's been some serious bussing going on between scum regardless of who flips how. And willingness to lynch Lucky I don't see as a towntell at this point anyway. It is so Obvious that whoever his scumpartner is will be more than happy to sacrifice him right now. That's what makes this so difficult.

Part of the problem I have with deciding between Shamrock and Stupendous is the fact that each slot has been occupied by three people:

thegooner: scum (I don't remember why at this point, I remember writing down reasons at some point so I can easily dig them up)
Nachopappa: null (was acting like a loon 95% of the time)
Shamrock: very town (his attacks on both Lucky and Ztife)

BP: town (Ztife's attack on BP)
Miss Stranger: very town (Miss Stranger's attack on Ztife)
StupendousMan: leaning scum (some of the stuff he said just feel wrong, the way he's been interacting with Lucky most notably, and also in our neighbourhood he gives me the feeling he wants to direct me to any lynch that isn't him, when I was showing some suspicion towards SunnyDays he seemed very eager to follow me along in them, but when I rethought that, he was equally eager to drop the idea as well).

MY dilemma is now: which do I make count the most: the reads on the people currently in the slot, or the reads on the people who were there before.

[Grimgroove]

and I'm not voting lucky due to listed preferences. That leaves Stupendous and you. It's process of elimination, at least currently, and it's founded in things I believe are legitimate.

?
Can you explain this? You're not voting Lucky due to your listed preferences (

1.

but gave no reasons for those preferences, I would like to hear those) but when looking at your preferences, you least of all want to lynch StupendousMan, so

2.

How does that "leave Stupendous and Shamrock"?

3.

State (or re-state) those things you believe are legitimate please. Now is the time to be clear, thorough and acting on the principle of full-disclosure.

[Grimgroove]

In order: Shamrock, Stu, SunnyDays, Lucky, Grim

Lucky, I want you to explain each one of these in-depth, especially why you put Grim after yourself.

That wouldn't make sense unless he's your partner.

You see, again you look scummy. Like I said before, Lucky is clearly trying to play mindtricks with that move. WIFOM bullshit. Why the hell are you playing along with that bolded afterthought?

[Grimgroove]

First off, I'm writing a different post right now, but you're referencing a discrepancy between my opinion prior to and after the lists were posted, which was explicitly stated when I said "listed preferences," and I don't like that you're twisting it around when that section of 1308 was in obvious reference to the lists anyway. I was saying that it left SM and Shamrock not in that they were my top lynch choices but that based on the current PoE I had presented they were the two left as of that point in my explanation.

What? Are you telling me to stop making you look bad? I just called you conftown ffs.
I'm trying to make sense of what you were saying. I wanted you to explain the discrepancy (which you admit to being there).
I just didn't get what you were saying.
In fact, I still don't.

[Grimgroove]

to discredit your excuse for his scumbuddy being willing to bus him

You're the only one not willing to lynch him. In your viewpoint this "excuse" is undiscreditable by definition.

I'm going to go ahead and play this in your PoV for a bit, assuming I could be scum and LUcky is not, then you have the following:

Ztife attacked BP.
I attacked Ztife.
Shamrock attacked Ztife.

The above three are FACTS. They are in the topic. Bussing happened. There's no way around that.

[Grimgroove]

Re 1318:

You're making the mistake of just looking at this phase. Don't only look at my play today. This game is 53 pages long. Shamrock, Stupendous and also myself knew the pressure would be on Lucky given the previous stages. Stating Lucky as your top lynch-preference is in no way a towntell, nor a scumtell. It's just following common sense, something a scumbuddy is now forced to do in order not to stick out. You can afford walking beside the line because you're basically conftown, I'm sticking with Lucky out of conviction. One of the other two is being opportunistic.

Re: 1319:

I just don't understand you: you're mixing up lists, preferences, you mention altering reads. Let's just make this simple and state your current lynchpreferences, and let's go from there.

[Grimgroove]

Associatively Shamrock is scum. I posted a case why he was scum yesterday. If you're confident that I'm town and you're town, then associatively Shamrock would HAVE to be scum, who even cares about the second scum player right now? If you think it's lucky then perfect, we lynch Shamrock, I get nightkilled, and you, Lucky, and SM go into lylo, you and Lucky crossvote and SM has an aneurysm while I spasm in the dead QT. It's a fairytale ending

Given I'm convinced Lucky is scum and that you're town, there are two possibilities prevalent in my mind about who the scumteam could be:

Lucky and Stupendous
Lucky and Shamrock

You didn't say why the first one couldn't be possible.

Maybe I am wrong about Lucky, in that case it's Stupendous-Shamrock. In that case, we're fucked because I don't see myself changing my mind about Lucky.

[Grimgroove]

Nachomamma is not infallible. He was wrong about Elyse, Baezu and Peregrine. Of course he's a good player, but something tells me that if he made additional wrong reads about people still alive right now, scum would be the first to kill him off early and try to use his reads on them as some token of trustworthiness. I prefer to make up my own mind.
In my view, the Nachomamma-Nachopappa conversation is null. Maybe parts of it go over my head, or under it, I don't know, but the way I see Nachopappa's behavior is someone able to get into a certain "zone", in this case the zone being him fooling around with Nachomamma. There's a big sense of drama inthere that obfuscates things, and while the obfuscation may be unintentional and organically created through the having of a good time, it can also be intentional. The caps, the double triple quadruple posts, a big scene. But in no way telling of Nachopappa's alignment.

But I do like you though. Ever since you came in you resolutely went for Ztife, and later for Lucky, scumreads I happen to agree with and have done so for a long time. Stupendous has been much more wibblywobbly. I also don't like how Stupendous has avoided me today, ever since I expressed my doubts about him.

[Grimgroove]

Shamrock, could you point me to some games where you were scum?

[Grimgroove]

I just ISO'd Miss Stranger and have given her too much credit. I was a bit blinded a bit by what she said in the neighborhood QT, quite possibly grooming me. The follow-up of her agreement with my reads was quite selective and well-timed. Even though she distanced from Ztife, she never went in as full and hard as I had remembered it, and as Shamrock has done.

Ztife's attack on BP is something that still bothers me, but if there's been any bussing going on, I'd say it was there. Ztife must have known the arguments against BP at the time wouldn't be too convincing for a lynch anyway, but when one of them flipped they could use that interaction to their advantage.

Going to have a good look at it again for good measure, and going to look into what exactly it was I didn't like about gooner.

My reads have changed somewhat in the dilemma-hexagon:

thegooner: scum (I don't remember why at this point, I remember writing down reasons at some point so I can easily dig them up

looking into him next

)
Nachopappa: null (was acting like a loon 95% of the time ^

I honestly believe that's all I'll be getting from his participation here. Nachomamma's read bears very little meaning for me here, but I do try to take it into account

)
Shamrock: very town (his attacks on both Lucky and Ztife)

BP: leaning town (Ztife's attack on BP,

this attack could possible have been a bus, considering the arguments were too weak toa ctually get support for a lynch, but BP's behavior in general rang pretty town to me, also in the neighborhood

)
Miss Stranger: leaning scum (Miss Stranger's attack on Ztife

Upon ISO'ing her I noticed there was actually no such thing, just some mentions of her thinking Ztife was scum and agreeing with my case on her, but no real attack. Slandaar's felt it when she was there, but I was too groomed so I largely ignored Slandaar's warnings.

)
StupendousMan: scum (some of the stuff he said just feel wrong, the way he's been interacting with Lucky most notably, and also in our neighbourhood he gives me the feeling he wants to direct me to any lynch that isn't him, when I was showing some suspicion towards SunnyDays he seemed very eager to follow me along in them, but when I rethought that, he was equally eager to drop the idea as well,

in addition to him avoiding direct interaction with me lately, I'm getting a stronger scumlean

).

[Grimgroove]

@Grim- What do you think of the quote below?

Sunny/grim strikes me as a probable scum team, which is the only reason why I think both could be scum ATM. Slandaar leans scum for his plays and N1 NK, but I always found it hard to understand his logic which could make him seem scummier than he actually is.

It looks like Ztife's scumreads were people who were town (Slandaar and Sunny and maybe you). So I'm thinking that maybe Shamrock (or whoever it was at the time) wasn't included because they're partners. What are your thoughts on this? I suppose it could be distancing between the two of you, but I'm more inclined to believe you're town.

That's mostly WIFOM. It could mean anything. I think a more sensible and common scum-tactic is to mix it up a bit, have one scumpartner as a townread, and the other as a scumread, or throw in a null somewhere. But there's no way of being sure what Ztife's line of thinking was here. Note that you weren't included either, so why are you trying to use it as an argument against Shamrock if it is also valid against you?

Please reply to 1313 and my read on you in the post above.

[Grimgroove]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=22984

The reason I asked by the way was to check if you're a "busser". In this game you've bussed your scumpartner theplague a bit, but not in the same way you attacked Ztife in this topic. In fact, the bus on theplague looks more akin to Miss Stranger's attacks on Ztife.


I'm getting more and more comfortable with the idea of Lucky2u and StupendousMan being the remaining scum.

SunnyDays, judging by your preference-list your views are diamtrical to mine, but I'm hoping you're giving my thought-flow a serious read here. I reckon it's quite convincing but please point me to fallacies or disagreements so that we can work this out.

[Grimgroove]

While I continue to look through old posts to make sure of what I think I already know,

What happened to this? I haven't seen any results of this read-through.