Mini 1452 - Inevitable Mafia (Game Over)
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BROseidon Expert Marxman
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Absolutely maybe.
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DBK already covered why I took it as a joke, hence a joke response.
Now on a more serious note, am I the only one bothered by:
In post 37, TMTOLBTWNTOF wrote:
Way to throw a pal under the bus then, broDoes Bo Know wrote:The only players I know in this game are Jmo and TMT.-
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It's similarly a joking response to the fact that gorckat calling RC town had no grounding at that point. Do you see any substantial difference in how DBK responded and how I responded that would potentially justify JMO for jumping on me but not him?In post 58, Rob14 wrote:BRO - I fail to see the relevance of DBK's #23, if there is one. DBK's #23 was basically "No, you have to explain your read." JMO not reacting to that is not at odds with anything he's done this game.
Is this referring to his post 37, or all of his posts?In post 58, Rob14 wrote:That's much worse than TMT's actions, which are definitely anti-town
What makes you think this is manipulation and not just not properly comprehending Rob's argument?In post 63, ThAdmiral wrote:Apart from the above I don't like the way you are trying to manipulate rob in to voting for tmt.
DCLXVI improperly representing Rob's argument and sheeping onto letters as a result seems too reckless to make me think that it's scum motivated. Don't like JMO's shitty meta argument and AtE, though. Very defensive.
VOTE: JMO-
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No, this is AtE:In post 67, jmo16mla wrote:Telling him he has shit reads on me is an AtE?
@Rob: What about his post seemed serious, though? I read it as a joke, which is why I'm confused as to why you interpreted it as serious (and why you assign this reading of his response to JMO in your points against him).In post 60, jmo16mla wrote:Or, il post tomorrow when I'm sober. That woul probably help.-
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What I'm saying is that I don't understand why you think that "no u" is a serious response. Seems like just as much of a joke as my "absolutely maybe," in that both are joking ways of saying "What you are saying does not appear to be grounded in any sort of reality." That's why I'm confused as to why you are NOT using it in your case against JMO.
And the reason I called JMO saying that he was drunk an AtE is that drunkeness is a commonly used excuse to absolve one's self of blame for one's actions. "Oh, I said something offensive/did something bad? I didn't mean it b/c I was drunk."-
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I am not in any hurry to lynch a mason claim. That would be really fucking stupid. If we have reason to suspect that the claim is false later, we can lynch then. Fuck, a mason coming forward and saying "he is not a mason" would be worth it if this were a fake claim; I'd trade a mason for scum.
I'm not sure how I feel about JMO defending DCL, but RC's meta argument about him getting angry seems sound.
TMT is still scummy. 0% scumhunting, 100% defensiveness.
VOTE: TMTOLBTWNTOF
What do you make of gorckat being on the DCL wagon?In post 127, CooLDoG wrote:wow... what? You bread crumb with a question about an rvs thing with gorcat? what? So you claimed on page 2 that you are masons with gorcat so on page 8 you could be "cleared". What the heck?-
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Does this typically happen day 1 or on say day 4 or 5?In post 152, Does Bo Know wrote:@BRO: I've witnessed multiple scum jump on a Mason wagon because "the Mason claim didn't make any sense." Scum want Masons dead because it can link them to the other Mason that may claim later in the game, and they get rid of a PR instead of a VT through "convincing" arguments.-
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Okay, that's good to know. I think that affects the likelihood of a fakeclaim, as it would probably be easier for scum to claim that a mason claim is a fakeclaim on someone who has done something very scummy and if other power roles have been claimed (and thus a doctor or cop fakeclaim isn't an option). Still, day 2 is a lot earlier than I would have expected for a play like that to have been attempted.-
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Okay, now I'm comfortable taking DCL's claim at face value. Obviously will reconsider if information pops up that contradicts what he's given, but what he's given makes sense.
Really hate what RC did there. Makes 0 fucking sense in terms of town motivation, but also little sense in terms of scum motivation since scum should not be willing to so blatantly trade one person for a mason. Same thing with me wanting to think Cooldog is town - the move is just too blatantly idiotic for me to believe that scum would pull something like that. Does anyone have scum meta on either Cooldog or RC? Do they tend to play very boldly in the day phase as scum?
Like my vote on letters still, and the thing that Yates quoted just further supports scumletters.
@Rob, Cooldog, TMT: Do you still want DCL to reveal a name for his mason partner, or are you fine with what he's given us?
@MOD: Can we get updated vote counts at the top of each page, or an up to date vote count post? Thank you-
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1) Makes it easier for scum to try to weed out other power roles early. Scum can get a mason N1 if they want either way at this point, but if they want to get a stronger PR, not having the second mason claim results in there being a chance that they would still hit a mason.
2) Makes it easier for scum to target masons once masons become a threat. Masons are stronger as the game progresses, because conftown becomes scarier when there are fewer players; scum have fewer players to set up mislynches against. Thus, at a certain point scum do want masons gone, and having the second mason known makes it more likely for this to occur should they not accidentally hit him early.
Tl;dr giving scum more control over when they get the masons killed is bad.-
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Okay, um, wow.
We are not lynching a claimed mason, when, most notably NOBODY HAS COUNTERCLAIMED MASON THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE DCL. Mason is not an unusual role. If there were masons in play and DCL weren't one, we'd already have a counterclaim because who the fuck wouldn't make that trade. Yes, there could just not be masons in play, but that is something we can bring up later should information come in that indicates DCL is lying (ie, the entire group of people not on the DCL wagon at any point claim not mason/flip not mason).
Going on to the scum counterclaim point:
This line of reasoning is fine. It makes us more likely to hit scum at the lynch before lylo, and it limits the scum's options for their NK.In post 203, CooLDoG wrote:This leads to an interesting point that people are making... the situation that is presented goes as follows:
1) day before lylo mason partner claims
2) Scum counter claims mason
3) town lynches one of the two
4a) If flips town: lynch other in lylo
4b) If flips scum: we just lynched scum
The situation presents a condition where it seems like a mason claiming one day before lylo guarantees that one scum is lynched. But this is not accurate because it makes one fatal assumption that a scum team, that is playing optimally, will never do. That assumption is at point 2, a rational scum team would never, ever, counter claim mason in this situation, because it is certain that one of them will die. Instead the situation will for sure play out like this:
1) day before lylo mason partner claims
2) scum say nothing
3) town lynches non mason
4a) lynch flips scum: yay we got scum, mason dies at night.
4b) lynch town: yay you just lost the mason to a night kill and lynched a townie, welcome to lylo.
this line of reasoning should be completely disregarded and purged from all talk about the masons.
Also, it's not like scum have an unrestricted ability to claim mason. There was most likely scum, and anyone on the DCL lynch who claims mason is obviously lying. There are literally only 6 people in the game who could possibly be mason with DCL, since he can't be mason with himself and he got put to L-1.
1) Scum ideally don't want to hit masons N1. Masons are good NKs on mid-late nights, because they are huge problems in lylo but not huge threats early. Scum ideally want to hit information or protective roles earlier, before information roles can get information or protective roles can successfully protect people. Sure, killing a mason guarantees that scum've done better than hitting a VT, but also guarantees that any information roles are getting information.In post 203, CooLDoG wrote:1) scum will do that anyway with nigth kills. Also saves a random n1 power role nk. The pr night kill pool decreases naturally on its own, the mason claim is just an n1 protection. IF they decide to not kill the mason for aformentioned wifom reasons, then we have a smaller lynch pool. Your line of argument here falls through.
2) Actually it makes it dramatically fucking harder if DCL flips town. Because that person is basically 100% confirmed, making it nearly fucking impossible for scum to push a lynch for a mason partner claimed by a confirmed (via flip) mason. If dcl does NOT claim his partner right now, then we are introduced with a possible scum counter claim.. at which point we have a 50/50.. that is assuming the scum are stupid enough to counter claim mason at thsi stage in anyway.
2) I don't think you're getting my point. What I'm saying is that a 2nd mason claim now guarantees that we have no masons by the time masons become a useful thing to have, because scum will target the masons once the numbers start dwindling. A second mason claiming now means that it's very likely that the masons will get NK'd as the numbers dwindle. Also, if it's stupid for scum to counterclaim mason, why wouldn't you want them to make that move? A scum counterclaim on mason before lylo is dumb, so obviously we'd want the mason to step forward on the round before that. Just not now.
Also:
Because it's not WIFOM on a doctor which claimed mason to target. Also, again, why the fuck would scum ever counterclaim mason before lylo?In post 203, CooLDoG wrote:also, claiming mason name(s) now shifts the wifom to the scum. DO the town have a doctor? Should we kill the mason? Should we counter claim now? Claiming masons now resolves the situation early so we can analyze and get more information.-
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No. No. No no no no no no no no no.In post 236, RadiantCowbells wrote:In the case of you being mason, there is no benefit whatsoever to the withholding of your partner's identity, because if scum knows you're telling the truth, they'll kill you tonight and then your partner will function as a counterclaimable named townie; mostly useless. However, if you out your partner then you will still die tonight, but then we have a confirmed clear tomorrow to lead us.
Did you not read everything I posted about why he should not do this and why scum won't counterclaim the second mason slot unless the mason claims in LyLo?
Do you have any evidence of this from from their interactions, or is this from you having these two as your two highest scumreads?In post 236, RadiantCowbells wrote:@everyone else, stop letting DCL divert attention with the shitty wagon on me. Rob is also a strong contender for partner status, making DCL/Rob potentially two members of a 3 person scumteam. His responses to the pressure on him sucked elephant dick and he doesn't do anything for town except strut around playing passively while acting like his mason claim makes him confirmed town.-
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2/3 is bad? Wat?In post 244, CooLDoG wrote:no, because we need to know if there are masons. We don't want a 2/3 chance of hitting scum.
Which is why second mason claims BEFORE LYLO.In post 247, gorckat wrote:As scum, I would absolutely gamble, in a 4 v 3 LYLO, on having a scum bud claim. Get caught out and you are now gonna have a quick 3 v 2 day then go 2 v 1, texbook lylo. Not shabby.
@CoolDoG what is your opinion of TMT?
@TMT what is your opinion of CoolDoG?-
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If we have 3 mason claims we lynch the one that isn't a mason. At worst we get a 50% chance from 4 mason claims, with a successful lynch setting up the next day's lynch.In post 281, CooLDoG wrote:I meant town sorry. See if we let all of this drag out then we have th possibility of a 3 mason claims on the same day in which 2 will by right and one will be scum. Again, all of the wifom can be avoided by lynching dcl today.
Who says we have to? We can set a lynch timer (if neither mason is dead by day N, we lynch DCL), but then also set that as a time when an investigative role can come forward with an investigate on them, as well as all other results up until that point. Insta giant conftown block (and if we think it's 3 scum in that group fucking with cop+2 mason claims, we can lynch one to check and still walk away with a decently sized town block if it was legit, because the cop will be able to conftown multiple people)In post 282, gorckat wrote:"When do we lynch a living DCL/partner" is the question we need to answer today. If we are going to let DCL pass, are we going to hang him tomorrow? Day 3? If so, then we have let scum dictate the future of the game and we need to take that control back now and leave them unknowing of the future.-
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Yeah, already thought that slot was town, but Hoopla is super pro-town.
I hadn't thought of a mass-claim idea. I actually like it a lot, since we do already have the 2 PR claims.
Hoopla, why do you think that CoolDoG is town? It seems like a lot of what he's done is more scum-motivated than town motivated?-
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Go read my ISO. My previous vote had been on CoolDoG and you were at L-2.In post 455, TMTOLBTWNTOF wrote:
Genuine laugh, because you're already voting me.BROseidon wrote:VOTE: TMTOLBTWNTOF
I am fine with this lynch. Still unsure about CoolDoG, and nothing suggests to me that they couldn't be scum together.
This frivolity with hammering disturbs me. I'm not sure what your take on the vote count was- if you thought you weren't voting me and I was at L-2, or you thought I was at L-1 and you didn't notice my name and you simply intended to hammer.
If this was a intended hammer post, it's awfully scummy, and I really don't see how you could have missed the fact that I'm at L-1.
I put you at L-1-
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We are at 9 people with a probable 3 scum, so I suspect that we are one round before LyLo. I am thinking that the other mason should come forth and claim, but AFTER RC claims whether he got a guilty result last night (RC should claim either "I got a guilty" or "I am not claiming an action"). If the mason claims now, it forces scum to leave at least one confirmed townie in play going into LyLo, which is at least something. If the mason waits until next round to claim, scum can counterclaim, since everyone but Yates from off the DCL wagon is still alive, and I am fairly sure that it is not the case that all of the scum are among RC/ThAd/Gorckat/CoolDoG.
Here are the relevant wagons for VCA, btw. Assuming RC is town because if not then holy fuck we have an underpowered town:
In post 549, DCLXVI wrote:DCLXVI-TMTOLBTWNTOF, gorckat,Rob13, CooLDoG,RadiantCowbells, The AdmiralIn post 488, Kitoari wrote:TMTOLBTWNTOF- BROseidon, jmo16mla,Yates, Hoopla,DCLXVI, gorckat,Rob13
3 wagons-GorckatIn post 683, Kitoari wrote:Yates- Broseidon, roflcopter, nhammen, CooLDoG, gorckat,RadiantCowbells
2 wagons-myself,RC, CooLDoG
1 wagon- ThAd, jmo, Hoopla, rofl, nhammen
gorckat looks pretty bad from this, but I want to ISO him before I decide whether or not to park a vote there. Interesting to note that I am the only person off the DCL wagon who was on both the letters and Yates wagons. Not quite sure what to make of that, will sleep on it.
ModCan we get 1) Hoopla indicated as replacing DBK in the playerlist and 2) Updated alive/dead list on the front page? Thanks-
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Totally missed this earlier when doing VCA. Important to note that nhammen then puts CooLDoG an L-1.In post 358, nhammen wrote:Cooldog wagon as it stands: admiral, DBK, BRO, Rob, DCL
Reading nhammen's ISO is kind of painful. He never gives solid reads and is super reactionary to everything. He tries to look like he's adding content while never actually doing anything. I think Yates is probably right on this one. If it's not nhammen then CooLDoG is probably scum (that Rob and DCL flipped town is indicative of this).
VOTE: Nhammen-
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Am okay with RC's sheep onto me because I'm fairly confidant that he's town at this point. rofl's I am less comfortable with because he's been rubbing me the wrong way all game.
The relevance of nhammen putting CooLDoG to L-1 is to state that he was, in fact, on that wagon on someone who has become a townread for most people. DCL and Rob are both dead from that wagon (and confirmed town), I know my alignment, and I've townread the Hoopla/DBK slot pretty much all game up until this day phase, and now I'm just paranoid as fuck because we can't seem to hit shit.
Reason to suspect CooLDoG if you are town has to do with CooLDoG's wagon and Yates's wagon. If you are town, his position in both of those (receiving end of a wagon sheeped entirely by town as well as in the middle of a wagon on a towny) make him look really bad.
gorckat: Reason why nhammen is a better wagon than ThAd given an equal scumread on the two of them is because of the mason counter-claim. If we go to LyLo and scum don't NK the mason, then the only people who can counterclaim mason are myself, rofl, jmo, hoopla, and nhammen. Lynching nhammen has the potential to remove scum who could convolute the mason situation tomorrow, whereas lynching ThAd would not have the potential to do this. Also, why are you calling out ThAd when you've previously stated that you think scum were entirely off the DCL wagon? This seems odd.
Waiting for this.In post 720, ThAdmiral wrote:I think there are probably better lynches today than nhammen who hasn't jumped out at me as scum, then again scum are probably in the "haven't jumped out at me as scum" pile, so I'm torn on this. Would still prefer to lynch gorckat, but I will have a look back at some of the other wagons that formed in this game to see if I can figure anything out.
CooLDoG I do not dislike your vote but you're reasoning is meh.
Hmmm other than all this not much has changed for me. I need to do an ISO of gorckat to see what I think there but that isn't time urgent because I don't want to lynch there today. I want to lynch off the DCL wagon.
And yes I'm aware of the risk here but frankly I'm super willing to take that risk at this point.-
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This. Now do you have any reason other than my misrep to think that I'm scum?In post 735, CooLDoG wrote:I wouldn't worry about it. It is nearly impossible to set you up at this point.-
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Was thinking that ThAd was the lynch for today, but jmo started the day out like a complete moron. Need to recalibrate that read.
We have 8 left and 2 scum probably. I'm pretty sure scum is one of ThAd/gorck and one of Hoopla/jmo. Not sure I want to lynch from the potential mason pool again if we aren't having the mason claim (which I agree with. The mason should not claim today).
Question now is to see if gorck was bussing or if the ThAd lynch makes more sense. Will read into that later. Also, jmo's vote onto ThAd has 0 trajectory. Interesting.-
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So right now we have:
Conftown: RC, CooLDoG, mason {myself/jmo/hoopla/rofl}
Could be scum: ThAd, Gorckat, 3 of {myself/jmo/hoopla/rofl}
Scum will kill RC, CooLDoG, or a claimed mason tonight. I guess theoretically we could also have an unclaimed doctor, but that seems unlikely.
I'm now wavering on whether the mason should claim. While it does prevent a counterclaim, it also guarantees their death. Which isn't actually terrible because we already have 2 other conftown, so killing the mason would be the same as shooting RC or CooLDoG.
Okay, when put that way I think the mason should claim. Also...
VOTE: ThAdmiral I still think this is the best vote.-
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