Mini Normal 1460 - Normalville Mafia (GAME OVER)
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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WIFOM much?In post 15, Slandaar wrote:My questions have a point to them being that favourite alignment and to a lesser extent role can give insight into how engaged with the game you should expect that person to be if they are town (and if they are scum).
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Baezu is town. Only town is so eager to put out scumreads this early in the game, half expecting/hoping they would be right in order to boast with them at the end of the game.
However, Baezu is wrong and will not be boasting for at least 50% of her early reads.
I'll have an early guess as well: Slandaar and Future in a scumteam.
We shall see in the
VOTE: Future-
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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What? No. What gave you that idea?In post 37, Future wrote:Grimgroove, you saying BP is town?-
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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In post 44, Future wrote:I didn't mean the game, I meant the site.
Did you notice his join date under the avatar?
This join date leads me to believe he knows what he's doing through defending this No D1-lynch business. I haven't been in many games myself so far on this site, but in each and every one of them the general agreement was the thing that Baezu was explaining, and everyone disagreeing came under heavy scrutiny. I'll have to do a meta on BP but something tells me he knew he'd be getting reactions t§o this no-lynch-vote along the lines of the reactions he's getting now.
The way Baezu jumps on this "easy" bait I find scummier than publicly daring to take a stance you'll know very few people will agree with.-
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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WIFOM much?[/quote]In post 17, Grimgroove wrote:My questions have a point to them being that favourite alignment and to a lesser extent role can give insight into how engaged with the game you should expect that person to be if they are town (and if they are scum).
The WIFOM is here in that the question can be answered strategically. Scum planning to be active could say they prefer to be some town-aligned role, thus creating the natural association in your head that their high activity means they're town. Scum planning to be inactive or knowing that they generally are could do the opposite.
Or people could just be honest, like me. But even then there's not much to be learned from it.
I find the added value of your RQS only limited compared to some simple RVS'ing, but I don't find it scummy either. I don't understand the mini-wagon behind your name. I'd prefer more votes on Future.-
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Seeing how you already proved my point in your own exposé, I don't need to delve into it much further. The thing in bold is exactly what I was referring to.In post 61, thegooner wrote:
I disagree wholeheartedly. During the night, the mafia have to act together. They choose as a team which player's interactions get analyzed.In post 59, Grimgroove wrote:I personally think daytime activity (votes, posts, hammers, ...) are much easier to analyse than night kill-decisions.If someone is fingering the entire mafia team, they may leave them alive over the player that has fingered all civs to try and get mislynches. They may do the opposite for supreme WIFOM.During the day, mafia can deliberately not interact or choose to interact in certain ways to deceive. If a mafia gets pegged, then they can dig to keep suspicion away from any teammates. A night kill has no deception; that player is killed. No matter what, that player is getting analyzed the next day, and the lynch that follows generally reveals why mafia made that night hit.
UNVOTE: Elyse
VOTE: Grimgroove
My vote for Elyse was because I didn't realize the RVS had ended.
After a NK, all we know is what the role was of the person who died. This gives us one piece of information: what that person has been saying in the topic was genuine.
Barring a power role (in the case of a N1 kill we can, because the killed player wouldn't have had the chance to use their power, essesntially making him a VT during this initial phase just as much as the rest of us), this doesn't give us any information at all about the factual validity of what he's been saying, only that it was with good intentions.
All the other conclusions you'd make based on NK's would indeed, as you yourself so eloquently put it, be WIFOM.
Also, please explain how this disagreement warrants such a bad, bad vote.-
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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I wasn't defending him, I was giving my view on the matter. A view that even according to BP was wrong, but I still stand by what I said: scum prefers to say what town likes to hear, and BP knows full well that No D1 lynch was Always, is Always and will Always be a topic of contention.
1. A person is allowed to change their mind, especially when it comes to reads that occured on page 2.In post 73, Baezu wrote:@ grim - so first you're convinced I'm town and you want to prove me wrong:
Then you think I'm scum for jumping on easy bait:In post 34, Grimgroove wrote:Baezu is town. Only town is so eager to put out scumreads this early in the game, half expecting/hoping they would be right in order to boast with them at the end of the game.
However, Baezu is wrong and will not be boasting for at least 50% of her early reads.
The way Baezu jumps on this "easy" bait I find scummier than publicly daring to take a stance you'll know very few people will agree with.
2. To set the record straight: at this point I still think you're town, despite your overzealous jumping on bait. A scummy action doesn't make the scum.
Also, you've been defending BP
I'm even more sure of my initial assessment: BP/GRIMGROOVE = scum team!!!Did you notice his join date under the avatar?
This join date leads me to believe he knows what he's doing through defending this No D1-lynch business. I haven't been in many games myself so far on this site, but in each and every one of them the general agreement was the thing that Baezu was explaining, and everyone disagreeing came under heavy scrutiny. I'll have to do a meta on BP but something tells me he knew he'd be getting reactions t§o this no-lynch-vote along the lines of the reactions he's getting now.-
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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In post 85, Baezu wrote:BP I am no afraid and I'm not going to get lynched. Sorry that my confidence intimidates you but a lot of my logic is not superficial - it comes from what the rules say are classic scum tells. I know they are not ALWAYS scum tells but the more your play progresses "by the book", the more probabilistic that you are scum. Nothing personal.
Ever heared of the tunnel?-
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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I just noticed something went wrong in my post 87, this is a mere repetition of it with fixed tags, in order to avoid confusion.
1. A person is allowed to change their mind, especially when it comes to reads that occured on page 2.In post 73, Baezu wrote:@ grim - so first you're convinced I'm town and you want to prove me wrong:
Then you think I'm scum for jumping on easy bait:In post 34, Grimgroove wrote:Baezu is town. Only town is so eager to put out scumreads this early in the game, half expecting/hoping they would be right in order to boast with them at the end of the game.
However, Baezu is wrong and will not be boasting for at least 50% of her early reads.
The way Baezu jumps on this "easy" bait I find scummier than publicly daring to take a stance you'll know very few people will agree with.
2. To set the record straight: at this point I still think you're town, despite your overzealous jumping on bait. A scummy action doesn't make the scum.
[/quote]Also, you've been defending BP
I'm even more sure of my initial assessment: BP/GRIMGROOVE = scum team!!!Did you notice his join date under the avatar?
This join date leads me to believe he knows what he's doing through defending this No D1-lynch business. I haven't been in many games myself so far on this site, but in each and every one of them the general agreement was the thing that Baezu was explaining, and everyone disagreeing came under heavy scrutiny. I'll have to do a meta on BP but something tells me he knew he'd be getting reactions t§o this no-lynch-vote along the lines of the reactions he's getting now.
I wasn't defending him, I was giving my view on the matter. A view that even according to BP was wrong, but I still stand by what I said: scum prefers to say what town likes to hear, and BP knows full well that No D1 lynch was Always, is Always and will Always be a topic of contention.[/quote]-
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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I think I found us some scum!
I present to you, our Future, and I'll try to provide some context with these quotes as well, backing up my case that Future is scum, and if we want our future scumless, we need to get rid of Future first and foremost.
Already his RVS rubbed me the wrong way. He sounds like Mr. Goodie, in awe of all the evil around him. A fluffy bunny in a forest full of wolves. Who would want to portray such an image? Scum tactics right from the very start.
Besides, my name does not sound evil, it's groovy.
There is no such thing as "unnecessarily confrontational" in mafiagames. Confrontation is good. It's a big bang that gets discussions started. It's discussions that allows us to make opinions. It's opinions that allow us to vote. It's votes that allow us to lynch. But it all starts with the bang, the confrontation.In post 25, Future wrote:BP's "I don't reply to stupid questions" seems unnecessarily confrontational.
Peregrine, how serious are you about your Slandaar vote?
Again, he's trying to sound like Mr. Goodie, the voice of "why can't we all just get along?". I'll tell you why: because there's scum in our midst, and I think Mr. Pacifist is one of them.
"Strangely"? "Something gut-ly off"? Oh my, watch your words there! Don't want to rock anyone's boat. Sounds to me like some half-assed scumhunt with no facts and no conviction. And it's already clear from the few posts above you want to do one thing: avoid confrontation. What have you got to hide that makes you want to do that?In post 32, Future wrote:Well shit, I misinterpreted that. I thought BP was calling Slandaar's questions stupid, which seemed unnecessarily confrontational. Take that back.
That being said, BP is acting very, very strangely. I'm with Baezu; there's something gut-ly off about his posts so far.
UNVOTE: Dragon
VOTE: BP
A question that can be easily checked by clicking to the profile of BP. A non-question, as it were, and fake hunting and investigating. Also mark that here, he finds the No Lynch vote the most notably strange thing that he was referring to in his post 32, and thus probably the main reason for the vote.In post 33, Future wrote:Especially this - why suddenly vote NL? How much experience do you have on this site?
I never said this, and wasked him where he got that idea from. He never replied, avoiding confrontation. This is not the first time he does this. In posts 34, 47 and post 51 I called him out, called him scum, told other people to vote him, and what did he do? Nothing, nada, zilch. No response to those comments at all.In post 37, Future wrote:Grimgroove, you saying BP is town?
Lies, you can easily check the join date right under his avatar, you couldn't mean the site in your question unless you were asking for the obvious. Why would you ask for the obvious?In post 44, Future wrote:I didn't mean the game, I meant the site.
I don't like the "like Grimgroove said", which feels like buddying to tyhe player who has been attacking him throughout this game.In post 70, Future wrote:
I'm torn. While I mentioned that gut off-ness about BP's posts, I completely disagree with Red Dragon and Baezu here. I really, really don't think BP's wanting to NL is indicative of his alignment either way; I haven't gone through his other games (if he has any) but his convictions here make it seem like an idea he stands by as town and one he would present as part of a town meta if he was scum. I don't think being difficult regarding mathematical logic is a scumtell. In fact, I'd expect scum to be even more flip-floppy than town in this case; scum loves to appease the town.Red Dragon wrote:I think bp is scum because I find it very, very hard to believe that a town player, when shown with mathematical facts, would ever decided to play sub optimally. Deciding not to lynch d1 is certainly something that scum would want to do. A town player would not want to take away a lynch opportunity, and thus it can be concluded that BP is not playing with the town in mind. I do not know if BP is scum, but I know for a fact he is NOT town. Actually his play would make a lot of sense from an sk perspective...
Another thing scum love to do is go after easy lynches, especially with new(ish) players like BP who do something like he's doing right now. Like Grimgroove said, Baezu/Red Dragon here are scummier than BP are. Baezu more than Dragon at this point for Post 45. "We need to lynch this now" is scummy as hell.
UNVOTE: BP
VOTE: Baezu
P.S. Dragon, no need to be mean, bro.
I also don't like how suddenly the gut-feeling becomes the main reason why he thought BP was scummy, as opposed to the No Lynch vote, like explained in his post 33. It's inconsistent. First the NL-vote was "especially strange", now it's suddenly "especially townish". This does not add up at all.
Thoughts?-
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Also the gooner has been slightly inconsistent, and given he only posted three times, this is quite a feat.
First of all: you still didn't explain your vote on me.In post 61, thegooner wrote:
I disagree wholeheartedly. During the night, the mafia have to act together. They choose as a team which player's interactions get analyzed. If someone is fingering the entire mafia team, they may leave them alive over the player that has fingered all civs to try and get mislynches. They may do the opposite for supreme WIFOM. During the day, mafia can deliberately not interact or choose to interact in certain ways to deceive. If a mafia gets pegged, then they can dig to keep suspicion away from any teammates. A night kill has no deception; that player is killed. No matter what, that player is getting analyzed the next day, and the lynch that follows generally reveals why mafia made that night hit.In post 59, Grimgroove wrote:I personally think daytime activity (votes, posts, hammers, ...) are much easier to analyse than night kill-decisions.
UNVOTE: Elyse
VOTE: Grimgroove
My vote for Elyse was because I didn't realize the RVS had ended.
Second: You did not respond to my remarks on your logic.
Third: My argument was one against the idea of having a no lynch on day 1. Lynch-wagons and out-in-the-open arguments are easier to analyse than night kills, where arguments and decision patterns are not out in the open and there's more guesswork and more WIFIM poissibilities. I never said looking into Night Kills is completely useless either, something you seem to imply here. This was also my initial point, the one you wholeheartedly disagreed with. Yet when I see the closing sentence in your next quote:
we seem to be on the same, or at least similar, page after all when it comes to the grounds of the discussion. So, what is it going to be, gooner?In post 81, thegooner wrote:
Nope, not from EM. But counterclaims yield a mafia member nearly 100% of the time. If we are claiming in a lylo situation, then the game is pretty much a 50-50 RNG at that point. As for fake night actions, unless I'm mistaken, mafia make kills each night. If that's not the case and they can no kill, then my previous statement starts to lose water. I fully understand that mafia WIFOMs plenty, but at the end of the day (or in this case, night), someone is killed, and the town gets to analyze. If it was a WIFOM and the night kill was a decoy, then the next lynch/night kill should reveal that.In post 66, Red Dragon wrote:
In a 100% ideal world I would agree with this. If, theoretically, the mafia played perfectly this would be 100% true. Unfortunately that is not the case. However, you are assuming that scum never make mistakes and that scum won't counter claim or try to deceive us with fake night actions. You underestimate the wifom that the scum can put on us with their night actions... pleased don't tell me you are an em tard too.
And if scum make mistakes, then it doesn't matter if we lynch or not. If a scum becomes obvious, then of course we lynch them.I'm saying that a no lynch on the first day is not a pro-town proposition.-
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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What?In post 119, Future wrote:Players are reminded that all site rules apply here, particularly the following:In [url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6470]the forum rules[/url], mith wrote:Do not talk outside the game thread about an ongoing game except where explicitly allowed to do so by your role/moderator. Likewise, do not use bbcode to hide secret messages - this equates to discussion outside the thread.Any future discussion of ongoing games will result in forced replacement or modkilling at the moderator's discretion.-
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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In post 128, Darthe wrote:To clarify, I am willin to vote Beazu or hammer him if we can get that far. Not agreeing with him and his oddness.
What are your thoughts on Future?-
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Because you have no scumreads?In post 129, Darthe wrote:My theory on this game is that nobody is mafia and you're all trolling me.-
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Funny how interpretations of this post are diametrical with for instance thegooner.In post 166, Darthe wrote:
Didn't like you until here, but this post is townie as it gets, not because of the defense but because of the tone and concern for life.In post 137, Baezu wrote:You guys need to listen to Slandaar. I am TOWN.I swear to you.The reason that I want to lynch BP is because he just seems to me to REEK of scum so why not continue to try to push for someone that I feel is scum? That is also the reason I was not willing to move my vote. But, since people obviously cannot be convinced by my words I will just have to wait for the mafia to NK me n1 to show you my role PM. Maybe there is a doctor out there who is willing to protect me because as I said before, I am TOWN. Also, when I get killed will you please vote for BP. That is my dying wish. For now, I will vote with those who are more experienced and take their word that future is indeed scum. Hopefully you guys are right.
VOTE: Future
I find it townie. I'm not sure in how far swearing is actually allowed, and some people take it more seriously than others, but the thing in bold has got me convinced.
He didn't expose himself. I forced him to expose himself. Instead of a defense we get this:
My thoughts are that mafia don't needlessly expose themselves like below without a reason, but since I can't see a reason for doing this other than sincerity it appears town to me and blown out of proportion by the further posts.In post 151, Grimgroove wrote:In post 128, Darthe wrote:To clarify, I am willin to vote Beazu or hammer him if we can get that far. Not agreeing with him and his oddness.
What are your thoughts on Future?
All caps is just form. Null all the way. But what about the content? Well, the content is this: he implies the post that got edited was a very strong defense, and now that it got deleted, he doesn't seem to want to bother to actually defend himself in some other, mod-acceptable way. He just refers to meta, and about he's not wanting to be an asshole. How does him not wanting to be an asshole address any of the points that were put forward against him? How is writing in all caps and bitching not being an asshole?
See, what could be the point?In post 130, Future wrote:FUCK I REFERRED TO AN ONGOING GAME BUT THE GIST OF IT WAS THAT I'M FUCKING TOWN BECAUSE I'VE BEEN CALLED SCUMMY FOR BEING TOO MUCH OF AN ASSHOLE AND I DECIDED TO NOT BE AN ASSHOLE HERE
In your eyes, what has Future contributed that goes beyond lurking? What do you think of his scumhunting?
This guy pings. Setting up lynches, rhetoric and pointed conjecture "assume you're lurking, gonna ask people to lynch" etc. Why wouldn't he already be pushing if his vote was there instead of using it with a passive attitude? It can only be to avoid being linked to heavily to a lynch.In post 154, BP wrote:Darthe. Post something usable, otherwise I'm just gonna assume you're lurking and lynch you because if you're not scum in hiding you're just not being helpful.
Future. If you don't reply soon I'm gonna start asking people to lynch your ass, cuz my vote's already there.
What do you mean by "using it with a passive attitude"?
I don't find this a strong ping-point at all.
This was a repetition of the game theory discussion that took place before, I don't see many new elements but I'm glad Ztife decided to get active.. I've only arrived on this website recently and I've already seen plenty of people defending a NL on Day 1 without being scum. And always, they are considered scummy. There's obviously a consensus on these forums that D1 No-lynches are bad, but that doesn't mean everyone has to agree with it, and that doesn't mean there are no arguments on the other side of the spectrum that make sense.
This was a great post and you sir have earned a town read.In post 161, Ztife wrote:@BP
NL IS ANTI-TOWN.
Mislynch sounds like negative and we should prevent it, but it actually happens and is necessary/all part of the game. Lynching = chance of killing scum. NL = No chance of killing scum. (without factoring PRs, but im sure you get the basic idea)
Which comes to the point of... Knowing who is "conf scum" before you lynch? That's exactly what a scum would say, there's no way we will know a person's alignment before a flip (yeah cops and shit, but that's not the point here)
Day flips are as important as night flips. The conversations and bandwagons and shifts are what makes the dynamics of a lynch informative. If we decide on an NL scums can do whatever they want now and confuse town even more, there's no real incentive in trying to take any action or push any wagon.
Town makes mistakes and have mislynches. Its all part of the game. Towns are confident of lynches and scum hunting. Scums will NEVER be confident of a lynch, simply because mislynching makes them look scummy. Which is pretty much the exact "theory" you are talking about. Unless its a MYLO vs LYLO situation or something, in general NL is basically taking away town's main power.
Even if we get a night flip everything else turns into WIFOM D2.
Also, what?In post 112, BP wrote: I'm not gonna try and defend myself anymore. Everything's been said, I reckon, the logic to my no-lynch theory has been explained too often. I just wanna say that a no-lynch won't obviously occur, so don't be surprised if further ahead I vote for a lynch. I just think that at the time, we didn't have enough juice to get it started. And we do now.
If you're town why wouldn't you want to tell us more about what is going on in your mind? Why not share with us why an NL would benefit us? Why suggest and "defend" yourself about the benefits of an NL, then give up halfway and tell us you will vote for a lynch? How would you explain that your action's aren't scum motivated? What makes you think that you can get information now to be confident enough to lynch "scum"? What happened to looking at N1 kill and starting your scum hunting from there? What changed from #30 to #112?
Also, could you name your top 2 town and scum for us?
@PeregrineV's 109
How does BP looks town to you?
SCUM FOUND.
Vote:BP
I find any conclusion based on views on game theory uncalled for, because game theory goes beyond just one game, and thus also beyond a single role PM.
Also, there's an insinuation there I don't like in the question to BP about who his main scumreads are. If you read his posts it's obvious who his main scumreads are.
In post 163, Red Dragon wrote:
If you are wrong they will keep you around. Controversy can be a good distraction.In post 143, Baezu wrote:@Elyse I just feel like scum will want to nk me because I've been causing a lot of ripples in the water and making accusations.
Are you in every normal?In post 144, Ztife wrote:catching up in progress.
This sounds exactly like the sort of thing scum would say. "I was wrong and was trying to pull a fast one early, but it got reactions guys!!!! Also, please don't lynch me."In post 162, BP wrote: 5. Quite frankly, everything. My NL vote got loads of reactions and kinda got the game going, I think. Plus, Grimgroove's post on Future is quite the case, and Darthe's lurking is also something that worries me. But if you think that between page 2 and 7 nothing deserved of a change has happened, well then... give the thread another read.@Red Dragon"Pulling a fast one"? Explain.-
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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As I understand it chernobylcitybus saw the original post, and he was obviously not impressed by it either, despite all the fuss Future is making about it.In post 160, chernobylcitybus wrote:
I'm not. Don't overrep one. ^_^In post 159, Future wrote:CCB, that wasn't the point. Don't misrep a deleted post.-
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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First of all, I don't like how you are implying that I'm being ambiguous in my reads/opinions or that I made it look as if discussions haven't made sense so far. I get the feeling you didn't actually bother reading my posts, and I will show you be replying to all of your questions by simply pointing you to posts I've already made.
About the other games, I can't discuss ongoing games, and since there's only been 1 game that ended at this point I'll point you to that one:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7&start=25
In this case numberfour defended a no lynch on Day 1 and was town.
I just go to this site and already enccountered this No lynch discussion in pretty much every game I was in. You've been here since 2009. Are you telling me you've never encountered town defending a No Lynch on day 1? I have difficulties believing that.-
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Are you angry for stating you were simply rehashing what has already been said? Because apart from the scum-association you made with someone defending a No-Lynch on Day 1, there have been no new elements in your theoretical exposé.
Now to answering your waterfall of questions. So I won't be able to answer everything with post-referrals, but I'm glad to say I managed to do so for the questions where some form of bad judgement was brooding just beneath their surface.
See previous post. (post 171)In post 170, Ztife wrote:
You have seen games where town defend/suggest NLs? Could you quote me at least 2 games so I could take a look?In post 168, Grimgroove wrote:In post 166, Darthe wrote:In post 137, Baezu wrote:This was a repetition of the game theory discussion that took place before, I don't see many new elements but I'm glad Ztife decided to get active.. I've only arrived on this website recently and I've already seen plenty of people defending a NL on Day 1 without being scum. And always, they are considered scummy. There's obviously a consensus on these forums that D1 No-lynches are bad, but that doesn't mean everyone has to agree with it, and that doesn't mean there are no arguments on the other side of the spectrum that make sense.
I find any conclusion based on views on game theory uncalled for, because game theory goes beyond just one game, and thus also beyond a single role PM.
Also, there's an insinuation there I don't like in the question to BP about who his main scumreads are. If you read his posts it's obvious who his main scumreads are.
I did. In posts 59 and 62 and 92.Instead of telling us that there are always 2 sides to a coin, why not tell us which side you are on? Or which "side of the spectrum makes sense" to you?
No, where did I give the impression that I would?If I were to find an opportunity to lynch you instead, say using a random number generator, would you agree to it?
You're talking about the no-lynch I assume? I answered this question for you in post 48 and again at the end of post 89.Would you think that its more likely scums would suggest such things rather than town?
Or were you talking about random lynching? In this case I don't see any relevance into answering, because I've never defended random lynching, and nobody in this topic did.
Again: when talking about No Lynching: it's not obscure. It's a stance that has certain arguments going for it that are convincing enough for some people, and not for others. It is not alignment indicative.Because when actual "scum hunting" goes wrong, scums might look guilty. But when you suggest something obscure (and quite frankly absurd) it helps shake off that guilt to "bad luck".
Random lynching is different because there are no arguments at all that are in favor for it that make any sense. You might as well just go play the lottery.
Same theory rehash. Zzzzz. I agree with your theory on NL, I disagree with the last sentence, but by now I expect you've read my posts so I guess this will be clear to you (post 48 and end of 89). I'd also like to refer to my post you quotes yourself in this matter: "I find any conclusion based on views on game theory uncalled for, because game theory goes beyond just one game, and thus also beyond a single role PM." - GrimgrooveD1 lynches might not exactly be ground breaking, but as per discussion it is more beneficial for town to lynch. Therefore its more beneficial for scum to suggest NL.
Because he joins in voting and pressuring it doesn't mean he'll want to see a flip at the end of this day no matter what happens. What the discussion has told me about BP: if a person is at L-1 of whom BP doesn't think he's scum, BP won't vote him just to see a flip at the end of the day, and will prefer a NL. I don't agree with this stance, but I don't think it's scummy and I don't see where BP changed sides in this matter.Another key idea why BP is scummy is because of his inconsistency in his idea.He basically "changed sides" because the side he was on makes him look bad, which is what scums fear.
All the scumhunting that went beyond game theory and this NL-business.So building on your statement, what of the discussion makes sense to you thus far?
Urgh, this is obvious if you read all my previous posts. Don't see how I could reply to such a vague question in any other way.Which do you agree and not agree with?
Yes. Well, considering you like talking about game theory so much: don't you think it's important to read what people posted in a game of Mafia? I thought this was pretty basic, but obviously you disagree.Surely there has to be a couple of points you have opinions on without drawing "conclusion on game theory".
That question was answered in the very post you were replying to. Again, I refer to my quote: "I find any conclusion based on views on game theory uncalled for, because game theory goes beyond just one game, and thus also beyond a single role PM." -GrimgrooveWould you not agree if I say that youmighthave a different view on game theory if you have a anti-town role compared to when you have an town role?
BP leans town to me (48 and 89 makes this pretty clear, and afterwards he's been one of the better scumhunters.And the main point is, what exactly is your view on BP? Or does everything seems null to you? And I missed his post on the reads, what do you not like about it? I would prefer a little less ambiguity if you could.
The second question :where did I say anything about everything seeming null to me? Not everything is null to me. I'm already quite convinced Future is scum, the way I asked questions to darthe should tell you something about how I feel about his way of thinking, and I'm not liking you very much as town either for the moment. Baezu (as stated earlier) leans town for me, as does BP.
I have no problem with BP's reads, i never said I did. I have a problem with darthe implying BP never was clear in giving out reads, while he was. Same thing as you're trying to pull of with me, come to think of it.-
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Getting back to the rest later, but about my question:
What do you mean by "pulling a fast one"? It's an expression I am unfamiliar with. Why is "pulling a fast one" scummy and when did BP "pull a fast one"?In post 163, Red Dragon wrote:
This sounds exactly like the sort of thing scum would say. "I was wrong andIn post 162, BP wrote: 5. Quite frankly, everything. My NL vote got loads of reactions and kinda got the game going, I think. Plus, Grimgroove's post on Future is quite the case, and Darthe's lurking is also something that worries me. But if you think that between page 2 and 7 nothing deserved of a change has happened, well then... give the thread another read.was trying to pull a fast one early, but it got reactions guys!!!! Also, please don't lynch me."-
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Only when there are no better options.In post 173, Red Dragon wrote:
And he deserved to die for being anti-town. But this really comes up to opinion. I'm down with lynching village idiots, are you?In post 171, Grimgroove wrote: In this case numberfour defended a no lynch on Day 1 and was town.
Also, numberfour didn't die in that topic, nobody did. It got cancelled before anyone got the chance to lynch/kill anyone.
Also, what makes someone a Village Idiot? Dio you feel BP deserves this title simply for his stance on No Lynch? What would you think if someone said that if someone is unable to use straightforward quote-tags properly, he'll probably also be unable to do something as complex as finding scum?
We're going in circles. Please read what I said, I understand the theory perfectly fine, thank you.In post 172, Grimgroove wrote: Here is the deal that I don't think you understand. NL day 1 is a horrible idea for reasons already explained (we lose a lynch, flip, chance at hitting scum, etc.). If the town nl d1 it puts the scum at a significant advantage over the town, thus it would be a good idea if scum could a achieve a no lynch d1. It makes prefect sense for scum to advocate for a nl d1 because it helps them out. So yes arguing for a no lynch is scummy, or at the very least not town.-
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In post 218, Baezu wrote:Personally I wasn't so comfortable with Slandaar putting future at L-1 so quickly after nacho's vote. It may be nothing but if future flips town....
Please finish your sentence, I'm very curious what those 4 dots represent.-
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I find this a very wishywoshy post. It's impossible to distill your opinion from this.In post 221, Ztife wrote:
This.In post 218, Baezu wrote:Personally I wasn't so comfortable with Slandaar putting future at L-1 so quickly after nacho's vote. It may be nothing but if future flips town....
Then again, I never quite gotten understanding slandaar and his voting and explainations in a couple of games anyway.-
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Does it make much sense as town?In post 214, Darthe wrote:I get why people have issue with future, but his play doesn't make sense as mafia even in ISO. It would be incredibly poor mafia play.-
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Normally I don't think inactivity says something about alignment (luckily, if not pretty much all of you would be scum), but in this case I can't help but feel Future's sudden absence is scummy. He never adressed the issues laid before him, and left off in a hurried fury.
I realize it's rarely a good idea to lynch without a claim, but I don't think even a claim would convince me in this case, and I don't feel like sitting here idly for something tohappen. This game desperately needs a CPR shock in its current state, half of the playing field doesn't give a shit about what goes on here, and don't evenr ead half of people's posts.
I think a lynch on Future might at least provide some clearer basis for discussion, and will get use one lynched scum as an added bonus.
Hammertime!-
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That's fine, I expected a reaction along those lines. Normally I don't like these holier than the pope stances like the one BP just made, but at least he's one of the few active people so I'm letting it slide. I guess he has not yet reached the point of frustration with this game where I am currently at.
I don't think I'm not being proper town. I've made a case against Future that he responded to in such a way that left my entire case standing and intact. His reaction strikes me as scum feeling silly of having been caught so early in the game, and deciding not to put too much effort in it anymore. This starts by some post referring to his meta, the editing of this post by the mod (not before chernobylcitybus could see the unconvincing original though), Future complaining about that and then simply disappearing.
So yes, I want this guy lynched, regardless of what he would claim.
Now, one argument could be: why end this day now, when there is still time?
To that my response is simple: so far we haven't done shit with our time. 90% of this game's posts are about game theory. If I wanted that, I'd just go check out the Wiki-pages instead of signing up for a game. I sincerely hope for you, for me, and for this game that the extra time you're willing to spend on D1 will be rewarded by some activity, but what I've seen leaves little room for such hope.
I don't really care about not being proper town, it's the inactivity that is the only true anti-town behavior in this topic.-
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Agreed, especially with the "hmmmm".In post 238, Slandaar wrote:
Lets look at this wagonIn post 223, ac1983fan wrote:Future (6) - grimgroove, chernobylcitybus, BP, Baezu, Nachomamma8, Slandaar (L-1)
Grim is town
Cher maybe town, he made one good post
BP is town
Baezu is town.
Nacho hmmmm.
I am town
Looks good.-
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Yes, you're a townread now. Not because of you swearing you're town, because you obviously don't take it seriously (see bolded part in my original post), but because of calling me dumb.In post 244, Elyse wrote:
I'm sorry but this is really dumb.In post 168, Grimgroove wrote:
Funny how interpretations of this post are diametrical with for instance thegooner.In post 166, Darthe wrote:
Didn't like you until here, but this post is townie as it gets, not because of the defense but because of the tone and concern for life.In post 137, Baezu wrote:You guys need to listen to Slandaar. I am TOWN.I swear to you.The reason that I want to lynch BP is because he just seems to me to REEK of scum so why not continue to try to push for someone that I feel is scum? That is also the reason I was not willing to move my vote. But, since people obviously cannot be convinced by my words I will just have to wait for the mafia to NK me n1 to show you my role PM. Maybe there is a doctor out there who is willing to protect me because as I said before, I am TOWN. Also, when I get killed will you please vote for BP. That is my dying wish. For now, I will vote with those who are more experienced and take their word that future is indeed scum. Hopefully you guys are right.
VOTE: Future
I find it townie. I'm not sure in how far swearing is actually allowed,and some people take it more seriously than others, but the thing in bold has got me convinced.
I swear I'm town too.
Am I am townread now?
I don't think scum would risk pissing me off like that.
I did think swearing was not allowed on this website though. Imagine some player you know is a father swearing on his children's lives that he's town. I for one would not for a single moment doubt the truthfulness of his claim, but I would consider it cheating.
Swearing is a social convention that plenty of people take seriously, without necessarily making them dumb.-
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(PS, to clarify: I'm not angry for you calling it dumb, just to make that clear, but you did take a risk of making me angry by saying it, and you taking this risk makes you lean town for me)
Notice: This argument only applies to people who risked making me angry before I stated that makes them lean town for me. Any further provocations will be considered scummy.-
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What makes the wagon uninteresting for you?In post 239, Red Dragon wrote: I'm disinterested by the future wagon, that is my official stance.-
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In post 287, SunnyDays wrote: When I first joined I got a message from ac1983 fan saying that I am a townsperson but that came into the game with powers. I wasn't told what the powers are, but I imagine there are some clues somewhere in the thread. I'm going to try to read through as quickly as possible so that I can let you know if I find anything, but can someone please take their vote off of me!
LOL-
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Getting worried already? I see no reason at all why I should answer this question, and even less reasons why you should be asking this question.In post 318, Nachomamma8 wrote:
Why not? What makes you such a threat to scum in this playerlist?In post 266, Grimgroove wrote:I don't think scum would risk pissing me off like that.
You weren't PR-fishing, were you?-
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The sample VT-description in the beginning of this topic talks of "the only powers that you have are those you came in the game with". Instead of interpreting that as your intellect and a vote, obviously SunnDays thought there were some powers he had but that were not yet specified.In post 320, Ztife wrote:
What do you think he was misreading then? SunnyDays just seems to be posting crap claims and OMGUS voting, someone please explain to me the reasoning how is he town.In post 300, Grimgroove wrote:UNVOTE:
I think I see what happened here. SunnyDays simply misread his role-pm.
Nothing as honest as a mistake. SunnyDays is town and I was wrong about Future.
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If he's null to you, why bother singling out this vote on him in order to express your disagreement? I haven't seen you do that for votes on other people?In post 339, Ztife wrote:
Not agreeing with this. ATM still seems pretty null to me.In post 330, Grimgroove wrote:thegooner obviously will be needing a replacement.
While we wait:
VOTE: Nachomamma8-
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