Mini 1651: One Flew Over The Monkey's Nest(Scum Wins!)

[Aquanim]

VOTE: Aeronaut

[Aquanim]

UNVOTE: Aeronaut
VOTE: Aeronaut

[Aquanim]

UNVOTE: Aeronaut
VOTE: InsidiousLemons

[Aquanim]

...
Three votes on page 1 is SCUMMY
...

Why would that be?

[Aquanim]

Why do we exist

All the world's a stage...

Okay, fine. If it's not an RVS vote, why do you think it's being made?

Chances are that IL's terrible RVS vote reasoning did that.
...

This is essentially accurate.

[Aquanim]

VOTE: mykonian for not remembering toolenduso. HOW COULD YOU?

@Aquanim and pisskop Why is this scummy to you?

For my part, I don't see how this post (#17) was intended to drive forward discussion at all, and I think the thread had advanced to a point where making such a post was possible.

[Aquanim]

Point out to me one post before #17 that could possibly produce anything of substance. From what I see, there were a few random votes, an introduction, and a "reaction test" mod vote that did nothing.

Something could have been made of my revote for Aeronaut or Mykonian's introduction. Alternatively you could have made a more interesting RVS to provoke discussion (a third vote for eektor would have done the trick, I expect.)

[Aquanim]

...

Something could have been made of my revote for Aeronaut

or Mykonian's introduction. Alternatively you could have made a more interesting RVS to provoke discussion (a third vote for eektor would have done the trick, I expect.)

Care to explain that, by the way, now you've brought it up?

Not particularly, except to say that I didn't do it just for amusement's sake.

[Aquanim]

Let me guess...you did it for reactions?

I find that these kinds of "reaction tests" during RVS on page 1 are often meaningless and an easy way for scum to gain town cred.

That doesn't sound like a positive reason to call it "SCUMMY" to me, merely that it is not a good reason to call someone town. Can you explain further why you think it is the former, as opposed to the latter?

[Aquanim]

You seem smart enough to realize that early reaction tests are meaningless, so it would make more sense for you to have ulterior motives.

However, I didn't know that then. I mostly said SCUMMY in all caps as an exaggeration since it's page 1. But yeah you do seem pretty smart and if you acknowledge that it makes sense to call someone either not town or scum based on what you did, then I think my vote is in the right place at the moment.

I might call my play a "reaction test", though not in the same pejorative sense you mean it. (Which is to say, I wasn't setting some ridiculous and meaningless trap for anyone.) I'm reasonably satisfied with having induced the beginnings of alignment-relative discussion before the end of page 1 by doing something controversial.

I'm also okay with taking care of your vote until (if and when) you have somewhere better to put it.

[Aquanim]

...
Um... I was the third vote on eektor? I was just adding onto a pressure bandwagoning to get more elaborate responses from people.

Since eektor hasn't really done anything worthy of concern, and some people here have made their presence

blatant.

UNVOTE: eektor
...

Who are you referring to as "blatant"... for that matter, what do you mean by the word?

(Don't worry about hurting my feelings, if your answer swings in that direction.)

If you've decided eektor is no longer worthy of your vote, I'd like to know who you think is.

[Aquanim]

...

I think he is gauging for reactions, but I can see people may think this.

Anyway, I associate the word 'eek'-tor to scream, and scream to fear, and fear to mafia because mafia wants you to be afraid because they can kill you. - Conspiracy theory.

VOTE: eektor

ANYWAYS, hi everyone. Looking forward to this game, and hi odd. Seems like we are both in two games together.

specifically the first line is both overexplaining and noncommittal, both things I consider scummy.

I like this, but I have some issues with it as well. Need to see some more real talk before I know how I feel about it.

Two questions:
1) Which of the posts are you referring to, Taly's (the inside one with the vote for eektor) or RadiantCowbells'?
2) What are the issues which you have?

...
How does a vote and retraction take away from a reaction test. If I say so I've gotten a couple good reactions. Like putting someone at L-1 when another person is counter claiming a cop role.
Hard scum read on InsidiousLemons, but not a target right now I want to hear from TheDude about the counter claim and more from mykonian

Also, is there a list of the roles in this game I can't seem to find it.

Are you saying that that late RVS vote and unvote was a deliberate and pre-planned reaction test?
Can you explain your "hard scum read" on InsidiousLemons to me? Is it only based on his attacking you?

[Aquanim]

I'm going to hold it against you but lets see how everything else goes.

For now time to get more information out of others.

Who in particular do you want to get more information out of and why?

[Aquanim]

@Taly

: I believe that stating how many games you are in and that they are all in day 1 is acceptable (I mean, they are verifiable facts after all) but don't say anything more about ongoing games. (You probably know this already but I think it's best to be explicit.)

In the light of his #121 what is your read on toolenduso?

@InsidiousLemons

: I'm presently voting you; would you like to make an argument as to where my vote would be better placed?

[Aquanim]

I'd still like an answer to the other part of #128 re. your read on toolenduso. Given the quantity of his posts so far I don't expect much of a read - just the vibe you're getting will suffice.

[Aquanim]

Hey dude.

Spoiler:

I'm going to keep doing that. I'm sorry.

I investigated Mykonian in pre-game and he is scum:

Vote: Mykyonian

Is this supposed to be an RVS vote?

Well we are out of RVS so I'm going to unvote

UNVOTE:

Nope. but are you telling me that you know he's town?

Are you telling me that you think he's scum?

After two people told metalcyanide to stop bringing us back to RVS, why would you slap down an RVS vote?

I think the whole "bringing us back to RVS" business is bogus. I mean the game is going to progress regardless.

I agree with you up to a point, but why didn't you contribute to progressing the game at that stage?

[Aquanim]

...

why didn't you contribute to progressing the game at that stage?

I'd only skimmed the thread and I decided that I was going to do that before the game even started.

I figured.

What's your reason for townreading Metalcyanide at this point? I can't say I'm a fan of the "Time to get information from other people" into "Peace out!" transition myself though I'm prepared to give him time to make good.

[Aquanim]

...
I think I'm voting someone town.

That sounds suboptimal if you're town. Feasible, but suboptimal.

I can see the others, but given his inexperience I'm not yet sold on Taly as a scumread. Would you mind explaining what you're seeing?

[Aquanim]

I see where y'all be coming from on the Oddmusic tone read but I'm not quite sold. So far as I can tell Oddmusic has no completed games onsite so a bit of timidity is not entirely unexpected. (I'm not saying it makes him town, I'm saying it's believable from town.) RadiantCowbells' #154 and #155 were quite belligerent, and on that grounds I can kind of understand why oddmusic might have "overreacted" in #156. Considering that RadiantCowbells had likened Oddmusic's previous posting to a scumclaim I don't think #156 was a strawman at all.

And could you be trying any harder to come up with random reasons to scumread me?

You voted me, which theoretically means that you think I'm scum, but when I vote you back your first response is that I'm "coming up with random reasons to scumread" you, not that I'm defensive scum which implies that you think I'm town, but you have me voted which means otherwise.

This forms a contradiction.
.*. Music is scum. QED

I have a feeling this is improper wording more than anything. A scumread doesn't necessarily come from town, it could be a fake scumread. This is a bad point IMO.

In particular, I agree with this. "Coming up with random reasons to scumread" someone definitely reads to me as something I could and would say about a scum.

All in all I feel like RadiantCowbells in particular is reaching a bit to try to consolidate this read.

I prefer Aeronaut as a wagon and as a lynch, on the grounds that in ten posts so far he's done just about nothing.
UNVOTE: InsidiousLemons
VOTE: Aeronaut

[Aquanim]

EBWOP: Oddmusic might be scum but it's going to take more than a bunch of people jumping excitedly on his confession of confusion to convince me of that. If Aeronaut was town I strongly suspect he'd have done something useful by now.

[Aquanim]

You're completely missing my point. It could come from scum but it's not something that's inherently scummy, and as music voted me and therefore considers me scum it seems improbable that their response would be so ambivalent as to whether I would be town or not.

Not everybody feels the need to scream that their target is scum with every post they make. For that matter, claiming that you're making up reasons to scumread him (I have paraphrased here, but it's a believable interpretation of his words IMO) doesn't indicate that he thinks you're town by any means.

I'm ambivalent as to your alignment and nevertheless think that your points against him are far less conclusive than you've claimed.
(For the record that leaves me with three possibilities: 1) you're town and believe them anyway, 2) you're town and overemphasising to get the game going, or 3) you're scum and pushing something which you inherently don't believe.)

Running late, have to leave, see you later.

[Aquanim]

I wouldn't even mind an Aquinas lynch right now
...

I'm going to assume you're talking about me despite your mangling of my name - is this for any actual reason besides that I disagree with you?

Don't think I haven't noticed your Oddmusic vote was an OMGUS, either.

[Aquanim]

Because you're the kind of player who makes sure town loses, regardless of faction.

Consider it a policy lynch.

I've never lost a town game on this site, and I've never been endgamed by scum here or elsewhere in around 8 games.

That being said, you're going to have to justify this statement. Now.

[Aquanim]

Every minute you don't have a reason, you become less believable, RadiantCowbells. The clock is ticking.

[Aquanim]

Well, you're going to have to justify that vote to the rest of the players here, even if you feel no need to justify it to me. I suggest you start now.

In the meantime, does anyone have any reason to think Aeronaut's town? If you do, I'd like to discuss it.

[Aquanim]

Or the third option, in which I am contesting a scum read which I either don't fully understand or don't agree with. (Or both.)

ninja edit: I'm not super-worried about the wagon on Oddmusic; it's a thing to be discussed (one of the few serious wagons to date) and I'm questioning your reasoning and motivations so as to discern your alignment.

[Aquanim]

I don't really have a solid reason to think Aero's town. However, I don't have any solid reason to believe the reverse, either. There are better D1 lynches.

Unlike some of the other likely-looking wagons today, Aeronaut has played a decent amount, which means he has both experience and a meta. A brief read over his previous games indicated to me that his lacklustre contributions so far (IIRC everything game relevant he's said so far had already been said) is more consistent with his scum-game than his town-game.

[Aquanim]

So... you're townreading me (#208), but you're voting me based on a preflip association case (#209) which assumes that I am scum? (yes, and some policy thing about me disagreeing with your case)

That doesn't make any sense. I don't know whether not making any sense makes you scum, unfortunately.

With respect to #207: I am indeed not townreading or scumreading Oddmusic. I am scumreading Aeronaut. Therefore, I'd much prefer to see votes on Aeronaut as opposed to Oddmusic.

[Aquanim]

I still can't say I like the slot for town, but not having time would explain un-useful play.

Ninja edit: Lovely. I've seen games compromised by replacers talking about their reads and play so I'll wait to discuss this with your replacement.

[Aquanim]

With respect to #207: I am indeed not townreading or scumreading Oddmusic. I am scumreading Aeronaut. Therefore, I'd much prefer to see votes on Aeronaut as opposed to Oddmusic

Okay, now you're firmly in my scumpile.

Thanks for clarifying.

#172 makes it very clear that you consider Oddmusic town, which didn't fit into the rest of your reads and caused my confusion. Now that you've clarified that you claim to townread him, I can rest easy knowing you're scum.

On the contrary. #172 made it very clear that I didn't think much of the arguments thus far raised that Oddmusic was scum. That's not the same thing as positively thinking he's town.

[Aquanim]

Well, I just told you what I believed at the time I wrote #172, and the honest opinion which I attempted to convey. If you don't believe that, then I don't think there's any point in my discussing this further.

I've seen games compromised by replacers talking about their reads and play so I'll wait to discuss this with your replacement.

I thought you scumread that person? You are talking to them like they're town.

Speaking to people as if they're scum doesn't generally get me a courteous and useful response.

I once ran a game in which a scum player "confirmed" themselves as town with statements after they publicly requested replacement. It was a gnarly problem to deal with and I'd not like to see it repeated whatever Aero's alignment.

[Aquanim]

Oh, that's not the way you're talking though.

You say one thing but claim you mean another but I think you're just scum.

You're entitled to express your opinion, I suppose.

If anyone would like to discuss my play further, go ahead; if not, we might as well discuss someone else. Having had the rug pulled out from under my thoughts on Aeronaut...

- I'd like someone besides RC to try to sell this Oddmusic case to me
- I don't like the... for lack of a better word, the superficiality of eektor's posts. The posts below are what I consider his most meaningful contributions so far; they all read like lists of "A happened, then B happened, then C happened..." rather than trying to understand the mentality of other players. I have not yet looked at his meta to see whether this is simply characteristic of him - but my vote is kind of pointless where it is at present, so:

UNVOTE: Aeronaut
VOTE: eektor

Spoiler: relevant eektor quotes

Well so far I'm leaning town on aquanim and metal.

Insidious Lemon, I'm not sure what to think. At first I thought he was town, but I didn't like the whole pushing hard on metal while trying to find an excuse to jump off the wagon. Then his exchange with metal afterwards seemed a bit fake.

Leaning scum on mykonian. I don't like the whole I think you're scummy but I will continue the RVS. Also, the I'm keeping my vote on someone who I think is town.

Leaning scum on oddmusic. I think his vote on metal was a bit opportunistic and done without much commitment to it. I don't like how nobody is even mentioning him.

VOTE: oddmusic

@Elyse If his vote wasn't RVS, I want to know why he's lying. Also, I've never even heard of a pre-game cop and I am doubtful that is normal.

Why do you think I'm scum?

He was clearly joking when he said that. You even asked if his vote was RVS or not. If you actually believed that it was possible he investigated mykonian pregame, you would have made a bigger stink over it and made him explain himself.

Then when he (again, jokingly) replies that his vote isn't RVS, you ask him seriously why he would unvote someone he knows to be scum. But then in your next post, which contains all your reads, you don't even mention TheDudeAbides.

It just doesn't seem like a logical thought process for town. To me, it seems like scum who is hesitant and unsure of how to deal with someone claiming things that you already know the answer to.

I'm sorry but I just don't see that as a joke. When I asked to make sure his vote was RVS, he said no. I take that as he had a reason to vote for mykonian. And I didn't put him on my reads because I'm still figuring him out.

Now I don't see how you can think my actions with him are scum motivated. Wouldn't scum who knew he had to be joking just let it slide rather than confront him to make sure he was actually doing an RVS instead of a real vote? Also, so your motivation to vote me had nothing to do with my reads and vote on oddmusic and solely on my interaction with the dude?

[Aquanim]

You just jumped from

1) A lurker.

to

2) The person who the town player who has been strongest is already on.

These are rather safe picks, no?

I'm voting for the people I consider likely to flip scum, and who I think I can accomplish something by voting.

I'm really not sure why you keep choosing to address these comments to me, either. What do you think you're accomplishing?

[Aquanim]

who I think I can accomplish something by voting.

How does this pool differ from the first pool?

I'm still leaning slightly scum on the Aeronaut slot, but voting and trying to discuss a slot currently being replaced is a waste of my time.

[Aquanim]

Just did ISO reads. Myko looks town because of this post:

I think I'm voting someone town.

This seems pretty slender to hang a townread on. Not sure I understand what you're getting at, but given your respective joindates I suspect you have much more experience with Mykonian than I do, so I suppose it's quite possible you see something meaningful here I don't.

OddMusic looks pretty bad IMO. #156 was an overreaction out of nowhere and some of the reactions to the wagon against him kind of look like scum bussing/distancing when they're caught off guard by momentum building against a partner.

I assume this means you don't think RC's posts preceding #156 comparing Oddmusic's posts to a scumclaim were provocative, since you'd have to think that to think #156 was an "overreaction out of nowhere".
Which of the reactions in particular to Oddmusic's wagon strike you as scummy? The only reaction I remember being significantly discussed was mine...

RC also looks pretty bad, mostly for the way he handled the OddMusic/Aquanim thing. He pushes OM with conviction, then drops it to advocate for a policy lynch on Aquanim (which is itself a weird thing to do this early on D1), then finds a reason to scumread Aquanim later on.

...which makes your scumread on RC for pursuing that angle rather strange.

Taly looks just as bad upon re-reading his slot. Myko makes a good point about the wording of #176, and I also don't like this post:

But about Aquanim, I kind of agree with this, at least until Elyse goes into depth about why Aquanims behavior was scummy. Which was why my previous vote for Eektor was over RVS. (Since I still thought seriousness for discussion was still being founded.)

It looks like a half-stance he can use to change his mind later.

It doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me for a townie to keep their options open in expectation of new data, especially halfway down page 2. I for one do not have much of an opinion about a fair few of the players in this game even now since I think I lack sufficient data to make a decent read.

Then again, I don't go around proclaiming that about specific players without a good reason. I like the argument of "why bother posting this non-opinion at all" a fair bit better, though it is a thing where a new town player might not know any better.

[Aquanim]

Oh RC's definitely trying to link me and Aqua. That doesn't really explain the vote switch to me at least. The best I've got for that is this:

Especially since a scumflip on Music wouldn't say much about you but a scumflip on you would say a hell of a lot about music.

(You is Aqua is this case)

So if Aqua flips scum, I'm more likely to be scum because…Aqua chose to go after RC for voting me? That make no sense, at least to me.

The logical conclusion is that RadiantCowbells thinks that if I were scum, I would not choose to defend you in that way if you were town.

Alternately, if you were known to be scum, then that would not help to distinguish between an incorrect town Aquanim and a scumbuddy Aquanim. Which does rather lead me to question the entire basis of the associative case, but anyway...

The first part is not an entirely unreasonable conclusion but it does not seem like it should be a good enough reason to lynch a town-null read over a scum read.

[Aquanim]

...

Aquanim

- Thank you for giving me time to make good on me getting info, I know some people don't have patience in these games. So how do you feel about lurkers / low post counters?

I rather wish they'd make more posts, mostly.

My argument against Aeronaut has been somewhat misrepresented as a lurker lynch; on the contrary, in the time period where Aeronaut was actively posting a fair few people made less posts than him. My concern is that with his dozen-odd posts he didn't say anything I considered useful, genuinely inquisitive or interesting.

The only game relevant observations or questions I can find from him are in #85, which is an obvious observation and a blindingly obvious question (which had in fact already been asked and answered).

His intransigence when InsidiousLemons asked him to put his vote somewhere useful (in #87 and #91) could be argued to be town indications (something along the lines of "scum want to fit in") but that argument does not convince me.

Also where are you on Odd right now, is he closer to town or scum to you?

Vaguely scummy. The whole "woe is me, I can't come to grips with this game" is pretty classically scummy, but I don't feel it's conclusive (in that new townies could possibly feel that way too). I don't like the argument about his overreaction to pressure, for reasons previously stated (namely I don't think it's all that much of an overreaction to RC's preceding posts). RC's final point about Oddmusic's choice of words at the end of #156 is not good either.

[Aquanim]

RC's switching from me, someone she (?) supposedly had a strong scumread on, to aquanim as a policy lynch, even though I gave my wagon plenty of momentum, is giving me confidence in my vote…finally. Though I do like her posting waffles in response to me. It's a pretty fair assessment of my play to that point in the game, and I like waffles. They're tasty.

Taly and Aquanim both rushed to my defense. Could be scum buddying. Could also be town trying to stop what they think is a bad wagon.

With that in mind, could somebody explain to me the scumcase on Taly and/or Aquanim? Doesn't matter who, just want something concrete to work with.

Ugggggh... this post gives me the heebie jeebies.

I'm not sure whether the digression about waffles reflects an unconcerned and relaxed townie, or a scum trying to bulk up their posting with irrelevancies.

I don't like that he's come to no conclusions on his own about Taly and myself, but the case on Taly is indeed not particularly coherent and RC's points against me aren't all that impressive.

I guess it all boils down to "Has oddmusic legitimately been lost in this game as a townie, or is he scum?". Considering there haven't been many well-defined wagons or leaders in this game thus far the former is not totally unbelieveable... but nor is it obviously justified, the game hasn't been all THAT impenetrable.

If everything was obvious the game would be easy, I suppose. Does anyone have a read or a point about oddmusic that has less to do with with his purported difficulty in getting into this game? (I'm not even sure if that question makes sense, since it's rather defined his play so far. But whatever.)

[Aquanim]

RC - I think the push she did on Aquanim was bad. Some of the points did not make sense. After completing a game with her when she was an IC, this push seems normal play for her. I did like how she was the first to point out that Aquanim's defending oddmusic. She is possibly town for now.

Fair enough I suppose, but this doesn't seem like a new opinion to me.

Aquanim - Aquanim's defense of oddmusic makes him look like a good scum buddy for oddmusic. When the wagon started building on oddmusic, he tried to start a counterwagon on a lurker slot. Then when that fell apart he changed his vote to me which was the biggest counterwagon at that time.

Posting about oddmusic isn't the only thing I've done this game.

Taly - I really don't like his posts. He seems to care more about what others think of him than trying to figure this game out. His posts looks scummy to me but I'm trying to figure out whether he is a newb townie or a newb scummy, because I checked his games and he has no completed games on site.

The second sentence is essentially a rephrasing of what Elyse has been saying for a while (and also not very difficult to see). The third sentence is more-or-less my opinion but (like mine at this stage) it's pretty superficial.

Elyse - I'm leaning town. She's engaging most players, trying to find motivations.

This is a rather obvious read.

In short, I'm not impressed by this post. So far as I can see it's largely reads which have already been expressed by other people, and not expanded in any interesting ways. Vote stands for now.

[Aquanim]

With respect to Taly I'll get around to reading him properly sooner or later. I've been putting it off until my weekend because it's going to be work. My feel read so far is that Taly is town, and trying to help; that means one of two things:
1) I'm wrong, and I'm going to have difficulty convincing myself of that
2) I'm right, and I'm going to have even more difficulty convincing other people of that

[Aquanim]

...
Seeing that RC is still at the top of my scum list, I thought I'd just vote against her to see if I can get info. (Also because I think her play has been manipulative to some degree.)
...

What do you mean by "manipulative", and what about RadiantCowbells' posting makes you think that?
Do you think it's scum-indicative on RC, or do you just want to lynch her for it regardless of alignment?

[Aquanim]

eektor

: Mixed feelings. Aqua makes a somewhat solid case about superficiality but he's been posting alright since then and I think I like him a little. I don't really know what to make of him overall though, I think I'm going to withhold judgement for a while.
Verdict: Null. No significant lean. Convince me, if anyone would like to try.

Which posts that eektor has made since then do you classify as "alright"? This is a serious question - I don't see any. There's some not-spectacular reply to a post by Elyse and #278 which largely reads like rather basic reads already expressed by other people.

Note: the above vote puts Taly at L-2, by my count.

[Aquanim]

My argument against Aeronaut has been somewhat misrepresented as a lurker lynch; on the contrary, in the time period where Aeronaut was actively posting a fair few people made less posts than him. My concern is that with his dozen-odd posts he didn't say anything I considered useful, genuinely inquisitive or interesting.

Who portrayed your arguement against Aero in such a fashion?

Aeronaut himself:

And before I go, just reading the last page, please lynch Aqua for trying to lynch a lurker slot 9 pages into the game.

Also RadiantCowbells:

You just jumped from

1) A lurker.

to

2) The person who the town player who has been strongest is already on.

These are rather safe picks, no?

There might be others, these are the two I remember off the top of my head.

[Aquanim]

In the meantime, does anyone have any reason to think Aeronaut's town? If you do, I'd like to discuss it.

In hindsight I probably should've @'d him considering my post was five after this but whatever

I noticed your post and that it was a reply to mine but your post didn't really leave a lot of room for discussion and I was occupied with other things.

[Aquanim]

...What?

pisskop, can you explain what you're getting at?

[Aquanim]

I guess. The notes don't really seem to say much useful though... it's a "look, I've read the whole thread" kind of post, rather than one playing to a town objective, so far as I can see.

[Aquanim]

EBWOP

@Pisskop

: if you consider Taly's #239 inherently lynchable in as of itself why is he not in your top three scumreads?

Preliminary thought on TheDudeAbides is that he hasn't done anything I consider particularly questionable so far but he's skating by without having contributed a whole lot. Could certainly be scum but I don't have positive reason to believe it yet. If you have a reason beyond him lurking I'd like to see it.

[Aquanim]

In fairness, eektor had previously mentioned Mini 1642 in passing in #278, and I imagine that's why RC brought it up.

(Though I was not in said game I was vaguely familiar with it before signing up to this game, and knowing about that game has indeed coloured my opinion of RC's town play. I laughed when I read #196, under the circumstances.)

[Aquanim]

Aqua, what exactly do you think you've done for town this game?

Generated information, so far. Eventually I'll find something which convinces me someone is mafia, and then I'll push for their lynch.


Cowbells, what exactly do you think you've done for town this game?

[Aquanim]

I built cases on two people.

There are two major wagons today on those two people.

Anything else?

No, no. Elyse pushed the case on Taly. You sheeped on.

The "cases" you made against myself and Oddmusic are going... nowhere.

Try again.

[Aquanim]

Anyway I'm tired of this.

if it suits you, continue criticizing me because of my play in a game we're not even playing.

Perhaps you shouldn't have started something in #196 you couldn't finish.

[Aquanim]

On you? you're not even necessarily a scumread, I just dislike you.

Oddmusic will happen as soon as I'm done with Taly. don't worry your pretty little head about it.

Oh, that's not the way you're talking though.

You say one thing but claim you mean another but I think you're just scum.

With respect to #207: I am indeed not townreading or scumreading Oddmusic. I am scumreading Aeronaut. Therefore, I'd much prefer to see votes on Aeronaut as opposed to Oddmusic

Okay, now you're firmly in my scumpile.

Thanks for clarifying.

#172 makes it very clear that you consider Oddmusic town, which didn't fit into the rest of your reads and caused my confusion. Now that you've clarified that you claim to townread him, I can rest easy knowing you're scum.

Try again... again.

[Aquanim]

Bored now. RadiantCowbells is inconsistent, refuses to explain reads and is generally obnoxious but given that's entirely consistent with their towngame I think I'm going to have to leave my read at "leaning town, but wouldn't mind seeing policy lynched".

Is there anyone else here to talk to?

[Aquanim]

That would be why it's not a firm town read.

I suppose I should check your scum meta to see how well you can emulate it. Sometime. I have more pleasant uses for my time at present than reading your posts.

[Aquanim]

Sure.

[Aquanim]

@TheDudeAbides

: Your vote is still on InsidiousLemons. I don't think you've mentioned him in the above, are you still scumreading him?

[Aquanim]

I don't like the interaction between Aqua and RC. It seems fake.

Do you think you're seeing fake in the sense that RC is scum, I'm scum, or we're both scum?

[Aquanim]

@Elyse

: Can I get from you a one paragraph or so summary of why you think Taly is scum?

[Aquanim]

Actually, I could even link you to it.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p6647588

I really don't understand how post 124 was to be seen as scum mykonian, I was openly receptive for people to ask questions

Actually, I can easily explain what's bothering me with this post, and in a similar way, post 124.

Asking people to ask you questions, esspecially at this early point of the game is a defense mechanism. Explaining what you did and why you did things tends to put people at ease. Since scum hasn't really bothered to make any moves, they haven't been in tight spots yet (hey, we just finished the RVS), this is "easy". Which is wrong with this post and post 124.

The second thing that is very wrong with this post in particular is the emphasis on "openly". This is a given when you are town. The emphasis doesn't make half as much sense when you are town (you are open anyway), but makes more sense from a scum mindset "I can still be honest about my gameplay so far, there's nothing to find".

So the way I see it, Taly is a prime candidate for scum.

I don't think this is really all that good.

At the time of #124 Taly had just been voted by toolenduso; responding to a vote with a "defence mechanism" seems entirely reasonable to me. I am perhaps biased because telling people to ask me questions about my reads and actions so as to understand them is one of my primary "defence mechanisms", as a townie. It is a thing I do when my reaction to a case is "Yes, those facts have been accurately reported; do you want to know why I did what I did as town?".

As for the second, laying emphasis on the choice of words of a player who does not appear to be particularly skilled at writing clearly, concisely and accurately (no offence ) seems rather unreliable to me.

I have two questions for you:
1) Do you think Taly is willingly revealing his own reasoning for his reads and motivation for his actions?
2) Do you think Taly is trying to draw information out of other players to further his own reads?

[Aquanim]

At risk of stating the obvious, TheDudeAbides, I'd like to see who you think is most likely to be scum at the moment (presumably not InsidiousLemons?) and a conclusion about Taly. (The two may coincide I suppose.)

Having reread some of Taly's ISO so far my feeling remains that the towniness of his effort and candour outweighs the scumminess of his caving to pressure and overemphasis on defending himself. This read is ongoing.

...
This is fake content.

Does that mean you're scumreading pisskop strongly, or just that you're of the opinion it's a waste of space?

[Aquanim]

Taly doesn't have previous games. That's been said before... a fair number of times.

Are you reading the thread, mykonian?

[Aquanim]

I mean, just compare Taly and IL's lists.

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here. Is it that Taly has less scumreads than IL, and his only one stated is on RC? I would take into account that Taly left some lurkers off his list.

[Aquanim]

Taly doesn't have previous games. That's been said before... a fair number of times.

Are you reading the thread, mykonian?

I think I want a serious answer to this question.

UNVOTE: eektor
VOTE: mykonian

[Aquanim]

Aqua, whats your opinion of RE: RC and TDA?

I assume you're asking me for my reads on RadiantCowbells and TheDudeAbides.

I'm pretty sure my read on RadiantCowbells is already in the thread. tl;dr version: I'm guessing town. I don't have a reliable way to read someone this inconsistent and whatever but my feeling is that RC's posting is genuine. Wouldn't lift a finger to save RC from a lynch, though. I'd love to have some scum meta for RC but I couldn't find any in the last year.

I don't have any specific objection or problem yet with anything TheDudeAbides has posted... but he hasn't posted all that much. His lack of interaction with other players in the thread was understandable before (he does seem to tend to post at a time of day when not many people will ever be around), but in the last couple of posts I explicitly tried to interact with him and, despite him clearly being still active in the thread, he did not reply. I don't like that.

[Aquanim]

I guess Im saying you are consistently interacting w/him in such a way

Huh, I'd forgotten about that. I still don't like that I didn't get any kind of answer this time.

[Aquanim]

But sure, if it's been mentioned 5 times that taly doesn't have games, that'd be odd if I didn't catch it. Would you mind quoting those "fair number of times"?

There was this conversation:

...
I wouldn't exactly think of myself as being a very apprehensive or defensive player,

>>> this is 1 of 3 of my first mafia games I am playing on this forum(and all are still at D1) <<<

, and I have not had a lot of in-game experience outside of this. I'm trying to find a way to be more concise and shorter in my paragraphs. Aside from that, I'm just thinking it is easier for others to get on the same page as me if I explain my position, it gives people more upfront information about me instead of them needing to poke information from me. I am receptive to peoples questions because I want a better idea of who is most likely to be town or scum as much as they do. I don't really get why me justifying my position on my actions seem panicky, I'm just doing what I think is best to put things in perspective.

@Taly

: I believe that stating how many games you are in and that they are all in day 1 is acceptable (I mean, they are verifiable facts after all) but don't say anything more about ongoing games. (You probably know this already but I think it's best to be explicit.)
...

@Taly

: I believe that stating how many games you are in and that they are all in day 1 is acceptable (I mean, they are verifiable facts after all) but don't say anything more about ongoing games. (You probably know this already but I think it's best to be explicit.)

In the light of his #121 what is your read on toolenduso?

@InsidiousLemons

: I'm presently voting you; would you like to make an argument as to where my vote would be better placed?

- This is also a response to Insidious' post previous to this ones.

--- I'm sorry if I overlooked a minor rule in speaking about ongoing games, (even if it didn't really give insight beyond me verifying how much I know), I just said that to tell you guys that trying to find a meta or specific strategy about me right now isn't something to get very far, since that's something I'm doing myself, I also question the theory of meta, and I don't know a lot about it specifically.

I think me coming across as defensive is more like a personality thing, I stand by what I've said so far, and even though the wording can be worked on, I've said all I believe I should say about this right now.

It also came up in a post of eektor's:

...
Taly - I really don't like his posts. He seems to care more about what others think of him than trying to figure this game out. His posts looks scummy to me but I'm trying to figure out whether he is a newb townie or a newb scummy, because I checked his games and he has no completed games on site.
...

I think I've mentioned Taly being a new player in more general terms a couple of times in passing, and I imagine others have as well.

[Aquanim]

either way, to get back on track then, I'd take pbpe's or lists of reads esspecially early in the game as scummy then, having no contrary evidence that a player (taly in this case) just likes to do those.

Putting aside the fact that it is a listpost, what do you think of the content of the post in question (#259)?

[Aquanim]

EBWOP: Do you also read InsidiousLemons' list post (in #292) as scummy

a priori

?

[Aquanim]

EBWOP: Do you also read InsidiousLemons' list post (in #292) as scummy

a priori

?

yes.

Also pisskops pbpa, though you could see that as a catchup post if you feel like it. I wouldn't put it as harshly as the dude did, but that did further confirm that the dude is likely town.

I'm not sure where you get the conclusion from. Pisskop's post was so... well, pointless... that criticising it seems pretty obvious and easy to do, even for a scum-Dude.

Unless you're saying you think pisskop is scum and that therefore TDA is town by reverse association? (Which also seems questionable.)

[Aquanim]

...
I think all of the questions are forced, just there because taly feels he should be asking questions. I don't think any of them could result in an answer that could get things going or expose something.

I think I agree with you that asking so many people questions wasn't very useful (I can't say I know how many of them got answered but I doubt it was more than half). I also agree with you that they're there (or at least, most of them are there) because Taly feels he should be asking questions, rather than anything specific he was trying to accomplish with each.

I don't think it's especially scummy though. I imagine if you go and read a town guide for newbies, one of the things it will say is "Ask people questions and try to get them talking about their reads". I suppose it'd be a while longer ago for you than for me, but I remember doing some pretty naive things in my first (and town) game.

I think only 3 of the reads in this list have any basis, of which 2 are connected. I think one of the reads posts is scummy.

Same kind of deal here. I can see "make a listpost to simulate content" as a scum motivation, or "tell everyone what I'm thinking" as a town motivation - and having decided to make a listpost for whichever reason, at this stage of the game, some of those reads aren't going to be any good. As for the scummy read, a small amount of distrust for Elyse from Taly isn't suprising given the distrust going the other way - and to be honest, if I had to say something about Elyse beyond "town", it would indeed be "town, but quite possibly is good enough to be fooling me".

This post could have been two lines. "I don't like the way rc makes a case on aquanim, who has been very open and honest about his reads, or when he doesn't have them, which I like too. I have been liking metal cyanide in the recent posts as well. vote: RC". And those two sentences wouldn't have any of the forced commitment to the game feeling that this list post gave.

Yeah, pretty much. That leaves the possibility of a townie who doesn't know any better, or a scum who doesn't know any better. I'm leaning toward the first, since I'm inclined to think a first-time scummer (disregarding ongoing games) would be hard put to it to write as much as Taly has.

[Aquanim]

With regard to the thing around 176 with Taly voting and then unvoting Mykonian, I'm not sure that I'd describe it as "Taly unvoting Mykonian under pressure from Elyse" any more than "Taly got what he wanted from voting Mykonian and didn't get around to unvoting for a couple of posts".

[Aquanim]

I'll put this back for now. Time for some sleep.

UNVOTE: mykonian
VOTE: eektor

[Aquanim]

...
This is a horrible vote.
...

You might think about how seriously I took that vote.

With regard to the thing around 176 with Taly voting and then unvoting Mykonian, I'm not sure that I'd describe it as "Taly unvoting Mykonian under pressure from Elyse" any more than "Taly got what he wanted from voting Mykonian and didn't get around to unvoting for a couple of posts".

Why are you so bent on defending Taly?
Have

you

been reading the thread? Did you notice that Taly admitted my pressure had an influence on his unvote? And did you notice that what he "got from mykonian" must not have been enough considering he's voting him again after mykonian barely posted in between his unvote and revote? You seem to be making tons of excuses for Taly when his play has been inconsistent with what he's saying.

Also what tool said.

I have two reasons for defending Taly:
- I think he is both town and seriously trying to play the game. If we lynch Taly and he flips town, I will feel bad because I failed to save a townie who put serious effort into trying to play the game and win.
- It's a big issue in the thread at present and arguing with people about it allows me to discern their alignments.

I'd be talking about my scumreads but they're all replacing, going VLA or lurking. (It's starting to seriously annoy me.)

As for the the thing with Taly's unvote... I buy the "was reminded by pressure that he should really be unvoting" more than the "got scared as scum into unvoting", and I also buy that he might return to voting Mykonian as town. In short, despite the inconstencies, I think he's town. I am starting to think that I'm trying to fight something I won't win though.

[Aquanim]

@Boonskies

: Let's hear about your scumreads sometime, yes?

[Aquanim]

How about now?
UNVOTE: eektor
VOTE: Boonskiies

[Aquanim]

The point is that if he doesn't have an answer to that question ALREADY, then the reads he stated in his first post were made-up and therefore he's (probably) scum.

If it turns out that he does have both scumreads and reasons for those scumreads, and I'm satisfied, then and only then does that vote get retracted.

If you think I'm scum more than you think Taly is, then vote me.

[Aquanim]

Well, come on then. If you think I'm scum, let's see the case, Elyse.

[Aquanim]

Well, come on then. If you think I'm scum, let's see the case, Elyse.

This is a good start.

A good start to what?

[Aquanim]

I'm daring Elyse to call, right enough. I'm town, and as such, not bluffing.

[Aquanim]

As for why? I haven't been lynched in years - and when people have tried, I learned a lot about them.

[Aquanim]

It simply seems more defensive than it has to be. Has Elyse been swiping at you?

Yeah, Elyse hasn't trusted me all game.

Spoiler:

Hai mykonian, tool, Aeronaut, and RC!!!

This is my first game in like a year I think. (Probably more like 6 months lol)

ANYWAY

VOTE: Aquanim

Three votes on page 1 is SCUMMY even if two of them were the same person in a pointless vote/unvote.

I'm surprised no one else has voted for him tbh. Catch up folks.

I don't like the interaction between Aqua and RC. It seems fake.

Ok seriously what is the point of that?

Instead of actually using your vote to get Boonskiies to answer your question, it just looks like you are proving you use votes to get answers to make your mykonian vote look better. Obviously you are going to retract the vote, so it doesn't actually add pressure to Boonskiies.

I think Aquanim is scum. I'm not sure if he's Taly's buddy or if he's WKing Taly...

See, that kind of bravado seems to beg somebody to do a quick meta-dive.

If you like. Most of my history in that regard is offsite though.

A player who is as active as Elyse would naturally bring their gaze down upon everybody. Do you resent Ellie's probing?

I don't mind being probed at all. Being called (presumably) the scummiest player in the game is going a little further than that.

[Aquanim]

EBWOP: ...and if someone calls me scum, as opposed to poking at me, I'm going to hold them accountable for that read.

[Aquanim]

You could answer a point TheDudeAbides has made about you, pisskop. (Among others.)

Namely, what was the point of #304?

[Aquanim]

shut up aqua.

Are you complaining about my spamming? If so I'll try to tone it down a little. Does this mean you think I'm town?

I'm going out so I don't have time to post a full case right now. I haven't suspected you the entire game but that was a huge overreaction on your part after I simply mentioned that I think you are scum.

I take people saying that they think I am scum, particularly that they think I am scum over their current vote target that they've appeared quite confident about, rather seriously.

In particular, since it's their only read I know with certainty is wrong, I very much like to see their reasons for thinking it - it makes it much easier to read them, since the only possibilities are "they believe this and are mistaken" or "they don't believe this and are scum".

[Aquanim]

I want an answer to the second part, too.

@Mykonian

: What is your read on me?

[Aquanim]

429...
Even when/if I'm mislynch, they'll see that I am a town power role... I wonder who they'll blame scum on then, seeing how they're the most active on my wagon.
...

Are you claiming that you are a power role beyond being a vanilla townie?


To be clear, if you are, this is not me asking you to to say what that role is, if you have deliberately not said exactly what it is.

[Aquanim]

- Your defense of Taly has been nonsensical at times. Taly admits to things, like my case on him being legit and his dishonesty at a certain point, yet you still act as if Taly has been acting town. I understand defending a townread, but you are going to more lengths than usual, unless your townread on Taly is THAT strong. And if it is, then lol.

I don't dig huge holes for myself defending another player unless I'm very confident they're town - and in this case, I am. My gut says he's town, and it's not often wrong.

- Your interaction with RC was bizarre. This particularly is horrible from both ends:

But if I was scum, wouldn't I do precisely that in order to get you to think that?

That would be why it's not a firm town read.

I suppose I should check your scum meta to see how well you can emulate it. Sometime. I have more pleasant uses for my time at present than reading your posts.

But worse from yours because you actually use RC's own WIFOM to make him less of a townread. It makes no sense.

That conversation didn't accomplish a whole lot, no. Not one of my finer moments, but I'm a sucker for pissing matches.

- Your votes on mykonian and Boonskiies to get them to answer questions are pointless. As I already explained, it seems like your Boonskiies vote was done simply to make your mykonian vote look better.

That is the conclusion that you'd come to, if you assumed I was scum. Each of those votes had a purpose, though perhaps not spectacularly good ones. Mykonian had not answered my question and I wanted to know whether he was still active in the thread or was no longer reading; I figured a vote on him was likely to shake him out of his tree. The vote for Boonskies is a serious vote, I'm scumreading the slot and will continue to do so until if and when I'm satisfied his reads are genuine.

- You completely overreacted to me mentioning a scumread on you.

I think my only answer to this one is "I did that as town. Deal with it." If you have a specific reason why you think that reaction was scummy then perhaps I can say something meaningful.

- You were rolefishing with Taly. What is the point of pointing out that he was potentially softclaiming a PR? What if someone (scum perhaps) missed it amidst Taly's horribly formatted walls and only saw it because you pointed it out? There is nothing protown about it because now Taly must be run up to a claim or else we have to deal with a shitty softclaim we can't hold him accountable to down the road because he could claim any PR.

I'm getting tired of debates going around and around because Taly said something vague. It had already been said, it might as well be clarified before we get into some mindbogglingly stupid argument about whether he intended to claim a role or not.

This reads like you're throwing mud at the wall and seeing what sticks.

[Aquanim]

I feel bad for wanting to push metal, but hes acting a lot like 585. scummetal

In what way?

[Aquanim]

Ive reliably scumread in all our games regardless of alignment >.<

I only see this game and Open 585 as games he's played. Are those the only two games you're referring to, is he a smurf you know the identity of, have you played offsite, or something else?

[Aquanim]

Ugh, terminology from my previous site. I meant "alternate account".

[Aquanim]

no, in any case, not a sock.

I just think he would make a good scum. With odd. I specifically want people's opinions on the strength of that association.

My opinion based on glancing over their ISOs is that I don't like pre-flip association cases or find them to be reliable, but if I did I would like this one. They kind of mention one another occasionally, OC voted Metal earlier on and Metal has OC somewhere low on his scum shortlist now, but I'm not feeling much of any passion behind it from either side.

Metal has been slipping under my radar in general so far, I'll have to rectify that.

[Aquanim]

...

Words fail me.

Can you take your second shot today, pisskop? (I kind of doubt it, but might as well ask.)

[Aquanim]

Okay.

Whoever we're lynching today, I'm going to be really annoyed if the day ends before we get more out of eektor, Boonskies, TheDudeAbides, and some more recent thoughts out of InsidiousLemons and MetalCyanide.

This past night has demonstrated to me that some lulzwagon and/or lulzhammer might happen while I'm asleep and I intend to head that off now.

[Aquanim]

Also, Aquanim 517 - I know it is difficult, but can you please tell me your thoughts on this?

Spoiler: Taly's Mourning for Odd

***

Taly grabs a tissue from RC, he begins to cry and perpetually blow his nose in it. He then hands it back to RC but RC slaps him across the face. He then throws it at Aqua, whereas Aqua steps back in utter disgust.

Taly then takes off his glove and starts smacking mykonian in the face with it.***

Umm... are you talking about the oddmusic shot, or your little story?

If the former, the oddmusic shot wasn't terrible, I suppose... it's cleared up what was a question mark or a scumread for many people. I rather personally wish he'd shot the Boonskies slot - though it would have answered fewer questions I think that slot's going to be a pain to deal with and was much more likely to flip scum. Shooting you would have cleared up a lot of questions about this game but if he's kind of townreading you, thinks you're going to be lynched anyway, etc. I can see why he did not.

I am reassured a little about the quality of my own reads, too, even if the best read I had on him was "perhaps slightly leaning town, but this case on him is bad".

I also admit to a little jealousy for oddmusic. I'm remembering why I don't sign up for Mafia games.

If the latter, I don't like used tissues. Feel free to slap Mykonian in the face, though.

[Aquanim]

Who do you think is the best lynch so far?

Tossup between eektor and Boonskies for me. I'd be pushing it harder but they both keep going away and I suspect I don't have enough material to convince enough players for a lynch yet.

What are your town and scum reads?

I don't like giving away my town reads for no clear purpose. My shortlist for scum would be eektor, Boonskies, TheDudeAbides, Metalcyanide and mykonian. I would be suprised to see less than two mafia in that list. It would mildly suprise me to see three (most games are not that easy in my experience).

*Noob Question* What's a policy lynch?

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Policy_Lynch

[Aquanim]

...
RC who is Annie? I'm assuming this is the Boon slot.

What makes you think that?

Pisskop I'm assuming you are using your second shot before the end of D1.
...

...
Can you take your second shot today, pisskop? (I kind of doubt it, but might as well ask.)

No.

[Aquanim]

I don't know how the Boonskiies slot would have been the best kill. I have absolutely no associative tells (not that I usually do, I'm pretty good at that as scum), and as town I will become a major boon to help us in winning. I'm just a little inactive at the moment due to replacing in at the end of Day 1. I usually don't have much of a presence Day 1 anyways, as my scum hunting/reading abilities come to full effect with NKA.

We're barely halfway through day 1 now, I scumread the previous occupant of your slot, and I like policy vigilante shots of players who aren't contributing and aren't explaining their reads, even when asked. At the moment, that's you.

(Why that policy? I would prefer to lynch the player whose wagon will provide meaningful discussion and shoot the player whose wagon will not, rather than the opposite.)

[Aquanim]

...
Oddmusic and Aquanim are super scum. More on this when I get to a computer.

VOTE: Oddmusic

I want an explanation for BOTH of these scumreads. Yes, I know the Oddmusic read is invalidated by his flip. I still want to see the reasons why you were confident enough to call him "super scum".

[Aquanim]

I imagine that RadiantCowbells saying they had checked a

League of Legends

character was intended as a refutation.

(I did not notice the link to RC's avatar until eektor said something about it. In my defence, I'm not a LoL player.)

[Aquanim]

League of Legends is that game where you play pretend WoW or Runescape, right?
. I no longer pay these new fad games.

I... guess you could say that? It's somewhere between those games and the earlier Warcrafts.

I imagine that RadiantCowbells saying they had checked a

League of Legends

character was intended as a refutation.

(I did not notice the link to RC's avatar until eektor said something about it. In my defence, I'm not a LoL player.)

That was after I asked.

RC claimed to be checking "Annie" in the original claim; under the circumstances I don't see how it could have been intended by RC as anything other than a joke, and not to be taken seriously.

If you're voting RC for making a bad joke... well at least that's consistent with the observed facts.

If you're voting RC for making a fakeclaim I have a problem with that, because I don't think one was made.

[Aquanim]

...It's taken me this long to realise you actually seriously claimed Anytime vigilante. :/

I think I blanked it out since such a role seemed obviously non-normal. (According to the wiki, even a straight Dayvig isn't normal. This variant isn't even listed.)

That being said... the proof is in the pudding, I suppose. Oddmusic is pretty clearly dead.

[Aquanim]

Finally done with ISOs.

Shallow townread on Boon for acting the way I remember him acting when he replaced into a town slot in the puppy-themed newbie I modded. I hope to actually go back and look at that so I can feel more sure about this.
...

I'll take your word for this for now. If this is his town meta, what makes you think that it would not be trivially easy for him to emulate it as scum?

[Aquanim]

I don't want to be looking at the last page any more. Ba-da-bump.

...
Also, from experience, even considering a mafia dayvig is insane. You could stretch it to an SK but in a mini that's even seriously awkward. Piss is town or we'll find quick enough that he isn't. It's a waste of time to talk about it.

The only way I could see a mafia dayvig in this game is if the scumteam has only two members. As you say, it's exceedingly unlikely and not really worth considering.

@mykonian

: Am I an interesting person to talk to?

[Aquanim]

...
Is it perhaps that he's scum, who don't want to die, who's primary focus is not

other

people, it's themselves.
...

I'd be interested to know how you distinguish Taly's focus on himself from the fact that the main focus of the thread at large is, in fact, on Taly.

[Aquanim]

I can't help but think that the focus of the thread on active players today (it's mostly been on Taly, RadiantCowbells, myself, and some on Elyse and Mykonian) is a classic way for town to lose.

I think there are some people scumreading Taly simply because there is much more to be scumread about him, for the sole reason that he's posted so much more than most. Since eektor, TDA and especially boonskiies aren't saying much of anything, the actual volume of the reasons to scumread them is less. That does not, however, make them any less likely to be mafia than Taly.

Further, it encourages them to keep lurking whatever their alignment, since not only are they not being pursued for it, they are getting a demonstration in the thread of what's likely to happen to them if they DO speak up.

[Aquanim]

Pedit hey Aqua.

How do you feel about Cyanide?

Ambivalent. The reaction to your "fakeclaim" is pretty bizarre but I can't really see why he'd be much more likely to make the mistake as scum, or to pretend that he had. I agree that the way he's still sticking to it even after it's been explained is the worst part about it.

I haven't looked at the rest of his history in a while. I'll see about doing that today and get back to you. I don't recall anything about him which I found super-townie at the time he said it, at any rate.

[Aquanim]

I can't help but think that the focus of the thread on active players today (it's mostly been on Taly, RadiantCowbells, myself, and some on Elyse and Mykonian) is a classic way for town to lose.

I think there are some people scumreading Taly simply because there is much more to be scumread about him, for the sole reason that he's posted so much more than most. Since eektor, TDA and especially boonskiies aren't saying much of anything, the actual volume of the reasons to scumread them is less. That does not, however, make them any less likely to be mafia than Taly.

Further, it encourages them to keep lurking whatever their alignment, since not only are they not being pursued for it, they are getting a demonstration in the thread of what's likely to happen to them if they DO speak up.

So basically your saying hey stop looking at the active players and look at the lurkers?

Not quite. I'm saying "look at the lurkers as well".

[Aquanim]

I don't understand how a townie reading the thread would come to the conclusion that Elyse is a lurker, post count or no post count.

[Aquanim]

All right then, Metal, I'll ask you. Why does a RadiantCowbells flip tell us more about the game than a flip on, say, Taly?

[Aquanim]

...
I think RC is scum but definitely isn't playing a bad game. Hell my interactions with RC made me go from Town read to scum read, in some eyes, in about 3 pages lol

So you're saying that you think RadiantCowbells intended in some way to get you scumread by other players? How was that done?

[Aquanim]

I'm going to have to reassess Taly again and decide whether his current attitude to the game makes sense based on what's come before. That will, however, take a while.

For now:
UNVOTE: Boonskiies
VOTE: Metalcyanide

Read his ISO, didn't see anything towny enough to outweigh his misrepresntation of Elyse's activity and the informational value of a RC lynch. He's been scumreading IL and RC all game and I don't see much of anything to indicate that his reads are shifting with new data. I'm obviously not going to get a Boonskiies quasi-policy lynch today; eektor's still on the table for me but Metal will do.

[Aquanim]

I'm going to have to reassess Taly again and decide whether his current attitude to the game makes sense based on what's come before. That will, however, take a while.

For now:
UNVOTE: Boonskiies
VOTE: Metalcyanide

Read his ISO, didn't see anything towny enough to outweigh his misrepresntation of Elyse's activity and the informational value of a RC lynch. He's been scumreading IL and RC all game and I don't see much of anything to indicate that his reads are shifting with new data. I'm obviously not going to get a Boonskiies quasi-policy lynch today; eektor's still on the table for me but Metal will do.

False, I've only scum read IL early and then I dropped it I see him as probable town now.

...You're correct, my apologies. That doesn't reverse the read, though.

[Aquanim]

There's not much to be believed or disbelieved about a VT claim. At the moment I'm voting you which would imply I don't think you're town. As for tomorrow I'm not sure, it would depend a fair bit on the nightkill and pisskop's hypothetical vig shot flip (mostly hypothetical in that he may be blocked). There are not many players I would rule out.

Besides RadiantCowbells, who else are you reading as scum and why? I know you said earlier but (a) that was before the Oddmusic flip and (b) I'd like to see some more details.

pedit: I wouldn't expect many people to say who they'll be gunning for tomorrow, between my reasons above and it being potentially useful information to the scum in choosing who to NK.

[Aquanim]

I mean, I don't mind where this is going,

>> but we all know he's just bad town after all. <<

...

I don't know that at all. Why do you know that?

[Aquanim]

I indeed don't see why a mafia or scum SK would have to make a public kill. If pisskop is not town it will become obvious later. Not much point in lynching him today, even if him being anti-town is more plausible than I think it is.

I feel pretty good about at least one of these wagons being on scum on general principles.

[Aquanim]

I mean, I don't mind where this is going,

>> but we all know he's just bad town after all. <<

...

I don't know that at all. Why do you know that?

This was a serious question, Mykonian, though perhaps expressed poorly.

Why are you so sure that Metalcyanide is town, and furthermore that it's so obvious other people should be able to see it?

[Aquanim]

I indeed don't see why a mafia or scum SK would have to make a public kill. If pisskop is not town it will become obvious later. Not much point in lynching him today, even if him being anti-town is more plausible than I think it is.

I feel pretty good about at least one of these wagons being on scum on general principles.

Why would one of them have to be scum?

It's not a "has to be" quality of read... but I am not getting the feeling that this is is a town wagon v town wagon day and that scum don't care about which way it goes. Too many people sticking their neck out. I could be wrong.

[Aquanim]

It's not a "has to be" quality of read... but I am not getting the feeling that this is is a town wagon v town wagon day and that scum don't care about which way it goes. Too many people sticking their neck out. I could be wrong.

Which implies that some scum player is putting their neck out, no?
Who is that, and on whose behalf?

I'm not sure. Ask me again after a flip. It's a feeling, not a specific thing based on a particular pre-flip association I'm seeing.

[Aquanim]

@toolenduso

re #741: I think there's a few points you've missed about Metalcyanide.

Spoiler: #652

I can't help but think that the focus of the thread on active players today (it's mostly been on Taly, RadiantCowbells, myself, and some on Elyse and Mykonian) is a classic way for town to lose.

I think there are some people scumreading Taly simply because there is much more to be scumread about him, for the sole reason that he's posted so much more than most. Since eektor, TDA and especially boonskiies aren't saying much of anything, the actual volume of the reasons to scumread them is less. That does not, however, make them any less likely to be mafia than Taly.

Further, it encourages them to keep lurking whatever their alignment, since not only are they not being pursued for it, they are getting a demonstration in the thread of what's likely to happen to them if they DO speak up.

So basically your saying hey stop looking at the active players and look at the lurkers?

Not quite. I'm saying "look at the lurkers as well".

Good. I'm in full agreement.
We have a few lukers this game I feel, I think the biggest lukers right now are (no real order):
Elyse w/ 36 posts last post 28 hrs ago
TBA w/ 31 posts last post 12 hrs ago
Boon w/ 7 posts (I get he replaced in but still there should be more) last post 16 hrs ago
Tool w/ 21 posts last post 17 hrs ago
and Eektor w/ 27 posts but last posted 8 hours ago

Going through and picking out lurkers based on post count without any consideration of the actual material they've contributed indicates someone who's not seriously reading the thread IMO. As far as I'm concerned, Elyse and Tool don't belong on this list. The bit I really don't like is the implication (based on our previous conversation) that Metal believes these are the people that need pushing to produce more content. Elyse

definitely

doesn't belong on that list, and I don't see any other indication from Metal that that's what he actually believes - but that's still what he said here.

Spoiler: #122

I'm going to hold it against you but lets see how everything else goes.

For now time to get more information out of others.

Who in particular do you want to get more information out of and why?

Literarily everybody because I have only one read at the moment.

This goes back a fair way but I don't feel like Metal made good on a desire to "get more information out of others". I mean, yes, there are some questions in #244 through #282 but I don't see him really trying to accomplish a scumread, or pressure anyone, at that stage. The questions read like they were asked for the sake of asking questions. This is pretty subjective, I have to admit.

Spoiler: #282

Quick post time

Pisskop -

Just get in here when you can and give us some reads.

Taly -

Question:

Since you basically just did a read, what do you think about the people who have

not

responded? Also, what do you think about my reads?

I think we have heard from everyone except RC, who I do want to hear from but I will give just a little more time before I make a fuss about it.
I don't have any major issues with your reads. I disagree with a few, notably Tool and Odd but otherwise they seem okay. My issue with your Tool read is I feel like he hasn't said enough for you to place him on this list as just neutral, but that may be my own issues with his low post count (although his last post is extensive). Odd I feel like should be a cautious scum lean that would change to probably town if RC is were to flip scum.

With that last part said VOTE: RadiantCowbells. RC makes me nervous, I don't really like the push on Odd then the switch over to Aqua. I see this as the best D1 lynch right now and the flip, either way, would provide us with the most information.

This has been gone over before, but I simply don't think that there's any justification for the statement that a RadiantCowbells flip would give "the most information". The flip which would give the most information this day is Taly, and that's been obvious all day. Metal acknowledges that a Taly lynch would give more information in #682, for some reason which seems unrelated to me ("slips" pointed out by Elyse - I don't see why this would make a Taly lynch more informative, as opposed to (hypothetically) more likely to flip scum). That being said, I don't see why a town-Metal made that statement about an RC flip. The only way I can make that make sense is, essentially, he's scum and making it up as he goes along.

I may say more later but I'll post this for now.

[Aquanim]

Aqua

, I've understood that other than the two of us inadvertently agreeing and defending one another throughout parts of this game - we have had little direct interaction.

(Would you say this is accurate in our association so far?)

Mostly accurate, yes. I could have asked you some more questions and such but trying to interact with the people sitting on the sidelines seemed to me to be a far better proposition than getting involved in wallpost-flinging.

If I were lynched today, I wouldn't be bothered if it were out of the idea - that it'd be very informative and useful for the town. (Nevertheless, I don't want to be lynched.) You've seemed to have noticed this as well. I just want to see your vision on my lynch playing out here:

What would you do, or think, if I flipped

town?

Who would you suspect to be scum?

I'd still think Metalcyanide was scum, and I'd be very suspicious of Mykonian and InsidiousLemons in particular on your wagon at present (though I would scrutinise Elyse and tool as well). eektor and TheDudeAbides would continue to look sketchy for not taking a position on either wagon at this stage. My read on Boonskiies would likely shift one way or another based on the content he's been promising.

What would you think about my prior claims and cases on who I thought was scum?

I would probably still play my own reads, mostly. Even if I knew with certainty you're town, I know with certainty that I'm town too, and I understand my own reasons for making reads better than I understand yours... and the better I understand the reads I'm trying to push, the more convincing I am. Hiding behind other people's reads also makes me less accountable for my statements, which is something I consider almost against my win-condition as a town player.

How much of a help have I been as town - if my flip revealed that I was being truthful?

Well, you've fought back against your lynch. Even if I might wish you'd done it differently (which is to say, more concise and less wallposts) effort is all I have a right to ask for. I don't like that this day has focused just about only on you and the players attacking you (to the exclusion of encouraging other players, who I am scumreading more, to contribute) but I don't think that is something you set out to accomplish, even if it was (partially) a result of the way in which you defended yourself.

What would you do, or think, if I flipped scum? Would you think my reads on everyone would be invalid? Who do you think would be the most likely suspect

(my partner)

if I flipped scum?

Obviously if you flip scum your reads were not the genuine thoughts of a townie trying to solve the game, and therefore they are of limited use to me. I might look at them to try to work out which were serious pushes to try to get somebody lynched and which were bussing done for form's sake.
In terms of your hypothetical scumbuddies... for starters, a scum flip on you would put Elyse off the table, for a couple of days at least. I don't see her bussing you in this way as very plausible. Mykonian as your partner is slightly more plausible but I'd need an exceptionally good case to do anything about it, even if I came to that conclusion. Given that your wagon has been a primary focus of the entire day I'd be especially looking hard at the people who haven't been committing to much (eektor, TheDudeAbides, Boonskiies... yes I know he's voting for Metal but that's about all he's done, he could switch easily enough) and people trying to push an alternate wagon (which is to say, RadiantCowbells). InsidiousLemons would be entirely plausible as scum bussing you for towncred, toolenduso less so.

...I'm not sure I actually eliminated anyone there. I'm not making many townreads this game, and I'll have to rethink a lot if you flip scum.

[Aquanim]

One last thing before I go to bed though, for people in the game not named Taly. I feel like Taly asking this question:

What would you do, or think, if I flipped

town?

... What would you think about my prior claims

...which was later clarified...

Claims? Not sure what you mean about that.

my claim on being a town PR,

...makes no sense from a town POV.

Why? Because it makes no sense, if you're town, to ask people what they will think about your roleclaim if you flip town. Your role will be revealed by the mod at that point. I don't buy that even somebody with as little experience as Taly wouldn't know that. I think this comes from scum who, in the heat of argument, had a lapse in thinking hypothetically from a town perspective.

I don't think it makes sense if he's scum either. Asking "what will you think about my claim if I flip scum" is pretty pointless. My best guess (based on the context of the entire post) is that Taly was coming at the question from the perspective of "if you knew my claim was correct, do you approve of the claim?".

I was hoping to be able to convince you my read was right; Elyse and Mykonian are hopelessly tunneled or scum, but you're at least not the former (and likely not the latter, either). However my impression is that any argument I would make is of far less importance to you than the conclusions you draw yourself. And fair enough, too.

I think Taly's town, that he is trying to play the game, and that simply based on effort and the amount of material he's put into the thread he is a dreadful day 1 lynch on principle. Lynching active players early is how towns lose.

I don't think any of the above describe Metalcyanide, though he's certainly put more effort into the game than some (glares at Boonskiies). There are just too many indications (his list of lurkers, his statements about an RC flip, and more) that Metal isn't seriously thinking about his reasons for scumreading people and isn't seriously evaluating the thread.

If you're convinced that you know better than me on all of the above counts, then (so far as I'm concerned) you can vote to lynch Taly with a clear conscience. If not, we have more to discuss.

[Aquanim]

...So you're saying "nothing", and that's not just a mispost.

[Aquanim]

Well, at least we didn't waste a day lynching Taly. I don't think he enjoyed this game much, some of you might want to think about whether you were responsible for that - but that's something to consider postgame. Moving on...

I am rather unwell at the moment - I don't think I'm going to have to go V/LA but my activity and quality of thought may be unpredictable.

My preference for lynch at this stage of the suggestions made is Metal > eektor > IL, though I haven't closely examined eektor in a while and haven't looked at IL in ages.

If Pisskop is not town, there's no reason (outside of some ridiculous requirement on the role itself, which I consider implausible) for him to have used his dayshot today, rather than to spring a suprise-endgame on us a few days down the track. Anything he actually says today is basically irrelevant - he's almost certainly town with a shot remaining, and as such not a good lynch.

[Aquanim]

You're assuming he's mafia, not SK.

SK would have every reason to make a bid for towncred.

It's an even worse move as SK; sure he has towncred now... which means the mafia will shoot him until he's dead. They know he's either a town vigilante or a SK, and in either case they now want him dead. (Unless he is unlimited bulletproof on top of a single dayshot... which as roles go is simply absurd.)

Hell, if he is SK we should leave him alive and let the mafia do our dirty work for us.

[Aquanim]

I think RC's point is that no matter whether they were NK'd or vigged tonight, the role is useless.

I'm still debating with myself whether I believe the cop claim, and what bearing it has on RC's alignment. Regardless, for the reasons in #876 and #878, a pisskop lynch today is simply not going to happen, short of a LITERAL scumclaim from him. Which he has not made.

[Aquanim]

...
ok, I put it a bit strongly, but I'm seeing cyanide being voted for being cyanide. I mean, I see where people are coming from, it looks dodgy, but it doesn't do him favors regardless of his allignment. So idk, it looks like a typical day 1 mislynch, if you ask me. That kind of players get weeded out early, usually.

How do you know what a town-Metalcyanide looks like?

[Aquanim]

Actually, let me do this up properly.

• Metalcyanide didn't commit to either of the two wagons of the day,
  even though he was one of them
  : he did not vote for Taly, despite it being in his own best interest self-preservation-wise to do so. Metalcyanide did not claim to be townreading Taly; he started out non-committal on the Taly lynch (see #606 and #645 among others), and only moved to suspecting Taly later (see #682 and #719 among others). Despite Taly moving up to being his scumread (due to some vague excuse about "Elyse pointed out some things"), and it being in his best interest to do so to avoid being lynched,
  Metalcyanide still did not vote Taly
  , instead opting to leave his vote on RadiantCowbells for reasons that made absolutely no sense (something about RC's adorable-cop claim and RC giving "more information", which MC later admitted to be false).
  
  As far as I'm concerned the most likely explanation for MC not voting Taly is that he is scum, knew that Taly was town, and wanted to avoid responsibility for Taly's mislynch. Note that this DOES NOT mean I think other people on Taly's wagon are necessarily town - most everyone who was actually on on the Taly wagon I would fully expect to have the guts to be responsible for a mislynch as scum, especially w.r.t. a townie as mislynchable as Taly.
  
  
  
• Metalcyanide has been asking questions in the day but I don't see how they were, in general, aimed at improving his reads. I don't see him trying to improve his RadiantCowbells read, trying to understand why other people were townreading RadiantCowbells, or trying much (beyond token efforts) to drive a wagon on RadiantCowbells. He seemed quite content to sit around while people pushed up wagons on Taly (and himself, to a lesser extent) and not influence the outcome of the day.
  
  Similarly I see no evidence that he was trying to improve his read on InsidiousLemons earlier in the day (around #115) or influence other people to agree with his case. Metal just said "I think IL is scum" and then... dropped it.
  
  
  
• Previous points I made in #795

If this isn't enough reason to lynch Metalcyanide, I can elaborate on these or go get some more.

I don't understand how Mykonian is townreading Metalcyanide for "being himself" and "making so many posts that some of them are awkward" when neither of those two arguments occured to him in talking about Taly, who was far more idiosyncratic and far more spammy than Metal.

[Aquanim]

Metalcyanide didn't commit to either of the two wagons of the day, even though he was one of them: he did not vote for Taly, despite it being in his own best interest self-preservation-wise to do so.

...

As far as I'm concerned the most likely explanation for MC not voting Taly is that he is scum, knew that Taly was town, and wanted to avoid responsibility for Taly's mislynch.

Sentence one explains why cyanide would be absolved of responsibility, sentence two somehow states that he's scummy because he doesn't want the responsibility.
Sentence one describes how voting taly would make sense for scum (they tend to be big about self preservation).

So the logic you are trying to put together that something

odd

is scummy is awkward. I'm not denying that it's odd, but I think that might be because cyanide is an odd guy, because for sure your logic doesn't actually explain his actions.

Yes, Metal voting for Taly would be justifiable under the circumstances. In fact, there isn't any good reason I can see why he didn't. His being nervous about committing to a mislynch he believed would go through, as scum, is the best reason (of a collection of not-that-good reasons) that I can see. Even if in my opinion he could have gotten away with it on the pretext of self-preservation, he might not have felt that he wanted to risk it unless necessary. A good scum player would almost certainly have switched to Taly but I don't think Metal is particularly good or experienced as scum.

An alternate hypothesis (which would be more plausible as an action from Metal, though the conditions are a bit of a leap of faith) is that one or both of his scumbuddies were already on the Taly wagon, and (especially in the case of both scumbuddies) he was nervous about committing such a large number of the scum-team's votes to a single mislynch wagon.

Both possibilities make sense of his positioning himself to jump onto the Taly wagon (by giving a scumread on Taly) without actually doing it.

[Aquanim]

In fact, there isn't any good reason I can see why he didn't.

Bingo. This is the heart of your case. You don't understand his action, and after that you are bending yourself in all kinds of shapes to explain it as being scum. Just look how many words and circumstances you need to make that into a scumread. You can analyse your own logic easily enough.

And again, I'm not doubting that cyanides actions are inexplicable. This is just one example as well. Doesn't mean he's scum per sé. Just means he approaches the game differently than you and I. I'm not terribly interested in lynching someone for that, esspecially when there are better options (plural)

So... you're ignoring the point that Metalcyanide was less committal than eektor/TDA despite having better towny reason to commit, and every other reason I brought up, to claim that one particular aspect of it is illogical. Without explaining what makes it illogical.

And then you claim that eektor is a better lynch, but not explaining it at all except with some vague statement about his activity... that for some reason didn't occur to you when I tried to push eektor as an alternative to a Taly lynch earlier.

I applaud you for trying, Mykonian, but this is a scumbuddy you should not have tried to save.

[Aquanim]

In all seriousness, "you needed three sentences to explain why that statement makes sense" isn't even an argument as to why it's wrong or illogical. You're trying to paint my argument as something it isn't, and you're not going to get away with it.

[Aquanim]

I think RC's point is that no matter whether they were NK'd or vigged tonight, the role is useless.

I'm still debating with myself whether I believe the cop claim, and what bearing it has on RC's alignment. Regardless, for the reasons in #876 and #878, a pisskop lynch today is simply not going to happen, short of a LITERAL scumclaim from him. Which he has not made.

Dodging the topic? This is pretty much everything that needs to be said about it, IMO.

For the record, I would at least give thought to lynching pisskop if he's not dead a few days from now... but lynching a claimed PR day 1, who has already proved that they in fact have a power, is not a thing I am going to do.

If you in fact proceed to not play the game and selfvote, I imagine we'll policy lynch you sooner or later. I don't tolerate selfvotes.

[Aquanim]

@Aqua, why do you not believe my cop claim.

Because it reads like an attempt to make the game focused about only you and your scumreads to the exclusion of winning the game or pro-town motivations, which is entirely consistent with my impression of you as a player. Get mad about that if you like, but you're asking for the truth, so...

I suppose it's possible you're doing this as scum as a hail-mary to not get shot by a vigilante. I'm not sure how probable that possibility is but I have better things to do today than pursue that. I imagine it will resolve itself with time.

OTOH, considering town would have no protective powers and town roleblocker is kind of underwhelming, I can almost believe a rb/2-shot vig/cop against a suitably stacked scum team. Seems rather unlikely but I wouldn't completely rule it out.

And, yes, it's technically possible you're telling the truth and that pisskop is indeed anti-town. If he is, we'll deal with him another day.

p-edit: I would like to give pisskop some guidelines about who to shoot, that much is true.

[Aquanim]

Not guide lines. A specific shot that if it doesn't happen merits an auto lynch.

Would you have been fucking happier if I just sat back and let a claimed vig N1 cop?

Can you actually consider my position, because there's really not much else I can do besides this at this point.

I am considering your position. I think you and the town in general would have been better served by inquiring who pisskop planned to shoot and verifying that he in fact intended to kill you before claiming, but it's done now.

I don't like the idea of giving a vigilante a specific shot on the offchance that scum have a protective role of some kind (not particularly standard, but under the circumstances of this game, not entirely unbelievable). For preference I would give him a shortlist. A claimed cop would be unlikely to be on that shortlist, barring exceptionally good reasons to the contrary.

Even better, if the role works that way, he might want to hold the shot until tomorrow and take another unblockable and unprotectable shot. That does raise the possibility of him dying between now and then but if he shoots a townie we probably lose ANOTHER mislynch (between the first shot and the modkill) so it would not be a total disaster. It also confirms that the second shot was a result of his power as claimed and not something he's covered up with a scum or serial killer standard NK.

[Aquanim]

Without explaining what makes it illogical.

I did. You didn't catch it somehow.
...

No, you really didn't.

In fact, there isn't any good reason I can see why he didn't.

Bingo. This is the heart of your case. (1) You don't understand his action, and after that you are bending yourself in all kinds of shapes to explain it as being scum. (2) Just look how many words and circumstances you need to make that into a scumread. (3) You can analyse your own logic easily enough.

And again, I'm not doubting that cyanides actions are inexplicable. This is just one example as well. Doesn't mean he's scum per sé. (4) Just means he approaches the game differently than you and I. I'm not terribly interested in lynching someone for that, esspecially when there are better options (plural)

(1) I don't understand why Metal would do what he did as town. I have a plausible explanation why he did it as mafia.
(2) The fact that I took a few sentences to explain why Metal doing what he did as scum doesn't mean that the explanation doesn't make sense.
(3) You fobbed off the "analyse your own logic" to me, rather than attempting to explain it yourself.
(4) Everyone approaches the game differently to me. Some of them are town, and I can tell despite them playing differently to me. Some of them are scum, and again I can tell. Not voting for someone who you think is scum, and the primary counterwagon to yourself, and in preference making a vote which you admit doesn't actually have any basis, is NOT a town stylistic difference. It's scum.

You didn't explain at all why you think my point was illogical; you waved your hands around, explained nothing, and hoped nobody would notice.

[Aquanim]

...
otoh, you could also argue for yourself that 1+1=3 and be utterly convinced you are right.

By the way, trying to instill doubt in me by comparing my argument to something ludicrous and making a false comparison isn't going to fly, either, and I advise you to not try.

[Aquanim]

I answered that already, Mykonian. I'll say it again, just in case someone who isn't scum doesn't get it the first time.

It is my opinion that Metalcyanide could have gotten away with voting for Taly whatever his alignment.

The most likely possibility as to why

Metalcyanide

did not think that (which he clearly did not, since he did not make that vote, despite having Taly as a scumread) is that he is scum, knew Taly was town, and did not want to get on the Taly wagon (either because he was afraid he would be held accountable for it, or because there were too many scum on it already). He positioned his reads such that he could vote Taly if he had to in order to escape being lynched himself, but did not want to commit to that unless necessary.

The "too many scum already on Taly" is a better reason but does involve more pre-flip association than I'm comfortable with.

My question for you is: what possible town reason could Metalcyanide have for not voting for Taly, under the circumstances?

Unless there's somebody besides RC and Mykonian here who wants to talk with me, I'm taking a break.

[Aquanim]

Well, I guess we'll just have to see which of us is more convincing to the thread at large.

[Aquanim]

...
I didn't commit to talk because it was a weak read. Taly read like I was typing it, making me think he could of been scum or just unknowing how to express what he wanted to say.
...

That's not what these posts read like to me.

There's not much to be believed or disbelieved about a VT claim. At the moment I'm voting you which would imply I don't think you're town. As for tomorrow I'm not sure, it would depend a fair bit on the nightkill and pisskop's hypothetical vig shot flip (mostly hypothetical in that he may be blocked). There are not many players I would rule out.

Besides RadiantCowbells, who else are you reading as scum and why? I know you said earlier but (a) that was before the Oddmusic flip and (b) I'd like to see some more details.

pedit: I wouldn't expect many people to say who they'll be gunning for tomorrow, between my reasons above and it being potentially useful information to the scum in choosing who to NK.

I'm back to reading Taly as scum thanks to Elyse's long post on her. Some stuff got pointed out that I hadn't noticed.
Something about mykonian is off but I have nothing better than a gut read on him
Boon for voting Odd, defending RC and then he has done nothing else useful, aside from vote for me but from my view it is less than useful.

I'll await any answers I get

@metal Who do you think is the 3 scum on your team?

RC, Boon, Taly

[Aquanim]

...
Unrelated to the above what do you think of RC's offer to me?

[Aquanim]

If we don't lynch scum today I don't think I want pisskop to use his second shot at all. If he does, and assuming this is a standard 10v3 setup otherwise, we will be at 5v3 aka MYLO day 2. Do not want.

Even if we do lynch scum today I would prefer to have an extra mislynch over pisskop using his shot.

[Aquanim]

Note: The above assumes the worst-case scenario that pisskop shoots town. Even so, that shot is worth a lynch to us, and I'd much prefer to have another lynch and another day rather than a vig shot.

[Aquanim]

Oh, and RadiantCowbells? Don't investigate pisskop tonight.

Why? If you claim a red-check on him, you are unlikely to be believed.

Check Boonskiies or something instead.

[Aquanim]

I wouldn't mind seeing a check on eektor or TheDudeAbides, either.

p-edit: Well, I can't stop you, but I've warned you as to the likely consequences. I've done my duty here.

[Aquanim]

The problem is that even if we lynch you (RadiantCowbells) instead, AND you flip cop, I'm still not sure that check will be believed. It's seriously a waste of time.

[Aquanim]

I'm still not sure that check will be believed.

You think I'd lie about an actual report I got?

Given the conditional probability from my perspective that pisskop is in fact town, I would be at least dubious. I've seen townies with some resemblance to you fakeclaim redchecks on townies before (offsite).

I'm going to repeat that I do NOT want to see pisskop take his second shot.

[Aquanim]

For the record, Metalcyanide is now at L-2.

@Mod

: The end-of-day message in the most recent votecount does not reflect the three-day extension given with Taly's modkill.

[Aquanim]

Perhaps the actual date was updated, I just looked at the bit that said Monday. If so my apologies.

@toolenduso

: Do you think Mykonian's interaction with me from #898 had any validity?

[Aquanim]

EBWOP: That should read "from #898 onward".

@eektor

: Of all the players on the Taly wagon you haven't mentioned toolenduso. Why?

[Aquanim]

@Elyse

: Same question to you as to Toolenduso: Do you think Mykonian's interaction with me from #898 had any validity?

Also, why are you townreading Mykonian in general?

[Aquanim]

Is anyone interested in pursuing one of the following: Boon, IL, or The Dude.

Why is eektor not on this list?

[Aquanim]

Boon, IL, or The Dude.

no, yes, very much no.

Why not TheDudeAbides? I don't think you've mentioned him at all; and just like Eektor he wasn't on either of the wagons before the Taly modkill.

[Aquanim]

Also, if RC is the cop and isn't dead tomorrow he is in fact not the cop

Not true. You should know better than that. We could have Jailers, bodyguards, doctors, etc.

Let's be real though, if town in fact has a roleblocker, vigilante and cop there is no way in hell we have a protective role on top of that. Follow-the-cop is imbalanced and JK would overlap with the RB we already had, so the only way I can conceivably see us having a protective role is if RC is lying and there is a doctor/bodyguard.

On that note, assuming that you are in fact town Pisskop, it seems exceedingly unlikely to me that the scumteam does not have some way to prevent your shot going through at night (be that a roleblocker, doctor or whatever).

Ugh setup speculation pisses me off - not what I play the game for, but under the circumstances it's gotta be done.

[Aquanim]

@eektor, pisskop, mykonian

: Why are you or would you support an InsidiousLemons lynch? Remembering that the reason he has not been active for the past week or so is presumably because he is V/LA and in hospital, what about his play

before that point

do you find scummy, and why did you not find it scummy and push it at the time?

[Aquanim]

...
The reason why I voted for IL is he has been shady all game I think and I think his vote on Taly was pretty low key and he did mention he wasn't sure that Taly was scum, but once Taly claimed he kept his vote on Taly like the claim made him want to keep his vote on Taly.

Can you elaborate on "IL has been shady all game"? There are bits and pieces in your ISO (something about how he went after Metalcyanide in 146, for instance) but I'd like to see a more detailed case, based on what you're thinking from your current perspective.

Also, you appear to think Mykonian is reasonably likely to be scum as well; why are you pushing for an InsidiousLemons lynch intead of Mykonian? If it's just "IL more likely to flip scum", what distinguishes the two?

[Aquanim]

So, Metalcyanide... RadiantCowbells isn't getting lynched today, and (for better or worse) it doesn't appear Boonskiies is either. If you're town, do you want to try to sell me on a lynch that's not you?

[Aquanim]

You're telling someone who scumreads you, who you also scumread, that they should switch votes off of you and onto someone else?

I'm not sure why but your vote isn't on Metalcyanide in the most recent votecount - might want to do that again.

[Aquanim]

@Mod: RadiantCowbells' vote does not appear at all in the above votecount; is this an error or the outcome of the following rule:

...
4. If any player has a vote count other than 1(i.e. a non voter or double voter), it will be reflected in the vote count.
...

[Aquanim]

@Mod: RadiantCowbells' vote does not appear at all in the above votecount; is this an error or the outcome of the following rule:

...
4. If any player has a vote count other than 1(i.e. a non voter or double voter), it will be reflected in the vote count.
...

Interesting theory but why would have RC shown up in other vote counts

Well, it's established that day roles exist in this game... that being said it would be a pretty ridiculous role for a normal and the previous error made the prosaic explanation much more likely. I asked about the rule out of whimsy, mostly.

[Aquanim]

@toolenduso, TheDudeAbides

: We need to talk.

[Aquanim]

In particular, we need to talk about the InsidiousLemons wagon and the reasons for it.

Spoiler: Mykonian's reasons

I'd actually have to dig for that, there were two things that nagged me about IL, amongst other stuff which seemed town. I'll see if I can find it tomorrow, 90% sure I posted about it.

Hmm, I have lemons as a scumread at that point, lets see if I can retrace what post made me think that. (rereading, he was the first person to talk about dude and my claim being fake. That's a small blemish, really. But i'd expect scum to make such a post more easily. Something to keep in mind)

EBWOP: Do you also read InsidiousLemons' list post (in #292) as scummy

a priori

?

yes.

This boils down to
- He was the first person to talk about TDA and Mykonian's claims being fake
- He made a list post
To use a polite term, I'm going to characterise these points as "poor".

Spoiler: eektor's reasons

I'm liking Aquanim a fair bit more now.
UNVOTE: Aquanim
Not loving eektor, he's been posting fairly frequently but briefly and without much substance, mostly just agreeing with other people. He hasn't been doing much hunting.
Don't know how I feel about Taly. I think I like him, for the most part.
I don't like Metal, at least not much. A meaningless RVS vote and an immediate retraction with an apology is fishy, to say the least. It eliminates the possibility of a reaction test and, while it could just be chalked up to laziness, apathy is at best a null tell. Seems scummy to me.
VOTE: Metalcyanide

This is L-1.

IL Votes Metal and in his mind pushed him to L-1. He said before it wasn't a reaction but he actually thought metal was at L-1.

Your RVS vote is still on Eek and Metal is at L-3, by my count. Unless you have adequate reason to keep your vote on eek I'd suggest putting it somewhere more valuable instead of just FOS'ing Metal with an RVS vote on the table.

Then why is your vote still on eek? You've made no argument or comment for or against him.

@Aeronaut because, while I accept you may not have reason to vote anyone else, I wanted to know if you HAD reason to vote eek. If there are reasons for a vote I like to know them in case it's enough to sway me to jump on the wagon. It's fine if you don't have a read, I just wanted to see if you did.

This sequence of posts I find scummy. He went from trying to push people to vote for Metal, then as if realizing the lynch wasn't going to go through, looking for another wagon to hop on.

VOTE: oddmusic
I meant to do that before at the end of my analysis post. Oddmusic is probable scum IMO.

Votes oddmusic when the wagon was forming.

Phew. That took longer than expected. I'm pretty sure I've adequately collected my thoughts here, and I've decided I'm happy with a Taly lynch today. Even I was unsure of my exact feelings on everyone until this post forced me to consider every player individually, and I've come to the conclusion that Taly is at the top of my scum list.
VOTE: Taly

He gives a read list in this post and then convinces himself that Taly is scum and votes for him. This was also when Taly's wagon was gaining momentum.

^RC made the point before about stream of conciousness posts generally coming from town, which I agree with for the most part, and 369 is another example of one of these types of posts. I'm not entirely convinced Taly isn't scum but he's certainly gained points with me.

I don't really like how Taly is needlessly insisting over and over again that he is town. It kind of looks like overcautious scum. Also, a vague PR claim after having been at L-2 for a fair while is a bit odd. However, I'll admit I have been skimming a bit, sorry for the lack of posts recently, I've been super busy, I'll try to catch up and post some more soon.

This is a lot to digest. I think I want to wait and see if this vig shot is in fact real before doing anything drastic. Vote stays on Taly for now, I don't really get why tool unvoted especially now that RC has stopped voting him as well but... god damn this is a lot to digest. I still don't like Taly though.

These three posts I find is a progression of his read on Taly while keeping his vote on Taly. What I don't like here, is he admittedly was skimming saw the PR claim and kept his vote on Taly. In fact it seems like his scum read of Taly was strengthened by the PR claim. I think town would be more cautious especially if they were just skimming. You don't want to accidentally lynch a town PR.

So basically his eagerness to jump on wagons that are gaining momentum and keeping his vote on Taly when Taly soft claimed as well as when Taly outed his role, is what I find scummy.

These points are better but I don't find them convincing enough.
- It's possible that a scum would be slightly more likely to not realise they were not pushing someone to L-1, but that's a pretty big reach. I don't see any particular scum motivation behind it as a deliberate ploy.
- I kind of like the sequence of posts from #86 through #94 myself, though that is possibly because InsidiousLemons was (apparently) trying to get someone to justify their vote. I don't feel like moving from pushing people to vote for your "wagon" to jumping onto another is scummy that early in the game; indeed it might well get the game moving.
- The jumping onto Oddmusic and Taly is a quite valid point and the one which I find most compelling, considering they both flipped town. However, that's only enough for me to want to take another good look at him tomorrow when he returns or is replaced, rather than lynch him for it today.
- Considering that InsidiousLemons' posts were pretty sparse beyond the point where Taly claimed I doubt he was thinking the game through thoroughly at that point. It's an interesting point, but there is precedent for townies sticking to Taly after that claim... obviously not all four of {Elyse, Mykonian, IL, Tool} can be scum, and I'd be shocked to find that three of them were.

Spoiler: pisskop's reasons

I would prefer IL to Metal because IL seems harder to pin down, but I could swing Metal too.

I think IL's initial push on Metal was a bus. And a facade.

- I'm not sure what pisskop means exactly by "harder to pin down" but I don't think it's "more likely to flip scum".
- The initial IL-Metal thing could have been a bus, but I don't see anything which seems to especially suggest it. Even if that's the case it would imply that Metal's scum, so we would lose nothing by lynching him over IL today anyway.

And, the unspoken bit...

- He's not in the thread and therefore he is unable to defend himself

I find these points far less convincing than my arguments for Metalcyanide being scum in #898 and #795, among other points (and some made by other people).

I'm not particularly convinced that InsidiousLemons is town but I would prefer to lynch Metalcyanide today and give InsidiousLemons (or his slot) another day to demonstrate his alignment, one way or the other.

If you disagree and want to lynch InsidiousLemons today, I want to know why. We are running out of time, so make it fast - if that is the case I want a chance to rebut before the hammer.

[Aquanim]

I find these points far less convincing than my arguments

I am not surprised.

Do you want to pretend to do something useful for town, or are you just going to laze around and take potshots?

1) i see the exact same arguement for eek as I do IL
2) i think eek was more town than il at tgmhe time of unfortunate irl
3) i could still lynch metal, but he's the easiest path.

I want to lynch eektor less than I do IL, though they're both on the table. As for "easiest path"... if I wanted to lynch someone today who I wouldn't feel the slightest shred of remorse for if they flipped town, I'd be voting Boonskiies.

[Aquanim]

Boonskiies town!!

If this is true, you're a disgrace to your alignment.

@Pisskop: Sorry if you've already stated this somewhere, but how would you feel about holding off on your second shot until tomorrow? My reasoning here is that it would end any doubts about you being town.

The whole reason for shooting today is to spend all my shoots before the NK can get me, and flip some people. I'll mot eviate to satisfy unfounded paranoia. If I was going to save it for another day I would have.

1) I think you're very unlikely to be able to use your shot tonight, unless the (probable) scum RB targets RC instead. Which I suppose is possible. I have no idea whether being roleblocked would consume a shot.

2) I know you're a vigilante, and that's exciting and all, and you want to use your role to the fullest. If Taly had not been modkilled, I would say go for it. Boonskiies really needs policy shooting, for one. BUT. Since we are now back at an ODD number of people, your shot equates to a lynch. If you shoot town, we have one less mislynch and thus one less day to work this game out, if it comes to that. Unless you're ABSOLUTELY positive you know who the scum are, which I don't get the impresssion you are, taking your shot probably lowers town's chances of winning this game. Using your second shot for the sake of it is not that important.

Vote: Boonskiies

Why are you not voting for either of the actually relevant wagons today, with 24 hours left in the cycle?

[Aquanim]

I kind of want to lynch TheDudeAbides just for that.

[Aquanim]

At this point, using my vig tonight will force the scum to choose who to RB/NK/etc

Well, do as you please, I can't actually stop you doing otherwise.

With TDA throwing away his vote and InsidiousLemons still AWOL I can't get a Metal lynch without a switch from somebody. Would it be you?

Is nobody interested in an eektor lynch?

Mykonian was, IIRC for no better reasons than "he's lurking" or something. I'd much prefer Metal.

[Aquanim]

I hate this part where I get cold feet too - but I'm not in for an eektor or Insidious lynch today, I wouldn't get the votes for Mykonian, and lynching Boonskiies would be giving up. I'm not lynching either of the claimed town PRs today. Does anyone have a case for TheDudeAbides?

[Aquanim]

We have 2 flips. and were not using them.

How do you think we should be using them?

[Aquanim]

Meh, I think that "I think he's town but I don't know he's town" was a quite reasonable attitude to take to the Taly wagon. The way he didn't really do anything about it one way or the other is scummy but if I tried to lynch everyone in this game who appeared not to give a damn I'd run out of rope. It was, in fact, very hard to actively oppose the Taly wagon with those stupid huge walls being flung back and forth, and the extreme confirmation bias of the people pushing it.

I have to say I'd probably consider eektor a little more harshly if Mykonian hadn't tried to push for his lynch. Pre-flip association is terrible... but seductive.

[Aquanim]

I have to say I'd probably consider eektor a little more harshly if Mykonian hadn't tried to push for his lynch. Pre-flip association is terrible... but seductive.

boy, you are going to make this game hard for yourself

Maybe if you put half the effort into your scumreads that you did into trying to convince me not to lynch Metal (not even that Metal was town, just that he shouldn't be lynched) this would be going a little differently. As it is, however, you've made your priorities pretty clear.

[Aquanim]

Wow, you sheeped Elyse into scumreading a townie who got modkilled. Am I supposed to be impressed?

[Aquanim]

In what sense is Metal trying his damnedest to get himself lynched?

[Aquanim]

Well?

[Aquanim]

Really. Let me go and see what other people in this game thought of our little discussion.

Yes, I agree with you in that interaction.
...

...
-Aqua makes a good point about Metal's stance on Taly, but I think eektor's stance on Taly looks worse:
...

So basically your point there still makes no sense, as confirmed by other reasonable people in this thread who I would

a priori

expect to side with you over me, and you're trying to spin it as me throwing a tantrum.

[Aquanim]

...

<echoing silence>

Anyone who's played with Mykonian before - is this kind of thing characteristic of his town play?

[Aquanim]

I'll also note that Mykonian seems to

know

I'm town. I'm probably not the best judge of this - does anyone think that is an unreasonable position for him to hold if he's town?

[Aquanim]

Stuff on eektor:

-Wishy washy stance on Taly in #278.
-Drops it later in favor of myko, IL and aqua. But in that post (#537) he says "even though I have my doubts," which lets him come back later if it looks like nobody else will get lynched today.
-#630 looks like eektor setting up a wagon on two players pushing Taly after Taly flips town. He even puts the onus for this on Taly ("according to Taly...") This also makes sense with his somewhat-dropping of his read on Taly.
-More setting up pushes on players following a Taly townflip in #828, this time Taly asked for it (though I will point out that I had already talked in the thread about how this doesn't help town).

@Elyse

I think tool wanted your thoughts on these.

[Aquanim]

I kind of want to but I don't think there'd be six votes for Mykonian and trying to switch at this stage feels like it'd be inviting a no-lynch. I'll be sorrier if Metal's town than I would be if we lynched Mykonian and he flipped town but...

[Aquanim]

That being said, the latest I think I can be here is a bit under 14 hours from now, which I believe is about 2 hours before deadline; if Mykonian were at L-1 at some time between now and then I would hammer.

[Aquanim]

EBWOP: Obviously, if he's put at L-1 and then it goes back while I'm asleep, I won't be hammering him then.

[Aquanim]

@TDA

would you vote Mykonian?

[Aquanim]

I'm sick of Taly's self-centered/woe is me/entitled approach to the game.

Let's lynch him.

Why do you think this is a scum approach to the game?

I don't.

As far as not voting metal for not knowing a potential role list - he's shown again and again he is unfamiliar with normal mechanics and I don't see it as more likely to come from either alignment.

That is absolutely something that is talked about in the scum qt.

It's also absolutely something which a scumbuddy would tell him "ask this in the thread for free town points".

[Aquanim]

Well, I'm out for the night. Hopefully I wake up for deadline in the event it's necessary.

[Aquanim]

This is making sense to me right now. Does anybody have a good reason why we should lynch today instead?

town shots at least have a chance of hitting scum. Nightkills don't. The more town shots you get in, the likelier you are to win.

Your worst case only looks better because you look over limited time, in the end you actually get in a worse situation because scum gained a kill overall.

No, that is not how it works in this case. If Pisskop shoots town we lose a mislynch, so we would gain no town-controlled kills overall and lose a day for discussion.

[Aquanim]

I'll also note that Mykonian seems to

know

I'm town. I'm probably not the best judge of this - does anyone think that is an unreasonable position for him to hold if he's town?

I assume you to be one.

I kind of want to but I don't think there'd be six votes for Mykonian and trying to switch at this stage feels like it'd be inviting a no-lynch. I'll be sorrier if Metal's town than I would be if we lynched Mykonian and he flipped town but...

But this post gets hilarious in that context. I love hypocrites.

I don't even follow what your point is. The latter post was talking about the hypothetical case where either of you flips town. In general I prefer to lynch people where I would be minimally sorry if they flipped town, but due to practicalities I'm making an exception today.

I can't help but notice you trying to change the subject away from you being caught in a lie in this post, too.

Really. Let me go and see what other people in this game thought of our little discussion.

Yes, I agree with you in that interaction.
...

...
-Aqua makes a good point about Metal's stance on Taly, but I think eektor's stance on Taly looks worse:
...

So basically your point there still makes no sense, as confirmed by other reasonable people in this thread who I would

a priori

expect to side with you over me, and you're trying to spin it as me throwing a tantrum.

[Aquanim]

...Screw it, let's get a show of hands.

How many people who are here would policy lynch Boonskiies?

[Aquanim]

oh, your tantrum was quite real, don't worry. You don't go "unless someone else wants to talk to me, I'm done for now" if you are perfectly calm still

Even in the same go as when you push me, you are already admitting you do it moreso because you are annoyed by me than because you think I'm scum.

Tantrum seems like a perfectly applicable word, actually. Ty for mentioning it.

So, every one of these sentences is wrong too. Being on this side of my screen, I know when I'm throwing a tantrum, and I wasn't. I realised that talking to you further was a waste of my time since you were just going to keep insisting I was wrong with no interesting argument to the contrary.

You are irritating me, indeed. The last two players I encountered who irritated me by claiming things about my actions and my play that were incorrect were both mafia. I'm willing to take that heuristic out for another spin. (I don't recommend that heuristic to most people, by the way, but given my particular mentality and playstyle it works for me.)

You're still dodging the part where Elyse and Tool agreed with me that my point had merit, and thus that your argument against it did not.

[Aquanim]

Well, if you still don't want to talk about that, I think I've adequately made my point.

[Aquanim]

That's not the hammer, apparently.

Even if he flips town, your idea of defending him was to nitpick a single point in the argument against him (totally ignoring the other points), and the lynch you tried to push instead had the argument that... "IL made a listpost". You won't be off the hook.

I'm less convinced he's gonna flip scum than I was a few days ago, but since the town screwed around for the last few days we're now committed whether you or I like it or not.

[Aquanim]

Mykonian could be walking away from this argument, in which he's pissing off one of his townreads and inciting me to come after him, and yet he's not.

I can't really see a reason why he'd be doing this if he's town unless I inflict some serious slurs on his character. If he's scum, on the other hand, I imagine he'd be quite happy trying to make me look like an angry child or what have you.

[Aquanim]

the lynch you tried to push instead had the argument that... "IL made a listpost".

You'll appreciate it in a couple of years

Taly made a listpost. Is Taly scum now? No he is not.

[Aquanim]

Mykonian could be walking away from this argument, in which he's pissing off one of his townreads and inciting me to come after him, and yet he's not.

I can't really see a reason why he'd be doing this if he's town unless I inflict some serious slurs on his character. If he's scum, on the other hand, I imagine he'd be quite happy trying to make me look like an angry child or what have you.

Eh, you aren't that special. Look what I said about RC this game. It's not because I think he's scum. I can deal with people I think are scum, I vote them.

No, that's quite different. You see, I'm not RadiantCowbells. By both empirical and subjective measurements, I'm a moderately skilled town player.

[Aquanim]

Indeed, opinions do differ about "moderately skilled". That would be the "subjective" part. The number of scum which I've been responsible for lynching is quite a bit more objective, though.

[Aquanim]

ugh I'm kind of here, busy though
RC you'd better switch

[Aquanim]

pisskop if you go back to IL I'll hammer if I gotta
it's shit but gotta lynch

[Aquanim]

<insert obscenities here>

I'm going back to work.

[Aquanim]

I suppose under the circumstances I have no further objection to pisskop taking his shot, though trying to take it tonight may or may not be the best method to achieve that. Use your judgement.

Now I guess I have to work out whether the resistance to a Metalcyanide lynch was strong because he's mafia and his buddies were against it, or because this town is just too sedentary to live. Or both, I suppose.

[Aquanim]

I don't even know why I bother playing to my wincon. I could just troll around like Boonskiies and ruin games for everyone.

Between his randomly switching from IL to Metal and back and his "I'll be on in two hours anyway to sort out a lynch" into disappearing into thin air I don't believe Mykonian gave a damn about who we lynch today. (Not to mention his terrible reasons for voting IL and Eektor, and for being against the Metal lynch). Anyone care to argue against that?

[Aquanim]

I'm also gonna note that Elyse said she'd hammer IL, disappeared, then showed up an hour after deadline. For what that's worth.

[Aquanim]

I'm not sure how likely it is, but if I get shot tonight, don't automatically assume that one of RadiantCowbells and Pisskop is mafia. Though you probably should consider the possibility.

I don't think that RadiantCowbells failing to hammer IL is as relevant as Elyse and Mykonian's disappearances.

If Mykonian somehow manages to convince you that I have it out for him personally or something (he does seem to like throwing mud like that), remember that even if it were true it wouldn't necessarily make me wrong. At the very least, keep him honest.

I honestly think we're going to lose; this town appears to not give nearly enough of a damn. I don't much like to lose, but there are limits to what I can personally do about that.

If you're a townie and you don't want to lose I'd suggest the two following courses of action:
1) Don't mess around until towards the end of the cycle to make a wagon and put it up to L-1. More threatening wagons generate more interesting reactions, and courting another nolynch would be even more stupid than the first one.
2) Explain each and every one of your reads, and insist that others do the same. Players being accountable for their statements and actions is pretty much necessary for a town win.

[Aquanim]

So, speak now or hold your peace until the dawn, I suppose.

[Aquanim]

pisskop do you still have your shot?