Mini 1769: Ice Cream Mafia - Game over!

[Thor665]

Greetings all.

I'm already on the biggest wagon, so no need to move my vote.

Other than that, what's up in this game?

Keyser Soze (3) - mn, GuyFawkes, BlueBloodedToffee
OceanWind (2) - Golden Robster, KainTepes
mn (2) - massive, popsofctown
GuyFawkes (2) - OceanWind, TellTaleHeart
Phoenix Wright (1) - Slandaar
KainTepes (1) - Aquanim

Not voting (2) - Keyser Soze, Boonskies

------------------

@Keyser
@Boon

We're, oh, 20+ pages into this game. Why no vote in play yet? Do you lack reads or...?

@Aquanim
@Slandaar

Your wagons are small compared to others - what makes them worth existing at this stage? You should talk about them more if they're interesting. if they're not interesting why not help me put Keyser to L-1 to force a claim? That could be a bit more entertaining and give us something new to debate also.

[Thor665]

That's an incredibly weak reason, and though a funny answer - I think that by dint of resorting to humor you are kind of admitting that your wagon is, at the moment, a bit laughable.
Are you planning to do anything to make it more serious, or is your goal on Day 1 just to dork around, seem light hearted, and try to drift by without taking a serious stance?
Or is there some other aspect of your play that I'm missing, and if so - what is it?

[Thor665]

So in 20+ pages you literally have no real preference of who is lynched?

That seems unlikely or screwed up.

Clarify?

[Thor665]

I replaced in a few days ago, Thor. Still not caught up yet, and my scum read is Keyser.

If he's a scum read, why not vote him - it would only put him on, what, L-4? That's certainly within acceptable pressure grounds, is there a reason you prefer not to?
Also, how much longer till you're caught up enough to be willing to place a vote? You replaced in three days ago with 20 pages - about how many do you read in a day?

Contented.

[Thor665]

So your strongest preference is a single vote wagon that you are not actively pushing?



As long as your vote is doing nothing - do you have a *disagreement* with pushing a wagon to L-2/-1 to generate discourse and stronger reactions?
If no, sheep me.
If yes...could you point the way to someone you'd *like* to push to L-2/-1 to generate discourse and state your reasons for that and maybe I'll sheep you?

The current sideline play from you is abhorrent to me.

[Thor665]

Let's not lynch until everyone has caught up, pls & ty.

What does lynching have to do with L-1 and a claim exactly?

Also, if people want to be caught up before a lynch, they should get caught up.

[Thor665]

I would consider both of those to be my playstyle and both of them to be in existence, clearly, within this game already.

What makes you think I have not been asking questions and seeking responses since, literally, 4 of my last 5 posts have questions in them directed at a variety of people.
And the only one that doesn't has a question struck out as it was answered while I was typing.

[Thor665]

I did not say my preferences are super strong hence I am deciding and not really trying to lynch someone yet.

Dude, 20+ pages in - you should at least be pushing on the strongest of your weak scum reads or sheeping the strongest of your weak town reads at this point because you're clearly still farming for reactions and haven't gotten enough yet.
Which, again, beggers the issue of the lack of pushing from you - I grok that you want/need more info (or are claiming you do) what I fail to see is you doing anything to get info, I see you trying to avoid making a stand, and that makes you harder to read and strikes me as defensive pro-scum play.

You are saying the same thing here. If I have a disagreement with doing X then I should suggest someone to do X to?

You are not expressing a disagreement with my push nor clarifying a reason for your push.

Slandaarina :{

It's pretty standard from me on D1.

Does that make it good play, or just consistent play?

I understand you are trying to engage in the game but maybe try reading the thread and then we can have a discussion about something more meaningful.

Like what?

[Thor665]

What is your read on KainTepes?

Don't have one, what's yours?

I think Keyser's probably town.

I don't find him very townish at all, he's just posting walls without taking actions. Feels empty to me as a slot.
Why do you town read him?

I agree that wagons are useful information reference points but your vote-motivation to "force a claim" is

anti-town

. But thanks for being honest

If you;

1. Agree that wagons are useful info points.
and (I presume)
2. Agree that a claim should be made before someone is lynched.

Then could you explain to me why a wagon for info that leads to a claim is

anti-town

Because I'd love to hear how that works.

Now, if I was saying "let's wagon up people I town read and force multiple people to claim on Day 1 randomly" then (maybe) you would have an argument.
But I'm not.
So what is your argument?

I do not understand

why L-1/lynching/claiming is even being discussed right now...

What do you think is the appropriate time to start discussing lynching scum?
I vote Page 1.

[Thor665]

Not responding to the top half..

As to the bottom -

YOU CAN'T BE CAUGHT UP WHEN YOU JUST REPLACED IN.

I never claimed to be caught up or not caught up - I do, by inference, appear to be able to play the game and react to it though.
Neither point has any bearing to your original raised issue, nor to my question though - you're kind of talking to me sideways.

Spoiler: A wall that is mostly game theory - the salient point is in my answer to Keyser below, just read that for TL:DR

Wagons are useful to see how people react to votes being on them (and seeing who opposes or supports the wagon). But forcing votes onto a wagon to purely get a roleclaim is anti-town.

This is your thesis, copy.

If a player is put to L-1 because there are scum-cases attached to those votes that is very useful.

Why are only cases able to be read as scum or town. Why are not votes? Why are not comments? Why are not attacks? Why are not defenses?
You appear to believe that the only way someone can be read is if they make a case.
Sounds like you'd have a hard time reading most people.
Also - a one word post followed by a vote *is* a "case" in the most wide definition of the word, it's just not a wordy case.

Heck, take my "case" on you. It exists, my reasons are stated, and my logic is being explained multiple times - that is information to read me on. Even if my case is "I don't like your nose" you can read scum and town intent and, even if you for some reason can't/couldn't it *still* leaves wagon analysis for late game and, while we're at it, people avoiding offering their reasoning is *also* something you can read. Like - why are they not making cases...that can have scum and town value just as much as a wall can. And both scum and town do both.

So, either your statement is that you don't understand that things other than a "Case" can be scum/town read.
Or you're being obtuse to try to pretend like my push to get you lynched is inherently "bad" simply because I am honest about having a weak case on you.
Basically you're defending yourself by complaining that I'm not playing "good" while ignoring that I am playing with a lot of info.

However, your plan to make people jump onto my wagon purely to get me to L-1/roleclaim does not encourage discussion/reactions as both town and scum can add empty sheep votes onto my wagon.

Well, it's true that empty votes could be added.
I fail to see why we couldn't discuss them though - what about my method prevents that?

How can I differentiate the opportunistic scum votes from the blind sheep town votes following your anti-town plan

How would you differentiate between a true town case on you and a vile scum case on you?
By reading it, analyzing motivation, and assessing your value call of the person's purpose.
Y'know, the same way you assess a vote not attached to a case.
All a case does is let you debate "facts" wherein we're in a game lacking many facts and filled with opinions - then people bash opinions, act like they've disproven facts, and claim a "victory" that no one cares about because both sides are doing the same thing. At best it shows who is a better master of debate, not who has a stronger case.

What is your motivation/reason?

I have stated that I find your posts empty, and have noted that by staying on you I am part of the biggest wagon.
I have noted both of these bits of information before.
I stand by them, I find you to lack scumhunting and to be a likely wagon I can get bigger. As such, I want to lynch you and see who supports or opposes my plan, then maybe we'll lynch you or not, depending on those reactions.

Do you not have one because you haven't looked, or because your read is null?

A combination of both - what of him I have read is little, but it is not particularly screaming town or scum to me.
Why, is there part of him I should read that would give me a town/scum vibe on him?
You also didn't answer my question to you - asking your read of him. Why not?

Boonskiies has followed your anti-town roleclaim plan. This tells me nothing. Is Boonkiies opportunistic scum or a blind sheep?

I would rather Boonskiies present why he thinks I am scum.

Then why didn't you ask him directly?
You're trying to win an argument here - not assess alingment in me or Boon.
That's why I want you lynched, and that's why your complaint about the case I have on you is empty.

[Thor665]

Last thing: I do realize that with my strong townread of Keyser and constant and consistent town-reading of Keyser throughout this post will inevitably lead to an association case if Keyser were to flip. Please don't make assumptions until then though.

*cough*

[Thor665]

@Ircher - you're distancing from a 97% sure town read.

[Thor665]

For association purposes, I am in a way

Why are you nervousenough to call that out about a 97% town read but not a 99% or whatever your rank below him was? What made Keyser the special one?

[Thor665]

Cuz lots of you scumread him for I'm not totally sure why reasons

Why should that matter if you're 97% sure he's town?

Plus the Kein read is based off him claiming PR, so..... I don't think an association case could be made there

Why not?
Someone claiming a PR and being hard defended hardly removes association, especially if the person in question is scum, didn't claim much, and was hard believed by someone for no other reason than "he claimed!". That's a pure association case as far as I can tell.

[Thor665]

I'm actually kind of with Ircher in thinking BBT might be scum.

For the same reasons or different ones?

[Thor665]

I will go over some posts in more detail in a little bit, as I have to chauffer my girlfriend to work.

I wanted to get out there though that BBT came across as a strong townread this page, and TTH as a strong to moderate one. That bumps Kain into a more lynchable position, even though I'm not the biggest fan of the one case I've seen on him (will be one of the posts I discuss later).

That's me.

[Thor665]

Pretty similar. The case on Keyser just isn't that great. The fact that he's frustrating me on Kain is also concerning me.

No cases on Day 1 are "that great" though - I am always fascinated that people quest for the "great" ones, they are all based on gut or generally accepted scumtells (or on strength of blowhard posting, my method ) and that's about it. To tell yourself otherwise is self-delusional methinks.

Like, you're presenting associative tells as part of a case on Day 1 with no flips. That is hyper weak, but I'm fine withit because I understand the situation we're in and what we have to work with. But if you're allowed to toss out comments like that in relation to your case, I'm at a loss as to where you get off saying a "he's not scumhunting case" is "not that great". Eh, maybe not, but it is as great as anything else out there, and is better than more than half of them. It is at least a valid statement that can be debated - is or isn't the slot scumhunting? You can at least look over posts and assess that.

The case Ircher raised on BBT (and that you apparently agree with) basically is a complaint that he did a whole thread review (something Ircher just did...so I'm not sure why that freaks him out) and then "tunneled" on Keyser. Since you seem to have issues with Kain and could be accussed of "tunneling" that slot, I am not sure why you find "tunneling/focus" to be a bad thing. Like, that's a case that makes little to no sense to me, even compared to the weak case I am pushing on Keyser which you don't seem to like for not being strong enough, yet you're backing Ircher's case which is worse.

Can you respond with some thoughts on the above in a general sense?

- #129 looks like Kain is hiding behind it being early in the day to avoid discussing his scumreads. Considering that in Kain's completed towngame he voted for scum an hour in and said he was frusturated nobody followed him, he claims to be "a VERY AGGRESSIVE player" as town, and in his towngame he in fact had some fidelity to his early reads despite resistance, I don't buy this.

Did you look at any of his scum games to see if he plays slower as scum than as town?Because if he does then you're selling me super well on this case, but if he doesn't then I'm not sure this point is as relevant as you think.

- Kain pretended in #206 not to have read the thread, to dodge talking about the points Slandaar and TTH made about him. I don't believe that he (or anyone) would make that post if they hadn't read the thread (he also claimed not to have read the thread in #219), and I don't believe that a townie having read the thread would dodge like that (unless there were some underlying plan, which I've seen no sign of). I've already been over this at length.

That does look skeevy.

- There is nothing redeeming about the reads Kain has made, and I don't see any coherent town thought process behind his switching from one to the next.

I (slightly) agree with this, but will admit I am leaning towards a belief that the noted play is what Kain thinks of as him being an aggressive player.

@everyone

: If you don't think Kain is scum, I want to know what in the above you disagree with.

I do think he has a chance to be scum - but my disagreements are noted.

[Thor665]

I find it especially tactically abhorrent the fact you have not fully caught up, but are willing others to force me to L-1/claim, without providing any thoughts yourself.

I have provided many thoughts. In fact you are quoting many thoughts I have offered and disagreeing with me about my plan to put you to L-1.
You can't disagree with my thoughts AND claim I don't have any in the same breath without your post looking very empty.
Which it does.

This does not say anything. Instead of saying everything I write is empty, please state which points you agree or disagree with.

It is difficult to agree/disagree with points I find empty.
That's kind of the point.

So I would suggest catching up please.

Your suggestion is noted and dismissed.

Let's look at your 3 recent conclusions:

Okay (also known as thoughts - f which you claim I'm not offering any).

I disagree with this - show me "strong townread". Convince me BlueBloodedToffee is 'strong' town.

Judging by the vote counts I have no need to do so - you're far more likely to be lynched than he is, and my goal was to state my belief, not sell it.

Yes, I share this read. Show me how you got there.

By reading his posts and getting a gut reaction to them.
Again, I am more interested in talking about my scum read (you) and how you're doing nothing then in trying to explain my town reads (which are not under heavy attack) to a player I think is scum.
I want the conversation to be about you and how you should be lynched for doing nothing.
You're trying to distract from that with minutiae and starting "discussions" about things that don't need to be discussed.
No. This is empty.

Why/how was KainTepes promoted to a "lynchable position"? Because your town read(s) support that wagon?

Yes - I tend to lend more credence to slots I think are town then to slots I don't think are town, and the fact both of my town reads in the game (and Aqua who is a slight town lean and offering a case) all have issue with the Kain slot makes me tend to be far more willing to consider lynching the slot then I would be if, say, everyone pushing Kain was a scum read of mine.
Why, do you play differently than that?

I do think he has a chance to be scum - but my disagreements are noted.

So what is your conclusion so far on KainTepes?

It would be the conclusion you literally are quoting.
That's like quoting my screen name and asking me what I'd like to be called...okay *maybe* there is some confusion there...but it seems strange to have any.

I mean, seriously, what part of "he's more lynchable, and I do think he has a chance to be scum" equates to "Thor is lacking a conclusion about his read on Kain"?
That is the definition of a conclusion.
Again, this is why your posts feel empty to me - you're making a lot of noise and thrashing around, but it doesn't feel like you're reading things, and it also appears to be your goal to bog us down in needless repetition and meaningless side discussion rather than advancing your own beliefs.

Your entire last post is a valid representation of my case against you.
I hope you understand my issue now, but I suspect I will instead get a repeat of more of the same.

[Thor665]

In conclusion, before I move on:

I will ask nothing and clarify nothing, and wonder why you find my posting empty but will have dropped that line of questioning like a hot potato regardless, yet again proving how I am sturm and drang signifying...wait for it...nothing..

[Thor665]

@Pops - what is scummy about Golden's replace out exactly?

Also, you are aware, I presume, that this was not the only game he replaced out of at that particular time - making it look even less likely to be an alignment indicative replace out to my mind, but I'm willing to hear your reasoning I suppose.

Lay it on me.

[Thor665]

I think I just haven't experienced you coming in guns blazing. Maybe it's symptomatic of the replacement.

I think it would be stranger to see me come in *not* guns blazing. I'm pretty sure I'm known for being aggressive like this.
I'm still not really sure where you came from with this "no questions" thing either - that feels like you weren't reading me or...I dunno, weren't seeing questions?

[Thor665]

@TTH- The bigger issue is the lack of research, not the weakness of the case value call.

Meanwhile, could you do an outside looking in for me - is Keyser's posting looking as empty to you as it is to me. To clarify that, look at his last half a dozen posts and try to find involvement, or serious questing for scum in them, or clear pushing of his scumhunting agenda. I don't see it at all. Do you?

Speaking of people not pushing - you're still sitting on Guy, a wagon that is assuredly in the doldrums. You have expressed issue with Keyser, Kain, and BBT (though I am squinting in a hopeful mindset for the Keyser one, but when you suggest he's awkwardly defending your top scum read I choose to take that as calling them potential scumbuddies)

Why aren't you voting one of them right now? Like, especially when both BBT and I expressed a reasonable agreement to the idea of lynching Kain. Why are you not working on that and are instead sitting on the sidelines and (unproductively) sniping at pops (especially when I just did a productive snipe at him on the same topic)?

@Pops - could you address my question to you and not just verbally spar with TTH, which, again, is not productive posting.

[Thor665]

I'm just not feeling the Keyser case here. I wish I had a more intelligent way of engaging with it but I really don't. None of the points are "wrong" per se, but my intuition here is that Keyser isn't very likely to actually flip scum.

I want you to talk about what you're thinking in attacking it as "weak" compared to other cases on the table, or even other Day 1 cases in general.
That is an unfair, and ungrounded attack - and I want you to explain why you think it valid.

Golden Robster was extremely engaged early on, then he just stopped when there was a lull, then he waited until the end of that lull to replace out. It seems like he was scum waiting for something to happen in thread, and then when nothing did happen in thread, he was like, "i don't see a path here."

Did he replace out of all of his games? I dunno

Why wouldn't you look?

He was like majorly independently scummy before it happened anyway.

Then why cite the null replace out as scummy if you have a more valid case on him?

I'm taking it you didn't catch up entirely because BBT is not amenable to a Kain lynch.

Read between the lines - he is openly suggesting he is scummy and/or a valid policy lynch and/or not someone he wants in lylo.
Just because he's saying he's an "easier" lynch later or that he hopes he gets vigged is hardly a true opposition of the wagon.
Maybe I'm skimming better than you're reading?

[Thor665]

I find Golden Robster pretty scummy. He seems to be poking at random rather than poking at places that are actually places a townie would be organically concerned about. It makes it seem like he's doing it just to do something. I'm happy to believe he pokes this much in every game he plays with either alignment, but I bet as town he pick pressure points that are actually points of concern to begin with.

I went and looked, this appears to be the core of your Golden case outside of the replace out that you decided not to research to confirm whether it was scummy or not.

I would note that this case applies equally well to Keyser.
Would you like to vote Keyser now so we can advance the game on a basic case you agree with - I'd switch to Golden, maybe, but there's no real point in pressuring an empty slot, and asking for a claim from it is even more difficult, and your replace out element is a bit of a joke as an addendum to the case.

We have 4 days till deadline - I for one would kind of like to have, oh, maybe 3-4 days to debate about a claim and pick a new wagon if people decide they don't want to lynch Keyser, but we really ought to put him, or someone to L-1 soon so we can have that debate time.

I also promise less lurking and replace outs if we get the game interesting and moving forward again.
Hint: L-1 and claims will give us new ground to cover, as opposed to empty retreading and more waiting.
Unless you support deadline lynches.
I do.
But only when I'm scum, because they are awesome to hide in, and tend to lead to wrong decisions.
But I'm not playing my scum game right now.
Why are all of you?

[Thor665]

Meanwhile, could you do an outside looking in for me - is Keyser's posting looking as empty to you as it is to me. To clarify that, look at his last half a dozen posts and try to find involvement, or serious questing for scum in them, or clear pushing of his scumhunting agenda. I don't see it at all. Do you?

I can't really spoon feed it to you if you don't "see it."

I am attempting to spoon feed the emptiness to you.
Do you not see that?
And if you disagree with the evidence I'm presenting - why is that?

[Thor665]

Boom - headshot post 665.

[Thor665]

Fair!?
So just because you stacked a bunch of words on top of each other, I should agree with it because it's got a nice ribbon tied around it and it checks off all the boxes in a formulaic, feel-good case like "not asking questions." Is that the "fair" thing to do?

Maybe you're right and maybe that's not fair. But I disagree with the fundamental argument that his posting is "hollow" and I think you, along with the other wagoners, are pretty far from proving it's intentional or strategic to advancing the scum win condition.

You basically just sidestepped the point of you attacking the case in an illogical manner, and went back to the tried and true of "I don't like the case" which I already understood.

What I'm asking for is the logic in calling it weak vs. the other cases of this or any other Day 1 - why is that hard to do? Is it fear of admission of being wrong? Or is it lack of ability to grok my core question - which I feel I've stated quite clearly by this stage? I mean, I called what you did unfair - but that wasn't my core point, but that is 100% of your response, so not only did you appear to miss my core point, you decided to make one word the focus of your entire rebuttal. That doesn't make sense.

Can you answer my question now? Or are you intentionally avoiding it? Andif so, just say that, so I don't need to ask a fourth time. Thanks!

- The Butthole.

[Thor665]

Read between the lines - he is openly suggesting he is scummy and/or a valid policy lynch and/or not someone he wants in lylo.
Just because he's saying he's an "easier" lynch later or that he hopes he gets vigged is hardly a true opposition of the wagon.
Maybe I'm skimming better than you're reading?

No,

today

BBT is

definitely

not amenable to a Kain lynch.

I don't know what kind of role he is crumbing.

What do you think it is?

PEdit - TTH, I'm not lynching Kain. I think you should stop.

^^^ is not scum posting.

Don't be a butthole.

And it just occured to me that this is also a sidestep of my question to debate a minor point.

Okay, fine, let's even say that BBT is 100% against the lynch and I am reading him wrong.
That still means *I* expressed interest int he lynch and you did nothing with it.

Why do that while sitting on a vote you don't seem to actually care about?
Answer the actual questions, stop being slippy.

[Thor665]

@Keyser - I am not apologizing for my play, and I have never called you stupid - so please stop dropping F-bombs at me.

[Thor665]

You wanting me to "do something" with one person's scumread is pretty ridiculous and you're absolutely

not

taking the time to read anything I'm posting and think about it.

Well now it's two people again, as BBT has agreed with my read of his beliefs.
And you sitting on a vote you didn't care about, yeah, i would think +1 person would make you do something. Then again, apparently people are freaking out with anger at my suggestion of 'do something' which kind of confuses me as I'm pretty sure that's not an unreasonable opinion of what people should be doing in the game.

You're trying to come up with the wittiest rebuttal because I guess being the smartest guy in the room is what you're all about.

Why is this upsetting?
If it's just my methods, fine, note taken, now can we move forward with the plan?
If it's the plan and not the method - can you explain your counter plan? Because I am not seeing one.
If it's both, can we focus on the plan over the method - because I don't care about the method as long as we have a plan that makes sense.

I think a good plan for game advancement is to put a top scumread to L-1 and force a claim.
I think it should be done while we still have multiple days to discuss the claim and potential counter wagons.
I am making moves to try to make that happen, by attacking reads I find weak, and advancing a wagon I support while also noting other wagons I would support in case someone wants to try to push an alternate wagon.
I am noting dissatisfaction with people who are failing to push counter wagons, or are pushing lone vote wagons that they are not advancing.

What is your plan other than to do that?
And if that sounds okay, can we just call me a butthole and move on from the random emotional outburst about how I'm trying to look too smart? I'm happy if you want to think I'm dumb, rude, or a kumquat - but I am serious about the concept of my plan.

I haven't bothered to look up his soft power roleclaim. More bad play if true. But if it's serious we leave him the Smurf alone, unless we have a counter claim.

How do you counterclaim a soft claim?
By definition a soft claim is doing something like "I am a PR!"
You can't counter a claim like that.
A hard claim would be "I am a Gunsmith!"
Someone *could* counter that if they were, for instance, a Gunsmith, or maybe if they were a cop and didn't think both roles could exist.
But you can't counter claim a soft claim - that's why it's soft, and that's also why it's not worth ruling out someone as a lynch target if they do it, it's like saying 'I am town' it is meaningless to actual game issues.

[Thor665]

My point was, if KainTepes is at the stage of full roleclaiming, we'll either leave him alone with his claim (these things resolves themselves) or we deal with a counter claim.
I null read softing. I have seen scum use it as a defence tactic, and bad town soft when under pressure. We just need to make the right decision at the time. But we should only discuss this further if the majority scum-read/want to lynch KainTepes.

Okay, so you agree that Kain has done nothing role related to prevent a wagon on him - I got the opposite message from your earlier post, but agree with your statement here that he is as open season as anyone else, and moreson than many due to play unrelated to his non-claim.

P.s @Thor665, please can you show me why BBT is 'strong-town'. I do not get his tunnel. I know town must be scum-reading me (as 4 or 5 people have voted for me), so I do not feel like this is OMGUS on my part (possible confirmation bias), but why is he ONLY focused on my slot?

Tunneling is often mistaken for focus and vice versa.

That is the beginning and the end of our "confusion". You seem to think that tunneling = scum which is a thought that has absolutely no support from even a cursory review of previous mafia games on this (or any) site. Tunneling = anti-town. Tunneling is used by scum sometimes, but tunneling is often a result of town thinking they are right. What tunneling means in its true anti-town definition is that the player is question is ignoring other elements in the game for his one purpose.

BBT is not tunneling.


BBT *is* pretty focused on you, but, so am I, and so are a few other players. There is absolutely many pro-town benefits to being focused on a player you think is scum - because, well, there are pro-town benefits to lynching scum, and the way you lynch scum is to get people to vote them, and the way you get people to vote someone is that you talk about that person. Since his focus is your stated issue with him, already your scum vibe there falls immensely flat for me.

Conversely - go and read his interplay from the page I noted him as a town read, he is talking to TTH. He makes multiple comments about multiple players and expresses many views that seem open minded and built to generate discussion. Not only is this the opposite of tunneling (and shows that his focus is healthy, and not blind in any way) it also looks immensely town.

I don't see the confusion from your end at all, nor do I even see justification for the tunneling call other than as a bit of stretched truth in a purely defensive maneuver.

Yeah, I don't know. I went back and looked at it. I don't know if I was thinking more along the lines of "informational questions" rather than rhetorical questions, which some of the early posts do look like (I went back and re-read) -- questions you know the answer to, but are basically forcing the questionee to admit to.

I was asking both types of questions - both have purpose, especially since even the ones wherein I think I know the answer, I like to make them state it back to me in case I'm wrong (all part of my desperate need to be the smartest kid in the class) but, oddly, also good at, y'know, making sure I'm not making up things in my head.

So, basically, you're noting that I am fact checking myself.
Wouldn't that be a town action?

In the early posts, you are pushing Keyser basically because you are already on his wagon and he is the leading wagon. You work to add actual reasons for keeping the vote there / pushing (like "he's just posting walls without taking actions" from 601) but the whole thing seems a bit tunnelly, and I think the same thing could possibly be said about half the game. So I don't understand why Keyser specifically is the focus here.

Why shouldn't he be?
He is a target, sure, and he is a target wherein we have a number of targets, but for one reason or another one target will be the prime target - or else we lack direction. I chose him because he had the most votes, I said as much at the time. I indicated some other targets I had, but unless one of them gets bigger it would be illogical for me to randomly stoptargeting him when he has, otherwise, done nothing to change my mind about his play.

Meanwhile, OceanWind had the exact opposite read of Keyser (79) and Ircher (his replacement) isn't catching up, except enough for a STRONG townread on Keyser, is voting a null read, but still wants to make sure his ducks are in a row for when Keyser is ultimately lynched.

I didn't really get that vibe from Ircher's posting.
At worst I'd say he felt like a scumbuddy worried about protecting his buddy too much.
And even if I fully believe that, I should still lynch Keyser first, yeah?

[Thor665]

Why wouldn't you look?

@Pops

[Thor665]

I generally play only one game at a time and assume other people play one game at a time too. (I happen to be in a second game right now, though)

It really didn't even occur to me at all that he could even be in other games.

And now that you're aware he was, and people do - does that affect your read at all?

[Thor665]

So it makes him more towny - but the slot remains your scummiest read?

What about my offered thought that your case on the slot applies equally to Keyser - who happens to already have wagon support, unlike your wagon on Titus which is currently pretty empty of support. I mean, I'm literally the only one even talking about it - and I oppose it. You're sort of half talking about it when I push you, but I don't think that will get you many sheep, do you? Do you have an opposition to the Keyser wagon?

[Thor665]

I post high volume in all of my games and have never been run up on a case of "slipping".
Post amounts is generally a matter of playstyle - unless you happen to know that he doesn't post much when scum, do you know this? (I do kind of ask this in a rhetorical sense because I have opinions of your backup research habits).

The point being, he *does* post a lot.
But he says basically nothing in all of those posts.
Like, he dinged me over calling his posting empty with out examples - I provided examples - he then dropped the line of conversation.

Now, did he drop it because my argument was so brilliant that all and any could see and understand it?
That would be wonderful, but I kind of doubt it.

My theory is he dropped it because he cared more about attacking the idea of my case, not in actually understanding what I was thinking.
He didn't care about the answer - what he wanted to do was present the concept that the case was bad.

If you look at his posts you will see a dramatic and consistent thread of this - questions asked to the wrong people, ideas dropped, issues not followed up on or solved.
He is making noise, but taking care not to splash any water around.

Why do you disagree with this thought?

[Thor665]

Thor665, do you want my roleclaim or my lynch?

1. If I want your lynch, and not your claim, I am playing badly or am scum.
2. If I want your claim and assuredly don't want your lynch I am playing badly or am scum.
3. If I want your lynch, and want you at L-1 and to claim first - I am playing appropriate town.

I choose...oh...gosh...let me think...I'mma go with #3, was #3 the right answer?

All I'm seeing is

"this wagon has the biggest chance of hitting L-1, so join me guys, while the cookies are warm"

. Smurfing joke.

Add in "and here's why I find him an acceptable lynch compared to others" and you 100% are stating my issue with you, yes.

Just because a wagon is "currently pretty empty of support" doesn't make it wrong or a futile road to go down.

It does if you're sitting with your vote on it while not talking about it with other players or interrogating your suspect.

P.EDIT. I dropped your "empty" argument because it was utter bullSmurf. Non alignment indicative drivel, from a player who is so stubborn and up his own game theory he cant be reasoned with. You are terrible to play with. Learn to listen mate. We can go back to it, but it's a waste of my time and everyone elses. You do not realise we, as players need to talk through arguments to reach an agreement. You just saying *empty empty la la la la la not listening* is just team-killing us. It's Smurfing anti-town.

Read the thread. People are allowed to disagree with you. Deal with it.

What am I not listening to about it? You never tried to explain any part of it to me at all. You demanded to know what I meant. i showed you. You stopped talking.
You either presumed I wouldn't listen (and now are whining about it) - or are lying to me now.
Which was it?

because my argument was so brilliant

Short answer. NO. Show some humility.

You took that grossly out of context and then (faked?) offense at it.
Thor is the unfun player in this game?


Maybe that's why you think I'm so mean? Because you utterly miss my sense of humor?
Read stuff twice? If you already read it twice, go for thrice?
If you're just fake skimming and acting fake offended - then this is obnoxious scum play, but I'll lynch you regardless.

Keyser is one of my preferences so I am not going to disagree on the target and really I don't care on the reasoning as it is just you trying to become the leader. 'My Push' is simply 1. The highlighted post a while back 2. Phoenix did literally nothing 3. Boon has ignored me completely since entering the game which seems strange to me.

For #2 - do you think Pheonix as town always "does something" and, I would add, slots that replace out generally do nothing before they replace out - generally that's why they need replacement.
#3 - Is there meta attached to this, like, when scum he ignores you?

Not this again Thorsie Worsie

Wait, are we not going to cutsie nicknames? I got my signals crossed Slandaarific!

You can either wagon a bunch of people and decide who to lynch while also getting lots of claims or you can think about things and lynch the best target I prefer the latter.

I disagree that pressuring multiple targets with a vote automatically generates a weaker end vote.
Like, if you can investigate without a vote - why can you not investigate with one?
That makes no sense.

Like what?

You tell me.[/quote]
So...my suspicion holds true, I'm NOT missing anything of note, and this is just the usual empty "you should read all the past" sort of note people toss out.
I will read chunks in due time, as I have been doing - clearly I have missed nothing of import.
Let's move forward.

Thor, I just don't see it for now. Call it gut for some extent. Maybe another game day. Spin me a better tale somewhere else if you want my vote.

But, if you're open to moving, and your defense is gut, and you want to listen to my suggestions elsewhere...eh, whatever. Copy.

@Thor

: Do you have avatars turned on?

Yes.

[Thor665]

@Aqua - Yeah, I did mix them up. (Edit - though in my defense, there is a nice conversation with him and TTH, so maybe my mistake was more justified than I first thought, hurm )

Looking at the iso though, I still don't think the tunneling issue really holds water, and I'm not sure I'm buying the intentional misunderstanding thing either - I live in a universe of people claiming I'm intentionally misunderstanding them though, so I will admit I tend to be pretty soft on that as a scumtell.

He is assuredly Keyser focused - but if that's a crime feels like you should also be calling me scum, yeah?

I also like the immediate defense of Masquerade for the replace out, very unopportunistic for a theory scum.

Thoughts?

[Thor665]

@Keyser - Holy cow, dude. Tell you what, quote me saying that my way is the only right way, or that my cases are brilliant and unarguable (in a non-joke), or that I am always (or even more often than not) right), or that I am offended by being called a butthole. Why in the universe are you getting your panties in a twist over stuff I'm not saying or doing?

Get off my back and stop whining about made up issues.
If you can't, then one of us really should replace out, because this is clearly passing beyond strategy and you apparently really believe this stuff.

As to your one point - yes, scum might defend town for the sake of doing so, they might also defend a scumbuddy replace out. However, I don't see any evidence for a scumbuddy connection between Boon/BBT, so I don't see a reason to expect that lacking evidence and don't consider it. As to the other, yes, maybe he is defending town for no real reason - but that is a scum move I would not anticipate from BBT, and thus I find it less likely than the chance that he is town assessing a town motivation (especially as he is decrying the game state as pro scum - which it was).

What is your definition of a tunnel? So far as I can see, BBT's never so much as considered lynching or pressuring anybody else today, from the very beginning of his catch-up.

Scumhunting is more than just calling someone scum.
Calling people town, and asking people for their reads on various people and (as BBT did) even inviting conversations on players outside the tunnel, is all called 'scumhuntung' in my book.

Tunneling is focusing on one player to the exclusion of all others.

if you're not doing that, then it means you're looking at multiple players and, at that stage, the worse that can be said is that you are very focused on one player.
And if you think that player is scum - that makes sense as a playstyle, you *should* be focused on someone you think is scum.

What's your definition, and in addition to that, explain how it's scummy.
Because even legit tunneling, to my mind, is only scummy insomuch as you avoid giving reads on other players. That's the beginning and the end of what makes tunneling scummy as far as I'm aware, and I don't see that from BBT in any metric.

The difference is that I feel like you are interested in getting thoughts, or at least reactions, out of other people through pushing Keyser. I don't get that vibe from BBT's posts.

Eh, you and Keyser both say that, but at the end of the day I think you get that because I'm *saying* that's what I want (well, and I'll admit in Keyser's case it's because I think he's vaguely trying to placate me for scum gain while being annoyed at me as a person).
There hasn't really been enough evidence to support that working theory yet.
But, even so, what evidence exists is just that I'm basically active and am asking questions.
BBT is basically active and is asking questions - sure, not as much as me, and maybe not in an aggressive style, but the core concept is still there in microcosm, and at that stage - what's the difference?

Meh. I don't townread the Masquerade slot, either, and it's gotten BBT out of saying anything more about the slot.

Except it hasn't - no one has questioned him about the slot at all and he went out of his way to note the slot as town, and then later to bring it up in defense from a weak, and empty, and lonely vote from TTH.
So there is no evidence to suggest he wants to avod discussing the slot, and there is evidence to suggest the opposite conclusion of what you're theorizing here.
I'm not sold.

[Thor665]

I don't say BBT has done literally nothing but talk about Keyser, but there's very little, and none of it impresses me.

So it's a case based on a matter of degrees then. That's always going to be a harder sell.

My definition is largely the same as yours, except I don't think someone has to be doing literally nothing else to be tunneling. I think BBT is indeed using his push on Keyser to avoid talking about other players very much. Like I said, he's offered very few other opinions and none of them interesting or detailed.

Outside of the opinion part "interesting"
I would note that "detailed" is a bit of a playstyle issue, and "few other" is a degree - how many pinions does he need to offer to be not scummy? He is assuredly offering some on a fair slate of players, often unasked - to my mind that is not a calculated plan to avoid giving reads, or if it is, then it's clever enough to fool me...and also obligated to still give reads to mask not giving...other...reads?

BBT didn't say anything about the Masquerade slot to TTH except about the replacement, and there's certainly more one could talk about with respect to that slot (Masquerade hopping on and off the Kain wagon early without much explanation, GuyFawkes defending Kain while being null on him, the lurking since then...)

Yes, except for mentioning the light of the sun, he did not mention the sun, and he could have talked about the heat of the sun, or the rotation of it but didn't.
This is nitpicky, isn't it?

I also feel like you're trying to sell your case on associatives, correct me if I'm wrong, but if I conclusively proved that Kain was town (or maybe that Boon was) it would put a big hole in your case on BBT, yes?
Doesn't that concern you as far as your reason for pushing the slot?

[Thor665]

Calling people town, and asking people for their reads on various people and even inviting conversations on players outside the tunnel.

active and is asking questions.

Give me a list of players in this game who ARE playing like this.

Give me a list of players in this game who ARE NOT playing like this.

Since I have accused no one in this game of tunneling, my answer would be "everyone is on the ARE NOT list."

Thor665, what's your read on GuyFawkes-Masquerade?

Masquerade read to me about how you read to me.
GuyFawkes I'm more neutral of, but if he's scum I'd toss Kaine into obv. town territory, and if he's town then he's just been a bit boring and not very proactive, and so I lack a read.

I'd pop them to L-1 if they were on L-2 just to see what happened.

@Thor join the righteous BBT wagpn. The case is at least as good as the KS case if not much better.

I disagree, I think both your and Aquanim's case on him is filled with functionally provable untruths/blind adherence to game theory.
I'm not really looking to defend the slot, as I don't find him so townie as to deserve that, but I find the push on him pretty soft on the whole beyond a conceptual pleasure of any slot being pushed to L-1 as of a day or so ago.

We can run BBT up to L-1 and force a claim if you stull wanna do that

I do, but the sweet spot for that has sailed, and everyone seems entranced with the idea of deadline lynches, so I'm of a mind to sit back and let that happen now.
If he gets to L-2 I will happily support it, you have my word, and you can use that as a selling point with anyone else you want to convince - heck, I'd basically happily support a wagon on even my town reads at this stage, just to see something happen.

[Thor665]

I still want to be convinced that this is "super obvious"/"strong town" BBT:

"He's calling people town"
"He's asking multiple people multiple questions"
"meta meta meta"

These aren't doing it for me. Why can't scum-BBT do any of the above? He should be a null-town-lean at best if that's your argument.

Aren't you quoting Boon's stance supported by my arguments here?
That is messed up.
Unless during your skim you missed that I noted I was wrong in saying BBT, and meant Boon which is less messed up, but still kind of shallow and empty (second verse, same as the first).

With 4 days to go til deadline, does anyone scum-read any from my "Would not vote, would not lynch" / "Would need a good argument to vote here" pile?

I would happily lynch pops at this stage, I would guardedly lynch Slandaar.

[Thor665]

Masquerade read to me about how you read to me.
GuyFawkes I'm more neutral of, but if he's scum I'd toss Kaine into obv. town territory, and if he's town then he's just been a bit boring and not very proactive, and so I lack a read.

I feel like he's choosing when to come in and comment... instead of being "proactive".

1. I didn't call him proactive, so...sure?
2. Everyone in this game chooses when to come in and comment - that's how a forum works. I feel like the accusation you're kind of making here is strategic lurking - and I'm not sure I disagree with it, insomuch as, yeah, sure, he's not commenting on much,but I would also note that there are many players here whom I find their level of participation low and or unhelpful, so it's not exactly unique to him either if you're trying to sell me on it being scummy. Clearly town avoid participating functionally as well. At that stage, sadly, we are left with trying to abuse people to play 'any good at all' or accepting this as null.

I combined both the "strong town" and "obvious town" sentiment of both arguments.

Except the only time I said that about BBT I misspoke a name, and was corrected and agreed with the correction, so...you combined something I didn't say and then didn't even address me when I asked if that was an error on your part.
This is yet another example of your empty posting - you're not actually communicating here even though you're writing words.
That's anti-town and pro-scum at the same time, regardless of your alignment.
I think your alignment is scum, fyi.

Can you give me a summary of "happily lynch pops".

How do you summarize a single sentence?
What I think you want is an expansion of why I would - to that I reply with "he's sitting on a vanity wagon and acting proud of it, while openly asking for other wagons to support, yet refusing to move."
At best he's town who wants to sheep, but only to certain players, which means he has a weird agenda that he can't describe - which is wonky and he should stop pretending like he's open and just list off lynch desires and be proactive.
At worst, he's scum, who won't move to certain players because he has a scum agenda - which makes more sense logically.
That makes him a valid lynch.

My only minor concern with Slandaar is that he needs to shout more now. I feel like he is waiting for something. I.e Now's the time to reveal your cards.

Slandaar hasn't even picked up his cards from the table in front of him yet.
And that's a pretty major concern even if it's an only concern.

I can't be bothered arguing theory with you so I am just not going to.

It's not like you're doing anything else in the game that it would get in the way of
Seriously, you've gone like 48 hours and done nothing.
Not even commentary.
Why in the world would you not think you should be on a lynch list for that?

So, basically, you're noting that I am fact checking myself.
Wouldn't that be a town action?

I'm not saying it's not.

I'm not saying it's not either - but it sounded like an accusation more than praise of my play.
Were you just trying to note for everyone how you think I look town?

Which is your prerogative. I'm not sold on Keyser yet

What are you doing to sell or not sell yourself on Keyser as we sit here only a few days out from deadline and no major wagon in sight?

We can run BBT up to L-1 and force a claim if you stull wanna do that

Stuff like this definitely plays into the unflipped association between the two. Does Keyser absolutely NEED to be scum for this counterwagon attempt to be scummy?

Why else would scum Ircher want to start a counterwagon?
Fear of BBT?
Belief that BBT is a PR and Keyser is not?
Belief that the Keyser wagon will go through regardless and will look bad if he's on it?
Not wanting to contradict a previous statement about Keyser= town?

I think that's about the list, do any of the, fit for you in a Ircher scum narrative?

[Thor665]

Well gosh and golly.

[Thor665]

If I am in error, please clarify.

How about you answer this - why do you think I gave BBT a "strong townread"?

Answer that and I'll answer yours - because I've already clarified your error for you.
Twice.

[Thor665]

BBT came across as a

strong townread

this page

BBT didn't post on that page.

He makes multiple comments about multiple players and expresses many views that seem open minded and built to generate discussion. Not only is this the opposite of tunneling (and shows that his focus is healthy, and not blind in any way) it also looks

immensely town

.

This is a reference to the above read - so runs into the same problem.

This doesn't look like a null or scum read to me.

Why didn't you notice where my error was pointed out - I agreed it was an error and corrected it, and the two times I specifically asked you if you had noticed my error correction?

Boonskiies' alignment isn't relevant to anything I've said about BBT, why do you think it is?

In retrospect, I'm not sure - maybe I was thinking he had been a replacement for Fawkes or something?
The core point holds with the one body though - your case is really a Kain case foremost, to my perception.

2. He did not replace for activity reasons. I would like to think he does something as town.

So, for all you know, he's a weak player who often does nothing as town? That weakens the potential thrust of your case quite a bit to an outsider, I would note.

3. I see no town reason for it. I see some reasons for scum to.

I haven't tried to interact with Titus yet, and neither have you - I also bet I could come up with a couple slots you haven't interacted with yet this game.
Does that make you scum?

Point 1 was the best though I assume you found said post and agree?

[/quote]
Didn't even look.

You should hop on Keyser now, 3 days left y'know...

[Thor665]

Oh, that's terrible - I will fix.

[Thor665]

BBT came across as a

strong townread

this page

BBT didn't post on that page.

He makes multiple comments about multiple players and expresses many views that seem open minded and built to generate discussion. Not only is this the opposite of tunneling (and shows that his focus is healthy, and not blind in any way) it also looks

immensely town

.

This is a reference to the above read - so runs into the same problem.

This doesn't look like a null or scum read to me.

Why didn't you notice where my error was pointed out - I agreed it was an error and corrected it, and the two times I specifically asked you if you had noticed my error correction?

Boonskiies' alignment isn't relevant to anything I've said about BBT, why do you think it is?

In retrospect, I'm not sure - maybe I was thinking he had been a replacement for Fawkes or something?
The core point holds with the one body though - your case is really a Kain case foremost, to my perception.

2. He did not replace for activity reasons. I would like to think he does something as town.

So, for all you know, he's a weak player who often does nothing as town? That weakens the potential thrust of your case quite a bit to an outsider, I would note.

3. I see no town reason for it. I see some reasons for scum to.

I haven't tried to interact with Titus yet, and neither have you - I also bet I could come up with a couple slots you haven't interacted with yet this game.
Does that make you scum?

Point 1 was the best though I assume you found said post and agree?

Didn't even look.

You should hop on Keyser now, 3 days left y'know...

[Thor665]

Well please move on from your bloody errors and corrections and state your Smurfing

current read of BBT and said reasons

. I don't want to waste time cleaning up your Smurf and wiping your Smurf thank you.

I'm just trying to understand why you aren't reading the game.
I don't need you to clean up my play, I'm trying to clean yours up enough to understand you.
Currently I'm understanding you're scum.

Show me "obvious"/strong" town-BBT and I will unvote.

It's as simple as that. I don't want to argue over Smurfing words.

When did I ever ask you to unvote anyone?
I don't care if you want to vote BBT - more power to you.

I don't see how it weakens anything. That could be how he plays normally but you can say that about anything without extensive meta which clearly isn't always feasible.

Yeah, but your call against him is hardly unique. I could list half the player list and apply the same tell to them, so why vote him and not them?

It's all about context.

Okay, what was the context of him not interacting with you that makes him scummy?

Didn't even look.

You are putting effort into finding scum I see.

Says the guy not doing meta research?
Meh - we all do effort in our own ways...well, some of us do effort in our own ways. I saw no reason to backtrack research a case as seemingly unsupported and uninteresting as yours. Get more votes on it and I'd pay it more mind. At the moment it is easy to ignore - the only reason it's being talked about currently is because I', poking you about it.

Too many vanity wagons.

I call vanity wagons 1 vote wagons - what do you mean when you say it?
Because to my mind we have three valid wagons and one vanity.

[Thor665]

I should steal that definition.

[Thor665]

If someone is scum-reading my town-read, I tell them why I am town-reading them. If someone is town-reading my scum-read, I tell them why I am scum-reading them. I.e you should care about where everybody puts their vote and unvote. I don't know what your game theory book says, but we lynch on the majority of votes. Every vote matters.

That is true, every vote matters.
But that BBT wagon doesn't, and negotiating with scum to unvote a slot I am not strong town reading is hardly in my top ten list of things to do this week.
You're blowing a lot of smoke trying to pick a fight about something I never indicated I cared about and then acting peeved that I don't care about it - it's weird.

[Thor665]

I felt your defence/town-read of BBT was something you cared about. I cared about it especially because I scum-read BBT, and want you to explain in detail your thoughts. I could be totally wrong about BBT, so I'm open for others to discuss why I am wrong. But talking to you, I feel like I am up against a wall.

You still seem to be operating under this strange concept that I have a strong town read there, much less one I care about.
I don't know how to keep telling you you're wrong.
I don't care enough about the slot to defend it, especially from your case, especially when it's not even a major case.

What's the case on Ircher? I'm trying not to do pre-flip associations, but I'm putting all my thoughts together for tomorrow for both sides, depending if Keyser's flips scum or town. I'm leaning more towards the scum, but it's day 1. Large room for error. I despise day 1's, not my strongest day. I really have no clue what to try and analyze until after.

Eh, if Keyser is scum I'd like to flip Ircher sooner rather than later, but if Keyser flips town I don't have any real issue with Ircher at all.

[Thor665]

Keyser is doing a decent job of looking town lately.

He's posting only theory and gross proof of not reading anything.
I am of the opposite read from you there.

[Thor665]

I am of the honest opinion, that Thor665 will only learn how bad he has been playing if I am lynched.

He can then take a step back and change his attitude, mentality, and re-think his reads, anti-town plans and self-conceit.



I town-read Thor665, and you need a logical Thor665 to contribute. Right now, he is blinded with confirmation bias and the suffocation of his own game theory that he holds so tenderly close to his heart, so much that it stops him from being a humble pro-town player. I do not think he will change his ways until I flip green.

Yeah, I'm certain your lynch will be the wakeup call of my lifetime, it will be super wonderful.

[Thor665]

I realise you're talking about Boon here. Talk to me about Boon being town please.

I already did this with Aquanim - what part of my answer to them left you confused/wanting more?

It would be easy to feign frustration a la Keyser by using Thor.

It looks immensely fake to me - the rage comes and goes and is mostly tongue in cheek now paired with not reading me while complaining that I'm unclear.

It's all a sham methinks.

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

Conversely - go and read his interplay from the page I noted him as a town read, he is talking to TTH. He makes multiple comments about multiple players and expresses many views that seem open minded and built to generate discussion. Not only is this the opposite of tunneling (and shows that his focus is healthy, and not blind in any way) it also looks immensely town.

[Thor665]

If you're too lazy to do it yourself I'm allowed to mock you, and you need to sit quietly while I take the time to dig it up for you, that's the way the system works.

[Thor665]

Less good than Keyser, better than NH. It's a null slot with low info overturn methinks.

[Thor665]

In this thread Keyser explains how good of a lynch he is.
Then complains that I want him lynched.

[Thor665]

I want to hear people's thoughts on Massive. I am not liking how the slot thinks that I am scum when that is 100% pre-flip assoc.

He is hardly unique in his associative soaked case - do you not see the others, or just find them less objectionable?

He didn't. I said that. BBT is the centerpiece of games when he's active. He doesn't stop talking. So much growth from that first game we played together, BBT. <3

Why do you like BBT so much as a person/player?
You're posting kind of generic 'rah-rah' stuff about him on a semi-regular, and I'm not sure why.

VOTE: TTH

Because iydugxutsyffxichuhxugxyc

Will hammer whatever lynch the group decides. It'll hit town. That's the Smurfy site meta though.

Your solution to the site meta is to put out an empty vote and offer to lynch whomever?
...if the site meta is bad, this is fitting right in with it, yeah?

[Thor665]

associative soaked case

If you are referring to me my cases are not posted.

Don't worry, I am well aware of your contribution thus far.

[Thor665]

I'm not town reading Guy off of his own actions. He's a scum fuck. But Day 1 it's really easy to seem like a scum fuck. He's not someone I'd like to Day 1 lynch; no info really comes from that in the chance he wouldn't flip scum. Keyser has a good chance of flipping scum, and if he flipped town, there are loads of info tells.

I don't remember you being an info lynch guy. My memory is bad sometimes though.

Show me a game where you have used info lynch as part of your reasoning as town to choose one target over another.

I suggest everyone makes sure he does this.

I am suggesting PL Pisskop.

He isn't contributing much and refuses to be civil or make decent, constructive posts. Instead, he keeps trolling everyone and making the game unpleasant. If he doesn't get replaced, I strongly sugges Policy Lynching him.

Don't consider PL without any information coming out of it. Like, what would the point of PL be in this case? We would get absolutely no information, we would be down another townie in the night phase, possibly a PR. This does nothing but help scum, especially at that point in the day.

Done.
Have you ever played with Boon before?
He comments about info all the time.

[Thor665]

Done.
Have you ever played with Boon before?
He comments about info all the time.

Sorry I am picky. Get another one where he is choosing scum over scum.

PL is different.

Wait, you want a day where Boon is town, town is wagoning two scum, and Boon picks between them by noting which is a better info lynch?
Double scumwagons barely even happen, much less to start putting derp limiters on them.

[Thor665]

Tell you what - find him using that as an excuse when scum and I'll find it as town.
This is dumb meta.

[Thor665]

If I ever say I want to lynch someone because there is more info lynching them over another player you can guarantee I am scum.

Sure.

Are you Boon?
Because last I checked you guys played different.

(Intentionally ignoring Keyser's request)

[Thor665]

Like, by that logic you are scum, because you play differently than I would because I wouldn't derp around so long and offer bad meta.
So that case on you is equally valid as your case on Boon.
Slightly sexier actually, because it also makes you a valid PL.

[Thor665]

"Slightly sexier actually, because it also makes you a valid PL." - what does this Smurf mean?

It means that a lynch on Slandaar based off the reasons offered makes more sense than a lynch off of Boon based on the reasons Slandaar offered, due to being of equal value, except my raised issues also meet PL qualifications, whereas his does not.

I never stated intent to lynch off that "case" and if you read it in context you'll note that it was actually a defense of Boon/attack of Slandaar/pointing out of poor play and never a serious intent to lynch anyone.

But you don't read in context, because you're scum, and keep making mountains of molehills and asking me to defend meaningless gak instead of just reading what I'm saying.
Sometimes I may even buy that I'm hard to understand - but I don't think anyone besides you seriously thought I was suggesting a PL.
Anyone can feel free to chime in and tell me I'm wrong on that one

Later I'll claim unlynchable to get you to unvote me..

[Thor665]

@Titus

Keyser Soze (4) - Thor665, GuyFawkes, BlueBloodedToffee, Boonskies
Titus (1) - popsofctown
Boonskies (1) - Slandaar
Aquanim (1) - KainTepes
BlueBloodedToffee (1) - Aquanim
Ircher (1) - massive
GuyFawkes (1) - Keyser Soze, Ircher, TTH

Not voting (1) - Titus

With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch someone.

(expired on 2016-03-13 08:31:00) remain until day end

[Thor665]

Fawkes is at three though, number is wrong, people are right.

[Thor665]

Titus's posting style was much more protown in the previous game I played with her where she was town.

Is it the lurking?
That's all I've noticed here that feels different from her norm.

[Thor665]

I ninja-ed the hell out of you.

Also - yes.

[Thor665]

Titus's posting style was much more protown in the previous game I played with her where she was town.

Is it the lurking?
That's all I've noticed here that feels different from her norm.

[Thor665]

Thor, 1+1+1=3

Stop making errors please, it's distracting. Please post your reads x

Fawkes is at three though, number is wrong, people are right.

(Intentionally ignoring Keyser's request)

You did drop that Slandaar bit like a wet blanket though - good job not going full rabbit hole.

[Thor665]

Yup. Well I haven't given a single decent or supported read. So yeah, I'd say my style is different.

That's part and parcel of the lurk - you haven't done anything because you haven't posted anything, not even reactions to wagons that exist.

[Thor665]

Yup. Well I haven't given a single decent or supported read. So yeah, I'd say my style is different.

That's part and parcel of the lurk - you haven't done anything because you haven't posted anything, not even reactions to wagons that exist.

Yup.

Would you help hammer yourself if we got you to L-1?

[Thor665]

One plus one plus one equals fucking three. FFS. Had enough of your fucking errors. How difficult is it? Now have your fucking ice cream.

How old are you?

[Thor665]

Vote one of the big wagons.

Your current options are Guy or Keyser - vote the one you find scummier.

[Thor665]

@Thor
Tell me why you are being antitown to KS.

Other than the last comment I made to him, which I suppose could be taken as anti-town though I question why you then wouldn't ask why he's being anti-town to me, I don't think I'm being anti-town to him at all.

The last spate of misrepping, cussing, and insanity was just so over the top I reacted with laughter and felt the need to poke him with a stick to amuse myself (I had to either be amused or annoyed, and opted for amused).
You are noticing how he's kind of randomly rage spewing at me while making up/over blowing things, right? Boon noticed it - don't you? I mean, it'd be easy to prove as he's just going nutzo on it, so you must see it. I disagree with Boon in thinking it's scummy, but it is really weird and distracting, and I am not encouraging it in 19 of my last 20 posts, so...why do you think I'm the one causing the fervor? Like, outside of the age post what non-game relevant dig have I done o him in like the past 48 hours?

Because there is a vast array of them he's done to me.
So why do you think I'm the issue here - specifically?

How old are you?

You creepy Smurf. Can we please leave race/age/gender out of discussion. Let's just play the game. Share your reads please.

My bad, I thought when you cussed me out and called me stupid multiple times I was allowed to joke back at you - if we're taking this all seriously then you owe me a lot of apologies.

[Thor665]

No lynching til I have time to analyze the last few pages

Keyser is in the lead, and he's at L-2, methinks you have some time yet.
Did you think he was at L-1 already?

[Thor665]

Read my spoilers. KS is acting somewhat less amicable to you, but its your antitown play that has caused this. I badtown read you.

What about my play is anti-town?

[Thor665]

No lynching til I have time to analyze the last few pages

Keyser is in the lead, and he's at L-2, methinks you have some time yet.
Did you think he was at L-1 already?

I can count, ty vm

Were you expecting two people to hop on very quickly in the next few hours?

[Thor665]

@Thor - Refusing to provide reads when asked, suggesting to run people to l-1 & force an unneccessary claim, being inhospitable to the game, and being stuck in your arrogant, thinks he is a god behavior.

Spoiler: Theory and dismissal

1. I have not offered a reads list, but even some of the players you suggested I hadn't offered reads on (Guy, Boon) I had. And, actually, no one asked me for a reads list besides a player I consider scum, and I have always offered reads on anyone I was asked about. So, I don't think this point holds water.

2. I don't think this is anti-town at all, I think going to the deadline is anti-town. I'm afraid we might need to just disagree on that one.

3. I don't think I have been inhospitable - can you explain how I have? I, frankly, think I have been the soul of calm with Keyser's posts towards me. Can you maybe show me where I've been rude towards someone in a matter other than suggesting they aren't playing well - you're allowed to do that in the game (indeed, you're doing it to me, so if that's inhospitable, everyone does it).

4. Can you show me this so-called arrogance? Like, where I claimed only I was right? Or where I claimed I had the only correct way. I *do* tend to suggest that voting and pushing is the proper play, but even back in point #1 you're telling me that I have to give names and lists of reads - so you *are* aware that if you think a style of play is helpful for the town that you should try to get people to play that way...is that arrogance? Because if it is, then aren't we both doing it? And if so, isn't over half this game? And at that stage, why am I the special one?

I don't really buy it.

@Thor - Ircher feels like new scum trying to protect a buddy. This being said, I don't think Ircher is scum w/o Keyser also being scum.

You are repeating back to me a read I already gave to you a while ago - my views haven't changed.

It is a possibility; again, I abs. hate lynches that don't go til deadline

Egads!

[Thor665]

If he flips scum, I'm going for Ircher/pop.

Pop's the safer bet. Again, the main case against me is an association case. I dont think one should lynch pn that alone

After a flip, an association case becomes quite valid I would think - don't you try to assess who the scum seemed to really want lynched, in order to puzzle out other town, and who the scum seemed to defend in order to spot scumbuddies?

Why shouldn't we use associations?

[Thor665]

Alright Thor, maybe I am conf. bias you on antitown play. We can at least agree that its mainly Keyser you have problems with, right?

If by "problem" you mean scumread, then yes.
I have no idea where your conf. bias on that came from, it was out of left field and based on dust.

Also, I am requesting a readlist from you, as well as everyone else

No one is even going to respond to this.
Readslists are kind of dumb anyway.

I've called Boon, BBT, you, and Aqua town or townish already.
I've called Guy null.
I've intimated willingness to PL Titus and Slandaar.
I've called Keyser scum.

All of this information is already in my iso, but here it is consolidated for the sake of, whatever sake that brings.

[Thor665]

Ty, that's what I wanted -- That's why I like readlists -- They are compact and exhibit your current stance in a single post, so people don't have to go searching for it, and generally coming to wrong conclusions

There was a lot of doubt about my scum reads?
And as for my town reads - usually those would only matter if they changed, and if they changed I'd either have to explain the change when it happens or, be caught by it later - and if you're constantly asking for updates and I'm scum I'm not going to be caught by surprise that a read changed, I'll have my little running tally to reference.
:shrug:

[Thor665]

Going back and looking - I had only one read substantively change, the BBT one, and I made it very clear when that happened.

[Thor665]

Who'd you lynch if KS scum and if KS town?

I've already answered who I'd lynch if he flips scum, in fact I have discussed it multiple times.
If he flips town I'd probably want to lynch someone who voted him, can't make a value call on that until the imaginary wagon happens.

That the Guy wagon has catapulted into the lead as a lurker compromise doesn't exactly fill me with sunshine and buttercups towards Keyser's slot though, especialy with the wagon flow of Thor -> Titus -> Guy that happened, all while Keyser is sitting there. To my mind when multiple flail alternate wagons are happening, my immediate thought is - why aren't scum hopping on/already sitting on the strong one. Okay, maybe two scum are already voting Keyser and the town is just running around like a chicken with its head cut off because it senses a bad wagon...but I don't really feel that narrative here.

@Aquanim
@Ircher

Both of you are noting Slandaar as town(ish) and at least Ircher noted him for strength of contributions. Are we reading the same slot? He's literally done nothing today. Yeah, he's "commented" but he hasn't offered stances or serious votes, and both of you have whined about me not offering stances clearly enough, and I'm offering 100% more than he is, so...what the hell, what magical crack is he feeding you to make what he's doing okay? I don't scum read the slot, but to have anything other than null for him seems insane. What am I missing here?

[Thor665]

I post great content Thor which is how you should read me.

Don't worry, I absolutely read you from your offered content.

I think you misinterpret me when I ask things from you. Your stance is somewhat clear, but I like it all neat and concise in a single post for future reference

I understand - you want me to do your bookkeeping for you.

Why didn't you answer my question to you about Slandaar?
You quoted it, but no answer.

[Thor665]

Again, its his more outward perspective. Too many of us are caught in conf bias

I will agree he is not caught in "conf. bias".
Of course, he hasn't really offered any reads at all either.
Are you saying that's preferable?

[Thor665]

Other than Keyser, can you describe any of his other reads to me?

[Thor665]

And I'm accepting Keyser only because he's at least now voting him and called him scummy at the same time - 24 hours ago I would have questioned that value call too.

[Thor665]

@Thor, @Slandaar

- Do you believe Titus's claim that Guy is a mason?

I can see it, sure.
Doesn't matter, I had already indicated that I didn't like the wagon flow as it existed and was calling it scum driven.

@Titus - even if your theory concept of a scum team is correct - Keyser still looks solid as a potential third, and besides the odd calling out of a scum shot (which I don't get behind as much as you do as to it being a solid tell) Keyser still looks like a stronger scum case to me because my Ircher issues are based within the interaction to Keyser. I'll agree there is the ugly as hell wagon, sure, but your Guy case is potentially open ended, Keyser's reactions towards the wagon are also suspect, and the connections between Ircher and Slandaar, if you like them, are equally strong for Ircher and Keyser - plus we don't need to bother building a wagon for the Keyser lynch.

I'd rather lynch Keyser.

If it's a deadline or Ircher, you have me, and, frankly, if Keyser falls apart for Ircher you'll probably get me. But enough of his posting looks a little derpy newb townie that I'm not really buying it. The best you have is the hardcore sheep/WKing of Keyser to my mind to suggest Ircher is scum and Keyser isn't - but I don't think that pans out with the expressed nervousness of wanting to distance in case Keyser flips scum - as I don't quite think Ircher would play that sort of gambit and also be giving me the newb vibes he's giving me.

[Thor665]

tl:dr - I mildly buy your case, but I think Keyser is a more obvious screaming scumbuddy to Ircher, even if Ircher is scum, and I see Keyser scum without Ircher scum, and not so much the reverse.

[Thor665]

Why would Ircher scum, WKing Keyser, make the following commentary on multiple occasions;

Last thing: I do realize that with my strong townread of Keyser and constant and consistent town-reading of Keyser throughout this post will inevitably lead to an association case if Keyser were to flip. Please don't make assumptions until then though.

You're suggesting it's a double bluff for wifom?

[Thor665]

3 hours left and I'm coming back to utter derpmania,

This does not fill me with joy.

[Thor665]

So we had Keyser at L-2 with Titus agreed to shift over (L-1) and then BOON of all people unvotes the slot to chase the Ircher wagon, and I'll happily admit Ircher's play looks ugly, but...seriously, what the hell?

Enough people have come out anti-Ircher lynch that the only way it's happening is if Slandaar shows up and moves and I move also (though at least I expressed willingness to do so, who knows what the hell Slandaar is thinking).

Meanwhile my scum reads are wagoning up Guy for not claiming when he wasn't in hammer threat range and calling that scummy play

@Ircher - aren't you glad we used "all the time" and didn't force a claim earlier - now we get to lynch someone in a sloppy compromise manner with no claim - pro town, amirite!?!

[Thor665]

Ircher is at L-3 by my count, I have no idea where Boon got the idea he was at L-2.
That means even if I get Titus I need one more.

[Thor665]

Titus = Slandaar.

[Thor665]

Okay, so as stands, Ircher wagon is dead because not enough votes exist for it.
Keyser wagon is dead because Titus and Boon can't do vote maths.
Guy wagon exists and is a null slot covered in my scum reads.

Seriously - screw all of you.

[Thor665]

Slandaar has literally never offered any read on Guy (shock of shocks)
Kain has called the slot town.
Titus refuses to vote it and is offline.
Boon has stated he is offline.
massive is AWOL.



Fine, I'll be the axe man.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
STOP!

Hammertime.

Vote: GuyFawkes

If he's town, tomorrow we fething lynch Keyser and I will repeatedly explain how "using all the time" is pro-scum for those who still don't get that simple lesson.
If he's scum Keyser can be confirmed scum, and I'll sheep BBT on that Titus lynch or lead a charge on a Boon lynch.

[Thor665]

Hey Thor,

Why is Ircher scum?

I have answered this question multiple times yesterday - my short answer is; in connection with Keyser, which, incidentally, is why I have not expressed strong desire to lynch him, and have called him newbie town multiple times.

Why - what thoughts of mine were you reading to get any thought besides that into your head to make you ask me to present a case I'd already presented twice again?

[Thor665]

Everyone sheeps me tomorrow.

[Thor665]

@Thor I knew you'd be willing to compromise.

You either don't know me, or were very lucky that I was indifferent towards the Guy slot.
I am serious about my attitude towards the play today, and also that we ended up hammering prior to a claim.

[Thor665]

I did.

[Thor665]

So if Pops didn't, I would prefer to think I'm right about Aqua, so let's go with TTH as scum.

[Thor665]

So you were the scum then?
Nice.

VOte: TTH

I crumbed my role yesterday - what have you got scum boi?

[Thor665]

Unless your claim is that Boon and I are scum, I'd love to hear your action and PR claim.

Tick-tock, tick-tock.

[Thor665]

In that case it would be you or Aquanim - if Aqua it makes me sad, or Boon will call you or Pops a liar - which will make you scum.

Eh...

That said you wouldn't run that gambit short of being dumb.

Unvote: TTH
Vote: Aquanim

I crumbed, what have you got scum boi?

[Thor665]

Agreed, that isn't subtle.

[Thor665]

At this stage it's either Aqua - or scum flat out lied and then it's easy.

[Thor665]

Though Aqua didn't actually claim that he did or didn't target which, y'know, if it's him should also make it easy.
But I'm ready to have that argument in due course.

[Thor665]

You revealed your gambit too soon, your results are not good at the moment, you had too many softs and not enough awareness of scum actions.

Unvote: Aquanim
Vote: Keyser

[Thor665]

Just for gigs, what are you claiming, Thor? Haha.

I'm claiming Gunsmith - Haha.

Your gambit is massively full of holes - the scum nuthugging you at least have excuses for not pointing that out to you. You, and the town too dim to notice, have less excuses.

After my flip - someone smack Boonskies in the face and tell him to talk to me postgame about how dumb his gambit was.
Then lynch Keyser like we should have on Day 1.
Thank you.

[Thor665]

I don't get why you doubt Kain's PR. Also, I have absolutely NO IDEA how you can even consider the possibility of Thor gunsmith. He's not town. Like...he's not. He's confirmed scum.

Oh dear gawd - we will be talking post game.

[Thor665]

I'm not seeing why a town-investigative-Thor would have not wanted to lynch or even pressure Kain d1 after Kain softclaimed an investigative role.

I'm not seeing why I would - you're claiming I should have automatically assumed that it was impossible to have two investigative town roles because that's so strange and rare...?

Because it's not - there are double investigative all the time.

[Thor665]

But not two strong ones.

1. Yes, that happens too.
2. How do you know he's a strong investigative already?

Thor -- why not check Keyser?

Because we were going to lynch Keyser - meanwhile I couldn't get a read off a slot doing bupkiss, so getting an investigative on him would have allowed me to sort him, something I otherwise couldn't do.

[Thor665]

AND I GOT "No Result".... WHICH MEANS THAT I THINK SHE IS CONFIRMED TO BE A SCUM MEMBER WHO CAN HIDE HER ROLE FROM INVESTIGATION!!!!!!

[Thor665]

WHY ARE YOU THINKING THEY COULDN'T HAVE BEEN JAILED BY AN ALIEN, OR THAT YOU WERE ROLEBLOCKED, OR THAT YOU ARE LYING SCUM FAKING DERP-INESS? ALL OF THOSE ALSO, LIKE GODFATHER, EXIST!

Like, seriously, whut?

[Thor665]

Also, are you claiming Cop - because unless you're claiming Cop there are about a dozen other ways you could get a no result that don't make him scum.
Also, if you're claiming Cop you are the lynch tomorrow.

[Thor665]

if she was TOWN i will get not guilty!!!!

And if she was scum you'd get 'Guilty' wouldn't you?
This game...it's like it's full of people not engaging upper brain functions.