NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[Juls]

Who's the towniest person to give me the cliff notes version of this game? I will probably sheep them until I can get a handle on it.

[Juls]

Awww...being a mason isn't as much fun when you know I am a mason.

[Juls]

Tell me about VitaminR. Looks like my friends and predecessor was unimpressed.

[Juls]

Ok, I'm about to start my read. Can you give me any explicitly stated claims other than masons before I do?

[Juls]

I forgot how verbose you old timers were :/

[Juls]

Question: Spyrex's slot...why so many replaces?

[Juls]

Through page 10...I'm posting this to remind myself and so you guys know where I am at. I'm not explaining anything until I get closer to day 4 cause you probably don't remember anyway and it may be irrelevant now. Reads exclude my mason buddies for obvious reasons

Town reads: chamber, std, dgb(maybe, not strong)
Scum reads: Vit, Green Crayons

[Juls]

Well it's going to take me awhile, I read slow and you guys like words. I will keep up on this side too. Just consider one of my mason buddies a double voter for this day.

[Juls]

Probably Sotty...just cause I know her but it may just be whichever one's vote makes the most sense. Neither of them are voting right now correct?

[Juls]

DGB, do you think VitR is town?

[Juls]

Yeah, I have to say, 3092 is pretty icky.

[Juls]

Is 4 living scum confirmed?

[Juls]

Are*

[Juls]

With 3 masons though...it could be one more maybe?

[Juls]

It's going to take me a week or so to catch up. I would appreciate if we could hold off on lynching so that I can have meaningful conversations with my mason buddies in the night.

[Juls]

@Juls: You're conftown mason with two buddies who have been here throughout the game. I think they can probably give you the information you need in nighttalk if you want to let us go to night without finishing your reread.

True but then I can't give them my thoughts and bounce my own reads off of them. It's inevitable that one of us will die so I would really like to have three way (bow chicka bow wow) communication with them. What's the rush anyway? It seems things are pretty heated. Decide on a lynch, intent your votes then prod dodge a bit and take a breather. Looks like an OGML replacement will need to catch up too.

[Juls]

UNVOTE:

[Juls]

Catching up on the last 30 odd pages.

Hey Juls, where you at on your re-read? Who are your current scum reads?

P.S: Also <3

Page 4.
And Loud Mouth Lee.

I started over. I found that I was just reading and I wasn't absorbing anything. When I put it down and came back to it I was lost. So I am sitting at my computer right now and focusing and taking notes. I promise to be caught up by the end of the day Saturday, maybe sooner, but definitely then! I'm going to try to copy/paste some pages into word or something so I can read them at work (shhh!). It's just real hard to read on my iphone and I do have a sick baby at the moment and {insert another excuse}.

I promise, I will catch up. Promise. And <3. And Sorry.

[Juls]

You don't have to be sorry, this game is insanely hard. The mixture of great players and just volume of posting is making it hard to digest. You have any thoughts about the current posting or are you not keeping up too much?

I didn't like 3092 from Yosarian. And I have seen glimmers of that aggressive playstyle I remember from DGB in Flay's War in Heaven II game (where she was scum). I have played two games with DGB, in both she was scum, so I am naturally always suspicious of her. I also didn't like Bookitty basically saying she wouldn't wait for me to catch up. I see no town motivation to NOT let me catch up. I get that you guys have been playing this for months but I am a confirmed town slot and it would probably be a good idea to get my views for that reason alone. I don't think waiting a week will hurt anybody.

[Juls]

Do what you gotta do. It's just an opinion.

[Juls]

Well yay then. Now I can read with looking at two scum interactions!

Thanks DGB, cheer for us from the dead!

[Juls]

I want to lynch Yosarian based on lots of interactions. Disclaimer, I am not caught up. Also, if Yosarian is scum then Vit is scum but otherwise Vit is probably town. Also, also I have a little quote from MafiaSSK that makes me think that mathcam isn't scum.

oh but I don't know if I'm ready. my body's saying yes, but my heart is saying yes...

Wait a minute.

Vote: LML

Wait. Why? Do you think your mind could chime in here?

Seems like genuine surprise. More later.

VOTE: Yosarian

[Juls]

I'll elaborate when I get home. I'm on my phone and my notes are on my PC.

[Juls]

So just transcribing a few of my notes (please don't ignore them cause you are set in your reads)

255 - he sets up an if Vit is scum LML is town (one reason to suspect LML/Vit/Yos)
290 - comment about LML and Vit being buddies
289 thru 318- really light investigations of LML but puts vote on nati completely throwing aside all conversations with LML
379 - votes LML while retracting suspicion of Vit
381 - over the top declaration of STD as town
381-401 - lots of direct interactions between Yos/lml/std
433 - another comment of if LML is scum, Vit is town. See the reciprocal in 255

[Juls]

So don't waste my time reading 140+ pages? Cause to be honest, if you are going to ignore me I am not going to waste my time and will just hold the slot until it's my turn to get night killed.

[Juls]

Where do you get that list of names?

[Juls]

At the lake. Will post later.

[Juls]

I know I keep saying this but with summer winding up I have been really busy. I should have some time to read and respond tomorrow. Obviously still not caught up but I would like to at least get through day 1 tomorrow.

[Juls]

I am in process of reading now and should get through at least day 1. Just an FYI. Will post something more tonight. While I am busy, I am trying to get through this game and post my thoughts. I have the benefit of knowing 2 scum flips as I reread which gives me unique perspective on the game. I really wish we could keep this day open for a little while. One of the masons will likely die in the night so I think it would be a good idea to get my feedback. I have already said this, I know but I think it bares repeating.

@ABR - I do have one question for you, if you can remember. You were adamant that PJ was scum toward the end of day 1 but really never elaborated as to why (at least so far). Can you either tell me what led to that read or tell me what post I can expect that reasoning in? Thanks!

[Juls]

Alright, I said my goal was to make it through day one and I did. Plus I did 5 extra pages for bonus points. For those who don't want to look back on when day one ended, that means I am up through page 40. I'll try to get through another 20 or so pages tomorrow with the goal of being fully caught up by the weekend. I know I said that last weekend but then

stuff

started coming up left and right. As I write this I am still trying to determine the best way to present my thoughts. (Edit: it took me so long to do Yosarian that this is all I am going to do for tonight. I will write up my notes/reads on everyone else tomorrow)

Yosarian2

Possibly Mafia with:

VitaminR

Probably not Mafia with:

Porochaz, mathcam(weak), Bookitty

Yosarian is my biggest scum read as of right now. I gather this isn't a popular opinion but I will try to present the

why

the best I can.

First, as I have mentioned previously, I see a trend of what I have been calling a 'chain-bus' of Yos->LML/Vit. First, Yosarian votes VitaminR due to his early vote on LML. Then here he explains

why

he voted him in more detail which, as explained, had to do with VitaminR 'already knowing' SSK and Tigris' alignment (basically white knighting these two against LML). The fun part is, I read this post as Yosarian knowing too much information. In post 255, he sets up the scenario of 'if Vit flips scum, LML will be more townie. And later on he presents the opposite (if LML flips scum, Vit is town). He also makes a point in 290 to mention the pairing to UT. A buddy of both of them would want to make these statements so that he may strong-town-read the other in the event one of them gets lynched. Later, when the winds have clearly shifted to LML over VitR, he retracts his suspicion of VitR in favor of lynching LML.

Next is Post 381 in which he throws out an over-the-top town read of STD out there. The reason that most sticks out to me is:

So either he's righteous town cloaked in the paladin-like armor of righteousness, or he's gone completely suicidal. No way a scum pretending to scumhunt would stick their neck out that far.

Knowing that STD is scum just makes this quote stand out so much. It just seems so sure and he was prepared to stick to his guns with it with the "completely suicidal" comment. Then, for good measure, LML chides Yosarian for calling STD town.

Another thing that is concerning about Yosarian is that I see a lot of weak/benign interactions with both LML and STD which feel like interaction for interaction sake. Here are a few I noted:
Post 289: Asks LML to explain his stance on Tigris again.
Post 302: LML's response to the question, basically a recap of his RVS.
Post 318: Yos comes back with...no, 'really explain' your thought process. Um...you get him Yos! /sarcasm. OK, so this feels like

maybe

it is moving in the direction of a vote or suspicion or something and then he feels the need to policy vote Natirasha which just feels like a white knight against evil lurkers. I can't be 100% sure but I don't think he has done this since.
Post 325: STD pipes in with a response to Yosarian (which wasn't directed at him at all). It feels like STD thought, hey, I am not interacting with Yosarian enough, I better pepper some conversation in to/about him.
Post 327: A response regarding meta to STD, without any real application to this game.
Post 377: STD basically agreeing that they have differing opinions on this meta. Again, nothing game related here, more meta talk with a little "I disagree with Yos" peppered in for good measure.
Post 380: This response to STD is a little beefier but it's not like he is talking to STD directly it's more of an opportunity to present his reads/further his theory discussion.
Post 393: Most of this post is directed at Yosarian. Lots of quotes followed by responses but none of it is substantial or even pressing.
Post 396: LML asks Yos if he is skimming.
Post 397: More theory directed at STD from Yosarian
Post 401: Tells LML consistency is a scumtell.
Post 455: LML's "Yos is only happy when it rains" comment. Having read LML for 19 pages I am starting to get a feel for him and this just seems like something he would say to a scumbuddy to distance.
Post 498: STD says he is willing to vote Yos. Potential bus.
Post 653: LML implores Yosarian and GC to try to figure out if it is just his playstyle that they are having a problem with. I kinda read this as a hint from LML to Yos (and/or possibly GC) to stop bussing.
Post 913: Yos throws out some town reads with explanations. He throws STD in there but doesn't elaborate as to why. To be fair, he did have his over the top explanation of why STD was town earlier in day one but this is now day two. You would think he would at least give something.

Just another random post that doesn't fit into the categories I set forth above, I feel like post 511 comes off as another unnatural white-knighting for town (finger-wagging at MafiaSSK for asking to be entertained).

About the only post I liked from Yosarian was post 568. The reason I liked it was because he called out LML for being "odd" when he left his RVS vote on Tigris despite FoSing SSK. However, even in this post, I can't convince myself that this is not fake-able as scum because if a post strikes you as odd, it strikes you as odd even if it is your scum buddy making the post.

Lastly, as for the list above of who he is/is not mafia with, here are my explanations. Obviously I have explained why I think he could be mafia with VitR. The reason I think he couldn't be mafia with Porochaz is due to post 571. Here, Yosarian was essentially asking Porochaz to elaborate on why he thought 'stirring shit up' was scummy. I feel like Porochaz explained in a great deal of detail in a way that I wouldn't expect a mafia member to explain to another mafia member. It feels like Porochaz really wants Yosarian to understand his point of view. The reason I can't see Yosarian as partners with mathcam is because of Post 615. In this post Yosarian quizzes mathcam on what information we would get from a Bookitty lynch and who would he want to lynch if she did flip VT. This actually feels like a genuine question and not one I would expect mafia to ask another mafia. However, I am not extremely certain this couldn't be a partner-question so this non-partnership link is weak at best. Finally, he isn't scum with Bookitty because of post 711. Here he is setting up a lynch of CES if/when Bookitty flips town.

[Juls]

I'm reading now and can I just say that you guys should be ashamed of lynching Glork. Terrible reasons! Granted I still have a ways to go in day 2 but this guy is bleeding green at this point. (Yes, yes confirmation bias...but still!)

[Juls]

Based on my read thus far (56 pages) I am fine with any of the people currently getting votes plus Bookitty. I do wish you guys would give me until Tuesday though before lynching. I have Monday off and I am trying to get caught up and post by the weekend. / broken record

[Juls]

I will say that in my reread ABR has very few associations with dead scum. I just have yet to see the OMG-town posts I have been hearing about in the present. Yos and GC have the most interactions that don't feel natural. There are some interactions between mathcam and STD that do not look like buddies. I can reference them all for you given time (/broken record). I would be super shocked if chamber or Mbl were scum.

[Juls]

I can provide this in the morning. My notes are on my PC and I am currently in bed on my ipad.

[Juls]

Psst did you forget that we (Juls, Sotty, undo) are confirmed masons? Like seriously, those are all bright green names, not poop yellow.

[Juls]

Big time confirmed. Stupidest gambit ever otherwise!

[Juls]

There are some interactions between mathcam and STD that do not look like buddies. I can reference them all for you given time (/broken record).

Interesting. Where? If you don't have time to explain, just post numbers would be fine.

This first and will try to get more up later today (depending on my kids behave)

I am skimming back through my notes and think I overstated this. There was one very early and I thought I had noted more but I don't see them right off the bat. Perhaps when I do a more detailed post I will remember what I saw. The one early, by SSK, I already mentioned. Post 235.

oh but I don't know if I'm ready. my body's saying yes, but my heart is saying yes...

Wait a minute.

Vote: LML

Wait. Why? Do you think your mind could chime in here?

Seems like pretty genuine surprise to me. I am trying to imagine in my own head a buddy saying this to a buddy who is voting a buddy. It doesn't really compute but I suppose it isn't impossible.

[Juls]

Just out of curiousity, Yosarian, do you have any comments about my Post 3675?

[Juls]

I am going to do these one at a time and since Wolverine is so rushy-rushy I will start with him. I wouldn't say ABR is in my top 3 for scum but he isn't as townie as present-day talk seems to indicate in my opinion. I am still waiting for him to be THAT. I am only through page 56 but I feel like if I dont get these out you all will end the day.

ABR

Possibly mafia with:

Porochaz

I am not crazy about the hard-and-early scum-read on LML. It rings as knowing too much. His first vote on LML was page 4 and he continued to push him throughout day one. Plus here, he moves back to LML after voting PJ for less than 2 hours. The PJ jump might be an attempt to push the day a different direction but then the quick jump back seems like he didn't think it was going to happen. Then he goes back to PJ completely reversing his read on LML. I thought it might be reaction testing but I never saw anything to indicate that later.

I also made note of the fact that CTD claimed that this is not ABR's town meta. I haven't played with ABR in years but I remember getting an extremely strong town read on him when he was, in fact, town. I don't get this here at all. The reason I have listed Porochaz as a potential buddy with ABR is the fact that Poro dismisses CTD saying this referencing a recent game with ABR and then CTD read what Poro was linking and disagrees with Poro's assessment.

As for interactions with dead scum, there isn't alot. There's a little banter from LML and a useless question here and there but nothing major.

There were three other things I didn't like about ABR on reread as well. First was his town reads list early day one. Specifically DGB and farside. DGB had only made 1-2 posts and farside barely did anything, I think she asked a question and not even a good one at that. The other thing is coming into day 2 and setting forth the Bookitty wagonas where we needed to lynch from. If you look at that wagon now, you will see that there are Sotty, Shanba, CES, undo, CTD on the wagon plus chamber and mathcam. I have a strong town read on chamber so viewing this post through retrospective glasses, I really hate it. Similarly, he guarantees DGB that we will lynch PJ and Sotty upon her flip. Again, retrospective glasses says this is yuck.

As for town-vibes, I liked post 1276 in response to DGB's flip-flop on ABR. And....that's about it.

[Juls]

mathcam/SSK

Possible scum with:

SpyreX(inhim..et al)

Not scum with:

Yosarian (weak), ABR

Interactions with dead scum: So the first thing I noticed was that LML said that the interaction betwen SSK and STD was "off". I am not sure how to interpret it, I will let you smarter folks dive into that but it was an interaction I felt was worth noting. There were also a few weak/possible readable interactions from STD. He asked a weak question here. He said he believed the complete opposite of him here. One other thing that I think could be a

slip

was when mathcam quoted something in 1339 and indicated as it coming from inhim but it was really from STD. I can totally see scum confusing two buddies. STD pointed it out in 1346 (that it was really his comment).

I also feel the need to remind people what my predecessor noted in post 514 with regard to a mathcam/SSK and LML pairing:

Update: Actually, looking over their posts again, the pairing actually looks quite plausible. While LoudmouthLee initially FoS'd MafiaSSK, he has declined to push MafiaSSK in the slightest. Since the initial FoS, he has only talked about MafiaSSK in the context of (i) Tigris' vote on MafiaSSK and (ii) the fact that MafiaSSK was a bandwagoned player. And the only mention MafiaSSK has made of LoudmouthLee was to question why Save the Dragons voted for LoudmouthLee.

From just a play standpoint, I thought SSK's case on CES was very weak and presented in a strong way (i.e., a large wall). He also did his definition of scumtell which I read as either trying too hard or scum, I am not sure which. Also the below could VERY likely be a slip:

As for CTD-CES, often times in games without daytalk it is beneficial for a scum to remark on their partner's posts and let them know in a discreet way if they are in support or against the direction that they are going in.

It was discussed afterwards, but how does he know that scum don't have daytalk? I think this is something that should NOT be forgotten. Because the masons don't have daytalk, I assume scum do not as well.

When mathcam entered the game, I also noted several things on him. For starters, his post 587 was reasonable and he gives a slight scum read on LML and Bookitty. In his next post, he chose the former as the more-scummy option but I didn't get that from the text of his 587.

On day two, he posted a list of reads but didn't throw down a vote. He also made a reasonable case on ABR in this post for his associations with LML. It's for this reason I don't think ABR/mathcam are scum together.

Then there is what I like to call the plus/minus debacle. Holy shit, that is the worst proof I have ever seen that someone is actually doing what he said he was doing. I was already waiting for this thinking it might put him in the town column but that list did nothing for me.

Then there was the mercy-kill debacle. That was ugly. Especially knowing DGB was town. That is NOT a pro-town sentiment AT ALL.

The only real town vibes I have gotten from SSK/mathcam was the thing I have already mentioned twice where he showed surprise at STD voting LML. And his reasoning on ABR/LML associations.

After writing this up, I would be perfectly fine with lynching mathcam today.

[Juls]

Ah crap. I forgot a couple things on mathcam....

Here and here he mentioned that if he had been there at deadline he "would have" hammered LML. I don't know why he feels the need to drive this home or why he thinks this makes him more town (even as town). Of course you are going to say you would have hammered LML. Why would you say different?

And I didn't like his assumption that DGB was town when wanting to "compare exit strategies" of DGB town. Why didn't he ask for DGB's exit strategies as scum?

And I found the other interaction that led me to think he "might" be town. STD dedicated a whole big post in descent of mathcam. I am not sure a buddy would bus another buddy so hard after one just got lynched. Although he didn't vote him either so there's that. I think just dedicating a whole post to him not just sprinkling it in with other comments made me think he might not be scum with mathcam.

Lastly (I hope), the weak association of not-scum-with Yosarian should not be there. It was actually Porochaz and on re-reading the post I noted it on, I no longer believe that.

Alright, my son is getting fussy. I will try to finish Bookitty, VIt, GC, Spyrex, and Porochaz later today. I probably won't do one on MBL and chamber because they are strong town reads for me. CDB is a weak town to null read for me based only on KK/Tigris so I may need to read more to develop that read more.

[Juls]

I can't argue against a poro lynch. Give me until Tuesday morning, if I am not completely caught up I should be enough to give my thoughts to sotty/undo in the night.

[Juls]

Porochaz

Possibly mafia with

: ABR (see ABR notes for why)

First, I want to remind everyone of this that STD said:

(At least) one of this set { petroleumjelly, Seol, Porochaz, Green Crayons }

That immediately makes me suspicious of GC, Bookitty, and Porochaz. I doubt that there are two buddies in this list however. Especially since he followed that with "you can throw LML in there too"

Other things to note...I didn't like his hop on the DGB wagon. At this point she was at four votes and Porochaz's vote was prefaced with "meh, it's obvious but let's go with it." He did this again later with the undo wagon. When he voted he basically said there's no way DGB can't be scum but I like this wagon so I am getting on it (leaving the door to go back to DGB).

That's pretty much all I have on Poro in my notes. My biggest problem with him is he is always behind (a problem that appears to be happening now as well) and when he does come in and says anything it's several pages behind and I think he is just being ignored. All-in-all I don't get a town-vibe from him. It surprised me when I looked back and saw that HE was the one that organized this thing. You would think he would have got caught up at some point. I know he had a death in the family (my sincere condolences) but that was months ago. Why is he still not caught up in a game he organized?

[Juls]

Bookitty/Seol

Possibly mafia with

: GreenCrayons

Probably not mafia with

: VitaminR (weak), Yosarian

The only notes I had on Seol was the thing I have already mentioned about STD saying there are scum in {pj, seol, poro, gc}. Also, I took note of the argument that CES made that Seol replacing out seems more in line with scum as she would have been excited to come back and play as town (would be invested) but as scum not as invested. I don't know Seol's meta but it was a reasonable argument to me.

Bookitty, however, has troubled me. The first thing I noted is that when she came into the game, she said LML was not scummy but then only a couple of hours later says he is high on her scumlist (or at least higher than SSK). Then even later that day he is null leaning scum. OK, I can probably let all that slide. A little inconsistent but it's ok. So then she started saying it's ok to lynch me. By the end of day one, I wasn't feeling good about the Bookitty slot (I have more notes on day one...will get to that in a second). Flash forward to day two. She says that she thought LML was crumbing role blocker. From that point I felt better about Bookitty. Things started making sense. Until I realized, that she had noted LML's crumb before she replaced in. Now I don't understand the chain of events and it feels like she used it as an excuse to not be on the LML wagon. The claim of VT and saying "go ahead and lynch me" bought her a lot of town cred. She may very well be town but I am viewing this with a very skeptical eye.

The few other notes from day one I have on Bookitty are her self deprecation. I have never played with Bookitty before so I don't know if this is normal for her or not. I also liked what pj noted here which was that Bookitty had referenced several times that she read pregame, she had read the thread again, reread the thread again but she hadn't posted anything of substance to that point. Then she did what I have called her behind the curtain posts. The first one I thought was good, it made me feel a little better about her but the second one just seemed to ramble and confused me. Later while reviewing my notes I realized that it was mostly game recap without any real analysis/conclusions drawn. There were a few but nothing that couldn't be summarized in a line or two.

The reason I have her as not scum with VitR was because post 499 where VitR asks chamber why he doesn't like Bookitty and basically agrees with everything she has said. It's weak though because it could be faked.

Also, if Bookitty were to flip scum I think this post will be a good one to revisit. She makes a lot of definitive statements about who is scum and who is town so we should look back here in that event. I look at it right now and it is not inline with some of my reads (such as listing Yosarian and mathcam as town) but to be fair, I have the benefit of 2 scum flips where she has none at this point.

One thing STD said did give me pause (that she might not be scum) though. In the post below, STD tried to stay on the Bookitty wagon instead of going back to LML. So they might not be buddies

If that were the only thing going for Bookitty, I'd stop voting for her, but again I'm not convinced that this absolves her of guilt and I'm not sure that she wouldn't do this as scum.

All in all, I would say I WANT to read Bookitty as town. She wouldn't be my first lynch choice but she certainly isn't obvtown. Also, I am not sure why I noted her as potential scum with GC but I am sure I will find it and explain when I do.

[Juls]

I think she is closer to town then scum but I still want to present all the evidence just in case the obvscums aren't scum.

[Juls]

It's harder for me to read present day because I lack context. But reading that did get me thinking. It is probably better to lynch between the two of them today than poro. Poro may very well be scum but I think we learn a lot more about interactions from those two slots. My preference would be Yosarian for the lynch because I can't find very much that I couldn't see coming from scum where I have found a few little things with mathcam. I think we are in a position to do an information lynch. I still owe write ups on Vit, GC, and Spyrex but this is my scum list from most to least. The --- lines indicate levels of scumminess (e.g., Poro, GC, and Spyrex could be rearranged but not be lower than ABR)

Yosarian
mathcam
---
Porochaz
Green Crayons
Spyrex
---
ABR
VitR
---
Bookitty
CDB
---
Chamber
MBL

[Juls]

Well they are most scummy to me. Poro would be a compromise for me. He very well may be scum but I like Yosarian for scum the most.

[Juls]

And why would we save an information lynch for end game? That doesn't make sense.

[Juls]

You know I'm not that far. Can you give me a list of posts where he town told and what the town tell is? I can try to take a look at them as I read to see if I agree.

[Juls]

Yosarian, i think you have played a good game and maybe if I had been here from the beginning I would feel different but I am voting you for interactions that I feel like scum buddies throughout the part of the game I have read. I believe you were likely bussing when it came to LML. I haven't got to the std lynch yet ( I replaced on late that day) but weren't you pushing DGB when I entered? So my apologies if I am wrong but I am only one vote and I trust that if the rest of the town thinks differently they won't sheep a person who is admittedly not caught up despite the fact that I am confirmed town. My goal in this game is to present my reads since it is highly likely I will be night killed as early as tonight but definitely within the next 3 nights. Town can do what they want beyond that.

[Juls]

I'm not going to complain about anything, the people who have played this game from the beginning know more about the situation than I do. Sheep Sotty and undo before you sheep me.

[Juls]

Well I said I should be able to give you my reads by today and anything else I can share with Sotty/undo in the night. I am not caught up. Getting my daughter ready for back to school has taken longer than I liked and I overjudged my ability to do anything productive with a 6 month old testing out his vocal chords beside me. I am about to finish writing up my reads and then I am going to read through as much as I can between now and the end of night. I had planned to finish up the reads posts this morning but the site was down.

[Juls]

Something needs to happen? Then provide me with those posts that you feel are Yos town-telling. Brow-beating everyone and being LOL-inconsistent is not "something happening". You might as well have a signature that says "Hi, I am ABR, lynch anybody but me...that's my meta" because all you have done this day and the portion of the game I have read is vote-hop.

[Juls]

(SpyreX--although not in game yet)farside/Natirasha/Zorblag/inhim

I don't have a lot on this slot cause apparently this role has cooties causing everyone to replace out. Since we already know that SpyreX has cooties there is no doubt he will stick it out to the end. <3

The first thing I have is the replace out by Nat. The reasoning seemed sincere enough but the comment that "reck's game was cool and I had a fun role, here I don't.". That feels like being uninterested but trying to give her replacement a chance.

Then Zorblag enters with his list of reads he made pregame. I completely skipped that post because WHY would I put any stock into anything he did pre-game? I did not want to view any part of his alignment with this post. Which reminds me of something I forgot to mention about Bookitty, I will do that next post.

Also, I want to remind everyone of two very good points from confirmed-town.

Zorblag keeping pressure on Porochaz after he started to post and give opinions on the game seems pretty harsh. The reason he got Zor's vote was his lack of content now he provides such content you're going to call his motivation into question? Damned if you do damned if you don't. If you don't like the content at least pull something out of it to argue, the whole you dismissing it was pretty funky and I even hate pbpa's.

My general impression is that Zorblag was significantly more interested in scumhunting before he got a role in the game than after, and that doesn't bode well for his alignment.

I noted these two in particular because they made a lot of sense on a slot I am not getting much out of.

[Juls]

@ABR- You started this day wanting to quick-lynch but not the person DGB wanted.

[Juls]

The thing I forgot to mention about Bookitty was this quote:

Okay, I completed my reread up to the point where LML posts his VCA. I have a huge list of notes that I can post if people want to see how I derived my viewpoints. It's HUGE though, and I won't be cleaning it up, but it's readable to me and I think it can be understood. I only focused on interactions with LML and about him, and only the ones that I thought were important.

See this seems dubious to me because she replaced in right after the LML VCA and I really think these notes were done pregame in an attempt to make her more townie. And nobody really asked her for her notes but she provided some anyway in 1390.

[Juls]

Well, I apologize. You asked me to replace into this game and I know I don't have the same amount of respect that a lot the player list does but I told myself that if I did replace in I wanted to give it my all. That's why it's taking me so long to read, I am seriously going through everything with a fine-tooth comb. I wish I was quicker about it but this game is a very big read and I have to do it in doses. I mean I get you all have been playing a long time but I just don't see what the rush is.

[Juls]

VitaminR

Possibly Mafia with

: Yosarian

Probably not Mafia with

: Bookitty

I have avoided doing VitR and GC because I go back and forth on both of them so I think the best way to present these are just the good and the bad.

The good

:
In post 188 STD defends VitR from attacks being levied by GC about going after easy targets. Essentially, STD is saying "well I said basically the same thing, why am I not scummy?" Not sure if this defense would come from a buddy.

In post 279 Vit accuses LML of voting for STD but ignoring his content. This is a very strange defense/bus if he were buddies with both. It's hard for me to see this coming from scum.

In post 432 he calls PJ "opportunistic" for hopping on the LML wagon. Again, why would he go out on such a limb for a scumbuddy?

LML returns the favor by white-knighting for Vit against PJ in post 451 admonishing PJ for asking him to provide a list of "weak players"

From a non-interaction/strictly game play point of view, I appreciated post 659 where he backs off of PJ. This is particularly strong considering PJ is a viable counterwagon to LML at this point.

The bad

:

He was the first vote on LML in a lynch that was obviously bussed. This was also followed by some unnatural early interactions with LML.

I have already mentioned the chain-bus I am feeling from Yos/VitR though admittedly that not be the case due to more present interactions. I will keep a closer eye on these two's interactions as I read.

The I don't know

:
These are a couple of interactions I felt were worth noting but I really don't know what to do with them.

In post 251, VitR posts a case by STD that makes him think STD is town.

In post 343 places a huge pile of WIFOM on my screen by saying

I think anyone who is looking to create a correlation between me and VitR is acting certainly scummy and may very well be trying to domino lynches.

This quote will haunt every read I have on Vit. Well played LML. I am treating it as NULL because I know it was meant for either 1)WIFOM or 2) for us to think of it as WIFOM. It's literally nested WIFOM.

I am also curious about this post where VitR says he is not sure if he has ever seen ABR look more town because he has avoided taking the "easy road". This was actually Yosarian's comment but he agreed with it.

@Yos and @Vit

- do you still feel this way?

I only owe you GC now. I will try to work on it but I have to take my daughter to soccer practice in a little over an hour but I will definitely have it up tonight. Then I will get back to reading. I will try to pick up the pace on that somewhat.

[Juls]

Well chamber is an overall feel. He has challenged people in the appropriate places, been annoyed at the appropriate places and at the appropriate levels. I know I felt a lot of his postings were town but I have been making more notes on who I thought was scummy as opposed to townie. He was the first that I moved to the town-read column. As I continue to read I will make a point to pick up more notes on town-tells too.

[Juls]

I agree to a lynch tonight but I would just ask you give me to this evening to get out my thoughts on GC.

[Juls]

MBL - What you say makes a lot of sense. I feel decent that Boo is town (even though there are a few things that I have seen that makes me squint my eyes). Like you say, poro's play has been uninspired so I don't know if that's just bored town or lurky scum. GC I have a bit more problems with.

We likely have 3 more scum. If we eliminate those, you think it is who 3 of {Spyrex, Yos, ABR, mathcam}?

[Juls]

I have a lot of paperwork to fill out for my daughter's first day of school. I'm just going to give you my raw notes on GC. Please feel free to ask any questions and I will explain better if something isn't clear. I apologize for not having links but most of them are STD/GC so maybe ISO them two together to get the point.

Green Crayons

Possibly mafia with: Bookitty, Yos
Not Mafia with: chamber (78-82), KK

STD 113 – Says one of {pj, seol, poro, gc} are scum and can “throw LML there too”. Interesting interaction.

STD 151 – benign response to GC

GC 179 – Poses comments to Tigris, LML, PJ, CTD, STD. I always feel like scum will intermingle interactions with their buddies in large posts addressing several things. In this post he addresses 2 known scum. The post in general isn’t very deep. He says he just re-read the thread with his thinking cap but offers only thorough analysis of VitR and some town/scum reads.

If we find out GC is scum this is a post I would like to go back and look at closer

STD 183 – benign question to GC

STD 188 – this post looks like he is white knighting for Vit against GC. This could be a very subtle interaction with GC for sake of interaction.

GC 291 – chides LML for not answering his question

LML 302 – banter with ABR, responds to Yos’s question about tigris, responds to GC, continues bus of STD

GC 303 – another benign question directed at LML

GC 307 – this post at least shows analysis of LML but I don’t know if it comes from a place of I-already-know or not.

Shanba 370 –“Green Crayons vs LML is supremely uninteresting. I have learnt nothing about either's alignment by reading the two of them retreading the same points over and over with added vigour each time, but perhaps that's just because my eyes kept glazing over.” She saw it, but she didn’t know she saw it!

LML 426 – Asks GC to comment on the last few pages.

GC 477 – this post feels so over-the-top defensive compared to what was asked/said.

GC 501 – GC seems to be tunneling hard on LML. Aside from rebuffing Zorblag, I haven’t seen any other scum hunting here.

GC 609 - I can see this post coming from a Bookitty buddy.

GC 630 – going at mathcam for still preferring a Bookitty lynch AND still supporting LML over her. I think this is probably town.

LML 653 – Could be a little hint to Yos (and maybe even GC) to stop bussing. Another reason to think MafiaSSK/mathcam is not scum. LML is really pushing the ‘slip’ from MafiaSSK about daytalk.

GC 788 - not scum with KK

GC 909 - hate the posturing of the STD read

GC 1069 – this read is heavily conf biased but I really hate the case GC is making on Glork here. Why does GC feel that Glork would stick his neck out so far for a scumbuddy? Also, where’s the vote?

GC 1070 – could be scum with Yos for blatant town read.

GC 1124 – likely not scum with Vit. (weak)

GC 1156 – I hate this awful awful push on Glork. And I am really turned off by the condescending nature of this post in particular.

[Juls]

I forgot VitR. I would probably exclude chamber or at least save him to last cause I really don't see him/you as scum.

[Juls]

By the way, one thing I noted and I haven't seen yet. Did anyone ever question/speculate why Shanba was the night 1 kill? I didn't necessarily see a crumb and I didn't think she was a particularly vocal player. It's probably all wifom anyway but I'm just curious if anyone even looked at it.

[Juls]

I think your comments on poro are accurate. Does anyone REALLY feel like poro is the BEST lynch today or is he just good enough?

[Juls]

I will vote him if he gets to L-1. I'm not going to try to stop it by any means. I'd just prefer Yos or mathcam.

[Juls]

Mbl, I seriously doubt the mafia have day talk considering the masons do not.

[Juls]

Well, we also have an onsite PT, not an offsite QT

[Juls]

Lol...I'm still pretty confident and just finished day 2 but if I am wrong I won't be the first person in this game that's been wrong.

So as of page 2 you can move Mbl and vitr higher on my scum list and probably move boo kitty and abr more toward town. Will post more notes later tonight if it's still day, if not Sotty/undo will get them.

[Juls]

Page 2= day 2

Also, move spyrex to a potential buddy of Mbl

[Juls]

Don't wait on me, I will be fine with a Yos, Poro, Vit, or Spyrex lynch right now (though admittedly I have read like 5 words from SpyreX and I feel like I can read him pretty well so that read is based on his predecessors). Maybe GC. I actually need to look back over some things I saw as inconsistent from GC on day two to see if I think it's a natural thing or a scummy thing.

[Juls]

Sorry I haven't kept as close of tabs on today as I have been slogging through the past but can you remind me why you were voting math over Vit since you seemed to be going at it pretty hard.


P-edit: Ugh, another "I will catch up post from Poro".

[Juls]

Ugh, but then 3988 is icky too

[Juls]

What's wrong with 3988?

It took him 6 minutes to go from "not the best lynch" to "confirm vote"

[Juls]

It's not scummy to change your mind. It's scummy to have a drastic change with weak evidence. How does what you posted not make sense so much so that you are suddenly certain of your poro vote?

[Juls]

Actually, Yos, if you end up flipping town, it will be great if you can give me the 3-person pairings that make sense as scum and those that do not make sense as scum.


1) Chamber
2) Porochaz
5) MrBuddyLee
13) mathcam (replacing MafiaSSK)
15) Albert B. Rampage
16) Green Crayons
17) SpyreX (replacing inHimshallibe who replaced Zorblag who replaced Natirasha, who replaced farside22)
18) VitaminR
21) Bookitty (replacing Seol)
22) ChannelDelibird (replacing OhGodMyLife who replaced Kublai Khan who replaced Tigris)

[Juls]

But why would hypo-mathcam-scum make a post that would clear me if porochaz flips town, right before a porochaz lynch? Doesn't make sense. That really increased the odds of porchaz being scum with mathcam (which would mean mathcam is trying to set me up), and it increased the odds of mathcam being town (in which case porochaz is pretty likely to be scum; there just aren't that many suspects left).

That only speaks to mathcam's alignment, not poro's. Explain to me how you read the latter based on comments by the former?

[Juls]

Bah! Good luck town! Enjoyed playing.

[Juls]

Juls, you are forever my hero in this game. Thank you for coming in and actually taking the time to read and post and become engaged. Helped me masses.

<3 sorry I didn't have better reads.

Sorry to Yosarian for suspecting you.

ABR, I didn't force anyone to vote Yos, and in fact said that you (collective) should defer to people that are caught up. Not sure why you feel the need to "blame" everyone but yourself for the loss. I'm not saying you're to blame but shitting on everyone else is pretty bad form and it only makes me lose what respect I had for you.

[Juls]

I said Yosarian was town. Juls was so sure of herself, she wouldn't even listen to me. Just wanted to do what she wanted to do without even listening to the players who were caught up, disrupting the entire thought flow that I had.

After DGB was lynched we should have just speedlynched CDB.

....this is blame. And it kinda hurt my feelings coming from you after you asked me to join the game in the first place. But I am not trying to be aggressive. I'm disappointed that you are so upset at everyone. Sorry if you took that as aggression. I just think everyone put a lot of effort into this game and invested a lot of time/energy. Everyone is upset (except scum).

[Juls]

What about time? What's the record?

[Juls]

A mod should release the PT

[Juls]

The only thing that kept bothering me about Bookitty was that she had admitted to reading along prior to joining and then was like "oh I have notes up through the LML lynch I can share". Like she really wanted to share them but wanted it to be cause the town asked for it. But then I just let it go. Catching up was such a massive task that I forgot why I thought someone was scummy or why I didn't.