New York 182 - Game Over

[Thor665]

Vote: Varsoon

I'm out of RVS now.

[Thor665]

@Choof.

Vote Varsoon, he's at L-6.

[Thor665]

Or...I guess you could avoid that wagon and keep doing that.

Why do you townread Varsoon? Or is it that you scumread Elusive, or scumread some people voting fro Varsoon (though then I would presume you'd vote them...?)

Your vote doesn't seem to make much sense.
Clarify?

@Sakura - good posting. Let's just random speed lynch Varsooon and see what happens.

[Thor665]

do you love me now, sakura?

6 is a good number, why would you ruin it
why are you doing this
why did you let it habben
ids habbending
y dozen u stob dis

Varsoon is at L-3, aren't you going to tell me why you townread him yet?

[Thor665]

can i get a doggy counterwagon going?

I would have joined you on choof until he actually replaced out.
Now the slot is just reading newb to me, and not scum.
Do you have a case on any of the other dogs? If not - I'm already on a bigger wagon, so why move?

[Thor665]

only 4 more votes to hammer

3 - even with the unvote,
Lrn 2 math.

Also okay with the idea of a Marquis wagon because...meh, why not?

[Thor665]

Literally the only person he was rude to was me.
Other people were rude to him.
As usual - I wasn't actually rude first, and no one will notice

Meh - not worth dinging at him over, that's weird.

[Thor665]

I wasn't even rude at all yet, I'm just a picture of an innocent soul.

Pedit: @Gork - depends who moved, we have a lot of people voting confirmed not scum at the moment. They should work on that.

[Thor665]

I don't care about anything you said Thor. I care about people being miserable to others with non game related crap and making playing this game unpleasant.

Whut?
Y'know, omething *I* noted about all the quotes you offered of people being rude.
That none of them were said by me.
Why in the universe am I catching this oddball annoyance flash and also getting you to bail on a rather functional wagon for no apparent reason other than to teach me a lesson about the rudeness...that...I was not involved in...at all...?

I knew I would somehow be blamed for this.
I don't know why that is, but all rudeness on the site is always my fault, somehow.
People bug me.

nah it was 4

Was the mod's VC wrong?

[Thor665]

Re-reading, as far as I can tell you weren't dinging him, you were dinging Gork.
I then *agreed* with you.
You then unvoted a wagon I supported because "screw my wagon"/
Meh.

Re-vote Varsoon now.

[Thor665]

It literally doesn't matter.

[Thor665]

That also literally doesn't matter - apologize via PMs.

[Thor665]

Hmmm no of he had experience he wouldnt be a newb would he?

He replaced out due to frustration and confusion about how the game was being played.
That is a Newbie regardless of experience - and even if you want to call it 'Experienced' it literally changes nothing.
The only way that matters is if you wish to claim that he is scum, and chose to *fake* the annoyance in order to hand his replacement some sort of leg up...even though I don't think anyone is calling the slot townish.
Is that why you're asking? Or is there some theory I'm missing here?

[Thor665]

we can discuss that after, but his avatar coupled with his playstyle suggest he shouldnt find such razzing as foreign as he did, imo.

Im not saying he is faking anything. Plenty of emotion from both sides is real. His replacement will simply be watched more.

By definition this means you *are* claiming his replace out was strategic.

[Thor665]

because he's scum
duh

What has he done that is scummier than Varsoon?
Use your words - because if you just want a random lynch wagon, Varsoon is already right there - so you need a reason for this different vote.

Yes. So people cant have real feels and channel them for a purpose?

They assuredly can - I just see no reason at all to see why he would do that as scum more than town - which is what you are claiming since you'll be watching his replacement "more".

[Thor665]

lynching marquis is always for the greater good of the world
there's no negatives
because i said so
etc

Describe the basis of the policy lynch in order to justify its consideration?
We're past the point of saying "because" unless you're just that bad at describing your reasoning...which is okay, tell me if it's so in order that I may add you to my "acceptable lynch" list.

Varsoon is town. His wagon reeks badly of a scum run up. He has not even posted and he is about to get lynched. Unless someone can give me a darn good reason to scum read him than I am going to presume he is town . I would be shocked if there was not atleast a few scum on that wagon

Who do you see as the scum who leapt on that wagon.
Also - regardless of expecting scum to have helped the speed of that wagon...why do you think Varsoon is town simply due to its existence?

so yeah tell me why we are running up Vasoon before he even posts.

Because he had the most votes at the point I showed up and started drumming for support, aided by Sakura - I thought that was fairly evident from reading the thread. No?

My wagon's as good a place as any to start, though. I'm town.

Were you...planning to...y'know...start?
Or was the expectation that the rest of us would take you at your word and do the work for you?

So for all of you, Choof was most likely town, he did not get what was going on with the flash train on Varsoon and Thor asking him why he was townreading a guy that hadn't posted yet, so he thought we were making a joke at his expense and mr. unpleasant here in the form Gorkinton confirmed it for him, plus I've seen his early town posting in a newbie and it's the same jokey/scummy but not really mix.

I actually guardedly buy into the idea that Choof was town.
I fail to see how your meta research remotely supports that conclusion though.
Clarify?

is varsoon scumsaucy outside the claim?
i dont see it.

Is he townish outside the claim?
I would submit his reaction to the wagon is arguably scummish - since he actually didn't scumhunt on the wagon which, when I'm town, would be the first thing I did to a speed wagon on me.
I'm leaving my vote on him for a reason.

Oh Thor in post #29, why do you ask Choof questions about his RVS vote on a player he knows from another game? Why? I would like to know you're reasoning behind that line of questioning that seems at best useless in the RVS stage especially towards a newbie. Do you usually choose what could be termed easy targets?

I honestly feel that my questions answer themselves - there was an available wagon on a player.
He intentionally avoided it.
I asked him questions to understand why he intentionally avoided it.
Make sense?

@Anti - I disagree with you that "Hated" is remotely on the same level of the example for changing the way voting works "Kingmaker". Do you honestly believe they are in the same level?

[Thor665]

hated is NOT whitelisted and has NEVER been used in any normal setup before

For me, this is really kinda the kicker on the Varsoon question.

I'm starting to almost get uneasy with the level of love I'm getting from Sakura - other people pointed out most of what I said about Varsoon and somehow I get the nod? Either she's skimming others, or hard buddying me.

[Thor665]

Or both, I suppose.

[Thor665]

but only me and anti to discredit us when we called him out on it

He called me cute.
But, aw, you can't deny that grass is green, I suppose.

[Thor665]

@Gork - I am aware of that. But the buddying to me was stranger since she snubbed Anti in order to buddy me - if it was general friendliness why not 'atta bot Anti?
The buddying to you and me prior to that was more "meh".
Though, I suppose if Varsoon flips scum I can just wait to see if there's a second team or SK possibility and write her off for a while regardless - but I wanted the thought out there.

@Sakura - you missed it hard.

[Thor665]

i mean... varsoon's response to the quickwagon isn't even really THAT great b/c "my wagon's as good a place to start" isn't followed up by... anything.

Gork then asked about that comment and Anti responded.
So you sorta missed three posts - or read 2 of them with no context.

[Thor665]

@Thor
The playstile he has used in his town games, grab attention and bait votes, is pretty dangerous as scum and he doesn't seem like the kind to try and mirror himself out of meta awareness, so the fact he was starting to behave in the same way here is what supports the townread.

This sounds really silly to me.

You're saying his playstyle was, functionally, dumb for scum to ever do because it was dangerous.
And surmise that he would not play that was as scum and have a totally different playstyle?

Please tell me I'm not grokking something here, because this sounds shallower than Kanye West's empathy for his fellow artists.

[Thor665]

So based on mod comments varsoon must be fake claiming? Therefor either scummy or scummy? Always weirded out when things seem.to.easy.

I'll remember that after any cop claims?
Weird.
Also, why aren't you weighing in on the back and forth between Copper and I as regards the playstyle of your bud as scum?

Thor, why would a player choose to jump on a flash wagon? Does not that signify sheep mentality and more suspicious are those that jump on such wagons.

There are many reasons someone may choose not to hop on a flashwagon - that is why I asked him for his reasons. I actually do not find either sheep or lone wolves particularly inherently scummy until alignment flips start happening, and care more about forcing people to make such stands so I can read the attitudes later.
Where I'm lost is why you're asking me "why would you want to know his reasons?"
That question literally sounds like it is based on the concept that *not* understanding motivation is a core component of scumhunting. Like...you're asking me *my* reasons, why then is it unusual to you that I'd ask him for his reasons?
Where is this line of questioning going?
Seriously?

Yeah, okay, fine,

I'm not hated.

I lied about it.

I panicked when I was being run up for lynch and wanted to do something that would maybe ensure that I'd get to live at least until close-to-lylo, so it was the first negative utility thing I thought of.
Ya caught me.
I'm not scum, though. I'm just a Smurfing idiot.

[snip]

Now that

that

embarrassment is out of the way, I want you guys to be really real with me;
you gonna lynch my ass now that I've come clean?
you gonna vote for me now that I've straight up told you the truth?
we gonna have another goddamn repeat of HipHop Mafia or Advance Wars, here?

Yes, I am going to vote you now that you've told the "truth".
For starters, I'd like to force a claim from you.
As secondary I do think you still look scummy.
As tertiary....yeah, weird reaction from you - it deserves some suspicion and probably your death.
I'm unfamiliar with your meta references - feel free to describe your habit of lying under pressure as town to me though, I am willing to listen.
Also, do you still hold the same town/scum opinions of those on your wagon? I remember you calling Anti scummy...apparently for *correctly* figuring out you were a liar...why did you do that?

You are ignoring one part of the argument, that I don't think he is the kind to mirror himself.

How do you divine this conclusion?

Why did you select one part of the answer to criticize? Are you impying the read is made up?

Yes, i am pretty sure that is what I'm implying which is why I'm asking you to defend the methods you used to create the answer.
Why...is that a problem for some reason?

[Thor665]

so, you're still willing to vote me on the basis of your fake hated claim and the fact that i actually have reviewed and designed setups and know what the Smurf i'm talking about.

explain that now.

Get out of my head Anti.
But, yeah, I agree - that is a bit of a screaming scumtell in my book too.

You realize that, now that you've admitted lying to the town, you literally have to be lynched. Any scenario where you lives in bad for town.

How does that make sense?
Town lie all the time.
The question is - was his lie scummy or not.

fact is that you could be using that metatell as scum to try and get sympathy.

True.
Do you know if he has before? Or if he's tried any "lie" gambits as scum - that would be quite telling.

You know what the easiest thing to do is? Just Smurfing cop me instead of wasting a lynch on me.

Why would we want to use an investigate on you as opposed to someone else?
I'd support a Vig targeting you - but no investigates.

[Thor665]

It's definitely wrong for starters, now I can decide if it's scum wrong or just wrong.

Proceed.

How do you divine this conclusion?

You're saying his playstyle was, functionally, dumb for scum to ever do because it was dangerous.
And surmise that he would not play that was as scum and have a totally different playstyle?

Do you see any trace of the mirror estimation in your summary? I thought not, so I don't need to divine anything.

Yes you do - you need to explain why you are able to puzzle out that he wouldn't play in that method as scum - which is what your townread of him is based upon.

Thinking I look scummy is literally the easiest play to make right now. Challenge yourself.

This is one of the most magical defenses I have ever seen.

[Thor665]

@Gorkinton
No empty threat mate, the way you are approaching the game with those cookie cutter scumreads, you are scum because you post a smile, clearly buddying up, you are scum because you answered the question, clearly overexplaining, you are scum because you scumread me back and I am an easy lynch because I was being mean, clearly scum looking for an easy lynch, without any kind of analysis or thought about what the actual content of the posts is and what other different (and I think well explained) motivations I had is useless and dangerous town to leave around or scum looking for superficially scummy BS, either way you are not going to help me win.

@Gork

Cooper sucks. Sure.
You suck worse for the misrep - I'm on his side on that point.

[Thor665]

META NONSENSE THAT YOU'LL CONVENIENTLY DISREGARD BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT BAD TOWN DOES AND GOOD SCUM GETS AWAY WITH:

Hip Hop Mafia, where I was a town-sided JOAT. I came into the game with a quick-hammer, fake-claimed a Dayvig, then got run up for it all. I actually constantly confuse Thor and RECKONER because maybe they have similar avatars or maybe they both have a real aggressive no-nonsense playstyle. RECKONER is a lot more cruel in his rhetoric, though.
Advance Wars Upick, where I was a town-sided PR and I messed up on d1 and full-claimed in my neighborhood and they all thought I was scum-slipping and thinking my neighborhood was a scumhood. Turns out that a lot of the people in my neighborhood were actual scum members and they pushed through my mislynch instead of forgiving the honest mistake.

Advance Wars feels like a bad example.
I accept Hip Hop as a potential example.

That said, a simple question;
Do you fakeclaim as scum when under pressure?

[Thor665]

Thor, who is my bud?

Choof.

[Thor665]

PS. Copper is town because he looked up choof's one complete game on here and saw that he was town and accurately described his meta. So copper reads town to me unless Many Extreme Things.

I mean, and you say this - so I thought you might have an opinion on Copper's take on how scum Choof would play.
It's sort of a discussion, y'know?

[Thor665]

i didnt know what the heck he was talking about in that post.
his own fault for not clarifying when i asked him to.

He wasn't saying what you implied he was saying - that's pretty obvious methinks.

[Thor665]

Thor was scum that game, but he made a pretty thorough argument for why he thinks speedily making people claim D1 with high-pressure turbo-wagons is good town play.

I would note that a large amount of scumhunting in this game is now based off reactions to the wagon on you.
Just, y'know, supporting my belief.

[Thor665]

How do you divine this conclusion?

You're saying his playstyle was, functionally, dumb for scum to ever do because it was dangerous.
And surmise that he would not play that was as scum and have a totally different playstyle?

Do you see any trace of the mirror estimation in your summary? I thought not, so I don't need to divine anything.

Yes you do - you need to explain why you are able to puzzle out that he wouldn't play in that method as scum - which is what your townread of him is based upon.

@Copper - if this is an intentional dodge, say so, and save me some time.

[Thor665]

My townread of him is based on his posting during the flash wagon, another part of the read you are now ignoring, and supported by what my meta read of him tells me of him as a player.

I'm ruddy questioning it *because* I don't understand it.
Repeating over and over that I "don't understand it" while true, hardly actually serves any purpose.

Let's go back to the original statement and stop derping around with the "mirror" thing that you ruddy included as your word of choice and then basically left me confused as to what you meant by it.

So for all of you, Choof was most likely town, he did not get what was going on with the flash train on Varsoon and Thor asking him why he was townreading a guy that hadn't posted yet, so he thought we were making a joke at his expense and mr. unpleasant here in the form Gorkinton confirmed it for him,

plus I've seen his early town posting in a newbie and it's the same jokey/scummy but not really mix

.

@Thor
The playstile he has used in his town games, grab attention and bait votes, is pretty dangerous as scum and he doesn't seem like the kind to try and mirror himself out of meta awareness, so the fact he was starting to behave in the same way here is what supports the townread.

By these two comments, what I get is that you believe the following;

1. That he has a risky town playstyle.
2. That he isn't good enough/sensible enough/risky enough to copy his town playstyle when playing as scum.
3. That he was town here, due to this.

I am asking you (and am now asking again) WHY THE HELL YOU BELIEVE #2.
If I have #2 wrong - feel free to clarify what you actually meant.
But I am pretty sure I grok your meaning that far, and also am pretty sure that this conclusion popped out of ruddy nowhere - prove me wrong.

I already know by powers of meta that Choof was most likely not scum. I already stated that Copper was right in his "read" of Choof which shows he did research and gives him +10 townie points. You on the other hand seem to be 1) not reading my statements closely and\or 2) having trouble comprehending the statements I already made regarding this entire situation. Try not jumping off the Cliff of Blah Blah Did Not Read Carefully and Is Therefore Wasting My Time.

I was simply asking what you felt about Copper figuring out Choof's scum play by reading one game of his wherein Choof was town.
I wouldn't be able to do that - why do you think Copper could and did?
Could you do the same for other people?

As for cop claims, that's jumping the gun a bit and also not related in any way since there are no cop claims on the table nor can they be at this stage in time? If there were a cop claim I would obviously view it quite differently?

Which was my point - but sure.

However, rather then question a new player who is obviously in RVS stage - as you chose to do - I would scum hunt the people joining the flashwagon or those who didn't seem to be RVSing. I like independent thought more then sheep thought.

All you're saying here is you would question sheepers over wolves, whilst stating awareness that I did the other one.
I am fine with independent thought - but, by dint of being independent, it obligates more assessment to understand it. Again, you're basicallly asking me why I was questioning someone's motives.
I repeat "I was scumhunting".
I am still not sure about the angle of approach here if your actual point was "people who ding at Newbies are scummier" if that was the point I already committed the theory scumtell - why not proceed from there. Regardless of my motives (real or faked) I did your scumtell - yeah?

So I'm questioning your mindset at that stage in the game where you chose to focus on a newbie player rather then some of the apparent heavyweights.

Which "heavyweights" did I avoid?

[Thor665]

That's exactly what I'm asking - how did you make the "judgement call"?

[Thor665]

Theoretically you spotted a call to make, and applied some sort of judgement to it - describe that process.

[Thor665]

"Rectally extracted" is an acceptable answer.

[Thor665]

I think that if Copper assumed that choof was a newbie with only one game he might make the conclusion that it would be difficult for him to change his meta drastically.

Well, Copper is now going with 'wild assumption' as his reason for said presumption. So I suppose you are theory right on that.
That said - you seemed to indicate awareness of Choof's playstyle - have you seen his scumgame? If so, do you agree with Copper's take on it?

"Heavyweights" - anyone not a newbie. Like anyone who flashwagoned Varsoon before he fake claimed a really stupid fake claim lol.

Heavyweights like Boonskies, Sakura, SilverWolf, and pisskop then?
Or Copper...who you seem to be aware that I'm digging at?
Heavyweights like that?
I think Anti is the only one on there relatively close to me in length of term here.
Does this call make sense to you? It doesn't make sense to me.

Hint: there's a reason why so many players made comments about me and my playstyle. As far as longevity and rep on site, I am probably heavier than a large percentage of the players in this game. Basically by definition I will be attacking players considered 'weaker' than me and it would actually be strange of me to try to avoid doing so and deleterious to the effectiveness of my town game.

I do not see why you seem focused on Choof and then by correlation Copper.

I don't think I am focused on Choof - I had one interaction with him, and then he replaced out before I had made, like, my fourth post of the game, am I missing something there?
I agree I am focused on Copper because I think his read about Choof reads as fake - but that's a long ways from being focused on Choof. Frankly, the only reason I'm still discussing the slot is because Copper is dodgy and you keep asking me about my thoughts as regards Choof.
Want to prove me wrong here?
You sound like you're reading a different game than I am playing. Why is that?

What do I now though, I only have one completed game on me.

Aw, snap, sorry, it's scummy of me to question you then.

Theoretically you spotted a call to make, and applied some sort of judgement to it - describe that process.

The process is the same for every read I make, I try to profile a player based on what he is showing, does he play to win or to have fun, is he calculating or impulsive, does he get lynched often, how good is his knowledge of theory... and then I decide if the mindset he is showing is more likely to be his town mindset or his scum mindset.

And you decided it based on the idea that he wouldn't play like his town mindset, correct?
What led to that conclusion?
Is it just "aggressiveness"? Was that it? You mentioned the aggressiveness earlier.

What should I know going in?

There was a flash wagon on Varsoon.
He claimed Hated.
Anti lead the charge in calling the claim bull-hooey.
Varsoon called him scum for it and voted him.
Varsoon then clarified that the claim *was* bull-hooey and he had lied.
After having it pointed out, he moved his vote off Anti and claimed him as a town read.
I called that scummy.
People wandered around and screamed at each other.

also varsoon is still

um

:/

"not being lynched."
Yes, I noticed.
Why don't you vote him - it would be good.

Doublevoter is verifiable, for one.
Hated/loved is meh. I really doubt he is actually hated

His claim is absolutely confirmable. Run him up to L-1.

I don't buy the b/s about how he magically "loses" the modifier in LyLo.

I agree.
You should vote him.

[Thor665]

@Thor
You are asking me to describe subconscious routines, how do I suspect if someone is lying to me? It's part of my daily life to asses people and try to figure them out so you develop a skill for it, in choof's case I don't see what he did in the other game and followed up with in this one as coming fron scum, let's say he is a ballsy jokester that will always bait votes on himself, do you think he would be as self conscious as he appeared to get when he thought the rest of us were joking at his expense? If he always plays like that he should be used to any kind of reaction from others, more that shows a kind of arrogance or strong belief in self worth that he can manipulate others at will, that kind of player is not liable to replace in a huff, more likely he would figure out the flash wagon's purpose to begin with, and if not would likely laugh along thinking to himself that the joke is going to be on us in the end, I saw none of that from him so that's why I believe he was town here and developed that particular playstile to try and be helpful in Rome.

So "gut" - yeah, that's what I expected. I was confused why you were citing meta when making that value call because it so obviously seemed like it was obligated to be a gut call, and I felt you were mentioning meta to add weight to it. Not really a fan.

Now as to whether your lie makes you scum or not... I haven't decided yet.

What is your debate point on the pros/cons there?

House's investment in there being a cop in the setup bothers me

That seems a pretty safe assumption though - there's almost assuredly at least a single investigative, and Cop or some close variation is highly likely.
I don't even get your issue here.

Thor, do you have any questions\comments you want clarifications on? The least you could do is have some entertaining bits in all of that.

Huh?

1. By heavyweights I meant people who have played several games on the site and so are more aware of its particulars. Length of time on here or hyped up reputations have no meaning to me. But yes, I kind of want to see you "hunt" more then one or two people just to see what the process is.
2. Copper, meh. I liked Copper due to his honest choof read. I will look at the game House linked to see how devious he can be although since he admitted to "white lies" I already surmised that.
3. You didn't focus on Choof but you're questioning of copper seemed to revolve around his read of choof to some degree.
4. You can question me all you like, why would that bother me? My comment was sarcastic.

1. Which then easily brings us back to "Thor didn't really "attack" Choof and also, if what Thor did to Choof was an attack - he has assuredly "attacked" multiple "heavyweights" so...what's your issue again? And, no, I'm not going to randomly hunt extra people - it's a Large.
2. Since when does 'agreed with a read' equate to 'an honest read'?
3. It assuredly does...but...that doesn't make it about Choof - it's about Copper, it is blatantly about Copper and his read.
4. Oh, I missed the funny. Sorry.

• It's a gambit that has no obvious upside for a a townie.

I would presume 'survival' as the upside.

I'm also trying to figure out why Varsoon would claim such a weird role as scum. What is the mindset behind it? Why not claim some vanilla type role?

I would presume "survival".

Choof is town.......Thors continueing push to read Choof is scum is bad.

I agree, that would be bad.
Good thing I'm not doing it in any way at all?
What game are you reading?

I however think that the flash wagon on Vasoon as bad. I think Vasoon prob did panic and fake claim. I am not ready to lynch Vasoon. I want to see how Vasoon keep reacting to the pressure. I think that if he is scum he will slip up again and confirm he is scum. I want to get a better read on him. It kinda seems Thor is trying to push what he sees as easy lynches instead of doing any hard scum hunting. This is disconcerning to me.

I am assuredly pushing Varsoon as a lynch.
Why do you think his claim and reactions (specifically as regards Anti) come from a town mindset?

[Thor665]

I voted flubber because of pressure on him due to thinking he's possibly scummy. I'm not voting varsoon BC I don't want day to end when not everyone has posted.

How close do you think Varsoon is to a sudden speed lynch exactly?

Are you ready to know what bothers me? What

really

chuffs me is that everyone is all "What's the scum motivation to that claim? Why would Varsoon scum do that?"
Already there's so many people so confbiased it hurts. No one's openly asking why Town!Varsoon would do it. They'd rather deride me (Otolia) or just flat-out scum read it instead of mulling it over.
Dead-thread will be frustrating. Basically, a scumread on me marks a failure to engage with the game properly. It allows players to cross their arms on a read no one but me is going to call them out for in a game where there's 20 other players.

As long as we're complaining about that...I *still* have that question out to you about scumreading and voting Anti for accurately spotting that you were lying.
Y'know, when I'm town and choose to lie - I don't actually translate people accurately spotting that as scummy.
Why do you?

Or you could ignore this and keep AtEing...while I am slowly building your wagon back up.
I suppose that's an option.
Stop ignoring me, I'm going to get you lynched if you do. It is thus far proving quite easy.

@Thor
In that sense any tell is gut, you have to interpret what you read so your thought process influences it, I claimed I made that townread with the help of reading his meta, which is what I did, if you want to claim there is another way to use meta that relies less on gut and more on direct comparison of scum vs town meta I agree but that is not what I said, that's you projecting what you think meta cases should be on how I used meta.

Actually it's projecting what most people think meta cases are.
Functionally what you said was "I read Choof...I think he's town" except that you then added a lot of bells and whistles to make the read look more concrete.
Except you can't even explain how you got the read.
Meaning it is the opposite of concrete.
Making me suspect of you for adding the bells and whistles.

i backed out because of the arrow between the 3rd and 4th links. i've played w/ scum varsoon and town varsoon before and lying about being hated is something i could conceivably see him doing as town and actually admitting to lying is something that i really don't see him doing as scum. i wouldn't put it COMPLETELY beyond the pale, but there's reasonable doubts now.

How do you rationalize his attack on you?

ThorVCopper is interesting.
Thor's potshot at me was also interesting and reminded me a lot of Thor's scumgame. Of trying to make a big deal out of small details in a very logical way to create fake scumreads on people. I haven't played with townThor so I don't know if he's just very similar when he plays as scum so I'd be curious as to whether anyone else can shed some light on whether his towngame is equally nitpicky with little details.

Pick a town game.
Read it?

Heck, "ctrl+f" for "nit "pick" and "pedant" in the isos of other players in a town game with me.

Do you think Varsoon/Otolia together makes any kind of sense Sakura?
Because I don't.

I don't either.
Do you think that clears either of them at this stage?
Because I don't.

Which would you rather flip and why?
I'm choosing the proven untrustworthy one.

[Thor665]

by the way, i think copper's slot is more likely to be scum than not

How come?

I'll do this, I'll pick a player to read each day and answer questions others ask me, that's about the best I can do until some other shorter game finishes.

Yes, because reading a single player at a time is a way to get a feel for their actions within the scope of the game.

[Thor665]

To reiterate, I voted Anti for the -way- he pushed in on me. Marquis also pointed out that I was lying, but Anti had such awkward movement on Silverdog and then back to me while bringing a whole lot of LYING MUST EQUAL SCUM and being very loud and obstinate about it. It was the rhetoric of the push rather than the fact he was right to call me out.

I didn't notice anything that came across as rhetoric from him.
I did notice focused awareness that you had lied and him calling you scum for it.
And, yeah, I think that's a pretty valid standpoint to have - LaL is a bit close minded, but it assuredly comes from a functional core concept that liars are, more often than not, scum.
Your lie had questionable town purpose to it.
It had functional scum purpose to it.
So...
Can you showcase the rhetoric?

I sure can't wait to be lynched and every town throws their hands up and instead of learning from it they all just go "WELL VARSOON WAS DUMB ONE NOT ME HUURRRR" and they lose the game because they're too bad to filter right. Like, it's okay if I suck or if I'm bad, but you all shouldn't be bad because of it.

Oh, right, because if you're town it's *other* people who played poorly?

Eh, yeah, maybe people voting you should have "looked deeper" but...um, you lying is what gave the wagon on you such teeth in the first place, so...that part is pretty squarely and solely upon you - and I'm amazed that you seem shocked that it would leave people with a scummy concept of you afterwards. It's certainly not like you've been a dynamo of pro-town *after* the lie. You've just been sitting around and complaining, really - you're not scumhunting anywhere. You're just there...needing rope.

HUURRRR!

I agree with Varsoon, I think he is pushing on the players he thinks he can get away with.

Varsoon thinks Anti is town - what are you talking about?

[Thor665]

Nah man, I'm not bending to your will, Thor.
I'm saying that a lynch on me is -easy- and takes no -effort- and that worthwhile town are capable of discerning that I'm not scum and scum get a free pass in being all "but you lied, you suck, lynch you, we so good, its ur fault varsoon, we good, we play good, u just bad. Not our fault!"

I've done plenty of scum-hunting and I've been active. Saying otherwise is a lie. :/
Sorry if you can't perceive it as such, man.

It's amazing how much you're talking to me like you know I'm town while I'm doing *exactly* what you describe as what scum are doing.

[Thor665]

I skipped pages 35-41.
So if anything epic happened there - clue me in.

I saw Varsoon's "confirmed tomorrow" thing.
I am still voting Varsoon.

[Thor665]

Did I say that Varsoon was a scumread? Oh dear me, I must have forgotten! Could you please refresh my memory by quoting the post where I said that?

VOTE: flames

voting for a non-scum read

How is that scummy? Can you explain it for us?

[Thor665]

Dunno - who is voting you?

[Thor665]

Vote: Antihero

[Thor665]

So now that my case is minted in win - I expect sheep.

[Thor665]

While I approve of the end result, Im confused as to how we got there. Why do you vote anti?

Felt like Varsoon/Anti had a town/scum vibe to it.

@thor i=
lets you and i have a real scum talk

Shouldn't we only do that in the QT?

what do you think of oka z sakura

something about it soundsfishy to me
sakura spent like 20 posts in a row
talking about one player only

It doesn't feel like a scum/scum conversation to me, especially with the dig at the end...from both of them.

[Thor665]

I don't understand the case on Otolia.
And Sakura forgot to buddy Anti in favor of buddying me, remember?

[Thor665]

Best glaring example?

[Thor665]

Best glaring example?

Of Otolia - missed the page.

Was it Anti? I thought it was me.

[Thor665]

buddy

SAKURA i am not getting the same buddying experience from you that thor is apparently getting please fix this

Pretty sure I was the one pointing it out - no?

[Thor665]

@Gork - I am aware of that. But the buddying to me was stranger since she snubbed Anti in order to buddy me - if it was general friendliness why not 'atta bot Anti?
The buddying to you and me prior to that was more "meh".
Though, I suppose if Varsoon flips scum I can just wait to see if there's a second team or SK possibility and write her off for a while regardless - but I wanted the thought out there.

@Sakura - you missed it hard.

And certainly expanded on it far more than Anti, who was keeping it cute. I assuredly clarified that I saw it as an issue first.
Also appeared to call it out first, as far as I can tell.

[Thor665]

Like, Sakura doesn't seem like the kind of person to fakescumread someone just for playing badly. I think she'd be trying to push scum-motivations behind his actions moreso instead of just being like "he's bad get him".

So you're arguing that they're not scumbuddies?
Okay.
I could buy that.

[Thor665]

Sakura was hunting from his wagon. I dont think theyre onthe same team

Why would that be suggested by her hunting on his wagon?

[Thor665]

So do you think Sakura
Busses somebkdy
Or only town

This question is very badly written, and seems to come slightly out of left field regardless.
I'll go with "maybe" and "probably not - though I don't see how that applies to me answer" as my answers to what I think you're asking.

[Thor665]

Post 320 was actually mostly a joke

I am aware of that, I even said as much.

[Thor665]

Sakura was hunting from his wagon. I dont think theyre onthe same team

Why would that be suggested by her hunting on his wagon?

Too obvious, Sakura too good, Anti got too volitile, and too much towncreds to be won by defending him fromb ig bad ol' pkop.

I totally fail to follow what you're saying there.
Rephrase?

Thor, still got my eye on you. What have you done this game that is town side in some pro way?

I made the case you're blind sheeping while calling me scum?

He made a terribly bad case against choof

I did?
Quote it.
Liar.

[Thor665]

i don't see the antihero case.

but otolia is an ez lynch

Anti case is here;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p6691481

I agree that the Otolia lynch is an "ez" one.

Thor, still got my eye on you. What have you done this game that is town side in some pro way?

I made the case you're blind sheeping while calling me scum?

He made a terribly bad case against choof

I did?
Quote it.
Liar.

^^^
@Elusive.

[Thor665]

I don't understand the case on Otolia.
And Sakura forgot to buddy Anti in favor of buddying me, remember?

wow much strong case 10/10.

Why is the case weak?

Thor, much of your conversation particularly with me revolves around choof.
[snip]
So maybe instead of calling me a liar, get your facts straight cupcake.

I agree, you asked me why I asked Choof some questions and we had a *lengthy* conversation about Choof.
That said - you claimed I made a bad case on Choof.

Quote the case?
Liar.

Hell, quote me offering my opinion on the alignment of the slot, even without a case?
Liar, liar, pants on fire and knows it and is desperate dodging.

Also why is Thor not a bad lynch choice?

Because flipped scum hard buddied me?
Duh.

[Thor665]

I would have joined you on choof until he actually replaced out.
Now the slot is just reading newb to me, and not scum.

@Elusive - this is the most I have on the "case" on Choof.
I don't think any other "Case" exists.
Want to explain how bad and terrible this "case" is?
So bad that you called it out?

Liar.

[Thor665]

Why aren't you voting me, then?

Because I'm voting Anti - who I am also calling scum.
What sort of question is this? It would make sense if I wasn't voting anyone, or if I'd naked sheeped, or if I hadn't indicated belief in my current vote - but none of those things are happening.
Making this an empty noise response.
What is your point?
Why do you think I should scumread you over Anti?

By case I meant that most of your discussion revolved around choof

or copper because of his comments on choof. So it seemed like you were using choof as some sort of way to figure out scum or something whether in me or copper.

Show any evidence that supports this belief?
Any at all?
Also;

@Bold -

Therefore, where is your vote and what did all that questioning about choof lead you to?

Again, an empty question.
Followed by a question that you asked me before...or don't you recall the point of our long conversation about Choof? You literally have asked me this multiple times and my stated answer has never changed.
I asked him about Choof because I thought his meta was bullhooey.
Later, Copper flat out admitted that I was correct in this thought.
I then indicated to him that I found that sketchy and moved on from the conversation.
It never had anything to do with Choof, it had everything to do with Copper.
I got a scum lean read on Copper from it, but have found no additional scum looking actions at this point.

[Thor665]

Also, I am pretty sure that last post is admission of lying on your part.

Unless you meant "by talking to Copper and Elusive about Choof you are terrible"
Which makes even less sense than the lie of "your Choof case is terrible".

[Thor665]

I assume that people who are asking questions to the degree that you did come to some sort of case or thoughts on the fruit of their labors? Where is it?

There.

@Thor
In that sense any tell is gut, you have to interpret what you read so your thought process influences it, I claimed I made that townread with the help of reading his meta, which is what I did, if you want to claim there is another way to use meta that relies less on gut and more on direct comparison of scum vs town meta I agree but that is not what I said, that's you projecting what you think meta cases should be on how I used meta.

Actually it's projecting what most people think meta cases are.
Functionally what you said was "I read Choof...I think he's town" except that you then added a lot of bells and whistles to make the read look more concrete.
Except you can't even explain how you got the read.
Meaning it is the opposite of concrete.
Making me suspect of you for adding the bells and whistles.

[Thor665]

Lying is such an uncouth word, Thord. So uncouth.

I'm not sure what you're asking me?

I think we have a difference in interpretation?

Depends - do we agree that this is another dodge?

Or I think copper made a genuine case about choof and I don't get your case on him?

I get that you believe that.
Do you get that Copper agreed with me that he sort of just...created his read?
I mean, sure, like him, you can debate whether it is actually scummy or not - but the issue I had with his case he agrees that he did (agrees, albeit, after extensive questioning to get him to admit it, natch).

And, yeah, you are a filthy, scummy, liar.

[Thor665]

Try what?
I flat out caught Elusive lying to the point where "case on Choof" means "way you talked about Choof a lot when I asked you about Choof and when Copper was dodging answering your question so you had to ask it a few times"

Is that normal town Elusive lying? I could buy that if you can back it up.

[Thor665]

shes not lying though? she gave you direct quotes iirc but you just seem to not be accepting it.

No - that's not what happened.
She gave quotes where I used the name "Choof" in the post.
She *failed* to show my case on Choof.
She also *failed* to show that it was "Terrible" (which she had earlier claimed)
She then said that when she had said "case" she meant "talking about Choof - even though it had nothing to do with my opinion on Choof's alignment"
Meaning that, either, she was lying, or that she honestly thinks that's what qualifies as a "case" and *also* that me talking about Choof with anyone (including her, when she *asked* me to talk about Choof) qualifies as "terrible".

Do you think that's all legit?

[Thor665]

as for backign it up i have played games with her offsite long enough to where if she was scum it would be shown by a mile

And this does beg for clarity and links.
I'd be happy to clear her and ignore her terribad pushes and weird definitions for the rest of the game if she's indeed town.

I'd also be happy if you actually read things and didn't gloss over where she, basically, flat out admitted that she was lying and/or that she has werid definitions - instead of acting like I'm the one missing something when you leap in to defend her - I will admit that makes me leery of your ability to read her...because you're apparently not reading her.

Still - case? (and I mean "case" as in 'reason to think someone is town or scum' - not some other variation of that word)

[Thor665]

I find it suspicious that elusive and Thor are essentially tunneling each other but aren't even voting each other, instead they are voting the same DAMN person!

Yeah, who could ever think to point that out?

Thor, still got my eye on you. What have you done this game that is town side in some pro way?

I made the case you're blind sheeping while calling me scum?

[Thor665]

Oka makes an interesting point and I dont like how Thor just blew it off without answering why or defending where his vote is. This is dodging plain and simple and makes me suspicious
I like Memo case on Not..... I could lynch Not or Thor today.

...uh, how did I not answer it, exactly?

Oka's point is interesting - so interesting *I already had brought it up* and, also, the scumminess in the equation comes 100% from Elusive's side. Literally the only thing I did that is remotely questionable is keep my vote on Anti while *also* (continuing) calling Elusive scummy.

So the only way that is questionable is if there are multiple scum teams and Elusive and I are both scum and on different teams - because other than that Oka's point actually doesn't make any sense.

How/why do you think it does?
I know ZZZX isn't reading, I kind of thought you were.

[Thor665]

Oka's point actually doesn't make any sense.

Unless your theory is that we're distancing and I decided to bring it up *LONG* before anyone else...as...additional smokescreen...or something?

[Thor665]

Thor why not otolia/mnemoic device?

You have asked me that before.
I answered with 'I don't understand the case for Otolia scum'.
My answer has not changed.

I was arguing that it felt like Sakura might have been annoyed at Otolia playing badly as her scummate and that may have been seeping in to her push on him.

I do not really see that energy there, and it feels like an incredibly archaic hook to hang a case on regardless.
Do you have good accuracy making cases based on that sort of stuff?

Not sure how this is answering the accusation .... This feel like just dismissing the point all together.

Yes...dismissing it does qualify as "answering it" when the accusation itself is kind of a joke.

Can you clarify the "question" of the accusation that you think I need to address?
Or why it makes sense to you?
Or...y'know...anything to justify why I can't dismiss it based on the evidence of me flat out calling out my "scumbuddy" on sloppy distancing and sheeping of me and calling him scummy for doing it - thereby kind of defeating the point of the maneuver and shooting my team in the foot in the process?

Thor..... So why are you and Elusive on the same vote seeing that you two are tunneling each other

Frankly I expect there to be multiple scum teams, so him voting Anti, even if I thought it was an act of distancing (which you seem to fiully expect and understand scum can do) would not translate it as proof that Anti is not scum regardless.

Why, how do you think I should have reacted? Immediately unvote my top scum read to vote my second one because he was voted by the second one?
How does that make sense?

there's literally 2 pages between those

you can't legitimately have a townread on someone and 2 pages later suddenly think "no read, not enough posts"

I mildly like this case, though find the defense reasonable and thus not particularly sheepable.

What's your take on my Anti+Sakura case?

[Thor665]

Thor why not otolia/mnemoic device?

You have asked me that before.
I answered with 'I don't understand the case for Otolia scum'.
My answer has not changed.

I was arguing that it felt like Sakura might have been annoyed at Otolia playing badly as her scummate and that may have been seeping in to her push on him.

I do not really see that energy there, and it feels like an incredibly archaic hook to hang a case on regardless.
Do you have good accuracy making cases based on that sort of stuff?

Not sure how this is answering the accusation .... This feel like just dismissing the point all together.

Yes...dismissing it does qualify as "answering it" when the accusation itself is kind of a joke.

Can you clarify the "question" of the accusation that you think I need to address?
Or why it makes sense to you?
Or...y'know...anything to justify why I can't dismiss it based on the evidence of me flat out calling out my "scumbuddy" on sloppy distancing and sheeping of me and calling him scummy for doing it - thereby kind of defeating the point of the maneuver and shooting my team in the foot in the process?

Thor..... So why are you and Elusive on the same vote seeing that you two are tunneling each other

Frankly I expect there to be multiple scum teams, so him voting Anti, even if I thought it was an act of distancing (which you seem to fiully expect and understand scum can do) would not translate it as proof that Anti is not scum regardless.

Why, how do you think I should have reacted? Immediately unvote my top scum read to vote my second one because he was voted by the second one?
How does that make sense?

there's literally 2 pages between those

you can't legitimately have a townread on someone and 2 pages later suddenly think "no read, not enough posts"

I mildly like this case, though find the defense reasonable and thus not particularly sheepable.

What's your take on my Anti+Sakura case?

[Thor665]

Also, Thor what is your take on NEMNOMC

I mildly like this case, though find the defense reasonable and thus not particularly sheepable.

[Thor665]

Also, Thor what is your take on NEMNOMC

I mildly like this case, though find the defense reasonable and thus not particularly sheepable.

You have no response to what marquis pointed out?

You are literally reading my response to what Marquis pointed out.

elusive, calm down for a moment.

stop getting all riled and do the simple question game agian with people and talk to me about who you think is scum right now

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6697100
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6697112

???

[Thor665]

I am ok with your answers.... Not sure if your are town or not but I feel no need to pressure you anymore

You need to work on pressure - if that's what that was.
Also, regardless of you having your answers, your support of that push is so iffy to me that, yes, I still want you to answer my questions about it - because now I need to figure out if you were town doing a weird pressure test, or scum trying to heave on a bad push without realizing it was a bad push before hopping on.
So...answer my questions, please.
And, if your instinct here is to ask me to go back and quote them for you and waste 24 hours by doing so...dear gawd, just go iso me and pull them up.

Fuzzy is playing so awkwardly that it makes my head spin trying to imagine him as town or mafia.

I currently still lean townish on the slot, myself, but will agree it's a muddy read due to the...well, the specific pushes. But the slot feels more or less quite open about the pushes, which generally feels more newb town than newb scum in my opinion.

@thor im not going to get into smatic battles. so im going to cut it altogether and ask you one simple question: do you think shes scum even though she is voting with you? simple yes or no.

I have explicitly already stated him as my second strongest scum read...I would have sort of thought that would clarify "yes" as my stance. I suppose not, so I'll answer that question now.

"Yes"

Also, FETH NO YOU DON'T GET TO DODGE.
Please go back and answer my questions - they are *not* semantic based, I am offended that you are trying to pass them off as such, and also VERY much want you to answer them about a player you are choosing to leap in and defend.
Either show that they are "semantic based" (they are not - so call me a liar and prove me wrong or answer them) or answer them. They are alignment and opinion based - and are asking for your thoughts, not definitions. So don't play this derpy game with me, I'm calling the slot out for lying and you are defending it even after the slot has, more or less, admitted that I am right - so defend your stance please.

as for her offsite games thats entirely her if she wants to bring them or not she has told em before that she rather not bring up her past for [reasons here]

Dodge, dip, dive, duck, and dodge.

Okay, we can play this derp game.

@ELUSIVE - ika is defending you based off meta that he now refuses to disclose because, apparently, it would bother you to have your meta disclosed.
What are your thoughts on this?
Would you be okay with him presenting his reasoning for defending you?
How do you feel about his defense of you thus far since you are not choosing to comment upon it?

Still working on Sakura's ISO, I need more meta about her to see if she is more likely to buss, ignore or townread her buddies to make proper deductions, luckily some of my other games are winding down so I should be able to give this the proper attention becore team mafia.

How much "more" do you need?
Previously you showed a willingness and ability to draw conclusions from limited info - why has that changed in this instance?

How can you like his case when you said at the beginning of that same post that you don't understand the otalia case?

Because that answer was to Oka, who had been pushing Otolia previously to Marquis making that case and was, therefore, obviously not using that as his case on Otolia, meaning I did not understand it.

I feel like you're attacking me, without reading me - what are your thoughts on that?

[Thor665]

Probably not reading either. Oh well.

Replace out?

[Thor665]

I mean, especially when your "questions" are answered by...reading the post you're asking "questions" about.

[Thor665]

I could get behind 2 of the 3 there.

@pisskop - what's your case on Mnemonic?

[Thor665]

It turns out that Large normals are hard to follow and I could follow 2-3 minis easier than 1 large as town.

Could you follow a Large easier as scum?
Why?

her thor, if you cant get elusives gender right im not just going to blaitently ignore you

I think the double nnegative messed with you, but I think i basically get your meaning.

I am still calling you out as a blatant dodger though. Because this is dodge-tastic.
"Oooooh, you got a gender wrong...can't possibly defend my thoughts now, because....GOSH!"

[Thor665]

You're the guy complaining about my arguments being "semantic based" while also refusing to have a conversation describing your thoughts because I used "he" instead of "she" and wish to present it as some sort of moral high ground in the game of Mafia?

Seriously?

[Thor665]

Like, my initial question that you are dodging was "how is it not a lie and why do you believe this?"

That isn't semantics and it ASSUREDLY isn't a "stooping" question.

What is this?

[Thor665]

It's also not "petty".
It's "why do you disagree that this is a lie?"
That's like, Mafia 101.

[Thor665]

I think we have a difference in interpretation?

Or I think copper made a genuine case about choof and I don't get your case on him?

^like these 2 things right here really just kinda give you the entire anser your looking for and that she isnt lying.

Neither of those two things are what I'm calling her a liar about?

I stated my case and reason for belief in the lie here when you first claimed it wasn't a lie;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6697100

[Thor665]

Does your meta on her include her alternate definition of the word "case"?

[Thor665]

So you agree with the concept that me talking about someone, when I am asked about someone, can be scummy?

[Thor665]

Or, at least, in her head, that it could be scummy?

[Thor665]

Do you not fake that as scum - knowing that you do it as town?

[Thor665]

Thats effort yo.

So...you don't fake paranoia as scum then?

Probably not reading either. Oh well.

Replace out?

But I'm enjoying myself

I don't care. You aren't playing the game and thus making it not fun for anyone else.

Thor- exactly what do you want me to answer????

So...answer my questions, please.
And, if your instinct here is to ask me to go back and quote them for you and waste 24 hours by doing so...dear gawd, just go iso me and pull them up.

This is the basic core reason that Thor starts saying that people play badly and suck.
Then people complain that Thor is mean.

@Fuzzy - your play is dreadful, and you should feel bad.

Here;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p6697958

Replace out, you useless sack?

@Ika - okay. Though I fail to see how it is a debacle. Like...at all.

[Thor665]

So...you don't fake paranoia as scum then?

Im better at controlling my paranoia as town now.

So you're saying you're not particularly paranoid as town then?

Is there a purpose to this?

Yes - I was curious to hear your thoughts on your scum v. town game in the context of a Large because we're both playing a Large and it would behoove me to be able to spot inconsistencies in your play to help me surmise whether you are scum or town in alignment in this game.
Was that not clear?

So I am trying to figure out what link Sakura and FF have with other player instead of trying to guess who is scu by some innane comment someone makes and i am a bad player who should replace out. This is just horrible
If you think you can bully or intimidate me than you have something else coming. If you want to get rid of me than you will have to mislynch me or night kill me.

Oh and the poor me I am not a bully is just sad and unneeded/

So am I to understand that you do not intend to answer my questions, and also that me demanding that you do and accurately predicting a failing in your gameplay quality translates to me being mean and therefore scum?

It is a fact that that Sakura either pretty much ignore her buddies or soft defends them by her meta. Tell me why we should just ignore two confscum flip

Well, she didn't ignore me, and she didn't soft defend me - she buddied and hard defended me.
And I never said you should ignore scum flips.

[Thor665]

FWIW I think fuzzy is town out of this.

Why did this newb flail trigger that thought while previous ones did not?

[Thor665]

unvote thor

so yeah yelling at Thor and his nonsense made me feel better but is not helping the town.


Thinking if we lynch Vasoon he will flip SK.

Are you dodging my questions still?

@Gork - his attack was quite shallow, and has now been confirmed as such. Eh - your value call there feels very preemptive even if you do take a headlong attack as a scumtell. Also, frankly, his attack had a built in dodge to it, so it was headlong in a somewhat sideways way to begin with. He's continuing with what he has been doing, which is being somewhat open, while flailing around with very unclear and shallow attacks. I find part of it townish, and part nullish to scum to newb. I am frustrated by a lot of the shallowness in the thread recently, frankly. And I openly admit to skimming and skipping posts in a Large, and so anyone getting *less* than me is really iffy in my book.

[Thor665]

I keep wanting to call fuzzy new and then I look at his join date and it makes me scratch my head :s

A quick look at his threads list will clarify that thought, methinks.
He is a very inconsistent player, with multiple month long gaps in his time.
Of course, I will admit, that I think Newbie is more of a state of mind than a state of length or games - so maybe my standard is different than yours. But a shallow meta dive should help clarify your thoughts for yourself one way or the other.

[Thor665]

@Gork - what is your take on the Elusive/ika thing.

I find the lie clear and the defense strange.

No one else is weighing in though, except for that odd attack on me based off Elusive scummily sheeping me - with no attack on Elsuive.
Which is sketchy as all get out in my opinion, but I will accept that I am in the middle o fit. I would like your thoughts on that.

@Marquis - as long as you're going to come back and answer a question from "someone" (which might be me and my question to you about Anti - why don't you also field the Thor v. Elusive+ika scrum.

[Thor665]

@Droog - actually, you should answer the Thor/Elusive/Ika thing too.
And also offer your thoughts on my Anti case.

I have found your posts okay - but you are assuredly sidelining yourself. Get in the mud and play.

[Thor665]

If I'm totally honest, I just don't know if I can separate elusive's general playstyle from her literally changing the definition of the word 'case'. It certainly seems like the sort of thing at first glance that comes across as scum backtracking, but I'm not entirely sure if she's just being elusive or not if that makes sense?

For me the big issue is the parsing.

Like, let's say that she meant "case" *exactly* as stated. That "case" involves me talking about Choof, and that it was terrible.
She literally cited examples of this as me answering questions she asked me about Choof.
Meaning that, in her mind, it was scummy that I talked about Choof when asked (by her) about Choof.

I have a real hard time swallowing that one in the context of a 'she a little silly in her definitions' defense.
Thoughts?

Ika's defense of her reads genuine to me, despite the melodrama attached to it.

I would feel better about his defense if, when on one of the multiple points I noted he was not actually reading or being aware of te issue he...had...y'know, sorta...chilled?
And not got weird and defensive about it.
I will admit, on the surface (and initially) I read it the way you are.
But I am having issues parsing through him right now.

I will agree it seems unlikely that both are scum (or, at least not aligned, natch) because that just seems too incredibly bad on top of the cake of bad already set in front of me. I'm just not sure which seems more iffy at this stage. Because both are trying to sell me the bill of sale on the alternate definition somehow making sense in the context that she used it in - and though I can accept one insane person - two strikes me as likely containing scum, yeah?

@Fuzzy - I am pushing the Anti wagon far more than you, and even if you want to argue otherwise, I am pushing it, it is clear I am pushing it, and my problems in getting it to advance are blatantly the lurk and people not actually addressing the case when I directly ask them about the case. Me having multiple scumspects and pushing multiple things is true, and I agree with you that I am doing that - I am a multi-tasker, I can hold multiple scumspects and investigations at the same time. I fail to see any issue with that, and indeed consider it proper and good town play, since the alternative is "tunnel" which, while I agree tunneling has valu, is not a mental state to want to be in too much.

[Thor665]

@Fuzzy - also, if I'm not pushing the case, and you are. Why do you think Gork cited me when moving her vote to Anti?

Hint: I am the one pushing Anti here.

[Thor665]

Oh, and who did Anti vote after that person voted Anti?

Me again?

Anti also seems aware that I am the threat and the push.

[Thor665]

but I have never seen thor not hunting with extreme logical edge as town.

What are your thoughts on my two primary cases currently?

[Thor665]

her playstlye has almost no real "logic" to it and that she goes a lot on guts and what jsut feels right to her. She has had games where she can just call out a scum team out of no reason other then "they feel scummy". much like me where i just dont give craps about cases (really you can do bullet points if you need a case) but she also has the weakness of jsut going tunnle mode on people who suspect her and get as i would say "destracted by the shiny object" the thing with her is that she very reactionary and that any poke in her direction will cause an ooutburst untill you know how to porperly adress it that doesnt come out as threatening

So...basically you are now agreeing with me that her commentary looks like a lie, but that it's forgivable because her use of logic within the game is...thin and more based on gut, so though it looks like a lie it is within her town meta to do exactly that.

Well...okay.

Why did you initially say there was no lie if you are aware that she shoots from the hip somewhat randomly as town?

on the gender thing: can we jsut agree that its not a huge deal and jsut call her she out of respect. if she continues i will get onto her peronally and tell her to stop. she may not listen to you guys about petty thign but she will listent o me about it.

Doesn't sound like she's particularly useful to town if we need a diplomat/negotiator to keep her useful - no?

hey ika, i'm not a crazy jelly bean people calling me it or he doesn't offend me or cause me to get all twisty. I'm not easily offended by name calling, sometimes it can be fun.

Hey, Elusive, you kind of ducked two questions from me. I'll repeat them (since last time I trusted someone here to have a brain I was sadly let down, so why take the risk twice. For the record, this is not an insult...well, actually, yes, it's an insult, albeit at Fuzzy, not at you. I am slightly miffed at you for ducking questions, but am willing to believe you simply didn't read them and that's why you didn't answer them. That said, if you did read them and intentionally didn't answer them - say so, that will save me some time later. I do love hearing myself speak, but I don't like wasting time when I'm being intentionally ducked.)
But here are my questions;

1. Is Ika allowed to discuss your meta? (I know he's actually already doing so, but I'd just like to give him full permission as he appears to think that discussing your meta would bug you for some reason) As part and parcel of this is - is he allowed to provide some links? If you would rather he not do this - could you explain why.

Second question.

2. I asked you for your opinion of Ika's defense of you. He sprang forward and acted as a blocker between you and me, and I'd like to know your thoughts on that, especially since he started with the line of 'Elusive is not lying' and has adjusted now to 'well, it might look like she is, but you can't read her like that due to logic'. Also, frankly, the way you went silent when he started defending you was...questionable to me, so I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Thanks.

but I have never seen thor not hunting with extreme logical edge as town.

What are your thoughts on my two primary cases currently?

I can see some logic but I am not that convinced tbh. Usually your cases will feel more clear/direct I guess?

Okay.

What feels indirect about the cases? One is "she's a liar - here's why" and the other is "he's Sakura's buddy, here's why" and I sort of felt they were both very direct.
What is indirect about them?

Hint: starting to suggest you are making stuff up at this point...so make this answer look good.

Like, the two elusive quotes clearly look like a lie when juxtaposed against each other. So I'm there with you on that it's probable that elusive is scum and had a massive Smurf up here. I'm not convinced though, that this isn't "I need to justify my actions afterwards and twisting the facts is okay if it protects me" townElusivemode because whether you like it or not, that feels pretty plausible to me. In the off chance that her definitions are somehow just hilariously strange

That's usually the point where you hop off the fence and offer your own thoughts though. You kind of hedge this debate the whole way through.

I don't necessarily find it smoking gun either, given that the point you're making about her asking you questions about choof seems a bit like a mistake on her end. Is it not probable that in her mind she thought you were talking a lot about choof while forgetting that she'd asked you questions about choof?

I see absolutely no reason to believe this - do you?

I imagine she probably skimmed your ISO for quotes on choof/copper when doing so, right?

She obviously did that - the question is whether it was supposed to be a smokescreen or she legit thought it justified her case. I lean towards smokescreen - I was asking you what you thought. The iso skim is, functionally, obvious fact.

I have a built-in hesitance to buying any borderline semantic-based Thor argument.

I am so annoyed by this defensive line.
The only "semantic" in there is what she thinks "Case" is defined as.
And even if we go by her definition (which I'm fine to do) her response appears scummy. So I don't think it actually matters what yu think she believes "case" meant, what matters is if you think she could be town in either instance.
I'll agree the case involves the definition of a word - I'll disagree that it is based on that definition rather than the actions and, fairly clear lies, that took place.

though I can accept one insane person - two strikes me as likely containing scum, yeah?

Lol. No. You even trying to imply that ridiculous shit=scum worries me. Don't do that Smurf.

Why not?

If you're unwilling to hop on the otalia wagon you guys could see where a fuzzy wagon goes

I would rather lynch you than Fuzzy or Mneumonic, really.
You are just an empty wagon pusher.

[Thor665]

That's usually the point where you hop off the fence and offer your own thoughts though. You kind of hedge this debate the whole way through.

Point being, I think elusive is scummy

Yeah, totally hedging my read on her and not just explaining why I'm not hard scumreading her vs somewhat scumreading her. If I can see a potential town mindset behind something someone is doing, then I'm not going to scumread them as hard as someone doing something that I simply can't imagine town doing. I can imagine townElusive playing like this. Thus her scummy behavior isn't as clearly coming from a scumslot as you keep saying it is, at least from my POV.

Oh, come on now, the sentence you quoted was followed by a "but" and even in this answer you're sitting on a fence.

Yeah because bad play is never caused by bad play and is always just because scum, right? If she was skimming [which you've agreed with was the case]/seems like she isn't super committed into the game then why are you so damn sure that she didn't just make a mistake?

Hold up now - I agreed that she skimmed *my iso to pull up quotes*
I did not say she was skimming the entire game, nor do I think that if she was it somehow justifies her stated belief as regards me.
Do you? How does that work if so? If not - what is the point of this?

I really don't get how you can't see how you find it so improbable that she might have just skimmed her quotes and forgot she asked you questions about choof.

I absolutely see no reason to believe that - literally her conversation with me was 90% of her input into this game.
Feel free to call me wrong on that and back it up, but it is ILLOGICAL to think that, in my opinion, unless your theory is that she has the memory of a goldfish or something.
I think she was even citing that conversation with me *while calling me scummy for having it* so, no, she knew what she was saying in that regard.
Why do you think she maybe doesn't?

You think I shouldn't be hesitant when I find your thoughts on her to be a little too directed and strong for what she's actually done? If I feel like someone's case on someone could be opportunistic scum trying to push me in a Smurfy direction I'm going to be a little more wary.

Being hesitent is worlds different from calling my case "semantics based".
Feel free to pick one and clarify which you believe. I feel like you're changing the tone and form of your answer here.

Bad play is not inherently scummy. You've been playing on this site for longer than I have. I don't know how you can pretend that people can't be illogical/make huge Smurf-ups and not be town.

You already had me happily admitting that I don't see them as likely partners and even have a belief that one is likely town.
That does not overrule the concept that a stated bad play *plus* an immediate sheep on it is sketchy.
Town are, in my opinion, more likely to analyze an attack.
Scuma re more likely to see an easy attack.
I think play on this site fully and easily supports this belief and, if you really want, can assuredly show me as town using this method and can more than likely show me being correct using it as well. So don't throw empty commentary about what I do or don't believe in my face unless you can back up my supposed beliefs.
This is a valid thought process.

.so make this answer look good.

I will rather truthfully give my thoughts as i think they are. you know I am that kind of player that will say his un-filtered thoughts even if they might seem scummy just because its his policy.

Awesome.

So...feel free to use your unfiltered thoughts to...y'know...answer the question now?
Or are you dodging it? You can, just let me know that's what you're doing.
But I'd like you to answer the question.

[Thor665]

but I have never seen thor not hunting with extreme logical edge as town.

What are your thoughts on my two primary cases currently?

I can see some logic but I am not that convinced tbh. Usually your cases will feel more clear/direct I guess?

Okay.

What feels indirect about the cases? One is "she's a liar - here's why" and the other is "he's Sakura's buddy, here's why" and I sort of felt they were both very direct.
What is indirect about them?

Hint: starting to suggest you are making stuff up at this point...so make this answer look good.

To save time.
Here is the question you dodged.

@ZZZX

[Thor665]

I had taken that as a reply to Gork, and hadn't realized you need to reassess why my cases lack clarity - since you're voting me over it, I sort of thought you'd already figured that out.

But, sure, take as much time as you need. Just keep me updated and expect me to mock your case and find you scummy until you manage it.

[Thor665]

Honestly, looking at the time/date stamps - I am of the mind that you're lying to me, to be frank.

[Thor665]

Please elaborate on how I'm sitting on a fence when I literally explicitly say with real life words in the true timeline of this universe that elusive is a scumread of mine that I'm just not incredibly confident in.

Define "incredibly confident"?
Because currently all I see is you saying "I find her scummy...but this is town, and that might be town, and this would make her town"
Which, to my mind, is *not* finding her scummy at all.

Do you think her play thus far indicates that she's super invested into this game?

Define super invested?
She certainly is posting more than many and also has had emotional flare ups (real or faked - either way they imply investment). I see no reason to suggest she's not invested.

Again, it's based on what I feel is her level of commitment in the game and based on how many games I feel like she's playing in. I just perceive that regardless of what her alignment is, she's not invested.

Yeah...but...greater than 50% of her posts were about that one thing - and your argument is based on the idea that she just randomly forgot it.
That is crazy talk. You sound crazy to me right now.
Have you read her iso?

My reads feel super weak right now, so for you to look at me and call me illogical for not having a strong opinion on someone who I find hard to read just feels off to me.

Logic is a parameter free from confidence.
They are not actually connected.
Why do you think they are?

Firstly, this is a long journey from:

though I can accept one insane person - two strikes me as likely containing scum, yeah?

Which looks a lot more to me like you're saying "illogical/bad play is inherently scummy!" and I get super wary of whenever anyone uses that as an argument.

Firstly, that is *not* a long way. If you even note, my phrase includes the wording "likely". Meaning I am not selling it as an absolute, I am selling it as a greater than 50% random chance.
Which falls perfectly in line with everything else I've said on the subject, and also contains awareness that bad play also contains town - which is what you suggested I was ignoring.

Also, I really disagree that scum are going to be making easy attacks right now.

Why?

Honestly my head kind of hurts trying to fully explain my thoughts right now/tracing all of the points you're talking about here and I'm not sure if I'm being unreasonable or just being stupid here so I kind of want to take a step back and read over everything you're saying again.

I actually do that more than you might think, because I often find my words funny.
That said - as far as I can tell, my thoughts are fairly straightforward and also lack any hypocrisy or contradictions. And at that point it's back on you to either ask for clarification of points you fail to understand, or to address your own thoughts (which you are openly admitting as muddled). Me re-reading things I believe and also think I presented clearly is not going to help you de-muddle. I do not feel muddled. I don't need to de-muddle. You feel muddled. You need to de-muddle. Maybe you should re-read me? Maybe you should ask me about something that confuses you prior to answering it, if it confuses you enough to leave you muddled you probably shouldn't answer it randomly.

I don't get this.

[Thor665]

You also never had a "secondly" - that makes me sad.

[Thor665]

Well duh - you're voting for me.

[Thor665]

Well duh - you're voting for me.

I dont think my vote will hurt you that much imho. and i dont feel keeping it there a little more will hurt will it?

I was talking to Anti, not you.
He was announcing he would be down with voting me...as though there was doubt.
I agree - I don't think keeping your vote on me will hurt me. Indeed, I feel it strengthens my case on you, at the moment.

Hey thor how is having no scum reads town?

How is tunneling on varsoon town?

How is mnemonic's reads list town?

Why is the otalia slot allowed to be Smurftons more incompetent than your scumread elusive

and still be Smurfing town?

1. I agree it is not particularly pro-town, but it is hardly proof of pro-scum play either. I have been town with no town reads - has that never happened to you?

2. How is it scummy? I submit it is neutral. Hell, yesterday *I* tunneled on Varsoon - so, do you think I'm scum too?

3. How is it scummy?

4. I have not called Elusive scum for being incompetent. I have also not called Mneumonic, nor Otolia, town. I have asked for the case on them...I am generally being met with empty rhetoric. Which...eh, is a thing - but I'm not sure if people honestly expect it to convince me when I'm sitting on multiple scumspects with cases I can actually describe.

[Thor665]

What is with
All this angst
On Thors slot

His questions look pretty good to me

Speaking of my pretty good questions;

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6700460

I'm going to go beat my head against a wall now.
Then later I'll be back and everyone can note how mean Thor is when he denigrates other people's play quality.

[Thor665]

This is why I have issues with Larges.
At least I'm honest about skipping stuff.
The rest of you should get on that train - y'know, just admit you're skipping stuff, and then use shocking language like "I missed that" or "I hadn't seen that" and then fething adjust your thoughts after seeing new info.
Y'know, crazy play like that?

Or don't iso anything, read anything, and then question people on stuff they're answering in the quotes you're quoting?

I'm fine with gut play - but, people, there is a difference between gut play, and loose play, and CRAP play.

[Thor665]

And if you get insulted about that - I submit you play so badly you should replace out. Because, y'know, vaguely following the game is part of the social contract of signing up to it.

[Thor665]

If that is the case then you should say that (or, oddly, just go with the 'look it up' concept) as opposed to weighing in on it.
And if you discover you have a habit of remembering things wrong - work on that, double check yourself and don't spout off first.
It's the same principal.

[Thor665]

As I said - this always makes Thor mean whenever he is annoyed at "not reading gak and making gak up" as a concept.
how fething terrible of me.

[Thor665]

Whatever - I am mean.
And the gameplay here leaves much to be desired.

[Thor665]

There is something off with Thor this game, he admits that it's questionable to focus on Elusive while voting someone else and is spending way too much time replying to accusations and justifying his play, the last time he played town with me and he was pressured he just called his wagon stupid and went on pushing the lynch he wanted.

1. I have not admitted that it is questionable to focus on Elusive while voting somewhere else. Quote it?
2. I am not actually spending anytime responding to accusations - because people aren't actually accussing me of anything much at all.
3. I have called the wagon on me stupid.
4. I am still actively pushing the lynch I want.

What the hell, dude?

Well duh - you're voting for me.

i am not

but thanks for proving my point that you've dragged the discussion into such a quagmire of crap that important stuff is left by the wayside

Blame the mod for not doing a regular votecount then - in the last one you are still OMGUS voting me via derp.

What important stuff do you think we have left by the wayside?
Specifically.
Because I'm betting this is an empty comment by scum.

[Thor665]

When I have no reads I admit it and give some attempt to explain why. I don't tunnelSmurf the vi to cover it up.

Marquis has an inconsitency in mnenomic's reads list that you say isn't worthy of sheeping while going on about your own inconsistencies with elusive that require a lot more mental gymnasics to follow (I really don't know what your problem is with her tbh). It's like the case with the longest word count gives you the hardest boner.

There's also the fact that mnemonic slot has done nothing between two separate players to forward the game state. And its so bad,

the slot is still being referred to as otalia's slot.

Because that's next to all there is to look at.

1. I kind of thought this Mneumonic case was that...but, okay, so you're agreeing it's possible to not have town reads - so where's the fire in him not having town reads (also, frankly, didn't he have town reads? I seem to recall some on that list. Not a lot, but like 1-3)

2. I actually dislike overlong cases.
I have explained (and linked) my Elusive case multiple times. Here is a link to me linking the case; http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p6700116
I agree there is an "inconsistency" in the reads list of mneumonic - I disagree that it is a scummier inconsistency than the one Elusive did...because what Elusive did was a straight up lie, not an inconsistency.

3. If "doing gak all" was a scumtell in this game, I can think of worse offenders than that slot. i will agree it is an issue.
I will agree that some people are still referring to the slot as Otolia's slot (you most of all) - I don't think that's a valid scumtell.
I disagree that it is all there is to look at - even you are referencing a case by Marquis that is *not* based on Otolia.

[Thor665]

Because I'm betting this is an empty comment by scum.

well, let's see

we've got arguing with ika about crap
arguing with fuzzy about crap

crap
crap
crap

very little about me or otolia and mostly crap

Um...I asked you what was the important stuff we missed - not what you think we missed it due to.
I can grok that you feel everything I say is crap (or...at least you've held that belief since I started scumreading you and at no time before... )
That said - I asked you what was MISSED.
Y'know, that important stuff that got buried.

Literally

the only thing I did that is remotely questionable is

keep my vote on Anti while *also* (continuing) calling Elusive scummy.

So the only way that is questionable is if there are multiple scum teams and Elusive and I are both scum and on different teams - because other than that Oka's point actually doesn't make any sense.

I do not think the bolded means what you seem to believe it means if you think that's "agreeing" though...well...okay.

Oka's comment makes a lot of sense to me, if you're voting Anti this means he is your top scumread, your focus should also reflect that, the fact that you were instead spending all your time questioning and replying to Elusive is weird, and it's not scummy only in the situation you describe, it's also scum indicative if you are soft bussing anti.

Yes, i am soft bussing Anti.
You should vote him.

I am also amazed at the people explaining to me that a lack of a tunnel is scummy. This game...

im slacking a bit this game
ill dig up the anti case
what do you mean by the thor/elu/ika thing

When you "dig up the Anti case" I suspect you'll find the Thor/Elusive/Ika thing.
According to some people I'm scummy because that's all I'm talking about nowadays - so it should be easy to find.
Please stop failing at the game.

I cant help but wonder if he is hoping for people to jump on the Elusive wagon but dont wont to switch until a few people jump on. Not sure if Thor was scum why he wouldnt just jump on the Device wagon since it seem like the one with the most steam.

I would be straight up happy if people hopped on an Elusive wagon - I find her scummy and have been pushing that and have been openly admitting to pushing it - that said, i only have one vote so, yes, I'm going to vote Anti at the moment. If 4+ people hopped on Elusive I'd move in a hot second.

@Mdevice ... Also are you saying Maquis inconsistency is a scum tell????

Pedit: No, I don't think marquis inconsistency is a scumtell, just a mistake in a game with so many posts.

ok since when are we even suggesting that me bringing up mnemonic's read inconsistency on me is something to even consider me being scum for

like

i don't get it. you're apparently reading but i don't know if you're saying this because you just don't understand what's going on there or because you're trying to pretend like you're involved and actually know what the "inconsistency" refers to.

QFT. Beautiful truth.

i saw elusive's whole "mnemonic you should know i'm female if you have a read on me" and apart from that being a really really weak point i just think it's a bit self-centered, but then that's a landmark of her play as i know it. if you're talking about something else, summarize it with context - not just linking it, because with the game as it is right now i'm nowhere near inclined to go hunting.

*sputter*
And then you ruin bautiful truth with ugly hypocrisy.

Though you are now the *second* player aware of my Anti push and *not* my Elusive push even though some people are calling me scummy because I'm apparently all about the Elusive push and am too soft on the Anti push.

Here's a quote of a link to a link of me describing the case (in context)

Here is a link to me linking the case; http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p6700116

You say you townread Anti.
What do you think of my point that he has suddenly been all about attcking me specifically and only after I voted him - even though he has not once discussed the value of my case.
I went from someone he was supporting and working with Day 1 - to someone who is empty noise and crap on Day 2.
But with no comment on my case.
And no actual interaction with me in any other form.
Simply I voted him - I now equal crap.

I find that SKEEVY AS HELL.
Why are you okay with it?

[Thor665]

thor can you point me to this anti case
i dont see a big writeup
so much as
slow divorce

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p6691481
That - I never claimed it was big - I also fail to see how it looks slow.

Thor- my point is that you are might just be optimistic in your votes and so waiting for elusive wagon is just a way to get a mislynch

Opportunistic? Or do you actually mean optimistic? I don't really follow you either way.

My favorite part of this post is where you went out of your way to change tunnelfuck to tunnelsmurf and still missed that it was a key word in my gripe with otalia's lack of reads.

I addressed that point regardless.

Also, I clicked both links to your case and I still don't get it, and can't be assed to retrack through the game to figure it out. I'm not the only one.

Wow - so even with links and a clearly described procession of the lie and why I think it's a lie you "don't get it and can't be asked to do any more work on it"

Okay - sure, let's play the derp.
"What don't you 'get' my dear sir? Allow me to spoon feed you"
Do you understand that I am calling her a liar? Y/N?
Do you understand what I am calling a lie? Y/N?
Do you understand why it looks scummy? Y/N?

Clue me in to where this very convoluted and complicated and multi-facted and hard to follow case is losing you and I'll clarify.

[Thor665]

Gork was able to get it in one.
Ika pretty much was making up his understanding of reality and got it in three.
You're at 2 - c'mon man, pull this together!

[Thor665]

I don't understand the case on Otolia.
And Sakura forgot to buddy Anti in favor of buddying me, remember?

i say slow because
you liked anti in the beginning
so the general thing is
you went from liking him to not liking him

not much to comment on here
i guess my first response is
'is this a shit test
i have never known thor to give lame questions
why does this one look so lame'

id be willing to lynch anti on sakura-buddy
but id also be wiling to lynch you on that

the only reason i dont
is everyone else is jumping on you

You actually kind of successfully said nothing here.
Anti and I are "Sakura buddies" for diametrically opposed concepts - if you think one of us makes sense as a buddy then you should not think the other one does.
Do you actually think both cases work?
How?
If not - what are you saying?

Your current vote is pure useless - you have established your belief in Copper scum.
Now - be proactive and ruddy functional and stop pretending like you're actually helping scumhunt via that vote - you're sidelining yourself, That;s bad town or good scum play. Neither is very helpful right now.

[Thor665]

And no one is really "jumping" on me except in vague attackish ways lacking votes because when I point out that people who don't read and make up stuff play the game badly they're like "but I don't read and make up stuff! Raaaaage!" as opposed to noting that, yeah, they suck at the game. Whoop-dee-derp.

[Thor665]

or maybe its cus we know its a game and we really dont give a crap about being right or wrong or geting into petty battle about your ego?

Wow.
You do realize that my harsh requirements and complaints are;

Red the game.
Don't make up stuff.

If that's too much for you to handle...eh.

[Thor665]

::a nearby brick wall has head shaped bloodstains upon it - no clear reason is able to be surmised.::

[Thor665]

But I'm keeping my vote
I have more case to make
And no t time yet

You're actually past the point of having time to derp around on that wagon. There isn't that much time left in the day really.
Vote a real wagon.

[Thor665]

@Thor

, the primary beef of why you're voting for Anti is that Sakura didn't buddy him before you pointed it out, right?

No - the primary issue is that she skimmed over Anti (as in, didn't bother reading him at all) in an effort to buddy me - meaning that, for whatever reason, she felt a stronger need to buddy me than Anti and also didn't feel any particular reason to read Anti but did feel a reason to read me.

Can you also give me your thoughts on the fact that MD forgot about NS's push for FOD given that MD made a huge wall analysis of everything NS had done on D1?

People are already calling me mean for pointing out that people are not reading and are making up stuff.
I will agree he was not reading and was making up stuff.
I find that pathetic and his play poor.
He can join the growing club, that includes a fair number of players in this game already.

I am, sadly, forced to say that they're probably not all scum, and some are town who think they can play the game.
I dunno why you're pointing out something like that wherein you must know my answer is *snarl*.

[Thor665]

Speaking of reads, im currenty town reading antihero due to his setup spec debate actually, his annoyance seems legit if he's town due to the hated claim (I have meta reasons for townreading him too but i'll leave that on the table for now as it'd be better to see who actually scumreads him).

Isn't this her reading him?

Are you playing dumb or do you actually need me to describe the difference between reading posts while actually offering reads or, as scum tend to do to scumbuddies, offering reads without actually reading posts.

I will agree that she used the word 'read' there?

I dunno why you're pointing out something like that wherein you must know my answer is *snarl*.

I'm trying to see if your reasoning for scumreading elusive would extend over to MD for doing something similar. Obviously it's to a lesser extent, but I think parallels can be drawn, yes?

To be frank, you made me weigh in prior to the ability to tell that information clearly.
I am not going to explain the path at this point - but if you go back and look at the Elusive thing and note the point I started to use the word scum you can probably spot at least one difference.

[Thor665]

Glad to know that Thor's general MO for the rest of this game is going to just be "I'm going to Smurf on you if you try and interact with me ever".
Will save myself some grief in the future by just naked voting you if I think you're scum and ignoring you if I think you're town.

What other answer do you need, exactly?
I was being fairly explicit and open in my responses - and feel I conveyed my stance quite clearly.

I really don't need this "shut down as a solution" strategy tossed in my face every third game day.
I think your questions were a little silly - but I answered them. What the hell else do you expect or want from a player?

[Thor665]

I mean, seriously - I had up to this point quite specifically been noting that Sakura wasn't "reading" Anti-hero and, feel, that what I meant was that she had not *read his posts*.

You then challenge me about her offering a town read on him (which has nothing to do with what I've been saying about her) qualifies as her reading him.

I mean...the heck? Yeah, it's the word read, but it has nothing to do with what I've been talking about. Which means either you're playing dumb, or I've been grossly incapable of communicating what I think I'm communicating to the game. Since I had *just* indicated that she had been "reading my posts and not reading Anti's posts" I felt annoyed because, in my answer that you're replying to I FELT I HAD MADE MY MEANING OF THE WORD READ CLEAR.

You then asked that question...

And then I'm a dick for getting testy about it.

Yeah, maybe I'm too tense, but come the hell on - you knew what I meant, right?
Why did you ask that question - you had to know that wasn't the "read" I meant when I said "read".

[Thor665]

Just annoyed that it feels like you're treating me like I'm stupid when I'm trying to get a read on you and getting what feels like abuse over it just makes me want to give up on trying.

To be honest I don't think I'm treating you like you're stupid - or, at least to clarify, my rage is based on a concept that you're not stupid and are jerking me around for reasons that escape me. Most of my frustration with this game is predicated on a concept that people *could* play better and are *choosing* not to. So, in a very awkward way, I'll argue that I'm actually trying to compliment everyone.

That said, yes, I am assuredly using a lot of harsh language about it.

That said - take a look at this game, the deadline, and what is going on.
We are in a shut down morass - with no one talking to anyone - and are wasting a MASSIVE amount of time via people either not doing anything (like, for instance, NS's or Anti's useless backsides, or, frankly, Ika of late - who is just needling me in his posts as opposed to playing the game) or we have people wasting time by asking people to explain/link things that have been explained/linked multiple times (just as an example, and it's not the only one, my running gag of linking me linking a case in a link when people ask what the case I have on Elusive is...while other people are saying I'm spending *too much time* focused on that case...like, clearly at least half that equation is clearly crazy sauce or isn't reading the fething game).

Is my rage the best solution to the issue?
I dunno - maybe not, because I will admit all it tends to seem to do is get people offended that I am suggesting "not reading the game" is bad play. (and...seriously, WHAT?)
But I have tried the "be friendly, say nothing" method before - and it also does nothing at all while leaving me seething inside.
So I find the outbursts help *ME* play better - and seem to do nothing to make the crud play of the rest of the game worse.
Therefore I've chosen that as my coping method.
If you have an alternate or better solution I would be THRILLED to entertain it. But I haven't figured it out yet.

As to the game state - it is slurp and empty at the moment. Really, we should have done an L-1 claim *DAYS* ago, but this town can't seem to pull that together for some reason.
Like, seriously - explain, defend, and push the case on Mneumonic beyond empty repetition.
Or, respond and get behind a case that is being pushed with a case (like mine on Anti, or mine on Elusive)
Or create a new case - and push *that* effectively, like...well...like I don't think anyone is really doing right now...I dunno, maybe the push on Oka...sorta? I'm not actually against that case because I can at least agree he's useless, but it's being pushed on the concept of "useless" which is not really a tasty case regardless, but...meh.

I dunno -do you see something happening that is valid that I'm overlooking?
Do you have an interesting push we should get on?
Do you honestly have such disagreement with my cases you can't push them to claim "just to see"
Do you have a case you'd like to push to claim and can describe a case that isn't "dey sucxxors!" as the basis of it (and if so, why haven't you been pushing it five days ago?).

All I really want is for people who are not reading, and not pushing to stop whining when I call that bad play.
Either explain how it's good play.
Or, believe in your head that it's good play, and don't feel a need to explain that I'm wrong.
Hell - sit around and describe how pushing play (which I assuredly do) is "bad" and at least that's a stance.

But this game is quicksand.
It is ugly, derp quicksand that is killing town momentum.
I really think we need a push, we need people to say "I like this wagon" we need votes to move and we need a claim and we needed it three days ago.

[Thor665]

Votecount 2.5

notscience (2) -

mnemonicdevice, TheFuzzylogic99

Antihero (4) -

Thor665, ika, elusive, Gorkington

Boonskiies (0) -

TheFuzzylogic99 (0) -

copper223 (1) -

droog

elusive (0) -

Flubbernugget (0) -

Gorkington (0) -

ika (0) -

droog (0) -

Marquis (0) -

OkaPoka (0) -

mnemonicdevice (7) -

Flubbernugget, notscience, copper223, Seohyun, Marquis, pisskop, OkaPoka

pisskop (0) -

Seohyun (1) -

Antihero

Thor665 (1) -

ZZZX

Varsoon (0) -

ZZZX (0) -

Not Voting -

Boonskiies, Varsoon

With 18 alive, it's 10 to lynch.

Deadline in (expired on 2015-04-02 19:15:00) (April 2^nd).

Like, here's th emost recent votecount.
I do know that the Anti wagon just went +2 from some people (I forget whom already and don't think it's worth going back to look)
But what is this?

We have 2 people failing at life and not voting. Gosh - thanks guys.
We have 3 other people voting non wagons (oh, though one is ZZZX who did just hop on Anti...and dear gawd, good luck tracking his thought process if that's a town one)
Droog is actually acting *proud* of his useless vote.
Anti has gone silent running on his non-vote.
Then we have the biggest wagon in the game (ooooh, 7 votes! [probably 6 now...was copper the other move? I think copper was the other Anti move.])

I have BEEN ASKING FOR DAYS to have the wagon explained to me.
No one is doing it.
What is that?

When people ask me about my wagon, I make fun of them - but I link it.
When they say they don't understand I ASK THEM WHAT IS IT THAT THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND AND OFFER TO EXPLAIN IT.

Why is NO ONE doing that for the Mneumonic wagon?
Seriously.

That is not how you push a wagon.
There is a reason the Anti wagon is growing, it's because I am pushing it and am stating the case, and am pointing out questionable things Anti is doing.
It's not even like I town read Mneumonic - if I could just pop him from "meh" to "scum" I'd hop on and push that wagon - but literally no one seems to give a damn.

Deadline is in 7 days and we haven't even got a claim yet.

How long would people like to have to think of a potntial second wagon if we like the claim?

This is Mafia 101.

[Thor665]

thor let em take a page from you on what you shout at everyone: just repalce out

if all you are going to do is bitch at people that they /could/ play better (im just lazy to play better) then your not really progressing the game state and more or less making people feel even more demotivated to play (cus thats what its doing to me as well, you yelling and stupid shit is just wanting me to even post less). have you ever considered that we are content with how we play right now? or that some of us dont like to put foward effort to only see it go to waste?

like do you realize that your constant complainign abotu gamestate and players is really one of the reaosns why im actualy avoiding the thread?

This is insanity in post form.

[Thor665]

"Thor saying people not reading the thread are bad players is so upsetting to me I'm going to not read the thread....except to read Thor's posts and complain that they make me not want to read the thread"

What?

[Thor665]

@Ika - seriously - do you take personal offense that I think players who don't read the game are bad players?
Like - do you think that's a *good* playstyle?
Do you use that playstyle?

Because if you don't...why does it offend you?

[Thor665]

do i find it personaly insulting? no
do i find it highly demotivating? yes

So it demotivates you to have someone say that other players should read the game?


Other players should also be able to describe cases, explain their thoughts, and vote who they think is scum.
Demotivation!

yes i find it good cus i use it a lot and it has done me much more help vs me rereading crap.

Reading and rereading are two different things - did you mean what you wrote?
Because I actually don't advocate rereading the entire thread - that's crazy talk.

you think its bad, i think its not

Yes, I do think it's bad if players don't read the game. I think those players are terrible and shouldn't play the game, since the game is based on "knowing what is happening".

i think your constant complaing about players not reading is making the game a negative atmosphere and makign the game more sloggy with your constant complaing about playstyles when its much better suited for a MD thread.

An MD thread of "should players read the game" would be the most laughably silly MD thread in existence.
I am actually tempted to make one now.

Thor stop trying to be insulting and intimidating and work harder to push your Anti case instead of acting the way you are. You are likely town but you are acting very anti town at the moment

You are aware that I'm the only person still actively pushing a lynch and that the Anti wagon is currently growing, right?

Thor
What do you think of NS? Is he high or low on your scum reads??? I will vote Anti if you help me lynch NS tomorrow. I am hating the MD case and you made a decent case for a Sakura/ Anti connection. I think MD is likely town so I want to move my vote where ther is likely to hit scum.

I find the NS case, as I've said, to be based on "he suxxors".
I can agree with that.
I just don't think he is alone in that - and at that stage...well, Anti suxxors too - he's been dodging the thread for days now.
And, in a vague sense, I might argue that is worse because he at least appeared to understand how to play the game prior to that - NS...maybe not so much.

[Thor665]

Huh...so you are the only one actually helping the town right??

No - but I do think I stand in an unhappily tiny circle.

This is a silly overstatement as I am pushing for a NS lynch as you are pushing for a Anti lynch.

Since (with two votes) you sit at the third largest wagon, I will agree you are doing some work.
I would also note that I didn't call out your vote as terrible...almost as though you're complaining about me making an attack I didn't make.

You are acting like an egomaniac

Possibly so.

what is a suxxor. never heard of tat term

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=suxxor

What is worse about Antis dodges as oppose to NS???

Not much, I consider them very even, personally. What is worse about NS's compared to Anti? Anti has the larger wagon.
Wanna vote Anti?

What do you mean we need a claim?

I mean I believe that the best thing for this game is to have (already) got someone to L-1 and demanded a claim.

are you saying we need to force a claim by quick wagon?????

I'm pretty sure our chances for "quick" went away about a week ago - but, yes, I *am* saying we should get a claim.

So btw all, the VC apparently don't include a majority of the votes that actually happened. I guess that analysis was useless.

So if I were to use VC's only I would get your list?

This looks worthy of a double check.

[Thor665]

And yes Thor, this is not a meta argument as you classify it, you would call it a gut read.

I would call that a meta read - just one with a painfully tiny sample size.

@copper and thor, so long as I didn't miss a vote anywhere, if you used only the VC then you would recieve the exact same results as I got. Policy lynch me for lying if that is wrong.

Copy that.

@Gork - I don't really find Mneumonic scummy for his "lie" - this is different than the way Elusive lied. I can explain if you need me to, but I think it's pretty obvious at this stage the differences...though I suppose maybe that's me setting myself up for rage.

Eh, look at the way each responded to being called a liar. One backed up their comment with a *vast wall*...that didn't support their claims. The other said 'yup, bit of a derp, but if you look at it this way you get my info'.

Barring someone being less lazy than me (and I don't expect that in this game, particularly) and researching the VCs to see if there is any other discrepency (and, I'll admit, him saying there isn't one makes me suspect there won't be one) I would not particularly support the Mneumonic wagon at this point with my (admittadly vague - albeit not due to lack of asking!) understanding of the case on him.

busy week, will post sometime tomorrow

You are full of fail.

[Thor665]

thor has done an awesome job of sinking this game into apathy with walls more than fuzzy or ns could ever hope to with lurking

Is that why you started scumreading me - the walls?

[Thor665]

I started posting walls fairly early in the game.

Why do/did you scumread me?

What do you think of the wagon on you and its growth and growing verbal support in the late day phase?

What do you think o fmy case on you - which you have not addressed yet?

[Thor665]

What do you think o fmy case on you - which you have not addressed yet?

if it's based on me+sakura, i would like to direct YOU to touhou as well.

What will I find there that will change my mind?

What do you think of the wagon on you and its growth and growing verbal support in the late day phase?

seeing as no one is actually doing anything, i think you're exaggerating this point.

The wagon on you has gained all of the recent votes (2-3) and also has had two additional people suggest willingness to vote you within the past 24 hours.
The other contender wagons are one that sits at 2 votes with no one talking about it, and one that sits at 6 votes, having just lost one to the Anti wagon and having no verbal support (And me dinging it repeatedly for lacking anything resembling a cohesive case...so, in other words, it is being attacked, has been for days, and has no one stepping up to defend it - meaning its a weak and dying wagon)

So, yes, i do think suggesting that the wagon on you is strong and getting stronger is immensely a valid opinion.

Any other thoughts on it other than "It's not that strong"?

Why do/did you scumread me?

the. walls. are. Smurf.

So...you do scumread me for the walls?

you know what i had to do to find your "case" on me? go to your iso, control+f my name and it showed up about halfway through. you've dragged this game into "let's argue over semantics and bullSmurf" mode instead of looking at the big picture and that's a LOT more scum motivated than town.

That makes a lot of sense - I made the case on you at the start of Day 2, so it showing up halfway through my ISO seems really likely...what does this prove or disprove? This really feels like a very empty attack post with no actual basis of scummy behavior attached to it. Oooooh - my case on you shows up *halfway* through my ISO!...well...sure...?

What big picture do you think I'm overlooking right now?
I don't think there is one. I mean, that *sounds* interesting, but...it also sounds empty. I have a scumread on people, I'm pursuing it, that's scumhunting, it's how the game is played.
What's the big picture that I'm occluding?

[Thor665]

So mnemonic/fuzzy/?? scumteam?

I have Fuzzy as town and Mneumonic as nullish.

Would you like to hop on the Anti wagon?
What's your read on him at the moment?

[Thor665]

You're saying he does not feel squeamish to you here?

[Thor665]

I would like Thor to post a claer case of why Anti is scum and Anti to respond to that.

Welcome to the conversation already in progress between Anti and myself.
I have posted a clear case.
Anti has rather awkwardly in my opinion, responded to it. I have then challenged the response.
Feel free to look back at his and my last three or so posts and you'll get the entire thing.
I'll be over by my brick wall.

[Thor665]

What big picture do you think I'm overlooking right now?

well a legit, readable case on the person you're voting is a start.

You are aware of my case on you - Sakura's buddy interaction and skipping over you.

That's the case.
You are aware of this.
I have stated it multiple times.

[Thor665]

I also don't think that qualifies under any definition of "big picture" that I am aware of.

[Thor665]

Sakura's buddy interaction and skipping over you.

i'm not sure which universe that qualifies as a "case"

this one is not it

That is very much a case.
You can argue that you, personally, like cases that are more wall-like or something - but a case can indeed exist based off a single point, and the lack of additional points is, at best a compliment to your scum game, and at worst an insult to my town game - but it fails to prevent the case from being a case.

You're also still being dodgy as hell with all that "bigger picture" and "halfway through his ISO" bull-hooey you're offering up as weird smokescreen/attacks at me and, even when I'm calling you flat out on them you're not saying anything about it.
Also, you're ducking people asking you about your case.
You've gone full lurk with batting attacks as your posting style for about the last 24 hours.

This does not sell me on you being town.

Also, that case that isn't a case (and that other people are saying I'm not pushing hard enough)? It just got another vote on you.
So, y'know, address it?
Maybe address some of that other insanity you're spewing too?

Antihero (town meta. i have no idea why you guys are so hellbent on his lynch but there's such a noticeable difference between his town and scum meta and this one is the former)

If you can read him like a book this begs for further explanation.
Especially considering the current path the wagons are taking - if you town read him you should have started in on this about two days ago.
Clarify this?

[Thor665]

TBF I'm pretty sure Marquis has been calling Anti town for a while iirc. I wouldn't mind him elaborating on why Anti's latest behavior is striking him as being normal townAnti behavior though.
Marquis should answer my last question to him as well.

I'm mostly interested in how one towns him Day 1 and Day 2 - the play shift seems really jarring to me.

@Fuzzy - you're being ignored currently - your last case presentation on him was actually pretty good. It just didn't really sell me more than Anti. You need to work harder at engagement after case presentation. I will (Christlike in my humility) suggest you go back and look at how I did Anti. It's not about making a bigger and prettier case - it's about making sure people read the case and offer thoughts. That's how you push.

[Thor665]

hi marquis talk about Anti being town more kthnx.
His dodgy response to Thor seems normal to you?

I would say specifically the "big picture" and the "not a case" and the "not till the middle of your Iso" comments.

[Thor665]

@Marquis - I found Mini 1646 as an Anti scum game and...don't really see the difference.

Also, he assuredly hasn't done a sass wall like what you posted here in this game unless I'm really missing it - maybe the attack on Varsoon? With a bit of a squint?

Do you have any scum games that you feel showcase the difference in his play to show me? Maybe one where you accurately pegged him with this tell?

[Thor665]

when i say there's a huge difference, i mean it. there is a massive disconnect between town and scum anti. scum anti sounds like a 6th grader trying to quote a diss he heard in a r-rated movie he supposedly watched last night but keeps Smurfing up the lines. and this anti is genuine and on point.

Sure.
But...y'know, I don't see it in the scum game I found and would love a clearer example.
That's all I'm asking for. You're saying 'take my word for this' and I'm saying 'I'd be willing to if you can show a moment of it working or more clearly explain how to spot the thing'.
It seems a very reasonable stance - especially since Anti is ducking me, and now appears to be lying to me.

it's annoying that i have to keep doing this because the usual other players who can id town anti aren't around but i really don't see how you can scumreading him so strongly if you're not willing to at the very least compromise and give him a day or a cop clear.

Oh no - making you defend your beliefs! Terrible.
I'm sorry you have to go through this.

Also Thor can you post a link to that game

I literally gave the name of it.
Dear gawd.

YOU DIDN'T SMURFING READ THAT GAME THEN

HE USED THAT TELL TO PEG ME

IN
THAT
VERY
GAME
YOU
REFERENCED

SMURF

Did Marquis?
Because, if that happened Marquis did it without describing it or voting you as far as I can tell.
Link to Marquis' case that is making you froth with giant caps?

C'mon scum boy - link it.
I dare you.

Here's the ISO; http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
There - link me the post.
Tell me the post number.
Show me the case.
What is this?

Sakura is buddying and kissing up to him alot. i mean its like she being one of thoose creepy stalker to him.

Is she?
Compared to what she did to Gork and me she does not seem to be buddying Anti at all in my opinion.
Do you find those levels identical or, at least, quite similar?

[Thor665]

also

Mod notes

Prodding Antihero.

oh

maybe anti is scum

Okay, I thought what you claimed the tell as was a 'snark tell' if you will.
It's actually an activity tell?

What do you think of his snark in that scum game?
Do you have a snark based spot of him in a different scum game? Or even a town one?
You definitely noted snark, not activity.

How would you define scum Anti's activity levels?

Tho
if my theory of holds than it prob unlikely that Anti or You are scum. I am not sure of Gork. I did not really look at the interaction between her and Gork. Is there any reason to believe that she ignored FF and yet haevily buddied her scum partner ( Anti or Gork) can you tell me why I should read her buddying of you as a sign of town but her buddying of Anti as scum.

My comment to you was that she didn't buddy Anti.
Therefore any questions to me based on assessing how she buddied Anti a lot are a non-starter by definition.

How do you perceive that she buddied Anti a lot?

[Thor665]

i love how fuzzy is calling me out to expaling something when i was not here and was at work.

You're here now.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Anti
Vote: NS

[Thor665]

so go ahead, keep focusing on snark because while you won't win there, at least it's the closest you'll get.

Though I still think Anti was a whining liar saying you'd used that method to catch him in that game.

[Thor665]

I am so sure if he flip town you all can quick lynch me tomorrow.

This is at least the second and mane the third time that, unprompted, you are making this statement.
What the hell are you smoking?

[Thor665]

honestly im more intrested in her reaplce out right now cus thats a first from her...

Has she ever had such apparent inability to be in a game?
Because she was drastically behind and having trouble answering direct questions.
If she had never been in that sort of situation before a replace out makes a lot of sense - would her past experiences be different enough to explain her inability to play in this environment?

[Thor665]

Pushed a lynch on town and is lurking

thanks
sounds like settling

Since we're about a week past 'time to present wagons' and you haven't done anything in all that time to advance a unique case of your own - even if it is settling...so what?

[Thor665]

Okay if someone's inactive and not responding to building wagon on them why does it make sense to build the wagon over going for prods/replacement?

If you're talking NS - he is not inactive. He is active while saying and doing nothing.

[Thor665]

if were going to lynch inactives
can we go for boonskies

If you had expressed this a week ago and worked on it - sure.
You missed the deadline.

[Thor665]

I'm seriously tired of mn dodging lynches

Do you think NS looks like town?

[Thor665]

I believe I've already stated I think this is TownAnti.

Welcome to the game three days ago?
Vote NS?

@Flubber - well, you better do something really exciting to reinvigorate the Mneumonic wagon, or why not move to the NS wagon?

[Thor665]

I would hardpush a ZZZX wagon if people would get on board.

People would, you're really pushing that late though.

@thor does your anti hero read still stands?

Dunno - now that he's been prodded I kind of am hoping that Marquis will say something about it.

Varsoon - probably town.

prodded should've declared my weekend v/la sorry

Do that like once more and Marquis will help me lynch you, apparently.

i'm not that optimistic about this notty wagon

the composition is really meh and there's nothing that i've seen out of the ordinary for town ns so far.

Does this actually advance the case on me?

What is the case on me currently?
Is it still my evil walls?
Maybe you should push people and remind them how much I wall as scum

[Thor665]

Apologies all, had a last minute thing pop up on me.

@Mod - V/LA till sometime Friday-ish April 4th

p. 79

[Thor665]

can you be kind enough to explain what you mean?

They don't feel like an organic thought process, interspersed with fluff

esp the thor scumread and then your retraction
then the random anti is bad vote

Agree with this.

thor i feel is more likely scum than either of them, but i am not very courageous and if i'm wrong i'd feel really bad about lynching him while he's VLA, which is putting me in a predicament. cull useless players who *might* be scum of push lynch on a rather strong player who i'd rather have around if i happen to be wrong

Dude, serious? You're calling me scum, but because I took a V/LA I'm somehow safe from you?
And you're calling *ME* mechanical?

it's not that thor is a "pissant", but that might be a reason why i'm not as afraid of the small chance of mislynching him as some other people seem to be. it's more that he's been constantly ignoring the multiple good points we made about anti being town in order to sit on his static read for a stubborn mislynch when the wagon was there, and constantly tried to excuse his misunderstandings as people left the wagon with too-simple "oh i missed that"s and whatever. then when the anti wagon didn't have the support he expected, he left it and joined the notty wagon without explanation. it's scum, not town, positioning movement and definitely not what i expect from thor!town. i highly doubt he would have acted the way he did around the anti wagon + evidence for town!anti unless he was scum who wanted that strategic mislynch.

and thor is a good scum player, of course it's hard to make a case on him because he's going to be so much better at deflecting and articulating his arguments. and our vig is out of shots sooo. the thing i'm worried most about now is that notty is that kind of successful groupthink scum-supported counterwagon and this is the closest we'll get to getting rid of thor!scum

I was going to write a more sarcastic version of Gork's post, but she did it neater.
It is a weird burden of proficiency on Thor's good town game paired with a belief that I'm "good" scum but apparently still crappy enough to do a sloppy move that...well, even when you describe it. its a sloppy and lazy move and also presupposes a couple things that I don't think anyone should have belief I do as scum.
Like, seriously - your case is I'd "ignore" evidence (even when, for my money, you *were* explaining it bad and Anti *did* lie about it - so really it's that I saw the evidence after being willing to talk it over and learn something while overlooking Anti's atrocious lurk and lie play (which is continuing, note)...oooh, SCUMMY OF ME!
And then, you act like an NS vote without a case is remotely something I wouldn't do?
Seriously?
How do you get that idea - it is *exactly* what I do as town. Like, if I was scum, I'd do that exact thing because it's what I do as town, that's how town it is.
What the hell are you believing as my town game here, exactly?

Muffin reads wuss.
Scum is already on my wagon (hi NS!).
NS and ZZZX remain good lynches.
The Fuzzy wagon is suspicious for still being alive - I'd also be willing to lynch any of those scumballs voting it.

[Thor665]

Oh, and I skipped those missed pages from my v/la - so if anything exciting happened there, clue me in.

[Thor665]

Dude, serious? You're calling me scum, but because I took a V/LA I'm somehow safe from you?

no?

that's not what i said at all, actually

i said i wanted to interact with you and get a feel for where you're currently at with the game but i can't because you're VLA. it wasn't an accusation, just a statement of fact

it has nothing to do with why i think you're scum, it was just me mentioning my disappointment in the timing of your VLA

{ay attention to the comma - I was well aware you were not calling me scum based off the v/la and said as much.
It doesn't change your weird statement.

(1) you're pushing the idea that sakura was buddying to you really hard when she wasn't. she mentioned liking one of your points in one of her posts... and that's it.

That is absolutely not "it" why do you think it is? Have you read her?

you didn't follow up on her at all after asking a few generic questions about her "buddying" and you didn't pressure her at all if you thought it was suspicious.

I don't actually find buddying that suspicious until after a scum flip - then it becomes highly relevant.

(2) a lot of your stances have felt pretty smurfing smurf. i call it mechanical because i see you pushing lines of logic but i don't see you analysing motivation at all, really. a prime example would be the push on my slot today. it's based completely on the idea that you think... scum would outright lie about facts that can be checked. when others (including elusive) suggested it could be a problem of interpretation, you dismissed it as dodging and asked them to prove it.

That's bull-hooey. What was lied about was, after a push was made, the logic was defended as being sound by claiming an alternate interpretation of the word 'case'.
Yes, I *do* think scum can be caught by lying about something that can be verified when the lie is based off claiming a concept and then failing to be able to show whyt they thought the concept was scummy. That is the beginning and end of the verification and it's not black and white - but it does show scummy thought process and is the *definition* of analysis of motivation.

Define this mechanical gak some more?

i thought your varsoon push was

maybe

understandable from a town-you perspective, since i could theoretically see you not liking the fact he lied about his claim maybe

Then you don't know me or my play at all.

the idea that antihero was scum with sakura because she buddied you, not him! that read like a pile of smurf to me. it's simplistic thinking

I think it's the opposite of simplistic - even your exclamation point shows this. You're aware this is a non-standard tell, and then you all it simplistic?
Defend this belief.

i know i haven't played with you as town for like a bajillion years but i don't remember you being this robotic in the way you approached the game.

Am I robotic as scum?
Because this push is empty if the answer isn't 'yes'.

btw thor,

could you remind me why you're voting noddy?

Biggest alternate wagon, lurk, and no town read.

because as far as i can tell, it's because he was active lurking or something like that

Yes.

what do you think of his interactions with sakura? or his play in general outside of the recent inactivity?

Meaningless unless you're arguing there's only one scum faction.
Empty and not pro-town but assuredly pro-survival.

i mean, he could be scum, i suppose, but i don't even really know why you're voting him except that he's useless (which applies to a few players in this game). why is noddy the special scum one?

More votes on him.

also could you describe who you're referring to here specifically (unless you mean you think all of the scum are out to get him?) and why they're "scumballs" (other than voting a wagon you seem to disagree with)?

I find him to be towning hard, and therefore suspect anyone who doesn't have that read.
I don't understand what further evidence I need of them being scumballs than voting a wagon I find it scummy to be voting.

btw thor, one thing i'm interested in, you can feel free to not answer this question if you don't think it's relevant, but i'll ask anyway

do you think there are any defining differences in your town and scum games?

If there were I would have already covered them up.
Any differences that exist I, by definition, must be unaware of.
Apparently it's "being mechanical" ?

We need a lynch, even though I don't quite see the logic in this wagon:

VOTE: THOR

[Thor665]

By the way, the wagon on me is so terrible that I would love anyone to consider if they can put into words what the current case on me is?

Yeah...that's called an obvious scum driven wagon.

[Thor665]

yeah i realised that i misread your question to me after i posted but i just never went back to correct it because, tbh, it was a Smurf question anyway

It's a perfectly valid question - you are selling this Thor scum scenario, but somehow justifying a v/la as a reason not to push harder because you need to "interact" with me - but your questions to me are just listings of how I'm scum, *without* questions to me - so...what, your interaction need was to tell me that you think I'm scummy?
Nah - that doesn't make sense.

what i was paying special attention to, actually, was who sakura called town and why. she never called you town that i can remember. or if she did it was a passing mention, at best. i don't consider that buddying.

Sure?
It's not what I was calling buddying either.

you keep referencing on point where sakura said she agreed with something you wrote as buddying that somehow points to you being town. i call bullSmurf. though feel free to go back and show me other evidence of sakura buddying you (i can't really do the opposite because i can't show you something i'm pretty sure doesn't exist).

If I show you this - what do I get out of it?
I understand you're asking me to do the work - but let's say I show other evidence of Sakura trying to get nice-nice with me; what is your reaction if I do?
Will you admit you lied?
Will you admit you read th egame poorly and readjust reads?
What's my offered gain for giving you links?

the reason i call it mechanical is you're acting like elusive was a scumsmurf out to get you because she "lied" about something, but the way you were doing this felt like a robotic "lynch all liars" scenario rather than considering possible misunderstandings, misinterpretations, etc.

I talked with her extensively about why she said what she said and asked her repeatedly why she thought it was scummy.
Do you feel she answered?
Also - how is that *not* seeking motivation prior to calling her scummy over it.
I literally feel like I did the opposite of what you're saying I did.

i'm calling your push on antihero simplistic because it was. there was no depth to it, it's essentially an accusation that scum are not going to read their buddy's posts (i don't think this is true), and sakura didn't read anti's post therefore he's scum (even if the first point was true, there's nothing to suggest scum read every town player's post).

So you're saying scum Sakura decided to skim town Anti?
With their history?
Eh...yeah, maybe, seems unlikely though - and thus my point holds water.

i was more asking which players you were specifically referring to. are all three of them scum?

I have explicitly called all three of them scummy for various reasons prior to this - I find the wagon scummy in its entirety. I will agree that is unlikely, but it bears mention because the wagon is also inherently scummy in addition to individual issues with each player.

Yeah...that's called an obvious scum driven wagon

who is the scum driving your wagon?

can i get a picture of what your current reads are?

The current wagon on me is this;

Antihero, zMuffinMan, pisskop, Marquis, Varsoon, notscience, copper223

I have outright stated the following;

Antihero

,

zMuffinMan

, pisskop,

Marquis, Varsoon

,

notscience

, copper223

I am not particularly decided on Copper or pisskop. I could see either as scum or town at this point, eh...probably lean more scum on pisskop and town on Copper at the moment, but neither read is particularly brilliant nor strong.

Which reads on the wagon are vague to you?

Meaningless unless you're arguing there's only one scum faction.
Empty and not pro-town but assuredly pro-survival.

btw, on this, unless every time you've mentioned sakura "buddying" you as a reason to think you're town you've been doing it facetiously, there's a certain dissonance in this statement.

I have used it repeatedly to claim that I was not scum with Sakura.
I do believe that logic easily holds out, and makes sense, regardless of whether you believe there are 1, 2, or 3+ scum factions.
Feel free to point out where I *ever* claimed it showed more than that.
If not maybe I'll use this easily disprovable lie (that you are demanding I defend...instead of "easily" fact checking it) as a scumtell on you.

[Thor665]

Still not so sold on Antihero town btw.

His continued lurk will eventually make Marquis re-assess the read.
Till then I marginally buy the activity tell as honest.

[Thor665]

i think i'm taking a break from mafia after my current games are done

VOTE: thor

So I'm 'other scum' now, yes?
Or I was the scum counterwagon to my scumbuddy (or he was to me - I actually forget which of us got bigger first)?

[Thor665]

Vote: ZZZX

PEdit: @Gork - I am well aware that the wagon on me was garbage that lacked a case - I said as much. That said, when it shows up for round deux - I'd like to see how the garbage has matured in aroma.

[Thor665]

@Gork - I am well aware that the wagon on Fuzzy was garbage that lacked a case - I said as much

[Thor665]

@Marquis - if you think one kill tonight damns me due to a claimed JK - how do you justify the lack of a kill Night 1 with Varsoon claiming the second one?

How's the read on Anti going?

Town due to meta if not play - as it has been since yesterday. Why, what should be changing it?

What makes you think the people on my wagon were scum as opposed to being wrong or tjnneling me for some reason.

Did you pay attention to that wagon at all?
It was toxic *and* sideballing, and was called as such multiple times and people still derped around with it...while a now flipped scum was being pushed to lynch.
Probably two of the people voting you are innocent buffoons - but I find it unlikely for that to hold for all three.

[Thor665]

could you give me a full reads list?

or a list of people you think are town and a list of people you think are not so town?

I literally just gave you a color coded wagon analysis a few days ago. I also literally stated my reads on an entire secondary wagon - that's like 10 reads that I offered in specific ansers to *you* within the week.
Is there someone in particular you feel lost on as to my reads on them? I feel like you're asking me repetitive busy work questions.
Where is this going?
You and I both know I'm offering reads and offering them to you - so why are you acting like I'm not or that, somehow, I'm not sharing reads, or that I'm hedging reads or something? What do you even think I'm doing that causes this question to be asked?

Thor is not clear just cause you JKed him, if that's what you did, I am surprised by this cause the way NS refused to scumread Thor made me think they were likely the same alignment.

NS did refuse to scumread me...while voting me.

Town due to meta if not play - as it has been since yesterday. Why, what should be changing it?

His continued lurk will eventually make Marquis re-assess the read.

I thought this looked like you weren't really over the scumread on him entirely.

i am not over his play entirely.
Also I was making fun of Marquis a bit in there too, I'll admit.

Still to me everything points to a multiball ....

well, there's the fact that the scum faction that HAS flipped doesn't have a specific name

'Mafia' is a potentially specific name.

if i had to guess mafia probably knows who the sk is

What makes you conclude that?
Really, both concepts;

1. There is an SK
2. Mafia know who it is

I don't follow either.

[Thor665]

we lynching thor?

Not without you voting me - for starters.

'mkay, i'll walk ya'll through it

Why is the Oka kill SK hunting Mafia and not Mafia hunting SK?

like it's not even that i'm just tunneling this time; his recent posts have all been super shallow/noncommittal to any read in depth and self-absorbed too

Yes, because someone becomes "self-absorbed" based on alignment in game.
Are you even listening to yourself? If you're town you are pushing this wagon for dumb reasoning and are half-blind.
I think you are town.

you've given three town reads (the people on your wagon)

I've given more than that, Fuzzy and Gork immediately spring to mind.

six potential scum reads (the other people on your wagon + the people on the fuzzy wagon

So I'm calling over a third of the game scum in a situation where we have 3 dead scum - shockingly poor play on my part, really.

and no read on the rest of the game[/qote]
Agreed.

am i to take it that this means you have town reads on every other player in the game?

No - you should think i have town reads on the players I've claimed town reads on.

no scum reads elsewhere?

This is correct. I wasn't aware I came off as wimpy when declaring my scum reads - in fact some people are complaining about my fervor in presenting some of them while attacking others of them.

clarify

I still don't understand your issue and you didn't address it.
You seem to be whining that I have reads - but not reads on a mound of lurksacks...well...yeah...okay...so?

also you gave those reads

yesterday

unless your reads are so static that nothing changes between day phases with a scum flip, i don't see how what i asked is unreasonable at all

What do you think happened to change my opinions if anything?
That a scum read flipped as scum and a nullish 'not Sakura partner' read flipped as town?
I fail to see why - did I miss something?

[Thor665]

in what world does scum intentionally lie about what actually happened in a game, when it can be easily fact-checked?

Because they are more interested in pushing a lynch that looks good on the surface than analyzing it.
The only town defense for doing the same is "she wasn't reading gak and didn't want to admit to it" which...yeah, is a plausible story, but is *still* well worth attacking someone over it to try to get a read on the slot over it.

Why are you totally against that concept?

[Thor665]

why are you voting ZZZX actually?

Because I think he's scum.

he wasnt on your wagon or the fuzzy wagon

This is true.

[Thor665]

Well, actually he was on my wagon for a time - he unvoted later.

[Thor665]

in what world does scum intentionally lie about what actually happened in a game, when it can be easily fact-checked?

Because they are more interested in pushing a lynch that looks good on the surface than analyzing it.
The only town defense for doing the same is "she wasn't reading gak and didn't want to admit to it" which...yeah, is a plausible story, but is *still* well worth attacking someone over it to try to get a read on the slot over it.

Why are you totally against that concept?

For the record, her defense ended up amounting to "talking about someone when I ask you about them shows scum intent".
So...

[Thor665]

so you do have scum reads outside of the people you listed yesterday, yet it's unreasonable for me to ask for your reads on the entire game

yeah

that makes perfect sense

You were unaware of my vote at the point you asked the question?

[Thor665]

So you find my admission of not following up on an easily fact checkable thing to be scummy because it suggests that it slipped my mind for a reason or that I didn't process properly because I'm scuma nd am lying?

I agree - it looks wonky.
Proceed as you will.

By the way - what are your thoughts on my push on Elusive again"
Does that push make sense to you now, or still no?
Clarify?

[Thor665]

And my actual answer is: I'm scumhunting ZZZX - I would put him as null currently, but I'd like to run him up and shake the tree to see what happens, and maybe lynch him for lulz.

[Thor665]

The only town defense for doing the same is "she wasn't reading gak and didn't want to admit to it" which...yeah, is a plausible story, but is *still* well worth attacking someone over it to try to get a read on the slot over it.

nah what i'm suggesting is what happened. she used poor wording to describe the point she was making and you attacked her over the wording rather than the actual content

a brief history of thor v elusive, act 1

elusive: here is a list of all the places you were heavily focusing on choof in the early stages of the game
thor: yeah but you said i made a bad "case"!! prove it!
elusive: this is what i meant by that - specifically that your early-game play was heavily focused on choof and questioning people about choof
thor: show me evidence of this
elusive: i have no idea what more you're asking of me
thor: dodge

Her list of places that I was heavily focused on choof included multiple posts where she had asked me about choof and I had answered her.
Was that also a Poor wording" error on her part?

[Thor665]

no, that's common sense since of your first 4 posts in the game, the only one that wasn't focused on choof was the vote on varsoon. the fact that she asked you about it is because of this

Oh, I agree, if we're only talking my first 4 posts I could easily believe they are focused on choof...he was my RVS...I actually kind of feel that's normal, and that in basically 100% of my games I'm focused on a single player within my first 4 posts...actually, I don't even see how that's a thing.
The *point* is that she later said I was too focused on Choof to the point of being "terrible" aka "scummy".
This included citing as "too focused on choof" an extended questioning of Cooper (albeit about choof - but I presume you are not blind enough to call that focused on choof...or are you calling my copper questiong choof focus?)
And also answering her (many) questions about choof and my choof based questioning of copper.

Neither of those *REMOTELY* shows over focus on choof. My actual posts to choof or about choof without being asked about him - are actually rather minimal, and I also fairly early decided he was a town read and dropped pressure on him altogether even while still having conversations about him due to how others had interacted with him.

Are you disagreeing with this?
If so - why?
If not - why is there an issue with me having an issue with Elusive claiming the opposite?

then you used copper's read specifically on choof to question him, which was another point she brought up

I will agree I did this and will agree she noted it as an issue.

it is not unreasonable for her to think that you spent an abnormal amount of time focused on choof rather than the rest of the game

I think i is, and even if it isn't - I further question why she thinks it's scummy - especially since she helped create the situation that she then called scummy. She was 50% of it, frankly - and then cited me as the scummy one for doing it. That's not town thinking.

oh, also, in addition to this, you directly called choof her scum buddy

so i mean... when you say it included multiple posts she asked about choof, what exactly were you expecting?

Yes, I did.

Oh, look, even when she made the case she *admitted* to my raised issue with the case;

Thor, much of your conversation particularly with me revolves around choof.

So, Elusive agrees with me that a lot of my choof conversation was prompted by her.
If she sees it - why don't you?

@Thor
What's your point re NS voting you? His whole posting screams: I am doing this just because it's either you or me, which can still easily be indicative of a teammate.

It can also easily be not indicative of a teammate.
If voting someone with no particular reasons is a scumtell now - then your point on NS towards me extends to a lot of other players in this game.
So is it actually a valid tell - or just noise?

@Anti - so just a gut call on that then? I liked a lot of the rest of your analysis, but it's predicated on, (presuming all other conclusions are correct) at best, a coin flip. Do you have anything to support your value call on the coin flip?

[Thor665]

That's a coin flip - because it's not deductive, it's...whatever the appropriate word for non-evidence based deduction is.

And is being done in a situation where we also have a claimed JOAT JK and also no flipped town defensive roles - which I'll admit shies me away from your theory somewhat. I will agree there's a decent chance that scum of some stripe have concerns of lack of kills though. I think that seems likely - but I also think that info only really starts helping our scumhunting info once we see a few more night phases and get a better feel for how many kills are theoretically actually happening.

[Thor665]

I think your case makes sense.
Slightly predicated on single groupscum theory though.

[Thor665]

@Thor
I find NS's defence strange and one possible explaination for not wanting to push his CW beyond a token vote for what he said was survival, and I believe he was being honest there, is that you are teammates. Your reply that he was voting you while not scumreading you doesn't address that issue in any way so that if anything is noise. Together with your Sakura interactions and your early game reads on choof, Elusive and myself, all players I know/think are town, you are more likely scum than not.

I really disagree with the way you draw scum connections.

@Thor, what exactly is the case on ZZZX/is there some kind of reservation you might have for MD being scum?

I don't have a case on ZZZX outside of the way his votes popped between Anti and I - it looked bad, I'd like to run him up.

In better words: why do you find ZZZX to be more scummy than MD such that 'it might not be groupscum' is the best argument you have for not wanting to sheep a case there? Gimme words on that.

I feel like the note that the case is hinged on a Sakura connection is exactly the sort of reason to stop and not rush the case. Other people clearly disagree with me, so now you can have their reactions and mine to consider later.

[Thor665]

i don't know everything that was going on in elusive's head, but i do not see an issue with elusive suggesting a lot of your early play was focused on choof. yes, she was asking you questions about it but that is

because

you were focusing on choof...

This is bullshit.

[Thor665]

it's not, though. look, her first questions to you came as a result of you focusing on choof in 3 out of your first 4 posts. can we agree on that point?

Sure - but are you claiming that's a valid issue?

can we agree that her thoughts on your copper stuff were on the basis of you questioning copper specifically about the choof read?

Yes - can we agree that me focusing on Copper's vote has nothing to actually do with choof and everything to do with Copper?

can we agree that you specifically called her scum with choof very early on?

Define 'early on'.

And can we agree that she asked me about choof so much that *she* was focused on choof - and then she called it scummy I was, suggesting lack of logic?

whatever. i don't care

No, you do care - and this matters.

[Thor665]

Can drop it.
If I'm motivated I'll take a look later.
Only thing that really needs to happen is MD's next post.
If it's a lame "uhhhh guys im stil not playing" post and not a catchup/a replaceout then we should murder the Smurf out of him.

Let's add ZZZX to that - because he's doing the exact same thing.

[Thor665]

Click on the spoiler - I added some thoughts;

Thor, much of your conversation particularly with me revolves around choof.

Here it's straight from your ISO, I stopped at a point because I got bored but this is more then enough to work off. Oh and if you need me to bold all the times choof shows up let me know:

Spoiler:

Or...I guess you could avoid that wagon and keep doing that.

Why do you townread Varsoon? Or is it that you scumread Elusive, or scumread some people voting fro Varsoon (though then I would presume you'd vote them...?)

Your vote doesn't seem to make much sense.
Clarify?

@Sakura - good posting. Let's just random speed lynch Varsooon and see what happens.

This is me asking choof a question.
1 point

do you love me now, sakura?

6 is a good number, why would you ruin it
why are you doing this
why did you let it habben
ids habbending
y dozen u stob dis

Varsoon is at L-3, aren't you going to tell me why you townread him yet?

This is me not talking to choof or to anyone about choof.
1 point
1 - not talking about choof at all point

So based on mod comments varsoon must be fake claiming? Therefor either scummy or scummy? Always weirded out when things seem.to.easy.

I'll remember that after any cop claims?
Weird.
Also, why aren't you weighing in on the back and forth between Copper and I as regards the playstyle of your bud as scum?

Thor, why would a player choose to jump on a flash wagon? Does not that signify sheep mentality and more suspicious are those that jump on such wagons.

There are many reasons someone may choose not to hop on a flashwagon - that is why I asked him for his reasons. I actually do not find either sheep or lone wolves particularly inherently scummy until alignment flips start happening, and care more about forcing people to make such stands so I can read the attitudes later.
Where I'm lost is why you're asking me "why would you want to know his reasons?"
That question literally sounds like it is based on the concept that *not* understanding motivation is a core component of scumhunting. Like...you're asking me *my* reasons, why then is it unusual to you that I'd ask him for his reasons?
Where is this line of questioning going?
Seriously?

Yeah, okay, fine,

I'm not hated.

I lied about it.

I panicked when I was being run up for lynch and wanted to do something that would maybe ensure that I'd get to live at least until close-to-lylo, so it was the first negative utility thing I thought of.
Ya caught me.
I'm not scum, though. I'm just a Smurfing idiot.

[snip]

Now that

that

embarrassment is out of the way, I want you guys to be really real with me;
you gonna lynch my ass now that I've come clean?
you gonna vote for me now that I've straight up told you the truth?
we gonna have another goddamn repeat of HipHop Mafia or Advance Wars, here?

Yes, I am going to vote you now that you've told the "truth".
For starters, I'd like to force a claim from you.
As secondary I do think you still look scummy.
As tertiary....yeah, weird reaction from you - it deserves some suspicion and probably your death.
I'm unfamiliar with your meta references - feel free to describe your habit of lying under pressure as town to me though, I am willing to listen.
Also, do you still hold the same town/scum opinions of those on your wagon? I remember you calling Anti scummy...apparently for *correctly* figuring out you were a liar...why did you do that?

You are ignoring one part of the argument, that I don't think he is the kind to mirror himself.

How do you divine this conclusion?

Why did you select one part of the answer to criticize? Are you impying the read is made up?

Yes, i am pretty sure that is what I'm implying which is why I'm asking you to defend the methods you used to create the answer.
Why...is that a problem for some reason?

This is me responding to her questions and stances about choof.
1 point
1 - not talking about choof at all point
1 - answering questions point

@Gorkinton
No empty threat mate, the way you are approaching the game with those cookie cutter scumreads, you are scum because you post a smile, clearly buddying up, you are scum because you answered the question, clearly overexplaining, you are scum because you scumread me back and I am an easy lynch because I was being mean, clearly scum looking for an easy lynch, without any kind of analysis or thought about what the actual content of the posts is and what other different (and I think well explained) motivations I had is useless and dangerous town to leave around or scum looking for superficially scummy BS, either way you are not going to help me win.

@Gork

Cooper sucks. Sure.
You suck worse for the misrep - I'm on his side on that point.

This is me not talking to choof or to anyone about choof.
1 point
2 - not talking about choof at all point
1 - answering questions point

Thor, who is my bud?

Choof.

This is me answering a direct question about a scumread on Elusive wherein choof happens to be the answer (which makes sense considering her obvious defense of choof at this stage paired with my scumread).
1 point
2 - not talking about choof at all point
2 - answering questions point

PS. Copper is town because he looked up choof's one complete game on here and saw that he was town and accurately described his meta. So copper reads town to me unless Many Extreme Things.

I mean, and you say this - so I thought you might have an opinion on Copper's take on how scum Choof would play.
It's sort of a discussion, y'know?

This is me scumhunting Copper. Yes, it's about a read I think is bad - but the point is that I think Copper made up the read (something he, basically, admitted to later)
1 point
3 - not talking about choof at all point
2 - answering questions point

I think that if Copper assumed that choof was a newbie with only one game he might make the conclusion that it would be difficult for him to change his meta drastically.

Well, Copper is now going with 'wild assumption' as his reason for said presumption. So I suppose you are theory right on that.
That said - you seemed to indicate awareness of Choof's playstyle - have you seen his scumgame? If so, do you agree with Copper's take on it?

"Heavyweights" - anyone not a newbie. Like anyone who flashwagoned Varsoon before he fake claimed a really stupid fake claim lol.

Heavyweights like Boonskies, Sakura, SilverWolf, and pisskop then?
Or Copper...who you seem to be aware that I'm digging at?
Heavyweights like that?
I think Anti is the only one on there relatively close to me in length of term here.
Does this call make sense to you? It doesn't make sense to me.

Hint: there's a reason why so many players made comments about me and my playstyle. As far as longevity and rep on site, I am probably heavier than a large percentage of the players in this game. Basically by definition I will be attacking players considered 'weaker' than me and it would actually be strange of me to try to avoid doing so and deleterious to the effectiveness of my town game.

I do not see why you seem focused on Choof and then by correlation Copper.

I don't think I am focused on Choof - I had one interaction with him, and then he replaced out before I had made, like, my fourth post of the game, am I missing something there?
I agree I am focused on Copper because I think his read about Choof reads as fake - but that's a long ways from being focused on Choof. Frankly, the only reason I'm still discussing the slot is because Copper is dodgy and you keep asking me about my thoughts as regards Choof.
Want to prove me wrong here?
You sound like you're reading a different game than I am playing. Why is that?

What do I now though, I only have one completed game on me.

Aw, snap, sorry, it's scummy of me to question you then.

Theoretically you spotted a call to make, and applied some sort of judgement to it - describe that process.

The process is the same for every read I make, I try to profile a player based on what he is showing, does he play to win or to have fun, is he calculating or impulsive, does he get lynched often, how good is his knowledge of theory... and then I decide if the mindset he is showing is more likely to be his town mindset or his scum mindset.

And you decided it based on the idea that he wouldn't play like his town mindset, correct?
What led to that conclusion?
Is it just "aggressiveness"? Was that it? You mentioned the aggressiveness earlier.

What should I know going in?

There was a flash wagon on Varsoon.
He claimed Hated.
Anti lead the charge in calling the claim bull-hooey.
Varsoon called him scum for it and voted him.
Varsoon then clarified that the claim *was* bull-hooey and he had lied.
After having it pointed out, he moved his vote off Anti and claimed him as a town read.
I called that scummy.
People wandered around and screamed at each other.

also varsoon is still

um

:/

"not being lynched."
Yes, I noticed.
Why don't you vote him - it would be good.

Doublevoter is verifiable, for one.
Hated/loved is meh. I really doubt he is actually hated

His claim is absolutely confirmable. Run him up to L-1.

I don't buy the b/s about how he magically "loses" the modifier in LyLo.

I agree.
You should vote him.

This mention is me answering her accusation that I am focused on Choof.
1 point
3 - not talking about choof at all point
3 - answering questions point

I think that if Copper assumed that choof was a newbie with only one game he might make the conclusion that it would be difficult for him to change his meta drastically.

Well, Copper is now going with 'wild assumption' as his reason for said presumption. So I suppose you are theory right on that.
That said - you seemed to indicate awareness of Choof's playstyle - have you seen his scumgame? If so, do you agree with Copper's take on it?

"Heavyweights" - anyone not a newbie. Like anyone who flashwagoned Varsoon before he fake claimed a really stupid fake claim lol.

Heavyweights like Boonskies, Sakura, SilverWolf, and pisskop then?
Or Copper...who you seem to be aware that I'm digging at?
Heavyweights like that?
I think Anti is the only one on there relatively close to me in length of term here.
Does this call make sense to you? It doesn't make sense to me.

Hint: there's a reason why so many players made comments about me and my playstyle. As far as longevity and rep on site, I am probably heavier than a large percentage of the players in this game. Basically by definition I will be attacking players considered 'weaker' than me and it would actually be strange of me to try to avoid doing so and deleterious to the effectiveness of my town game.

I do not see why you seem focused on Choof and then by correlation Copper.

I don't think I am focused on Choof - I had one interaction with him, and then he replaced out before I had made, like, my fourth post of the game, am I missing something there?
I agree I am focused on Copper because I think his read about Choof reads as fake - but that's a long ways from being focused on Choof. Frankly, the only reason I'm still discussing the slot is because Copper is dodgy and you keep asking me about my thoughts as regards Choof.
Want to prove me wrong here?
You sound like you're reading a different game than I am playing. Why is that?

What do I now though, I only have one completed game on me.

Aw, snap, sorry, it's scummy of me to question you then.

Theoretically you spotted a call to make, and applied some sort of judgement to it - describe that process.

The process is the same for every read I make, I try to profile a player based on what he is showing, does he play to win or to have fun, is he calculating or impulsive, does he get lynched often, how good is his knowledge of theory... and then I decide if the mindset he is showing is more likely to be his town mindset or his scum mindset.

And you decided it based on the idea that he wouldn't play like his town mindset, correct?
What led to that conclusion?
Is it just "aggressiveness"? Was that it? You mentioned the aggressiveness earlier.

What should I know going in?

There was a flash wagon on Varsoon.
He claimed Hated.
Anti lead the charge in calling the claim bull-hooey.
Varsoon called him scum for it and voted him.
Varsoon then clarified that the claim *was* bull-hooey and he had lied.
After having it pointed out, he moved his vote off Anti and claimed him as a town read.
I called that scummy.
People wandered around and screamed at each other.

also varsoon is still

um

:/

"not being lynched."
Yes, I noticed.
Why don't you vote him - it would be good.

Doublevoter is verifiable, for one.
Hated/loved is meh. I really doubt he is actually hated

His claim is absolutely confirmable. Run him up to L-1.

I don't buy the b/s about how he magically "loses" the modifier in LyLo.

I agree.
You should vote him.

This mention is her re-quoting the same post as above
1 point
3 - not talking about choof at all point
3 - answering questions point

So maybe instead of calling me a liar, get your facts straight cupcake.

And that was her case.

And you want me to buy that as "legit"

[Thor665]

I actually did 47 wrong - so it changes the final tally to

2 point
2 - not talking about choof at all point
3 - answering questions point

[Thor665]

Sure - but are you claiming that's a valid issue?

that was her entire issue with you

at least before you started questioning copper on the basis of the choof read

WAS IT A VALID ISSUE?

[Thor665]

I'm not debating what her bad/scummy case was.
What I'm debating is you having an issue with me calling it bad/scummy.

[Thor665]

Muffin - of your first 4 posts, 3 are about NS.
Is this a valid case to attack you over?

[Thor665]

I even have the advantage of calling your posts defensive and him flipped scum - valid case?

[Thor665]

actually, one last thing because 2558 and 2559 are borderline retarded:

whether or not it's a valid case, i wouldn't suggest you're necessarily a scummy liar liar pants on fire for thinking there could be a point there

because, you know... i'm not a Smurfing moron

(but that's just me)

good night

No, back up there big dawg.

You're the one defending her case as valid.

Are we now repositioning to my response was too intense?
Just let me know - the angle of debate is now not that her case was good, but that my attack on it was overwrought - correct?

[Thor665]

Or i her case both good and my attack too intense?

[Thor665]

i'm just not going to bother responding, i guess

It's because you can see the walls closing in.

[Thor665]

but Let me ask you a question. Do you actually think I am scum (outside of lurking)? because it changes if its a pure lurking thing or an actual scum read.

I got that you dont like when my vote moved between you and anti. Right?

You listed my issue with you paired with your lurk - do you understand my stance now?

[Thor665]

It never is for Boon - I really wish he'd stop joining so many games. He can't handle it.