A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!
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Minimum Goon
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In post 15, Tyene Sand wrote:I'm not Tammy, Minimum, I'm Tierce. Tammy = Lyanna.
We'll see.
Choosing should be policy lynch central since I can easily imagine choosing scum and giving that scumbag a strongman vig being worse for the town than taking out 2 townies that would otherwise get mislynched or screw up in some other way.-
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Minimum
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In post 10, Starbuck wrote:Vote: MoIfor loving all the same fandoms that I do.
I'm a little surprised at the quick Chooses right out the gate before you can even get a bead on reads.
What's the difference between a choose before you can get any reads and a vote before you can get any reads?
@Edd: because a scum vig will choose someone who is either obviously town, a likely power role, or the biggest threat to them...and unlike a normal nightkill, there's no chance of interfering with it. As long as the player we choose is someone the scum would probably not want to nightkill, we still come out ahead to choosing scum. (Why not just lynch or vig the obvscum target we'd have chosen instead?)
But since the ideal choose target should be both someone everyone wants dead and town, both a good policy lynch and also likely to make a good vig choice, the whole thing is something of a paradox.
Or alternately, just choose MagnaofIllusion.-
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Benmage, you should probably learn to tell me and CES apart soon, or this game will get confusing for you. I'm pretty sure I know why he voted her even though he hasn't told me, though.
Why do you find that vote particularly interesting?
In post 10, Starbuck wrote:Vote: MoIfor loving all the same fandoms that I do.
I'm a little surprised at the quick Chooses right out the gate before you can even get a bead on reads.
After how long you've been looking forward to this game, you're totally okay with dying on D1? Not going to argue with the meanies ganging up on you?
(Likewise for Benmage, except strike the meanies part.)-
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Minimum Goon
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In post 38, MagnaofIllusion wrote:In post 37, Minimum wrote:After how long you've been looking forward to this game, you're totally okay with dying on D1? Not going to argue with the meanies ganging up on you?
(Likewise for Benmage, except strike the meanies part.)
VOTE: Minimum
Why so worried?
It's because I'm terrified that if you're chosen today, you'll vig scum and weaken my team. Because I'm incapable of moving my own vote off you right now, so all I can do is discourage other people (such as yourself) from placing one.
Or, you know, because your self-vote is odd and I want to know your motivations behind placing it.-
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Minimum
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In post 116, StefanB wrote:Minimum: You wanted to use chosing as PL, so why chose MOI, definitly not a PL, where I came from? (That was before the selfvote, so why????)
Let's just say we disagree on that and move on.
In post 120, Plessiezarus wrote:Have an eye (or four) on Minimum (this is mostly/entirely CES posting at the moment, yes?) as well.
Entirely me.
In post 123, Lyanna Stark wrote:Who made the first post in this game?
Mina.
In post 125, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Yet when I actually agree with him that I’m a good choice and Chose myself suddenly he 180s
Thinking you're a good choice doesn't mean expecting you to agree with me on that (and in fact I'm fairly sure you disagree with most of my reasoning).
In post 131, Lyanna Stark wrote:Also, I just had a flash of what their qt would look like as they decided the vig shot, if town, and was sent into gigglefits.
<-- is totes superdecisive
Unvote, vote: Salamence20-
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Minimum Goon
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In post 181, Benmage wrote:Why did you vote Starbuck?
Bandwagonning, duh.-
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Starbuck looked townish, so I figured I'd slap a third vote on Snowstorm instead.Benmage wrote:
*peer*... so why here CES?
Ignore the flavour, snowstorm. (Also, it's implied the mission to kill Jon Snow will fail anyway.)-
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In post 232, MagnaofIllusion wrote:To set the record straight Stephan – CES does not like my playstyle and thus I’m a viable Policylynch for him simply because I’m to ‘wordy’.
I genuinely am clueless as to how to respond to this level of wrongness in any terms but these. Mindbogglingly wrong.
In post 255, Plessiezarus wrote:In particular, Zar doesn't like Minimum's #21, which he reads as an attempt to sound helpful while giving bad advice (the sort of people you'd policy lynch aren't really the sort of people to trust with a free vig-kill, so the idea to make the choosing a policy-lynch seems backwards)
Correct vigging policy is to shoot someone considered to be suspicious so that at worst you take away one of the town's mislynches - this doesn't require much in the way of competency.
In post 278, Salamence20 wrote:Where did your vote come from, I don't remember you mentioning me in any of your posts.
Same reason as molla, basically.-
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Minimum Goon
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Why did you ask me that question if you're just going to drop it after, Tammy?
In post 289, Lyanna Stark wrote:Do you ever explain your Sala scum read? Before you say ISO...I did. I haven't found anything damning or non-Sala like.
You should try ISOing him again and reading more slowly this time (noting e.g. his use of italics).-
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In post 291, Lyanna Stark wrote:Do you mean who was the first post? Because the answer was enough for me. And that meant that most likely, your entrance into the game was your Starbuck vote, which would be a null tell as the Starbuck wagon was equal with the MoI wagon if my count is right. If the entrance to the game was you and not Mina (I'm assuming I'm talking to CES right now) then that would be weird, right? Because the vote was for BBMolla when the biggest wagon at the time was MoI.
Voting for MoI while also choosing him seemed a bit silly. Did the fact that I was directly contradicting the previous line not tip you off that my answer wasn't entirely serious?-
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In post 295, Lyanna Stark wrote:CES? you're giving me a headache...don't give me a headache. I took your answer as the first person to post as Mina serious, but your answer that all of your responses were you as a joke. I took into account the fact that whoever posted first chose MoI and he was the largest wagon into account, but you? Also asked why I was suiciding in your first post and seemed to not believe tierce when she cleared up the alts. Both of those things lent belief to that being Mina last night. I still don't understand the suicide question.
But talk more!
The idea was it would be perceived as a package deal since the joke clearly relied on me immediately contradicting myself. Doesn't work as well as I imagined in hindsight. How did the Tierce interaction suggest it was Mina?
Right, talking. Salamence's #56 really is implausibly over-the-top and him hounding people over why they're suspicious of him is weird; neither of those match what I saw of him in the last game (in which I correctly pegged him as town). I'm not really sure why people think snowstorm is town based on bringing up something weird considering the reasons for the early suspicion against him and the early-game nature of what he posted.
Tyene Sand wrote:I find arguing with -mum to be tedious and avoidable whenever possible.
You're mean.-
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In post 303, Lyanna Stark wrote:In hindsight probably nothing. I'm not sure why I read "we'll see" as particularly Mina-ish, but I did. What were you meaning then?
Are you saying you have a scum read on snowstorm then? If you do, why aren't you pushing it? (I don't have any read on him as he hasn't given me enough to go on yet so would be interested in why you do.)
"We'll see" just meant pretty much what it says, i.e. "We'll find out if you really aren't Tammy in due time."
I do have a weak scum read on snow but I haven't really seen much reason to push it.-
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Minimum Goon
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In post 311, Lyanna Stark wrote:Okay. So, you thought that Tierce and I were playing let's switch and see who notices?
But, wait, you haven't seen much reason to push it or mention it before this. The only interaction you had with him was to tell him not to get too caught up in the flavor. Why didn't you try to interact with him to get a read on him?
It was more me being generically contrarian. I totally would've been jokingly implying that if I had thought of it though.
I'm lazy and I don't particularly think it's a big deal?-
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I knew I was forgetting something: that meta is definitely going to be misleading, Zar.
P-edit:
MagnaofIllusion wrote:Last post of the Night - Minimum is bascially playing the "Ignore all the votes on me and reasons for them and they will go away as other people derp in thread". I'm not about to let that happen given their scumminess.I'm not about to let that happen given their scumminess.
I'm definitely ignoring you as much as possible.-
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This is Mina, and I've skimmed the thread on my phone during my breaks, but didn't have enough time to post before. But before I catch up more thoroughly, here's an answer to a few points and questions directed at usin which I am the model of reasonable and composed and pretend not to hate you all as much as I do:
1) The only posts I've written this game were this, this, and this. (Fun fact, though, Tammy--I was actually going to make my first post a vote for BBmolla, since we'd agreed to choose MagnaofIllusion, but CES ninja'd me after I spoke to him about it on AIM.)
Feysal, which posts did you think were me, out of curiosity?
2) I don't think we've written anything that couldn't have been faked as scum up to this point, so I don't object to the fact that people suspect us. (It's my own fault to an extent for being lazy and not posting before I went to bed last night.) However, let it be said that if you suspect me because "asking MoI why he self-Chose was soooo scummy!" (not because you thought it was a waste of a question, but because MoI was so obviously towwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn for daring to self-Choose with no explanation), then you aredumb.
To amend something CES said before, town actually has more of a motivation to choose themselves than to self-vote--Starbuck's self-Choose looked really genuine, for example. However, 1) scum under suspicion have the same motivation to self-Choose, and 2) MoI's self-Choose came out of nowhere. I saw several possible motivations for it as scumoras town, a major one being that it was an obvious attempt to gain town cred (I know he's self-voted as a SK before as a clumsy AtE). (I found Benmage's self-Choose less suspicious since "I'll singlehandedly take out the scum!" arrogance is in character for him, but didn't see the harm in asking him while I was at it.) And you definitely get no town credwhatsoeverby self-Choosing, and then immediately going, "You're scum for asking why I did it, because I'm obviously confirmed town for self-Choosing."
And I know MagnaofIllusion tends to use selective reading comprehension, but the sarcasm in my response was obviously not "cheeky scumbag"...if I was "afraid" that his choosing himself meant I , I could have fucking moved my Choose off him.
3) Regfan, I assume you were just trying to find a concrete reason to explain a gut read, but how many town reads did you expect us to announce on page two? I had maybe a couple of really weak ones at the point which didn't overlap with CES's, anyway (for example, I thought Edd's entrance looked like overeager town; CES countered that Ser-Arthur is always overeager), but why would I even bother sharing them before they solidified? It would completely undermine any pressure someone might have placed on them, and tell people what the "right" opinions to have are.
I could write a perfunctory big post of reads that would probably would be 5% more accurate than one generated by random.org, but I'll be honest--it would pretty much be a "Look, guys, I really am town! Here, look at these independent thoughts I have. No, really. I'm town. Could you unvote me, now?Please?" post. This early in the game, I think questions are more useful than answers.
4) When the game has been open twenty-four hours, it's too early to base Choose or suggested vig targets based on who's not getting lynched today. (For example, I'd wager there's a very low chance that Minimum will actually get lynched todayalthough it'll involve me failing my French test on Thursday--I start off a bit awkward sometimes, but my alignment generally shines through once I get into the game.)
5) Benmage, I don't have a particularly high opinion of my scumhunting, but I'd trust myself with a vig a lot more than I'd trust you. Speaking of which, you never explained why you were so interested in Minimum's vote for Starbuck (and then for Snow Storm).-
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Salamence, do you believe that unexplained votes are scummy? Why are you so interested in BBmolla's and our votes on you--particularly when BBmolla has since unvoted and changed his mind?
CES's reasons when I asked were literally:
-You look scummy.
-You looked better in the game he'd played with you before.
If you want my reasons for being fine with the vote on you, it's because you don't look as town as most of the people in this thread, you seem very concerned with your appearance, you haven't voiced many independent or insightful thoughts, your voting has been too safe (for example, sheeping MoI's vote on us in the same post that you choose MoI--the leading Choose wagon at the time--felt very dissonant), and your argument against Feysal sheepy. (Upon an ISO, your one big catch-up post that made BBmolla trust you was decent in isolation, but the kind of content that's easy to fake, so I'm not letting you off the hook yet.)
Out of curiosity, how could BBmolla's vote be an OMGUS when it came before you voted/attacked him?-
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EBWOP: oh, I just noticed that CES explained it here. Considering you're voting us, Salamence, shouldn't you be paying more attention to our posts?
MoS, thoughts on the rest of Tierce's play, or are you only voting for her based on that one post? (For the record, there's one thing I hate about that Tierce post, but you, first.)
(Tammy, I'm pretty sure Shadow was arguing that I would eventually look town given time, not that he had a town read on me because of that quote.)-
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In post 349, Pandora wrote:How does SS know about Mina and CES, he's been around three days but he's implied he played with Mina before? ("The idea I have of Mina's town play is that I usually agree with her")
Snowstorm is one of the Westeros regulars.
Regfan, you really should have a town read on me by now. Don't be uncool.-
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On my phone and can only check in intermittently for the next couple of days, but just a few questions:
Tierce, why did you vote to Choose us in the same post that you said we were a bad lynch? Yes, we'd be a better Choose than lynch, but you haven't mentioned a single negative thing about our slot until we became the leading lynch.
BBmolla, what changed from saying you can't read CES so he's a bad D1 lynch to jumping on the wagon?
Feysal, do you think that Tierce disagreeing on proper Choose theory is an alignment tell, and why? Also, thoughts on Starbuck's VT claim and self-Choose? I'm not particularly interested in whether you scum-slipped, but I feel like you've been attacking people for differences in Mafia theory instead of for behaviour that's scum-motivated.
Stefan...yes, I agreed with CES that MagnaofIllusion deserved our choose. I think it will end very, very badly if we continue this. Just accept that it's a null tell and move on.-
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In post 378, Regfan wrote:CES, I don't find anything in your posts even slightly town, convince me I'm wrong?
I'm being far too lazy to be scum.
In post 393, Salamence20 wrote:And again, the point is, that CES and I haven't even played a full game together, just Lylo, so I don't think that is enough for CES to get suspicious.
Am I wrong?
Yes. Why is it impossible for me to quickly grasp some salient details of your playstyle (there are quite a few things I probably can't realistically know, but that's not the same)?
In post 394, hasdgfas wrote:The meta argument does absolutely nothing for me without you elaborating. I could say "My meta on people posting the way Edd does makes me think he's scum" and it means absolutely nothing. I can't give weight to you saying that his meta resembles his town play because of that.
You should learn to sheep. It's a very useful skill.
Stefan, you're being silly if you think I would make something like that up. And it should be fairly obvious that for me to explain why I think someone's a good policy lynch, I'm going to have to be somewhat negative? It's not going to consist of constructive criticism of MoI's playstyle.-
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In post 436, Lyanna Stark wrote:PFFT. Reckoner was too lazy to be scum in Scummies too...wait. Also, are you going to say you're random vote hopping as scum in the WoT game was you being active and not lazy?
Yeah, Reck is pretty uncool (it should be fairly obvious this tell isn't supposed to apply to everyone?). And the WoT thing was me being overwhelmed, not lazy.-
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(I don't think it's necessary for me to sign this post.)
Mastermind of Sin, I explained what bothered me about Tierce already. Look up my answer yourself. Since I only mentioned one issue, you can enlighten us on the others (as can Cow, while he's at it). However, that was pretty much theonlything that bothered me about Tierce--the rest of her play felt very protown. I can buy her explanation, so you voting and choosing her solely because Cow said he didn't like that post looks lazy and disingenuous.
Mastermind of Sin wrote:I thought this was pretty obvious. Then again, not that surprising that Tammy can't understand basic implications when she's trying really hard to paint someone as scummy.
Are you saying you have a scum read on Tammy? Do you believe that one quote in which she misinterpreted the word overwhelmed (which was a characterization of his play in acompletely different game) is even remotely alignment-relevant?
StefanB, I never said that I was obvtownnow. (CES might have, but I think 25% of what he posts in a Mafia game is for his own amusement. <_<) I'm only confident that I won't be lynched today because I've been wagoned many times as town on D1 for making an awkward first post, and the wagonalways, without exception, completely dies out by the end of the day.
(By the way, Tammy, you could at least have the courtesy to pretend that you're so paranoid of me because I'm a master of manipulation or something, rather than "Mina is easy to read, but her posts up to now have still been alignment-null." )
MagnaofIllusion, are you setting me up to go, "Yes, sheeping is scummy!" only for you to go, "Haha! You scummy scumbag,CESjust admitted to having sheeped Regfan!" (Actually, I don't remember if he'd admitted to it in the thread, but anyway.) It seems like multiple players in this game are bold-facedly admitting to not reading the thread and just sheeping whatever case the first player who looks town makes (which I find not so much scummy as antitown, although my other half would disagree with me). I think something like ametaread is worth sheeping if multiple people say, "Yes, this player is acting in character with his town self," because if you've never witnessed it. But yes, consistently voting for whichever players are getting heat at the moment is something of a scumtell, because there's a common breed of scumbag who's always looking for an anonymous place to park his vote.
As for your theory (which actually didn't occur to me at the time)...all right, let's check.Salamence, what was your motivation was for 1) voting Minimum, and 2) Choosing MagnaofIllusion in your first post of the game? While you're at it, you also didn't answer most of the questions I asked here.
MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Well for someone who accuses me of ‘selective reading’ this is pretty interesting interpretation of my response to you. Please by all means link to ANY post I’ve made this game that indicates directly that I have claimed to be Confirmed Town.
Fine, I just ISO'd you, and that was hyperbole--you never claimed to be confirmed town. Youdidimply that my questioning why you self-Chose was suspect, as though I should have realized you were town. For example, here and here.
Believe it or not, I asked you why you self-Chosebecause I wanted to know why you self-Chose. I wasn't convinced it was a scumtell by any means. It might have been an emo "everyone hates me!" self-Choose. It might have been reaction-fishing. It might have been an attempt to diffuse the momentum against you by doing something to win town cred. I thought it seemed out of character given how much you'd have looked forward to this game (and also given that I'd expect you to be too proud to acquiesce to people calling you a "policy lynch"), so I pressed you on it. How exactly could an explanation from you hurt?
More coming, but I'm saving it for another post. (Also, I've still got no studying done whatsoever for my French test this evening.)-
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(p-edit: Regfan, hold your horses. I've been working on a post with just that, but wanted to do some studying first. That said, I suspect that my question to Mastermind of Sin will be a lot more useful (well, tome, anyway) than yet another wall full of my wishy-washy and probably incorrect thoughts.)
Thanks, Tammy! Except I just looked at some sample questions, and I'm completely fucked--especially since I might need an 80% (depending on which department guidelines are lying to me). Why the fuck do I need to know what "arrhes" means to get by in a math program?
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Anyway, where I'm at:
I don't have a problem with all the attention being focused on the three S's (Salamence20, Snow_Storm, and to a lesser extent Shadow). Already explained my problems withSalamence. Although I generally findSnow_Stormhard to read (and was previously lukewarm on him), but Tammyanna's points on him (that he has no scum reads, and that his vote on Benmage is super-dissonant) are very strong.
I buyShadow's stance on me, and it makes me sad to turn on him when he's the only one white-knighting me (I could appreciate some buddying right now), but I find Shadow's early play here more similar to AFFC (where he was contrarian and petty in a conscious effort to mimic his town meta) than to ASoS and GvE (where he got tetchy at points, but was full of adorable protown eagerness). My scumread of him waned somewhat when he discussed his beliefs about D1 theory, but those could be genuine regardless of alignment. I also don't remember him being a hardline anti-D1 contributor before. That said, I'm willing to give him some time to see if he delivers on his promise to contribute later. Shadow's alignment will become apparent with time.
(As an aside, Regfan, this is why I don't think total transparency is always ideal--I read your post defending Shadow, and to some extent, it influenced me to go, "Oh, gee, maybe Shadow isn't that scummy after all." Imagine if you'd caught me making a bad frame case on Shadow or something.)
Completely disagree with Regfan saying thatsword_of_omenssaying "WE kill scum" is a town tell. His opening post and the reads he espoused in it were pretty bad, although I need more from him.
bvoigt, you're right--that catch-up postdidsuck, for a number of reasons (andnotbecause it was short). Already complained aboutMastermind of Sin's Tierce vote; I hate that he consistently uses his laziness as a shield in game after game. What makes me lean scum on him is that when he has contributed this game, he chooses completely tangential points to focus on (like the terrible Tammy thing).redFFcould easily be scum, I guess. (CES chose him in part on policy and in part for a lack of scumhunting.)
Tammy Starkis capital-T town.Regfanand to a lesser extentTierce Sandlook very town too.Pandorais probtown pending me changing my mind on a reread, because I've sort of skimmed their posts.
Plessiezarusis leaning town ("leaning" mostly because Pless hasn't crossed the threshold into "town without a doubt" like he has in the games I've seen him in before); I find Zar tends to look more...oily as scum, and I buy the glimpses into their hydra discussions.Staegis probably town simply because he's not obvscum and hopping mindlessly from wagon to wagon--he's actually putting some thought into his votes and stances. When I ISO'dMagnaofIllusion, I was surprised to find that he looked a lot more town than I thought he would.
I'm not willing to confidently callBBmollatown (his play is sloppy--his vote and sudden unvote for us when we called him on it was weird--and I think he's capable of faking reaction tests as scum), but I did get town vibes from his reaction to Snow_Storm and Salamence.
LikedEdd's earlier posts, didn't like his attack on Starbuck, and have kind of skimmed over his later posts, so it's tempting to take the Westeros crew's word that he's playing like town Arthur (I don't think I'm as familiar with Ser-Arthur's meta as everyone else is). I don't think I can readHyperionat all, because he's usually a lynchbait player. I know he was obviously scummy and wishy-washy and flagrantly lurked when he was scum and I replaced him on Westeros. I need to ISO both of them.
I don't rememberCowbeing this overconfident and prone to exaggeration when I've seen him play before, but the bravado has an obvious town motivation even if it's faked. More likely town than scum, but I'm not as certain of it as everyone else is (maybe because I dislike most of his reads, and he acts as though he's convinced that every single player he suspects within the first few pages is obvious confirmed scum).Plumis totally null for me. It would shock me if there were only 0-1 scum on my wagon, so I could see Plum being competent scum, I guess.
Will get back to you onBenmage, since CES seems confident in his ability to read him. His initial drunken posting was terrible, but he's shown glimpses of Bossy Wannabe Leader Town Benmage with his lists of town and scum. I'm feeling a lot better aboutFeysalafter that big post he wrote than I did before.
Have a weak town read onStefanBand a super-weak one onJalbased mostly on the tone of some of their posts.
Oh, andStarbuckis probably town. I think that's it for the people who have actuallyposted.-
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Eh, Plum, to be honest, I'm not following your train of thought, but it seems as though you're overrating just how important the self-Choose was to me. The game had just started. I was reacting to anything recent that happened, and I thought MoI's self-Choose was off (for reasons I've explained, over and over andoveragain). Then I left the thread for the next twenty-four hours.
I've only continued discussing the self-Choose because multiple people keep bringing it up and implying that it's absurd that I could entertain the notion that MoI's self-Choose wasn't pure of heart.
I mean...it's kind of hard to have an opinion on something as small as that stronger than "he's neither obvscum nor obvtown for it." It's not completely absurd that he wanted to have a N1 vig so his death would be meaningful (or that he's innocent even if it was a calculated attempt to milk it for town cred, because that's totally in character for him).
(Also, the realization that I didn't find MoI that suspicious in context only came after all the self-Choose discussion.)
Nacho-Plum are no longer null, though.
Now I'm going to bed.-
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Nah, Pless. People can draw their own conclusions on Plum.
FWIW, sword_of_omens actually impressed me as a player when I first played with him--he caught me in an embarrassing scum slip. No clue if he's just become lazier in general, though.
Also, multiple people have been declaring Cow town (in part because of his vote on me, though :eyeroll:).
Since his stance isn't implausible, I'm willing to give Shadow some time to develop actual opinions on this game.
Edd, give an example of a post where it feels like they're "sniping from the sidelines."-
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Whee, I'm seeingWickedtonight! (It's pretty easy to guess whether this is Mina or CES based on who would be excited by this and who wouldn't be caught dead in the theatre.) So just a couple of quick points before I go:
1) Um...guys? Why are youChoosingShadow? He's either 1) scum, or 2) seriously going to shoot one of Cow/MoI based on "them having fooled him before." He should not be let anywhere near a gun.
(Actually, I missed that post before--as well as the fact that his vote is on MoIonlybecause he's misread MoI before, and thinks that's legitimate at this point in the game. I haven't liked his interactions with Plumamma on this page. Also, it just occurred to me Regfan's reasons for trusting him were terrible; they were literally, "Shadow can't be scum, because scum never argue hard against someone's lynch!" Changed my mind. I'll give Shadowa few more RL daysto look like Innocent Shadow--even if he thinks no one will listen to his precious cases, that doesn't stop him from making them.)
2) Since people keep bugging me about it...my "null" read was changed to slight town, because although I found the argument itself nitpicky, her thought process and her reference to discussions with Nacho looked real. (I find I usually dislike Plum's cases--not so much that she suspects the wrong people, just that her reasons for suspecting whom she does always seem alien to me). But I wasn't confident on it, and didn't really want to give her a gold star immediately after she'd posted words. Just calling her town for posting a fairly generic post would be making her feel comfortable for no reason. And I don't know, I was kind of hoping it might provoke some reaction from the slot.
By the way, who has made the hydra's most recent posts? (p-edit: nevermind, Jal asked first.)
3) mockingjaye, you've mentioned quite a few things you dislike that people have said, but do you have any concrete reads? Also, why are you not voting for or choosing anyone? (I feel like most of your points against our slot are not tied to alignment--for example, there is no contradiction whatsoever between saying "Salamence's post doesn't clear him" and "Nothing we've posted, so therefore I don't particularly object to being suspected.") For the record, I liked Starbuck's self-Choose mostly just because the tone of her posts felt like a beleaguered townie under pressure who thought she was sacrificing herself for the good of the town. You didn't get that sense from her posts? MoI just self-Chose with no explanation. All I'll say is that my understanding of Benmage's and MoI's characters is different from yours; I think Benmage's arrogance manifests itself very differently from MoI's, and I could conceivably see MoI feeling persecuted and having a deflated opinion of his Mafia abilities right now.
4) MoS:
In post 358, Minimum wrote: Tierce, why did you vote to Choose us in the same post that you said we were a bad lynch? Yes, we'd be a better Choose than lynch, but you haven't mentioned a single negative thing about our slot until we became the leading lynch.
I thought it was implicit that I'd found it scummy.-
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In post 554, Tyene Sand wrote:Please explain this bit, little wolf.
They're fairly impulsive and they're unlikely to have done the things the tell implies they weren't doing as scum anyway.-
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In post 599, greenknight wrote:Checking in.
I read MoI as town and agree with his early posts regarding Minimum. Same with Lyanna and the latest page of Tierce/MoS. I think the attacks on Starbuck for thinking that Choosing town is correct policy are weak, and there's likely opportunistic scum in there. I'll catch up on everything in the middle later.
Vote: Minimum
Choose: Feysal
I take it your scum game has got much worse since AFFC.
Aside from my first kneejerk "this vote and justification thereof is terrible at this point of the game; also, OMGUS" reaction, I'm curious to know what exactly you agree with Lyanna on re: MoS/Tierce. Are they town/scum/____?
When did you start reading the game, by the way?-
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In post 636, Shinori wrote:So after ISO'ing minimum, I'll state that I think he's most likely scum or lazy ass town. His first part of the game doesn't help at all. Starbucks vote wasn't that good, neither was the snowstorm vote that was then swapped in his next post to salamence who he appears to have been on all game. After he voted on salamence his posts seem small and not too helpful and he doesn't do much till about post #323 where mina specifically posts and then again at #446 and #455 where I guess he started to feel pressured by the votes to do something. I don't like the majority of his responses to players though.
What out of all of this is supposed to tell you something about my alignment?-
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In post 628, greenknight wrote:In post 621, Plessiezarus wrote: Greenknight's entry post is also rather odd. Jumping on two somewhat-popular wagons without catching up on the thread, at this point in the day? Can't see the town-motivation for that.
That's simple enough... It's a 28p game which means a lot of inertia in terms of moving wagons to the point of being a serious lynch threat. Since my predecessor wasn't actually voting and catching up will take a while, it's correct play to place initial votes quickly imo.
So congratulations. Your protown bandwagoning vote (based on possibly the worst reason anyone before Shinori had in the game for suspecting us: a post arguing that 1) "it's inconsistent for Minimum to choose MoI...and then ask MoIwhyhe would choose...because Mina should have been so happy that MoI was supporting the same wagon as her that she shouldn't have questioned that his motivations came out of nowhere", and 2) "Minimum's sarcasm flew miles over my head") has just guaranteed we'll be lynched today. (Well, a roleclaim could hypothetically save us, but I'm not dumb enough to softclaim either VT or useful/confirmable PR this early by my reaction.) Because there's no other serious option, and people are slowly trickling in and going. "Well, we're halfway through the day and we need to consolidate. I haven't actually caught up with the thread, but I see a large block of people have parked their votes on Minimum, and sure, they haven't proven that they're town. I know MagnaofIllusion is a brilliant scumhunter who would never lead the town astray, so I'm just going to be protown and sheep him."
Completely independent of whether you're town or scum (because I'm really not in the right frame of mind to think objectively about this), I hate you right now. (Not you as aperson, just "player slot currently titled greenknight.")
(Also, Shinori...do you realize that all the short posts were written by CES and the long ones by me? And that every post CES has written in every single one of his games has been short, while almost every post I've written in all of my games has been long?)
This post was initially about five times bitchier and more self-pitying than this, but I edited half of it out because it's unfair to get CES in trouble because of my temper tantrum.-
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Oh, wait, before I go to bed, I should wave my magic wand and somehow prove that I'm town by posting reads or a quote wall or just something generic and reasonable that would give someone warm and fuzzy vibes coming from someone like Regfan. Except I apparently ooze scummy pheromones from my pores to every single person in the game. And people probably won't even read this post, anyway, because they're too busy catching up--or if they read it, they'll vote me because I asked a question that's logically inconsistent with my stance on questions according to post #345. And I don't give a shit that I'm being petty and probably making myself look bad right now.
The only thing that's really changed since my last big reads post that no one actually read is that I'm more confident in Plum's Your Mamma being town, and Snow_Storm has some genuine-feeling posts in response to the wagon on him (for example, this and http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p4286917). Before going to bed, my other half still felt he was an okay lynch due to PoE and Snow's lack of scum reads, but upon a closer look, I see multiple flashes of town intent in his ISO. I also just ISO'd Hyperion. I didn't realize he'd had only two posts of content; I think I might have confused some of his posts with Dolorous Edd's. So far, I'm null on him. (He chose pretty random points to comment on, but he looked kind of lost and confused when it came to BBmolla's slip--it didn't seem like he was deliberately misrepping him, just that the gambit flew over his head.) I think I'd need to check some of his other games for a sense of whether that type of catch-up post is in character for him. mockingjaye would have earned a town read from me if she'd ever followed up on that big post of hers with conclusions; now I'm reserving judgment on her.
I find it really hard to determine if Shinori and greenknight's votes on me are scummy or just terrible and nonsensical from an outside PoV...or terrible and nonsensical only frommyPoV. I wish I could daycop MoS to clear up his alignment, because he's maddening to read; his interactions with Tierce made me want to strangle him (particularly, "lol, who ISOs someone before casting a vote?" Um...doesn't...everyonedo that?), except I'm not as convinced as Tierce is that his vote error is a damning scumtell.
By the way, I'd bet about $10 thatregardless of his alignment, MagnaofIllusion doesn't actually care if we're scum and is upping the rhetoric because he would fucking love to get us lynched on D1. Oh, except CES told me not to interact with him at all or so much as make an offhand disparaging remark about him that would goad him into interacting with us, didn't he? Oops.
Also, Cow, do you honestly believe this:
In post 205, hasdgfas wrote:Regfan, how do you possibly see Edd as town here?
In post 609, hasdgfas wrote:In post 603, Dolorous Edd wrote:I feel like I’m being interrogated here. What were your questions again, inquisitor?
Scum scum scum. Scummy scum scum.
Is it fair for me to characterize your reads as static this game? When you said you'd caught two scum on like page 3, and then said Feysal was the third scum, did you exaggerate it for rhetorical effect, yes or no? While we're at it, why did you find this post of Tierce's bad? What's your current read on Tierce?
Also, after some thought, I realized I'd actually like an explanation for this (mainly since Regfan has gone quiet, so I probably shouldn't just thoughtlessly write him off as obvtown):
The few scum reads are incredibly weak right now. Something feels off about Minimum but I can't pin-point what exactly, if I had to specify it's probably a lack of town reads stated by them or reads at all though willing to give them timeto convince me I'm just mad at Mina for picking CES over me to hydra with..
You posted this on Page 4 of the game. Our most recent post at that point was on pagetwo. Did you seriously expect us to state town reads at that point?
Dolorous Edd, to do Snow_Storm a favour, I'll remind you that he's asked you about twenty times what your read was on me.
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I think my reads are probably shittier than they usually are, because I'm too inclined to feel positively about people (like bvoigt and MoS) whose play looks scummy but who are defending us (either directly, or by chainsawing people who attack us). So it's hard to untangle "people who are playing toward a scum wincon" from "people I want to (metaphorically) die in a fire." It's a bad sign when I'm getting paranoid of my town reads for no reason whatsoever other than "They're voting me/don't like me/kind of looked at me funny."-
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In post 678, greenknight wrote:Well, CES was the one that picked up the majority of the votes.
No?
greenknight wrote:I don't like their interaction with MoI on page 2 - instead of just asking him "why are you choosing yourself" there's a bunch of sarcasm and a joke scum claim which I got bad vibes from. Looked to me as attempting to muddy the waters.
Highly inaccurate. We did ask, then MoI countered with "Why so worried?" and only then did we drop a line of sarcasm but even that was accompanied by a serious response. There really is no way you can read our posts as "attempting to muddy the waters."-
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In post 681, Salamence20 wrote:So I believe the first thing was why is Feysal the best choice, and I am not sure what to say? What makes a good choice for anyone to be a vig? I know no one wants me to be chosen, and personally I don't feel that MoS and Minimum should not be choosen because both of them I don't think have been paying enough attention to make a good shot (I know for sure I wouldn't be a good choice as well). Feysal's mention of multiball still stings, but it is nothing I would be willing to lynch him for, but I believe Feysal could be good enough to shoot, or maybe he is scum. MoI would be my second choice if only he wouldn't shoot me because "lol sala iz total noob".
Why are you considering those 4 and not say, the people you think are scum?
P.S. did you just copy-paste your previous list of reads?-
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In post 691, Plessiezarus wrote:Was your scum-read on Plum a figment of our imagination?
Yes.
#458 is totes townish (although I remember thinking it was bad before, probably a first impression type deal, that, which might go some way to explaining the miscommunication).-
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I almost cried when I hit preview and saw the length of this thing, so I'm breaking this up into two posts so I look less rambly. And this was supposed to be the post where I just went, "Okay, I'm back, and I'll respond to most of you in a bit.," too.
Plessiezarus, Mina didn't actually take a vow of silence, but she still hasn't discovered how to post on mafiascum when she sleeps (which she did when she got home last night). And now, Mina will stop referring to herself in the third person.
I'm not really sure where the confusion is. I called Plum null and possible competent scum, then she posted #458, and then I cryptically call her "no longer null." But I meant she was town, not scum. I explained why in the post you linked to:
2) Since people keep bugging me about it...my "null" read was changed to slight town, because although I found the argument itself nitpicky, her thought process and her reference to discussions with Nacho looked real. (I find I usually dislike Plum's cases--not so much that she suspects the wrong people, just that her reasons for suspecting whom she does always seem alien to me). But I wasn't confident on it, and didn't really want to give her a gold star immediately after she'd posted words. Just calling her town for posting a fairly generic post would be making her feel comfortable for no reason. And I don't know, I was kind of hoping it might provoke some reaction from the slot.
(CES is right that he initially disliked the post, but he never mentioned it in the thread, just discussed it with me on AIM.)
Also, why didn't someone tell me earlier that the most protown thing I could have done this game would have been to stop wasting my time scumhunting rationally and just throw temper tantrums and vicious personal attacks at people? I'd have had a lot more fun. Believe it or not, I'm notalwaysan irrational screaming nutjob, and sometimes I make a conscious effortnotto be so as to make the thread less unpleasant. Off the top of my head, "half" and "five times bitchier" were exaggerations, but what I deleted from that post was 1) a more strongly-worded version of the MoI grudge-lynching accusation, 2) something along of the lines of "Oh, I bet someone is going to vote me for being overdefensive or appealing to emotion for this. And someone else for looking 'too concerned with appearances.' And someone else will go, 'oh, you also faked being angry in the First Law game, so FOS: Minimum," and 3) a couple of variations of "go fuck yourself/ves."
However, right now, I'm feeling a lot more reasonable and composed than I did Saturday night, because now there are people in the game who don't hate me, so I don't particularly feel like being crazy and emotional just for your personal entertainment. Tell MagnaofIllusion to say something like "Minimum is scum because they'd never want to policy-lynch a player who won Best Newbie back in 2011!" if you want moreamusementinsightful glimpses into my alignment.
Actually, I'll probably regret this, but two questions for MoI. Do you believe:
1) Minimum's policy-choosing you right out of the gate, as well as not explaining to peoplewhywe chose you, was a scumtell? You seem to keep implying it was.
2) Tierce is scummy, given that you felt the need to chime in and go, "Oh, don't listen to people telling you Tierce looks town--you should NEVER trust meta on her."-
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In other news, I have the overpowering urge to run off with Tierce and elope with her. Also, thanks forinsultinginteracting with MoI so that I don't have to. (The obvtown thing hit close to home, although it's a mix of that and "You can fake any towntell you're making as scum--but no, you still suck as scum, sorry--so why shouldn't we lynch you?", "These CES posts don't sound anything like town!Mina," "this throwaway question you asked on page two, which is possibly the nullest thing anyone could say, is so scummy that we need no other information than that for us to lynch you, and I'll spam the game with empty meaningless rhetoric pretending it was a meaningful scumtell," and just generic "YOU GUYS AREN'T ALLOWED TO MISLYNCH ME!" rage.)
I'll concede a meta point to Regfan/greenknight/Tammy (not to MoI, as my apology to singer--although I felt bad about it because I knew it'd make her suspect us less--was entirely sincere, because he WAS being a huge dick to her and Sevei for "strategic" reasons) that I'd make a "You all suck!" post as scum and have done so before, just because it'd be so out of character for me to casually accept being a D1 mislynch. Don't clear me based on the fact that I wrote one at all. I don't think my scum rage (genuine or fake) hits the same notes as my town rage, though.
Honestly, what bothers me the least about greenknight is his stance on voting. Yes, it's a convenient vote for scum, but I can believe he thinks it's good theory to put his vote on me now and potentially move it later once the wagon sparks reactions (it did lead to reactions, in all fairness). What worries me more is that he'd devoted a lot of breath to saying no one should unvote me or treat me as town, when his vote on me was apparently just a bandwagon vote based on our page two posts (and he misrepresented those posts badly, as CES already explained--WTF does "muddying the waters" evenmean?). Have you actually started catching up with the game, greenknight? Have you read any of our posts in the middle of the game? Who are your suspects right now?
(I think it's somewhat disingenuous of Tammy to claim that we weren't in serious danger, particularly because of a bunch of people who replaced out AFTER that post and who, if anything, would make the game stagnate more--fine, not GUARANTEED to be lynched, just really, really, really fucking likely to get lynched? I was more worried about the wagon than I was letting on, but thought people would eventually just see I was town--or at least, more likely to be town than scum--and move onto actual substantial cases because the original premise of the wagon was so silly and flimsy.)-
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In post 740, greenknight wrote:Again, to me this read as muddying the waters, not because jokes are inherently anti-town, but because by posting this stuff instead of "hey I didn't like MoI's reponse because of X" it remains it unclear WHY you are choosing MoI (a vote that stays on for 10 or so pages.)
Why would MoI's selfchoose have made us explain why we were choosing MoI?
greenknight wrote:And there is the oddness MoI pointed out in his post later that if you do think MoI is a good Choice in order to get a town vig as opposed to scum (34), then why question his selfvote.
It was a bogus point then and it still is now. Just look at MoI's answer to our question - how is that related to our Choice?-
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In post 754, greenknight wrote:In post 742, Minimum wrote:
Why would MoI's selfchoose have made us explain why we were choosing MoI?
Why would you NOT be transparent about why you were choosing MoI?
That is not an answer to the question. You're the one trying to connect unrelated sarcastic quips to our MoIchoose.
Transparency is not something I'm particularly concerned about anyway, especially when being perfectly transparent is undesirable anyway.
greenknight wrote:MoI's answer is irrelevant. The point is, why would you ask the question in the first place when you apparently think he's a good Choice and he agrees with you?
Because reasons matter in mafia?-
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In post 759, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Something about following up the thought that "Transparency is overrated" with "Reasons matter" is very, very funny. Reasons matter, unless people are asking Minimum for them ...
I generally answer questions put to me.
In post 763, Lyanna Stark wrote:I'm like the Helen of Troy of Westeros.
Your face is a drydock.-
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In post 761, Shinori wrote:If you would read the rest of my iso I also stated that I didn't read anyone except for Shadows ISO and minimum's iso at that time, I just caught a few glances at Snowstorms post and hadn't read everything in context. It's really easy to misjudge a situation when you don't know everything.
So why are you suspicious of snowstorm exactly?-
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Feel very comfortable lynching Salamence20 now.
In post 810, mockingjaye wrote:Back to your response, I have a few questions. You suggested MoI might have made a self-nom because he was feeling emo or that he might be “feeling persecuted and having a deflated opinion of his Mafia abilities right now” Post 553. Why do you think he might have been feeling that way by the time he posted? I have always gotten the impression that MoI doesn’t really care what other people think or don’t think about him and instead just plays the game to win. I can also think of several reasons MoI cast a self-nom when he did, too, and only one of those reasons is scummy. Do you really think that MoI is emo or has a deflated opinion of himself? Do you really think he is the type of player who would try to get rid of you regardless of your respective alignments?
Better question: do you think this is relevant to our alignment?
In post 810, mockingjaye wrote:Also, can you explain why you feel that Starbuck was a “beleaguered townie under pressure who thought she was sacrificing herself for the good of the town” Post 553? I mean, people were asking her questions and she had some votes on her, but I don’t really see how she was that beleaguered and there was no way was she going to be lynched that early on in the game, so no, to answer your question I definitely don’t get the sense that she was sacrificing herself at all.
It wasn't a self-sacrifice in the vein of "oh, I'm getting lynched" but a more pro-active one based on her ideas of what to do with our Choice; if you don't think she was sacrificing herself, then do you think the selfchoose/VTclaim/assorted stuff was just one big scum ploy? It reads very genuine to me.
In post 810, mockingjaye wrote:
I really don't like the way it feels like you try to cut off any criticism regarding your outburst in Post 641 and Post 643, which makes your outbursts seem much less genuine and a lot more manipulative to me.
Isn't 70 posts later a little late to cut off any criticism?-
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In post 888, Shinori wrote:Friend is just new to the site.
He's not new to mafia. Also he hasn't even come to fully read the thread yet so I'm busy trying to catch him up. =|
If need be I could link some games where he has played on another site. He's been playing for a few months easily.
Is he any good at playing scum?
Regfan wrote:Lyanna, I'll admit the fact the hydra-partner of Shinoris isn't 'new' does weaken the town-tell but while he may be nervous and weak as scum I don't think his solution to counter that would be bringing into it another player he has to have hydra-interactions with since they'd have to fake read disagreements ect.
That sounds like an unlikely thought pattern.-
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Compromise onto Salamence, Edd.
In post 930, DCLXVI wrote:I don't view my votes as useless.
Willful denial of reality is never helpful.-
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In post 1032, Benmage wrote:Can you bullet for me the Sala case?
Meta is a big part of it. I've played with him and looked over the Kingdom Hearts game and he really did look town in both those games. There's also just a lack of scumhunting in his posts and recently he's simply gone completely inactive and basically not bothering to play. There are also a few statements that are clearly off (his original Feysalpost and "Hey!!! Someone understands me!!!! About time!!!") of a type that you'd expect Salascum to screw them up.-
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(Making this two posts for readability.)
I actually did have RL things keeping me away from the game on Tuesday and Wednesday, for the record. I let CES know, but I thought it would be silly to announce it in the thread when my slot would still be posting actively.
Currently having(was having when I started writing this post hours ago) an AIM board meeting, because we disagree on a few of our scum reads. I agree with those who find it much easier to clear wide swathes of people than pick out scum this game (and feel like I'm overlookingsomeone). I looked at the player list and realized there were only twelve people I didn't think looked particularly town. Only significant update: I'm now pretty confident that Dolorous Edd is town. (SnowStorm too, but given his claim, I don't get points for that.) I buy mockingjaye's explanation of her approach to the game, and am leaning town on her even if I disagree with the kinds of things she finds scummy.
That said, people keep saying, "Salamence20 is a bad wagon, because Salamence is a VI and therefore an easy lynch." I (Mina) have personally never played with Salamence (although I'll look at KH myself today). But some weaker players are very readable. Sell me on him being town. (Actually, sell CES on him being town, because he's a lot more stubborn when it comes to moving our vote. <_<) Meta defence along the lines of "he played similarly to this in X game" is fine, just not "his meta is to be a VI." (I don't agree with Tyene that his copy-and-pasted suspect list is a towntell, but I'll admit I have a couple of doubts: mostly on the "MoI would vig me if he was Chosen" being so bad it'sgood, my liking the players on bvoigt's wagon a lot more than his, and my impression of Sal's OTT post being closer to Benmage's than to...um...Minimum's.)-
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Benmage:
Overall, I've liked his stream-of-consciousness catch-up posts, and feel like all the indecision, wagon-hopping, and "FMLs" are real--I'm more confident that this is town!Benmage than I did, say, in AFFC. That said...um...I feel like I'm missing something. Is the reason you went from calling us scum to town literally this? That CES is being too lazy to be scum, or that CES called Reck uncool?
hasdgfas
All right. Since I've realized that Edd has become kind of obviously town, you can officially no longer get away with saying, "Yeah, Minimum and Edd are caught scum on page 2. Let's lynch them. *sits on hands for the next thirty pages*"
I understand why you didn't explain your reasons at the time, but now I'd like to know--what gave you your initial scum read on Edd and Minimum? Your vote and Choose haven't changed all game. Why have you neither reconsidered either of these reads nor followed up on them in any way (either by questioning them or by hounding more people onto their wagons)?
Is Shadow your top scum read right now? What are your reasons for having neither voted nor chosen him at any point?
Also, this bugs me (partly gut, partly because I dislike most "Oh, I'll compromise with the majority" posts):
Looking at the vote/Choose counts, the main places to look now are SnowStorm, Salamence, Feysal, greenknight, correct?
Do you believe that the point at which you made this post that no options but those four were viable? Why didn't you suggest another option in this post, or seem remotely perturbed that Minimum, Dolorous Edd, and Shadow weren't among these four?
I'd be interested in hearing your reads on the four players you've mentioned. Really, a glimpse of where you stand (such as an overall reads list) would be good, too.
Regfan:
Spoiler: Because this is too long, and of little interest to someone who isn't Regfan.
Pretty sure I've missed a few questions, so repeat them if you actually want an answer to them.-
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(That said, I'm sorry if my post was what tipped you over into replacing out. I just wanted to see more of your thought process.)
Shadow...are you saying you said we shouldn't lynch Minimum because you had a strong town read on me at that point of the game?
What exactly makes you so confident that I'm town?-
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- Joined: April 16, 2012
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