Open 802: Jungle Oligarchy [Game Over]

[Titus]

VOTE: BM

We have to stop meeting like this.

[Titus]

Also if someone could explain how to actually approach this setup that would be great. I'm guessing wolves first and try to go into good nightless numbers is ideal because there won't be cross kills? But I'm not sure how we actually manage to control that

Mafia don't get a nightkill. They submit three names for wolves to kill.
Wolves must kill from that list.

[Titus]

Titus

, I may shelve you until D2 if you assist me in chastising the flareon.

Who says I live to D2?

[Titus]

Hello old friends and new friends!

I missed you...

VOTE: Taly

[Titus]

Taly is at E minus 1

[Titus]

Setting Taly up at a fake L minus one would clear the way for a fake hammer gambit, which is one of my favorites. I have never seen it done in RVS but I figured why not? Worst thing that happens is more conflict and activity which is good to get us out of RVS.

[Titus]

I had a townread on Kylne until his italics post.

[Titus]

I don't feel your italics actually says anything and is unnecessarily attention seeking.

[Titus]

Do you expect me to have definitive answers by the 3rd page of the game

No. It's more of a tonal thing.

[Titus]

In fact,

VOTE: Kylne

[Titus]

I could be wrong, but based on Death Curse I think that Titus struggles to fake solve as scum like she does when she is town (not that I'm expecting that right now, that's just my overall feeling). I don't feel like I've seen her comment on stuff like tone before?? But like I said lack of experience with her early game etc etc. Also I don't hate voting opposite of Plus right now but I'm getting way too tin foily.

You have a select version of one game. I feel awkward bragging but my scum game is usually better than that. You can kinda read the scum PT to see I had RL in the middle. I did open as obvtown early in my sub in.

Of course that doesn't really mean anything here and arguably makes me easier to miseliminate but I don't want people to make assumptions based on wrong information.

I also do hate RVS.

[Titus]

Point a:

- Delay on vote by Titus is towny.

Point b:

VOTE: Titus

How did you get from Point a to Point b?

Mixed impressions about the slot. I concluded that I would try to determine alignment by engaging with her today.

I'm here now if you are.

[Titus]

i feel like people are ignoring me in this game

I townread this and Marashu.

[Titus]

Some Degree Of Town Read: Clidd,

Marashu

, Klick, Murder

Do NOT do this

His back-off from me was the freaking scummiest thing all game, even beating Titus. The way he unvoted was absolute unadulterated NOOB SCUM FEAR.

He thought "Oh shit, maybe I was a bit over-performative in the way I described my reads, I guess from now on I'll be more vague because he thought that was scummy, whew"

Marashu isn't likely scum. Marashu lurks a fair amount as scum. I could be wrong because even scum have a reason to hunt here, but I strongly don't think he is.

I think you're just attacking everyone against you.

[Titus]

I don't see it as functional. In no game since I joined the site in January I saw a fake hammer catch scum.

And I believe Titus knows that too.

It might be a low odds play, but it had high odds of getting us out of RVS even if it failed.

[Titus]

Some Degree Of Town Read: Clidd,

Marashu

, Klick, Murder

Do NOT do this

His back-off from me was the freaking scummiest thing all game, even beating Titus. The way he unvoted was absolute unadulterated NOOB SCUM FEAR.

He thought "Oh shit, maybe I was a bit over-performative in the way I described my reads, I guess from now on I'll be more vague because he thought that was scummy, whew"

Marashu isn't likely scum. Marashu lurks a fair amount as scum. I could be wrong because even scum have a reason to hunt here, but I strongly don't think he is.

I think you're just attacking everyone against you

.

I've attacked you Marashu uhh maybe Klick a little bit but that was just to rile him up

That's everyone right?

Most everyone hard pushing you yes.

Are you going to respond to my Marashu defense?

[Titus]

Well first you have to decide how I'm still scummy for tone

I've decided that already. Were you intending to ask a different question?

I did catch that. It doesn't change the fact you're pushing everyone who posted against you. It's OMGUS in its simple form.

@Clidd, I take off later. Also, my personality has changed since my separation/divorce. It's been almost a year since it's got final. I'm a much more cooperative player IMO. But events like that change people. So any meta pre-2019 is just outdated.

[Titus]

Klyne, why are you waffling between incomprehensible posting and immensely formatted and cautious posting?

[Titus]

That actually made me laugh

Is this your tone read on me?

Yes. You came across as overly prepared and fake. Like you were trying to hide your true demeanor and thoughts.

[Titus]

You still didn't answer 187.

[Titus]

Again 191 is just incomprehensible like 186

[Titus]

Titus do you still think Klyne is coming off as fake?

I'm trying to sort that out. Right now he's just being insufferable and impossible to engage with, forget about discussing reads to sort him.

Do you think being a jackass sometimes is indicative of scum?

Yes. Sometimes. Depends on context.

[Titus]

Murdercat, what do you think of my reads so far?

[Titus]

Klyne's tone is not pinging me. I'm not good at tone reads so I'm not gunna TR an alt for tone, but I disagree with your read there.

"Marashu isn't likely scum"

Agree with this one, at first I thought the read on me was fake to the point that I actually thought it was a reaction test but the followup sounded genuine.

"I townread this" (in reference to BM)

BM has done nothing which is weird to me because my experience is he likes to lead. But also I SR'd BM as town one time and he yelled at me a lot

But I find your question kind of weird because I had to iso dive you to even see if you had any reads other than Klyne. I don't think you've been very vocal about them.

I'm not because they are weak and I'm commenting on them as I get them. I try to spend as much time relative to my strength unless they are obvious.

[Titus]

What do you think of Taly murder?

[Titus]

What do you think of Taly murder?

My heart says Taly is town posting but he's also one of the players I don't trust myself to read well given recent experience.

What recent experience?

[Titus]

Well first you have to decide how I'm still scummy for tone

I've decided that already. Were you intending to ask a different question?

I did catch that. It doesn't change the fact you're pushing everyone who posted against you. It's OMGUS in its simple form.

@Clidd, I take off later. Also, my personality has changed since my separation/divorce. It's been almost a year since it's got final. I'm a much more cooperative player IMO. But events like that change people. So any meta pre-2019 is just outdated.

Well, sorry for asking. I hope you feel better now.

Don't be sorry for asking. You needed the information to sort me. It's not like you were being a jerk.

What do you think of my wagon?

[Titus]

What do you think of my wagon?

Like this is a weird thing to ask someone on the wagon right? I don't get where these questions are coming from.

I'm using players as a sounding board to get a feel for them.

For instance, I feel like scum from both factions are on my wagon. At first, I thought it was just one faction but the votes on me are from people who have lazy positions at best, which is exactly why I was supposedly voted.

[Titus]

I'm actually pinged by both Klyne and Titus. 50 uses a lot of words to really say nothing, but why would scum be more likely to seek attention than town (53)?

I don't see anything in the Taly wagon tbh.

Taly wagon: blah and unconvincing. PLUS trying to kill you to figure out Titus doesn't really make sense to me, especially as associatives are more confusing because multiball. BM feels like he's trying to get *interesting* things to happen, which isn't hard to imagine coming from someone who's been in a whole lot of RVSs, judging by the 2007 joindate, as any alignment.

Titus wagon: I have thoughts, but I'd like to save them for later

Klyne wagon: He pinged me earlier, but I don't really get this wagon now. Seems like it's only around because of a snipey personality/playstyle and not anything AI

PLUS wagon: Decent wagon, I agree with the votes and would vote here too.

Taly, Murdercat is stuck at hard null for me, sell me on your townlean there

Hi everyone.
VOTE: Titus
The only person I've played with before, on my old account. She was town in one game years ago, so she's obviously going to be scum in this one.

For instance, this is lazy and agreeing with almost every wagon but Kylne.
Very sheepish and not really solving.

[Titus]

Maybe from your pov but same as Taly wagon a scummy vote on you isn't that convincing in this setup.

No. Not a single one. But when a wagon is full of bad/lazy votes, that's when it's a factor.

[Titus]

I'm honestly not a fan of Plusjoy already trying to force associations with his reads this early. It's more of a deterrent to actually calling people town. I get the wagon on him, but I think there's better places to push as its possible that Plus is overconfident town.

[Titus]

ORAM and Klick seem like RVS votes at least when they were made. Klyne seems reasonable to me. Obviously I like my vote. I think there is something to be said about Clidd and maybeee ORAM parking a vote but I think you are overstating your point.

ORAM is indeed parking. He's saying he "has thoughts" but doesn't move his vote or elaborate. Feels like a pretty easy way to sheep consensus. That's all his latest post did anyway.
Klick started out as RVS but then he tried to justify it by saying gut.
Klyne is OMGUS.
Well you're you so I'm not convincing you that your vote is problematic it just seems rather lazy though...
Clidd I like for town but I think he's kinda mindmelding with me and making an effort to sort my alignment.

[Titus]

And that better place is Klyne currently?

Or ORAM yes

[Titus]

Well you're you so I'm not convincing you that your vote is problematic it just seems rather lazy though...

Like ok let's talk about this then. Because of all 5 I think I'm the one most actively engaging you (at least productively).

You weren't at the time of your vote. That's why it was lazy. Now, I feel like this conversation is a bit like pulling teeth to get a reads discussion and a feel for you. It feels rather oppositional.

For instance, I say ORAM is a good place to vote. You basically say yes my point is good but one vote doesn't make it bad. Then you go on to say ORAM is RVS. Kick too. That's despite what their ISOs say. So yes, I feel like your response to me has been a little lazy oppositional than engaging. You want me to be a good lynch, regardless of your alignment.

[Titus]

I feel like you know me well enough to know my vote on you is not an attempt to eliminate you.

I suppose every vote is a vote to eliminate me. I don't do meta except as a starting place because meta is usually garbage.

Good night. I'm off to bed too.

[Titus]

im down to vote just about anyone
tbh without claims and multiball im down to kill just about anyone so we can start getting some actual info. Don't wanna kill jackson, murder, klyne or iamusername I tr them.

You do realize how contradictory this is right?

[Titus]

@Kylne, not afraid of you. However, your posting suggests you're afraid of me. For some reason, you'll believe I'll go far but you want to see if that's good. That reeks to me of being afraid of the kind of impact I will make.

[Titus]

Titus who is the scum

Kylne OWAR and after that latest post Plusjoyed

[Titus]

im down to vote just about anyone
tbh without claims and multiball im down to kill just about anyone so we can start getting some actual info. Don't wanna kill jackson, murder, klyne or iamusername I tr them.

You do realize how contradictory this is right?

[Titus]

In fact, I feel like there's a lot people that are not even really in the game? Like there is a lot of activity around Titus/Klyne so why does the game feel stale right now

Probably because scum don't care.

[Titus]

im down to vote just about anyone
tbh without claims and multiball im down to kill just about anyone so we can start getting some actual info. Don't wanna kill jackson, murder, klyne or iamusername I tr them.

You do realize how contradictory this is right?

Third time I am asking

PlusJOYED

.

[Titus]

VLA until Sunday

[Titus]

Wow. I go VLA and there's a wagon back. Pretty sure at least one of Baltar/Bulge is scum sheeping.

Catching up.

[Titus]

Seeking a replacement for Battle Mage.

BM subbed out only from this game and not others.

[Titus]

Ok, can you summarize your case on Titus?

Sure one sec

Next post

uh so

this post was (eventually) followed by a series of incoherent rants containing nothing that could possibly constitute a case on Titus

and then clidd unvoted Klyne and voted Titus?

is anyone else baffled by this turn of events

Ok. Consider me in your pocket.

[Titus]

Halfway update:

Y'all realize Titus and Marashu are scum together, right? They both defended each other as town with like zero coherent reasoning at all in the very early pages of the game. I'd maybe even guess werewolves since I'd suspect that pair to be highly defense of each other if they have any hope of winning the game.

Klick and Klyne are my strongest townreads based on me vibing with the things they say. Klick early pages and in analysis of the Taly wagon, Klyne more pages 5-9 when he's busting up Marashu & Titus with zero fucks given.

clidd is probably clueless town based on early impressions.

Well isn't this scum looking to derail TRs on me and Marashu.

[Titus]

TOWN
Titus
Marashu
MURDERCAT

lol wtf is this Klick

Indications Klick is town.

[Titus]

Just did my morning catch-up, but a quick question for Taly - I'd like to know your take on ORAM.

Yo, this is whack!

Titus starts pushing ORAM, then here comes Marashu trying to drum up support from other players? Get out of here with that nonsense.

Then the argument you should be making is a Marashu pocket. It's not true but still.

[Titus]

Like, the problem with clidd is that he reads based upon personality rather than play in the game. It reads genuine and towny, but not really a good way to find scum.

Then why are you following him?

[Titus]

Y'all realize Titus and Marashu are scum together, right?

Backing this up with posts, here are my notes where my gut was screaming scum:

Marashu defending for Titus for no reason. 97.

Titus defending for Marashu post. 175.

That's because Marashu is town. Scum!Marashu lurks and prod dodges, which he would do this game too. I caught him the last game we played. This Marashu is a far cry from that and even subbed out.

[Titus]

im down to vote just about anyone
tbh without claims and multiball im down to kill just about anyone so we can start getting some actual info. Don't wanna kill jackson, murder, klyne or iamusername I tr them.

You do realize how contradictory this is right?

Third time I am asking

PlusJOYED

.

This is also a really really weird non-contradiction to latch onto so aggressively. someone said something about titus struggling to produce content as scum yes?

It is flat out a contradiction.

The game as a whole is struggling to create content. The biggest push against me is the fact people disagree with my content.

[Titus]

@username

No, I've been suspicious of Titus for some time and I'm tired of the static game state. Let's see if the wagon resumption causes any productive friction.

I asking for his case about Titus after voting to understand his motivation inside the wagon, considering that I have no other slot at the moment that I feel as strange as Titus and that I really intend to vote.

By extension, I found Klyne's sporadicity in the last few posts kind of not something that I would expect from scum.

That static gamestate is because of scum not wanting to push opposing scum or do anything really. I am making moves and scumhunting, but still wagoned. There's no discussion elsewhere because half the game doesn't want it. There's no incentive to push elsewhere if a wagon that's not on their team develops. When both scum find it, why would they bother? Doubly so when I am not around to defend myself.

[Titus]

Why is Taly talking about ORAM when I replaced him. Also not acknowledging I'm here, but striking up friendly banter with Datisi? Hmm.

Taly might be scum pocketing me, but never scum with Klyne unless they are near 100% sure I am the miselimination.

[Titus]

BM Slot

clidd/MURDERCAT are town
Klick's readlist was astounding but not scum astounding; lean town
You and The Bulge remain relatively null but I'd give you slight favor because I have slight ping on some shit
No idea what the fuck Deas is doing but null-lean scum
iamausername more like iamnotdoinganything HA (null)
I had PlusJOYED as potential scum but now I'm not so sure

You should not have a group of five as all town or favorable in this game. You're just sucking up to whomever votes me.

[Titus]

ORAM (4): Battle Mage, DeasVail, iamausername, The Bulge
Klyne (3): Titus, Taly, clidd
Titus (2): Klyne, MURDERCAT
Taly (1): PlusJOYED
Battle Mage (1): ORAM
Klick (1): Marashu

BM hyprocrite scum now replacing, DV ineffectual ? near replacement, iamausername hypocrite, The Bulge replacement who saw how boring the game was and gave up

Great wagon, full of star players

Odd way to motivate the town Klyne

Let's go Klyne or VP.

[Titus]

I'm weaker on Murdercat and stronger on Datisi town. Otherwise, I can rock with that.

[Titus]

i can help out. VOTE: klyne

titus, what's your thoughts on plusjoyed?

I didn't get warm fuzzies with their reply to their contradiction then leaving. Weak scum. It could just be scum struggling to protect partners.

[Titus]

oh no now i think deas is scum too

is there any town in this goddamn game

Scum have no incentive to bus or crosskill. They have an intention to gang up on people and defend partners at the same time.

Notice how Klyne avoids talking about anyone but me. It's deliberate.

Also, sorry for struggling with this game. I've been rationing my meds. It's been hard to focus.

[Titus]

Mafia have no incentive to place themselves in the killable block.

[Titus]

Mafia have no incentive to place themselves in the killable block.

Sure, but they'd want to put the wolves in there? Or try to get them yeeted during the day...I guess I would consider that a cross kill

Wolves are never killing themselves. Mafia win if they have 1 person alive. They definitely adopt a never bus strategy. Wolves can't afford to bus because they have to yeet a mafia during the day (more clout) or survive to the point where mafia have to put themselves in the kill block.

[Titus]

oh no now i think deas is scum too

is there any town in this goddamn game

Scum have no incentive to bus or crosskill. They have an intention to gang up on people and defend partners at the same time.

Notice how Klyne avoids talking about anyone but me. It's deliberate.

Also, sorry for struggling with this game. I've been rationing my meds. It's been hard to focus.

oh yeah about this

when i said "now i think deas is scum too" i was thinking his way/reasons of pushing klyne are like, Bad

i don't think deas/klyne are in the same pt

and like... if deas *were* scum, not like he'd know whether klyne is town or other scum, no?

This is correct if Deas or anyone is scum. I still townread Deas, but I can't prove he's town.

I also have a problem that most of my townreads happen to agree with me.

[Titus]

i have covid and no energy to make reads someone tell me where to vote

I hope you feel better soon.

[Titus]

comments on my votes/thoughts

Realizing off hand, I can't name a single one of your opinions without opening your iso.

I kinda agree with this. I forgot Taly was in the game, but figured it was my divided focus.

[Titus]

I'll respond to 580 tomorrow in more detail if needed tomorrow but I'll do a short reply now.

1) Baltar should have hesitation about following someone using methods that aren't likely to catch scum from his PoV. I'm using following meaning voting after, not sheeping.

2) Contradictions tell a lot about alignment. If he was town, I would expect some sort of reassessment after being shown the contradiction. Something like maybe I'm not ok with executing anyone. My bet is there's at least one partner in the don't execute list.

3) I believe this was covered but both wagons on me are mostly the same slots. I still feel both sets of scum are on my wagon.

[Titus]

I feel like shaking things up and probably being stupid.

VOTE: Plusjoyed

[Titus]

Klyne and DeasVail were in the hit list mafia gave to the wolves. if either of them were mafia, they would taking a huge risk of being killed by the wolves, knowing that they were already losing a member (galaxii). i do not believe they would take such a risk.

Totally not true, especially in Kylnes's case. Why kill what can be miselimed.

[Titus]

galaxii (7): VP Baltar, Datisi, ben dover123, Klyne, DeasVail, iamausername, clidd
Klyne (2): Titus, Taly
Titus (1): The Bulge
VP Baltar (1): galaxii
Taly (1): PlusJOYED

This looks good for VP and bad for Titus and Taly. Plus and Bulge are also off the wagon, Plus probably looks a bit worse of the two because I think Bulge is also on scum But maybe Titus is a wolf.

As for scum on wagon it's hard to say and really depends on Titus/Klyne. It's hard to know what the motivation was for the wagon at the moment. I might expect other mafia towards the end of the wagon when it became inevitable? But as for wolves they could be anywhere on the wagon, especially if one of the other wagons was on a wolf.

This is very selective analysis. MURDERCAT has been doing that the entire game. Votes peeled off both Kylne and myself. This suggests that if Kylne is scum, he's a wolf. Mafia wouldn't peel off Kylne to vote out their own.

MURDERCAT also doesn't say why the wagons are bad for me and Taly. He just throws out a boilerplate guess that's username's thoughts but weaker and recycled.

MURDERCAT is scum.

[Titus]

The Mafia have published a hit list.
The following names are on it:

Klyne
ben dover123
DeasVail

This is honestly less useful than I was hoping for. Some questions are:

1. Does mafia put themselves on this list?
2. Why are they on the list? Good reads?
3. Why did ben die? Are the others possibly wolves?

I think this will make more sense as the game goes on.

Wifom post. Doesn't contribute.

[Titus]

I feel like shaking things up and probably being stupid.

VOTE: Plusjoyed

Titus not doing any wagon or list analysis??

This vote was a flat out test to see if people asked me why I was doing something or were pursuing a narrative.

MURDERCAT doesn't ask if PlusJOYED is the result of my wagon analysis. He doesn't ask if I am reaction testing. He automatically jumps to the worst explanation.

This is scum.

[Titus]

so, people who are categorically not mafia: Baltar, Datisi, Klyne, DeasVail. any of them could still be wolves, obviously.

if there is a bussing vote, it's clidd. i'm not sure there's any particular reason to assume that there has to be someone bussing though. of course as the primo busman i would say that etc. etc.

I disagree, the wagon was pretty clearly going through earlier than clidd

Murder trying to expand the pool of possible mafia with this and his last post.

[Titus]

so, people who are categorically not mafia: Baltar, Datisi, Klyne, DeasVail. any of them could still be wolves, obviously.

if there is a bussing vote, it's clidd. i'm not sure there's any particular reason to assume that there has to be someone bussing though. of course as the primo busman i would say that etc. etc.

I disagree, the wagon was pretty clearly going through earlier than clidd

Murder trying to expand the pool of possible mafia with this and his last post.

Pedit, Murder ninjaed me. The post before his last one.

[Titus]

Is Datisi scum then?

What does you being scum have anything to do with you? Why did you not even ask about my PlusJOYED vote?

VOTE: MURDERCAT

[Titus]

Datisi specifically said that they wanted me to come in and make my alignment obvious. Deflection noted.

Your posting today is all about trying to expand who can be mafia.
You try to argue the speedwagon had bussers before clidd, but are vague as to who they could be. I am not sure if username is right, but his case makes sense and got a reaction out of MURDERCAT.

If iamausername is correct, then only clidd, MURDERCAT, taly, bulge and plusjoyed can be mafia. Two names in that pool is pretty slim. Doubly so since none of those names have clout.

[Titus]

pedit: ok, Murdercat and Titus both posted a bunch while i was writing this up. my conclusions are really not at all challenged by these posts. i think we want to aim for a wolf today, but i also think Titus might be at E-1 already?

I am not on plus. MURDERCAT just obvscummed. I was never intending to rope Plus.

[Titus]

If we decide to go wolf here, then whatever but MURDERCAT is mafia.

[Titus]

Titus, did your opinion of Klyne change based on the end of yesterday/start of today, and if so, why?

I still think Kylne might be wolf. The odds of hitting Kylne mafia are slim given the speedwagon drew from both our wagons. That alone should force a reevaluation.

Given I only like him for one faction and I should reevaluate him, best to get reactions and see.

[Titus]

onto the wolf team. titus continues to be... unimpressive. like, we just had a deadline cfd that hit scum. two competing wagons yesterday. shouldn't this be like, at least a good starting point for vca? instead, her entrance today is 815???

@titus, i believe murdercat was talking about this. does it change your opinion on my slot on any way?

No. You were confused, but didn't jump to scum. My intent was to be confusing to read the room. Scum would hyperpush no matter what I did. Town would be wtf.

MURDERCAT is hard push, recycle thoughts, and expanding the mafia pool.

[Titus]

This is honestly dumb username and Titus are both getting desperate and throwing shit at me I think

why am i desperate

nobody is voting for me

He's projecting. Odds are your case on the lack of bussers is right. If MURDERCAT flips as he should, then we're in a great position.

[Titus]

i called you scum along 3 other people and voted for you?? is that just being confused??

Yes. You didn't jump straight to scum. You had standards for me and expectations. MURDERCAT had none of that. MURDERCAT is not solving my slot. You are.

[Titus]

I don't really have the mental energy to do the argue against scum thing today sorry

Read: My calling of username desperate just got derailed, so I am going to duck out of this thread before anyone else sees hoping Titus will hang herself before finding the other scum.

[Titus]

titus, other than curdermat, who is scum? eli5, i'm drinking.

It's weaker right now but I expect one wolf in Kylne/Deasvail. I already went over why bussing is bad yesterday, so I doubt both.

Deasvail has been rather sheepy. Kylne still has his garbage play.

[Titus]

also, the fact that Klyne was on the list strongly suggests that it was changed after the point that it became clear that Klyne wasn't headed for the noose.

What do you mean by this?

i don't think mafia would put Klyne on the list when there was a good chance he would be executed.

if the list they submit has the eventual execution on it, wolves get to kill whoever they want. mafia absolutely don't want to give up control over the kill completely.

so the fact that Klyne was on the list we saw means it was probably submitted after the galaxii wagon had risen up.

Probably. There's still a chance mafia just knew Kylne was never getting executed. But I agree Kylne mafia should be shelved for now.

[Titus]

as for deas. i said this yesterday in 639, but 637 made my stomach turn. it's like, coupled with 658, it looks like a very weak attempt to justify a vote. "How things are said is probably more often alignment-indicative than the content itself" sounds like such a "oh god oh fuck i need to find reasons why i'm voting klyne oh shit". coupled with the fact that i kinda don't think klyne is scum anymore either, like. idk

Honestly, I shrugged at it. I was reading through looking for scum. You saw the same things the votes did. A sheepy DV.

What would be notable is the wagon DV didn't sheep unfortunately. DV has no problems getting on the Kylne or Galaxi wagons, which suggests unaligned. His voting and protecting of me suggests I do something for his team if scum.

I found murdercat more likely to be scum but DV hasn't done much. I would vote DV but more confident in murder but murder is blatant mafia and wolf lim is better. Some scum greater than a guess though.

[Titus]

I'll respond to 580 tomorrow in more detail if needed tomorrow but I'll do a short reply now.

1) Baltar should have hesitation about following someone using methods that aren't likely to catch scum from his PoV. I'm using following meaning voting after, not sheeping.

2) Contradictions tell a lot about alignment. If he was town, I would expect some sort of reassessment after being shown the contradiction. Something like maybe I'm not ok with executing anyone. My bet is there's at least one partner in the don't execute list.

3) I believe this was covered but both wagons on me are mostly the same slots. I still feel both sets of scum are on my wagon.

1. so if you disagree with someone's method but arrive at the same conclusion, you should ignore your own conclusions?

2. that is pretty weak. you quoted the post twice as is, like it was some kind of damning scumslip

3. doesn't really answer my question. what is giving you that feeling in the first place?

1) No. You should reconsider them but not discard them entirely.

2) I get my questions answered. If I had missed this post again, you probably would do the same.

3) I already answered this. I am a safe place for both sets of scum. I am not aligned with either. It makes sense for scum (like MURDERCAT) to do everything they can to keep my wagon viable.

As for Datisi and VP, I TR both.

VP has no reason to bus a partner yesterday. That eliminates him from being mafia. If he's a wolf, he doesn't give a rats ass if I am executed. In fact, if he's familiar with my play, he'd want that. If Kylne is town, it would be the same thing. So the only viable way this slot is scum is if he feared that Kylne would somehow be executed over me. That position doesn't make sense with galaxii's EoD posting. Given only one possible partnership, I am pretty ok calling this town.

As for Datisti, he waffled on me all of yesterday. Him wanting me to show my alignment makes sense.

[Titus]

3) As a collective, I wouldn't and that's how the question was posed?
-----
The collapse of both wagons matters because it suggests it was a town driven collapse. It would be rare for a team to risk an 11th hour successful scum elimination. The players left behind are the likely mafia/wolves pushing the Kylne and me wagons.

I highly doubt wolves pivot away from me because galaxii was floating voting my wagon. That would put me at L minus 1. Why would wolves change?

Basically TLDR scum benefitted from the static state. Klyne, if scum, can only be a wolf. His partner would not be an earlier wagon shifter either. So I am not inclined to vote Kylne.

[Titus]

So looks like we are going to have another klyne v Titus day huh? I'm going to propose we follow through if that is the case. We are going to need to sort that at some point I suppose.

This is not what I want. I want MURDERCAT versus DV but that's why I am likely getting roped.

[Titus]

sure, i guess it's possible that Taly or Plus are posting up a storm in a PT while ignoring the game thread right now too, but i think it's more likely we're getting another two replacements here.

Taly is posting elsewhere.

[Titus]

Right now my working theory is

Bulge DV wolves
MURDERCAT and Taly for mafia

[Titus]

DV is my pick over Bulge, as with Taly

If you truly care Titus then you do think the egging on i mentioned ks intentional rite...

Not sure what ks intentional rite is.

[Titus]

What's the case on DV? I see their name but can't for the life of me recall why he is a wolf. Sparknotes version please

That's the case on DV. DV is lurking, sheeping, and whiteknighting me. He thinks I have been town supposedly the whole time. Even today, he says suspecting me is a good look. Yet, what has he done to progress the game in another direction. Absolutely nothing.

Then, if I do flip, he can coast on "I told you so".

[Titus]

What is the deal here with all my townreads voting for me and my scumreads wking me?

[Titus]

still not feeling scumvibes from DV, but Bulge as a wolf is a call that has me intrigued. gonna iso that, i feel like i don't remember anything he's done besides voting Titus.

Why do you not feel DV?

I want to discuss your ISO there.

[Titus]

You should know that I wouldn't rely on "I told you so" as a plan for being a townread. And what more would you expect from me when it comes to progressing the game in another direction?

A push, active unique reasoning even if you agreed with everything being said. I expect you to do things.

[Titus]

Taly I want you to be town here but I am sadly not feeling the obvious town-vibes that I have felt from you in previous games.

I know that you probably can't give this game you're all right now and that's okay but I want to start a conversation

.

Why are you excusing Taly's behavior?

Why do you "know" Taly can't give this game her best?

[Titus]

Clidd, I see you're using the standard of "solving the game" as the standard for a townread. This is a mistake. Both alignments want to solve the game. Both want to scumhunt.

Mafia want to eliminate wolves, particularly if they are townread. Wolves want to eliminate mafia at some point as this nets them free kill potential. Plus, being on a mafia lynch gets them credit later on.

It's about how they solve the game. This is why I have VP in my high lock townread. Only one team with him makes sense (Kylne, wolves). If he lives forever and a day, I might reasses but it's about how they hunt.

Then we get to Murdercat. He's trying to expand the mafia suspect pool away from username's consensus and overly defensive. He does not do any followup on his theory that scum may have bussed early. He just wants more suspects there. He's also been very sheepy in his votes, like he needs permission. These are mafia associative tells.

Spoiler: BM quotes

Seeking a replacement for Battle Mage.

MURDERCAT has no significant interactions with BM before this.

Are Mara and BM scum and BM didn't want to deal with no teammate?
*tin foil*
This line of questioning worked really well in my last multiball game

Ok this post might be a good look but then comes the context and follow up.

Yeah that was mostly a joke for Plus/username/Titus

He immediately walks back his idea that questioning the BM slot is good, claiming it was a joke.

Going to try to go a bit faster this time sorry.

Spoiler: Reread page 11-24

UNVOTE: Titus

MC, what do you think about Titus after her last set of posts?

I was rereading the game and started to detect small towny sparks from Titus, so I started to wonder if the static gamestate would say something AI about the wagon's position.

I should be looking at this more closely if Titus is actually scum. Clidd might be deciding the bus isn't necessary here as the wagon stalled a bit.

I think I figured out what about Klick's posts has been bugginig me. Klick keeps drawing attention to how there's a large number of scum in this game, either directly or indirectly. (post 38 directly but also implied in 42 by how there's bound to be scum on the early wagon but also town on the early wagon, and in 229 with a line of how there must be scum even if Klick thinks they are towny). This bothers me because it's shifting focus away from reading players.

Klick's townread of me I think comes out of nowhere - or rather, it seems to have shifted after more people have expressed townleans on me. I'd like to know what that thing I did was that changed your mind. And wait, why is Klyne in your townish section?

VOTE: Klick

It's sort of interesting how Mara is kinda always off doing his own thing, it's probably + town points, it doesn't feel like he is trying to drive attention away from other places at all, just giving genuine analysis.

323 is kinda the first real content from DV. It's a lot of shade without a ton of substance, I think I want to see more here. Like I think username is playing to town meta but I'm not sure if it deserves a town read, there were still only like 3 posts in the iso. Maybe I'm just biased because there is shade thrown my way too.

Who is your top TR?

it might still be Plus, it might be DeasVail. i'm pretty sold on both of them as town at this point.

There's these weird groups forming. Plus/DV/username, me/clidd/Klyne.

I like how clidd is interacting with me around here, fwiw.

VOTE: Titus

I think this in response to Klyne trying to get the game going again (which by the way is still ++ townie to me) basically made my fears evaporate in regards to clidd.

mcat i see your questions but tbh I barely remember anything about the titus wagon. gimme a bit

Bulge hasn't really done anything yet

Halfway update:

Y'all realize Titus and Marashu are scum together, right? They both defended each other as town with like zero coherent reasoning at all in the very early pages of the game. I'd maybe even guess werewolves since I'd suspect that pair to be highly defense of each other if they have any hope of winning the game.

Klick and Klyne are my strongest townreads based on me vibing with the things they say. Klick early pages and in analysis of the Taly wagon, Klyne more pages 5-9 when he's busting up Marashu & Titus with zero fucks given.

clidd is probably clueless town based on early impressions.

VP is joining the Klyne/MC/clidd group that formed. Bulge too. I wonder if one of these are scum trying to get into a town block? VP is a bit more opportunistic in regards to his position relative to Titus but his posts also feel better.

Reading Datisi intro posts (492 and beyond). I don't like the kinda "worried about TRing Titus but still gunna TR Titus for all her posts" thing that is happening. And then in the next post Titus is TSTBS?

Da'Vonne is amazing and you're officially top tier human for this hiiii <3

It is known.

if anyone will even read it

I'm reading it!

Oh snap. The business happened over night.

Sorry you drew scum though. Will catch up later today.

I feel like the game is going to come down to figuring out where the scum is in the two groups that I pointed out. Overall I like datisi's posting but I think I might be mega tunneling on Titus so that is coloring my perception of the slot. I don't get VP's confidence here :/

VOTE: plusjoyed

This is big + town for me I think because Datisi scum probably votes for VP here if he is scum with Titus and that was basically my big worry about the slot.

i'm realising now why i have felt no desire to join the Titus wagon despite not townreading her at all. i'm feeling some level of bad vibes from every one of these people.

I find such a range of reads on me to be really weird. It makes me think the SRs on me are fake but that's probably unfair

Titus arrives, I think this will be telling.

That static gamestate is because of scum not wanting to push opposing scum or do anything really. I am making moves and scumhunting, but still wagoned. There's no discussion elsewhere because half the game doesn't want it. There's no incentive to push elsewhere if a wagon that's not on their team develops. When both scum find it, why would they bother? Doubly so when I am not around to defend myself.

How can you say this when you were just V/LA...
I hardly consider Titus to have done much scum hunting so far, plus you can't really say that you are doing a lot but also that you take a while to get going.

@Clidd, I take off later.

DV comes in with 558. I'm kinda wary that scum DV saw the read on me was unsustainable and dropped it, but maybe I am just more town now. I do agree with the reads on both username and clidd.

Klyne just seems all hot air to me and little in the way of organic substance. It just all seems very rah rah whatever works and I’m looking forward to seeing how they respond to votes.

I really think klyne is town still.

Bulge is saying a lot of stuff but I want him to pick a side and give some reads.

I am mindmelding with clidd here I think.

Spoiler: Part 2

Technical error but MURDERCAT's his text is included in the prior spoiler.

Feeling something like this at the moment.

{taly, clidd, klyne}
{username, datisi}
{galaxii, ben, VP}
{bulge, plus, dv}
{titus}

Going to respond like normal from here as I'm almost back up to date.

He has galaxii as null.

I do actually, but doesn't it really come down to who casts the first vote

He had previously said that he liked the idea of a galaxy wagon except for who started it.

#derail attempt

Oh that was Plus's slot! Which I promptly tried to yeet lol. But Plus was basically scum that game even if technically he was town.
Maybe I only kicked ass at the end of that game

Says something about BM slot only to walk back as wrong slot.

Well see you all tomorrow
I was going to try to get galaxii to give some info pre hammer but I guess she isn't coming

Wanted to hammer but then says he wanted to gather information too.

His ISO spends a fair amount of time trying to stop the speedwagon when he can and zero effort sorting it.

[Titus]

VOTE: Bulge

@Clidd, I can't really comment on the patterns you're seeing, but I'll see if I can find my own. ISOing them.

[Titus]

I don't think I like them being associated because of the beginning of the thread. I can see a point though since Plus never says a read on both slots.

[Titus]

Seeing how passive PlusJoyed is, I could be open to them being a wolf, just not mafia. I don't see mafia opening up with such a hard tr on their buddy.

[Titus]

Can you talk to me about Bulge?

[Titus]

VOTE: plusjoyed

[Titus]

As much as I think Murdercat is mafia, I get the yuck feeling when I read 1008. I feel like I'm being sucked up to by username while pushed by their partner. That kind of makes sense if Plusjoyed is their partner. Holy crap.

[Titus]

VOTE: plusjoyed

give me one reason you shouldn't be yeeted into the sun

VOTE: PlusJoyed

Guess I don't have to do a massive reread when the scum are just going to claim in thread.

VOTE: plusjoyed

Titus how are you voting for Plus here after what happened in our last game with him

My short term memory is faded. What are you talking about?

[Titus]

I'm referring to the game that username and I are talking about, 2172 where plus rolled over and died as town

So we should not wagon Plus because he gamethrew once?

[Titus]

Well this imploded.

[Titus]

End of 42 - Welcome IV.
Bulge putting me down as scum with no reasons when he puts reasons for everyone else is :stinkeye:.

[Titus]

Oh I forgot, his read of username is correct though.

[Titus]

bulge has never played with scum me but has played with both scum!plus and town!plus

and it’s easier to read me?

damn, my scumgame really is something awful huh

*insert post complaining about how multi ball scumhunting sucks and is different from normal scumhunting*

I lean fake but I can't tell whether this is melodrama or fake.

[Titus]

Obviously both IAAU and MC can't be scum here

...this kind of feels like a slip

I'm not following.

you know that neither of us are wolves, and therefore we can't both be scum unless we are scum together, which i think is pretty clearly not the case.

like, because you're actually trying to puzzle out who could be scum with plus, you forgot to think about it from a town perspective?

no i guess that's dumb. the sentence is just missing an implied 'with Plus', which could equally just come from town Baltar thinking about who is partnered with Plus.

This is stretchy as hell.

He's wrong. You are likely a wolf. MC is a mafia.

You trying to manufacture a "slip" is an attempt to increase the PoE. Town mostly recognizes each other now. There's only a couple spots left.

[Titus]

VP, Datisi, Klyne, DeasVail, Iamusername, Clidd

I want to start here.

Murdermeowmeow, I saw you town read a couple of these people strongly, but I didn't see any reasons for it.

Welcome. Too bad you're a mafia with Murdercat.

[Titus]

This is where I shall begin, at the conclusion of the first day.

galaxii (7): VP Baltar, Datisi, ben dover123, Klyne, DeasVail, iamausername, clidd
Klyne (2): Titus, Taly
Titus (1): The Bulge
VP Baltar (1): galaxii
Taly (1): PlusJOYED

Not voting (1): MURDERCAT

First glance, The Bulge, PlusJoyed, and Murdercat are bound to have at least 1 Mafia in them. I doubt both Mafia would be bussing, 1 is probable, which means VP, Datisi, Klyne, DeasVail, Iamusername, Clidd have another one in them.

Titus could be wolfie bark bark.

however wolf is most likely on that galaxii wagon as well.

why are you discounting the possibility that Titus is mafia here?

A) I am patently not by the VCA. If mafia weren't on my wagon pushing it, they would have had the numbers to push me through.

B) A is mafia with MURDERCAT.

[Titus]

Consensus town
VP
Kylne
Datisi
Clidd

Mafia
MURDERCAT
Ahsoka

Left overs
Bulge and DV
Username and IV

I paired those up because I feel they are most likely similar alignments. Regardless, scum have to attack the townblock that has formed. I'm on the outside looking in but most town aren't biting for a repeat of the stalled wagons of yesterday.

[Titus]

can i get the tl;dr on this? [A as mafia]

Sure. It's largely Taly's interactions with the thread and Murdercat. A has continued that pattern. Taly also only flaked this game.

[Titus]

sure, i guess it's possible that Taly or Plus are posting up a storm in a PT while ignoring the game thread right now too, but i think it's more likely we're getting another two replacements here.

Taly is posting elsewhere.

Right now my working theory is

Bulge DV wolves
MURDERCAT and Taly for mafia

Taly I want you to be town here but I am sadly not feeling the obvious town-vibes that I have felt from you in previous games.

I know that you probably can't give this game you're all right now and that's okay but I want to start a conversation

.

Why are you excusing Taly's behavior?

Why do you "know" Taly can't give this game her best?

Taly pretty much dodged the thread entirely. We open with A wanting to look at the wagon that executed scum and is friendly/jovial with Murdercat.

[Titus]

A why are you trying to counterwagon IV if you think IV is scum?

[Titus]

Don’t really TR Titus
hasn’t been doing a ton, not much real content for the amount of posting
klyne cased Titus and I thought it was....fine ish maybe
I don’t have opinions about their latest MC push thats around when I stopped rereading

Me: Has a theory of the game
IV: No real content

Try that again.

[Titus]

It's almost so bad it makes me think he could be town....

i lowkey feel this and don't know how to feel about that

I think its desperation but not exactly town motivated. There's a chance it could be.

[Titus]

titus do i look like i know how to play this dumb game the answer is no no i do not.

@titus, what do you think, how likely is iv to be not of the town?

can you pls do this thing

I'd say 75/25 scum to town.

[Titus]

This question essentially boils down to taking the scum I feel more confident about (MURDERCAT) or the one who might kill us (DV).

[Titus]

This question essentially boils down to taking the scum I feel more confident about (MURDERCAT) or the one who might kill us (DV).

Fwiw, I think either yeet is probably acceptable. I'd like to hit a wolf today because the game is basically a lock for town if we do I think, but getting another mafia isn't a disaster. I say vote what feels right.

I pmed the mod asking for a VC. That will likely be my tiebreaker.

[Titus]

This question essentially boils down to taking the scum I feel more confident about (MURDERCAT) or the one who might kill us (DV).

Oh i see, you take me out when it’s convenient for me not to be listed as a scum.

This is bad faith posturing.

The context was clearly talking about which wagon I would vote for, not the strength of my reads.

[Titus]

@Mod: In that VC, my vote should be on IV. I'm going to change my vote over to DV based on wagon company though

VOTE: DV

[Titus]

Elimination minus 1

[Titus]

Doesnt it make sense towards the end of day to vote for someone that might actually get lynched?
You describe things I’m doing as if they’re scummy when it’s just sensible play (also I wasn’t even in imminent danger back then)

It's definitely something I'm considering. I still don't quite follow how your read on me evolved. Was there more than the "I'm obv town" post that made you change your read?

In other news, Ahoska's posting on the last few pages is weird.

A is scum with MURDERCAT that's why.

A took a tone of gee that's understanably wrong when A subbed in.

Now, it's more about saving her and MURDERCAT.

[Titus]

My bad. I forgot this over Xmas. Reading now.

[Titus]

*mutes Klyne*

Now where were we? Oh yes, voting the scum I am tunneling.

VOTE: Murdercat

[Titus]

I was right. Lol