Open 202 - Friends JK 9 (Game Over)

[semioldguy]

/confirm

Let's get

this party started

Dangerous!

[semioldguy]

Vote: Dry-fit

[semioldguy]

Unvote; Vote: SeRose

[semioldguy]

fo'sho

TDC, have you played with Lowell before?

Unvote; Vote: TDC

[semioldguy]

So you are aware he is likely to be under suspicion by several people before too long anyway? At least that has been the case in my experiences with Lowell. Just seems like you are giving an easy mark a little head start with the votes.

Unvote; Vote: don_johnson

(omgus vote)

...that, and you killed me the last game we were in if I recall correctly.

[semioldguy]

@Wdjat
The playerlist is fairly new. I have played with don_johnson and Lowell before, and I don't think I've played with TDC, but I could be wrong. I don't recognize anyone else. Though I suspect we might have an alt among us.

[semioldguy]

You're right. I forgot about that.

I also have no desire to protect you.

[semioldguy]

The game I was in with him did not have a wagon build up early, though did have several people mention suspicion of him and a willingness to vote/wagon him, myself included if I recall correctly. That game is here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11252.

During that game I read some of his previous games (when the search function was working to find all posts by XXX player) and he was regularly suspected in the games I read. So I don't have other links.

[semioldguy]

EBWOP:
You'll have to remove that period at the end of the link

[semioldguy]

@Semioldguy: What do you think of nessarae56?

Likely a younger female. Someone who put herself into an unfavorable spot and can't live up to it. I'm thinking slightly more likely town as an "oops, I messed up and don't want to deal with my screw up" sort mindframe. Though it wouldn't be unreasonable as scum, I think if that were the case she would have stayed at least a little bit longer to attempt defending herself.

We should look elsewhere for scum for now.

Unvote; Vote: Wdjat

Here would be a good place to start. Lowell and Sleepless Assassin make good points.

The initial Lowell conversation arose because I thought it might have been possible for TDC to have placed his vote on Lowell knowing that it might be easy to get votes in a game that appeared to have a lot of newer players (or accounts at least).

I don't think Lowell is a bad player.

[semioldguy]

I'd argue there is not yet enough information to know whether or not Lowell is the right or wrong lynch today. (I'd currently argue against it because he isn't the most scummy player anyway) There is much still to be gleaned.

Additionally, there are plenty of times when players with a history of looking scummy can still be a good day one lynch. Ignoring a player for the possibility of the lynch is rarely advisable. To the uniformed majority, everyone is a suspect to us on some level.

[semioldguy]

So when you mentioned that Lowell would come under suspicion that had more to do with everyone else in the thread than it had to do with Lowell?

It specifically had to do with TDC, not everyone else.

[semioldguy]

post 63 seems to imply that TDC is scummy, but semi votes wdjat. why?

also, what are the "good points" raised by lowell and SA?

I am not implying that TDC is scummy in that post. I saw it as a possible avenue previously, but feel that TDC is genuine in his opinions toward Lowell and the vote was not intended as sneaky or malicious.

I will not imply that someone is scummy if I find them to be scummy. I will come forward and specifically state that they are scummy.

The "good points" can be found in the two posts, 57 and 58, prior to mine. The posts aren't particularly long and pretty straightforward, a combined 50 words and 4 sentences between the two posts. I don't know why it would be difficult to discern what I thought were good points.

[semioldguy]

when will the vote end? once everyone voted?

Please refer to the game rules found in "Post subject: 1" of the thread posted by our lovely moderator.

[semioldguy]

I am here and have been here, hoping others will post and conversate and such. I don't want to play by myself

[semioldguy]

Unvote; Vote: SerRose

Start being more useful. You have literally done nothing thus far. If you had to put a vote down in your next post who would it be for and why? Don't reply that you don't know or that you aren't sure. Be a man, take a stand!

Any participation would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[semioldguy]

Yes, he is a suspect of mine.

However, I think my vote is currently in a better place for now. You should join me in it.

[semioldguy]

vote semioldguy

you can either be genuinely looking for a good game with plenty of interactions

or

just picking on easy target

haha yes i concede i'm not being useful/posting much here. fortunately my absence ,instead of casting a gloom on the game, actually provides a topic for discussion

Unfortunately this is a false dichotomy. There are other things I can be doing with my post, such as scum hunting.

Why did you avoid part of my question? (The "why" part)

What makes you think you are an easy target?

There is no "fortunately" about your absence, unless you are scum and it leads to your lynch. Inactivity casts gloom on the game regardless of alignment. How does not being useful or posting much help the town? If you don't think it does than why aren't you making more effort to be useful?

Pick up the pace.

[semioldguy]

I initially thought of him as merely lurking/anti-town, which led to a pressure vote to get him to do anything. His response is scummy to me.

I think SerRose is almost as anti-town as one can get, but placing him at the furthest point on the scale away from scumminess would be inaccurate in regards to scumminess. As would placing him away from the highest levels of anti-town measurement cause an inaccurate measurement of his anti-town play thus far. As such there is not an accurate placement for him on your scale. Your scale is flawed as moving more toward the scummy side would not necessarily detract from the anti-town side and visa versa.

It'd be better apt as an x/y-axis graph rather than just an x-axis.

I will refrain from exact placement on this graph until after I receive a response to my most recent concerns. I do currently find him scummy and I do find him anti-town.

[semioldguy]

I currently find him scummy. I also find him anti-town. At the time of my vote, I only saw him as anti-town.

When he responds I will provide a number/measurement of how much for both before and after.

[semioldguy]

@Dry-fit
Poorly reasoned and a contributing factor to why I found his response to be scummy.

@SerRose
So if you think getting voted on the platform of inactivity could lead to disastrous results for town or make you an easy target, then why don't you do something about it?

You still have yet to really participate in the game. Mere responding to my questions and doing nothing more is not very helpful to the town. You should be able to contribute without having questions asked of you to do so.

List two of your suspects and why you suspect them please. What are some of the things in the game you agree with that others have been saying?

Additionally, if you are concerned about a first day lynch in which scum don't give much information away, then you need to start contributing more yourself. Because if you are scum, then any lynch today would be a lynch in which scum doesn't give much information away because you haven't done much of anything. The only way to ensure that scum is having to take stances and leaving opportunities for the town to gather reads and analyze posts is for everyone to participate. No one lurks.

@TDC
SerRose at the time of my vote:
Scummy rating of 2; Anti-town rating of 10

SerRose at the time of your request:
Scummy rating of 6; Anti-Town rating of 9

SerRose currently:
Scummy rating of 7; Anti-town rating of 9

[semioldguy]

@TDC
Yes. Still like my vote, clearly.

[semioldguy]

Wdjat is currently the next best lynch after SerRose in my opinion.

[semioldguy]

DoubleVote: SerRose

Bring. It. On.

[semioldguy]

When I come to this thread, I am lonely.

@TDC
Why is Dry-Fit scum?

@don_johnson
Sleepless Assassin also seems to be missing. Why is his case the worst in your opinion? Please make comparisons to other bad cases to show why his is worse than other bad cases you see.

@Lowell
Whose vote is the worst right now and why does their vote stink? I feel there are several good candidates for the 'worst vote' award. Choose wisely.

@Dry-Fit
What about SerRose to you indicates that he is not a complete newbie. I disagree with your assertion and think that it is most likely for SerRose to be a complete newbie.

@wdjat
Why is focusing on single piece of bad logic scummier to you than Lowell's being all over the place? If anything, I find the tunneling on bad logic not to be a tell if the poster does not see the bad logic behind his line of inquiry and currently get a feeling of disinterested town from Sleepless Assassin.

@ConfidAnon
Is there anything from your predecessor that you are in agreement with?

@SerRose
Why did you assume that my initial vote on you was to get you lynched at all rather than to just participate? Are you going to do something or take a stance on your own without my having to ask you a question about it first? Also, if you change your avatar to something that doesn't have Mr. Bean on it, I will switch my vote to wdjat.

@Sleepless Assassin
I have a good town feeling about ConfidAnon and the player he replaced. If you had to make a second choice right now, who would it be?

I expect to have something better to read tomorrow at work than I did today.

[semioldguy]

"Bad" is more of a relative term. There must be some hierarchy to the cases in the game. Maybe they are all excellent cases (I don't think they are necessarily so in this game), but some are always going to be worse than others.

If you don't think there are any truly bad cases in this game, pick another case that you feel is low on the relative hierarchy and explain why that case is better than Sleepless Assassin's. (Basically I'm asking for a comparison of any two cases as long as one of them is Sleepless Assassin's, pointing out what you like or don't like about the cases as to make a contrast to one another)

I'll of course allow for a re-read of the last several pages.

[semioldguy]

I am curious and just want to see your point of view/train of thought on the matter. I am neither defending him or attacking him as of this point. He is very middle of the road for me. There are players I find scummier, and there are players I find more likely to be town.

[semioldguy]

Clearly. I'd probably be the last person in the game to say that.

[semioldguy]

@Sleepless Assassin
What about SerRose gives you a such a confident town read on him?

[semioldguy]

@TDC
Cheap shot at your random vote.

[semioldguy]

Wdjat is currently the next best lynch after SerRose in my opinion.

Care to elaborate on this now?

For reasons previously stated. Additionally post 118 seems disingenuous to me. It makes little sense to me that wdjat is stamping the okay for wanting anti-town players for living until tomorrow. His not wanting to lynch SerRose or Lowell based on what I feel are likely horrible reasons. It looks to me like he is trying to keep some easy targets alive regardless of whether they are scummy or not. He doesn't give a suitable explanation for why they might be town or that we shouldn't lynch them.

[semioldguy]

@ConfidAnon
Is there anything from your predecessor that you are in agreement with?

Not really, off the top of my head.

Go back and look just in case.

Mod: I will be V/LA until Monday

[semioldguy]

I come back to essentially three days of little to nothing?!

@Mod: Please prod SerRose, wdjat and Sleepless Assassin

They are all well over the 72 hour mark.

Deadline is in two days and with the amount of non-activity here it heavily favors scum. Let's get to a consensus, without it we pass the day with little information as scum basically have to do nothing with so little going on and with the votes not in any way together.

My top two suspects are SerRose and wdjat. Let's lynch one of them. They are both scummy in addition to their lurking, causing an overall decline in the game's activity and a favorable scum condition.

SerRose continues to express concern over the conditions he is creating, yet doing nothing about it. This is very scummy.

[semioldguy]

Just because you give an explanation does not automatically make it a suitable one.

Your recent posts, however, look much better and more genuine. I disagree about SerRose though, and don't think anyone should have lower value for scum tells, just different tells which are more appropriate. This is true of all players.

[semioldguy]

@Mod: Votecount and prod on ConfidAnon please.

Also I would like to request a small deadline extension to allow time for prodded players to return to the game or time to allow for a replacement to be found for them if they don't.

[semioldguy]

@Semioldguy- What about Wdjat's recent posts looks better?

As said I find his posts to be more genuine. Don't know how to explain it exactly.

[semioldguy]

Aslo, the player who gets put in jail is roleblocked. So jailing the tracker as a plan will not get us any information.

[semioldguy]

Dry-fit's response is town.

The points brought up against him are crap.

[semioldguy]

I disagree that he was on a completely crap mini-wagon. Perhaps you should explain why you think this mini-wagon was crap and also why being on it is crap. You merely stating that it is does not make it true.

[semioldguy]

You have no clear or stated substance to your "points" against him. Therefore they are crap.

Let's take a look:

(This is always so exciting for me when people walk into these things!!)

@ Semioldguy: Is your vote for Wdjat serious?

This also pinged on my scumdar. Why wouldn't it be?

This is a dumb question, because the question Dry-fit asks supposes that he was not able to find an answer on his own which is why he had to ask in the first place. If you thought my vote was clearly serious, instead of asking Dry-fit to point out where it could be serious you should be able to point out yourself where/how you interpret my vote to have been serious.

Oh, I see you slightly addressed this:

There was nothing to suggest it was a joke.

Oh goody!

You're right! I don't think there is anything to suggest it was a joke. But Dry-fits question wasn't whether the vote was a joke, his question asked if the vote was serious. (Yes, there is a difference as joke/serious are not the only two things a vote can be) What suggests that the vote was serious to you? And now, go look at all my votes previous to my vote on wdjat. Explain to me how you determine any of them to be either a joke or serious (or something else entirely).

Sounds like fun.

unvote. vote: SerRose

So, you derail a wdjat wagon to start a SerRose wagon. If wdjat flips scum, dry-fit is also likely scum.

There is no substance to this claim. How is Dry-fit derailing a wagon? How is he starting a wagon? Why am I not the one guilty of derailing/starting the wagons? (after all, not only did I move my vote off of wdjat onto SerRose first, but I called for Dry-fit's vote on SerRose as well) Your statement is just not very accurate.

dry-fit calls DJ down for trying to "direct" power roles, which is complete BS, because DJ has a good point.

Just because a good point is made does not mean it doesn't direct power roles. It most certainly does in this case. Any statement offering a suggestion that power role do something is pretty clearly direction.

For example. If I were to say "the tracker/watcher would be best suited to watch the claimed doctor" this could be argued as a good point. But to claim it isn't directing a power role is just dumb. I most certainly would be directing a power role with my statement.

Even if the point is good, making these suggestions can be scummy, because it attempts to divert an investigative night action away from oneself. It would be in scum's best interest to do this.

Both of them had two votes on them when I voted for SerRose. So if I had voted for Wdjat, would that have been derailing the SerRose wagon?

No, because there's nothing else to suggest a connection between you and SerRose.

Are you saying that the only way to derail a wagon is for there to be a connection from the derailing player to the derailed player? Wagons can't be derailed in any other way? So I guess it isn't possible for me to ever derail any wagon unless I connect myself to that player first. Shit.


Hmm... that covers all of your points. All of them suck. They either come with absolutely no explanation or have gaping holes.

If you want short posts, do something right the first time.

[semioldguy]

He was picking an easy target to jump on page 2, which IS a scumtell.

Bandwagoning in and of itself is not a scumtell, but doing it for a shady reason is.

I could say essentially the same thing for your vote on Dry-fit. You came in and voted for the most recently popular wagon.

You reasoning is pretty shady, since I pointed out how much crap is consists of. If you intend on using this as a scumtell I ask that you please use it on yourself first.

Unvote; Vote: Bio Hazard

As already mentioned, you need to claim.

[semioldguy]

There's a difference between calling me scum and being insulting. This falls into the latter.

You're right, I apologize for that.

[semioldguy]

Dry-fit's response is town.

The points brought up against him are crap.

Personally, I find this to be a load of shit,

Cool. I love going through stuff like this with people. Let's have a lookee:

First I will ask if you agree with the points Bio Hazard is using for his vote. If so, you can answer the questions for him that I posed against his points. If you don't like his points, now is the time to speak up.

Let's move on.

Dry-fit

I've noticed he doesn't actually add much content to the game, he just questions people here and there, and that's about it. I believe he tried to push suspicion back onto Serrose unnecessarily and attacked Don for wanting to 'redirecting' power roles, when he just merely suggested it was better to check then lynch Serrose which is indeed correct.

From paste experiences (This game I was in, especially by LordChrono's play):

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13355

The mafia tend to be semi-active and ask a lot of questions to appear 'townie' but don't actually analysis or take a stance on anything until forced to or called out.

Overall read on Dry-fit - Medium read as a Mafia.

Nice I like that you take a stance. You even give reasons along with your stance which is awesome (no sarcasm, this is awesome). This is a valid reason and motive analysis.

However, some people just play that way. Even as town. I know I've made the mistake before in my suspicions. When a player is asking a lot of questions, a majority of the answers he gets are not going to be scummy. That's just how it is. And wasting further time and effort on answers that aren't scummy is not helpful for the town; it's distracting. I think it's a town-tell to be asking lots of questions but not doing anything with them. Scum would make a move sooner rather than later or ask questions with spring traps in them.

The few responses he does make to answers to his questions are things that he clearly has a further problem with and needs more probing.

I don't know what exactly about my post that you think is a load of shit, so I am going to just guess that both parts are and explain the rest of it too about how I see Dry-fit's answers as those coming from a town player.

The cases don't interest you but you do nothing to prevent the lynch of something you don't believe in??

I never felt he was in such danger of a lynch to need a defense.

To me this is an obvious town reasoning. I have used this reasoning many times myself as town and it fits his ask questions but not follow up playstyle. I similarly feel that neither of those players were in danger of being lynched at the time. I stated early on my thoughts about ConfidAnon's spot, but you didn't see me defending against that lynch either. (Bio Hazard is just terribly opportunistic with little to no good reason for doing so in my mind and caused me to change my read)

His other answers to BioHazard have already been rebuked, but they both provide accurate accounts of the game state at the time and point to holes in the point brought up against him.

[semioldguy]

my post was made in response to what i percieved as a "bad" case. that not withstanding, directing power roles is only scummy if scum is directing them.

This is true. But there is no assurance that you aren't scum, so it still could possibly be scummy.

Personally I don't find your suggestion scummy coming from you. But it most clearly is directing a power role as you seem to agree with. My post was merely clearing up that misrepresentation about it being directing.

suggesting that a particular player be investigated can actually help a newb powerrole or inexperienced player find scum. anyone pushing the idea that what i said was "scummy" is just looking for town points imo. we have no guarantee that the player i suggested be "targeted" is, in fact, town. dry-fit is twisting words and took my post completely out of its context. my statement wasn't made to "direct" power roles. sure you can interpret it that way, but when placed in the original context it is obvious that the intent is to point out a poor case, and not to actually direct anyone.

I agree and disagree with this to an extent. I don't think Dry-fit took it out of context intentionally or was specifically looking for town-cred, I myself have seen your posts get taken out of context somewhat often it seems, so I don't think it is inexcusable for town to respond in that way here.

[semioldguy]

You really want me to go back and tell you why I think your vote is serious? What do you think was dry-fit's point in asking the question?

I think Dry-fit's point in asking the question was because he couldn't discern if it was a serious vote or not. (duh!)

If you disagree with that assessment, then you should have no difficulty in detailing why you came to the conclusion that my vote was obviously serious.

So yes. I would like you to go back and tell me why.

The difference between you and dry-fit is that dry-fit was never on the wdjat "wagon" to begin with.

So now I can't derail wagons that I am on? I most certainly can!

Unvote; Vote Regfan

This is a much better vote everyone! Let's get it moved over!!

Choo! Choo!!!

Oh wait... are we connected yet do you think? Because if we aren't apparently my attempt to derail your wagon won't work.

Are you saying that the only way to derail a wagon is for there to be a connection from the derailing player to the derailed player?

Yes

. Wagons can't be derailed in any other way? So I guess it isn't possible for me to ever derail any wagon unless I connect myself to that player first.

What does this mean?

Shit.

I disagree. I have seen many a wagon-derailment without a prior existing connection between the two players. My eyes don't believe your mouth.

Also @Bio Hazard
One post is all it takes for me if the post is particularly scummy. Scum only need to screw up once to get caught.

[semioldguy]

Either he's falling prey to some buddying or he's doing some buddying of his own. I suspect it's the former.

I have considered this.

Also,

Unvote; Vote: Bio Hazard

[semioldguy]

semi, did you notice this?

I'm not too happy with the was semioldguy is jumping to Dry-fit's defense either. Either he's falling prey to some buddying or he's doing some buddying of his own. I suspect it's the former.

if wdjat is implying that dry-fit is "buddying", then that implies that he is scum. so, in wdjat's opinion, the scum team is bio/dry. what do you make of that, and do you agree/disagree with the comment?

Clearly I did notice it. I quoted and commented on it.

Buddying is not exclusive to scum, but possible implications are also noted.

[semioldguy]

I don't consider buddies until I've got a flip to look at.

Prior to that it is too theoretical.

wdjat doesn't look town to me, there are several players who I would think are town before him.

[semioldguy]

I'd actually much rather lynch Regfan, or even wdjat if Regfan isn't attainable, over Bio Hazard. I still have a strong feeling of nessearae as newb-town. If the support is there for a switch I am for it.

(guess the two of us are linked now, eh Bio Hazard?)

Unvote; Vote: Regfan

[semioldguy]

The first time was to get a rise out of Bio Hazard (because he is flat out wrong about wagons and wagon-changing, which unfortunately being wrong does not indicate being scum).

The second one was all for you though. I have done exactly (almost to the "t") what you are doing right now when I replaced in as scum before in Newbie 774. I picked on the guy asking questions for the same reasons you are.

[semioldguy]

I suggest that some people play differently, not everyone (well, everyone probably does to a small degree at least). But there is an abundance of overlap to everyone's play as well.

Meta isn't so great for scum hunting. Even less so when a player suggests it for himself. It implies that a person is aware of his or her own meta, which is then usually most useful for digging up null tells on that person.

If picking upon people sitting on the sidelines in the manner you are doing in this game is a null-tell for you (which is debatable), it isn't even the only thing I find scummy about you or your player slot.

Are you really that worried about my one vote when practically no one has even been suspicious of you player slot all game aside from myself and Dry-fit?

[semioldguy]

Town players don't have to jump to the defense of every, or any, wagon they disagree with. Many times doing so creates a distraction and doesn't even fulfill the purpose when you disagree with a wagon.

I already went over that with you in Post 221, providing my reasons and line of thought where my town read comes from. You disagree with my assessment. I don't know what more you expect.

[semioldguy]

necessarae - Likely Town
ConfidAnon - Neutral-Null
Bio Hazard - Moderately Scummy

SerRose - Likely Scum
Regfan - Slightly Scummy

My vote on Regfan is about 70% for SerRose and 30% for Regfan. His push for Dry-fit was not worse than Bio Hazard's, Bio Hazard's is strictly worse in my opinion. It just difficult to get the lingering thoughts out of my head of both their predecessors, which I know is odd because the order the players are in each player slot shouldn't affect the overall read as much as it does for me.

[semioldguy]

My lean toward town progressively solidified on her as I thought more about it. The two replaced under largely different circumstances. necessarae requested her own replacement. SerRose lurked into getting replaced. Of course the differences are not limited to that, just the most obvious difference.

SerRose admitted to not being very useful or posting much yet he didn't even attempt to remedy that fact. (as well as never posting any thoughts of his own unless he was specifically asked a question about it)

[semioldguy]

My lean toward town progressively solidified on her as I thought more about it.

Why and when? Presumably after you voted BH?

Actually well before I voted Bio Hazard, while ConfidAnon was still here and posting. I thought about it more and decided that looking at how overly-concerned she was with "starting over." That personality seems more likely to request immediate replacement as town than scum to me because such little time elapsed that drew her to the conclusion that replacing out was best. Just fits town thought to me the more I thought about it.

My unvote and revote to demonstate a point made me realize that I didn't really like my vote on Bio Hazard. So I moved it as it did not accurately reflect my suspicions.

(as well as never posting any thoughts of his own unless he was specifically asked a question about it)

Many people (newbie or not) play like that.

I did ask him to come up with something on his own, which he never got around to doing.

[semioldguy]

His opportunistic play seemed more pertinent at the time.

[semioldguy]

That's understandable that you are.

That makes me feel a little bit more town about you and I am actually surprised no one else mentioned it prior to now.

[semioldguy]

Negligence mostly. The rest being poor reasoning.

[semioldguy]

As just mentioned, The primary point I find scummy is that SerRose admitted to playing anti-town yet did nothing to change that.

Deadline is just under five hours from now.

[semioldguy]

He already claimed.

As per the rules there can't be a no-lynch (unless we all vote specifically to no-lynch)

[semioldguy]

This was frustrating to watch from the sidelines after being offed on night one.

Dry-Fit was by far the most likely town to me... I still don't know why you lynched him.

Is there a scum QT to share?