Open 397: Pick Your Poison! Game Over!

[RachMarie]

VOTE: LS

Because someone else already voted NS

[RachMarie]

If you are going to be V/LA for a week Chrimi could you unvote your RVS? I am sure by then we will be done with it and into serious discussion?

[RachMarie]

For everyone else who was not part of Newbie 1206 or read it, we had one person cast a RVS vote, then they later had to be replaced, but that vote was there for quite some time, and another player insisted RVS had not yet ended, and it led to a very annoying wild goose chase for many pages. I would rather avoid that in this game.

[RachMarie]

VOTE: Thomith
Long time, no see!

lol.
I don't even remember you.

also lets get some random questions down:

1- what allignment do you prefer playing as, town or scum?

scum for sure, i like being evil and i prefer being the informed minority, of course that doesn't mean i don't try as town .

2- have you played mafia before, or is this your first ever game?

counting ongoings, i think this is my 25th game mark (not all on this site) i lost count

3- what is your timezone and how many times a day can we expect you to be posting?

my timezone is the UK one (no clue if it is GMT or BST i get confused between the two... 18:09 as of the time posting so...) and i will try to post at least once a day, if not more.

answers are

bolded

Hey Thomith

My answers:

1. I am not sure yet need to play more games to figure out, though I do know playing the doc in my first newbie game kinda sucked lol.

2. One finished and completed game (Newbie 1206) 6 ongoing games (5 newbie games including my first as SE, 3 replacements and my 2nd newbie game.) Plus this Open game. Working on getting the experience to be an IC. Been a member onsite for almost 4 months, but they are pushing me to SE due to the crash to allow more newbies to get a start. I know more theory than actual experience at this time. My bf (who RVS voted me has been here almost 2 and 1/2 years) Love you too NS

3. Time zone is PDT, and I am very active. Though if my workload gets heavy enough I may have to V/LA at some point, but even then I will make sure to post every day or two.

@ Chrimi
ok thanks Chrimi. I just remember how annoyed everyone was at Gun for that insistence that RVS was still going on. You lucked out replacing after LS and Meta NKed him.


Speaking of LS you need to get in here no lurking allowed.

[RachMarie]

@ T and P
Do you think you could cut out the fart jokes and post in one color?

I figure it can't hurt to ask.

[RachMarie]

Well we have 11 days and change, its worth seeing if asking works first before lynching them.

[RachMarie]

If we are moving from RVS already, then I will

UNVOTE:

Just because LS was scum in our last game, of course does not mean he is in this one. He did post though after I voted for him.

[RachMarie]

Active discussion is good for town to help track down and nail the scum. The sooner we get out of the icebreaker stage and into serious scum hunting the better, especially with a shorter deadline.

[RachMarie]

Thank you for that T and P.

[RachMarie]

I think with so much attention on NS we are losing the big picture here. And scum is taking advantage of that. NS the best defense is offense, focus on some actual scum hunting. I am not so sold that he is scum, and I think we need more discussion too before we lynch someone.

I will be looking at ISOs and see what I can find.

[RachMarie]

@ Rasp
It was RVS, he voted for his girlfriend "just because", it was a joke vote like many RVS votes are. I think he is too easy a lynch and as a result the scum are hiding behind it, maybe even joining it or planning to because it is an easy lynch. I tend to be cautious about bandwagons that spring up and suddenly discussion of other players ends and boom we lynch. Usually ends up leading to a mislynch of a townie especially on D 1. If we were down to the wire, it would be different, but we still have 10 days and change so there is time for more discussion and looking at more players instead of just oh lets lynch this one and get it over with.

[RachMarie]

@LS
I was mainly clarifying what RVS is, since it seems some people are not sure. Believe me if I come to think that NS is scum, I would vote for him. I just feel like we are missing things, because he is such the center of attention.

[RachMarie]

I know I have not been on the top of my usual game lately, I have been dealing with work and other issues plus been really groggy with allergies. I have to prepare for my show tonight, but afterwards, I will be working on catching up on this game, and others.

[RachMarie]

Breaking this up into a couple of posts so its not too much of a wall.

Initial Reads:

Bk

After an RVS vote on NS:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: glowball Will explain later.

Not a fan of NS' cantankerousness, as it will probably get him killed, but this wagon has very little going for it.

VOTE: BK201 One of two "RVS and then lurk" people (the other being kassadin), but he's voting for someone that's currently got a lot of non-RVS votes. This is a call to action for you.

Fair enough, but I think you're overreacting. It's been maybe two days since the thread opened and I have been busy.

I'm in 4 mafias right now and I have neglected this one. Imma be active starting tomorrow. Just wanted to let ya guys know!

Looking forward to seeing you busy.

Seems somewhat scummy atm.

Bork

Strong start, questioning people (including me), good push on BK (why did you back off of him BTW?). I like the probing and the general methodical and logical approach.

Fairly strong town read atm.

Chrimi

Bouncing around a bit, but he did that in the game we played together. Definitely looking forward to seeing more from him once he is no longer on limited access.

Null for now.

Glowball

Seems to be asking questions and trying to get discussion going. Looking forward to seeing more from her.

Null leaning town atm.

Kassadin

Lurking 2 posts one an RVS vote on SK one answers the RQS.

Some substance please?

Null leaning to scum atm.

[RachMarie]

LS

Asking questions and trying to get some discussion going. A tad lazy (and you know I will push you LS ), but seems fairly null leaning town for now.

NS

Slow start, a lot of frustration. Starting to ask questions now. Usually too easy a lynch in his games so will be watching especially if he flips town to see who pushed his wagon.

Null atm.

raspberry

Seems to have trouble understanding RVS, more likely a newb tell than a scum tell though. Feel free to ask questions about game mechanics.

Null atm.

SK

Starts off with an odd question to the mod? Can you explain that please?

RVS vote for Kassadin (I presume there is history there), then switches briefly to the NS wagon, then back to Kassadin. Would like to see more posting from him. I did like the encouraging people not to immediately lynch T and P to give them a chance to change their posting style first. I tend to be suspicious of quick bandwagons and quick lynches, especially early on D1.

Null leaning town atm.

T and P

Starts off odd and of course the farting was a bit much. Seems to be tunneling on NS and ignoring the rest of the town. Looking forward to more serious posts and I would recommend looking at the bigger picture.

Null for now.

TF

Seems to be focusing a bit on me, not really paying much attention to others in the town. Has not posted a lot so would like to see more posting from him.

Null for now.

Thomith

Starts some discussion going which is a good thing with the RQS (even if some people feel it is scummy, it did get some discussion going and that important especially this early).

Other than that and a couple of questions, not much substance yet, and looking forward to seeing more.

Null atm.


I know it is a lot of null for now, hopefully over time as more posting happens, I will be able to narrow it down more. ATM I would like to see more from BK.

VOTE: BK

[RachMarie]

Im not too sure T&P atm

HUH? Could you like explain this post a tad?

[RachMarie]

VOTE: Kerrigan Traitor

1. id play 3rd party
2. played few games. Around 4 finished?
3. GMT 12

Im not too sure T&P atm

@NS

With people posting like 3 posts like the above, I am supposed to have a full read on everyone in town already? I am not exactly a miracle worker As for the forced that is probably because I was pushing myself in all my games to come up with a full read as best as possible based on ISOs, because I have not been performing at my best lately. It is really hard to come up with a good solid analysis of the entire town (the big picture), when I am dealing with ISOs like the above and the one BK has.

@ BK

I too want to see some serious posting from you, what you have done so far is not acceptable. Neither is Kassadins acceptable.

[RachMarie]

@Thomith
You were on an easy wagon now you jump off on to SK for being on an easy wagon? Could you explain that a tad more?
Are you sure its not just confirmation bias from previous games? That was how I read the SK vote on Kassadin. Also he is NOT contributing much and does need to be pushed on. I am still waiting for an answer to my question about his last post, and a bit more substance from him. I don't think I am the only one either who would like to see a bit more in the game. Not just from him but others as well.

@BK
I am still waiting for more from you too.

I'm in 4 mafias right now and I have neglected this one. Imma be active starting tomorrow. Just wanted to let ya guys know!

I have been sick and I am in 6 games.

Looks like you are starting to participate though, so for now I will

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Kassadin Get in here and play if you are town and help us nail scum.

[RachMarie]

I know I would have rather had more solid data for my initial reads, but what I was seeing was not much activity and mostly a one train oh let us lynch NS, who was not responding well to the pressure. I felt and I still feel his wagon is scum motivated. This in spite of the fact he is voting for me. I do not do my reads based on who suspects me or who does not suspect me.

I made that mistake in Newbie 1206 and Meta uber buddied me to the point he helped scum win the game. It did not help that the crash happened when it did, and that I did not know to follow the cop and tried to protect two people instead of sticking with the one who was the cop. And of course the other townie left in Lylo was kinda well hard for me to read. He too was suspicious of me BTW. (Hey Elmo).

We needed to get more trains of suspicion and discussion moving so we can better narrow down the town and nail scum. A basically one wagon train of suspicion makes it too easy for scum to hide. I may not have complete succeeded with my goals, but at least we are pushing on others now.

What? No I have never played with Kassadin, you mean he always plays this way?

[RachMarie]

I don't know what happened I posted this in all my games and for some reason it didn't show up here?

I am sorry everyone I really have been sick spending more time in bed than on the computer. I will post more content though, this game does need to move forward.

[RachMarie]

@ mod BK changed his vote over to Thomith in post 153

Fixed

[RachMarie]

i don't like how BK jumped on the wagon, i don't understand "soft defense" and it seems like he is jumping on a kass wagon as it gains speed.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: BK

Note: kass *could* be scum, but either way i think people jumping on the wagon could be scum looking for an easy wagon, i have my eye on SK, Rach and BK for this matter.

Yes Thomith you did.

[RachMarie]

@ Kassadin

Do you have a case on BK or just that he is "getting on your nerves"?

So far you have not given me any reason to take my vote off of you.

[RachMarie]

Reasonless votes seem to be the norm here Thomith. BTW I am getting more of a towny feel from you based on recent postings. Keep pushing on people we need more active discussion from everyone.

FoS at Rasp for the eh comment (what was that supposed to mean?) and for the sheep vote with no reasoning behind it.

[RachMarie]

That is NOT good glow get better soon. I am still hanging in there. Good to see some discussion going.

[RachMarie]

If I counted right BK is now at L-2.

If someone else could check I would appreciate it. I am not used to it taking 7 votes to lynch mostly familiar with newbie games,which only take 5.

[RachMarie]

at mod thanks

BK is at L-1.

I would appreciate it if no one hammers just yet, let us keep discussing things now that discussion is starting. We still have 7 days and a bit of change.

[RachMarie]

@ Thomith
I have not pushed lynching anyone at this point. I am pushing on players to participate because we need discussion going to better figure out who the scum is and who the town is. I do not want us to quick lynch and end the day too early. I want us to scum hunt.

With that said, I think some players are not pulling their weight. I know I have been sick, and have not been at my best either. With that said though, it bothers me we have both Kassadin and Rasp who think they can just sluff off and not really play and get away with it. Yes I see your point about easy lynches, however they could just as easily be scum, and if they are town they are definitely not helping us at all here.

[RachMarie]

uggh typo slough it off not sluff it off

[RachMarie]

iirc someone called glowball town for posting some theory. then someone said it was just theory. then LS said it was scummy to denounce town reads, which is a bit of a misrep since it was just theory. then I replied to LS.

I'm not misrepping anything. TheFool said Glowball's posts were townie. T&P said that they weren't because he had just been posting about theory and theory discussion is null. How am I misrepping anything? Even if it was "just theory" it's still a denunciation, which is scummy. Town reads no matter the reason help a townie find the scum, so scum will do anything to keep doubt in a townie's head. Denouncing an unreasonable town read is just as scummy as denouncing a reasonable one.

Also Glowball posted more than just theory when TheFool said that, so if anything T&P is the one doing the misrepping.

I still don't understand why you had to comment. I wasn't talking to you; I was talking to T&P. Why did you feel the need to talk for T&P?

You mean this one LS? It sort of got lost in the shuffle of the Thomith vs BK Post Flurry.

I too, would like to hear more (non farting comments) from T an P they have sort of disappeared a tad. And LS I can see a point here about the denouncing of a town read as scummy. I will take a closer look at that interaction.

[RachMarie]

I have an eye appointment monday again don't know how long this will last but I am determined to contribute please forgive an errors in spelling

I have a strong town read on LS although I disagree with his posts on some levels
Scum readson Rach, BK, and Thomith and I'm keeping my vote on Thomith
T&P doesn't seem any scummier to me than rasp or the fool tbh they are all on the same level
I don't know what to think of SK and NS so nulls

Probably going to have to re read because this medication is making me drowsy but the wagon that built on BK definitely has scum on it. It could have been bussing which was my first reaction especially with thomithvs bk ot it could have been scum pushing an easy mislynch I have to examine it closer. I feel like there is a lot of info here I could dig into if my life wasn't so ridiculous.

All I ask is no lynches until after monday please.

I think we can respect this, we are not up on deadline yet, and it would give me more time to get back in to top shape as well. Let's keep discussion going and not hammer just yet.

[RachMarie]

@LS you do realize that Glow is a she? I think I get what you mean here but it is a bit confusing?

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying that when Glow did her post on the NS/Thomith interaction, she not only discussed theory, but also stated information about her read on Thomith? And that is why you are saying that what T and P were doing was more than just denouncing a theory point by another player?

[RachMarie]

I will take a closer look at it LS, its worth checking out, not ready to move my vote over yet however.


@Bork I am getting a fairly solid towny read on you from looking at your ISO. Is there any questions you want to ask for clarification? I would be happy to answer them.

[RachMarie]

@Thomith
I always push on inactives for a simple reason if they are scum they need to be pushed and not allowed to lurk their way to victory, if they are town they need to get in and help town. Lurking is anti town even if it is done by town players and needs to be addressed. In this case its clear we are stuck with a player who won't participate in the game unfortunately. I think there is more hope for getting more from Rasp though, and I do not want to see that get lost in the shuffle.

Since BK is not at L-1 anymore, and there is no hope of getting anywhere with Kassadin.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: BK

[RachMarie]

I think I made it clear when I commented earlier I do not want to see a lynch just yet either especially since I am starting to get well enough to focus on the games, plus Glow asked for us to give her til after her doc appt on Monday which I think is a reasonable request especially with so many semi lurkers and outright lurkers in the game. I feel we do not have the whole picture.

BK was my strongest initial scummy read case coming up soon.

[RachMarie]

I thought I put him at L-2? I thought he was at L-3 before I voted?

then I will
UNVOTE:

With the number of lurkers and semi lurkers in this game L-1 is too high a risk for a lynch.

[RachMarie]

We have T and P who are kinda here sometimes. I really am not sure yet what they would do. They are fairly chaotic.

We have Chrimi who is on V/LA but periodically posts. Though I am pretty sure he would check votes before voting.

We have LS who tends to be a tad lazy though I am pretty sure he would check esp since hes focused on T and P.

We have Rasp (oh just posting to let you know I am still here)

And then there is Kassadin who voted for someone last time because the person got on his nerves?

Can you see why I might be hesitant to have someone on L-1 before we are ready to lynch?

[RachMarie]

@ Thomith
We have 5 days and tomorrow is Monday, when a player asks that we not lynch til after Monday, because of a serious condition, I think we can give that player the respect to do that, regardless of where we place the player in our personal scum-town reads. So yeah I am a bit tentative for a good reason. If we had hours instead of days, it would be different.

[RachMarie]

@BK
You would have to ask him that we do not talk at all about this game since we are both in it. And it is ongoing. I am sure once the game is over he will have plenty to say about how I played.

[RachMarie]

NS - His early game actions.
BK - Piling suspicion on him seems to have made him nervous. Which is scummy~

kill

Could you two please TRY at least to play? /end of rant/

[RachMarie]

@LS
You make a fairly solid case here, I will ISO him again and take a closer look at him.

@Bork
Do you have anything else about the rest of the town by now? Any other potential scum suspects?

@BK
Do you have anything else besides your back and forth with Thomith like maybe do some scum hunting?

@SK
Now that the game has gone on a bit longer and more posting has happened what do you think of the back and forth tween Thomith and BK, about the lurking and semi lurking? About LS's case on T and P?

[RachMarie]

Rasp commenting on how NS doesn't post much in his posts is a rather pot and kettle situation I mean one post Rasp did was eh...

(*Rasp is male BTW just FYI)

Though I would like to see more postings from a number of people in this game, but it maybe a case of want in one hand and well you know in the other unfortunately.

[RachMarie]

So basically your case on me Bork is based on my playstyle which is I play methodically and logically and I let people know where I stand and if it changes based on more game posts I let them know that too?

[RachMarie]

Would it surprise you that I said similar things in Newbie 1206 where I was the doc?

At times it annoyed Uber and believe me Chrimi and LS remember Uber I am sure. I am a big picture person and it bothers me to see so little discussion by this time especially with so many people not really posting.

[RachMarie]

@Thomith I was making the point that the things he was commenting on are part of my general playstyle and that I did them in Newbie 1206. I am sorry if that was not clear.

For that you want to vote me? I am a cautious player. I felt that lynching someone before today to give Glow a chance as she requested seems a bit unfair. We do have some serious loose cannons in this game like Rasp and Kassadin so yes L-1 seemed too risky. We still have 4 days and change why are you in such a big hurry to lynch someone, especially after Glow specifically asked for the time til after her doc appt?

[RachMarie]

I had not noticed that til after our interchange TBH. Still my point is we do have a lot of loose cannons in this game after all look at T and P too.

[RachMarie]

Look at Kassadin's useless posts(all 2 of them(rvs, and rqs don't count) then look at the couple of people (soft) defending him saying "he always plays like this, that's fine".

I never said "it's fine" -- what I said is this is what can be expected.

@mod are you planning on prodding NS?

[RachMarie]

Phillip/2birds1stone here, I'm not really seeing the big deal about BK201, despite what my other head thinks/said; the only scummy thing he's done is deflect attention to lurkers, and I've done that as town before -- there's a fine line between deflecting and pushing a wagon whilst under fire.

Having said that, we think we should ignore lurkers today -- if they don't get shot tonight, we can start lynching them, but right now, we need to keep some alive so as to give potential vigs something to prove their existance with.

We honestly don't see anything scummy about denouncing town reads. Scum getting obvtowned sucks [chocolate salty] balls, especially in LyLo; mid-strong townreads should probably be disputed just as hotly as scumreads. We do, however, admit to being wrong about glowball being only theory.

Also, we didn't "sheep away the instant you called us out on it", and no, you cannot expect good cases just out of RVS, if you could expect good cases just out of RVS, town would win 100% of the time. You look at what happened between the NS case and our next post, and if you can say that any sane townie could've stuck by that case given the interesting

shit

^* that happened in between those two posts, then you've got a serious case of hardocre tunnelvision.

However, your tunnel on us does seem town-motivated; it's a fairly useless tunnel for scum to be locked into.

I, Phillip/2birds1stone don't feel particularly motivated/compelled to vote anyone; however, Terrance wants to sheep the Rach wagon.

VOTE: RachMarie

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

*Censored by Terrance

That does not seem like a loose cannon to you Thomith??

[RachMarie]

Meanwhile I am feeling a bit more confident about BK. He has responded well under pressure.

Kassadin is a lost cause, but I think Rasp we might have a chance with pressuring, and there is a good chance he is scum. He has contributed almost nothing to the discussion (the eh comment is a good point).

VOTE: Raspberry

[RachMarie]

Oh my god reading their posts were annoying. Please tell me that's going to stop. ;_;

Yeah, I agree...
I:

Not much here what about others? I will grant that T and P's comments were rather annoying at this point, but there are 13 players in the game.

@Rasp: Thoughts on the game so far? You haven't done much.

I'm following along, but it's going pretty slowly.

First time LS pushes and thats what we got?

raspberrylicious: just a fore warning I do not going for the quote with a vote thing. If you quoted something and placed a vote I want you to explain how that quote affected your vote. Especially so early it seems like the vote had a reason, which means it's not random

so I'd love an explanation

.

Oh, I didn't see the part where you asked me a question.

He was the first person to post

or

vote and he did it for no reason. I kept my vote on him because he has been posting short spurts and phrases that don't add much.

I'm fine with a wagon. He's the only person that is acting out of the ordinary. (y'know, other than T&P)

umm this is scum hunting? out of the ordinary? Could you be a tad more specific why you suspect NS and T and P? The I am fine with a wagon also sets off my scumdar sounds like I don't care who we lynch just lynch someone.

@NS: A. Ordinary posts are not just a sentence or two. But what I mean is that you are acting certainly different from everyone else in the manner of posting.
B. That's what I meant.
C. They're just being annoying, which doesn't mean they should be lynched.
D. I think it is unnecessary.

It certainly does change things since you were just poking fun at your girlfriend.

You keep missing the point of RVS which NS pointed showed you the link for twice IIRC.

C) But I should be lynched? Why?

D) Why does my relationship to my votee matter?

C. Because you're the only one I find suspicious, and that's that.
D. You were just playing with your girlfriend when you voted her, right?

Again it was an RVS vote.

Eh...

And this contributes to the discussion how exactly and shows you are scum hunting how?

VOTE: Vote: BK

Just throw a vote in and don't need to give a reason eh?

I'm here, just so everybody knows. ;-;

Total fluff where is the meat (like maybe reasons for your BK vote?)

rasp any scumreads?

BK and NS.

Now Thomith pushes and gets two names but no reasons?

NS - His early game actions.
BK - Piling suspicion on him seems to have made him nervous. Which is scummy~

You have to do better than this?

I think he is slipping under the radar here and needs to be closer examined. Hopefully this leads to more discussion instead of my worthless pressure on Kassadin.

[RachMarie]

@ BK

It is frustrating especially when you cant use anything in an ongoing game and sometimes the best thing is in that ongoing game I can really relate here. Basically the only game I really can refer to with any real depth is Newbie 1206 because of that. Still overall you really did handle the pressure well. It is making me get more of a towny feel for you. I feel pretty good atm where my vote is.

@Thomith

Sometimes caution is a good thing. I remember one of the early newbie games I read for research (lost in the crash unfortunately), they had a quick bandwagon on an RVS vote and ended the day like on page TWO or something it was unreal and of course a total mislynch. Even with mass claim at the end in Lylo and the cop doing his best due to a rather VI player who lurked like mad voting for the cop and ending in a scum win. The whole game I believe was like 20 pages or something like that it was something.

Another newbie game I read at that time also mislynched really early some dude came along when the lynchee was at L-1 and dropped a hammer out of the blue and everyone was WTF?? That one was one of the ones NS modded. Can't remember the number but had hohum, CCV, Galaxy and some others in it.

So if I am a tad cautious I have reasons for it maybe with this being a non newbie game I don't need to be as cautious, but some of our players make me a tad nervous by their playstyle.

[RachMarie]

^^
MAJOR Scummy Points here

[RachMarie]

LOL LS you mean the mega walls yeah not gonna do those any more I keep it short and sweet now, and keep walls to only when I can't avoid them. Also you may see more of me now I am not as sick as I was no more fever cooking my brain.

Plus I have been really frustrated I thought I was annoyed with Gun, but at least he TALKED.

[RachMarie]

@BK
Looks like now the votes are piling up on me fast. There is probably scum on my wagon as well.

I have a fairly towny read on Bork and Thomith, so that leaves NS (who is being uber lurky), T and P, and Kassadin.

While I look at their ISOs again and see which one I feel is most scummy to make a case on, Ponder this. Part of the issue of this game is the extremely low level of activity as a couple people have pointed out.

Would it make more sense to go for someone who is scummy who actually is not participating much or someone who is fairly active? Seems to me that there are others who a much more solid case could be made on who have not helped town one iota in scum hunting. I think a couple other people have commented on this as well. The town is not going to get much information if this continues at this rate.

[RachMarie]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... rt_order=d

Might take a look at that while you are thinking.

[RachMarie]

@ Bork
Him voting with no reason just jumping on the wagon is clearly opportunistic and scummy. In every game I have read plus in 1206 since I can't talk about ongoing games, people call someone on that and call it scummy. What is so special about Kassadin that he is allowed to play like this and not be called on it. When asked for a reason he said nothing about me, instead he said he was jumping on the wagon to jump on the wagon. Yet if anyone else did that they would be seriously questioned and called scummy for it?

I would love to know how to deal with it besides lynching? Could you expand on that further BTW? And how are we to figure out if he is scum or not if we just shrug our shoulders and give him a total free pass?

That being said, I do agree that there is hope with Rasp. and I am going to

UNVOTE:

[RachMarie]

I will be gone out of town for a few hours but will be back this evening (California time), at that point I will do some ISO research and make a case that does not involve Kassadin. And I feel that we can push harder on Rasp and get more discussion from him to better determine his slot. I will also look at voting patterns as well.

BTW Bork and Thomith I feel both of you are likely to be town, even though you have been butting heads so much.

I am feeling more confident that BK is probably town too.


@ Glow are you back yet? We kind of held things over for your doc appt, but the clock is starting to tick and we do need to move things along now. A no lynch is not a good thing especially on D1.


Pedit @ Rasp
Why are we allowing Kassadin to get away with a "I no talk" meta, but we are considering NS scummy for his lurky meta? A bit of a double standard there. Does anyone have a substantial case on him or are we just playing favorites here?

[RachMarie]

Ok I am back from the doc in Oakdale, now will go through ISOs and get back with a vote and a case.

@LS it is a bit hard to get much content when we have so little of it posted to actually analyze. How do you analyze a one word post like eh, for example? But I will do my best.

[RachMarie]

unvote

Reading now. So this game is a thing, huh?


SPESHUL NOTE for those who have never played with me before: I'm totally, absolutely, frantically useless Day One. My logic n stuff never kicks in till after a flip or three.

The more you know.

at mod the vote count is wrong he unvoted a few posts before he requested replacement.

Welcome to the madness of very little posting Shotgun.

[RachMarie]

@LS: I've made it clear where I stand on the first post. Quite honestly, this is my first experience with a hydra: he's not contributed anything of value, and while that's bad, he's admitted that it's because the other "head" hasn't shown up yet; I won't tolerate that excuse for too long.

Spoiler: *ahem*

They'll probably just fart in your general direction.

Nope, just your direction...

No, seriously, we've got something.

I hate random questions, but if I don't answer, everyone will point and call me scummy.

a) I prefer being 3rd party. I'm really, really good at it.

2) I lost count at 40 games. And I haven't updated my wiki in forever.

D) Pacific time (GMT-7 or -8)

So, you say that you don't like RQS, but decide to participate because you don't want to be called scummy. Also, this is your first post after we had our nice little fart sketch. However, you didn't vote us for playstyle until someone else did it first.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nobody Special

3- what is your timezone and how many times a day can we expect you to be posting?

Phillip's being a dick and refusing to answer the first two questions, but:
We're in +9:30 time zone, with one or two posts a day.

Glowball's recent posts are pretty townesque.

... Glowball was just giving theory discussion in his last few posts before you said that... theory discussion is null.

Dude. TheFool, I don't see where you're getting at all.

And lynching the most obv. town person in this game is NOT a good idea.

After all, she's the one getting us somewhere.

VOTE: TheFool

... We both agree with the majority of TheFool's post, actually..

. although I (Terrance) think that there's also the possibility of scum defending their scum buddy.

Phillip/2birds1stone, however, thinks assosciative tells are worthless when they're between two people who know each other well.

We still prefer the Nobody Special wagon. And not just because we started it.

People are missing something focusing too much on the back and forth discussion tween the two of them in the posts. There are varying ways hydras choose to play and some do this style of back and forth in the posts. I certainly would not view that as scummy and would not expect anyone else to do that either.

However look at the bold text here this looks like buddying up to TF though he goes back to his wagon he started (with no real basis for voting for NS in the first place.

He started a wagon and never really made a case on NS.

He then later when it did not pick up much steam and people (primarily LS) started questioning him, instead of building an actual case, backed down and said well there was not much going on.

Could that perhaps be, because he knew NS was town? Which the only way he could know FOR SURE is because he is scum.

Phillip/2birds1stone here, this is a bit of a prod-dodge (you'd think that living with my other head would make this a lot easier, but oh well).

However, so as not to make this totally worthless, something we both agreed on unanimosly while playing

Mortal Kombat

when we should have been posting here:

T&P, convince me to vote NS. Because what you've posted so far about him is not convincing.

Four pages into the game, we weren't going to be particularly convincing. Seriously.

Also, on reading, I no longer believe NS to be the best wagon, there are some interesting things going on now. Uh, I'm pretty sure we'll have our actual post and new vote tomorrow.

Total fluff post where he backed off the NS wagon, and promises more later. (Still waiting on that more BTW?)

Phillip/2birds1stone here, I'm not really seeing the big deal about BK201, despite what my other head thinks/said; the only scummy thing he's done is deflect attention to lurkers, and I've done that as town before -- there's a fine line between deflecting and pushing a wagon whilst under fire.

Having said that, we think we should ignore lurkers today -- if they don't get shot tonight, we can start lynching them, but right now, we need to keep some alive so as to give potential vigs something to prove their existance with.

We honestly don't see anything scummy about denouncing town reads. Scum getting obvtowned sucks [chocolate salty] balls, especially in LyLo;

mid-strong townreads should probably be disputed just as hotly as scumreads. We do, however, admit to being wrong about glowball being only theory.

Also, we didn't "sheep away the instant you called us out on it", and no, you cannot expect good cases just out of RVS, if you could expect good cases just out of RVS, town would win 100% of the time. You look at what happened between the NS case and our next post, and if you can say that any sane townie could've stuck by that case given the interesting

shit

^* that happened in between those two posts, then you've got a serious case of hardocre tunnelvision.

However, your tunnel on us does seem town-motivated; it's a fairly useless tunnel for scum to be locked into.

I, Phillip/2birds1stone don't feel particularly motivated/compelled to vote anyone; however, Terrance wants to sheep the Rach wagon.

VOTE: RachMarie

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

*Censored by Terrance

Again look at the bolded parts here. Town does not know who the potential PRs are, we may or may not have a vig to "take care of the lurkers". Mentioning NK seems scummy as well. As town, our focus should be on DAYTIME scum hunting, not trying to figure out night actions. Nothing scummy about denouncing town reads? WHAT?? And the chocolate salty balls reference makes no sense here. IioA. Finally the oh we really don't want to scum hunt and help town we will just sheep the currently building wagon. That is scummy.

I had not noticed that til after our interchange TBH. Still my point is we do have a lot of loose cannons in this game after all look at T and P too.

At risk of sounding stupid [you are stupid, Terrance], what's a loose cannon?

@T&P: Yeah, it does suck when scum is obvtowned into LYLO. It also sucks when there are few legitimate town reads to go around because scum keeps on denouncing them.

Would you rather have a bunch of wrong town reads, or few accurate town reads?

I, Phillip/2birds1stone don't feel particularly motivated/compelled to vote anyone; however, Terrance wants to sheep the Rach wagon.

VOTE: RachMarie

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

*Censored by Terrance

Alright you have a decent case LS. @Chrimi, I also don't like when people park on a wagon and leave. this above quote + LS's case is why imma vote the hydra. I don't like how you can throw out disclaimers in case things go bad by saying for example "I don't really want to vote this person, but my other head does, etc etc". A hydra should act as one being, not two people that share a vote and can save themselves with disclaimers.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: T&P

Phillip/2birds1stone here, to clarify: it's not a disclaimer. Well, to a degree it is, but it's not a "I think this wagon is a bad idea" disclaimer. It's a "meh, I don't actually feel particularly strongly about anyone atm", with Terrance going "Eeeeeeeee, killing time, let's lynch Rach". I'm like, "sure, she's as good a day one lynch as anyone".

Unfortunately, we're only Canadian, we can't fully agree 100% of the time,

but Terrance is not acting in contradiction with my opinion, and we do fully stand by each other's actions. That's why we're not voting BK201, because we want to act in a way we're both okay with.

Shit.
VOTE: T&P

Saw something.

... You did? Enlighten us, what did you see? Was it a... wait... no, we won't make a fart joke here... As much as we'd like to.

Rasp is a horrible wagon. Both Rasp and Kass need to live until day two, then we can start lynching them.

1. A loose cannon is someone who is rather chaotic and does not behave in a predictable and rational manner, sorry for not answering that earlier, but I missed it.

2. What on earth does your nationality have to do with it TOTAL FLUFF. Also you are wording things to make it seem boohoo I am a hyrda and you all are using it against me (AtE and WIFOM). You are not scummy because you are a hydra, you are scummy because you are not scum hunting and not adding to the discussion with the rest of the town to help them scum hunt.

3. What?? We should not lynch them today lets kill them tomorrow? And I am not going to build a case still.

Okay, there are three days left in deadline, and there's one wagon which looks like lynching.

If we wait till L-1 for Rach to claim, we may not have time to assemble a new wagon.

We truly hate to no-lynch day one, we assume we're all familiar with the maths behind this.

So, we don't feel we're out of line in asking Rach to claim.

Pushing a claim before someone is at L-1 and has someone with intent to hammer? Scummy. Especially the part of we may not have time to assemble a new wagon. This sounds like PR fishing to me, since the most common reason someone is not hammered after a claim is because they claim a PR.

Would you rather have a bunch of wrong town reads, or few accurate town reads?

:/ I don't see why you don't get it. You're not a town white knight for destroying people's town reads. It doesn't work like that.

... uh, that's a little harsh, but maybe we use the term 'white knight' a little differently. Meh, we honestly don't see any reason not to argue town reads just as fiercly as scum reads, to not debate them cuts down on an avenue of discussion, and we honestly don't see any benefit to letting a townread we disagree with slide.

I am seeing what you are seeing, I never said I didn't see more.

Dude, quit stalling the lynch. You're claiming to have information on us, and it makes people not want to lynch anyone else (Rach) yet. You're not revealing what that information is, which is putting people off lynching us.

Meh, guess we found Rach's partner, when she flips scum, our vote's on you.

Lynch happy are we? On the surface this sounds like pushing for information on a read to insure the town has what it needs which seems towny, but combined with the rest of the stuff could be one of two things:

1. Scum hunt for me so I do not have to which is scummy.
2. Pushing the lynch to end discussion and setting up someone for D 2. You are trying to control and limit discussion which is not a town thing to do but a scummy one.

Now that I have made my case and please forgive the huge wall.

VOTE: T and P If I counted the votes correctly, this puts him at L-2.

[RachMarie]

I am not completely sold he is a tracker (if we have one that is), since only scum know which PRs we have, but I want to get back up verification on what T and P said about a vig dealing with Rasp and Kassadin? Since I am rather suspicious of this slot, and I have no experience really with the vig role other than a brief marathon game which consisted of the confirmed vig hammering me after scum NKed NS and set me up for a fall. (Scum won that game BTW). This Open game is my very first non newbie game, so I am not as familiar with some of the roles outside of cop, JK, and doc. Is what T and P saying about vig accurate?

[RachMarie]

edit by way of posting

I am not completely sold he is a tracker (if we have one that is), since only scum know which PRs we have, and I can't CC tracker because I am not a tracker, but I want to get back up verification on what T and P said about a vig dealing with Rasp and Kassadin?

[RachMarie]

So he is being truthful on that then. I don't like the screaming survivalist attitude, I am not sold on this not being a fake claim, and the fact he has not built a case on his primary suspect, but I am in a quandary here I do not want to lynch an unCCed PR either.

@ Chrimi and LS
You two have been the primary movers behind this wagon on T and P. Any new thoughts since he has claimed a PR role? Do you feel its a fake claim or an accurate one? I really feel uneasy here if he is being truthful, we should not lynch him.

[RachMarie]

@ Chrimi
Could you please answer my question about the case on T and P with the unCCed PR claim its kinda important.


@ Rasp
You may feel since NS replaced out and Shotgun (who is definitely NOT a lurker in his meta) replaced in that my question is now moot, but humor me anyways and answer it. I do not ask questions just to ask questions I have reasons for asking them, and I do not like having my questions ignored. (which is why even though I suspect T and P of being scum, I apologized for missing his question and answered when I caught it while building a case on them).

To remind you of the question,

since we are excusing Kassadin based on his "I no talk" meta, why were you viewing NS as scummy?

Seems a double standard there. You did not build a case on him,

and he too is an easy lynch since his meta is that of a power lurker.

I am not 100% sure that NS (now Shotgun) is town, but I get a fairly solid towny feel (just a gut feeling atm not enough to build a town case on) from that slot, and am looking forward to Shotgun clarifying it more since Shotgun is an active poster (we need more of those in this game.)

[RachMarie]

@ Rasp
You may feel since NS replaced out and Shotgun (who is definitely NOT a lurker in his meta) replaced in that my question is now moot, but humor me anyways and answer it. I do not ask questions just to ask questions I have reasons for asking them, and I do not like having my questions ignored. (which is why even though I suspect T and P of being scum, I apologized for missing his question and answered when I caught it while building a case on them).

To remind you of the question,

since we are excusing Kassadin based on his "I no talk" meta, why were you viewing NS as scummy?

Seems a double standard there. You did not build a case on him,

and he too is an easy lynch since his meta is that of a power lurker.

I am not 100% sure that NS (now Shotgun) is town, but I get a fairly solid towny feel (just a gut feeling atm not enough to build a town case on) from that slot, and am looking forward to Shotgun clarifying it more since Shotgun is an active poster (we need more of those in this game.)

I think that kassadin is just being troll town.

HUH???
I did not ask about Kassadin I asked about NS (who was replaced by Shotgun? WTF?)

[RachMarie]

i am a very slight town read but you would be more willing for me to die than one of the "lurkers"?
these weird statements that come from you, and both yours and rach's tunnel on kass makes me suspect both of you.

I have a towny feel on you, but you are misrepping me here Thomith,

I said I was annoyed with Kassadin and his meta

and have been looking at other players, since the town has spoken that Kassadin, even if he is scum, is not to be lynched. I think we should rename him the Rock who I only saw in one move but in the entire two hours he mostly spoke one word sentences and I think a couple times said a 3 or 4 word sentence. Kass really should get a pic of the Rock for his avatar it so fits. I also said I felt players (yes I am looking at YOU Rasp ahem), are doing a double standard saying it is ok to not lynch Kassadin for his useless meta even as a policy lynch, but say NS has to be scummy? Hello that is a double standard.

@Shotgun
How do you feel about people using Kassadin's "I no talk" meta as an excuse to give him a total free pass even if it means town loses if we get to Lylo, and saying your slot is scummy?

[RachMarie]

Actually, BK is a good lynch.
VOTE: BK

All aboard!

at mod Shotgun switched over to BK

That being said, we have 1 day and 11 hours and and no lynch is NOT good for town so :
UNVOTE:

VOTE: BK


Pedit it is the whole double standard and Rasp refusing to answer the question that bothers me Bork.

[RachMarie]

IF we have a vig, let us hope we do, or we may be saddled with Kassadin in Lylo. I have not played a full game, just the marathon one, with a vig role before though, so not as familiar with it.

[RachMarie]

@ Glow it was T and P and part of my case on them the post they mentioned it was

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4032943

[RachMarie]

yes it is L-1

We are really running out of time here and having MS down for several hours did not help.

Chrimi Will you think of moving your vote from T and P, I can understand still being suspicious but we are down to a few hours here. NL is worse by far for town that a mislynch even.

Rasp planning on putting a vote down anytime soon? I told you I would push on you, Kassadin is pretty much hopeless but you have posted at least SOME content.

[RachMarie]

oops I missed that Chrimi unvoted

Still we need Chrimi and Rasp to get in here and vote. No Lynch is NOT good.

[RachMarie]

Boys could we like focus here? Right now we should be trying to provide what we can for the town, not bickering.

Plus atm we are still serious risk of a no lynch here. We need everyone on board right now giving what we can before deadline.

[RachMarie]

@ BK

Besides Kassadin and Thomith, do you have any thoughts on the rest of the town?


@ Thomith
Besides BK, Kassadin, and myself, do you have any thoughts on the rest of the town?

[RachMarie]

Ok I admit I was wrong about Rasp being scum but I find it highly suspicious that Kassadin did not die.

As for Bork, he was a very solid town and seemed to be hinting at a possible soft claim? (There are ways to deal with Kassadin). So I could see reasons for him being NKed which have nothing to do with me.

I want to know who our tracker tracked.

Also rather opportunistic of Shotgun to jump on a wagon like that.

Will be taking a good look at the wagon on BK which I think will give us far more info than the NKs.

[RachMarie]

@ Shotgun
BK did NOT want to vote me he voted for me because of deadline to avoid a NL. major misrep there of BK. I also found your comment about Kassadin rather odd? How do YOU know what Kassadin wants?

Pedit seems Kassadin has spoken his usual about 3 words.

@LS
I am finding it harder to make a case without the huge walls, also IIRC I made a case on T and P, they then claimed tracker. Reason I voted for BK, even if he was not my strongest read was because of the deadline looming and the other choice at that time was me and self voting is lame. Plus most of D 1 I was running a temp of about 103/104 F so I was definitely not at my best. No one was interested in Kassadin save for BK everyone assumed if a Vig existed that the Vig would shoot Kassadin, I really thought Rasp was possibly scum, and I was mistaken on that. I had planned on pushing on Rasp today and get more clarification on him.

@ T and P
I want to know who you tracked. I am not as sure of your claim, but so far there is no CC, so even though you were my number one suspect, I will have to go with looking at others.

Pedit you answered.

For now since everyone seems to be voting, and since no one ever plans on doing anything about Kassadin...

VOTE: Shotgun

[RachMarie]

^That doesn't make you Town btw.

@Mod: Do Mafias all horde around for one person in order to kill? Or do they just choose who goes to kill someone? i.e: We choose RachMarie to go and kill Borker

BTW I did NOT kill Bork. More setting me up to avoid people looking at you Shotgun?

@ Everyone else
Look at his (Shotgun's) ISO.

1. Confirmation bias
2. His pushing of who the Vig should shoot, which probably led to Rasp getting shot instead of Kassadin.
3. Buddying up majorly to Kassadin
4. The caps rage about the mafia not getting to pick who gets the roles, seemed rather forced to me

[RachMarie]

I am still working on that LS, though I am suspicious of Kassadin especially with his eagerness to just jump on the wagon. Normally I go with one on one off the wagon, however with 3 scum it is quite possible for 2 on a wagon and this wagon seemed to grow awfully fast. I always find quick bandwagoning rather suspicious.

Pedit

I defensed NS because I felt they were using a double standard

(ie Kass is useless but that is just his meta so we put up with it, but NS is scum BECAUSE of his meta.) I also felt that a big deal was being made about his RVS vote which was just that.

I was primarily looking at Rasp during those interactions not NS.

As for it being opportunistic, I had concerns about Shotgun, but we were out of time on D 1 so I went with Bk

If anyone wants more of a case on Shotgun, I would be happy to provide it.

[RachMarie]

My strongest town reads in order atm
LS
Chrimi
TF

Of the 3, LS is my strongest and the other two are more gut reads because they have not posted as much.

[RachMarie]

Sorry Rach, I'd rather not you waste time on me. That means, don't do my ISO.

CAPSRAGE??? AAAAAAHHHH I WAS SO FUCKING STUPID AT THAT TIME.

Wait a minute... you are telling someone not to do an ISO on you?

[RachMarie]

@ Everyone else
Look at his (Shotgun's) ISO.

1. Confirmation bias
2. His pushing of who the Vig should shoot, which probably led to Rasp getting shot instead of Kassadin.
3. Buddying up majorly to Kassadin
4. The caps rage about the mafia not getting to pick who gets the roles, seemed rather forced to me

add number 5 Coaching.

[RachMarie]

I was focusing on a lynch on T and P based on their posts, then he claimed tracker. That is why he was not lynched and BK was.

Why are you fishing for PRs???

That is extremely scummy

[RachMarie]

WIFOM

I do not want to focus on PRs, I want to focus on scum hunting, and your reactions are extremely telling.

[RachMarie]

I think he is role fishing and his reaction to my voting him is rather telling.

Glow is right this is more scummy than towny. It is far better for town that the PRs stay hidden so they can do their jobs.

[RachMarie]

If you really are Shotgun WHY have you played like this?

If the mod does not confirm you my vote will go right back here though.


UNVOTE:

[RachMarie]

Did you even THINK about the fact you could have gotten the Vig outted with your shenanigans?

[RachMarie]

Meanwhile I meant what I said if the mod does not confirm you, then my vote goes back on you for a fake claim.

And I am going to look through others and see what I can do about nailing scum.

[RachMarie]

Look at your play in this game and maybe you could see why I might think that. Though most likely Elmo will confirm it. Seems to be the way this game has been going.

[RachMarie]

To answer your question Shotgun, now that we have gone through this wild goose chase, I am going to go back to my original plan and look at the people who were on the D 1 wagons. A very logical place to look for scum.

[RachMarie]

BK201 - 7 - (SaintKerrigan, glowball, Lastsurvivor, drmyshotgun, Thomith, RachMarie, rasberrylicious) (L-0)
RachMarie - 5 - (Terrance And Phillip, BK201, borkjerfin, TheFool, Kassadin) (L-2)

BK, Bork, Rasp, and Shotgun have been conf town.

Thomith is V/LA so will look at him later.

T and P have claimed Tracker.

That leaves SK (who was replaced by Om of the Nom), Glow, LS, and TF by PoE. I will be looking at their ISOs

[RachMarie]

Oh yeah I forgot Kassadin...

[RachMarie]

@ LS
Why are you claiming? You are not even being wagoned?

Are you saying that you investigated T and P? And found them scum?

@Thomith I stated that the town did not want to PL Kassadin, and that his meta is extremely antitown. I believe I also said I do not know why the Vig did not shoot him instead of Rasp. Do you really want Kassadin and his "I no talk" meta in a potential Lylo? Of course I would have supported the Vig shooting him.

Vig if you are out there, PLEASE do NOT Claim the town needs you.

Thomith you tunneled incredibly on BK and pushed his lynch and mine over Kassadin. Why are you buddying up to him so much? It looks suspicious.

[RachMarie]

Thomith SK was replaced by Om of the Nom.

Pedit

oh and could you explain why you checked me and not T and P?

[RachMarie]

Yeah Thomith but that does not rule out that Kass could be scum he has just as much chance to pull that role as anyone else. His meta sucks and hes a bad choice to have in Lylo.

I thought I was at L-1 though?

[RachMarie]

Ok checked the votes again it is a lynch

Good luck and good job town, and next time I am sick I am going V/La it has really cost me in all my games Bah post

[RachMarie]

LS used his one shot cop power to find out I was scum thats why I was lynched Om.

Great game all

Kass grrr why did you have to be the vig LOL.

[RachMarie]

Thanks Elmo it was great to see you on the mod end of things ♥

[RachMarie]

I am fine with releasing the scum QT .

And as you can see I was not lying about not killing Bork T and P did the do lol

Was kinda different being scum though.