Mini 1452 - Inevitable Mafia (Game Over)

[BROseidon]

Up to snuff and gots me an ace machine!

[BROseidon]

VOTE: They May Take Our Lives But They Will Never Take Our Freedom

Yes, I will be using your full name. Deal with it.

[BROseidon]

Radiant is town.

Discuss.

Absolutely maybe.

[BROseidon]

DBK already covered why I took it as a joke, hence a joke response.

Now on a more serious note, am I the only one bothered by:

The only players I know in this game are Jmo and TMT.

Way to throw a pal under the bus then, bro

[BROseidon]

@Rob Interesting point. How does JMO ignoring DBK's post 23 affect your read?

[BROseidon]

BRO - I fail to see the relevance of DBK's #23, if there is one. DBK's #23 was basically "No, you have to explain your read." JMO not reacting to that is not at odds with anything he's done this game.

It's similarly a joking response to the fact that gorckat calling RC town had no grounding at that point. Do you see any substantial difference in how DBK responded and how I responded that would potentially justify JMO for jumping on me but not him?

That's much worse than TMT's actions, which are definitely anti-town

Is this referring to his post 37, or all of his posts?

Apart from the above I don't like the way you are trying to manipulate rob in to voting for tmt.

What makes you think this is manipulation and not just not properly comprehending Rob's argument?

DCLXVI improperly representing Rob's argument and sheeping onto letters as a result seems too reckless to make me think that it's scum motivated. Don't like JMO's shitty meta argument and AtE, though. Very defensive.

VOTE: JMO

[BROseidon]

Telling him he has shit reads on me is an AtE?

No, this is AtE:

Or, il post tomorrow when I'm sober. That woul probably help.

@Rob: What about his post seemed serious, though? I read it as a joke, which is why I'm confused as to why you interpreted it as serious (and why you assign this reading of his response to JMO in your points against him).

[BROseidon]

What I'm saying is that I don't understand why you think that "no u" is a serious response. Seems like just as much of a joke as my "absolutely maybe," in that both are joking ways of saying "What you are saying does not appear to be grounded in any sort of reality." That's why I'm confused as to why you are NOT using it in your case against JMO.

And the reason I called JMO saying that he was drunk an AtE is that drunkeness is a commonly used excuse to absolve one's self of blame for one's actions. "Oh, I said something offensive/did something bad? I didn't mean it b/c I was drunk."

[BROseidon]

I am not in any hurry to lynch a mason claim. That would be really fucking stupid. If we have reason to suspect that the claim is false later, we can lynch then. Fuck, a mason coming forward and saying "he is not a mason" would be worth it if this were a fake claim; I'd trade a mason for scum.

I'm not sure how I feel about JMO defending DCL, but RC's meta argument about him getting angry seems sound.

TMT is still scummy. 0% scumhunting, 100% defensiveness.

VOTE: TMTOLBTWNTOF

wow... what? You bread crumb with a question about an rvs thing with gorcat? what? So you claimed on page 2 that you are masons with gorcat so on page 8 you could be "cleared". What the heck?

What do you make of gorckat being on the DCL wagon?

[BROseidon]

I think a mason number would be good, but not their identities. DBK pointed out the use of having named townies in LyLo, but that's only true if we know how many masons there are as to prevent mason fakeclaims when all the masons are taken out.

[BROseidon]

DBK, question:

Why would scum try to push a lynch on a townie that has claimed mason (which would be what is going on if CoolDog is scum DCL is town)?

[BROseidon]

@BRO: I've witnessed multiple scum jump on a Mason wagon because "the Mason claim didn't make any sense." Scum want Masons dead because it can link them to the other Mason that may claim later in the game, and they get rid of a PR instead of a VT through "convincing" arguments.

Does this typically happen day 1 or on say day 4 or 5?

[BROseidon]

Okay, that's good to know. I think that affects the likelihood of a fakeclaim, as it would probably be easier for scum to claim that a mason claim is a fakeclaim on someone who has done something very scummy and if other power roles have been claimed (and thus a doctor or cop fakeclaim isn't an option). Still, day 2 is a lot earlier than I would have expected for a play like that to have been attempted.

[BROseidon]

Okay, now I'm comfortable taking DCL's claim at face value. Obviously will reconsider if information pops up that contradicts what he's given, but what he's given makes sense.

Really hate what RC did there. Makes 0 fucking sense in terms of town motivation, but also little sense in terms of scum motivation since scum should not be willing to so blatantly trade one person for a mason. Same thing with me wanting to think Cooldog is town - the move is just too blatantly idiotic for me to believe that scum would pull something like that. Does anyone have scum meta on either Cooldog or RC? Do they tend to play very boldly in the day phase as scum?

Like my vote on letters still, and the thing that Yates quoted just further supports scumletters.

@Rob, Cooldog, TMT: Do you still want DCL to reveal a name for his mason partner, or are you fine with what he's given us?

@MOD: Can we get updated vote counts at the top of each page, or an up to date vote count post? Thank you

[BROseidon]

1) Makes it easier for scum to try to weed out other power roles early. Scum can get a mason N1 if they want either way at this point, but if they want to get a stronger PR, not having the second mason claim results in there being a chance that they would still hit a mason.

2) Makes it easier for scum to target masons once masons become a threat. Masons are stronger as the game progresses, because conftown becomes scarier when there are fewer players; scum have fewer players to set up mislynches against. Thus, at a certain point scum do want masons gone, and having the second mason known makes it more likely for this to occur should they not accidentally hit him early.

Tl;dr giving scum more control over when they get the masons killed is bad.

[BROseidon]

Okay, um, wow.

We are not lynching a claimed mason, when, most notably NOBODY HAS COUNTERCLAIMED MASON THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE DCL. Mason is not an unusual role. If there were masons in play and DCL weren't one, we'd already have a counterclaim because who the fuck wouldn't make that trade. Yes, there could just not be masons in play, but that is something we can bring up later should information come in that indicates DCL is lying (ie, the entire group of people not on the DCL wagon at any point claim not mason/flip not mason).

Going on to the scum counterclaim point:

This leads to an interesting point that people are making... the situation that is presented goes as follows:

1) day before lylo mason partner claims
2) Scum counter claims mason
3) town lynches one of the two
4a) If flips town: lynch other in lylo
4b) If flips scum: we just lynched scum

The situation presents a condition where it seems like a mason claiming one day before lylo guarantees that one scum is lynched. But this is not accurate because it makes one fatal assumption that a scum team, that is playing optimally, will never do. That assumption is at point 2, a rational scum team would never, ever, counter claim mason in this situation, because it is certain that one of them will die. Instead the situation will for sure play out like this:

1) day before lylo mason partner claims
2) scum say nothing
3) town lynches non mason
4a) lynch flips scum: yay we got scum, mason dies at night.
4b) lynch town: yay you just lost the mason to a night kill and lynched a townie, welcome to lylo.

this line of reasoning should be completely disregarded and purged from all talk about the masons.

This line of reasoning is fine. It makes us more likely to hit scum at the lynch before lylo, and it limits the scum's options for their NK.

Also, it's not like scum have an unrestricted ability to claim mason. There was most likely scum, and anyone on the DCL lynch who claims mason is obviously lying. There are literally only 6 people in the game who could possibly be mason with DCL, since he can't be mason with himself and he got put to L-1.

1) scum will do that anyway with nigth kills. Also saves a random n1 power role nk. The pr night kill pool decreases naturally on its own, the mason claim is just an n1 protection. IF they decide to not kill the mason for aformentioned wifom reasons, then we have a smaller lynch pool. Your line of argument here falls through.

2) Actually it makes it dramatically fucking harder if DCL flips town. Because that person is basically 100% confirmed, making it nearly fucking impossible for scum to push a lynch for a mason partner claimed by a confirmed (via flip) mason. If dcl does NOT claim his partner right now, then we are introduced with a possible scum counter claim.. at which point we have a 50/50.. that is assuming the scum are stupid enough to counter claim mason at thsi stage in anyway.

1) Scum ideally don't want to hit masons N1. Masons are good NKs on mid-late nights, because they are huge problems in lylo but not huge threats early. Scum ideally want to hit information or protective roles earlier, before information roles can get information or protective roles can successfully protect people. Sure, killing a mason guarantees that scum've done better than hitting a VT, but also guarantees that any information roles are getting information.

2) I don't think you're getting my point. What I'm saying is that a 2nd mason claim now guarantees that we have no masons by the time masons become a useful thing to have, because scum will target the masons once the numbers start dwindling. A second mason claiming now means that it's very likely that the masons will get NK'd as the numbers dwindle. Also, if it's stupid for scum to counterclaim mason, why wouldn't you want them to make that move? A scum counterclaim on mason before lylo is dumb, so obviously we'd want the mason to step forward on the round before that. Just not now.

Also:

also, claiming mason name(s) now shifts the wifom to the scum. DO the town have a doctor? Should we kill the mason? Should we counter claim now? Claiming masons now resolves the situation early so we can analyze and get more information.

Because it's not WIFOM on a doctor which claimed mason to target. Also, again, why the fuck would scum ever counterclaim mason before lylo?

[BROseidon]

In the case of you being mason, there is no benefit whatsoever to the withholding of your partner's identity, because if scum knows you're telling the truth, they'll kill you tonight and then your partner will function as a counterclaimable named townie; mostly useless. However, if you out your partner then you will still die tonight, but then we have a confirmed clear tomorrow to lead us.

No. No. No no no no no no no no no.

Did you not read everything I posted about why he should not do this and why scum won't counterclaim the second mason slot unless the mason claims in LyLo?

@everyone else, stop letting DCL divert attention with the shitty wagon on me. Rob is also a strong contender for partner status, making DCL/Rob potentially two members of a 3 person scumteam. His responses to the pressure on him sucked elephant dick and he doesn't do anything for town except strut around playing passively while acting like his mason claim makes him confirmed town.

Do you have any evidence of this from from their interactions, or is this from you having these two as your two highest scumreads?

[BROseidon]

no, because we need to know if there are masons. We don't want a 2/3 chance of hitting scum.

2/3 is bad? Wat?

As scum, I would absolutely gamble, in a 4 v 3 LYLO, on having a scum bud claim. Get caught out and you are now gonna have a quick 3 v 2 day then go 2 v 1, texbook lylo. Not shabby.

Which is why second mason claims BEFORE LYLO.

@CoolDoG what is your opinion of TMT?

@TMT what is your opinion of CoolDoG?

[BROseidon]

I meant town sorry. See if we let all of this drag out then we have th possibility of a 3 mason claims on the same day in which 2 will by right and one will be scum. Again, all of the wifom can be avoided by lynching dcl today.

If we have 3 mason claims we lynch the one that isn't a mason. At worst we get a 50% chance from 4 mason claims, with a successful lynch setting up the next day's lynch.

"When do we lynch a living DCL/partner" is the question we need to answer today. If we are going to let DCL pass, are we going to hang him tomorrow? Day 3? If so, then we have let scum dictate the future of the game and we need to take that control back now and leave them unknowing of the future.

Who says we have to? We can set a lynch timer (if neither mason is dead by day N, we lynch DCL), but then also set that as a time when an investigative role can come forward with an investigate on them, as well as all other results up until that point. Insta giant conftown block (and if we think it's 3 scum in that group fucking with cop+2 mason claims, we can lynch one to check and still walk away with a decently sized town block if it was legit, because the cop will be able to conftown multiple people)

[BROseidon]

Claim?

[BROseidon]

Compulsive and JOAT are both normal, although commuter is not listed as a normal role. It's also not listed as an explicitly not normal role, so I don't know what to actually make of that.

[BROseidon]

rofl, can you give reasons for your anything?

[BROseidon]

TMT wagon isn't going anywhere. I like the CoolDoG wagon more than the Rob one, though. Everything with how he's handled the DCL situation has been bad and scum motivated..

VOTE: CoolDoG

Pedit: What does railroading mean?

[BROseidon]

That's L-2 on CoolDoG, I think.

[BROseidon]

Yeah, already thought that slot was town, but Hoopla is super pro-town.

I hadn't thought of a mass-claim idea. I actually like it a lot, since we do already have the 2 PR claims.

Hoopla, why do you think that CoolDoG is town? It seems like a lot of what he's done is more scum-motivated than town motivated?

[BROseidon]

VOTE: TMTOLBTWNTOF

I am fine with this lynch. Still unsure about CoolDoG, and nothing suggests to me that they couldn't be scum together.

[BROseidon]

VOTE: TMTOLBTWNTOF

I am fine with this lynch. Still unsure about CoolDoG, and nothing suggests to me that they couldn't be scum together.

Genuine laugh, because you're already voting me.
This frivolity with hammering disturbs me. I'm not sure what your take on the vote count was- if you thought you weren't voting me and I was at L-2, or you thought I was at L-1 and you didn't notice my name and you simply intended to hammer.
If this was a intended hammer post, it's awfully scummy, and I really don't see how you could have missed the fact that I'm at L-1.

Go read my ISO. My previous vote had been on CoolDoG and you were at L-2.

I put you at L-1

[BROseidon]

Aka the mod messed up and in "fixing the previous votecount he actually applied my future vote.

@mod can you fix my vote in vote count 5? It should be CoolDoG, as per post 320

[BROseidon]

RC claim action pls.

[BROseidon]

RC, thanks for the claim. Going to obviously want you to claim an action each night.

VOTE: Yates I think at least one of Yates and gorckat is scum (everyone else on the letters wagon is either dead or among my strongest townreads).

[BROseidon]

I like the claim order. I would like you to claim right after jmo and before me.

[BROseidon]

So we are going with Hoopla's order with the DCL wagon at the top? Where is Hoopla going?

[BROseidon]

No idea where rofl is.

I'm a VT.

[BROseidon]

So for town PRs we have 2 masons, a JOAT, and maybe one other PR?

Yeah scum are in the VTs.

[BROseidon]

Also if anybody says "lynch the mason" now I am going to fucking yell at them.

We are not lynching the fucking mason.

[BROseidon]

@DCXLVI: Who do you think the scum on the letters wagon were, if any?

[BROseidon]

DCL should make cases on people on his wagon. Also, he should mention if we are about to lynch his mason buddy.

I'm still fine with the Yates lynch.

[BROseidon]

I personally doubt scum would be so bold as to push a claimed mason wagon that aggressively. Would rather lynch Yates at this point. Maybe look at CoolDoG in a few days if we are still flipping townies.

[BROseidon]

Yates there is no reason not to out your innocent result once you've claimed.

[BROseidon]

So you're worried about a Godfather?

[BROseidon]

Okay Yates is being unnecessarily obtuse.

Non-sane sanities are not normal. Did your result reveal a 3rd party?

[BROseidon]

Can we just get a flip so that all this fucking WIFOM can stop. I don't have the energy for this shit.

[BROseidon]

We are at 9 people with a probable 3 scum, so I suspect that we are one round before LyLo. I am thinking that the other mason should come forth and claim, but AFTER RC claims whether he got a guilty result last night (RC should claim either "I got a guilty" or "I am not claiming an action"). If the mason claims now, it forces scum to leave at least one confirmed townie in play going into LyLo, which is at least something. If the mason waits until next round to claim, scum can counterclaim, since everyone but Yates from off the DCL wagon is still alive, and I am fairly sure that it is not the case that all of the scum are among RC/ThAd/Gorckat/CoolDoG.

Here are the relevant wagons for VCA, btw. Assuming RC is town because if not then holy fuck we have an underpowered town:

DCLXVI

-

TMTOLBTWNTOF

, gorckat,

Rob13

, CooLDoG,

RadiantCowbells

, The Admiral

TMTOLBTWNTOF

- BROseidon, jmo16mla,

Yates

, Hoopla,

DCLXVI

, gorckat,

Rob13

Yates

- Broseidon, roflcopter, nhammen, CooLDoG, gorckat,

RadiantCowbells

3 wagons-Gorckat
2 wagons-myself,

RC

, CooLDoG
1 wagon- ThAd, jmo, Hoopla, rofl, nhammen

gorckat looks pretty bad from this, but I want to ISO him before I decide whether or not to park a vote there. Interesting to note that I am the only person off the DCL wagon who was on both the letters and Yates wagons. Not quite sure what to make of that, will sleep on it.

Mod

Can we get 1) Hoopla indicated as replacing DBK in the playerlist and 2) Updated alive/dead list on the front page? Thanks

[BROseidon]

So gorck, you think that 3/5 of Me/Hoopla/Rofl/jmo/nhammen are scum, 1/5 is mason, and thus only 1/5 is VT?

Is this purely reads based?

[BROseidon]

...wow guys.

RC shouldn't say jack shit about what he did unless he got a guilty last night.

Have my eye on ThAd and Hoopla now for suggesting otherwise. And CooLDoG...

[BROseidon]

Cooldog wagon as it stands: admiral, DBK, BRO, Rob, DCL

Totally missed this earlier when doing VCA. Important to note that nhammen then puts CooLDoG an L-1.

Reading nhammen's ISO is kind of painful. He never gives solid reads and is super reactionary to everything. He tries to look like he's adding content while never actually doing anything. I think Yates is probably right on this one. If it's not nhammen then CooLDoG is probably scum (that Rob and DCL flipped town is indicative of this).

VOTE: Nhammen

[BROseidon]

Am okay with RC's sheep onto me because I'm fairly confidant that he's town at this point. rofl's I am less comfortable with because he's been rubbing me the wrong way all game.

The relevance of nhammen putting CooLDoG to L-1 is to state that he was, in fact, on that wagon on someone who has become a townread for most people. DCL and Rob are both dead from that wagon (and confirmed town), I know my alignment, and I've townread the Hoopla/DBK slot pretty much all game up until this day phase, and now I'm just paranoid as fuck because we can't seem to hit shit.

Reason to suspect CooLDoG if you are town has to do with CooLDoG's wagon and Yates's wagon. If you are town, his position in both of those (receiving end of a wagon sheeped entirely by town as well as in the middle of a wagon on a towny) make him look really bad.

gorckat: Reason why nhammen is a better wagon than ThAd given an equal scumread on the two of them is because of the mason counter-claim. If we go to LyLo and scum don't NK the mason, then the only people who can counterclaim mason are myself, rofl, jmo, hoopla, and nhammen. Lynching nhammen has the potential to remove scum who could convolute the mason situation tomorrow, whereas lynching ThAd would not have the potential to do this. Also, why are you calling out ThAd when you've previously stated that you think scum were entirely off the DCL wagon? This seems odd.

I think there are probably better lynches today than nhammen who hasn't jumped out at me as scum, then again scum are probably in the "haven't jumped out at me as scum" pile, so I'm torn on this. Would still prefer to lynch gorckat, but I will have a look back at some of the other wagons that formed in this game to see if I can figure anything out.

Waiting for this.

CooLDoG I do not dislike your vote but you're reasoning is meh.

Hmmm other than all this not much has changed for me. I need to do an ISO of gorckat to see what I think there but that isn't time urgent because I don't want to lynch there today. I want to lynch off the DCL wagon.

And yes I'm aware of the risk here but frankly I'm super willing to take that risk at this point.

[BROseidon]

RC, why don't you like that? What is the scum motivation in me misrepping you and then saying I don't think you're scum?

[BROseidon]

I wouldn't worry about it. It is nearly impossible to set you up at this point.

This. Now do you have any reason other than my misrep to think that I'm scum?

[BROseidon]

rofl what do you think of ThAd sheeping RC?

[BROseidon]

And by sheeping I mean voting me right after he did.

[BROseidon]

I think nhammen is a better lynch than hoopla.

@ThAd: You>gorck>>>>CoolDoG in terms of likeliness, as sure as I can be scum was on that wagon. For letters wagon, am less sure that there was scum on it, but I think it's still more likely than not that there was scum, with gorck=Hoopla>jmo.

[BROseidon]

...jmo you have been reading the game, right?

[BROseidon]

no hammer?

[BROseidon]

...waiting...

[BROseidon]

Was thinking that ThAd was the lynch for today, but jmo started the day out like a complete moron. Need to recalibrate that read.

We have 8 left and 2 scum probably. I'm pretty sure scum is one of ThAd/gorck and one of Hoopla/jmo. Not sure I want to lynch from the potential mason pool again if we aren't having the mason claim (which I agree with. The mason should not claim today).

Question now is to see if gorck was bussing or if the ThAd lynch makes more sense. Will read into that later. Also, jmo's vote onto ThAd has 0 trajectory. Interesting.

[BROseidon]

So right now we have:

Conftown: RC, CooLDoG, mason {myself/jmo/hoopla/rofl}

Could be scum: ThAd, Gorckat, 3 of {myself/jmo/hoopla/rofl}

Scum will kill RC, CooLDoG, or a claimed mason tonight. I guess theoretically we could also have an unclaimed doctor, but that seems unlikely.

I'm now wavering on whether the mason should claim. While it does prevent a counterclaim, it also guarantees their death. Which isn't actually terrible because we already have 2 other conftown, so killing the mason would be the same as shooting RC or CooLDoG.

Okay, when put that way I think the mason should claim. Also...

VOTE: ThAdmiral I still think this is the best vote.

[BROseidon]

Early townread on DBK, mostly.

[BROseidon]

I'll run the ISO tomorrow or thursday.

Also should we vote on mason claim/notclaim? We should probably do that before we run a wagon up.

[BROseidon]

ThAd/gorck do you guys want to contribute to the "should the mason claim" vote?

[BROseidon]

He's saying that you are the last scum and that you have given up.

[BROseidon]

This is me not counterclaiming.

VOTE: Hoopla

I am now completely fine with this lynch.

[BROseidon]

jmo your logic is infallible.

>.>

[BROseidon]

@Mod I am listed twice. My vote should be only on Hoopla

[BROseidon]

Yeah but I knew I wasn't the other mason

RC can you just hammer this shit already?

pedit: gorck is honestly my 3rd choice at this point behind Hoopla and ThAd. If rofl is scum I will berate myself for being a moron.

[BROseidon]

I've been looking at this for a while and I don't really favour a Gorckat lynch right now.
Let's get Broseidon.

Radiant is town.

Discuss.

Absolutely maybe.

This sentence ticked me off a long long time ago, and when I was revisiting Broseidon it caught my attention again.
Sarcastic response to a comment meant to generate town discussion? Don't like it at all.

Yeah but I knew I wasn't the other mason

RC can you just hammer this shit already?

Doubly bad. Tries to stifle discussion, and the first sentence is a non-denial denial of being scum.
I wanted to switch votes yesterday to him except I thought it was a bus and this was to gain towncred on his teammate's lynch.

DBK already covered why I took it as a joke, hence a joke response.

Now on a more serious note, am I the only one bothered by:

Way to throw a pal under the bus then, bro

Every real town knew he wasn't actually claiming scum.
This is basically trying to look town while not scumhunting in the least.

DCLXVI improperly representing Rob's argument and sheeping onto letters as a result seems too reckless to make me think that it's scum motivated. Don't like JMO's shitty meta argument and AtE, though. Very defensive.

VOTE: JMO

Fine. Really nothing wrong with this or his vote, except stuff that will come later of the position he's taking.

@Rob: What about his post seemed serious, though? I read it as a joke, which is why I'm confused as to why you interpreted it as serious (and why you assign this reading of his response to JMO in your points against him).

I am not in any hurry to lynch a mason claim. That would be really fucking stupid. If we have reason to suspect that the claim is false later, we can lynch then. Fuck, a mason coming forward and saying "he is not a mason" would be worth it if this were a fake claim; I'd trade a mason for scum.

This is what made me think he was the mason. That bit at the end was so blatantly obvious that there was no reason for it; obviously a mason would come forward if it was fake?
More useless shit.

I think a mason number would be good, but not their identities. DBK pointed out the use of having named townies in LyLo, but that's only true if we know how many masons there are as to prevent mason fakeclaims when all the masons are taken out.

The way this reads to me is that he's trying to make it look like he's the partner subtly pushing DCL to claim a number of masons.

Okay, now I'm comfortable taking DCL's claim at face value. Obviously will reconsider if information pops up that contradicts what he's given, but what he's given makes sense.

Really hate what RC did there. Makes 0 fucking sense in terms of town motivation, but also little sense in terms of scum motivation since scum should not be willing to so blatantly trade one person for a mason. Same thing with me wanting to think Cooldog is town - the move is just too blatantly idiotic for me to believe that scum would pull something like that. Does anyone have scum meta on either Cooldog or RC? Do they tend to play very boldly in the day phase as scum?

Again, he's OBVIOUSLY TRYING TO LOOK LIKE A POTENTIAL MASON CLAIM.
Jmo was on the down low about it. Broseidon is trying to look like maximum obvious mason partner so he can come fakeclaim it later.


Don't need to extend this wall anymore.

VOTE: Broseidon


Another big one for me is.

Can we just get a flip so that all this fucking WIFOM can stop. I don't have the energy for this shit.

This looks to me like he's worried about a multiball or some shit. It doesn't look town at all.

I'll write a response to this when I'm not getting ready for work.

[BROseidon]

Sarcastic response to a comment meant to generate town discussion? Don't like it at all.

Sarcasm is not a scumtell.

Doubly bad. Tries to stifle discussion, and the first sentence is a non-denial denial of being scum.
I wanted to switch votes yesterday to him except I thought it was a bus and this was to gain towncred on his teammate's lynch.

Because there was a lot of discussion going on at that point.

Every real town knew he wasn't actually claiming scum.
This is basically trying to look town while not scumhunting in the least.

Because there was so much more substantial information to work off of at that point.

And yes I was trying to make myself seem more mason-like in an attempt to draw out a scumkill if the scum decided to go for a DCL kill night 1 and then dig for the other mason before he claimed.

his looks to me like he's worried about a multiball or some shit. It doesn't look town at all.

Um...

1) If I am scum and I was concerned about multiball, it would mean that my scumteam would HAVE to consist of just me/nhammen. 9/2/2 and 9/3/1 are not balanced setups. So either you think I'm an idiot or your logic is inconsistent.

2) The single kill on Rob night one would not have made any amount of sense. Sure, it would make sense for a mafia team to also shoot Rob in an attempt to invalidate your claim, but why would an SK do that as well? An SK would want to start thinning the crowd.

Also, does anything in how I pushed nhammen look like a bus to you, seeing as I was one of the driving forces behind that lynch.

[BROseidon]

Also I am fairly certain that the last two scum are gorck/ThAd. I will be willing to lynch either of them today.

If anyone suggests we lynch rofl I will yell at you. A lot.

[BROseidon]

He's less town than rofl and I don't think you are pulling any sort of gambit.

Seriously, he was on the early DCL wagon pushing for a quicklynch and he hasn't had any sort of original thought all game. After the mason claim he backs off immediately and tunnels CD through day 2, at which point he jumps onto gorck with the following sequence:

The last one is harder to read, but it seems pretty clear to me that there is scum among gorckat and cooldog, and at least one in bro/jmo/yates/hoop.

1) Notice how that last group is 3 conftown and me (and I know that I am town). That means that, as a bus, this is a really smart bus because it pushes town to start searching for scum in a group of four that very likely included the mason and a group that, given a single scum in that group, would actually be LESS scum-dense than the overall game, so as scum he could potentially push for 3-4 mislynches in that group by only giving up gorck. Gorck wasn't even really an option on the table, so he probably wasn't even going to have to shed gorck for another few days.

2) ThAd then drops his CooLDoG read "on reread" once it became apparently that CD wasn't getting lynched.

ThAd then can't decide whether to deathtunnel me or gorck, so he just sort of wavers back and forth in who he wants to deathtunnel. Oh, and he didn't think nhammen was scum when the guy at that point was pretty damn scum.

And at the end of it all he hasn't pushed a lynch to the point that it actually has happened, despite the fact that he's been "sure" that gorck is scum for the past few days.

[BROseidon]

Gut, mostly.

[BROseidon]

Also RC do you not know what an unvote is?

[BROseidon]

I'm fine with a gorckat lynch.

VOTE: gorck

I don't honestly see my reads changing at this point.

[BROseidon]

Right, you're hoping that I get lynched first so you win and don't have to bus. Got it.

[BROseidon]

rofl and cooldog need to come in here to decide whether they want to hammer me or try go get you to lynch gorck today.

I've said my piece. ThAd doesn't want to jump ship b/c he sees a chance to win this without bussing.

[BROseidon]

You'd like to think that because you don't want to be wrong.

rofl, if you don't want to lynch me, why aren't you voting gorck?

[BROseidon]

I've said my piece about why I think ThAd is scum. I think rofl is town because his play has been erratic in a way that doesn't ping me as scummy. Gorck has generally taken a back seat while being on every single wagon in the game. He's literally just been contributing nothing while sheeping consensus opinion constantly. Notice how he's always late to the party on every wagon.

Oh, and rofl didn't hammer me, and CooLDoG has been at least online since I've been put at L-1, so I'm certain that they aren't scum. I'm not suspicious of you because nobody has changed their claim from massclaim and I don't think we only have 2 masons for PRs.

[BROseidon]

Also, wait.

For CooLDoG to be scum and your claim to be true, he would have to be a godfather.

Godfather+Goon+Goon vs. 2 masons/compuslive JOAT seems imba in favor of scum.

[BROseidon]

That could be true.

But town's only PRs are 2 masons in a 13p game with 3 scum? If anything, if you're scum, it would make sense for CooLDoG to still be town and for it to be 2 scum.

[BROseidon]

RC you aren't making sense. masons+joat vs 2 scum? Does that seem balanced to you?

[BROseidon]

Or you can be wrong about rofl. That's also a possibility.

[BROseidon]

Reading now.

[BROseidon]

I don't think they are scum together. The joint ISO doesn't look too bad for RC and there's still the issue of balance.

[BROseidon]

If anything, it looks a lot worse that gorck/ThAd are both cross scum-reading each other but not actually voting each other, especially given that everyone in the game has a stated scumread on gorck.

Other than RC, although he's been all over the place recently.

[BROseidon]

welp. RC is going to agree with you.

Loss is on you and RC, mate. You really think that it's me/rofl over ThAd/gorck? You think the entire DCL wagon was town-driven?

[BROseidon]

And you think that the only scum lynch we've had was a hard bus, despite the fact that town was looking in the wrong direction all game.

[BROseidon]

...You just noticed that now.

UNVOTE: gorckat

What's concerning to me is that you unvoted me despite having the game basically won if you're scum. As a gambit it doesn't make sense from any sort of scum motivation to unvote the L-1 townie when you have someone that has made it pretty clear that they would like to see me lynched.

rofl, get back here. I think we need to talk about things.

[BROseidon]

A Rofl scumflip makes Broseidon 100% confirmed scum whereas it doesn't work in the opposite direction.

Yes, this is true.

However, a rofl townflip also ends the game unless we have an unclaimed bp or protective role, so lynching rofl first to potentially clear me does nothing because if rofl flips town, we lose anyways.

I know that rofl can't be scum because he didn't hammer me, which is why I want to have a conversation with him.

[BROseidon]

If we mislynch we lose unless there is only one scum lef or we have an unclaimed bp or protective role.

[BROseidon]

Do you really think gorc-scum pulled off Bro-town without letting Cooldog get in and vote or not?

I think you mean RC. You pulled off when the wagon was you+ThAd+CD.

Where the fuck is rofl I need to have a chat with him.

Oh yeah and notice how ThAd is lurking the fuck out of this right now.

[BROseidon]

It's making me a lot less comfortable about both RC and CD.

Assuming we have 2 scum left, I know that it can't be rofl because he didn't hammer me. You are now making a lot less sense as remaining scum because you had a lynch on me pretty much guaranteed, but you pulled off. If you're scum, that isn't even a good WIFOM move, it's just bad play, which makes me think you're not scum. No way you're so terrible as to give up a game that is yours.

That means that it would have to be 2/3 of ThAd/RC/CD, and something about RC's investigate is be off. This would mean either that CD is in fact a godfather, or that RC is lying about his role (or I guess both could technically be true).

I need to think about this, and I'd like rofl to weigh in because he's the only person I can fully trust at this point.

[BROseidon]

The remaining players rank as RC>you>me>rofl>CD>ThAd as far as post count goes.

Considering that I am a fairly low post-count player, that looks really bad for CD/ThAd.

[BROseidon]

I'm not doing anything until I have a talk with rofl.

[BROseidon]

ThAd, why are you so certain that RC is telling the truth and CD is not the godfather?

[BROseidon]

PoE

Rofl didn't hammer, and therefore he's town. My wagon was at L-1 with you not on it despite having started the push against me for the day. gorck then chooses to unvote when I am literally about to get lynched. Therefore, it's unlikely that he's scum.

That leaves you/CD/ThAd as a probable 2 remaining scum.

[BROseidon]

Fixed. - Kit

[BROseidon]

rofl needs to get his ass in here so I can talk to him >:C

[BROseidon]

At work, so I'll also be sporadic.

I'm glad to see you are thinking along the same lines I am, although I'm also sort of tempted to push for a no-lynch today to see if the night kill clarifies anything.

[BROseidon]

rofl what do you think of a no-lynch?

[BROseidon]

You're still confident that CD isn't scum? Why?

That's the part that I'm tripping up on. I'm a lot less confident now that he's town than I was before.

[BROseidon]

What reason do you have for not thinking that the guy who has constantly lurked and contributed jack shit while having been on the DCL wagon is town?

[BROseidon]

VOTE: ThAd

You might want to get your gut checked.

[BROseidon]

We thought the same way about nearly everything, and I know my thoughts are coming from a town PoV.

That makes it extremely likely that he's town too.

That is an incredibly dangerous line of reasoning to use.

[BROseidon]

That line of reasoning almost fucked me over in my first game on MS.

[BROseidon]

Here

I was town and Ms Marangal was the scum in question.

[BROseidon]

gorck never voted ThAd...

[BROseidon]

ThAd who do you think my scumpartner is?

[BROseidon]

Given that, you know, you are so intent on calling me scum.

[BROseidon]

Ugh where did gorck go.

[BROseidon]

That's L-1.

Let's see if gorck hammers this...

[BROseidon]

Holy fuck, gorck isn't scum.

Something about RC's claim is off. gorck, how confidant are you on the point that CD saw the thread and didn't hammer me earlier? If you're confidant on that, it's ThAd/RC, since the you/rofl/CD would have all passed up the chance to hammer me.

[BROseidon]

So if a mislynch on me doesn't end it, then RC is basically confscum.

That makes me better.

[BROseidon]

Granted, I would prefer a lynch on ThAd or RC over me, because of the chance that they are scum together, but this 2-scum idea is starting to make a lot more sense.

VOTE: RC

If CD is the godfather gg.

[BROseidon]

hmmmmmm.

gorck/rofl, what do you guys think of a no-lynch vs. RC lynch vs. ThAd lynch? Those are the options I see and I'm not entirely sure which is best.

[BROseidon]

gg excellent play, although it took you all way to long to figure out that rofl was roleblocker or jailer >.>

Thanks for the carry there at the end rofl/gorck, way to see what I couldn't.

ThAd I disagree, I think that town deserved the win. A lot of people played pretty well from the town side, and rofl's play was pretty standout. Can't say I liked the style at the start, but it's rubbed off on me now >.>

[BROseidon]

Nhammen wasn't really obvious to me until day 3 either, when I really started digging in and tried to figure out what was going on. I don't think it was the CD read that I latched on to, but more the "I'm going to lurk and say things that are at the surface very towny things to say but don't really contribute anything" posts. It's the same thing that made me think ThAd was also scum.