Mini 1484 - Pick Your Partners (Game Over)

[Voidedmafia]

I'm here, just reading.

[Voidedmafia]

Eager to hear Voidedmafia's thoughts, as his slot is the only one that hasn't expressed an opinion re: TSO/Mutley.

I'm mainly up to page 20 right about now in a brief skim to try and get me up-to-date with more pertinent events, and to be frank I would not be sad to off Mutley at this point in reading despite the skim. I agree with the many complaints by the other players at his lack of content or attempts to actually reasonably talk with people, and pending a readthrough of TSO (the other person in the spotlight today) will probably be where my vote goes.

My MS attention is currently occupied with at the moment, so a more detailed read through the thread and TSO's ISO (lol) will most likely have to wait until later in the week, but don't hesitate to ask me any questions I need to answer or point me to things I should look at more.

(PS DrD's slip was hilarious. And I'm honestly thankful pjovek was a wolf (or just scum in general) because that self-hammer would've been simply atrocious had he been town.)

Could we get an unvote on mutley to avoid any self-hammer/quickhammer shenanigans, though? Well, less the quickhammer stuff (I've seen enough of most of you from completed games to know that you all wouldn't really do that) but I'm not so sure that mutley wouldn't self-hammer if he saw the need.

[Voidedmafia]

So I'll go along with your line of reasoning, Egg.

VOTE: Egg.

This was summarily also hilarious.

And I do find myself agreeing with what Egg said above this, based on what I recall.

[Voidedmafia]

Expand on this, please. I have Egg down as "probably dead tomorrow" due to towniness and the werewolf's previous nightkill tactics.

I agree with this, btw.

[Voidedmafia]

btw people are voting me cos they think I am the WW

Yeah, well, did I say I was voting you because you're the WW (yet, anyways)?

No?

Mmhmm.

[Voidedmafia]

Do these interactions look scum-scum to you?

Could be.

Regardless, I can't believe you guys are actually following the Mutley wagon. This guy has hard lurked the whole game while Varsoon was alive, who Mutley even admits can read him. It makes total sense.

While this is a somewhat salient point if true, why wouldn't mutley-WW get Varsoon killed N1 instead of N2?

If you are wolf, I'm sure you had a good reason for killing Bo N1. Maybe it outweighed your reasons for killing varsoon immediately, especially if he was going to write off your lurking as "normal". Why waste the bullet N1 when you can get away with another day of lurking?

This both assuages and deepens my feelings on Muttley-WW to the point that it remains the same. Assuages because the lack of a Varsoon kill N1 would tend to point me toward Muttley-mafia/Town and not muttley-WW. But at the same time, it introduces the worry that Muttley-WW felt he managed to skate by D1, but was either worried of Varsoon catching onto him or that his luck was running out and he needed to get rid of Varsoon before the former happened.

But then, it's also possibly that Muttley is mafia, and WAS wanting a Varsoon kill N1 but didn't have any direct control over who was killed and makes the N2 kill of Varsoon a lucky break. I still get the feeling that his kill was partially reactionary to him getting DrD to self-vote due to his slip, though.

DING DING DING DING DING

Mutley appears to have transformed into a glorious town butterfly and everybody should feel bad about being on his wagon.

...What?

Well, Haschel has made a great post on how we can't be scum together. You're still scum, Haschel.

Unless you mean you're mafia and he's wolf or something, why say this?

I'd never kill Bo. I love Bo.

Then theres the added bonus he can't read me so I'd keep him around for ever to talk with.

So you were rooting for Varsoon to be killed as mafia?

(this is a little more stream of consciousness kind of post since I feel like it'd take too long to do more thorough stuff atm. Still plan to read through TSO.)

[Voidedmafia]

muttley's stream of posting after Egg's meta argument feels like scum desperation to me.

Egg already dissected Mutley for breakfast *gunshot* so I'm not going to go through that but I find it revealing that Tochica just dismissed it as tunnel vision instead of addressing it whatsoever.

...She addressed the most recent addition to the case. I fail to see what you're getting at here.

Even if egg's addition isn't entirely correct it still feels very town motivated.

The fact I didnt bus is probably an indicator that I am not werewolf

Instead of bussing you make a goddamn No-lynch wagon. Reeks of distancing rather than a lack of bussing.

You're the savior we deserve, Voidedmafia.

You're too kind.

The thing that stood out from Mutley was the post where he said he wasn't the werewolf because he likely would have bussed. I pulled up his ISO and tried to do a find "bus" to find the post. This alerted me that every other post said "bus". It seems far too likely an occurance for that to be town.

I'm not seeing what the point of this was.

I don't believe at all TSO thought Mutley may have self hammered now, this unvote looks obliging.

...your point?

I've at least read through the thread for general reads. Egg is my strongest townread, followed by Nati. Toch is a weaker townread, and HC and Titus are generally null. TSO is slightly a tossup (certainly not town at the moment), but I do feel confident that Muttley is scum, probly WW.

Vote: Muttley

[Voidedmafia]

Why Titus for wolf, Egg, if that's not what Muttley flips?

P-Edit: No, Tochica shouldn't be our next priority. Why do you sound like you're gonna die tonight?

[Voidedmafia]

So, scum is within (HC/titus/Nat/Gar/Tochica).

TSO is excluded due to un-cc'd mason plus egg's last read on him.

I tend to agree with egg's reads at this juncture, at least with nat. Toch did give me townvibes in my read, as did Gar, so I agree with his scumpicks (besides the fact that he has me as mafia, but eh).

I will admit to having no ideas as to who is the WW, though. A look at the other dead townies' read may shed some light on that. For now,

vote titus

[Voidedmafia]

To clarify, i agree with his picks in general, not necessarily with where he has them.

[Voidedmafia]

Great. A vote on me for no reason Voided. I will be reviewing your ISO because I hate reasonless votes, even more so when they are on me.

DId you even read the post where I voted you? I detailed why it's either you or HC.

[Voidedmafia]

To be a bit more clear, either of you are fine to me as by PoE you both are scum. If I can find hints that point to Haschel being WW more than you then I'll switch my vote to him, but if I cannot or the hints point to you instead, my vote stays.

Not that hard.

[Voidedmafia]

These are the only things left I can think of that can find the Wolf.

btw, unless you think pjo-WW is bussing Gar-WW, that first quote is kinda out of place since GNR wasn't even a wagon at the time of that vote. (This assumes that you're implying that GNR/I'm the last WW here, anyways).

As for the second quote, I'm not seeing the big contradiction there. Pjo's vote on GNR raises some eyebrows to me when I read back again (and it made me a tad suspicious during the readthrough), but that's in regards to suspecting Pjo, not GNR. If I didn't have the knowledge of what GNR's alignment is due to replacing him I could see why you might think it points to GNR possibly being his partner, but it still feels like a rather weak link.

For the third quote, the two reads that stick out to me the most is the 90% sure scumread on GNR/me and the opposite in regards to TSO. The GNR read looks less like bussing and more like trying to leave a trail to go to, as does the TSO townread. Of course, the fact that I replaced GNR meant that my scenario is true to me points more toward TSO being a possible distanced partner (or something to that effect), but the surety of either read--especially with the knowledge that Pjo wasn't actually masons with TSO--is very disconcerting. I won't deny that if TSO hadn't claimed mason (or been hinted at by Egg) I would've pushed him today.

His two other townreads don't quite set off alarms, though I could see the possibility of him putting his partner in the nullreads (or as his other townreads). The partner being in the nulls appears to be more likely, since there's a greater pool that we'd have to fish in than just looking between the now dead VT-Bo and the still alive unknown Toch.

[Voidedmafia]

Voided what do you think of day 2 drdo posting regard

ing

hc (mainly 405, but all these before that too),

In regards to 405 in particular, I don't really see much in it, partially because I agree with the sentiment in 399 and DrD's 400.

356, though, does raise some suspicions. It sounds too quick to agree with the 4 mislynches thing to be genuine.

more or less likely partners?

Unless I'm missing something, only 405 and 356 mention DrD or interact with him, and I don't see much that points to partners. I'm looking through Haschel for other hints.

Riggs and DrDolittle are both bothering me because they are both setting themselves up to use a major scumtell, but neither one has actually done it yet.

This reads like soft pushing on both of them without actually putting himself out there for it. Unfortunately...that's really it. I'm not seeing much in regards to interacting with each other or talking about each other. Not a bad setup for distancing from each other (especially considering the mafiaflip from DrD), so there are some points toward HC-mafia, at least enough that I'd call him mafia over Titus.

Also, did you get any insight looking at the night kills or you haven't done that yet?

Bo doesn't have a lot to go on since any direct reads (minus his read on me) are already dead, so there's not a lot to glean there. the other read that I mainly see from those alive is on Nat, but it ends up as a not-scum read by 264.

Varsoon likewise didn't give me a whole lot, either, especially since Muttley flipped VT. one of his clear reads D2 is that Titus looks to be a townread (based on the "We ride, Titus. We ride" line as he joined the DrD wagon).

Egg was more of a kill based on getting rid of a unified townread that getting rid of someone who was on WW's tail, IMO, so I don't believe that kill would even give anything. So sadly, I wasn't able to get as much as I'd like.

...And I just noticed that there's actually 3 mafia, not 2. <_<. Even so, I don't really want to worry about that 3rd mafia at this point when I both A.) Feel like getting WW is more of a priority, and B.) I don't even know who that 3rd mafia would be.

And to answer TSO's question, Haschel would be one mafia pick.

[Voidedmafia]

My feeling at the moment is basically that we don't know who the WW is. We have a general pool of scummy players but we can't distinguish who the WW is.

Natirasha/Titus, Egg and Varsoon seemed to trust you, so I guess I will too.

Who are the Mafia?

Who're you talking to? Me?

[Voidedmafia]

If your name is Titus, maybe.

What is your reasoning on hasch-maf?

You didn't mention or quote Titus. How was I supposed to know?

And read my above posts. I'm not going to re-explain something I just stated.

[Voidedmafia]

Oh. You see, I was hoping #298 wasn't the crux of your case, because it equally applies to you.

GNR, you mean? If you actually mean myself, putting down Haschel as scum (mafia in particular) due to PoE isn't exactly soft pushing, and because the evidence points to him as being mafia rather than WW I don't want to go after him today. Tomorrow, certainly, if we get a WW lynch, but not before.

I'm not going to argue with you over what he has or hasn't done because I'm not GNR, but you're free to either point out why you believe that or direct me to where you've mentioned this before.

[Voidedmafia]

Titus, do you agree or disagree that going for WW is better than Mafia? I know you have HC as a scumread, but it seems to be a mafiaread, not ww. And since we're in a 4:2:1 ratio, it seems clear to me that removing the killing faction first is a bit more important that the non-killing so we don't have the threat of a 2:2:1 situation that we town can only win if we lynch mafia and then the WW kills the last one for a 2:1 lylo, lest it ends either with a mafia win (if WW is lynched) or a WW win (if mafia is lynched).

[Voidedmafia]

Your scenario accounts for having three mafia left

no, or else it'd be 4:3:1, not 4:2:1, you dolt.

Though, really, it's technically 3:2:1; no WW worth their salt is leaving TSO alive tonight if they avoid the noose, plain and simple. While putting the numbers down to 3:1:1 does sound nice (lynching mafia today and WW killing TSO), but I would certainly rather not risk a 2:1:1 for a dangerous 2:1 against the WW, and THAT'S only if they kill the last mafia. If not, it's a prisoner's deilemma for the last townie.

None of our three possible lynches give us good alternatives. But making sure that we have the sole control of who lives and who dies? Totally outweighs getting rid of mafia.

But it is suspicious, as Nat says, that you're beginning to put more focus on Mafia than WW. The only side that needs the mafia dead right now is WW because A.) They have one more person than them, and B.) They need to avoid said prisoner's dilemma, or just X:1:1 in general. Not matter how obvious a mafia Haschel may be, you sure sound more concerned about getting him dead than what seems appropriate.

[Voidedmafia]

ISO yourself.

That's very helpful for those of us who don't see things the way you do.

Tochica should be saying that it's pretty bad here as your move essentially says make my case for me and be all defensive. Yet, Tochica didn't realize this which makes TSO's argument stronger ironically.

Fair point here, though.

DrDo was actually defending both gnr and hc. My dilemma here is whether he was trying to protect hc in the beginning of day two or was he trying to buddy him.

Given that DrD had GNR/myself as a good townread for pretty much every time he mentions GNR, I'd say that it was more akin to buddying that protection.

With HC it's not as direct and more on the side; he doesn't outright state a townread on Haschel (IIRC) but does agree with some of the things he says and seems to have an implied townread on HC. More suspicious to me than an explcit Townread, IMO. (of course, I'm partially talking about my own slot, so grains of salt and whatnot, but still.)

[Voidedmafia]

Isn't it possible Varsoon was a skill kill as well? Or that WW-Titus didn't think that the townread on her was solid enough to risk?

[Voidedmafia]

Voided, your trying to stretch the facts to fit a theory instead of having your theory fit the facts

If I had a theory in mind when I asked. Each were possibilities, and it's fair to ensure that Nat has at least thought of them.

but I don't see why the wolf would value Varsoon's skill over Egg(or me to a lesser degree).

I see your point on yourself, but I don't think Egg being a mason was that obvious D2 (I could be wrong on this), nor as clearly town (or a universal townread) as he was D3, so I imagine it wasn't as clear-cut a kill. Or possibly our last WW didn't think he was as town as he actually was, and when that was presented to him D3 the WW knew that Egg had to go down.

[Voidedmafia]

See, I would wholeheartedly agree with you on the first point if Titus was, well, not Titus. She's a very analytical player and doesn't tend to go for the WIFOM play, I know Titus would not kill Varsoon in that circumstance--she is not the type to do that. In addition, site meta dictates that WIFOM NKs are ridiculously out of fashion.

Fair enough.

Unvote

Voided and HC are defending each other very strongly

Are, or were?

If you mean me in particular, I'm not defending HC, only saying that he's a lynch for after the WW's dead. I don't see how that means I'm defending him.

That's enough to get me to say Garantula isn't likely Pjovek's partner.

I believe the proper usage of the tell is "FOS buddy, vote townie". It should be affirming that Garan is likely WW, not disproving it.

I don't think that alone is enough to say that Gar is more likely, though.

[Voidedmafia]

Clear shift. No given reason. Defends Pjovek to voting him. It looks like a bus to me.

He does explain the shift in 247, tho?

[Voidedmafia]

The difference in tone between 213 and 242/247 are very striking. There is the PEDIT in 213 that calls 212 "Dumb as shit" but that sounds more like berating a player for a bad post, not calling him scummy for it. That looks sound enough to me.

Vote: Natirasha

[Voidedmafia]

I'm checking your case. If I think it's nonsense, I'm chalking you down as Mafia.

I'm agreeing with you on your quotes of Nat, basically.

I'm pretty sure Mafia don't want the WW lynch.

This feels scum-guided.

This is rather contradictory. If Mafia don't want a WW lynch, then how is this being scum-guided?

[Voidedmafia]

Perhaps the scum are not confident in their judgment of who the wolf is, but you know who it likely isn't? Me.

So you're saying that the Mafia may not know who the wolf is, but can reasonably be sure that you aren't, and would then try to push you as being the last WW?

[Voidedmafia]

Prod received; am visiting parents for the weekend but I'll try to post tomorrow. If we could lynch Titus before I get back that would be great.

You don't agree with Nat's logic in regards to why Titus wouldn't kill Varsoon?

[Voidedmafia]

Voided & Titus what do you think ww-nat's motivation is to insist titus would never kill varsoon in this situation?

What makes you think there is possible WW motivation in doing that?

[Voidedmafia]

Voided, it's not a stance I find likelier to come from the ww at this point of time, so I was wondering how you interpreted it.

Perhaps not, but how does it go against what else has been presented for Nat-WW?

[Voidedmafia]

I saw Titus with a Chinese menu in her hand walkin' through the streets of Soho in the rain. She was lookin' for the place called Lee Ho Fooks; gonna get a big dish of beef chow mein.

...Um...what?

[Voidedmafia]

Very informative, Haschel. Now where is everyone else?

Oh, wait, maybe it was in response to this.

Even so, is that it?

[Voidedmafia]

Voided, apparently there is a song called Werewolves of London - took me a google search.

I'm aware of the song (it's on-disc on Rock Band 3), just not the lyrics.

I didn't butcher anything, and your reactions are much more comical than any joke I could have ever told.

So...what was your point?

Garantula giving no reason for replacing is also triggering my spider-senses of scum.

I don't see this as a reason for him being scum. Some people just tell the mod via PM that they're replacing.

[Voidedmafia]

Voided, I'm gonna go with your decision here.

Is Titus a better wagon than Garantula?

...I'm not liking the fact that you're abdicating your vote here to me. What does YOUR gut/head tell you is better?

[Voidedmafia]

I'm asking you a question. I don't need to prove my alignment. You do. Answer, or I'll just chalk you down as Tochica's buddy.

I wasn't asking you out of a determination of your alignment, I'm asking you because I see no reason for you to turn and tell me that y're effectively proxying your vote to whomever of the two options given to me, even if that's just a bluff on your part as a reaction test for whatever reason. Sure, MAYBE you get a good handle on who to vote, and maybe you get a better grip on my alignment, but as you just said, you don't know my alignment with certainity. I could give a straight answer, or bus my partner if I'm mafia, or try to string you along, so there's no real benefit to asking me such a question given how unknown I am to you.

So, why are you asking me?

[Voidedmafia]

If you want to chalk me down as her partner, fine. I don't personally care. But I'm not looking this gift horse in the mouth withoit good reason.

Or however that phrase is supposed to go.

[Voidedmafia]

Vote: Mrbartlet

-_-

Heh.

Now, are you gonna respond to me?

[Voidedmafia]

No, I don't think so.

I wasn't proxying my vote to you, by the way.

So, why'd you ask me?

[Voidedmafia]

I was trying to discern your alignment. You didn't pass, by the way.

You suddenly ask me to pick between two players who I'd want to lynch, and you phrase it like you're going to piggyback off of whoever I choose/vote, and I'm not supposed to be more than a little wary about it all? How did this help you figure out my alignment? Since you seem to think that I'm scum (probably Mafia in particular, though I can only assume that), how was my answer scum motivated? How does this help you figure out who the WW is (if I'm Mafia) or who HC's probable partner is (if I'm WW)?

[Voidedmafia]

I think it is super unlikely hc's town especially after his newest posts. I also don't understand why everyone (save voided) is set on him being mafia rather than ww.

Why're you excluding me? What makes my insistence that he's Mafia different from the rest?

however I think tso's 'test' was obviously a 'test' of some form. So, I also don't see how this discussion may turn into something helpful.

TSO doesn't seem to be intent on explaining the purpose of this test, so what makes you believe that it will give something fruitful, if that's what you're saying here?

[Voidedmafia]

and mainly that I think it's super unlikely neither you nor hc are mafia so I would understand if you see him as mafia.

hm?

Also, I actually meant I didn't see how it's gonna give something fruitful.

Ah, understood.

I would still like it if TSO explained exactly what he wished to accomplish with that post and why he thought it would get those results. Just because you're conftown doesn't absolve you of explaining your actions.

HC, how does this quote points at titus being ww? It feels like you are being deliberately cryptic.

I do agree with this. HC, what in that post of Titus's makes you think he's WW?

[Voidedmafia]

Actually, it does

No, it doesn't. You're still a player in this game, your actions still impact how the game plays out. By denying that you don't have to explain anything because "I'm conftown," you attempt to remove yourself from the game in some form and thus attempt to absolve yourself of anything that happens. No player can or should be allowed to do that, and no CONFIRMED TOWNIE should be allowed to do this. While your opinion is the only opinion we can trust to come from a town mindset, that does not mean we have to believe that your way is the way, or that we should only look skin deep at your actions or what you do. I refuse to allow you to claim "I'm conftown" as an excuse to not explain things or expound on thoughts that you have shared, and thus demand that you explain what your point in that post and question posed to me was, if not now then before the lynch/deadline (whichever comes first).

Goddamn there are so many people fucking undermining me here.

How am I undermining you? You've done something that even from a conftown is suspect in regards to how it will advance your reads or discern who might be the last WW/2nd mafia. I believe I've rightfully called you out on it's effectiveness, and there are others who agree. You are still accountable for your actions, and I expect to see that you have properly explained your "test" before the day is over.


Also, why do you want Gar/Bartlet lynched? At the very least we need to hear him out and let him try to produce at least one post of meaningful content.

P-EDIT: I've misspelled town and partner names as scum before. I don't see how that translates to Gar being WW with pjovek?

[Voidedmafia]

Voided, I have neither the time nor the inclination to do that. If you want, you can vote me.

Nah, its just the inclination that's the problem. Conftown can simply be ignored, yknow, if they aren't helping or showing a genuine interest in aiding the town wincon, and I know how hard it can be to stay in the game as a conftown player. You most certainly have at least half an hour to prepare your reasons for why you did what you did at some point, no? So there's no reason for you to deny us the chance to see just what you were thinking.

And now you're asking me to vote you? Are you trying to bait me into slipping or something?

[Voidedmafia]

Natirasha and Haschel are so blindingly the mafia just from that one post

One-post declarations of scumminess that aren't clear-cut scumslips/scumclaims don't really count as cases. Quotes or it ain't true.

Post 830 my friend. Calling your buddy useless and going overboard it is literally a thought out post on how to bus and distance as much as possible as he looks like the lynch.

Apt observations on the uselessness of a player do not a bus post make.

What makes Nat's annoyance scum annoyed with his partner? Especially since HC should know that he's still got time to turn minds away.

[Voidedmafia]

He starts off saying there's three scum undermining us

Which is true.

He's trying to get into our minds that scum isn't him and he's referring to three others.

I fail to see this in that particular sentence. Looks more like you're reading too much into it.

Buddying up to the conf town cos his opinion is the one he trusts most. Yeah right TSO hasn't done great for it to be amazingly trust worthy.

How is any different from when I've said that TSO's opinion is the one I would trust the most?

Then there's his 845 calling Haschel a gimme.

Do you believe HC is not a gimme kill tomorrow if we lynch WW today? And again, what makes Nat saying this any different from the rest of us who have already agreed that HC dies tomorrow?

There's always a chance the wolf thinks TSO has the game wrong and keeps him alive (or wants to give that appearance and keeps him alive).

I would think that the better play would be to get rid of someone who town absolutely won't lynch than bank on TSO being wrong. TSO's being kinda stupid right now, but he's not a VI. Unless the WW is someone who is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE that he/she's not under TSO's radar and won't be for the next 1-2 days, I'm nearly 100% positive TSO's gonna be the kill.

[Voidedmafia]

Btw, to answer your question, tso, gar/bartlet seem like a better wagon right now. Bartlet's fiery entrance may look town, but how fast he somehow manahed to nail both mafia (and with really questionable evidence) raises some eyebrows. His reasoning for toch being WW also looks equally superficial. That, and I also think Toch's town, so.

[Voidedmafia]

I feel wary of putting bart at l-1 at this point, though. There is no worry of a mafia quickhammer, is there?

[Voidedmafia]

It's not the only evidence I have per say. I'm just saying that post was ridicolously obvious and confirmed my suspicions on my catch up. Sometimes the replacements can see things that you lot can't because I have had no interaction to be blinded by.

It's not really that obvious. At least 2-3 other people (myself included) are getting annoyed with HC's continued insistence on not actually helping as of late. I don't see how Nat gets the bus label because he was the one to openly say as much.

Also, why aren't you sharing your evidence?

This, too.

I haven't been bothered to make too much of a complex case because I can see the remaining townies are following a blind man it seems.

"I don't have to listen to whatever you people who have been in the game since the beginning/longer than me have to say cuz I'm a replacement!"

yeahno.

Conf town =/= right however that's seems to be the case of peoe eventually following the conf town.

A.) I already said that.
B.) Who is following TSO because he's conftown and not because their own suspicions lead them to the same target?

One obvious thing, although in this case I had that feeling and then read that post which confirmed it for me.

That's nice, but you can start giving the rest soon.

[Voidedmafia]

Vote: Bartlet

L-1

Meh, what was I getting anxious for?

Btw, bartlet, you missed a question.

[Voidedmafia]

...the fuck?

Welp, not playing with Bartlet again, probably. complete stupidity.

[Voidedmafia]

Yeah, I'm not playing with bartlet anytime soon.

I still don't really see what the big hubbub about a nat/HC pairing is, still. His reasons were weak, and I'm currently fairly confident that nat is town. I am equally certain that HC is mafia based on what was ciscussed yesterday as well as his unhelpfulness near the end of the day, and with a 2:2:1 spread we need a mafia lynch to even have a chance at victory.

vote Haschel

(Of course we're now at the mercy of the wolf's shot not hitting the last mafia tonight if HC does flip mafia, but I think that the last WW wants a prisoner's dilemma any more than town or mafia do.)

[Voidedmafia]

I myself am having trouble seeing voided as the ww but discussing this now will help him to decide who to kill I suppose (assuming mafia lynch).

How does this sentence even jive together?

[Voidedmafia]

I am still not sure why you are certain hc is mafia not the ww.

Who was this to, btw?

Oh, I didn't mean him-you I meant him the ww, I usually try avoiding pronouns.

The WW, I think, would be better off trying his luck in a 3-man LyLo rather than a 3-man Prisoner's Dilemma (2:1 instead of 1:1:1 if you don't get the ratios), as the former still allows him to decide his destiny while the latter basically falls on who the final town decides to have win (and there's not even the chance of a mafia/WW crosskill because only the WW can kill). WW HAS to hit mafia tonight if HC flips mafia--no, WW has to hit mafia regardless of HC's flip because if HC flips town and he/she kills the last town, It's 2-1 for the Mafia and they'd win come D6.

You seem to be thinking that helping discuss who the WW should kill is a bad thing, while I've outlined how he/she HAS to find the Mafia? Why?

Titus: That's all you had to say at the start?

Nat: You mean you have trouble believing Titus is the last Wolf?

[Voidedmafia]

I am not sure if that's a bad thing to discuss I more think it's pointless as everyone will just 'agree' that's what ww should do.

If anything, we should be putting forward who we think is the last mafia so that he/she has a better idea of who to shoot.

My point however was that if ww had a dilemma who to kill and if whoever he thinks is town suspects him, or town reads the other person ww think is town, he may decide to shoot them for it and go for this 1:1:1 situation.

He might, but as I said the 1:1:1 wouldn't be desirable for EITHER team. I certainly wouldn't want to give the chance of my faction winning over to whoever the final town decides deserves the win more (which is usually what that boils down to, I think) if I was mafia or WW.

In a 2:1, though, the WW has control over his/her destiny and can decide (or help in deciding) who dies last. Barring factors such as how heavy the suspicion on him/her may be, this is more likely.

I'm tempted just to be a total jerk and not share notes with anyone to ensure the WW fucks up.

Why for the good of this game would you even contemplate doing that unless you're Mafia who thinks they have a good shot at being the winner of the 1:1:1?

[Voidedmafia]

Tochica, in such a hard choice situation, why didn't you simply NK?

That was actually something I thought of right after IG locked the thread, and I wish I had thought of it before.

the mistake we made was WW hunting. Lynch scumreads.

No, WW hunting was the right call. Bartlet self-lynching screwed us over, even if he was right about the HC/Nat bussing in the end.

[Voidedmafia]

Mafia NK's are just as important as Town NK's to the Wolf

But Mafia couldn't kill?

bartlet: Whether or not HC was going to hammer you, that was not the optimal move, nor will it be.