Touhou UPick 2 - [Game Over]

[zMuffinMan]

where are you at with reads atm

[zMuffinMan]

so scum are probably in leftovers

so gaiden, RB, victor, axxle? purely poe or do you have scum read/s on anyone here?

Do you really think that town has 2 roles that can determine flavor like that? Pie's passive let him see what cards are used during a night. For someone who knows flavor, he can equate cards to characters. GIF's role tells him all the characters.

You think town has 2 roles like that?

i wanna put an end to this now, because i'm pretty sick of seeing this stuff and i have a feeling it could happen a bit in this game

you're asking whether it's possible for two roles that don't necessarily conflict to be town here. there's a flipped cop who claimed two investigative abilities and a claimed day cop. obviously some shit is going on in this game, and fakegod loves doing this sort of role overlap stuff

last viscon game i played, town spent a majority of the game in-fighting because there were so many role overlaps and people couldn't see them as all being town (4 roleblockers who shared a QT and a passive-reflexive-roleblocker, 2 lover pairs who shared a QT, 2 docs - one a doc/vig/lover and the other a regular doc... all of these were town and most of these roles were red herrings because both scum were strongman). i spent the entire last part of the game trying to mediate fights about overlapping roles. i'm not particularly interested in having to do this again. GIF could be scum, but try not to get too bogged down in "omg role overlaps"

(side note: iirc it almost happened in the first upick, too, because sakura - i think? - mentioned paranoia about me when both nati and i had claimed investigation immunity roles - i died before it became an issue but *shrug*)

this is a fakegod role madness game. overlaps are not uncommon. not all of the overlaps are necessarily going to be town-town, but overlaps don't mean shit here

as for the case on gif,

1) He hadn't taken a strong stance on anyone for like the last third of D1. He has expressed townreads on pretty much everyone while the last time he expressed scumreads or even a PoE list was early D1. When lynches were being organized on BM and TNE, he didn't really take firm stances. He'd comment here or there but there was never really that pursuit that should come.

this is part of the reason why i had a scum read on gif for a while D1. i felt like he wasn't trying to make any waves and was kinda just drifting with the flow. not making enemies of anyone, not carrying any sort of controversial opinions, just sort of being there. it reminded me of something someone said about my own scum play in NY169 where it apparently looked like i was trying to be everyone's friend and coast.

i started thinking gif-town after the emotional reaction he had to people continually pushing for more information about his spellcard. i could see him possibly getting upset about it in maybe a similar way as scum, but it felt like it was more of a "fuck you guys, i was doing it with the best intentions and you had to go ruin it" sort of thing. i am aware he never followed up on the whole "scum were pushing it" thing but i chalked that up mostly to the fact he was V/LA for the majority of D1 (tl;dr i disagree with point 1.b)

point 1.a i'm kind of meh on. a lot of the time when i ask questions, i'm not looking to follow up on it immediately. often i make a mental note of things and come back to it at a later point if i deem it necessary.

point 3 i'm also kind of meh on. i'm not sure whether fakegod would include a role like gif's as a town role, but the stuff about scum fake-claims i have my own theory on. the tl;dr of it is i can see scum having role names which won't implicate them in any way, and the fact that there are also town role names which don't accurately describe roles (i.e. my own, but others have claimed it's the same for them) makes me think that, if gif is town, role cop is essentially a red herring

rest of the points i actually think are decent. i wanna see what gif says here

[zMuffinMan]

also i really don't like 1632

[zMuffinMan]

What do you think of Gaiden's claiming to have lost all his spell cards?

i dunno. it's either a scum role (though i doubt scum would target gaiden with an ability like that), or a town role who's keeping it hidden for some reason (and really, they should claim that) or he's lying through his teeth.

the latter two seem far more likely than the first.

[zMuffinMan]

i think the logic is actually you should be pushing whoever you're suspicious of rather than hoping a somewhat ambiguous night action is going to make things black and white

[zMuffinMan]

2) What made it stale?

also would like to see an answer to this unless you literally cannot talk about it in which case

[zMuffinMan]

he's not a town read

do you think he's town? closest i've seen to you giving a read on him is recently stating he's doing something he does as town (by claiming that his spell cards were nuked and claiming his role name after asking why others were claiming role names)

[zMuffinMan]

he's a gaiden read - the only time i've ever felt confident~ish about a read on gaiden is the first upick game, when he was actually active and open and (dare i say it) _looked town_

and i don't know why you think he'd keep it hidden as scum. he'd know a town player destroyed his cards and would be looking to see his reactions to it

[zMuffinMan]

the fact that i can find reasons to call most other players in the game town but i can't find anything that really makes me think gaiden is town is the biggest issue i have with him atm (i.e. essentially poe)

[zMuffinMan]

90%. He's been genuine in our QT, shared role information that he wouldn't share if he was scum, and we have role synergy that wouldn't make much sense across the alignment divide

did this happen pregame or N1? who initiated this?

I'm sticking with my vote on NS. I feel like the pie/NS case (reeks of pie in 1626) is pushing too hard on setup spec and presenting GiF as slippery. It's a big wall, but it feels conf-biased and too willing to hit unreliable notes that'll ring well with this town's meta with GiF and Notsci.

. . . . .

you think notscience is scummy because he's pushing/agrees with a case pieguy wrote?

That last post gives me townfeels

sarcasm?

[zMuffinMan]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[zMuffinMan]

No

I hadn't claimed the fact it destroyed all cards but one yet

I was going to see what he did, if he admitted he had one card left. If he kept it hidden, he was scum hiding a trump card

right, but if you know what your ability does, then obviously he can't hide it or he'd be obvscum sooooooo *shrug*

Not only would he have to not have noticed it (which he wouldn't, it's gaiden), but his scumbuddies would also have to have not noticed/mentioned it, and it would also imply that neither muffin nor GIF are gaiden-buddies

eh, it depends on (a) who's scum with him and (b) whether they were looking close enough for it. i mean i know you were dropping hints everywhere but there are only a few people in the game who would actually look for those hints or pick up on them and they either already know everyone's flavour or are dead for the most part (funnily, last upick the scum team was convinced i was reisen for dropping what was actually a tewi crumb and using the word "lunatic")

Muffin - I just don't see scum muffin here, but this is as high as he's allowed to go

Spoiler:

[zMuffinMan]

i... really don't understand if people are being serious with this or pretending to be dense

[zMuffinMan]

actually, notscience, what does the ability you used on gaiden _actually_ do and what would your target be told? because i'm going back over it now and trying to figure out how, if he only had 2 spell cards, he knew you destroyed all of them but one. why wouldn't he assume your ability just destroyed one card?

[zMuffinMan]

I just don't see the situation where gaiden guessed that not-scumbuddy ns was going to reaction test for 1 spellcard left available and decided to knowingly lie and then redact before ns even reacted to it to manipulate ns and buy towncred that he wasn't at all sure he'd get.

i have read what notscience wrote and read this like 5 times now and i am still struggling to see how you leapt to that conclusion

[zMuffinMan]

hey gaiden,

why did you say all your spellcards were destroyed?

and if you thought scum were the one who did it (and everything you said suggests this is the case) what's your opinion on ns?

[zMuffinMan]

this is me reading your post, gaiden

Spoiler:

walk me through why you thought scum would use an ability on you, see you lie about the effects, and then out themselves... because you were lying about it. walk me through how you thought this would work out if scum DID actually do this and you got lynched purely because you WERE actually lying about it

it's pretty obvious why notscience is pushing gif over you (i mean, he quite literally said pie's last will was to not let gif get away). he was also calling you scum, though, and asking for opinions on your spellcards-nuked stuff, though

also if you believe notscience is capable of impersonating pieguy like that, then wow

[zMuffinMan]

He gets to pick a card to save

rest get trashed

also this just makes me interested in what card gaiden chose to save if he discarded the rolecop card prior to the discussions today

[zMuffinMan]

. . . . .

[zMuffinMan]

so that's literally as far as you thought it through, and you did not consider what would happen if someone did happen to claim they knew you were lying, or why scum would even admit to it in the first place?

[zMuffinMan]

Ns still scum. Why would you destroy all spellcards of someone you aren't sure is scum and also claimed a rolecop?

by that logic, every vig that shoots someone who isn't confirmed scum is scum

[zMuffinMan]

he substituted the word scum with they... it is essentially no different to him saying "scum nuked my cards"

do you think his explanation makes sense?

[zMuffinMan]

i don't think varsoon could scum hunt his way out of a paper bag, so i take everything he says with a grain of salt

and treating vezok's suspicions like they're ICs seems to be a pretty good strategy. pretty sure the game could be broken by asking vezok for three scum players and just never lynching them

[zMuffinMan]

victor has killed the town read i had on feirei

[zMuffinMan]

I still want to know who killed bitmap

im entertaining the idea of either a scum PGO or scum have some (probably limited) way of performing an extra kill. i am not entirely sure on what fakegod thinks of SKs but i know he's never included one in a setup before and i don't think this is multiscum and neither of those shots looks like vig kills (plus they should have fucking claimed it by now if they did vig one of them)

Yo muffin, who is more likely scum? Varsoon or VDA (play alone)

purely on play, probably varsoon. i mean, victor's done nothing town looking, but feirei gave me town feels, whereas varsoon has just been... there. he's just a soulless shell of his usual town self.

[zMuffinMan]

I mean, I'm seeing some "recycle" from the last Touhou UPick

heh

it's funny you should mention that

i'm not even the same character but my role is like a trollier version of it recycled

i mentioned it to fakegod and he was like holy shit

[zMuffinMan]

You were a goon because role names were about passive abilities, not card abilities

[zMuffinMan]

poe and lack of town read

also don't like his explanation for what he did today - but gaiden

[zMuffinMan]

also phone posting til I fix my net issues so can't really be bothered quoting

I think notscience has some idea that FakeGod assigned roles based on players which, apart from being unethical, is also completely wrong from back-and-forths I've had with him about it

GIF is almost certainly a rolecop who targeted pieguy

[zMuffinMan]

and yeah it's more that other people have done shit that I can see coming from a town mindset whereas garden has just been guidebook

Was going to fix the above typos but it's funnier letting my phone autocorrect like that

[zMuffinMan]

almost because I can think of alternate tinfoil explanations like him receiving role information on death, him reporting a scum buddy's rolecop result, etc

I tend not to deal in absolutes in role madness games

[zMuffinMan]

if youre scum, that would entirely depend on whether pieguy was your NK target and whether you thought there was anything to gain from it (like, say, claiming you can't be scum because you wouldn't do that)

[zMuffinMan]

*shrug*

what you're saying and doing atm (trying to clear yourself purely for faulty role related logic) is reminding me of what I did in your game (where I also tried to pull off a would-never-do-that-as-scum thing N2)

[zMuffinMan]

and it woulda been hilariously awesome if kagami hadn't roleblocked pieguy

just saying

[zMuffinMan]

No I think the far more likely scenario is GIF is a rolecop

You just asked why I said "almost" certainly

[zMuffinMan]

yay my net is working again (at least for now)

anyway, axxle has had like a week now and doesn't seem to have read shit, victor has like one post this day phase and it was shit, and pim replaced in within an hour of fakegod starting his search for a replacement and hasn't posted yet

i like none of these things

[zMuffinMan]

I'm sheeping Sakura/Pie's read on Pim's predeessor.

sakura was reading RB as town?

[zMuffinMan]

I could potentially wagon Axxle.

do you think he's bussing / distancing here?

[zMuffinMan]

what risk?

[zMuffinMan]

Chance of scumbuddy flipping rolecop

i don't even know why you're talking about that since i wasn't seriously suggesting it as a likelihood, only a possibility, but in a no-flips game, there's probably not that much risk of this happening

"Potential nightkill" not dying for too long

not even really sure what this means

[zMuffinMan]

like i think the most likely scenario if you're scum is you're a role cop who targeted pieguy last night. whether or not scum also performed the kill on pieguy i don't know and don't really care because even if pieguy was the scum night kill, it means nothing in terms of your alignment (ignoring the fact that notscience has a boner for you with his pieguy case)

the thing that bothers me right now is you're attempting to go, "oh, there was no point in me doing that as scum" <- i don't believe that and i don't think you believe that, either. like even if there was no other point in doing it, the fact that you can talk about it as pointless to do as scum makes it not pointless to do as scum.

[zMuffinMan]

that wasn't really an answer but whatever

i'm not particularly interested in this line of discussion since it's not going anywhere

[zMuffinMan]

the problem is that no matter how much you talk about it, it doesn't in any way 'confirm' you

which is why this isn't going anywhere

[zMuffinMan]

no

i followed the reckoning III but not close enough that i took any notice of anything he was doing

[zMuffinMan]

btw do you want that present i was going to give you D1? it's pretty amazing

[zMuffinMan]

i dunno, i already kinda told you what it is if you're paying attention

Night Sign "Midnight Bird": GIF

[zMuffinMan]

breaks the game

[zMuffinMan]

the funny thing about that spellcard though is i apparently didn't need to declare a target in thread for it (it was optional) which is something i was clarifying with fakegod earlier in the day phase while asking about gif's spellcard from D1 (it's technically a targeted spellcard that doesn't require me giving a target in thread)

it's not a particularly important spellcard, sakura - my role is literally a troll role

[zMuffinMan]

if bets weren't a violation of site rules, i'd bet good fucking money that, if this game reaches lylo, vezok is still going to be alive

[zMuffinMan]

Can someone who isn't Sgt. Chucklefuck or in his platoon please explain why they don't think GIF scum?

i'd probably be willing to vote him just because if he is scum, i wanna force him to use whatever it is that makes him unlynchable sooner rather than later

but be patient, young grasshopper

Not sure what kind of indignation he means

afaict, he was referring to the posts just before feirei replaced out, which i don't really think looked like anything more than RB getting upset at feirei voting him but *shrug*

looking at those links, it was similar to that first and second post actually

You never know.
We all thought Jaqen was gonna be alive at LyLo and surprisingly he died before then.

yeah but jaqen got killed for fake-claiming something AD thought was a threat when we made him bulletproof

otherwise, he just might have

[zMuffinMan]

If GIF is indeed 2-shot unlynchable, then he has the most anti-town role ever conceived. If it's a scum role, then scum gets 2 free NKs and would have a surprise win at mylo. If it's a town role, scum still gets 2 free NKs, unless the player is sensible enough not to use it. This makes me think it would be town if he has it, where it would be zero-utility like most of the abilities we appear to have.

problem here is that a lynch wouldn't occur if he used the spellcard (not a no lynch happening, just him being unlynchable, which is why i'm perfectly fine with testing it and forcing him to use it sooner rather than later) and this is within the scope of abilities i would expect scum to have in this game - powerful, but only in certain situations. last game, for example, pieguy had a card that was basically autowin at lylo (forces another player to vote someone) and this is somewhat different but has the same sort of utility.

He openly claimed flavor knowledge, and rolecop ability, and unlynchable x2 without any real scum motivation to do so

eh, maybe. the claiming flavour knowledge was the only part of this that was unprompted, though. he claimed unlynchable when it looked like he could be run up today, and if he is scum then the scum motivation in claiming to have rolecopped someone who died seems fairly obvious. not a fan of the whole "would have to explain why still alive" line of argument - apart from the fact there are multiple possible explanations for why someone isn't dying, we just came off a game where an inventor and kill cop who claimed a guilty both claimed D3/D2 respectively and made it to endgame (granted we tried to kill AD at the very end, but yeah)

[zMuffinMan]

(also, out of interest kagami, did you read the first upick and/or look at the role PMs for that game?)

[zMuffinMan]

actually, looking back at it, dake had a similar ability to pie's last game, so they had two ways of doing that

[zMuffinMan]

o. lol. i should have guessed that was your ability worked, i just assumed it was similar to my thing where you submitted a target privately

[zMuffinMan]

i want you to use the card that makes you unlynchable today just to (a) make you get rid of it if you are scum and (b) shift focus to someone who actually can be lynched today. coz notscience has a murderboner for you and i don't think he's going flaccid any time soon

[zMuffinMan]

Vote: GIF

why don't you just use it and save us time?

[zMuffinMan]

Screw this. My arms are too sore and can barely move to draw something with a mouse.

:<

that's ok. i just did one for you

Spoiler:

[zMuffinMan]

(and yes, i am fully aware i could make a living as an artist, i've been told that several times)

[zMuffinMan]

Let's lynch NS and end this Day

walk me through why you think notscience is scum

and then walk me through why you think kagami is the second most likely player to flip scum

Like GiF, Pim/RBs role isn't scum unless the setup is doing crazy things

what do you think of their play?

[zMuffinMan]

:<

[zMuffinMan]

nachoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

and magua

[zMuffinMan]

notscience isn't using meta-reliant play to convince me he's town, he's just been fricken playing to his town meta

basically mirrors what i'm thinking

the whole "well he could be playing like he's town as scum!" argument from varsoon is pretty awful

[zMuffinMan]

So are we just a GiF replacement away from being back to a full roster?

hey vicky (can i call you vicky?)

2003

Why are you so quick to dismiss my thinking?

because it's really bad?

because i like my eyes the way they are and want to prevent eye cancer?

because i like my eyes the way they are and don't want to have to claw them out of my skull with my bare hands?

because i like my sanity the way it is and don't want to spend the rest of my days driven mad, curled up in a ball in the corner repeating to myself, "how could anyone possibly think that? it just doesn't make any sense!"

i mean, there's a long list of reasons. pick one

[zMuffinMan]

LAL

[zMuffinMan]

placeholder

[zMuffinMan]

if that were to happen then it wouldn't matter whether or not i unvote, plus i'm not particularly worried about something like that happening to gif anyway

[zMuffinMan]

On the real, though, keeping a vote parked for placeholder instead of just unvoting? Doesn't make sense

for all intents and purposes, there is no practical difference here

Do you still think GiF is scum?

i wasn't even all that convinced he was scum when i voted him, but if he is scum, i didn't want him having the ability to make himself unlynchable in later days

[zMuffinMan]

yes

[zMuffinMan]

There's pretty much no reason at all that scum-GIF wouldn't recycle the unvotable card and save it

eh, i'm not sure about this. one reason i wanted to force him to use his unvotable spell card was because if he recycled it, i would have treated him like scum. i think he's smart enough to realise this. but more importantly, i think he was worried about sakura dayvig-killing him after he became unvotable if he DID do that (which sakura implied she had every intention of doing)

I'm still in the hold off until the replacements contribute mode. I want to see what they say before putting anything down

... given your major scum reads are on people who aren't being replaced (or weren't, prior to notscience flaking) why was this holding you back from explaining your reads?

why can't you talk about your notscience / kagami reads?

Sakura and Varsoon are the only people that I actually like as town right now

i'm town

trust me

100% would not lie about this here

[zMuffinMan]

the why is what i want to know

it's what i've asked you about twice now

[zMuffinMan]

well twice before. and welllll before sakura targeted you, so that's not an excuse for why you were avoiding it

[zMuffinMan]

you can answer the other question as well if you want, but given they fall under the category of people who are being replaced or have recently been replaced, and you said you were in a state of holding off til replacements contribute more, i asked about the ones that were still in the game (at least prior to fakegod saying ns is being replaced)

[zMuffinMan]

I'm assuming this game isn't bastardly and giving multiple votes to scum or letting them become suddenly unlynchable is bad design

neither of these are outside the scope of what i'd expect from a scum role this game

fakegod gave scum some measures to win easily in lylo last game, i expect something similar in this game (probably more in this game since it seems a bit more power heavy than the last one)

whether or not it's bad design is questionable. it's role madness - it's going to be majorly swingy regardless.

(plus i've lost to functionally unlynchable scum before - it's not fun)

[zMuffinMan]

586 also happened before both of those!

[zMuffinMan]

oh right, you're saying it's weird for notscience to ask why GIF grouped your slot and varsoon together before the claim <- i think the inference here is obvious (he thinks one of you is scum with GIF) even if it is based on faulty logic

[zMuffinMan]

eh, i've skimmed through the PBPA and all it did was remind me why i hate PBPAs

[zMuffinMan]

Why are people voting Pim?

tbh, i've been holding off solely because i was waiting on content from pim but he keeps promising it and never delivering it.

i still think RB looked like scum. and pim continually prod dodging and doing nothing means he's probably scum

[zMuffinMan]

ALL I TRUST IS THE HEART

am i town, nacho

what does your heart tell you about my heart

[zMuffinMan]

Just because part of Hana's posting I didn't like

which part? the little posting hanasawa actually did made me think town

I think he's town because I was heavily town reading RB

y?

The raging bull wagon, at L-1, by the way:
GuyInFreezer, Feirei,

zMuffinMan

,

notscience

,

pieguyn

, SXTLHGaiden,

vezokpiraka

i colour-coded it to indicate where scum is on the wagon

[zMuffinMan]

red = scum, yes

[zMuffinMan]

pim

notscience wasn't scum

[zMuffinMan]

Why town Muffin?

nacho's right to read me has been revoked for good

Yo, Muffin, what's your opinion of Raging Bull specifically?

obviously i thought he was the towniest fuck that ever towned. should be pretty obvious if you've read anything i've said about him. or you could just scroll up to 2203

[zMuffinMan]

Considering RB/Pim's claim about gaining extra votes is testable why is no one testing it?

it was suggested we test it at some point D1. but it never happened because he voted your slot D1 and the vote got stuck. i personally don't want to test it purely because i don't think he's lying about gaining extra votes from hammering but i don't think he's town

Wouldn't such a role be broken on scum though

apart from the fact it has somewhat limited utility and is potentially countered in a number of ways, it's role madness. what exactly are you expecting in terms of scum roles?

[zMuffinMan]

hey gaiden

it was nice of you
to drop in
and say hi

see you in another few days

[zMuffinMan]

no he wasn't yet

[zMuffinMan]

if RB was scum why would he admit aspect off the bat anyway. The best thing to would be to keep the information to himself, and then perhaps hold off hammering just before lylo and then take advantage. Giving the town a heads up serves no purpose

even apart from the fact that people don't always think about things optimally, in the scenario he lied about his role and simply claimed "double voter" or something, he could potentially get caught in a lie at some point prior to lylo and screw himself over

(plus, really, a double voter scum is no different to a triple voter scum in lylo and it's not even an advantage if, for example, town has a method of nullifying his vote or just outright vig killing him if he did that)

like yes, it's potentially a powerful role for scum if all goes well and he lives to lylo in a game with multiple cop investigations and other abilities that could screw him over, but what exactly do you think scum has to counter town power?

[zMuffinMan]

all role madness setups are inherently swingy. that is the nature of role madness. that's why clearing players based on how likely or unlikely it is for them to have a particular role as a certain alignment is extremely stupid when you (a) don't know the entire setup and (b) don't know what the mod was thinking when he designed the roles

for example, pieguy's role (scum) in the last touhou upick was, among other things, designed to give scum an advantage if pieguy made it to lylo (essentially autowin) which would have basically meant a surprise lylo the day before actual lylo if things had played out differently (i.e. if the hider hadn't killed himself on pieguy N1) (also of note there was a town hated in that game so it would have been a surprise lylo in every sense of the term)

this setup has more players (really only one more, but given there was a town treestump last game, it's technically two more), and probably more overall town power - i would be extremely surprised if scum don't have something on par with what pieguy had in last game (or stronger).

so when you say it feels unbalanced, i shake my head and shrug. it's definitely swingy, i don't think that necessarily makes it "unbalanced"

[zMuffinMan]

There are four dead townies, if Pim ends up being town (and really the lynch seems to be going ahead with the same level of thought as the new earth lynch yesterday is) then the game is probably going to be a scum blow out

ok, i think you're exaggerating here, but how would this change if notscience-slot is lynched and ends up being town? or <insert name of any other player>

and what exactly are you proposing we do?

i think RB-slot is scum. i went over my reasons while RB was still in the game; since pim has replaced in all he's done is prod dodge with promises of content (and fakegod could potentially be looking for yet another replacement soon if he doesn't pick up the prod). i don't think that slot is town.

[zMuffinMan]

But I don't see any reason to see this slot as scum right now

that's why i asked you to give me an opinion on his play, not his role

did you think RB looked town? do you think pim looks town?

[zMuffinMan]

The better question is surely do I think RB looked like scum. The answer is I can't remember anything scummy he did

the questions essentially lead to the same answer so whatevs

i *really* don't want to put together a case on RB unless i have to :<

it's a lot of time and effort when the "case" could be found scattered across my ISO

tl;dr of it is the way he was scum hunting came across as really fake - most of the questions he was asking lacked direction or point, most of the statements he was making lacked any real analysis, and the stances he was taking on certain things didn't look town

[zMuffinMan]

if you want some quick examples off the top of my head, stuff like questioning why a cop didn't investigate a miller, after calling them both town, then proceeded to suggest they were buddies (iirc). awkward questions to me about what i thought of feirei's(your) vote-sticking stuff rather than questioning me about what i think of feirei(you).

and you know that thing you called notscience scummy for at the start of today (questioning gaiden's hammer). that's what RB did sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

[zMuffinMan]

also not really sure what a case is going to do if you haven't really read his posts or formed an opinion on them (which is odd given you have opinions on like... everyone else)

[zMuffinMan]

i wasn't sure whether you had since the only comment i remember you making about RB (all game) was something about him town reading his wagon easily

[zMuffinMan]

(apart from the stuff you've said about his role, i mean)

The cop bit is weird but could just easily be derpy town

*shrug* just about anything could arguably be derpy town, though really i think that's more likely to come from a scum mindset than a town mindset

[zMuffinMan]

eh, it's midnight and i'm about to go to sleep. if i'm feeling super generous, i might write a case when i wake up

[zMuffinMan]

Just comb your ISO and quote the parts that are there

i don't think i ever wrote something resembling a case on RB, though - it was a read that evolved over the course of D1 through conversations with him and about him - the reasoning is sprinkled all over

[zMuffinMan]

Were these your favorite points?

they were examples of the point. the point being that most of the questions he was asking had no goal in mind; there was no direction to them, no trying to figure out this person's alignment through the answer to the question, no trying to advance the game in any way through the answers to the questions, just questions for the sake of questions. it was faux scum hunting

so you say those things are crazy, not scummy. on their own, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe you'd have a point, but they're part of a larger body of work - it never looked like he was interested in figuring out the game. there were a couple questions here or there asking about reads but even then, rarely any follow up

as far as stances he took, i don't really remember his reads. the feirei read was the only major one he pushed for most of the game and that looked awkward as fuck. i questioned him on this, too, given he wasn't really concerned with pushing the read, and all i really got was that feirei was lurky and feirei voted him and bitmap. at some point he said he thought i was scum, but no one really agreed with him (other than lolvezok). D2 comes around, this changed for magical reasons that he never really talked about and instead gaiden was scummier than feirei and i for hammering close to the deadline D1.

there was virtually nothing in his ISO that i could point to and say, "ok, i can see that thought process more likely coming from a town mindset than a scum mindset" <- the questions he was asking were shit, the stances he was taking were shit, and his overall play was shit. pieguy backed off at him when he raged at feirei for voting him, but sakura recently linked to an almost identical example of him doing that sort of thing as scum, so i don't really know what pieguy was thinking with that.

all that said, even if you aren't reading my ISO, why aren't you reading RB's ISO to form your own opinion on this? why are my reasons important to you?

[zMuffinMan]

Vote: Pim

[zMuffinMan]

dicking around about GiF when he's not voteable isn't anywhere near as useful as actually getting off your ass and doing something useful like saying who you'd actually want to lynch

what the fuck are you on about? i was talking about RB, not GIF

[zMuffinMan]

the feeling is mutual, don't worry

i would vig the fuck out of you without a second thought

[zMuffinMan]

Feels like kicking a dude while he's not here to put his dukes up

orrrrrrrrrrrrr he could just be lurking scum

*gasp*

shocking, right?

Town flip gives shit for info.
Everyone's blameless in the lynch

if you're really into wagon analysis and that is your argument for or against a lynch, the Pim(RB) wagon is technically superior to any other wagon <- there are a mountain of interactions with RB from D1 and a bit from D2, soooooo yeah

but he's likely scum so this is a shit argument on that level as well

[zMuffinMan]

hahaha. fuck me, that actually made me laugh really hard irl

[zMuffinMan]

can i sig that last part when he flips scum?

[zMuffinMan]

then i'm wrong? it's still a ridiculous statement

[zMuffinMan]

UNVOTE:
Ugh, you're no fun.

what were you expecting here? im not going to bet my life on him being scum, if that's what you're disappointed about. i think he's very likely scum but im not arrogant enough to do something stupid like that

given there's a little over a day to the deadline, what exactly do you want to do here?

[zMuffinMan]

sakuraaaaa

don't get distracted by shiny things

[zMuffinMan]

i would .like it if everyone came together and had a nice group hug before lynching the fuck out of pim for great justice

alternatively, i am perfectly fine with PLing vezok if there is enough support for that but i dunno if there is this close to deadline which makes me pretty sad

anyway i have a headache and i'm tired and i dunno if i will be around again before deadline

pls don't make me a sad panda

[zMuffinMan]

inb4 lock

[zMuffinMan]

double post

[zMuffinMan]

i really fucking hate this lack of role flips

[zMuffinMan]

Strongman + Strongwilled 1 shot night kill.
I can't be redirected, roleblocked and cant be blocked by protects or bulletproof.

how the fuck is victor still alive

like unless sakura changed her target to one of the other two that died (and it would have to be gaiden given her stance on ns/mala) i don't see how the fuck he is still alive

[zMuffinMan]

i was thinking *maybe* sakura was an honourable vig similar to notscience's role last game, but nope, everything she wrote at the end of the day suggests that isn't the case and i can't find anything that looks like a crumb like that plus i really think that's something she woulda made obvious (if not outright claiming it) sooooooooooooooooooo :/

[zMuffinMan]

She was fakeclaiming >.>

try to fake an ability in thread, nacho

[zMuffinMan]

Night Sign - Day Kill: Nacho

[zMuffinMan]

fuck, i hope i didn't just kill myself

[zMuffinMan]

the only thing i could *maybe* see being a fake-claim is if she wasn't actually strongman+strongwilled like she claimed and that was just a gambit to prevent scum from blocking her (in which case, regardless of whether scum roleblocked her, vezok's claimed action would have saved victor)

though even that i don't think is all too likely because she made a big deal out of lynching her being the only way to prevent it going through

soooooooooooooooooooo

massive *shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

NACHO DIE YOU SCUM FUCK

[zMuffinMan]

that is a really weird thing to enter with given even when i did really, really, really think nacho was scum, i wouldn't describe my behaviour towards him as "at his throat"

[zMuffinMan]

uh

it's likely mylo or lylo or something. there's likely a SK in the game. lots of stuff happened. people want lots of people dead. most of them died. some didn't. i'm town

this is a pretty good summary i think

[zMuffinMan]

dunno

most people have claimed at least some aspect of their role, you have claimed most of your role? that's about it

[zMuffinMan]

vezok is IC who had a vig shot and used it on sakura
sakura was like a JOAT except not who used a day ability to NK victor who didn't die (she claimed it was strongman + strongwilled but it didn't go through and vezok said his ability roleblocked so)
victor and varsoon are neighbours and have some vote locking ability. victor used a spell card yesterday but i dunno what it did and now i'm just realising it could have been something to nullify sakura's ability
bork claimed minor aspects of his role and hinted at stuff but that's about it
kagami claimed miller and has some joat aspect to her role which apparently has some utility that we don't know about but doesn't seem to be anything antitown from what i can tell (she used something on me d1)
and i've hinted at the negative utility aspect of my role and i told GIF a joke - it was pretty good

[zMuffinMan]

and bitmap was a claimed cop with 2 shots, pieguy had a boner for your slot and wanted it dead pretty bad, he and ns/mala were neighbours, both hated, pieguy had some abilities that ns talked about, gaiden was something or other, ns destroyed his cards last night, pim was a multivoter, some other shit, something, something

i forget what i'm missing

[zMuffinMan]

and everyone's flavour is known

[zMuffinMan]

fakegod should have sent it to you unless he is a bastard mod

and no, not that i know of

[zMuffinMan]

wait did gif target me?

[zMuffinMan]

yeah, gif rolecopped you night 2, and didn't get anything back

that would be the expected outcome of targeting me

actually since this is likely xylo i'm just going to full claim this aspect of my role. i have a passive ability called floating darkness that force-commutes me every night

You really have no idea who could be scum at this point?

i have ideas. none that i would bet the game on

i'm kinda bummed about pim flipping town. that was like the one scum read i was confident about yesterday

so now i'm wallowing in self-pity and observing

[zMuffinMan]

yeah well

half the game replaced out yesterday and that was a really cool and fun thing to have happen

and so far the lynches have been like

some dude: "hey i think TNE is scum"
everyone else: "YA WE ALL AGREE LET'S LYNCH HIM"
me: "hey i think RB-slot is scum"
everyone else: "YA WE ALL AGREE LET'S LYNCH HIM"

which, in hindsight, should have been setting off massive alarm bells for me, but i thought maybe he was a sacrificial lamb offered to appease the bus gods

[zMuffinMan]

the bus gods get angry when they are not appeased

[zMuffinMan]

(I can say scumfuck, right?)

no, it's not politically correct

the correct term is "scum coitus"

[zMuffinMan]

Varsoon is cop confirmed?

yes

via sakura

that also happened

[zMuffinMan]

ignore the botched quote

[zMuffinMan]

rumia

[zMuffinMan]

presumably it had something to do with testing what i was hinting at

[zMuffinMan]

or thinking i was lying or i dunno? RNG?

[zMuffinMan]

because

no

[zMuffinMan]

actually it was partially because i didn't send him one in the first upick and he might have felt left out (i had the exact same ability in the first upick), but mostly just because

[zMuffinMan]

Nah he was town. I knew that before I saw the role PM.

for someone that hadn't been reading the game, that's some pretty keen insight!

[zMuffinMan]

what do you think about the TNE lynch wagon?

why are you interested in that wagon specifically?

[zMuffinMan]

GiF is one I could conceivably be wrong about in some games. Not with this game's iso.

OK, i believe you since i can see no scum motivation for you to lie about something like this. do you have thoughts on the game yet?

[zMuffinMan]

i was the main reason the pim wagon happened (or at least i was the driving force behind it) so that one was on me

the TNE wagon just kind of happened as a compromise deadline lynch or something (we didn't even get a claim out of him)

the game was moving at a snail's pace D2 because half the game replaced out but a majority of it was dominated by a NS v GIF fight (because pieguy and NS had a boner for your slot and wanted it to die in a fire)

Seems like there are some players who really haven't made a strong appearance yet on day 3.

who specifically are you referring to?

[zMuffinMan]

both of them replaced in late D2 but yeah neither of them have done anything particularly memorable yet

also don't really know how you could have read my play in that way

[zMuffinMan]

i'm town!

nacho said he's town, though

that's pretty convincing

[zMuffinMan]

With the flips, I'm back to square one

This is what I understand.
VOTE: Kagami

If you think Victor's scum, why aren't you voting for him?
I think you're fishing too hard for bites.

you went from back to square one to this pretty quickly

do you still think victor is town?

[zMuffinMan]

two weeks are going to drag by at a snail's pace and then the Day is going to end in a no lynch

eh, tbh, i don't see that as so much of a bad thing here. regardless of whether the second killing party is SK or whether it's two scum teams, scum pretty much need to cross kill here and no lynching to force the issue here seems like not a bad idea.

the only way i see a scum lynch happening today is with scum's help

[zMuffinMan]

The way he responded to knowing he will die. He didn't seem like concerned scum.

but he didn't die

[zMuffinMan]

what are you fond of?

[zMuffinMan]

there are no pizzas in gensoukyou

[zMuffinMan]

I don't want to think of Victor as scum

who do you think is scum?

Based on Sakura's description of her spellcard, did you think there was any chance of me dying last night?

i thought you would die. but you didn't (and i do not buy that she was fake-claiming the strongman stuff given i cannot make sense of her play at the end of yesterday if she was fake-claiming that, but i do not see much point in speculating about why you survived right now in case i am wrong)

"the way he responded to knowing he will die" is a nonsensical statement given you didn't die

[zMuffinMan]

Like, literally, you went and killed the towniest-because-they're-town-not-because-of-mod-confirmation player, and roleblocked them from killing the most-obvious-scum-player-who-was-only-not-lynched-yesterday-because-they-were-going-to-get-vigged

i do not really like his choice of vig shot, but i do not see much point in crying over spilled milk

do you have suspects other than victor?

[zMuffinMan]

I expected more mockery of the IC than this

i totally and utterly disagree but i respect your right to have differing opinions

@zmuffin: If you commute can you use other actions?

it's automatic, and no

[zMuffinMan]

Magua voted for the only person who he can't unvote. And then he complains of a deadline no lynch. Can you not see how scum he is?

he might be scum, but i don't think those are good reasons for thinking he's scum. i could see both of those coming from either alignment, really. i'm more concerned with his fixation on victor to the point it's all he really talks about.

[zMuffinMan]

So yeah, unless your saying I am psychic the argument doesn't fly.

i'm saying if you're scum, you knew the kill was not going to go through

[zMuffinMan]

How?

i don't know. i could speculate. but it seems rather fruitless

he signed up for a lot of games thinking he will die

i have difficulty believing he thought he'd die in a single game and so signed up for multiple games.

if zmuffin is telling the truth about his ability he is not the SK

pretty sure being able to perform actions while commuting would be borderline bastard

also pretty sure i wouldn't have said shit about my role if i were scum, much less if i could perform actions at night

[zMuffinMan]

But what I'm getting at is that I had very little reason to assume I would be alive today, and I feel like your ignoring the more obvious (Victor thought he was dying) and instead trying to force yourself to believe I would be here.

i'm not ignoring that. it is a possibility

[zMuffinMan]

well i don't know if i'm unable to act, i don't have night actions

presumably if i did, i wouldn't be able to use them

[zMuffinMan]

also

it wouldn't totally prevent me from being targeted at night if that's what you're trying to chase down.

this is different from mine

i am pretty sure no action that isn't a strongman of sorts will work on me

[zMuffinMan]

the way the card i used on GIF works

i checked this over with fakegod when stuff was being discussed re: cards in thread because of the wording on the card and the card i used didn't actually have to name a target in thread (it was apparently optional) because i could give him a target along with the message after using the card in thread

that's what i was referring to D2 when i said there were other possibilities i could see happening with the way gif's card was formatted D1 and i also think i explained this at some point but i can't be bothered trying to find exactly where (it'll be in my D2 posts)

[zMuffinMan]

I think that Vezok is onto something with Kagami. I don't like the posturing.

what "posturing" are you referring to here?

[zMuffinMan]

you mean 2530? i agree with what kagami wrote there, though

it's also part of the reason i don't like this line:

Also why 1 v 1 here. I got to have buddies right?

[zMuffinMan]

yeah, reminded me of the sort of silly gambits I've tried when I get caught

how the fuck was that a gambit?

it was a logical assessment of the game state

it's likely 4v3v1 or something like that. if magua is town, then any lynch that happens today that isn't victor is going to require heavy scum involvement. if magua is scum, then lynching him is sensible. if neither magua nor victor is scum, then magua's vote screwed us (because any other lynch that happens is going to require heavy scum involvement - although i do not think it's likely they are both town so this scenario isn't very high on my list of concerns). and if they are both scum, then lynching between the two is sensible.

[zMuffinMan]

er

that was varsoon*

victor varsoon both Vs

[zMuffinMan]

though that was a strange over-reaction given it was fairly obvious i fucked up the quote

[zMuffinMan]

Y'know, just being like, "Even if I am scum, I have partners, we should probably use the whole day, etc. etc."

that's more like what victor said than what kagami said

[zMuffinMan]

haha

[zMuffinMan]

i was thinking SK was among the people who have been more reserved about their role (you or magua) or GIF (because his claimed stuff is like a god role for a SK to have regardless of whether he's full claimed all his abilities)

also, i think that's the nicest thing you've ever said to me

[zMuffinMan]

nothing like the votesticking as far as i know

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin, please don't type so slow :<

i was brushing my teeth. i gotta be up in like 5.5 hours for work

Do you agree with my Kagami read?

not really. kagami could be scum, but nothing i've seen makes me think it's any more likely than a scum team involving not-kagami players

(i have this really nice fence that i'm sitting on atm, and while the pickets dig into my ass cheeks, i'm sitting and watching how people are reacting)

i had feirei as pretty town, too. but i don't think victor looks town.

i had hanasawa as town, but i don't think magua looks town.

i've had ill feelings about varsoon for most of the game but he has a cop inno on him and nobody else thinks he's scum

i didn't have any strong feelings about bork's play, and i trust my ability to read you like i trust a rng

i thought kagami looked town in the early stages of the game. i thought some of the things she said D2 looked townish. i thought some of the things she said today looked townish, too. but she's playing a really reserved game where it seems like she's holding her cards close to her chest and it's making me :<

i thought some things gif did looked like town. i thought some things gif did looked like scum. ffery's play so far has been a mass of questions and not much analysis and that's not making me feel comfortable about her.

i don't have any reads i'd bet the game on right now. and nobody is really doing anything to change this. which makes me a really sad panda.

[zMuffinMan]

i really wanted pim to flip scum

most of my views of the game state were dependent on that read being right

[zMuffinMan]

what does that actually do? no day phases?

[zMuffinMan]

pretty sure the only protective roles in the game are dead or self-protecting

[zMuffinMan]

was bork town or scum, nacho?

(spoiler your answer so only i can read it)

[zMuffinMan]

varsoon/victor

[zMuffinMan]

Spoiler:

green shit

see that's funny. because my shit isn't green this game, it's really blue. it's so blue, it's like i've been eating nothing but blue jellybeans for a week now and it smells like candy.

also it's really fucking cold in australia and my hands are blue

that's how town i am

[zMuffinMan]

yep

[zMuffinMan]

if you're going to wagon one of your scum reads, i think magua is a better choice than kagami tbh

i really need to sleep now. might be around before work, else prob not til late tonight

[zMuffinMan]

You don't thnk bork was incredibly town?

i heard when bork is town he makes it incredibly obvious he's town. but that didn't happen here. you keep referencing the argument he had with me and saying how he was town from that but i see nothing town there. why are you acting like that was town posting?

the best reason i can think of for bork maybe being town had absolutely nothing to do with his play.

btw, is the mokou mention in your role PM part of an ability? if so, what is that ability's name?

Which basically means you or Muffin SK, which now probably means Muffin SK

Which makes sense, considering I'm pretty much his role's opposite (I'm good when people target me and encourage people to target me while Muffin is anti-target)

yeah... whenever you say something like this, i can never tell whether you're playing dumb or you still don't have the faintest idea what my scum game looks like compared to my town game (and i know SK isn't technically "scum", but for all intents and purposes here, the same principles apply)

like the first thing you should know about my scum game (regardless of what sort of scum i am) is that i would never, ever, ever give town information about an ability that is essentially anti-town. i wouldn't claim it. i wouldn't hint at it. i would stay completely silent about it. you should know this from marketplace where i made it my goal to mass anti-town abilities and claimed absolutely none of them despite the fact it would have been seen as pro-town to do it in that game. you saw the same thing in imperishable night when i had an ascetic ability. literally any time i've been scum and had an ability like this, i've chosen not to claim it because anti-town abilities are simply more useful if town doesn't know about them. like the only possible reason i'd ever claim an anti-town ability as scum is if i thought it would serve a purpose, but i don't think there'd be any reason to claim that sort of thing in a game like this (and before anyone says anything like "town cred", no. i'm cocky enough that i think my scum game doesn't require me doing cheap things like that for whatever town cred it would afford me - i don't need to do that, i am pretty confident i can look town without it)

another thing you should know about my scum game is that i'm a fairly low-risk scum player. i play it smart, i play it safe, and i don't do stupid shit that could backfire on me. again, this is something you should really know from looking at how cautious i am when we've been scum together. or any game you've seen me play scum (side note: i will be slightly disappointed if you aren't aware of exactly what i did to pieguy N2 in gif's touhou game and i felt really cheated that kagami fucked up my super duper awesome plan of awesomeness). you know what i've never done as scum? ask for people to use abilities on me. it's simply not a risk i'd ever take because it's not worth the trouble if i ever did it as scum and it backfired on me. so like, unless your theory is that i'm like... what? a day godfather night commuter super overpowered scum dude, i don't really see how you can possibly think it makes sense to think i'm scum here. (further, i do not actually believe fakegod would allow scum to have a passive like mine in a game - it'd be kinda borderline bastard if i could perform actions while being untargetable)

and here's the thing. even if you are avoiding giving a read on me by play (and i think i'm fairly obvtown via play but i know anything i say about this is going to be treated as wifom so *shrug*), none of the above has anything to do with my play. none of the above is WIFOM. it is a huge fucking gaping difference between my town and scum games that even those who think me hard to read should be able to understand. you know all this. and you're still entertaining the idea i can be scum. which is fucking laughable.

I remain unsure which among {muffin, GIF, you} are scum, since there has to be one in that group and I'm townreading all three slots

SPOILER ALERT: i am town

sorry to all those following along who didn't want to be spoiled!

Then he could have been shot because he was really town?

gaiden?

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

oh nacho, you thilly goothe

I can imagine scum being afraid of protection if they don't have a strongman kill

i would be surprised if fakegod didn't give either scum a strongman ability given my role and the fact he seems to like strongman roles (like gif's role in the previous touhou upick or both scum roles in viscon 1523)

I tried to do so with Muffin but us trying to read each other is a pretty atrocious sight so immediately gave that up.

have you just been ignoring my posts altogether and not trying to form a read based on play? or...? coz i understand being hesitant about giving a read either way, i don't really understand why you're not even going to try

[zMuffinMan]

Victor is scum

what are your other reads?

only thing i've really seen you talk about is victor. you mentioned ffery as a weak scum read i think and you seem to be town reading varsoon? do you have other reads?

Other than that Nacho is mostly townposting and I'm happy to keep him with Muffin/Vez/Varsoon in my townpile.

how many scum do you think there are? because that's 4 town reads and unless you think it's 5v2v1 that doesn't make a lot of sense

[zMuffinMan]

btw nacho

two more reasons i'm really obviously not scum if you're not going to look at my play. i'm pretty sure that other than maybe bitmap (though if i were scum he wouldn't be much of a threat to me) and sakura (same deal), none of the people who died at night are people i would have targeted as scum over, say, an IC who's been calling me scum for a while now (pretty sure i would never let an IC get anywhere near a xylo situation regardless of whether they're scum reading me, let alone if they actually are - i think the only reason vezok is still alive is because his primary suspicions for most of the game were me and notscience and scum were counting on him pushing me at some point). also, not that this matters to you because i'm pretty sure you know shit-all about flavour, but from a flavour perspective, it wouldn't make a lot of sense for my character to be able to perform night actions, anyway (i crash into trees because i can't see where i'm going in a ball of darkness) - fakegod seems to be pretty faithful to flavour stuff like that, i don't think he'd overlook this, so unless you think i'm scum who can't perform actions (which would basically confirm me as not-SK and would be a terrible role to give scum), it's faaaaaaaaairly obvious i'm town!

[zMuffinMan]

Do you agree with my townpile Muffin?

i want to see what nacho says in response to me and what he is thinking before i say anything about him, but i will say that if you think he couldn't have done what he's done today as scum, you're severely underestimating his scum game

varsoon i'm meh on. by play alone, he hasn't done anything that looks all that town to me. his D1 play felt completely disengaged from the game and not in a lurking-but-still-working-shit-out kind of way, but in a trying-to-stay-under-the-radar-and-coast kind of way. i've seen a couple posts by him D2/D3 that i've kinda liked sorta maybe but nothing like i'm used to seeing from town-varsoon

I kinda think that's why there's so much noise about me being SK maybe.

what does this mean?

[zMuffinMan]

do you have thoughts on the game

[zMuffinMan]

if i were to vote someone right now, it would be magua

[zMuffinMan]

Beyond what I've posted?

i dunno, i was kind of hoping if you were town you'd be all about invigorating this game with analysis and giving me that warm feeling of safety and security i get when you're town and it feels more like you've been sitting in an armchair and watching over us than injecting your thoughts into the game. i mean, i suppose that's a little hypocritical given how on the fence i am with my own opinions at the moment but *shrug* i'm me and i'm awesome

[zMuffinMan]

i think what makes me most uncomfortable about you is that i generally associate town-hunting with your town play and you've been more about "magua/victor scum" than "i think X looks town"

[zMuffinMan]

that is part of why i don't trust the varsoon investigation, actually

he *could* be town, but it means that only one other player is town and that means there's been a metric fuckton of scum theatre going on today

[zMuffinMan]

i could spend a couple hours writing about the thoughts i've had about the game as i lie down at night in my room where there are no windows and the walls are completely coated in tin foil

[zMuffinMan]

i tend to bottle those thoughts in what i call the crazy jar, never to be opened and share publicly, because it would make people give me funny looks

[zMuffinMan]

i suggested a mass claim at some point on D1 and a lot of people rejected the idea because abilities that apparently become useless when known

i don't think there's as much to be gained from a mass claim in a fakegod setup as a different setup because ~fakegod~ but i would be cool with mass claiming at this point if everyone actually agreed to it

[zMuffinMan]

magua should full claim regardless

[zMuffinMan]

So one of the things I look at in LYLO/MYLO, especially as a replacement is the attitudes players bring to the last game day, especially when there are confirmed town, because behaviors kind of flip around. Scum can smell the win in the air. Just one more mislynch. Town suddenly have to care a ton about being mislynched and fight/wriggle/avoid being mislynched in much the way scum do earlier in the game.

Unless the game is sunk in apathy. But, apathy is a friend to players who aren't town.

The only player who really seems to have any passion about winning is Vezok. Which is great and all, but he's sorted.

mmmmmmmmmmm

what are your thoughts on #2817/#2819 then? because apart from the fact that me writing a town case on myself based on stuff that has nothing to do with play is the closest thing you'll ever see to a town tell from me (like, it is literally the only stuff i couldn't or wouldn't theoretically fake as scum because my scum day play may be thoroughly entrenched in WIFOM, but night play and role-based play i'm extremely methodical about as scum), it also falls under the criteria you just described as town play (unless i'm completely misinterpreting what you meant here)

and why am i not sensing any passion from you?

[zMuffinMan]

victor

is there a reason you're not voting magua?

[zMuffinMan]

Maybe that's why overall the interest in how today plays out seems low?

maybe. i think this is "more of the same" rather than a sudden change in attitude, though, which kinda sucks

it's a sad game when i have the most posts and i don't even feel i've been posting *that* much

[zMuffinMan]

prod dodge. couldn't get on site earlier. reading in a bit

[zMuffinMan]

PROD DODGE AGAIN

[zMuffinMan]

will get to this after sleep

[zMuffinMan]

But look at mala's wagon from yesterday: vezokpiraka, Varsoon, VictorDeAngelo. If all three are town, then why on earth would scum kill such an easy-to-mislynch slot?

i was thinking about this a little during the week of downtime and i think this more than anything points strongly to one scum in {varsoon, victor}. the only possible explanation i could think of that would maaaaaaaybe mean both town is if scum had committed to a town read on mala/ns-slot and couldn't really change their read without making it obvious to the other scum (possible given there's no real way they could have known it would be 8p xylo today) orrrrrrr possibly because they feared mala's ability to destroy cards (and whatever else i might have forgotten about, don't really remember what ns claimed apart from the whole gaiden thing)

Talking about anyone else besides Victor, until Victor is lynched, is kinda pointless

you're not really doing much in the way of pushing your lynch other than repeating "victor is scum" over and over (and some point about how you should be confscum from his pov which is actually incorrect but whatever)

If Victor is scum, then people who have incentive to vote him are town, which means my card would be geared towards shutting down town's daycards.

if you are town, this seems like a fairly typical fakegod role. last fakegod game i was in (viscon 1523), i was a reflexive roleblocker, except both scum players were strongmen, so my role was entirely anti-town in nature (serving only to block the numerous town roles). it would not surprise me if there's some weird mechanic like that in this game where your role is basically a red herring that's anti-town in nature (similar to the fact that i'm assuming scum have easy ways around my forced commute so my role is basically a big fuck you to town but probably easily bypassed by scum)

also not really sure why you felt the need to use your card here and now

[zMuffinMan]

Do you seriously believe kagami and magua aren't scum together and are both town and voting for victor?

the question at this point isn't so much whether kagami and magua are both town, but whether or not one of them is town

think about it like this: if even one of them is town, then the only way a lynch outside of victor happens today is if scum busses (assuming 4:3:1 with 5 to lynch)

[zMuffinMan]

also i just realised there's 2 days to deadline and i don't even know if nacho and victor are still around

[zMuffinMan]

(btw, if i were to vote right now, i'd probably be voting victor. i do not think it is at all likely the both kagami and magua are town, but i remember having vague~ish feelings about kagami being town prior to site breaking and also there's a lot more indicating victor-scum than kagami-scum. magua i could also vote, but i really don't see how magua could be lynched if he's group scum unless at least one of his buddies buses and they really have no incentive to do that here given the current situation and votecount)

[zMuffinMan]

i was gonna ask you to verify that you can actually do what you said you could but then i remembered frozen cards so :<

[zMuffinMan]

It's super demotivational

so instead your plan is to whine and not do anything about it

k

And you're all "not confscum" but he is. It's 4:3:1 and I'm town

yeah... see, it's the last two words that i don't really believe