NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[Albert B. Rampage]

His posts since Day 4 looks town.

[ChannelDelibird]

@ABR

[mathcam]

CDB: Dude. I totally would've posted that if I had had it when ABR voted me. Kudos.

ABR: Nah, let's do poro today.

[undo]

I can't really help that I've had to defend myself. Lots of different people have attacked me at different points. There's almost continuously been at least one person strongly pushing for my lynch. And I think it's a little unfair to say I've done little original scumhunting (go compare your scumhunting wrt me with my scumhunting wrt Yos, is it really that different?).

The fact that there's almost always one person pushing for your lynch should mean something -- at the least, it means you look intersubjectively scummy. The same doesn't happen with Yosarian, for example. Also, you have been obsessing with Yosarian since Day 3, and from then on your votes on him are only interrupted by votes on Sotty, a well-established wagon at the time. It doesn't look good.

You know, I actually think you have got less scummy in your most recent posts. But then I just can't forget your behavior during the first days, with that LML-attacking so early in the game and all. It's no use repeating my arguments, but I still think they are very valid.

[VitaminR]

Where there's smoke, there's fire? We can do better than that, surely. Especially when you consider that many, if not most, of the people who've suspected/voted me are of unconfirmed alignment (e.g. Yos, ABR, CDB as OGML, to a lesser extent GC and MBL).

But I concede that you have a point in that I ran out of steam a bit after Day 2 (after I turned out to be wrong about pj

and

Glork). It's only recently that I've felt like I'm getting a little bit of a grip on the game again (and perhaps largely because I found a strong scumread in Yos).

As for obsessing over Yosarian, you realize you haven't voted anyone but me in almost a month, right? (Longer than I've been voting Yos for in any case.)

[Yosarian2]

VitR, your "case" on me is entirely bullshit, and I'm sure you know that. You're only claiming to have a "strong scumread" on me because you don't like the fact that I've been voting and attacking you.

It's worth pointing out that you claimed to find me less scummy late yesterday, but as soon as I questioned you over your defense of STD, you went right back to attacking me, with even more absurd reasoning.

[Juls]

There are some interactions between mathcam and STD that do not look like buddies. I can reference them all for you given time (/broken record).

Interesting. Where? If you don't have time to explain, just post numbers would be fine.

This first and will try to get more up later today (depending on my kids behave)

I am skimming back through my notes and think I overstated this. There was one very early and I thought I had noted more but I don't see them right off the bat. Perhaps when I do a more detailed post I will remember what I saw. The one early, by SSK, I already mentioned. Post 235.

oh but I don't know if I'm ready. my body's saying yes, but my heart is saying yes...

Wait a minute.

Vote: LML

Wait. Why? Do you think your mind could chime in here?

Seems like pretty genuine surprise to me. I am trying to imagine in my own head a buddy saying this to a buddy who is voting a buddy. It doesn't really compute but I suppose it isn't impossible.

[Juls]

Just out of curiousity, Yosarian, do you have any comments about my Post 3675?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I can't be the only one who's tired of discussing. Lynch CDB!

[Juls]

I am going to do these one at a time and since Wolverine is so rushy-rushy I will start with him. I wouldn't say ABR is in my top 3 for scum but he isn't as townie as present-day talk seems to indicate in my opinion. I am still waiting for him to be THAT. I am only through page 56 but I feel like if I dont get these out you all will end the day.

ABR

Possibly mafia with:

Porochaz

I am not crazy about the hard-and-early scum-read on LML. It rings as knowing too much. His first vote on LML was page 4 and he continued to push him throughout day one. Plus here, he moves back to LML after voting PJ for less than 2 hours. The PJ jump might be an attempt to push the day a different direction but then the quick jump back seems like he didn't think it was going to happen. Then he goes back to PJ completely reversing his read on LML. I thought it might be reaction testing but I never saw anything to indicate that later.

I also made note of the fact that CTD claimed that this is not ABR's town meta. I haven't played with ABR in years but I remember getting an extremely strong town read on him when he was, in fact, town. I don't get this here at all. The reason I have listed Porochaz as a potential buddy with ABR is the fact that Poro dismisses CTD saying this referencing a recent game with ABR and then CTD read what Poro was linking and disagrees with Poro's assessment.

As for interactions with dead scum, there isn't alot. There's a little banter from LML and a useless question here and there but nothing major.

There were three other things I didn't like about ABR on reread as well. First was his town reads list early day one. Specifically DGB and farside. DGB had only made 1-2 posts and farside barely did anything, I think she asked a question and not even a good one at that. The other thing is coming into day 2 and setting forth the Bookitty wagonas where we needed to lynch from. If you look at that wagon now, you will see that there are Sotty, Shanba, CES, undo, CTD on the wagon plus chamber and mathcam. I have a strong town read on chamber so viewing this post through retrospective glasses, I really hate it. Similarly, he guarantees DGB that we will lynch PJ and Sotty upon her flip. Again, retrospective glasses says this is yuck.

As for town-vibes, I liked post 1276 in response to DGB's flip-flop on ABR. And....that's about it.

[Green Crayons]

I find Juls's posts interesting and useful, though I do not necessarily agree or disagree with every observation she makes, so I'm fine with the day lingering for her to get her thoughts down out in the thread.

I don't find the usual back-and-forths to be interesting or useful (e.g., Yos-versus-Vitamin). So I have begun to skim these posts.

I find it interesting that new back-and-forths have not arisen. In particular, Porochaz's willful failure to address anything about his wagon has not escaped my notice, even though his posts this game day make clear that he has kept an eye on the here-and-now, not just on 50 pages ago. Feels like scum hoping that if he does not bring attention to the votes on him, that will minimize the focus of such votes, and therefore those votes might drift away to more actively discussed players.

[Juls]

mathcam/SSK

Possible scum with:

SpyreX(inhim..et al)

Not scum with:

Yosarian (weak), ABR

Interactions with dead scum: So the first thing I noticed was that LML said that the interaction betwen SSK and STD was "off". I am not sure how to interpret it, I will let you smarter folks dive into that but it was an interaction I felt was worth noting. There were also a few weak/possible readable interactions from STD. He asked a weak question here. He said he believed the complete opposite of him here. One other thing that I think could be a

slip

was when mathcam quoted something in 1339 and indicated as it coming from inhim but it was really from STD. I can totally see scum confusing two buddies. STD pointed it out in 1346 (that it was really his comment).

I also feel the need to remind people what my predecessor noted in post 514 with regard to a mathcam/SSK and LML pairing:

Update: Actually, looking over their posts again, the pairing actually looks quite plausible. While LoudmouthLee initially FoS'd MafiaSSK, he has declined to push MafiaSSK in the slightest. Since the initial FoS, he has only talked about MafiaSSK in the context of (i) Tigris' vote on MafiaSSK and (ii) the fact that MafiaSSK was a bandwagoned player. And the only mention MafiaSSK has made of LoudmouthLee was to question why Save the Dragons voted for LoudmouthLee.

From just a play standpoint, I thought SSK's case on CES was very weak and presented in a strong way (i.e., a large wall). He also did his definition of scumtell which I read as either trying too hard or scum, I am not sure which. Also the below could VERY likely be a slip:

As for CTD-CES, often times in games without daytalk it is beneficial for a scum to remark on their partner's posts and let them know in a discreet way if they are in support or against the direction that they are going in.

It was discussed afterwards, but how does he know that scum don't have daytalk? I think this is something that should NOT be forgotten. Because the masons don't have daytalk, I assume scum do not as well.

When mathcam entered the game, I also noted several things on him. For starters, his post 587 was reasonable and he gives a slight scum read on LML and Bookitty. In his next post, he chose the former as the more-scummy option but I didn't get that from the text of his 587.

On day two, he posted a list of reads but didn't throw down a vote. He also made a reasonable case on ABR in this post for his associations with LML. It's for this reason I don't think ABR/mathcam are scum together.

Then there is what I like to call the plus/minus debacle. Holy shit, that is the worst proof I have ever seen that someone is actually doing what he said he was doing. I was already waiting for this thinking it might put him in the town column but that list did nothing for me.

Then there was the mercy-kill debacle. That was ugly. Especially knowing DGB was town. That is NOT a pro-town sentiment AT ALL.

The only real town vibes I have gotten from SSK/mathcam was the thing I have already mentioned twice where he showed surprise at STD voting LML. And his reasoning on ABR/LML associations.

After writing this up, I would be perfectly fine with lynching mathcam today.

[Juls]

Ah crap. I forgot a couple things on mathcam....

Here and here he mentioned that if he had been there at deadline he "would have" hammered LML. I don't know why he feels the need to drive this home or why he thinks this makes him more town (even as town). Of course you are going to say you would have hammered LML. Why would you say different?

And I didn't like his assumption that DGB was town when wanting to "compare exit strategies" of DGB town. Why didn't he ask for DGB's exit strategies as scum?

And I found the other interaction that led me to think he "might" be town. STD dedicated a whole big post in descent of mathcam. I am not sure a buddy would bus another buddy so hard after one just got lynched. Although he didn't vote him either so there's that. I think just dedicating a whole post to him not just sprinkling it in with other comments made me think he might not be scum with mathcam.

Lastly (I hope), the weak association of not-scum-with Yosarian should not be there. It was actually Porochaz and on re-reading the post I noted it on, I no longer believe that.

Alright, my son is getting fussy. I will try to finish Bookitty, VIt, GC, Spyrex, and Porochaz later today. I probably won't do one on MBL and chamber because they are strong town reads for me. CDB is a weak town to null read for me based only on KK/Tigris so I may need to read more to develop that read more.

[VitaminR]

Yos, are you deliberately trying to harass me with Post 3780 or something? That post wasn't at all directed at you and didn't contain anything that should be new to you, yet you have to barge in with this spiteful post. Act like an adult.

[Patrick]

Votecount

ChannelDelibird (2) -- SpyreX, Albert B. Rampage
Yosarian2 (2) -- Juls, VitaminR
Porochaz (4) -- Green Crayons, mathcam, Sotty7, chamber
Albert B. Rampage (1) -- Porochaz
mathcam (1) -- Yosarian2
VitaminR (1) -- undo

Not voting: Bookitty, ChannelDelibird, MrBuddyLee
14 alive, 8 to lynch.

[Yosarian2]

Just out of curiousity, Yosarian, do you have any comments about my Post 3675?

I already responded to your comment about me and LML, in post 3616.

uls, from my point of view, what happened on day 1 was basically this:

-VitR started out with a vote on LML for a garbage reason

-I called him out for it as my first non-random vote (obviously not a very strong vote at the time, just a better then random one, with a little showmanship added to it to try to help me get a read on VitR)

-As the day went on, though, LML became increasingly scummy, while VitR seemed to just fade off the case, unvote him, and basically fade off into scummy nothingness

-I drove the LML wagon, with a little help from GC and from PJ but from basically no one else for most of the day. I lynched him almost singlehandedly, against the strong opposition of a number of vocal townies like DGB.

Now at the time, since I remembered attacking VitR for his attack on LML, I was thinking that they weren't scum together. But looking at it now, it really looks to me like it was probably an early-game distancing vote with no follow through at all.

Take a closer look at day 1 again, and see who it was who really lynched LML. It was me, pretty much on my own.

As for your speculation about me being scum *with* VitR; all I can say is that if you think that, you probably haven't read the whole game yet.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, are you deliberately trying to harass me with Post 3780 or something? That post wasn't at all directed at you and didn't contain anything that should be new to you, yet you have to barge in with this spiteful post. Act like an adult.

Do you really think you can bully me into ceasing my attacks you by pretending to be insulted when I accurately describe your behavior this game, VitR? There's clearly nothing in post 3780 that anyone could be offended about. Your case on me is BS, and you only have been claiming to find me scummy because you don't like the fact that I'm attacking you. You've actually admitted that, on several occasions, although you usually claimed you "didn't like the way I was attacking you" or that "I wouldn't be so certain of my scum reads" or some similar wording. The intent is the same; you've been voting me basically nonstop because you don't like the fact I've been attacking you, it's almost pure OMGUS and has been all game. None of that is "offensive", or "immature", or "spiteful"; it's my analysis of your play this game, and why I think that you're scum.

No amount of OMGUS attacks, insults, pretenses of being offended, or anything else along those lines is going to change my opinion of your alignment. If you change my mind about your alginement, either change my mind with rational arguments, or else just start playing in a more pro-town way.

[chamber]

Yos, you continuing to attack VitR isn't remotely productive. Poro is getting lynched once juls is caught up. There is no other way today is playing out. If you want to keep arguing with VitR actually bring something new to the table.

[Juls]

I can't argue against a poro lynch. Give me until Tuesday morning, if I am not completely caught up I should be enough to give my thoughts to sotty/undo in the night.

[VitaminR]

Yos, I've tried very hard with rational arguments, over and over, but all I've gotten from you is just stuff like "weak", "entirely bullshit", "absurd", "laughable", "garbage", etc. I don't even care that you think I'm scum any more. I'm done trying to persuade you that I'm not. Honestly, every time I see that you've posted in the thread, I kinda don't want to open it, because I know there's a decent chance I'll get upset by it. Even if you somehow aren't scum, I don't think that's excusable. Maybe I'm a bit sensitive, but this is a game, and you've crossed the line of what is acceptable quite a few times in my opinion. And I don't give a shit if you want to say that you don't believe that. I had good memories of playing with you, but those are entirely soured by this whole experience.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, you continuing to attack VitR isn't remotely productive.

Chamber, you sticking up for your friends who you don't even have a read on, just because you think I'm picking on them, isn't remotely productive. You've been doing it all game, and it's really not helping anything. If you think VitR is town, please say so; I am interested in what you think about him.

[Yosarian2]

Honestly, every time I see that you've posted in the thread, I kinda don't want to open it, because I know there's a decent chance I'll get upset by it.

...

You do understand that I'm allowed to call you scum if I think you're scum, right? And if you attack me with an argument that's BS, I'm clearly going to call you out on it.

None of that is offensive, or "picking on you". It's called "playing mafia".

Frankly, the incredibly hostility you've had towards me for most of this game, and the way that I can't ask you anything without you flipping out on me with page after page of nonsense attacks (while never actually bothering to answer any my question) have really made this game a pretty miserable experience for me. I attack you, you respond by attacking me and claim to think I'm scum. I take your argument apart, you even admit that your argument was wrong (like you did about your "false dichotomy" argument earlier today), but then you keep voting me anyway.

At this point, either you're scum, or if you're town you've been tunneling on me all game with nothing but OMGUS and acting in in an incredibly anti-town way, basically to the exclusion of doing much real scumhunting, and it's been just unbelievably frustrating to play with. I think you're probably scum, and I'm not going to change my mind without a reason to do so; that doesn't actually mean you have to flip out at me and lash out at me all game just because I suspect you. If you are town, it's just not helpful behavior, and all it does is keep my vote on you, and frankly force me to skim your posts rather then hear you repeat the same points over and over again that I've already refuted or that you can't possibly really believe.

[chamber]

Yos, you continuing to attack VitR isn't remotely productive.

Chamber, you sticking up for your friends who you don't even have a read on, just because you think I'm picking on them, isn't remotely productive. You've been doing it all game, and it's really not helping anything. If you think VitR is town, please say so; I am interested in what you think about him.

I would say the same to him if he was still attacking you. He's realized that you 2 arguing isn't going anywhere though.

[VitaminR]

You do understand that I'm allowed to call you scum if I think you're scum, right? And if you attack me with an argument that's BS, I'm clearly going to call you out on it.

None of that is offensive, or "picking on you". It's called "playing mafia".

I never complained about you calling me scum. I complained about words like "garbage" and "laughable" and "weak" and "absurd". I complained about you stepping in to a discussion with undo that contained nothing new using phrases like "entirely bullshit" and "even more absurd", after I'd already said that I was done discussing things with you.

Frankly, the incredibly hostility you've had towards me for most of this game, and the way that I can't ask you anything without you flipping out on me with page after page of nonsense attacks (while never actually bothering to answer any my question) have really made this game a pretty miserable experience for me. I attack you, you respond by attacking me and claim to think I'm scum. I take your argument apart, you even admit that your argument was wrong (like you did about your "false dichotomy" argument earlier today), but then you keep voting me anyway.

At this point, either you're scum, or if you're town you've been tunneling on me all game with nothing but OMGUS and acting in in an incredibly anti-town way, basically to the exclusion of doing much real scumhunting, and it's been just unbelievably frustrating to play with. I think you're probably scum, and I'm not going to change my mind without a reason to do so; that doesn't actually mean you have to flip out at me and lash out at me all game just because I suspect you. If you are town, it's just not helpful behavior, and all it does is keep my vote on you, and frankly force me to skim your posts rather then hear you repeat the same points over and over again that I've already refuted or that you can't possibly really believe.

This describes pretty well how I feel about

your

posts, as I've been trying to get across for a while.

But I honestly apologize if you feel I've made this game miserable for you. At every point, I've just said what I thought and tried to see your point of view, but I'll concede that I could have been more polite about it on several occasions.

[Juls]

Porochaz

Possibly mafia with

: ABR (see ABR notes for why)

First, I want to remind everyone of this that STD said:

(At least) one of this set { petroleumjelly, Seol, Porochaz, Green Crayons }

That immediately makes me suspicious of GC, Bookitty, and Porochaz. I doubt that there are two buddies in this list however. Especially since he followed that with "you can throw LML in there too"

Other things to note...I didn't like his hop on the DGB wagon. At this point she was at four votes and Porochaz's vote was prefaced with "meh, it's obvious but let's go with it." He did this again later with the undo wagon. When he voted he basically said there's no way DGB can't be scum but I like this wagon so I am getting on it (leaving the door to go back to DGB).

That's pretty much all I have on Poro in my notes. My biggest problem with him is he is always behind (a problem that appears to be happening now as well) and when he does come in and says anything it's several pages behind and I think he is just being ignored. All-in-all I don't get a town-vibe from him. It surprised me when I looked back and saw that HE was the one that organized this thing. You would think he would have got caught up at some point. I know he had a death in the family (my sincere condolences) but that was months ago. Why is he still not caught up in a game he organized?