Open 579: Pick Your (Chocolate) Power -- Game Over

[Green Crayons]

Hi I will read up I the next day or so.

unvote

, if necessary.

[Green Crayons]

Oh mod just asked if I wanted in since I volunteered earlier.

On phone, haven't read game, but I'm VT.

So what's droog's line tomorrow when I flip green?

[Green Crayons]

Took a break at Page 22. So I should be caught up by tomorrow.

[Green Crayons]

Finished catching up.

I'm open to questions if anyone has them. I think I have a case against a few players, but I need to reread via ISO before I put them out. I don't think I have anything that's a homerun at the moment, but we'll see what I turn up.

-----

w/r/t Math's reaction test: While I'm not oblivious to the concept of reaction testing for replacements, I haven't seen one in a while and I don't think I've ever been subjected to one. So it didn't even cross my mind that Math/droog could have been lying simply to reaction test me. For whatever that is worth.

[Green Crayons]

@Flubber:

What do you think of him saying you're town?

Well, I agree with Math's assessment that my reaction is solidly town. But I have an obvious bias in that assessment. It just so happens that it's also a bias that reflects reality.

As a matter of scum hunting, I don't think anyone should get credit for claiming X-Player is town when, later, X-Player flips town. So the fact that he is calling me town, when I know that I would flip town if killed, does not sway me one way or another on how I feel about him.

I personally don't put too much stock in reaction testing generally. And I don't think my reaction is all that probative of my alignment, because looking back there is a 40 minute gap between Math's/Droog's test posts and my response. In that time I could have skimmed the thread, saw that they were lying, deduced that they were reaction testing me, and manufactured a post that benefitted me under the theory that I'm scum. Or, alternatively - and as what actually happened - I could have checked the thread via phone while watching Netflix with my wife, saw the posts, and responded off the cuff based upon my town alignment.

But from the position of anyone that isn't me, I acknowledge that there isn't really much evidence one way or another to subscribe to either theory of my reaction post. Even without such evidence, there is a certain element of a gut reaction/predisposition towards my slot that could factor into how one responds to it. But even in light of such considerations, it's strange that Math has adopted the "it's genuine" stance so strongly. Which makes me paranoid.

[Green Crayons]

@Math:

I wasn't really wanting you to explain anything. I saw that you explained your position. I was merely divulging my thoughts on the matter.

I don't know what Ven picked. I am asking for that information. I don't really know how useful it will be. From my understanding of the mechanics of the game, it will meant that Alchemist (4), dave (6), Hayate (8), or Siv (13) got it? Well, not siv, as he's a dead VT.

[Green Crayons]

Yeah, that's fine. I have company coming over tonight for dinner. I'll get to it tomorrow.

[Green Crayons]

I don't know what Ven picked. I am asking for that information. I don't really know how useful it will be. From my understanding of the mechanics of the game, it will meant that Alchemist (4), dave (6), Hayate (8), or Siv (13) got it? Well, not siv, as he's a dead VT.

Thinking about this, as roles aren't really alignment indicative, I don't see how me divulging this information would be beneficial for anyone except scum.

[Green Crayons]

@Math:

And we dont have Ven here to explain his pick, so...

Its only useful to the extent of looking at who you cant be scum with, really.

Wait thats actually realky useful

What can scum do with it when the top 4 are already NK targets anyway?

How does it show who I can't be scum with?

Me divulging information will let scum know what yet another PR is in the Top 4. They can weigh whether they want to target higher or lower than me based off of that info. Town can . . . think it's a neat bit of information and then do nothing with it.

[Green Crayons]

What are we having for dinner!

Baked chicken with a side of Brussels sprouts and bacon. And lots of tasty, tasty wine.

[Green Crayons]

Okay here's a run down of reads, per request.

I don't think these things are actually useful to the thread at large, as it appears to me that people usually just look for their own name and then respond, while ignoring the rest, so y'all will get a mostly one-liner situation based off my memory of how I felt about everyone's play.

wgeurts

: scummy posting early on, then it became more leanish town near the end of D1, then null.

Flubbernugget

: town posting throughout, though mostly unhelpful

droog

: I want to say town posting, but paranoia is getting to the better of me; lean town for now.

Alchemist21

: scum candidate, more on that later.

Ankamius

: scum candidate, more on that later.

VictorDeAngelo

: I thought Amy's posts read pretty town; I think Victor's replaced-in posting style is scummy, but the fact that he's running with it while people have stated how much they dislike it reads town, as it looks like Victor isn't actually looking at up-to-date posting while reading through for the first time. Not saying that

only

scum

would

look at up-to-date posting while reading through (for various reasons, including the fact that I kept an eye on what was going on in new posts while reading through, and I know that I am town), but that scum

would not

(likely) just ignore the present-day game while reading through, and scum would probably like to readjust their style to stop doing something several players have said that they really hate.

Aneninen

: I thought his posting was lean town until his soft claim, which I thought was scummy, but that's the only problem I've seen with his play.

Formerfish

: likely town based off of his play (his slot's prior occupant was lurker suspicious, but not all infrequent posters to the point of being replaced are scum), but his frequent cursing raises my hackles - not because cursing is bad (fuck that shit), but because I don't recall him cursing as much in the one previous game I played with him + I played with someone who had a perfectly adequate but not infallible theory that excessive cursing was indicative of possible scum alignment as it was a forced attempt to look more emotionally invested in whatever = paranoia.

TheAdrienC

: lean town; potential for lurker scum, but I'm just not feeling it.

Mathdino

: when I read his posts, I think town; when I read criticisms of him, I think scummy. Don't know what to do with him.

farside22

: null, leaning town; her play - though still very much farside - feels different from her scum game in an Open Game that we just wrapped up, but nothing so far leaps out to me one way or another.

Green Crayons

: lol I replaced a 15 year old; hoooooly shit I remember that age. It sucked.

[Green Crayons]

My suspicions on the Hayate/Ank slot.

(1) Hayate's Manufactured Suspicions.

I didn't care for Hayate's jumping on other players' early game play not looking like late game play. It looks like Hayate took well-tested suspicions (e.g., "these players aren't providing substantive content!") and applied it regardless of context (e.g., that it was early game), which looks like manufacturing suspicions rather than having suspicions develop organically to the actual context of the gamestate.

(a)

Post 38: discredits Aneninen for not reading the thread before voting, because the almighty scared RVS "could very well be over by the time" Aneninen posted. On page 2.

(b)

Post 42: challenges wgeurts' flippant page 2 vote by asking if wgeurts has any reads. Once again, on Page 2.

(c)

Post 49: discredits droog's posting, in part based upon droog having "the second-most posts out of anybody in the game". (Also solidifies her wgeurts criticism from Post 42 on the basis that wgeurts failed to contribute to the ~*~ vitally important ~*~ theory discussion.) All of this on Page 2. 48 posts is not a large enough sample size for Hayate's observation that droog is in whatever standing of most frequent poster to have any sort of value, but ignoring the lack of foundation and paying attention to the surface accusation, Hayate's suspicions are objectively reasonable.

(2) Hayate's Excessive Setup Conversation.

Everything else from Hayate's presence in this game is pure game setup speculation. This in and of itself isn't alignment indicative, as I believe it natural for any player involved in this game to talk about setup spec. However, the fact that this is Hayate's

only

contribution to the game outside of what looks like artifical suspicions (noted above), looks like a potential for scum trying to be active.

(3) Ank's Reads Don't Appear Naturally Developed.

In Post 296, Ank posts her gut reads. This read list is, in and of itself, null. However, I have problems with some of her explanations of her reads.

(a)

I don't care for her Ven town read in Post 297. It's based off of only one thing - Ven townreading Amy - which Ank herself has done in this very post. It's Ank basically saying that she herself should be townread for this one single action that both she and Ven have simultaneously done.

The flimsy quality of the read (and remember, Ank put Ven in the "town" category and not "null") is underscored by the fact that Ank labels Ven scum a short time later in Post 363 and Post 366, calling Ven's Post 361 fluff when it was actually one of Ven's better, substantive posts (making a meta argument against Siv). Even here, the problem is not that Ank switched her opinion on Ven. It's that the two stances don't really match up. How does Ven's one "fluff" post weigh against Ank's earlier declaration that Ven's Amy townread made his solidly town? Who knows. Her criticism of Ven's post - calling it fluff when it actually, for once, wasn't; using it as the only basis to call Ven scum - is also consistent with (but not necessarily indicative of) scum preemptively laying groundwork for suspecting a player (Ven) who voted to lynch another player who flipped town (Siv).

(b)

I don't think her explanation of why Romitelli is scum in Post 297 ("does a good job at trying to appear like he's doing something while not doing anything") is a really mushy suspicion that favors scum in lodging it, and I don't think it actually applies to Rom's play in any meaningful way. Her Post 488 reiteration of these suspicions is basically the same thing.

(c)

Ank's explanation for reading Alchemist as town in Post 448 is lolworthy. A onetime experience with another player is useful, but it doesn't, standing alone, justify putting someone in the town box. Without actually providing in-game justifications for her read (e.g., HOW does his play this game look like a town mindset in contrast to this previous game of theirs?), it looks like she's reaching for a reason to put a player in the town box. I also don't like her needlessly defensive reaction to dave calling her out on this in Post 533, as it looks like scum trying to avoid having to delve into justifying a town read, when they are just wanting to get credit for having successfully called another player as town. (Town would want to explain their town read, so as to convince other town not to suspect a player that is likely town.)

(d)

I don't think there's anything wrong with Ank's suspicions of Siv in Post 297. However, that's all she has to say about Siv. Thus, when she states in Post 488 "My ISO really shouldn't leave any room for doubt as to why I'm scumreading him," it strikes me as weird. In 297, the only concrete suspicion that Ank said about Siv is that he tried to discredit math. The remainder of her suspicions was that "Nothing about his ISO really gives me any good iggly wigglies either" This leaves plenty of doubt as to why Ank is scumreading Siv, because it's bascially a nebulous "not good" accusation. Ank misrepresenting her own suspicions as being stronger and clearer than what they actually are is scummy.

(4) This Bad Justification For Refusing to Be Active and Engaged.

"I've found that it's easier for me to get better reads from being engaged upon than engaging people myself, especially when I'm behind." Post 783. This is attempting to justify scummy behavior (failing to engage and be proactive) by giving it a town-benefitted spin. It's BS.

[Green Crayons]

My suspicions on Alchemist.

(1) Saying Things That Alchemist Thinks Town Would Say.

droog criticized math's posts for looking like things a scum would say in order to look town (Post 99, Post 101). I actually think that criticism applies more accurately to Alchemist's suspicions on other players.

(a)

Flubber Vote and Explanations in Post 272: "This guy has been unproductive for town, and the, "I suck at mafia right now," excuse doesn't cut it for me."

- THEORY: posted with the thought that, surely, town should suspect unproductive players!
- PROBLEM: unclear why Flubber gets the vote when Rom and Siv were about as active/helpful as Flubber at this point in the game. Possibly because Flubber already had suspicion on him?

(b)

Siv Vote and Explanations in Post 278, Post 282, Post 284, and Post 300:

"It's because he's excusing another player's lack of scumhunting. Amy's lack of scumhunting could be unintentional and because of noobiness, but that doesn't excuse it and for another player to suggest it's OK to not scumhunt is scummy IMO."

AND

"It's not something I want to just completely dismiss because it seems to obvious. If we give him a pass for it, then even if he's town it gives the scum a pass for it too. This is something we need to push."

AND

"There's a difference between trying to scumhunt and doing it wrong and then intentionally not scumhunting. You made it sound like you think it's never scummy to not scumhunt regardless of which one it is."

- THEORY: posted with the thought that, surely, town wouldn't excuse a lack of actively hunting scum!
- PROBLEM: Alchemist twists Siv's statement to better fit his argument that Siv is saying that town shouldn't scum hunt. (This becomes particularly apparent by Post 310, when Alchemist has finally boiled down his point to the argument that Siv is saying that "it's ok for other players to not scumhunt.") What Siv actually said in Post 249 was that he questioned why Amy's lack of scumhunting in particular was worth holding against her - not that town should never, ever scum hunt (which, of course, is an incredibly stupid position to take and was not a position Siv was taking). There is a huge gap in Siv asking what in particular is bad about Amy not scumhunting, and "Advocating a lack of scumhunting" (Post 501).

(c)

Adrien Vote and Explanations in Post 744.

- THEORY: naked votes gotta be scummy, right?
- PROBLEM: naked vote at the end of the game day isn't as alignment indicative as Alchemist suggests, as explained by farside in Post 746 and FF in Post 793.

(2) Bad Reaction to Alchemist Votes.

Alchemist's response to votes on him at the end of Day One really strike me as scrambling scum. It's hard for me to put it into words beyond "this just really feels like a scum response to pressure," but I'll try to do my best:

(a)

End of D1 Response to FF's Alchemist-Suspicions in Post 705: attempts to discredit FF's refusal to vote Siv because FF believes Ven is scum on the theory that Ven might be bussing Siv. This is just a convoluted argument that requires FF to ignore what he thinks about Siv, and to accept the theory that Ven-scum will bus because ___ (Alchemist doesn't actually explain why that might be the case, he just wants FF to buy into the theory). The logical summersaults it takes to adopt Alchemist's position looks like scum flailing.

(b)

End of D1 Response to Math's Alchemist-Suspicions in Post 708 and Post 710: Alchemist is basically makes the argument that even if he's scum, the fact that he doesn't look like he's getting lynched means that Math should plant his vote elsewhere. Which would, of course, further deflate the Alchemist wagon and any ability for Alchemist to be lynched. (In fact, if my count is correct, Alchemist was actually the leading wagon per the VC in Post 704 and Siv's vote switch in Post 706.)

[Green Crayons]

Alright, going into the Alchemist reread, I thought I was going to have more to say about him. I actually did have a few more points that I initially typed up, but I deleted them because at the end of the day they were small things that just struck me funny, but which I don't think are particularly persuasive, or I don't really have the time/energy to fully explore them and double check that the basis for the suspicions were warranted.

VOTE: Ank, because I found it must easier to put my suspicions of that slot into writing. Not that I think my Alchemist suspicions aren't valid, and that I won't pursue them, but between Ank and Alchemist, I'll trust my gut.

[Green Crayons]

@droog:

crayons, what do you think of aninen and dino?

Aneninen

: I thought his posting was lean town until his soft claim, which I thought was scummy, but that's the only problem I've seen with his play.

I thought his posting looked town throughout D1. I think his soft claim is more likely to come from scum, as I think scum are more likely to think roles can help convice town of their alignment. That's the only problem I've had with his play.

Mathdino

: when I read his posts, I think town; when I read criticisms of him, I think scummy. Don't know what to do with him.

His posts read town, but when people point out problems with his posts, I end up doubting my town read.

[Green Crayons]

I don't see a reason to lynch Anen.

I'm apathetic towards Math, and so I don't think his lynch would be objectively bad for the town even if he were to flip town, but would rather lynch someone else.

You two should vote Ank, so there is sufficient pressure for the slot's replacement to claim upon replacing in.

[Green Crayons]

Also I am skeptical of a lack of deadline extension if the replacement arrives within 48 hours.

[Green Crayons]

48 hours of the deadline*

[Green Crayons]

How do you want me to expand on them?

[Green Crayons]

Let me give it a shot.

wgeurts

: scummy posting early on, then it became more leanish town near the end of D1, then null.

I'm not going to ISO wgeurts just to point out the hard limits on these sections (early D1, late D1, early D2). Because effort, and I don't see the utility of doing it. I don't even know if there are hard limits. I'm just going off of memory.

Flubbernugget: town posting throughout, though mostly unhelpful

His posts look like another game where he was town. In that other game, I was assured that this is just how he plays. Not really engaged until something grabs his attention, and then he just sort of flickers out. His play here is in accordance with that. His play here also doesn't strike me as scummy in tone/content, either. At most - and this is really stretching it - I guess you could go the "lazy scum" route, but that just doesn't really fit his play in my opinion.

VictorDeAngelo

: I thought Amy's posts read pretty town; I think Victor's replaced-in posting style is scummy, but the fact that he's running with it while people have stated how much they dislike it reads town, as it looks like Victor isn't actually looking at up-to-date posting while reading through for the first time. Not saying that

only

scum

would

look at up-to-date posting while reading through (for various reasons, including the fact that I kept an eye on what was going on in new posts while reading through, and I know that I am town), but that scum

would not

(likely) just ignore the present-day game while reading through, and scum would probably like to readjust their style to stop doing something several players have said that they really hate.

Amy's posts read town to me. She said things. Other people gave her grief for it. She responded. Then she and Anen got into a stupid back and forth that I skimmed over. Nothing exciting.

[Green Crayons]

On Victor:
His predecessor's posts really do hit a lot of alarms for me. Other than Amy though, what do you make of Victor's questioning style and his clear attempts to ask questions to generate suspicion? Or do you think it's just confbias?

VictorDeAngelo

: I thought Amy's posts read pretty town;

I think Victor's replaced-in posting style is scummy, but the fact that he's running with it while people have stated how much they dislike it reads town, as it looks like Victor isn't actually looking at up-to-date posting while reading through for the first time. Not saying that

only

scum

would

look at up-to-date posting while reading through (for various reasons, including the fact that I kept an eye on what was going on in new posts while reading through, and I know that I am town), but that scum

would not

(likely) just ignore the present-day game while reading through, and scum would probably like to readjust their style to stop doing something several players have said that they really hate.

The bolded already answers your question.

Do you think wgeurts is bussing Ankamius?

I don't know. I hate these kinds of questions before there is a flip. If Ank flips scum, I will look into who did and didn't vote for her to look for partners.

[Green Crayons]

@Victor:

have you replaced into a game before. Is this how you always replace in?

How do you feel about the fact that

nobody

has approved of your catchup style?

I'm certainly not reading your wall posts about past posts that I don't even know if you think are important, you just feel like emoting about. I await a substantive pos at the end I your read through tha tells me who you suspect, and why.

[Green Crayons]

@farside:

If wgeurts votes Ank we have L-3.

farside

, forgive me if this is due to never actually reading your ISO, but what caused the flip-flop on Ankamius between today and yesterday?

He's there in the background. I feel a bit paranoid because GC scum read the spot and town read amy.
In our last game I felt amy was more on the ball in the beginning and she explained things well. This game not so much and I took her as busy as a possible reason to call her null. I didn't really think she did much with the wagon on her. So when I feel myself disagree with a read from a player who was in the same game as me I wonder about the connection there and it has me step back a bit.

Let me give it a shot.

wgeurts

: scummy posting early on, then it became more leanish town near the end of D1, then null.

I'm not going to ISO wgeurts just to point out the hard limits on these sections (early D1, late D1, early D2). Because effort, and I don't see the utility of doing it. I don't even know if there are hard limits. I'm just going off of memory.

Flubbernugget: town posting throughout, though mostly unhelpful

His posts look like another game where he was town. In that other game, I was assured that this is just how he plays. Not really engaged until something grabs his attention, and then he just sort of flickers out. His play here is in accordance with that. His play here also doesn't strike me as scummy in tone/content, either. At most - and this is really stretching it - I guess you could go the "lazy scum" route, but that just doesn't really fit his play in my opinion.

VictorDeAngelo

: I thought Amy's posts read pretty town; I think Victor's replaced-in posting style is scummy, but the fact that he's running with it while people have stated how much they dislike it reads town, as it looks like Victor isn't actually looking at up-to-date posting while reading through for the first time. Not saying that

only

scum

would

look at up-to-date posting while reading through (for various reasons, including the fact that I kept an eye on what was going on in new posts while reading through, and I know that I am town), but that scum

would not

(likely) just ignore the present-day game while reading through, and scum would probably like to readjust their style to stop doing something several players have said that they really hate.

Amy's posts read town to me. She said things. Other people gave her grief for it. She responded. Then she and Anen got into a stupid back and forth that I skimmed over. Nothing exciting.

VOTE: Ankimus
Lets lynch the poor replacement.

@Victor:

have you replaced into a game before. Is this how you always replace in?

How do you feel about the fact that

nobody

has approved of your catchup style?

I'm certainly not reading your wall posts about past posts that I don't even know if you think are important, you just feel like emoting about. I await a substantive pos at the end I your read through tha tells me who you suspect, and why.

I get Flubber, but not really anything about gerts.
Also victor replaced in a game I was in and he was scum that game. Guess where I stand.

Vote: victor

Could you explain more about your Amy reaction?

I didn't think to directly compare her posts to our previous game. I did think that Amy wasn't partucularly helpful this game, but last game she basically became similar despite a strong start.

[Green Crayons]

@Victor:

(1)

OK, I'm pretty much behind lynching the Venrob slot, the Ank slot or the AdrienC slot (oh wait, AdrienC is still in it). I feel best about finding scum in Ankimus right now:

VOTE: Ollie

Justify this vote that doesn't have you pointing to one of your reaction read through posts.

(2)

@Victor:

have you replaced into a game before. Is this how you always replace in?

How do you feel about the fact that

nobody

has approved of your catchup style?

I'm certainly not reading your wall posts about past posts that I don't even know if you think are important, you just feel like emoting about. I await a substantive post at the end I your read through tha tells me who you suspect, and why.

Respond to this post.

[Green Crayons]

@farside:

Alright, so I went and reread Amy's ISO. Still not seeing what's particularly scummy about it.

Spoiler: GC Reaction to Amy's Posts

(1) She starts off by contributing to the conversation (which is discussing theory) by discussing theory, and instantly has to defend her comment that is basically an observation that Math's play is consistent with, but not indicative of, scum. Post 40, Post 47, Post 48, Post 65, Post 70, Post 72.

GC Reaction:

Amy's comment that got Math all in a Tizzy is null. "X-action is consistent with scum play" isn't an alignment indicative thing to say, certainly not as part of a player's first post in the game at Post 40. The remainder of Amy's defensive posts reads like a player defending a weak line of attack. The posts read more town than scum.


(2) Venrob-suspicion series of posts in Post 67, Post 71, Post 74.

GC Reaction:

I used to solidly believe that self-meta was alignment indicative, but I've encountered enough town doing it that I don't think the action itself is probative of alignment - but that doesn't mean Amy's pushing of what I think is a non-suspicion makes her scummy (particularly since I've pushed that suspicion in the past, and don't any more based off of experience with it not serving me well).

The weird thing here is Amy's conditioning of her suspicion on whether someone asked Ven for his self-meta, then droog saying that nobody did, and then Amy then saying that the self-meta is therefore scummy. farside (I think) had inquired into Ven's meta, and so Ven was responding to her. How Amy and droog both missed that, and why Amy would have thought to even condition her suspicion upon Ven not being prompted to self-meta if she had not actually caught farside's prompt, is certainly weird. I don't know if it's scummy, but I'm willing to say that it's suspicious.


(3) Some responses to general questions, including reads. Post 143, Post 144, Post 198.

GC Reaction:

null.


(4) Defense of self. Post 201.

GC Reaction:

reads like frustrated town.


(5) droog suspicion and daytalk conversation. Post 202, Post 207, Post 208, Post 211.

GC Reaction:

lean town. I don't read the full OP or Wiki page. I didn't know scum had daytalk in this setup, so I get where Amy's coming from, even if I ultimately disagree with it.


(6) Venrob read update. Post 219, Post 405.

GC Reaction:

null.


(7) Reads list, reaction to same. Post 206, Post 213, Post 240.

GC Reaction:

the most suspicious thing about the reads list is that it doesn't say much. She picks three people who recently posted (whatever), and opines about how they have done some suspicious stuff, but also some town stuff, and therefore they come out the wash as not vote-worthy.

I don't think her analysis is off or looks manufactured. Thus, between viewing Amy's reads as either "scum-motivated busy work" and "town not really hooked into the game," it looks more like the latter than the former to me.

This conclusion is buttressed by posts like Post 507, which looks much more like town disconnected from the game than unmotivated scum.


(7) Aneninen fight. Post 239, Post 287, Post 338, Post 434, Post 439.

GC Reaction:

null. I skimmed most of this the first time around, and I did so again now. Particularly not motivated to try to line up their points to one another and really digest the arguments when, at the end of the day, they both stepped back from their hardline "the other player is scum" positions.


(8) Late contributions. Post 507, Post 508, Post 762.

GC Reaction:

507 and 508 look fine from an alignment stand point. Post 762 is interesting, because Amy is back to suspecting Math after seemingly agreeing that he ultimately looked town. But this is her reaction to the Siv lynch, and so the change in and of itself isn't suspicious. I don't know if she does a good job at identifying why Math gets the vote over any other Siv voter, and so this is lean scum material.

TL;DR: Amy's posts mostly look town. There are a few blips of "well that's weird" in her play that I concede is suspicious, but I think these isolated incidents are outweighed by Amy's otherwise town play.

I also don't see how our last Open Mini we played with her makes you think she's scum. In that game, she started off pretty insightful and active, but as the game went on, Amy became less connected and more distant. In this game, she looks disconnected almost from the very start. Amy becoming distant (last game) versus being distant from the start (this game) isn't a persuasive meta-based suspicion for me, and I don't see why it is for you.

[Green Crayons]

PEdit: Green Canyons

Fuck Canyons.

These are Crayons.

[Green Crayons]

2) Yep, replaced into a few games on this site and that's how I catch up. I don't do it just for other people necessarily, I do it for me, as I need some way of working out what's happened this game and people seem to not bother helping out replacements from what I've learnt. I don't see any reason to change what works for me just cause other people don't like it. There are links, and names so it's quicker for other's to follow my thoughts if they want, but I've played enough to know some players will simply see a wall and ignore it completely. But heck, so many people have complained in the past about me not being transparent enough with my thoughts, so doing something like this at least stops those sort of shitty arguments.

I did a quick search of your past 10ish games and I saw two where you replaced in, and had a similar posting style.

So yay, you didn't lie to me.

I think you should stop doing this as a replaced-in posting style, especially for longer games that you replace into. By all means, take notes. But then only use those notes when justifying your conclusory reads. As it is, your method allows you to make a whole bunch of reactionary posts to points that might not (and probably aren't) relevant to the contemporary game state. It looks like you're making yourself look busy without providing content that is useful to the town - and in fact you're doing the opposite, because nobody in their right mind is going to wade through your reactions, and those that aren't in their right mind and do so (Math) are going down a rabbit hole that most of us don't want to read.

So, I think your replaced in style is alignment indicative, and the fact that you are constantly using it is anti-town. This doesn't help us with this game, but my two cents for the future.

[Green Crayons]

How is it survivalistic?

He's setting himself up to be the lynch if Victor flips town.

I mean I guess it could be a way of delaying his lynch.

I don't see Ollie actually committing to "if Victor is town, I'm happy to be lynched."

He just recognized the two most popular bandwagons (himself and Victor), and is focusing on those two as the only two viable lynches for today.

[Green Crayons]

@farside:

GC: I thought more of amy as how she started then her mid game.

She analysised players and thought thinks out loud for each person. I didn't see that here.

I did know because of mid game she was busy but I also remember her break down when people voted her and I didn't see it here. I don't see why she would have changed her attitude based on how strongly she felt during that time.

I think that is fair, and accurate.

After reading your comment but before reading through Amy's ISO, I was trying to think why she would be disconnected from the game. One plausible explanation was that Amy is scum who has a hard time figuring out how to interact with the thread in a natural, "town" way. Like I think it would be the actual explanation for Amy's play if Amy was in fact scum.

After reading through Amy's ISO, though, I'm not sold on it being the motivation for Amy's play.

[Green Crayons]

I actually didn't look at the substance of his previous game, just for the style of doing a bunch of hyperlinked posts and reactions to them. The two games I saw where he had replaced in, he only had one such post as opposed to a multitude, but the games themselves weren't as long as ours at the point he replaced in.

Style is important because if you make it look like you're active, but in a manner the discourages people from actually reading your posts, then you're hit the sweet spot as scum.

Even when people do read the posts (e.g., as Math did with Victor's posts), it spirals down into a back and forth about details and it's difficult to get into as an observer.


As a not completely unrelated aside, I will actually look into the Math/Victor debate shortly.

[Green Crayons]

I don't see too terribly much light between our positions, then? Other than the fact that you ultimately nullread Amy and I ultimately townread her (but we agree upon the two most likely explanations for her play)?

I'm confused about our conversation.

[Green Crayons]

Ah. Okay.

[Green Crayons]

Let's not be coy, folks.

Name names of people you are waiting to hear from.

[Green Crayons]

Victor still hasn't questioned me about anything once. Not even once. If I had a scum read on someone & they were replaced, the first thing I would do is be all over their replacement. I'd want to see if it was a case of the previous incumbent of the slot just happening to fulfill my own personal idea of what scum look like. He voted for my slot AFTER I parachuted into the game remember. It's like he already knows I'm town. What are you doing Victor?

Has anyone who is voting you questioned you - even once - personally? Why focus on Victor?

There are outstanding observations about your slot, made by a least two players off the top of my head, that are critical of your slot's play. What is it about Victor that he must direct your attention to these problems in order for you to address them?

[Green Crayons]

Hey Victor what's wrong with Mathdino trying to inject a bit of urgency? Do you want a no lynch?

Wgeurts is a non-native English speaker (nor do I), that mistake is very common amongst ESL people. And not an alignment-tell at all.

Hahah I know it's not a scum tell. It's common amongst everyone which is why it bugs me so I point it out wherever I see it as I know it's not just a typo. It's actually very common in England lol.

Victor still hasn't questioned me about anything once. Not even once. If I had a scum read on someone & they were replaced, the first thing I would do is be all over their replacement. I'd want to see if it was a case of the previous incumbent of the slot just happening to fulfill my own personal idea of what scum look like. He voted for my slot AFTER I parachuted into the game remember. It's like he already knows I'm town. What are you doing Victor?

Has anyone who is voting you questioned you - even once - personally? Why focus on Victor?

There are outstanding observations about your slot, made by a least two players off the top of my head, that are critical of your slot's play. What is it about Victor that he must direct your attention to these problems in order for you to address them?

I just explained that in my previous post. He voted for me without seeing if those 'outstanding' observations' were as a result of the other guys shitty town play or not & jumped on the biggest wagon that happened to have a new guy in the slot! & to add to that now his answer is that he thought asking me anything would be pointless.

Phone postin so I'm responding to your last paragraph.

Victor has stated why he suspects you. You have this weird argument that his read is somehow flawed because he has not directly addressed you.

But I don't think any of your voters have directly addressed you.

You also seem to imply that if only Victor talked to you, you could smooth over problems with your slot. But you're not willing to take such proactive steps yourself, with respect to any I your voters?

It looks like you're artificially narrowing your problems to Victor, and then faulting him instead of making yourself look better - a "he's scummier than me" tactic.

[Green Crayons]

I also want to note that I've backed away from my Alchemist suspicions in light of his more recent posting.

[Green Crayons]

3 suspicions, chooses the one with the biggest wagon. I was clear vote leader at the time. I don't wanna read any more posts that Victor is just like everyone else GC, you're welcome to your opinion but it's not a fact. He's standing out as scummy to me.

1. Voting the second biggest BW when you are the biggest BW is not alignment indicative. I can think of reasons why both scum and town would do that. The mere fact that Victor already has votes on him when he voted you, whereas other players who voted you did not, does not somehow justify your focus on criticizing Victor of play that all your voters have done (having failed to engage you, the replacer, on a one-on-one basis based on preexisting suspicions of your slot). It also does not justify you ignoring the suspicions about your slot by making it about Victor rather than yourself.


2. Also, nice hypocrisy: you did your weird "1 v. 1" and Victor vote in Post 1182

immediately after

the Post 1181 vote count that listed your and Victor's BW tied at 4 votes each. You had just previously machine gunned your suspicions of Victor (Post 1172), wgeurts (Post 1173) and farside (Post 1177, Post 1178), and then chose to vote Victor. In your words: you had "3 suspicions, <and> choose<d> the one with the biggest wagon."


3. You're once again making this all about Victor, when it's not about Victor. It's about you

making it

about Victor so you can build up Victor suspicions and avoid addressing suspicions of your slot.

Here is Victor supporting his Ollie-vote:

1) Why can't I use the stuff I already said? Anyway it's a vote based on Ank's play, I constantly saw her fall into the background and subtely pushing without anything that looked like real attempts at scumhunting. She's not my only scumread but she's the one I think we're best lynching toDay and no one seems interested in lynching anyone that isn't her or me anyway.

You completely ignore this. Instead, you're complaining that he hasn't engaged you in a one-on-one basis. Despite the fact that (and here's a bit of legit criticism of Victor's Ollie-vote) Victor's suspicions look a lot like mine (Post 1104) and wgeurts (Post 1170). So even if you are correct that someone with Victor's suspicions of your slot should engage you on a one-on-one basis, you have artificially narrowed it to Victor only while ignoring my and wguerts' similar play with similar suspicions.

[Green Crayons]

It's really difficult to pin down all the bad points behind your Victor push because you're being slippery as hell, Ollie.

1. Victor is suspicious because he voted you when you were the largest BW. Post 1172.

2. Victor is vote worthy because you two have tied BW. Post 1181 (VC), Post 1182 (your vote/justification).

This in and of itself undercuts your first basis to suspect Victor.

3. Victor is scummy because he hasn't directly addressed you with his questions arising from his suspicions. Post 1237.

4. No, it's not so much that he didn't directly address you, but it goes back to the fact that he voted you because you had a large number of votes. Post 1254.

5. No, no wait. It's both! Now it's that Victor didn't directly address you about his suspicions, and that makes HIM suspicious and not any of your other voters suspicious who also engaged in the same inactivity because of this unrelated, non-alignment indicative thing: that he voted you because you had a large number of votes. Post 1270.

[Green Crayons]

Claims don't matter unless there is a result.

And even then it doesn't matter much.

Jezze Ollie is scummy as hell with this last post.

[Green Crayons]

VOTE: vic

bitch my quickhammer

Just because claims don't matter unless there is a result, and even then it doesn't matter much, we still want to know if and what the potential result is.

Which we can only get from the lynchee.

Which can't be divulged after he's lynched.

[Green Crayons]

Well flubber and adrien are both looking bad.

I don't see what you're seeing about adrien.

Flubber looks like he's playing sloppy. So it's actually the opposite of what I think you're thinking.

Flubber looks more scummy if Victor flips scum; theory being that Flubber's sloppy play is him trying to come up with a reason to be on his buddy's wagon before today is over.

Flubber looks less scummy if Victor flips town; theory being that Flubber-scum would be much more mindful to not look and play sloppy, especially as a hammer on a town (which typically gets even greater scrutiny than other votes).

[Green Crayons]

lol you're desperately trying to find inconsistencies to justify your vote.

Hey that's a nice, slimy misrepresentation.

I'm trying to explain why

your

play is not sitting right with me, and why I'm finding it difficult to vocalize in what way your play does not look like town.

I'm voting you because of problems that I have with your slot. Which I have brought to your attention several times. Which you refuse to address. Even though you've whined about Victor not directly addressing you with his suspicions of your slot, because ~*~ only then ~*~ can you magically confront such suspicions.

Ah I can see why you & wguerts have been taken in by a guy parroting your posts. & now he's following your votes as well!

Hey this is something that's not actually happening, but what a great way to discredit two of your voters by saying that they have been duped! Even though wguerts and I vocalized suspicion of your slot before Victor. Even though there's nothing we have said that actually suggests that we have been "taken in" by Victor.

[Green Crayons]

VOTE: Ollie

Burn it with fire.

[Green Crayons]

Tracker.

[Green Crayons]

Ollie's Post 1313 successfully:

1. Completely disowns his prominent role in making yesterday's lynch Victor, and shifts that blame elsewhere.

2. Makes up a weird story about protecting me last night that makes no sense.

3. Is just throwing whatever he can against his voters, hoping that something sticks to derail the votes.

4. Is doing this psychological guilt trip on his voters for having forced his hand to out his role (which in itself is suspicious in timing, as he was only at 4/7 votes when he claimed), when scum would have already figured out his role from process of elimination. Needless emotional attack.

I see no reason to change my vote. His slot's prior play was scummy. His play is scummy.

[Green Crayons]

@Anen:

I haven't received fruit nor have I been neighborized.

[Green Crayons]

No we aren't.

[Green Crayons]

10 alive today.
1 lynched.
1 night kill.
8 alive tomorrow, 3 are scum.

[Green Crayons]

(Assuming we don't hit scum today.)

[Green Crayons]

(shrug)

Maybe scum actually chose "doctor" instead of "roleblocker" in order to look more town, upon inspection of rolecop.

[Green Crayons]

But, we have plenty of time. We should get reads on the other players too, as usual. In addition: who's town and who's scum if Ollie flips scum? And what if he flips town?

This type of pre-flip speculation really lacks value.

Trying to manufacture conversation isn't good for the town. It gets us talking in circles about hypotheticals that may never actually come to fruition, and wears the town down.

Lynch Ollie. He's most likely scum. We'll get a lot of information from his scum flip, and we can have plenty of good stuff to work off of tomorrow.

[Green Crayons]

Review droog, reads a little quiet for me

This bothers me.

Just got out of a game with droog-town. He was active throughout the game, until LYLO. During LYLO, he started to get real quiet because he was the confirmed town that had to choose between the last remaining town/scum. So he has stumped.

Theory: droog getting quiet = droog getting stumped.

I see no reason why droog should be stumped by this game at this point, based on what is going on in the thread. This leads me to believe that perhaps there is something outside of the thread that is stumping droog. Like how to play in accordance with his alignment.

[Green Crayons]

I dont like the stance GCs taking on this at all. Anen is right, we need plans for tomorrow.

What does this even mean. "Plans for tomorrow."

We play the game, and then tomorrow, we play the game.

[Green Crayons]

But, we have plenty of time. We should get reads on the other players too, as usual. In addition: who's town and who's scum if Ollie flips scum? And what if he flips town?

Mathdino, you really want everyone to always say how they think is scum/town before any player is lynched based on the lynchee being both town and scum?

That is about the worst busywork I could imagine to kill town motivation.

[Green Crayons]

Or perhaps "best" busywork if you goal is to kill town motivation.

[Green Crayons]

That's... what tomorrow is for?

[Green Crayons]

I am stumped by this game
No scum flips concerns me

Also Christmas

What in particular is stumping you?

[Green Crayons]

lol

Ollie playing the "disappointed dad" scum card:

"townies on my wagon should all reconsider your entire scum hunting ethos"
"& I think on a site dedicated to mafia we should be holding players to higher standards than that"

(Not saying that Ollie doesn't have a point about the badness of Flubber hammering before a claim, but holy crap that tone is so scummy.)

[Green Crayons]

I look forward to playing with Golden Mole.

[Green Crayons]

@Anen:

GreenCrayons, 1342: that wouldn't make much sense. Having a Doc is not too useful for the scums and a scum can pretend being one very easily. Also, I don't think your 1354 would be a good idea. Also, you tried to change the subject two posts later. Advocating that talkng about or reads is a bad thing in the forthcoming posts.
Everyone, why are you townreading him at all?

1. You can't fake being a doctor when a rolecop investigates you and sees that you're a roleblocker.


2. Talking about reads is fine. Do you have reads? Go for it, spill the beans. Everyone should pipe up and say whatever they want about their reads of other players. I fully support, and have supported, people airing out their suspicions of players. Don't misrepresent me, thanks.

What I said was a bad idea is not sharing one's reads, but artificially holding up today so that we can have everyone opine about who they read to be scum and town based off of Ollie being scum, and based off of Ollie being town. It is a very bad idea. It has no value. That kind of discussion is valuable

when there is an actual flip

. You know: tomorrow. And it will be based off of what Ollie flipped as.

In fact, that kind of artificial extension of the day is detrimental to the town, because it drags the game out and wears everyone down.


3. I don't see how I've changed the subject, but by all means, I'm happy to go on about how horrible an idea it is to delay a lynch just so everyone can opine about a hypothetical, when the very next game day we can instead scumhunt based on the actual game.

[Green Crayons]

You have done nothing between yesterday (when it was okay for me to scumread you) and today (when it is not okay for me to scumread you) that should suddenly change my mind about your alignment.

In fact, your play is scummier today than yesterday.

[Green Crayons]

Who the fuck is Golden Mole?

I am, I'm pretty sure.

I think it has something to do with moles and how they like to tunnel? (I don't know much about moles, but I'm pretty sure they're burrowers.)

It's a pretty good rhetorical flourish he's using. Once you make the connection.

[Green Crayons]

He's already claimed, so you won't get any grief from me for voting him.

Though your asking for permission is weird.

[Green Crayons]

I don't have much to add, but if there is a N3 Vig and (s)he cares about my input, I would say shoot among one of the players with the least amount of substantive input, and pick the one you find most suspicious, hoping to nail lurker scum.

My list would be: wgeurts, Flubber, and Adrien.

[Green Crayons]

Math

didn't

dayvig anyone. His post where he was "voting" for the target (Ollie) that the possibly nonexistent N3 vig should shoot looked like a dayvig input.

Math's question is whether Ollie's reaction to Math's N3 target vote - believing it to actually be a dayvig command - is enough to clear him of suspicion.

[Green Crayons]

My response is that scum don't win by partially committing to a strategy. If Ollie is scum, his strategy under BW pressure has been disappointment and guilt tripping. His response to Math's "day kill" is in line with that, and could also be just scum messing with town by approving of a town post. Or maybe Ollie understands that it wasn't a day vig, and is really screwing with us. (shrug)


I will grant that there have been aspects of Ollie's response to pressure that look like town to me. But I've seen such flickers of town play coming through from both town and scum who have been under lynch pressure. (Also, I think some of the play that looks town - e.g., frustration, genuine happiness when people understand their POV - has a large overlap with coming from scum under lynch pressure.)

So now, finally, when just a few votes away from a lynch, a suspect starts acting town isn't going to save him from a lynch as far as I'm concerned. That is, what flashes of town I see in Ollie's play doesn't override my suspicions of the slot's prior occupants, my suspicions of Ollie's D2 play, or the scummy aspects of Ollie's response to the BW pressure today.

[Green Crayons]

I've offered an alternative to Ollie that I wish the rest of the town would at least consider.

You haven't made a case for why Flubber is more likely to be scum than Ollie.

Until you or anyone makes this case for any player, Ollie is the lynch for today.

[Green Crayons]

hi

replacement here and all

12 days until lynch

humor me and don't push for a lynch just yet

thanks!

Are you reading through the thread or just looking for highlights from other players?

[Green Crayons]

I mean are you trying to get a synopsis from other players as to what has happened prior to this game.

I'm not suggesting anything. It's a question of what are you doing: A or B?

[Green Crayons]

prior to your joining in this game*

[Green Crayons]

Can we just not have anyone respond to Ollie ever again?

Aneninen, I skimmed over your suspicions. It looks interesting. I'll give it a serious read D4.

[Green Crayons]

can anyone sucintlyct summarize the ollie lynch reasons

1. Prior occupants of Ollie's slot were scummy. Post 1104.

2. Ollie's D2 play towards Victor was scummy: he zeroed in on Victor, did a scummy psedu-1v1, and lodged bad suspicions against Victor. Post 1246, Post 1266, Post 1273, Post 1274, Post 1294.

3. Ollie's D3 play has been a mixed bag, including some pretty scummy stuff. Post 1325.

[Green Crayons]

Just doing some basic legwork before I dive into suspicions. I'll be looking into farside, FF, Adrien, and Flubber.

VictorDeAngelo

(7):

Mathdino

, Formerfish, farside22,

Ollie

,

Aneninen

,

Alchemist21

, Flubbernugget [LYNCH]

Ollie

(4): Green Crayons, droog, wgeurts,

VictorDeAngelo

Not Voting

(1): TheAdrienC

-----

Ok, I skimmed through the game and got some gut reads for you all.

Town:

Mathdino

droog

Amy Farrah Fowler

(GC Edit: Victor)

Alchemist21

Venrob

(GC Edit: GC)

Scum:

Siveure DtTrikyp

davesaz

Romitelli

(GC Edit: FF)

Null:
wgeurts

Aneninen

(FYI: probably never going to change)
TheAdrienC
farside22
Flubbernugget

Top 3 scumreads:

Siveure DtTrikyp

: My ISO really shouldn't leave any room for doubt as to why I'm scumreading him
Romitelli

(GC Edit: FF)

: Says nothing when he contributes. Pretty much classic scumlurking.
Flubbernugget/

davesaz

: Both are pretty weak reads overall and roughly equivalent in read strength; Flubber for #469/470 and davesaz for the earlier posts in his ISO I mentioned before.

Aneninen

townread is slipping from how he handled yesterday after the wagon on him started to vanish.

Alchemist

is still town.
Not really understanding the

Mathdino

push right now.
Not liking droog's AdrienC vote.

AmyFF

's

(GC Edit: Victor)

reads post-flips would be nice.
FormerFish is slightly town.

[Green Crayons]

Before replacing into this game: Flubber, droog, Amy, FF, farside.

I replaced into a game that wgeurts had previously died in, but we were not simultaneously alive.

[Green Crayons]

GC claimed tracker right? I could totally be misremembering that.

I am a VT.

Venrob went for the tracker role, though.

[Green Crayons]

@farside:

what do you make of the fact that Ollie insisted on calling me town among those who voted him (e.g., Post 1368), and then zeroed in on calling me tunneling town who just wouldn't critically reevaluate their suspicions?

I mean, sounds like the golden defense against GC. Especially if you had just played with me in Murder on the Orient Express, where I revealed that to be a major problem of self-doubt I have when town.

[Green Crayons]

@droog:

We still have a neighborizer or fruit vendor
What happened with that

What about it? Anen had a wrong theory about it back in Post 1343. Other than that, it's irrelevant as far as I can tell.

[Green Crayons]

It certainly isn't high utility, but if scum were on the lower end of the draft, it wouldn't be a bad strategy just to have something over nothing.

(shrug) Neighbor/fruit vendor seem pretty worthless for either scum or town.

[Green Crayons]

I don't understand your response.

[Green Crayons]

I was asking what do you think of Ollie's D3 strategy directed towards me.

He targeted me - and not any of his other voters - with the very flaw that I vocalized in Orient Express, which is a game that only you and I from this game played together.

[Green Crayons]

@FF:

Vote: Ollie

Hey buddy.

Added colon.

So why this vote?

[Green Crayons]

Well, I'm feeling lazy. So just confirm yourself as town, however you plan on doing that, so I can work off of that.

[Green Crayons]

i would actually like the person you picked night 2 to come forward
does anyone think it likely scum would neighborize with scum?
if not than id bet at least one of you's town

If you don't think FF is scum, then his current neighbor is scum only based on probabilities, nothing else, right?

Doesn't seem too useful.

I still stand by I don't think neighbor role is alignment indicative.

[Green Crayons]

GC, do you see scum with the #1 pick going for neighborizer?

The #1 pick? I don't follow.

[Green Crayons]

Yeah but Ank (Ollie) was the first scum to get a pick. If I'm reason things right.

I get what you're saying, and I think it would certainly have some weight if true, but amended to 2nd scum pick I don't know how I feel about it.



How do you feel about folks, FF?

[Green Crayons]

@farside:

I was asking what do you think of Ollie's D3 strategy directed towards me.

He targeted me - and not any of his other voters - with the very flaw that I vocalized in Orient Express, which is a game that only you and I from this game played together.

I don't get the similarities, but to be fair I barely read what scrambles said in the game you are referring to.
I'll tell you what I saw with Ollie that I remember.
He had illogical attacks based on no actual reasoning. He attacked me for just plain experience, did I find it odd he ignored you, yes, do I think that implies scum for you, no.
There is no correlation as scum buddies based on the attack you had on anka, then ollie the next day.
I think the weirdest thing was Ollie's fight and then hammer at the end.
Maybe he knew he was done.

I'm coming back to this one more time, because you're giving an answer but not really answering me.

1. Ollie singled me out from his voters to call misguided town.

2. This would be the perfect Ollie-scum defense to GC-town suspicions if GC-town had problems with doubting his suspicions.

3. There's a history of GC doubting his suspicions! See:

Spoiler: A Series of Posts from Open 566: Murder on the Oriental Express Where GC Explains His Flaw of Self Doubt

I personally experienced a similar – but not identical – reaction. I also had doubts about my scrambles vote after scrambles' response, but was talking my way through it and actually revoted scrambles after he did another scummy thing. (Yes, I also then unvoted again, based off of perpetual self-doubt, but once again, I was open about trying to work through my stance.)

My interaction with scrambles is simply part of an enduring saga with myself where I'm trying to not become blinded with confirmation bias while simultaneously not falling victim to self doubt.

Here's me talking about it after another game had concluded:

It even made me self reflect about why I play the way I do. Yo, MBL, my self-certainty is an overcorrection because I historically flounder between believing my suspicions and second guessing myself. I didn't want to get real with you in-game about that because I thought you were scum trying to exploit my self doubt.

I haven't really perfected a middle ground approach, and so I use other players I'm reading as town to help me figure it out.

GC: just so you know, I have the upmost respect for your thought process. I'm sorry I had to come back at you in bitch form. It was really fun to mess with you on some of your points.

<3

This was a hard game, if my constant self doubt didn't underscore that fact.

4. It would be pretty difficult to know about my self-doubt unless if someone had played in or observed that game.

5. Ollie was not in that game, and I have no reason to believe that he observed it. Yet he used the seemingly perfect anti-GC-town tactic.

You

, however, were in that previous game, and know all about my self-doubt saga. (I do not recall bringing up my self doubt in my game with droog or FF.)

6. I thought I connected these dots twice already. Are you still not seeing what I'm implying, here?

[Green Crayons]

Well that's a neat observation that has no relevance.

[Green Crayons]

It's like you don't even understand what I'm saying.

[Green Crayons]

lol

My defense? What in the world are you talking about?

[Green Crayons]

I'm saying farside looks like a potential scum buddy with Ollie because Ollie was trying to exploit GC-town weakness that only farside (from this game) knew about.

If you didn't pick that up from my multiple posts all but explicitly stating that - and somehow think I'm defending myself from some absent suspicions that don't exist? - you keep shining on you crazy diamond, but I can't reach you.

[Green Crayons]

Did farside-scum just miscount the scum:town population?

[Green Crayons]

Alright. Then last scum is either Adrien or Flubber, it looks like.

[Green Crayons]

But farside is clearly scum.

So I guess a 1:1 trade ain't bad.

[Green Crayons]

VOTE: farside

[Green Crayons]

^^^ I agree on all the points.

@farside:

why the 1637 slip? In the dead thread it looked like you did it on purpose?