13p Normal [TM2015]

[sthar8]

Hooray! I'll read up tonight after work. Or maybe today during work. Don't tell my boss.

[sthar8]

24 hours later...........

I am

sincerely

sorry that I didn't anticipate your exceptional need for my attention. I

deeply

regret any suffering you have endured while longing for my hand in yours. I

profoundly

wish that I could turn back the clock and eschew sleep, work, and my other obligations in order to sate your burning desire to feel my lips on your skin.

I have let down my family, my friends, and the sport of golf.

Hopefully I'll be home in an hour and a half.

[sthar8]

Lookit that. I got home and it's technically before midnight.

I've got limited experience with Thor and I think nobody else in this playerlist? If I'm forgetting something I'm sorry. I want to say before we get too deep that I've been looking forward to playing with a lot of you and IMO we have the coolest team mafia playerlist.

@jason- why did you comment on my activity, but not delta's?

I like Thor and STD's interactions. They can be town for now.

@skrew- marry me, and after the honeymoon tell me what you're thinking wrt Trojan

@fen- do you feel like expounding on any of your other reads?

@ boon- wrt 139, why is that?

I feel like I'm forgetting something I wanted to talk about but its hard to do this while yawning so much. See y'all tomorrow after I finish with the hell-house.

p-edit oh blarg that case. pie just jumped into the 'persons of interest' group for me.

[sthar8]

Vote sthar

I feel like he's taking easy stances and asking obvious questions rather than telling us what he truly believes.

Examples:
-Delta lurking
-caling Thor vs STD town vs town
-asking fenchurch for a new reads list
-the boon question

It's not that he's being "useless" or anything. It just has a blend in and contribute for the sake of it vibe to me.

Really? I have given exactly one stance and given the other expressed opinions it was far from obvious. I have not given an opinion on delta lurking. I did not ask fen for a new reads list, that is not what 'expound' means.

Had anyone else asked 'the boon question?' Do you think the answer was useful, despite it being obvious?

p-edit oh blarg that case. pie just jumped into the 'persons of interest' group for me.

what didn't you like about it?

It was super hedgy. I came out of it with no clear feeling how much you suspect jason. And outsourcing reads to people outside the thread seems valuable to scum.

[sthar8]

Doing this now, everything else tomorrow.

Your response about Delta and Fenchurch kind of misses my point.

No. You said that I'd either taken an easy stance or asked an obvious question about delta lurking, which is factually untrue. You also said that I'd either taken an easy stance or asked an obvious question about asking fenchurch to post an updated readslist, which is

also factually untrue

. Do not pretend you have some salient point regarding your failure to read my post.

I thought some of your questions had obvious answers (Boon)

So the answer boon gave me ("we have prior experience together and pie is good at reading me") should have been obvious to me, a player with no experience with either pie or boon? That's nonsensical. Further, the point of the question was that boon's townread appeared flippant and poorly thought out. I thought (and still think) that it's possible he was trying to buddy pie. By asking him to explain, we get full details that are either stretching logic or revealing his thought process, and pie can help determine which. From pie's comment, she believes that boon is stretching his logic. I don't know about you, but in my book that's valuable information.

and you were trying to appear to contribute rather than find scum (the Fenchurch and Delta things).

Asking jason how he felt about delta lurking as compared to me 'lurking' let me know right now whether he was concerned about lurkers in general or my missed deadline in particular. In other words, whether he's exercising a policy based on theory or just looking for some irrelevant bullshit to push me on. It could also be valuable as an associative later on, as it could indicate a connection between jason and delta.

Wrt Fen, I was uncomfortable with the reads list in 65. Particularly, the townread on skrew (who has been pretty null so far, I'm waiting on more content to sort him. I think he even commented to that effect himself), the scumread on jason, and the push on STD. But a few posts later, her explanations of those things made me feel much better about her. They were perspectives different from my own but still cogent. That makes any further information she wants to offer valuable.

Wrt Thor/STD, if you needed more explanation, you could have asked. A laconic post does not indicate a lack of justification, especially when I also explicitly indicated that I wanted to be asleep. As it is, I think your hasty conclusion indicates that you're fitting evidence to your suspicion, and not the other way around. Same with the factual inaccuracies that you insist are somehow relevant and the incorrect plural in your reasoning.

[sthar8]

I already answered about the Fenchurch and Delta things. They read as trying to appear to contribute rather than truly find scum.

Except you were completely wrong about what was going on there. You theoretically based your conclusion on a misunderstanding of what was happening, then when corrected insist that your conclusion still holds with no evidence.

On Boon, he was getting at the fact that Pie knows he is mislynch bait as town so if Pie was town, why list Boon as a town read?

What part of this was supposed to be obvious to me? Just like with all your other accusations, you're assuming I have all the information you do.

Still, he admitted that was a weak read and you (you're not the only one) are acting like he said Pie was confirmed town for that.

Whoa! He admitted it was a weak read

after

I questioned him on it. Also, show your damn work. Where did I suggest or imply that he said pie was confirmed? You don't get to just make shit up.

I'd be absolutely shocked if Jason was dumb enough as scum to push you as a lurker vote with a scumbuddy who is a worse offender of the same thing. That's just asking to be connected later on. Even if you haven't played with Jason, surely you realize this is a strong playerlist.

This is atrociously fallacious in addition to being unevenly applied, and are you planning on making a pie with all the cherries you're picking? To reiterate, the point was to see whether he was pushing me based on policy or a bad argument. Drawing a connection with delta was a useful potential consequence. Assuming that even seasoned players cannot make mistakes is fantastically shitty play, especially since there was a further benefit and no risk associated.

Ok, so why is Thor vs STD town vs town then?

I can be more specific later, but for now my impression was that neither party was informed when they began their interactions. It looks like they were genuinely trying to figure each other out.

VOTE: Egg
He's not looking for scum, he's looking for an easy case to push and he's trying to scare me off scumhunting.

I need to think about boon v jason more, and look pie over again. Pie obviously looks way better if boon flips scum.

back later.

[sthar8]

Read Ninja Mafia, there's one.

This needs to be a link if you want me to look at it.

[sthar8]

Super busy today. Egg is scum. Back later.

[sthar8]

It's Easter and I'm hanging out with the kids today instead of y'all.

[sthar8]

I oppose the Egg push, the logic of 'he's avoiding scumhunting' by asking sthar8 for his thoughts is...well, that's actually the definition of scumhunting, methinks.

Can you read in English? Egg never asked me for thoughts. He just announced that I was scum.

pieguyn, sthar, Micc - please check in when you can. You've each made around 10 posts or fewer, we need to hear more from you.

Spring break here, so I'm spending more time with the kiddos. Plus I just finished cleaning out the nightmare house, and we moved a literal ton of garbage so I've been tuckered. You're not getting more than a digest post per day from me, but I'm doing my best to make that count.

oh
my
god

Becky

usually when town posts smth like this it's in response to being constantly pushed for what they perceive as bad arguments, and not a first-instinct snap-reaction in response

That's nonsensical. If egg had pushed me more or pressured me or done literally anything in the way of trying to figure me out, it WOULD NOT indicate that he was grasping to fit his evidence to his case, given that the evidence
was 'you didn't justify your page 6 town read at midnight in your first game-relevant post.'

the alternative here is that he's town and somehow believes he's that much of a special snowflake that Egg (someone he claims has never played with him before) would actually be scared enough of him to not be able to handle a few posts where sthar pressures him.

Oooh dismissive strawman. You can take that shit right back to wherever you bought it. Actually, it is just good scumplay to foster apathy and inactivity in the town. By attacking my immediate entrance into the game and painting my attempts to figure people out as scummy, Egg puts me on the defensive. I'll have trouble engaging if I'm spending time defending my first impressions, it makes getting into the game an uphill battle, and since I wind up spending time not generating game content it might make me into a viable mislynch.

Sthar is voting Egg. Id like to see that explained sooner rather than later.

jfc why don't you try reading my posts

I find it interesting that pie is willing to collaborate with what is ostensibly her biggest scumread to try lynching me. Also that I jumped into her suspicions after pushing egg while her case seems to be 'don't like the case on egg.'

I would lynch in {egg, pie, maybe delta} today. I am willing to admit that my delta read might be severely biased. I might outsource my thor read. I'm not comfortable lynching boon at all. Townreads currently are {fen, STD, Trojan, boon}

Only mildly game-relevant:

Those of you making the 'active lurking' argument can just go fuck yourselves. I told the mod I'd be v/la until the 31st, I'm exceptionally busy in meatworld, and I think I'm allowed to spend time with the kids on a holiday weekend. Despite all of that and still not having a place to live, I'm keeping up with the thread and adding content. And we still have plenty of time till the deadline and I'm not getting prodded. So if you can't content yourself with an actual wall every day, please choose from the following:
1) write me a check for some amount that will allow me to live comfortably while ignoring my other obligations so I can entertain you
2) take up a hobby, like maybe sterilizing yourself with a hammer
3) read my posts one sentence at a time, so you can pretend i'm spamming.

[sthar8]

what exactly is wrong here? you were saying this angle is disingenuous and that he was coming to a "hasty conclusion". so, for what reason does town-Egg have to necessarily draw a different conclusion from it?

His conclusion was 'trying to appear to contribute without doing so.' But my opinions were not the big popular ones, my questions all had utility and none of them had already been answered. He made a bunch of unsupported assertions involving factual inaccuracies. His read of my posts was not accurate, but he still pushed the same conclusion. What reason does town have to push a conclusion despite the evidence being bad?

your angle essentially amounted to Egg being scum because he came out the gate pushing you immediately instead of giving you space. and yes, you're claiming it's because of your real-life situation

That is actually not true. My 'angle' amounts to egg being scum because his conclusions were not factually supported but he still wanted to push the point regardless. Town is trying to determine the alignment of others, and Egg did not care that his conclusion was based on no reasoning. That says to me that he felt the appearance of having a point was more important than actually having a point. Which is scum motivated.

You

and

Thor

are working the 'active lurking' line, which is patently untrue as well as irrelevant to the game. Why do you think egg's argument ('your questions are easy and the answers were obvious') has anything to do with my meatworld situation (I can only post about once a day)?

on top of that, this is all entirely discounting the fact that what you're saying isn't actually what Egg's case on you was. Egg's "evidence" was more than just you not explaining reads - it was based around the stances you took in general and the questions you asked.

This is disingenuous cherry picking. I've discussed the other points at length with egg, and to come in and say 'well this one topic of discussion is scummy because it doesn't encompass all the things you have talked about' is sketchy at best.

this at least makes some sense, but I don't find it compelling because it's not the type of thing I'd ever do as scum. the obvious counter to it is to not bother wasting all your time responding to said accusations and continue scum hunting normally without regard to their read on you.

I still think the tone of your post read more like scum posturing (although I can't exactly expect you to defend this, so meh). I'm also wondering why your instinct here was to call this a strongman - what do you think me-scum has to gain by strawman'ing you here when it'd be obvious the angle I'm pushing is wrong after you explained it? the more likely scenario is that I misinterpreted your post, regardless of alignment.

You will excuse me for not finding 'That makes sense from scum but I don't think Egg is doing it because I would never do it' to be a cogent argument. Same goes for 'you're scum for tone but I can't explain why.'

By making the point into an argument about my ego, you paint my whole argument as founded in a narcissistic mindset. You're trying to get me to argue that Egg should or should not view me as a threat, and being dismissive both makes me more likely to respond along those lines and makes all of my logic look unfounded if someone reads that point at face value. The scum advantage here is pretty clear.

If I'm wrong and you just misinterpreted the post, then you took my point of 'Egg doesn't want unengaged players like myself getting into the game' as 'Egg should be scared of me because I'm the best scumhunter!' That's quite a leap, and you add a lot of unwarranted assumptions to my words.

If

you are town, making that leap and then being dismissive of me for it was incredibly rude.

But, assuming that you made that leap, why would the size of my ego be relevant to my alignment?

also I'm wondering why you're pushing this:

It was super hedgy. I came out of it with no clear feeling how much you suspect jason. And outsourcing reads to people outside the thread seems valuable to scum.

as a reason for me being scum, while later saying you might outsource your Thor read.

if you have the time, I'd also appreciate gun-to-the-head reads on jason and Thor (yes, you said you might defer it to someone else, but I'm interested in what *you* specifically are thinking here).

Maybe I was unclear: I mean that I might sheep someone else on Thor because my read on him is conflicted. You, on the other hand, were specifically trying to sheep players who are not in this game and therefore less invested in it, without first attempting to read the players you were asking about.

gun to the head, the only problem I have with Jason is the movement of his wagon so I don't want to lynch him. His posting seems pretty good, and although I think his boon case is bad I have gotten caught up on similar things as town.

Thor is more difficult. His early interactions with STD read like he was trying to provoke him in order to make him easier to read, which is pretty town. But he's spending a good amount of time talking about things I think are irrelevant, and I can't recall the last thing I agreed with him about which makes me think scum. BUT the last two times I've played with him he screwed up his role catastrophically. Basically I have this weird dichotomous opinion of Thor as skilled and logical but sometimes terrible, and I can't tell if he's being good scum or awful town. At the moment, based on where the wagons are in thread, I'm leaning good scum.

sthar8: I'm not trying to be critical but is there something else to your pie read than her attacks on you?

Yeah. She's not really solid on anything (except me and thor now I guess?), and she's got a lot of unsupported assertions in her arguments. There's a lot of 'seems like scum' 'seems awkward' and 'didn't like' which is a nice way to call people scummy without actually explaining why they're helping scum. Same thing in her town reads, lot of 'it makes sense' 'i like it' and such, without explaining why. That's not really a big deal, but she's also looking for a lot of specifics from the people she questions, which is creating an information differential that bugs the hell out of me because it lets scum manipulate the flow of the game. I feel like she's attempting an argument by wordcount as well, because despite the length of her posts I dunno where she stands except on me and thor. I'd be happy to lynch her as of right now.

Yes...?
I would say a stated challenge like that is just as valid as a question in offering you the chance to present your counterargument.
Why do you disagree?

Because announcing 'I am likely to ignore anything you say' is not conducive to valuable discourse. Also the question 'tell me why you're not scum?' is of exceptionally limited utility. Also trying to get answers on specific positions by stating a poorly justified general conclusion is like trying to order soup by telling the waiter 'If you don't bring me food, I'm never coming here again'

It's the

least

valuable way to read someone, unless you have prior experience with their reactions.

Ffrey is reading the game and has offered some thoughts as well.

'The tooth fairy is reading the game and has offered some thoughts as well' is about as convincing as this statement btw.

ily

but I was a little pissed off that I got a literal answer to the question; I honestly don't understand how you think I didn't want an explanation, or that Ceph didn't want further clarification unless your intent was to be obstructionist.

If I was to ask you - is your team reading this game with you?
You mean to tell me your answer would not be 'yes' but would instead be a listing of every thought they had offered?
Nah.

If I was to tell you - you're scum
You mean to tell me your answer would not be 'no i'm not' but would instead be a listing of every thought you had offered?
...

Something is wrong here.

Egg is still scum. Pie is still scum. I might compromise on Thor.

[sthar8]

Also there's a double standard wrt Skrew that is making the hair on my toes stand up. I need to dig around later and figure it out.

[sthar8]

Because announcing 'I am likely to ignore anything you say' is not conducive to valuable discourse. Also the question 'tell me why you're not scum?' is of exceptionally limited utility. Also trying to get answers on specific positions by stating a poorly justified general conclusion is like trying to order soup by telling the waiter 'If you don't bring me food, I'm never coming here again'

It's the

least

valuable way to read someone, unless you have prior experience with their reactions.

Yet, somehow, it did generate discourse with you - didn't it? Which is the opposite of what you claimed he was doing.
I am not really following this issue.

It is quite clear that you're not following. He did not, at any point, contribute anything to the discussion that looked like he was trying to figure out my alignment. So to claim that me talking was the intended result of his post is silly.

If I was to tell you - you're scum
You mean to tell me your answer would not be 'no i'm not' but would instead be a listing of every thought you had offered?
...

Something is wrong here.

My answer would exactly be 'no' ...or 'that is a stupid question'.
Yours wouldn't?

Yes, it totally would. So why should Egg be able to assume that just calling me scum is going to get me to interact? You're being inconsistent.

Egg is still scum. Pie is still scum. I might compromise on Thor.

These reads are terrible.
Does your team sign off on them? (I will accept a yes/no answer...since, y'know, that's what I asked, crazy that)

Don't know, don't care. The heartless kids are focused on their games and ETL was asking for my thoughts on hers. Plus she's been sick and I've been moving, so not much in the PT.

[sthar8]

Attacking someone to see how they react is *exactly* trying to figure out an alignment last I checked.
Do you not do this?

He had decided his position before I reacted. That's not the same thing.

I don't think I am - because he didn't ask you that question nor couch it in those terms.
That said, since you agree with me about what a normal response would be - what's your take on STD?

He couched it in factual inaccuracy and nonspecific vagary. It's functionally the same thing.

As far as STD, I think he's genuinely frustrated and it's clearly coloring his responses. He looks otherwise town. You are being somewhat obtuse, but I dunno if you're just doing it because you enjoy it or because you're scum.

I fully am aware of how useless ETL has been this last week or so.
Do you expect your heads to group scumhunt or not?

Maybe. Consensus is that I'm the least likely to need an outside opinion, I think. Once I'm caught up on everyone else's games and everyone's recovered from the plague I'm sure they'll take a look in here, but I don't anticipate a lot of disagreement.

[sthar8]

Trojan Jorse


I don't see the issue.

[sthar8]

Is this really the first time you've experienced this from anyone?
Do you never get "conclusions" before analysis from town?

Conclusions before analysis generally implies some addiional factor. It could be looking for reactions, but that wasn't borne out by egg's following posts. It could be a meta factor, but I've never played with egg before. My scenario fits better than any town motivation, so it's the one I'm going with.

I disagree, so this is a non-starter for me to see his approach as scummy.

Okay, well, I guess we can append that to the list of things Thor's wrong about this game. I still don't believe that if I said to you 'You're scum because you OMGUSsed jason and I didn't like your fen vote and your STD position is the most popular in the thread' the expected response would be you listing all of your reads and positions.

Clearly - but frustration is a null tell.

Sure but where you're seeing 'caught scum' I'm seeing 'pissed at Thor'

Why?

Even while he's trying not to call you names, he's trying to figure out the other players. Not looking for an easy lynch, but trying to suss out motivations behind the posts. And he's been open with his thought process, even wrt you, and trying to cut the bias out of his reads. He's playing an uninformed game, and that means town. I do hate the boon vote, but I'm pretty solid on this read.

You and your team tend to think very alike then? Or you think you have eough pull to sway the rest of them regardless?

Well TTH speaks all the same languages as me. Our hydra was basically one of us saying something, and the other saying 'yeah that sounds right.' When I hydra with ETL she holds up all the parts of the game that I find terminally boring, then follows my conclusions. And Anti just watched me take apart molliegeddon, so he's pretty trusting of my towngame right now. So both I guess?

What was that about a double standard wrt me?

There was the active lurking note on me, and I remember someone else getting pushed for 'not doing anything' right now. But you've basically stated that you're not going to contribute today and I don't see you taking any flak for it. I need to dig around and see if activity standards are being unevenly applied and figure out what I think that means if they're not. But I'm tired tonight and I'm working a 12 tomorrow, so it'll be Saturday after I help the boys with homework.

I don't think the evidence was bad. To be fair, you haven't followed up on ANY of it except in response to me. If I hadn't said anything, I honestly can't say I believe you'd have done anything with it. Therefore, it was apparently a pretty useless post even though it has the appearance of contribution. So I wasn't exactly wrong on it.

I have drawn conclusions and continued developing reads from what I learned there. Those questions were instrumental in developing my townreads on Fen and Boon. I understand why you'd think otherwise since I'm not being super explicit about my process, but that's because my time is being consumed by pushing my primary case.

If this was true, I wouldn't be wavering on my read on you. Are you even reading my posts? The above seems to apply more to your stance on me than the other way around.

And how am I supposed to know that your read is wavering? Am I a mind reader? Also, changing your read after I called you out for having a static read in the face of changing evidence is not particularly impressive.

Aaaaaand I'm caught up.

Vote Boon

This is a vote for a low-hanging fruit wagon.

My main concern with Boon is how he first throws out the VI card and then goes all "lol I can be useful" and does nothing. The entire purpose of his game right now is trying to WIFOM votes on him into looking bad.

This is preparing for flip fallout.

@ fen- talk to me about pie. Where's your townread coming from?

@pie- wanna play a question game? You ask me one, I ask you one, repeat until we're satisfied. No agenda, no baiting, just help me figure out where you're coming from.

[sthar8]

That's OK, it's more about thought process than anything else.

How do you feel about meta as a scumhunting tool?

[sthar8]

VOTE: Thor

Epiphany. I'm mobile, so explanation and fact checking later.

[sthar8]

VOTE: Thor

Epiphany. I'm mobile, so explanation and fact checking later.

I also don't like this.~

I'm sorry, but I officially lost my entire capacity to care about an hour ago.

[sthar8]

I lost any capacity to care about anything, but close family/friends since tuesday.

I'd still like you to explain your naked vote and jump though.

I know, and I'm sorry for snapping. I'm starting the drive to the place I'm staying now after having been at work for 12.5 hours. When I get there I'm gonna eat for the first time today, then I'll come explain my vote. I can't do the relevant reading and quoting on mobile and I've been on my feet all day. I felt that I conveyed clearly that I'd be unvoting or explaining later, but I'm sorry if that wasn't the case.

[sthar8]

What was that about a double standard wrt me?

stharry

There was the active lurking note on me, and I remember someone else getting pushed for 'not doing anything' right now. But you've basically stated that you're not going to contribute today and I don't see you taking any flak for it. I need to dig around and see if activity standards are being unevenly applied and figure out what I think that means if they're not. But I'm tired tonight and I'm working a 12 tomorrow, so it'll be Saturday after I help the boys with homework.

This is the first thing on my to-do list tomorrow after helping with research for a report on public transportation in the 1930s.

[sthar8]

Okay, so, I totally get that thor's ego killed the dinosaurs when he vacationed in Mexico, and he probably has some kind of socialization or empathy issue that often prevents him from understanding when he's being offensive, but still allows him to take offense when someone lashes back. That's all personality and not alignment related.

But there is a huge disconnect between

Players are dumb and play badly without it affecting their alignment.

and

I can't get over how derp and scummy that Save The Dragons post is.

"Is Ffrey reading?
Yes.
That's not very convincing!
...bwuh?

Like, what is the magical convincing it's supposed to generate? I didn't claim it supported or attacked anything, but he attacked it anyway after *asking* me to state it.
I don't think he's reading, I think he's just attacking.

And after STD made it clear how upset he was, Thor keeps calling him bad

in every post

. That's beyond the realm of incidental misunderstanding and well into the world of intentional. Thor wants STD upset and off balance... why? He's pulling fuel for his case out of STD's anger, but he agrees with me that being upset is a null tell.

If thor is town, then why does he need STD upset?

[sthar8]

@sthar:

whatever happened to our Q/A session? I'm also wondering if you're town reading me now (and if you are, what in that exchange made you read me as town) or for specifically what reason you've stopped pushing me, notably given the fact that I still haven't responded to your last set of questions re: me from a while back.

I'll have full thoughts later, but I worked a 12 on Friday, did homework with the boy yesterday, got called to bus around the end of a teenage party last night, and I'm working a 12 today. I feel like you would know at least some of this if you were reading my posts. Please be patient.

[sthar8]

In the meantime, vote thor with me

[sthar8]

catching up now. still at work so might disappear suddenly.

do you generally consider attempting to withhold suspicion of, and work with, scum reads as town a valid strategy?

p-edit: @sthar

Not really, no. I guess I can see a theory behind it, trying to see how your scumread interacts with other players in hopes of finding their team? But I see two major downsides. First, when confronted directly for an opinion about their partner, scum of any skill will be trying to avoid creating associatives. Since they know you're town, you're basically confronting someone who is prepared and dealing with you from a position of strength. I much prefer to associate scum through actions, like which wagons they push and who they buddy with. Second, imo obscuring your motives like that makes it harder for the town to read

you

, and harder for your thoughts to be used effectively if you die. This is a team game, and making it harder for your teammates to figure you out is not particularly helpful even if you catch all the scum alone.

How do you feel about establishing townreads and catching scum through POE?

I'm gonna do this via spam so I dont lose anything.

[sthar8]

Thor and egg are scum. Lynch thor, profit. Back again later.

[sthar8]

Im not done catching up yet pie, but do you have a new question for me?

[sthar8]

Well I'm not but you're helping me figure you out, so humor me.

When I started playing, I preferred big long logical cases and they generally worked. Since my return to the site and the general reaction to long cases becoming 'tl;dr,' I've been working with a single short case post, argument by repeated assertion, projected confidence and answering questions. If I have the time to interact, I like exchanging walls with my target. If I'm wrong, I can usually figure it out more easily the more they post. If I'm right, they usually come off looking bad and everybody's more interested in helping me lynch them.

Who in this game do you have prior experience with? Whose teammates do you know well?

[sthar8]

Fucking vote Thor already, scumbag. Buy yourself some town points.

[sthar8]

I am right. Hiders a shit claim. And if I'm wrong, Thor would have played it like shit anyway

[sthar8]

VOTE: Egg

If there's anything I missed from yesterday, please point it out to me. A dungeon slime has moved into my skull and is attempting to mate with my brain.

I'll probably have a full readslist later

[sthar8]

Oh FFS. Homework for everybody: go read Delta's iso and explain to me how he's possibly town

{egg, delta} are my pool today.

[sthar8]

gah i just lost a post. dammit work internet

[sthar8]

Sthar, why don't you seem to think there is scum in {Boon/Mala/Vyse}?

Well, I already have two strong scumreads.

Beyond that, Boon is pretty damn town. Mala and Vyse are just now getting their heads in the game, and I'm willing to give them the space to do that. If they lapse into lurking or otherwise become unreadable we can talk about them.

town are {jason, boon, STD}

scum are {egg, delta}

@pie- you don't think that Egg wouldn't be tempted to jump Thor's obviously sinking ship to be a part of an otherwise all-town wagon? Even under pressure, when he knew that he was visibly active at deadline?

[sthar8]

I'm sure egg is scum. Your iso makes you second place because there's nothing town motivated in it. Boon is town because he's got a good thought process and he's an easy wagon that has had a ton of shit pushes made on him.

[sthar8]

I could go pbp, but I'm still at work. What exactly is the question you want to ask me?

[sthar8]

I think you were trying to hedge on thor, and you spent day1 being useless and then being abrasive so nobody would call you on it.

[sthar8]

Why don't you tell me why you know my motivations better than I do

How could I know them better than you? I'd say we're both very familiar with them at this point. It's shared knowledge.

[sthar8]

Your real life issues, mala. I'm sorry but they were clearly affecting your play yesterday. I've been there, I know how tough that kind of thing can be.

Short answer is: Hider is a strong investigative, which Zor was explicitly avoiding in TM setups. Telling Thor that he would have screwed it up was based on the last time I saw him play an investigative, in molliegeddon. He screwed up his role and got shot needlessly by one of the saddest scumteams I've ever encountered

[sthar8]

<3

I must be missing it. I just ISO'd Thor in molliegeddon. I didn't really see anything wrong in his play other than he was killed N1.

I guess I don't really agree with hider being a strong investigative role other than it being immune to a nightkill unless whoever they 'hid' behind was killed. Granted I haven't played with a hider that much, but I have been a hider before. Crumbs are the hardest thing for a hider to do because it gives risks.

I mean, he could have claimed and been protected by one of the two available protections that night and gone on to actually use his role... There's also antihero redemption where he shot the towniest obvtown in the thread as a vig. But that's not really relevant.

Hiders get unconditional innocents, and they cannot be directly stopped by scum. In a setup with no strong protective, hiders are

better than cops

at clearing town. It's

less

skill intensive than something Zor explicitly did not want in the setups for

not being skill intensive enough

. Further, it cannot exist in the same setup as another investigative. Thor was obviously looking to out any real investigatives we did have.

[sthar8]

Prod dodge for a bit, I wound up with three kids this morning. I'll be back this afternoon to catch up, but if you have anything specific please let me know.

[sthar8]

I'm really fucking lost and I feel like the day is moving really fast. Does anybody wanna be a good samaritan and help me catch up?

I feel like I'm speaking German and Pie is speaking Swiss. Half the time her posts are spot on, and the other half I'm getting instructions on how to turn a lawnmower into a bong.


I gotta say that my primary deterrent on the Mala wagon is how it feels like everybody is talking about wanting to be on it except obvtown Boon. Couple that with not getting the case and my top scumread being on the wagon and I'm not really inclined to push it much.

Skrew is problematic, but I'm feeling inclined to give him more time.

AFAICT Egg is still a fantastic lynch. The only argument I've seen for him being town amounts to WIFOM.

[sthar8]

Sure.

1. Do you remember the boon wagon d1? Without checking, who wanted to lynch boon yesterday? When did the wagons start?
2. This is going to sound harsher than I intend it to be, but the whole case on boon yesterday was 'he plays poorly as town and he can't explain why.' Which is... not alignment relevant. It reads like jason pushing a crapcase and scum letting him do that because it was good for them. See also: Thor's incredibly neutral stance on the boon wagon while actively pushing jason.
3. The case on him today is crap. He didn't interact with Thor? Sure, he also didn't interact with me, or fen.

[sthar8]

the tl;dr of it is that her play this game day just isn't coming from town. none of it.

You said this about me yesterday so...

How much of your reads are coming from mastin?

it's not WIFOM, it's basic common sense

if you see a L-1 wagon on your scum partner, and there's less than a minute until deadline runs out and a no lynch occurs, what do you do? even discounting some of the nuances behind it - no lynch on D1 (or, specifically, the first no lynch in the game) is functionally the same for scum as a mislynch as it still takes them to 3 more mislynches required to win instead of 4, barring PR shenanigans, and it's also strategically better as town gains fuck all when it comes to useful information rather than a scum flip (which is pretty fucking good in terms of information) - you just don't fucking needlessly hammer your scum partner.

it's bad play if he was scum, and I'm not ruling it out entirely, but at this point I'm working under the assumption that Egg isn't a fucking idiot who'd shoot himself in the foot. if it becomes relevant again later, I'd consider it again.

So under pressure with a minute left on the clock, you find it impossible that he didnt consider day phase math. Kay.

I don't get why Skrew is problematic. Can you explain that for me? Also this is probably the third person so far this game that you said you would be inclined to give more time. I feel like you're trying to dance step your way away from certain things.

Because I don't have him as obvtown despite his assertions, and I think he has the balls to just coast as scum like that. But there are a couple things that could mean, so that's mostly me taking in-thread notes.

And yeah, I'm willing to give that more time. Because I have two good scumreads. I'm not sure why that's hard to comprehend.

I know I didn't interact with Egg or Sthar on day 1.

you said in the pt you werent going to mention this.

@vyse- vote egg with me. we can live the dream

[sthar8]

It just feels like you're waiting til his wagon grows and then you'd be willing to jump on it. That's why your comments have been kinda bothering me so much including that one.

im not voting skrew today. let's be clear on that. there are too many better wagons.

[sthar8]

oh my bad, i'll work on that right now

[sthar8]

also std just called me old

[sthar8]

and now he's hitting on me

[sthar8]

sthar8 old buddy old pal ol' chum

I don't actually see a strong case on Egg by you, can you clarify (or point me to) your case?

OK so

1. Egg spent day1 making easy wagon pushes, but his reads didn't evolve with new information or change with pushback, except to get ignored in favor of more likely wagons.

2. bullshit semantics intentionally frustrating arguments

3. Defense of Thor, mostly for bullshit claim reasons that were unevenly applied to jason

4. no scumhunting

5. "I wouldn't hammer a buddy to get townread" -Egg "Egg can't be scum, he hammered Thor"- pie

6. His lynch pool today are two proficiency lynches and a lurker push. On day 2. After a scumflip.

7. Hard defense of delta for shitty reasons after a scumflip. He's either protecting his buddy or trying to look like he's protecting his buddy.

I've been functionally mobile for four days, so no links. If you need specifics, ask please.

It just feels like you're waiting til his wagon grows and then you'd be willing to jump on it. That's why your comments have been kinda bothering me so much including that one.

im not voting skrew today. let's be clear on that. there are too many better wagons.

I disagree. I think Skrew is a decent wagon. I'd prefer if Delta was lynched over Egg, honestly. Pie semi convinced me on possible Town Egg, but meh. He just seems super scummy. I want Delta or Vyse on a stick toDay.

Vyse and skrew are lurker wagons. We're not doing that.

I'm....... pretty sure I didn't? my read on you was mostly bc I thought your push on Egg was forced. it sure as hell isn't the same as this, nor was it anywhere near as strong.

My point is, yesterday you told me that my actions were just not town motivated, and my reaction was to think you were nuts. I'm not gonna take that as a scumtell since I know that as of last day phase, it wasn't.

I don't think you're scum, but I do think you're biased here because of the way Egg was pushing you earlier and because of how bad his soft defense of Thor looks, and as a result you aren't objectively looking at the whole picture with respect to how the end of D1 played out. him hammering isn't WIFOM, and it will never be.

Sure. Maybe I'm biased because of how scummy egg was day1. But I'm not the only one seeing this, so it's probably not personal bias. And both you and he have made the point that it doesn't look like a planned bus. I agree with that. It looks like a snap decision under pressure.

I think egg's actually anti-town day1 coupled with his thor associatives are more solid than anything else on the table.

Also, @sthr, why do you think you have been added to my teammates scumdar?

I'm sure I don't care. Why do you think I should?

Is it too late to lynch Boon?

Holy opportunism.

and I feel there is one scum between Delta and SK.. who do you think has the better chance of flipping scum?

Delta by miles. Why do you not want to vote Egg?

WRT Delta, I don't know if Thor's scum partner spends the entire day literally doing almost nothing but trying to start a wagon on Thor's other scum read.

Why not? This reads as incredibly advantageous for scum.

[sthar8]

My point is, yesterday you told me that my actions were just not town motivated, and my reaction was to think you were nuts. I'm not gonna take that as a scumtell since I know that as of last day phase, it wasn't.

as I said, my reasoning for scum reading you on D1 was completely different than my reasoning for scum reading Mala here.

Right, that's not my point. I agree with a lot of that, but thing like being wrong about in-thread events and being defensive are not explicitly scummy. What I was responding to was your argument that mala's

response to your case

was inherently scummy.

pushing that Egg made a snap decision under pressure relies on the assumption that he didn't take any time at all when all this was happening to consider what he'd actually do. I'm mostly interested in why you think he wouldn't actually do this.

I'm sure he did have a plan. But he comes back into the thread to try to get Fen to hammer trojan and get his scumbuddy off the hook for the day and/or look like he was trying to prevent a no-lynch for towncred, Fen responds with a logical argument that he didn't anticipate, and then he's under pressure from me and Fen with very little time left on the clock, and he decides to hammer his scumbuddy to look like town. It's not a long logical leap.

On the other hand "you're biased because egg's day 1 is scummy; I'm ignoring that because he was the last second hammer" is blowing my mind. All I can say in response is that I don't think a lawnmower blade can generate enough lift to get the whole bookcase off the ground.

Sthar, you said at the beginning of the day that Delta was scum. You seemed very sure of it but haven't really commented on him since. Do you have a case against him? Are you still scum reading him. You also said you don't like the Mala wagon. Do you think she's town? Am I right in assuming you'd prefer a Delta lynch to a Mala lynch?

I have a stronger scumread.
I asked everyone how they felt about his ISO and nobody posted anything that pointed to him being town that I remember.
I would prefer Delta-lynch to mala-lynch if we decide to ignore the good lynch today.
I am not townreading mala. She's pretty null since she hasn't really done much, but also hasn't really been given room to do anything but react. But there's no reason to compromise on a null or lurker or proficiency lynch today when my scumreads are viable wagons.

[sthar8]

Sthar, I feel like you decided to scum read me as soon as I questioned you at the beginning of day 1 and everything you see, you try to make fit that mold.

viable wagons

I'd like to know how you define this. I have one vote (yours) and we are five days from deadline. If mala and Delta both happen to claim power roles, we'll be in the same spot as yesterday where there is no other lynch option and the chances of that working out nicely on back to back days are pretty low. Do you honestly believe you can sway five people in five days?

Yes? Me, Vyse, Boon, TH. Mala will vote out of self preservation. That means I need... one vote, and skrew was willing to vote you at the beginning of the day.

you're missing the fucking point

You can fuck right off with this. I said I find your points unconvincing and that one point bad, and you're moving the goalposts on the point I made. Ask mastin how I feel about people trying to railroad me into shit.

Mala: "mastin is scum reading me because I voted TH D1, tell her to reread plz"
me: "no, mastin is scum reading you because of your play in general"
Mala: "mastin is scum reading me because I voted TH D1, tell her to reread plz"
me: "no, I just fucking told you mastin is scum reading you because of your play in general"
Mala: "...... DERP DERP NOPE"

So, assuming you're town, I tell you that antihero is scumreading you because *your play.* What the fuck is the townie response to that? I would say "well antihero is fucking wrong." Antihero isn't as invested in the game as someone who's playing it, you can't interact with antihero, and there's no expectation that antihero has some magic fucking process that lets him solve the game from outside it.
Mala's response was "Well maybe this is why mastin is scumreading me." Which is not actually alignment indicative because if she's town she's trying to figure out what she's doing wrong and if she's scum she's trying to manipulate mastin. And what the fuck is she supposed to say to "NO THATS NOT WHY SHE THINKS YOU'RE SCUM!!!1!" Like, fucking of course she's going to continue to disagree. Either she KNOWS FOR A FACT THAT MASTIN IS FULL OF SHIT or SHE HAS TO PRETEND THAT SO SHE PLAYS TO HER WIN CONDITION. She does the same fucking thing regardless of her alignment, so it's not a fucking tell! What other response are you expecting? Should town-mala go "oh right my bad i'm scum?!?"

you're assuming Egg didn't stop to consider that people might actually make actual *arguments* in order to back up what lynch they want. why? how the fuck do you think he thinks mafia is played?

Are you just incapable of arguing in good faith? I'm assuming Egg didn't stop to consider EVERY POSSIBLE ARGUMENT THAT ANYONE COULD EVER MAKE, yeah.

and you're also assuming Egg "looking like town" is more important than outright saving his scum partner Thor, when he had basically no reason to hammer. again, why?

So Egg doesn't hammer. Thor has claimed hider, and gets lynched at massclaim or the first time one of his faked results fucks up. His death is inevitable, and when it happens, nobody is going to go back and see who prevented his day1 lynch for no reason?

I generally feel your reasoning here relies on the assumption that Egg is a shit player as scum who doesn't think. /shrug

I feel like your reasoning relies on the assumption that Egg is a great player as scum who would never make a mistake, but a shit player as town. One of those is a goofy fucking stretch.

[sthar8]

I'm here, just incredibly frustrated.

I'll compromise on a mala vote if it means pie's not in crazy tunnel land tomorrow.

I guess that's intent.

[sthar8]

I'll compromise on a mala vote if it means pie's not in crazy tunnel land tomorrow.

if Mala flips town, I'm more than happy to step back and reevaluate

I'm very very cautious about strong arming reads in games where I've been proven to be wrong. plus the only reason I really pushed so hard today was bc I feel really really strongly about this (and I don't have any other scum reads I feel strongly about).

What? 'Any case that isn't mine is stupid, and I will justify that with mindblowing leaps of badlogic and shoutlouder' is really annoying to play with, and it's making me doubt my townread on you and challenging my ability to engage with the game. Tell mastin that you're channeling her from Sabotage and she can tell you how that worked out.

I fucking

hope

you're right, but don't think this is anything but 'go along with pie so she stops being such a pain in the ass.'

[sthar8]

Honestly, it would be p cool if bins caught up first. but we do need a claim.

[sthar8]

@sthar8 - It looks unlikely Egg will be todays lynch.. which between Mala and Delta would you feel is most likely to be scum?

Delta. I was absolutely planning on voting mala to shut pie up.

I feel like this was pretty clear in my posts.

like, super fucking clear.

I need to review the mala claim. i believe the role in the setup, but i gotta check the play.

[sthar8]

OK. I wanna see Egg and DW's reactions to the claim before I out my own conclusions.

[sthar8]

I can think of two.

[sthar8]

town blocking role thinking mala is scum or a second town protective targeting you.

p-edit dont let pie hear that. scum can't make mistakes, remember

[sthar8]

Town blocking role is a bit tough to believe (but should definitely claim if it exists).

logic me through the parenthetical please.

[sthar8]

For fucks sake

[sthar8]

Sthar, walk me through your thought process. Are you for some reason assuming we have either two protective roles or a town RB+bodyguard? Because one of Mala and Jason being scum seems more likely to me.

how about you learn to read instead?

[sthar8]

also, if you're a town roleblocker and blocked Mala, claim. tia

FUCKING WHY SKREW AND I JSUT HAD THIS CONVERSATION ARE YOU EVEN READING HTE FUCKING GAMR

[sthar8]

you know what pie? fuck you.

i'm really fucking sick of 'i'm just right, sheep me, you're all stupid'

i am NOT claiming if I am the roleblocker, because I'm NOT wasting town utility on a TESTABLE ROLE.

[sthar8]

call it what it is: blindingly stupid and antitown

[sthar8]

so unnecessarily outing town utility is a protown, intelligent thing to do?

[sthar8]

like, the net loss on this is so fucking trivial

[sthar8]

stuck on what? use your brain

WCS is that we have the same conversation tomorrow...

[sthar8]

also how does claiming the roleblock make mala town? are you high?

[sthar8]

so being able to confirm her claim LATER makes her likely town?

[sthar8]

like, why the fuck would we need a claim for that?

[sthar8]

well her argument with me for the whole last day phase has been 'shut up you're stupid'

so why is it not okay for me to call her play bad?

[sthar8]

all day every response to me has been a horse laugh or argument by assertion, which is really fucking insulting to the PERSON.

and one time i say wow your idea is stupid, which insults the PLAY, and i'm 'abusive and defensive' and 'whoa there's no need to insult her'

[sthar8]

i dont even fucking care right now. Egg's last two posts are transcendentally scummy, and pie's reaction to a roleclaim was 'WE SHOULD OUT MORE PPL!!!!'

what i really want to do right now is vote myself and tell you all to go to hell, so i'm gonna walk away foor a bit.

[sthar8]

That's a hell of a lot more than one time. You have been overly defensive when questioned today, and openly abusive on anyone who dares disagree with you.

So I will ask you, why so defensive today?

the first two things you quoted are me responding to an argument in kind, and I wasn't the one who escalated it.

the third was a repeated question that i had already explicitly answered. which is... frustrating.

four was a flippant response to an obviously scummy strawman argument founded in ignoring context.

and the rest of them are all me responding to pie's obviously bad, obviously antitown plan. Where she's inexplicably ignoring the relevant discussion in the thread and her counterargument is 'because i said so.'

Am I being abrasive? yeah, and I'm justified. insulting? no more than you're being to me. defensive? I think you need to look that word up.

[sthar8]

VOTE: mala works for me

pie, you can't say that you don't care what my opinion is and then tell me to not feel like you're ignoring me. And I'm terrified that we're going into tomorrow with you having basically no scumreads but still not agreeing to reexamine your play even if you're right.

[sthar8]

FCBD yesterday, bloomsday today. I'll try to be caught up by tonight.

[sthar8]

Hey guys, here's a thought:

You are all terrible for having a gameday in which not every player got to post. That is how scum wins this game. Try to be less terrible.

@jason I'm not sure how any reasonable reading of that post concludes that STD was blocking you. Not buying the RB claim.. that means you thought STD was the last scum, right?

[sthar8]

Yeah I still wanna lynch egg.

lets work through the jason bit first though.

[sthar8]

How did you reconcile STD claiming something that produces innocent results with like a billion mislynches remaining?

[sthar8]

He protected pie N1.

[sthar8]

Hmm. Looks like jason hasn't claimed his most recent night action.

UNVOTE: jason

Probably won't make any difference, but I'm willing to wait for him to do that.

Given your theories, why does this matter?

[sthar8]

@pie how do you feel about this? I find it compelling.

we're having a disagreement on the last scum. I think Boon, mastin says SK. I don't really think jason is scum here, but I wanna reread/think about it more.

pie, show mastin this quote:

I'm an X-shot Vig. I tried shooting N1 on SK failed because I was RB'd.

I'm guessing that Mala really did target SK night 1; she targetted SK with her rolecop ability. No sense in her lying about her target; there could be a tracker who could catch her in that lie.

Even ignoring my certainty that jason is scum, I'm fairly sure SK is town.

[sthar8]

You disagree that you're town? Or would you like to expand that post a little.

[sthar8]

VOTE: Egg

Dammit pie. I don't want to do setup balance yet. You're also wrong about quantity of roles being a factor, but you reached the right conclusion.

[sthar8]

that would be buddying. but whatever.


Why is it scummy when TH calls you town but not when Pie or I do it?

[sthar8]

I'll write up the list AGAIN in like half an hour.

Read his celebratory posts on jason's wagon today for the most recent installment.

[sthar8]

I'm sorry, I'm dealing with a family crisis tonight.

Sorry for being harsh boon, I didn't mean for it to come off that way. I corrected you so that in the future it will be easier to get your point across, but I certainly could have been nicer about it.

I was actually confused when you said he was White Knighting you because Pie did a whole lot more to make you a nonviable lynch.

So do you think TH is buddying you or pie?

[sthar8]

Given that the scum are killing around the body guarding of pie

Wait, what? I'm not getting that at all.

[sthar8]

clearly, what I actually wanted when I asked for you to explain your position was simply for you to repeat yourself in a more condescending manner. Well played.

Let's try it this way: I think you're town, and I'm concerned that by holding a position that was clearly supported only by a haze of paint fumes in a paper bag you're signalling your intent to be similarly terrible for the remainder of the game.

[sthar8]

how common is it for scum to be provided with safeclaims in a normal game? I know it is often necessary in themed games, but what about normals? Would it be normal for the mod to tell the scum "there are no doctor-type roles in the game", so that scum can safely claim a doctor-type role? If not, then that greatly lowers jason/Zach's chances of being scum.

That is usually a role, not a game mechanic. Every time I've encountered it, it's been called "Informed" and I do not believe it is normal.

I am of the opinion, in case it weren't obvious, that Zach is town for balance reasons.

That Egg post is terrible and opportunistic and scummy and awful.

Egg's posts all day have been this way.

I think that might be for the best.

No, you've just announced optimal scum strategy there. We don't need a massclaim; we need anybody who wants to counterclaim you to do so. If nobody does, you're functionally conftown.

I'm going to iso Egg and pull some quotes to exemplify my feelings.

[sthar8]

Before someone calls me out on it, I'm cherrypicking posts as evidence. There are more examples of all of these, and if you can't find them I can help you out.

Let's start at the very beginning, a very good place to start:

Mala, what is your read on Thor?

This is cute. Scum are always more careful about how they interact with their partners. This reads as forced interaction with both of them, and forcing them to interact with each other. Not strong.

Pie can be town, but misguided I think on the Thor vote. I'm not exactly strong town reading Thor, but his style isn't really "work to solve the game". It's more "Guys, I solved the game early Day 1. Now follow me or you're dumb". And that's exactly what he's doing here. Well, to an extent. To be fair, he doesn't seem to be looking for the support the way he normally does and that's the one thing that stands out to me about his play.

Egg's day1 play was very hedgy. Not the 'I dunno what's going on' hedgy, but the 'I'm not sure I want this opinion on record' kind. Here, it's specifically 'hey pie lets be friends, but leave my buddy thor alone. unless he flips, then there was something weird about that guy all along.'

STD, I never said you were a shitty player. Hell, I really don't think you are. At all. Not sure what gives you that impression either. Either I said something that was taken a way that I didn't mean for it to be taken, or that is just AtE. Also, Thor isn't the only player in this game day that you've pulled the "I'm ending this conversation" card on.

This one is quite good. Egg was pushing the whole 'lets frustrate the hell out of STD and see if it turns him into a viable wagon' angle. He comes in with not-quite-conciliatory statements, puts the blame on STD in a very gaslit fashion, and then drops a couple inflammatory assertions. This is what convinced me on Thor, the emotional manipulation. Egg's playing the shill and they're trying to work STD over.

We need a flashwagon. Everyone not voting needs to change this immediately. If people don't like Boon for today, I'll compromise but this is where I want us to lynch.

Note this is a flashwagon anywhere but Thor.

Fenchurch, the mala vote kind of sucks right now. We are in a deadline compromise situation and mala has no other votes if I'm not mistaken.

Or mala, apparently.

Sleepykrew, Day 1 no lynches basically makes Day 2 a second Day 1 but with a dead town player in damn near every game where it happens. Do you disagree? Also, Cheet wants to know why Mala isn't in your lynch pool.

There's quite a bit of Egg arguing irrelevant theory like this. Also, I want to point out that my only major hesitation on Egg is that he was happy to push mala day2. I find it hard to believe that someone who had just lost one buddy would be willing to drive the bus over the second one immediately. That is, unless they felt like she was going down regardless and he needed to get some cred off it while he could. Maybe getting roleblocked rattled her?

Honestly, that looks like a better "Boon is scum" case than "Boon and mala could be buddies" case. It doesn't really change my mind on anything.

But he did spend Day2 trying to get everyone

else

to give him a reason not to vote mala.

I wanna vote Bins, but six players still need to post

"I wanna vote Bins, but it would look better if someone else pushed it"

I mean.

STD was the obvious protect and the obvious kill. If you are town, scum probably felt ok killing him because you'd die and we'd lose a power role either way.

OR

You are scum. But would you really kill the guy you're supposed to be protecting? I think yes. Because if he blocks you, it could be incriminating (maybe not because of what we just went through with Bins but still risky). If he blocks someone else, we have confirmed town running around.

I dunno. Lemme do some rereading.

'Can we ignore the fact that jason is an uncountered protective claim and lynch him anyway?'

Do you disagree? I mean if Jason was getting emotional as a town bodyguard, one successful protect results in his death anyway or one correct lynch ends the game. I don't see any reason why a town bodyguard would resort to swapping out over getting emotional.

'Jason is a robot, and everything he does is scummy. please lynch him'

[sthar8]

Sthar, since Sleepykrew refuses to explain, I can't wait to see where I've been opportunistic today. Jason was really the only person I've pushed today that I can recall.

If anyone can't see it, Egg is basically grasping for anything that will buy a Zach lynch right now no matter how irrelevant. This is an important lynch for scum, since it eliminates town utility if they manage it. Also, a bodyguard will interfere with the optimal use of their kill; best if that goes away in the day phase.

Can you explain to me how Zach is basically confirmed town?

He's an un-cc'd protective. He potentially has utility still, so he doesn't get considered until the day before lylo. The BCS EV for him being town overwhelmingly outweighs the WCS EV for him being scum. We have no reason not to play carefully and correctly; that is the only way we lose from this position.

[sthar8]

(I'm not counting sthar here, who fought against Mala's lynch until right before she claimed.)

You are either not reading the thread, you are misremembering facts, or you are misrepresenting them to create a narrative.

I hope you have

something

else and you just didn't vote me over you being factually wrong...

@pie- Do you have any kind of case on Skrew other than 'I have a townread on everyone else?' Because your townread on Egg is silly. 'I don't care to read anyone else's posts' is not a convincing case, sorry.

Sthar, I love how I went from idiot scum who unnecessarily bussed Thor at the last second to evil genious scum.

Horse Laugh. Can we lynch this please?

[sthar8]

Pie's reads have been pretty solid this game. Just sayin'

Pie's reads have been pretty solid this game. Just sayin'

So you want to lynch Skrew? If not, go ahead and fuck off.

(I'm not counting sthar here, who fought against Mala's lynch until right before she claimed.)

You are either not reading the thread, you are misremembering facts, or you are misrepresenting them to create a narrative.

You were pushing to lynch either Delta or Egg during day 2. Here's the first post I could find where you gave even a hint that you might be willing to vote mala:

I'm here, just incredibly frustrated.

I'll compromise on a mala vote if it means pie's not in crazy tunnel land tomorrow.

I guess that's intent.

And by that point, mala already had 4 votes, with me signaling that I would be a fifth. I think that's enough to say that you weren't bussing your scummate, if you are scum.

If there were any earlier posts that I didn't see, go ahead and point them out.

Pushing a different lynch =/= fighting mala's. Especially since I'm pretty sure I was pushing

the other scum lynch

. And when I decided I was ready to hammer and be done with that shit, Delta was still a viable wagon. So it's not like I didn't have options.

[sthar8]

1. Mala targeted <someone> with rolecop on N1.
2. Mala receives: no result
3. Mala knows she was RB'ed.
4. RB'ed actions don't show up on tracker or watcher reports.

5. Mala knows she wouldn't have shown up on any tracker or watcher reports N1.

6. thus, Mala can just make up whoever target she wants knowing she can't get called on it

bolded the bad link in the chain.

mala got caught on her fakeclaim because she claimed something untrue according to the wiki. Assuming that she checked role interactions is not safe.

I realized, however, that she was trying to get town power to claim and get value out of her death, so she might have lied about her target to try to force the tracker claim if any existed. So my conclusion is the same.

[sthar8]

Why not?

[sthar8]

Yes just repeat yourself. That will help me understand.

[sthar8]

I mean, it's not like I explained my reasoning or anything. Why should I expect the same out of you.

[sthar8]

Oh, clearly the use of the word 'fucking' makes your assertion more true. Is that it?

[sthar8]

mala got caught on her fakeclaim because she claimed something untrue according to the wiki. Assuming that she checked role interactions is not safe.

Assuming. That she knew. The interactions of a roleblocker. is not. safe.

[sthar8]

FOR FUCKS SAKE PIE.

SHE DIDNT KNOW THE RB INTERACTIONS OF HER CLAIM

AND WE LYNCHED HER FOR IT

THAT IS SOLID EVIDENCE

THAT SHE DIDNT

LOOK UP ROLEBLOCKER

ON THE WIKI

[sthar8]

There's no fucking evidence. pie's just gonna do that incredibly awful 'bind myself for you' crap again and try to push the whole thing on assertion. I think we're all just here to be an audience for her.

[sthar8]

Pie, go ahead and tell me what your reservations are on Egg. If I were ignoring everything you say, I certainly wouldn't be getting as frustrated as I have.

[sthar8]

but not that x-shots wouldn't get refunds, as it's a recent change.

Really? Has anyone ever encountered a game in which a RB-d power got their shot back? I thought they were about the same level of logical.

I don't really think this is scummy. a lot of the time, this just ends up being a coincidence more than anything (similar to what I said earlier in the game about someone ignoring scum never seems to actually make it more likely they're scum with them). off the top of my head, I know Micc did something similar near game start and was town - it's not exactly the same, but there's still him having a few vague thoughts but not having a read either way.

It's not that the thoughts are vague and the read isn't there, it's how formulaic it is. He had a ton of 'here's a reason i think they're scum, here's a reason I think they're town.' I could see that indecision coming up a little, but he had that on a bunch of different players. I think he was trying to play both sides of the field in case of future flips.

with this point, I still don't really understand what exactly you think he was trying to do. what scum would put all the effort into saving their partner - and then, when deadline hits and their partner isn't getting lynched, go "fuck it" and hammer him anyway?

It fits with the hammer being a frustration move. He tried all the subtle ways to move the wagon, bringing in new suspects, trying for a flashwagon, waving about deadline paranoia. Then town still didn't move, and he's stuck having been a big detractor from a scumwagon that was either going to go through then, or be the obvious wagon the next day. If we no-lynched and hit thor the next day, everybody knows he was around at deadline and refused to hammer, coupled with trying to derail the wagon earlier.

I personally think Egg has done a fair amount of scum hunting so far, although you probably disagree.

yeah

it makes equally as much sense IMO that this is coming from town-Egg thinking Boon is scum trying to convince me to join him on Boon, rather than scum-Egg searching for reasons to not vote his partner. I'm not sure what in here you think is explicitly more likely to come from scum than town in this position.

That's possible, but to me it reads like "give me any reason to not vote mala, and I will jump on it.

I think the push on jason actually looks town, for behavioral reasons explained in my recent posts.

My opinion is the opposite. Jason-lynch would be a huge victory for scum. If it were me I would never have let up on a PR mistake here. It's easy to justify and the value is huge compared to the risk.

and you have to admit that despite thinking Egg is scum, there is a *lot* of suspicion on him right now - you, I to some extent was thinking Egg might be scum although I'm rapidly being convinced it's just SK, and most of the people off the wagon would likely vote there - so he would be a very easy target to push *if* he is town here.

Sure. If egg were town being the key assumption here.

[sthar8]

I'm having a hard time reconciling 'survivalist game' with 'lurking through his own wagon.'

[sthar8]

oh right btw EGG
I can never remember what a toxx clause is.

A stupid problem that stupid people have. The theory revolves around everyone in the game being 10.

I'm reading Skrew's stuff now, but I'm mobile today.

[sthar8]

Your progression baffles me.

Egg is still the best lynch.

[sthar8]

i agree with massclaim, how do you want to determine the order?

[sthar8]

sure. do we vote on a list or popcorn?

[sthar8]

ebwop: i like popcorn

[sthar8]

Sthar goes first.

I am okay with this.

[sthar8]

I'm gonna be busy for a bit, but I'm happy to claim first since my claim should be obvious anyway. But first, I want everybody's opinions on massclaim and claim order. If you think it should be a list, say what you think the list should be please. Assuming we've all checked in, I'll plan on starting after games tonight.

[sthar8]

VT.

Egg, Delta, Boon, Pie would be my pick.

[sthar8]

I have not read anything, but I promise I will catch up today and tonight. The last 24 hours have been crazy, but everything should be back to normal.

[sthar8]

I would absolutely have no-killed, except that I'm pretty sure that Mala's claim was intended to out the roleblocker and succeeded. Why would they need to out him twice? What made it worth putting the game on the MYLO track?

idk I'm rereading and rethinking.

[sthar8]

STD unvoted immediately and asked how she knew she was roleblocked and not protected.

[sthar8]

Here, lemme find it.

[sthar8]

This series of posts was functionally a claim.

unvote

How do you know you were RB'd and your target wasn't protected?

Personally I think we should verify the vig claim rather than lynch it. I do have doubts but it's easy enough to check.

If there's a roleblocker involved, it's a town RB; there was no reason for scum to RB mala.

Pie, that is a disappointing course of action. It seems to me that outing a power role if it exists D2 seems like a bad idea when it is not necessary that we do so. It would neither confirm nor deny Mala's guilt, while her vigging would.

Especially strongarming a PR to claim, I don't see the point of that. I don't think everyone is of the opinion the town RB should claim, so everyone acknowledging your post doesn't preclude a town RB from being in the game.

[sthar8]

I'm trying to figure out why scum would leave STD alive if they had correctly figured out he was the RB on D2. given jason was a bogyguard and thus would (or rather, *should*) protect STD, I really do not think it would be worth it to no kill in that situation as opposed to shooting STD immediately - in other scenarios, it'd be worth it, but not when it'd get protected, I don't think. I'm not sure about this, though.

This.

UNLESS (tinfoil hat time) somebody decided to go all-in and gamble on outguessing jason

and

getting him lynched. I don't even want to think about the odds on that one, but it explains all the scum actions pointing to a high EV play. That makes me interested in the jason wagon, but I'm having a hard time reviewing the wagon movement since it apparently happened entirely between votecounts.

sthar, I can trust you, right? >.>

No? No shortcuts this game, you need to look at my play and decide if it's town or not. I'm a little disconcerted that nobody in thread is wondering why I was looking for town power roles.

I

think it should be obvious, but apparently nobody else was doing it, so...

[sthar8]

which jason wagon is this? I can go back and compile per-page VCs for it if you want. although if it's the one from D4, now that I look at it, it never got past one vote (Egg).

And Trojan. His vote only stuck for two posts, even though he had a couple of other posts declaring that he was hard set on lynching jason. And Delta was pushing hard for the action claims, although he might have been doing the same thing I was.

The wagon looks really good for boon, and I think nobody else.

[sthar8]

yeah that's why it's tinfoil. relies on scum deciding that jason was lynchable.

[sthar8]

sorry, had the boy all weekend then an 8-11 today. I'll be in tomorrow sometime.

[sthar8]

@Sthar - Get Antihero or TellTaleHeart to read me. If you are town, they'll surely see this as my town game.

Still waiting on this.

I want to lynch egg. Like, I desperately and carnally long to see his flip. I have been scumreading him literally all game. But nobody else has agreed with me, at all. So the other option is that I'm wrong, and scum is relying on me pushing a mislynch to get them out of a hole here.

So, I'm reexamining everything today looking for how scum win from here. The big focus is on the things I don't understand, those being Fen's death and the missed kill.

I'm sorry for dragging my feet, I just feel like we should have won this days ago and I don't want to fuck it up.

[sthar8]

But why not you on n1?

[sthar8]

But pie was already hard after mala, and had just lynched thor. Fen was poking me and you.

[sthar8]

@Sthar - Get Antihero or TellTaleHeart to read me. If you are town, they'll surely see this as my town game.

Still waiting on this.

Science twins update: TTH says she doesn't think you've ever been town in a game with her. Antihero agreed, then said you'd been town in a game with Heartless, then said you hadn't made much impression.

[sthar8]

I'll hammer if you don't. I'm getting yelled at in my PT for being a stubborn ass.

[sthar8]

actually, i have a keyboard briefly

VOTE: boon

[sthar8]

VOTE: no lynch is obviously correct.

also I'm v/LA until Monday.

[sthar8]

What is the benefit to a no lynch?

There is no nightchoice that doesn't give information to the town, and there is no negative consequence for a no-lynch. It's the safe, technically correct play and not taking it would be sloppy and bad.

[sthar8]

Put it this way: What do we

lose

by no lynching?

[sthar8]

Cool. No lynch, no more effort. I was right, Egg's scum.

[sthar8]

Unless we can all agree on who to lynch.

There is literally no reason to do this. On the .0000000001% chance you're faking, we should still be no lynching today.

[sthar8]

That's meaningless and empty rhetoric. Of course I don't: I'm not counterclaiming. If I'm town it's because I believe the claim, which makes Trojan confirmed and you scum. If I'm scum it's because I didn't think I could effectively counter Delta's claim (which I probably could have).

[sthar8]

Sthar:

I'm trying to figure out why scum would leave STD alive if they had correctly figured out he was the RB on D2. given jason was a bogyguard and thus would (or rather, *should*) protect STD, I really do not think it would be worth it to no kill in that situation as opposed to shooting STD immediately - in other scenarios, it'd be worth it, but not when it'd get protected, I don't think. I'm not sure about this, though.

This.

UNLESS (tinfoil hat time) somebody decided to go all-in and gamble on outguessing jason

and

getting him lynched. I don't even want to think about the odds on that one, but it explains all the scum actions pointing to a high EV play. That makes me interested in the jason wagon, but I'm having a hard time reviewing the wagon movement since it apparently happened entirely between votecounts.

sthar, I can trust you, right? >.>

No? No shortcuts this game, you need to look at my play and decide if it's town or not. I'm a little disconcerted that nobody in thread is wondering why

I was looking for town power roles.

I

think it should be obvious, but apparently nobody else was doing it, so...

Egg may not care about this anymore, but I still do. Please clarify. Why were you "looking for town power roles"?

So I could work out the game balance before massclaim. Figuring out the balance before everyone is claimed gives us an extra layer of threat to the scum. You can spot bad claims and behavior inconsistent with the setup without sacrificing the town night game. And then you can still massclaim for POE value, if you have to. Setup breaking is kind of my forte.

I was doing the same thing with Thor's claim on d1. His definite investigative didn't fit with what we knew about the setup and he was very clearly trying to out any other investigatives. By condemning him on the bad claim, we saved our power for later use. And then when Mala claimed, and pie wanted to out the RB, I was sure we could figure out the claim without STD hardclaiming, so I loudly refused pie's suggestion so there would be at least SOME uncertainty.

I've basically been playing the 'low scum information, high town information' game, and I'm surprised I haven't had to explain that before now, since it usually gets called out.

[sthar8]

So the current thought between you two is that I hardbussed one partner day 1, then let the other go down without a fight on day 2, then killed the only person with a solid townread on me heading into MYLO.

Seems solid.

[sthar8]

If I was a little more confident in my scumhunting abilities, I would agree with you. But I don't think I could handle the responsibility of casting the game-deciding vote. I want Delta to help me figure out who the last scum is. I think I want to lynch someone NOW, rather than waiting until tomorrow.

Do not lie to yourself here. You are the game deciding vote. Nobody gets lynched unless you're OK with it. Trust DW, work with him, figure it out. But it comes down to you, and for you to blindly sheep the other town to a loss in MYLO is just as much your fault as if you pick wrong. Get your head in the game and play; this is what you signed up for.

[sthar8]

The other option is that I screamed for a no lynch only to bus in the last minute before deadline, bussed again on Day 2, and killed Pie who was townreading me as well and could have even been set up as a paranoia lynch.

Pie wasn't townreading you, liar. You were here preferred lynch for today. This doesn't even take a whole lot of fact checking.

Also this is a blatant misrep of your situation:

 the only person with a solid townread on me

I was townreading you and was gonna have a hell of a time deciding between you and Trojan if Delta was killed (I was already pretty sure Delta was town due to Mala's actions). I also don't remember you being mentioned as a likely lynch or anything. If you do end up lynched, Delta's delayed claim is probably the reason for town's win. You were in pretty decent shape before that considering your buddies were lynched the first two days.

You're scum. Your townread on me was going away the moment we hit MYLO anyway. But even if you weren't, why would I kill pie over either of Delta or TH? If I kill one of them, pie helps me mislynch you for the win.

[sthar8]

Delta was also obvtown heading into today. You were pretty obvtown too.

[sthar8]

It is exceptionally frustrating that we had the game solved and you two have decided to go crazy paranoia

[sthar8]

then fought to protect the other partner by going hard after Delta on day 2,

Also what the fuck is this? I was pushing Egg day 2. Go fact check please.

[sthar8]

Delta was also obvtown heading into today. You were pretty obvtown too.

What? Me obvtown, after my idiotic rant against Delta yesterday? No way.

Besides, if you had looked at my voting patterns from earlier in the game, you might come to the conclusion that I am scum. I didn't vote for Thor until there was no other option for me, and I spent a lot of time saying "I think Mala is scum" while voting for Vyse during day 2.

Had Delta not cleared me, I wouldn't have been surprised at all if I was the final mislynch.

No because Egg was sooo much worse. Like, he's actually scummy and I've been trying to lynch him all game.

You on the other hand were the

fucking counterwagon to the day1 scumlynch

[sthar8]

Like, egg literally just lied about the gamestate to create a narrative. Is nobody concerned about that?

[sthar8]

I need to go meet with a school counselor and a parent. I'll be back later. In the meantime, you two need to sober the fuck up.

[sthar8]

Pie was the obvious nightkill choice, regardless of which one of us is scum. Total null tell.

Okay, we'll pick this up later, sthar.

UNLESS I'M THE SCUM.

If I'm the scum, delta and you are better NK's, because Pie was ready to lynch egg today. If I'm scum, I silenced the fastest and best route to victory in order to take an undecided and a player I argued with on day2 into MYLO.

[sthar8]

Sthar, Pie was town reading me for the entire game. Any possible scum read was probably more PoE than anything.

So fucking what? Pie spent literally all of yesterday saying scum was you or boon.

Spoiler: THIS IS WHY PIE DIED

I just want to make sure everyone is aware that the entire point of handling this game this way is that we can be 99% sure everyone besides {Boon, Egg} is town and not have to second guess it. k thx

UNVOTE: Egg
VOTE: DeltaWave

no don't do this please. Boon or Egg.

just over 1 day left

2 more votes on Boon plz

if we lynch Egg today, everyone needs to promise to lynch Boon tomorrow as opposed to going batshit insane and lynching someone like TH. it's just about 100% that TH is town here; it really is that simple. the only possibility for a loss is if DW is scum, but I don't even want to think about the possibility Mala would go insane and bus him on D2 for literally 0 reason at this point

meh

I want a Boon lynch over an Egg lynch at this point (and I'm fully expecting him to come in here and make a bunch of posts in response to this, but w/e). *if* he's town, I'll likely be dead and Egg should be the lynch tomorrow. TH is fucking town; do not lynch him under any circumstances. I get there's at least one person who's paranoid of him, but he's town here. I'd likely outright quit the game if he was scum.

I still don't know why Mala would push DW like she did here if she was scum. I'd still like to know if people have a potential explanation for this or if no one is saying anything just bc they don't have an explanation/agree with what I'm saying.

I don't really care; if you get lynched and you're town Egg is getting lynched tomorrow anyway.

I'm more concerned with making sure I'm not just completely fucking up one of my townreads atm.

eh

I really really think that everyone else has compelling reason to be town outside {Boon, Egg} (and I think Boon is more likely scum out of those two). I'm primarily searching for evidence that gives me strong cause to question my town reads outside of those 2 players and I really haven't seen it yet.

Egg is actually just lying about past gamestate to make me look lynchable. You know what's really funny about all this? Nobody's posted a reason for me to be scum. But if I am, then I've been playing a survival game from the middle of day 2. Go look through my posts. Find anywhere I've been concerned for survival, or keeping lynches open, or giving a shit about how anybody thinks about me. Any of those things that scum

needed

to be doing this game.

The case on Egg is there. And it's all still true.

[sthar8]

You, however, seem very aware of what Pie's views were. Just sayin'

Reading the thread is a scumtell -Egg 2015

[sthar8]

There's no reason I'd lie with it right in thread.

well you just did. gogo revisionism

[sthar8]

sthar: why did you choose to vote Boon yesterday, instead of Egg? That vote surprised me, considering you've suspected Egg all game.

because Anti and TTH were yelling at me in the team thread.

[sthar8]

sthar: I'm well aware that pie wanted to lynch Boon and Egg. But still, I have a hard time believing that you, as scum, would leave her alive.

Okay, let's say you shoot me, leaving pie alive. Then perhaps there's a no lynch. Then what? You kill Delta, and leave pie alive again? You've then put all your eggs in one basket; you know Egg isn't going to vote for pie, so you are hoping that pie doesn't change her read on Egg. (And she might well have changed her read, considering how surprised she would be to still be alive.)

I'm not buying it. You, as scum, would've preferred to be in the final 3 with Egg and either Delta or me. Then you would've had two people you could frame, instead of just one.

I still think the nightkill of pie is a null tell.

As scum, I leave pie alive and argue that there's no need to no lynch in mylo since we have a confirmed town. My eggs are all in one basket in any case; you and delta are both obvtown.

[sthar8]

Yeah because that's exactly what I said. For real though, you claimed Pie was killed for 180ing on me which would make me scum. In reality though, I didn't realize Pie had 180'd so your point is just plain wrong.

LYING. you were aware of the discussion:

Boon, saying that pushing your lynch if I was scum is the best move is BS. You and I are the clear 1v1 here and if I was scum I'm smart enough to realize I'd be dumb.

[sthar8]

VOTE: egg

[sthar8]

it's all you trojan. I can't see how you'd think it's me over egg given our track records and day 2, but I can't decide for you. If you have any questions pipe up.

[sthar8]

We put all our tokens on Antihero for town.

[sthar8]

egg, obviously.

[sthar8]

If you were scum in that situation, you should have been panicking; you should've been looking for someone to mislynch after we mislynch Boon. Thanks to my stupid rant against Delta, you had a golden opportunity to setup a final mislynch. And you didn't take it:

But trying to open the lynch pool there was suicide. If he jumps on you or Delta with pie hard townreading both, then he's that day's lynch because everyone knows that's what scum want. If he accepts pie's lynch list, he can kill pie and revise it later, like he's trying to do today.

As for the 'go ahead and lynch me' bit, it's a pretty standard WIFOM. Bookitty tried something similar in micro 398.