Tarot uPick II - GAME OVER

[Kamigami]

/confirm

[Kamigami]

hi guys.

This is kagami, will be doing the posting for us for day 1, unless otherwise specified.

There are subtleties in our role PM that lead me to think we know something about two players who are probably town.

The first person is someone who probably knows that there is a queen in the game. We're confident this person exists, though the description is potentially inaccurate.

The second person is someone who is associated with uncertainty that may go away in time. This person may not exist.

Response not required.

[Kamigami]

Hiya tammy, it's been a while since we played together last~

[Kamigami]

Yep, kagami-head is doing the posting for Day 1.

Keima-anime is excellent. I hope you watched the goddess arc, which is brilliant.

I think OT, PN, and KN are town. What do you think?

[Kamigami]

Which is nonsense?

[Kamigami]

I've learned a lot about gaiden since I foolishly shot him in the prior tarot game.

[Kamigami]

Not townreading Medea.

[Kamigami]

Yes, but I'm not really scumreading them either.

[Kamigami]

also guys make your alts less obvious

i thought i was wrong in my initial prediction of who luna is, but i'm most likely right again

Not obvious to me. Is Luna someone who would give me reason to question my townread on the slot?

[Kamigami]

Btw, it's surprisingly difficult to associate your new avatar with you.

[Kamigami]

This is a particularly bizarre deviation.

I have a 5 person townpile atm, waiting for FG to sign off on a new entry, where are you sitting?

[Kamigami]

Your wagon looks town-driven to me, pie.

[Kamigami]

Somewhat town-leany.

FG thinks the wagon should be allowed through, which is in part motivated by his distaste for your avatar. I think it seriously bothers him and you might want to switch it.

[Kamigami]

My sense is that there's a lack of viable alternative wagons, and that sort of gamestate tends to arise from quick pushes by town that put scum in an awkward position.

[Kamigami]

Doesn't really matter what the target's alignment is.

[Kamigami]

Imagine KN is scum and was quickly pushed by town.

What do scum do? If they try to establish a counter-wagon, it will probably be based on a terrible argument and it will be super incriminating if the lynch goes through. So they lurk or bus, but bussing also looks terrible.

Not a good reason for cold feet, but I'm hoping for good things from pie.

[Kamigami]

Somewhat town-leany.

Y

I don't really see anything that I strongly associate with his scumplay. I don't think your point is especially compelling, and it seems like his initial vote was to feel out something that he developed a stronger opinion on based on your response.

[Kamigami]

Scum benefit comes in the form of towncred, dearie.

Towncred for clearing 2 players? is that even worth it?

Probably only one, the second is very speculative.

[Kamigami]

Yes. That's based on an atypicality in our PM. Might mean nothing.

[Kamigami]

Shame, would rather it have been someone less obvtown.

[Kamigami]

6 pages down, 26 to go.

[Kamigami]

Gaiden, what are you thinking about the game atm?

[Kamigami]

If it were a post restriction, he'd just spoiler a bunch of quote walls and otherwise post normally.

It would also be among the most useless and obnoxious post restrictions ever devised.

[Kamigami]

It has actual content, though, just obfuscated in a kind of silly way.

[Kamigami]

Skim heavily, they really aren't bad posts.

[Kamigami]

Fluff is a person of interest if that's correct.

I'm also not crazy about muki regardless of wagon composition.

[Kamigami]

Fluff is a person of interest if that's correct.

I'm also not crazy about muki regardless of wagon composition.

Could be as simple as wisdom-scum. Who do you think makes sense as a theoretical wisdom-partner?

[Kamigami]

I'd like to hear a bit from farside.

[Kamigami]

What's your opinion of AJ, wisdom?

[Kamigami]

What?

[Kamigami]

Why is OUR fluff not being scumread by YOU.

Only YOU can prevent forest fires <3

I've played a lot of games since tarot I.

[Kamigami]

Kagami I want you and fakegod both to weigh in on this, by the way.

I see what you said, but I'm not sure what aspect you want me to weigh in on. The cabd part?

[Kamigami]

Corpse Bride, I.

MS sitcom upick

Off top of This supporty head's noggin

Forgot you were in those. I was pretty weakly scumreading you in those games, and stopped doing so by the end of the day. In any case, I don't think you're being cheeky scum.

[Kamigami]

Also, there's currently a hood with all members of a certain symbol.

The hood does not tell us who is in it, only warns of potential eavesdroppers.

The reason I am bringing this forwardi s I remember cabd saying that scum could have superjuiced roles depending on our symbols, and this very much feels like a way for scum to find out said symbols, and I'm not sure the best way to approach this.

Something to note: It opened sometime during the day. It wasn't open in pregame and didn't open automatically on gamestart.

Ok.

So what this suggests to me is that the eavesdropper is scum (which is worth keeping in mind) and thus that scum would now know the identity of every person with that symbol. I'm assuming by symbol here, you mean element, not suit.

This suggests to me that Cabd's belief that scum have powerful abilities that interact with specific elements is less likely to be correct, and also reduces the need for scum-cabd to fish for them.

That is, unless the eavesdropper doesn't know that the neighborhood is organized by element until you just said so.

I don't think it really speaks to Cabd's alignment. I'll tell you if FG has a different opinion.

[Kamigami]

Actually, neighborhood thing doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless the hood is all town with scum eavesdropper, or hood has scum and eavesdropper is town.

[Kamigami]

Not sure how useful this all is. I'm not sure why it means cabd is town, especially since your description suggests he wouldn't know about the mechanic back when he posted.

One thing that might be helpful: Does anything about the neighborhood imply whether or not scum have daytalk?

[Kamigami]

My personal theory re:elements that is just based on principles of good setup design is that every element probably has some mechanic attached to it as a minor perk.

The element you're talking about, for example, gets to be in a hood together. Other elements probably have similar things.

Cabd is still correct that it's probably not best to out elements. I could easily imagine things like "1-shot global roleblock for all people of a chosen element" being in the game. Something more severe, like an extra kill on element X, is less likely to my mind.

[Kamigami]

I think the implications about cabd's alignment will be more clear when we have a better idea about how elements are relevant.

[Kamigami]

In the meantime, I would like to have some content from cabd that can be evaluated now.

If he's too busy to post, then we'd love for PA to drive the hydra for a bit.

[Kamigami]

Eavesdropper is actually pretty interesting. The constituency of the neighborhood re:alignment is functionally random, assuming that cards -> element is deterministic. So given the neighborhood, why did ferry decide one of the roles should be an eavesdropper?

Unless there are multiple neighborhoods, 910 is probably correct.

[Kamigami]

Hey AJ, what is your opinion of Muki and Wisdom?

[Kamigami]

Tammy, we currently have WoF in the town-leany range. Do you think we should upgrade them?

[Kamigami]

re: nacho and ns.

You were asking about something earlier, tammy, that I was recently digging around about while thinking about WoF. It seems reasonably possible that OT decided to roleplay and that ns wanted to be lazy.

[Kamigami]

I'm sorely disappointed with the lack of commentary of Zelink's own posts. I was hoping for something fun when Zelink got to his own posts.

I think it's actually getting PL worthy. He going to start generating broken posts, and they already make posts later in the page unreadable on mobile.

[Kamigami]

VOTE: Kuroko

this wking is ridiculous

Why is he WKing rather than defending a buddy?

[Kamigami]

I don't really think much of it. I don't see any special scum motivation to it unless you think he's planning to lurk.

[Kamigami]

Luna's 1097 is reasonable. I'm not really sure why you're defending Muki; I'd much rather hear him defend himself.

[Kamigami]

Your stance on kuroko is pretty much that he's being terrible scum anyway.

[Kamigami]

Side note to ns: FG says he agrees with what I've posted and adds that optimal town play is not to post in the neighborhood at all since it's likely scum infiltrated regardless. I don't entirely agree with that.

[Kamigami]

do you see it as buddy defending?

I see it as sufficiently anomalous to have a hard time ascribing it to either possibility.

[Kamigami]

Considering the lack of an attempt of explaining why Kuroko is scum.

We're still fence-y, but there are meta reasons to think pie could be scum here. People are channeling that to varying extents.

[Kamigami]

Why do you think wisdom is town, ceph?

[Kamigami]

Why do you think wisdom is town, ceph?

I think wisdom is town?

To my mind, endorsing the KN wagon implies that you don't consider wisdom to be suspect, at the very least.

[Kamigami]

What did you learn from reading 43-53 and skimming 20-43?

[Kamigami]

1257 is a response to the revelation that zelink is, in fact, our very favorite muffin man.

[Kamigami]

There are a lot of townreads on AJ.

Can someone explain them?

Personally, I'm down for lynching Brantz or muki. AJ is a pocket scumread, which is looks like zmuff shares.

FG has a much larger list and is largely indifferent on who among them we lynch.

[Kamigami]

I don't have any objections with zmuff alignment-wise, but I'm also down to relive him of his onerous posting burden.

[Kamigami]

I don't really get into the anime music video thing. I don't even remember any of the to aru music. I mostly think of it as an anime about facepunching.

[Kamigami]

remind us what your reads are?

Not sure if this is directed at me.

Town
v

Luna
OT
NS-hydra
PN
Tammy (fo' realz)

Konowa

Idiocy, though I still want more farside

KN
Everyone else (it's a big group, yes)

Anen
AJ
Brantz
Muki

^
Votable

FG has a more liberal lynching pool that includes Everyone else and KN. Maybe idiocy too, he hasn't weighed in on that, but he's been pretty agnostic on just about everything.

[Kamigami]

Kagami, just FYI: I expect a reply to 1438.

Thanks!

I'm sure he'll oblige; I didn't even know he liked the To Arus.

[Kamigami]

I think I just liked the aggressive defense, even if I can see how it could be seen as strange.

Why Brantz? Isn't he just as lurky as every other lurkaderp?

I don't like that he popped in, asked to be questioned, and then didn't actually respond to my question.

Being directly asked things is usually lurk-a-durk town's favorite thing.

[Kamigami]

There's really nothing good about 1323

p-edit: Forgot about that.

[Kamigami]

I read one of their more offhand remarks as sufficiently non-offhand that I'm willing to give konowa a bye for a bit.

[Kamigami]

There's really nothing good about 1323

p-edit: Forgot about that.

typo: 1312

[Kamigami]

There's a difference between "nothing good" and "scummy".

In this usage, there isn't. The bigger issue is the lack of response anyway.

Which other lurkers do you think deserve attention?

[Kamigami]

and why is aj scum again?

I see his posting as generally making very easy statements, and his vote on kuroko is my least favorite.

[Kamigami]

what was wrong with his kuroko vote?

It's a terrible reason and an awful conclusion to a catch-up.

If you think kuroko is scum, do you think their wagon was all town?

[Kamigami]

Idk, recent conversation makes me think AJ is a better direction.

[Kamigami]

VOTE: BRantz

[Kamigami]

Setup-related, feel free to skip

Spoiler:

One thought I did have is that it might be worthwhile, if more than just a few people have "seeking" roles; to go ahead and see who is looking for who openly, on the assumption that town will gain more in a net "all success" scenario than scum. But I'm afraid that relies on people actively claiming if they're seeking or not, which creates the problem It's trying to prevent in the first place...

Spoiler:

I don't have support for this speculation.

The nature of the first person I mentioned in my first post is almost certainly related to a specific secondary card we received. It's probably not super common, and I don't think the nature of it is something that's going to be commonplace.

Our belief about the second person is outside the intent of the mod and unlikely to be reproduced in other players' roles.

[Kamigami]

What's the basis for the thought that a TvT can't be protracted and silly?

[Kamigami]

I don't really think brantz's re-entry is as super town as some people seem to think, but we support a PH wagon.

VOTE: Prohawk

[Kamigami]

I think aneninen was legitimately concerned that the fluff wagon went away.

[Kamigami]

I don't see any serious harm in revealing that a card exists. Your partner can just choose not to signal back to you if they'd feel compromised.

On another note Medea, I just noticed something that would influence my lynching strategy, have you seen it too?

[Kamigami]

VOTE: BRantz

[Kamigami]

Actually, I don't like this wagon's constituency

VOTE: Vedith

[Kamigami]

Yeah this way we actually get a lynch.

If you have something important to say, don't wait until too near deadline.

[Kamigami]

o, i see.

Is it voluntary lynchproofyness or day 1 specific?

[Kamigami]

Vedith.

We're going to attempt to lynch you if you're not clear on this.

There's absolutely no benefit to town if we lose a day, and there's no reason to be cagey.

What is the nature of your lynch immunity? This is something worth claiming in your first post.

[Kamigami]

We're not testing it if he gives a concrete answer.

[Kamigami]

If the setup is organized the way I think it is, there

has

to be someone who can test whatever he claims.

[Kamigami]

I think Wisdom knows what it is... The fact that he hasn't said yet is what actually tells me scum.
I really shouldn't give my role away, but if you try to lynch me it won't work. Just have that.

Flash wagon Wisdom?

No I won't have that, unless you have some amazing explanation for why it doesn't benefit town to reveal that aspect of your role.

[Kamigami]

Since when can a governor prevent his own lynch?

[Kamigami]

meh, UNVOTE:

[Kamigami]

Since when can a governor prevent his own lynch?

It says a lynch rather than any lynch but my own.

You should check with ferry, but I

highly

doubt you can target yourself, and that's typically understood.

[Kamigami]

Btw, if you govern

any

lynch that isn't an obvious scum quickhammer (and ika quickhammer isn't an "obvious scum quickhammer"), it's a scumclaim.

So don't do that if you're town.

[Kamigami]

Governor, as a role, is heavily biased toward being town-aligned.

It's also easily proven, without him even using it.

[Kamigami]

Given the game is role madness, and the way ferry seems to have designed role PMs, she's under a lot of pressure to put a lot of interesting roles in the game that don't really have a lot of utility. Governor is a great town role for that.

Scum governor, however, is a surprise-lylo role that has significant utility. I think it's much less likely that ferry made the decision to align a governor as scum rather than town.

[Kamigami]

Scum governor, however, is a surprise-lylo role that has significant utility. I think it's much less likely that ferry made the decision to align a governor as scum rather than town.

this seems no more likely to be true than false

Why do you think governor is null?

[Kamigami]

Your whole line of logic just didn't seem to be based on anything

Spoiler: kagami wasting too much time typing this

Ok, I'll try to get at it from a different angle.

Imagine you are ferry:

You want to give 21 players a role (or multiple roles, even) in a balanced game. You have to come up with a lot of roles.

Some of those roles only make sense to give to certain alignments, like cop, ninja, doctor, strongman, etc. So you give those to the appropriate alignments, and then you're left with a ton of townies who need roles and a couple scum who need them. You can't give the town all powerful roles, so you mostly want to give them low-utility (from an EV perspective) things like extra votes, neighborhoods, mailman, etc. Governor fits that for town, so it's very attractive to give town a governor. After all, you have a lot of town role slots to fill.

You could give scum a governor, sure. But you probably have only 5 scum, and they already have things like Ninja, Strongman, Godfather, probably a roleblocker, and probably some kind of investigative (rolecop, tracker, watcher). You might choose to fit the governor in there, but why would you do that when it's so attractive to give it to town? There are plenty of other quirky things to give scum that don't make the town feel cheated when they auto-lose a day earlier than they expected.

[Kamigami]

So you're kind of presupposing how the game is designed. Who's to say that she gave the scum a godfather/ninja/strongman at all? Maybe she did roles separate from alignments, or maybe she wanted to be less predictable. like I understand what you're saying I just don't agree with it

*Shrug*

Either way, not lynching vedith.

[Kamigami]

I don't really wanna vote BRantz. Do we have time for anything else?

Maybe we do? Who else were you thinking?

[Kamigami]

Kuroko, ika, klingon, Aneninen, pisskop, AJ? One of those probably, but I can't say I feel strongly about any of them

I had thought you liked AJ.

[Kamigami]

I had heard great things about bacde, am I right to feel underwhelmed?

[Kamigami]

VOTE: BRantz

[Kamigami]

is the kami hydra still here i wanted to talk to them too cus they are obv town

I'm around, but leaving the office very soon.

[Kamigami]

Kamigami I don't really have a read on. Normally the things that I townread from Kagami haven't shown up yet (or come close to showing up) and the role claim stuff seems pretty easily fakeable (in particular, I think the argument that Kagami wouldn't clear two townies as scum is weak because she wouldn't be clearing two townies as scum is a weak one to make), no real interesting town reads/scumreads/directions coming from the slot, just posts I'm not super hype about.

Kamigami I don't really have a read on. Normally the things that I townread from Kagami haven't shown up yet (or come close to showing up) and the role claim stuff seems pretty easily fakeable (in particular, I think the argument that Kagami wouldn't clear two townies as scum is weak because she wouldn't be clearing two townies as scum is a weak one to make), no real interesting town reads/scumreads/directions coming from the slot, just posts I'm not super hype about. Do you have any specific thoughts on their posting?

Why are you preparing read statements in your PT?

[Kamigami]

Well clearly he was pasting from something, but those aren't notes.

[Kamigami]

Everything is a kagami post. FG will post for us tomorrow.

[Kamigami]

o point. FG brought it up, so I asked about it.

[Kamigami]

GaidenBert, if you've got some reason to want to be run up, just come out with it.

We need time enough for brantz to claim, and what you're doing is a distraction.

[Kamigami]

What are your side cards, brants?

[Kamigami]

ISOing, hadn't even paid attention to his posts.

Not sure I want to lynch brantz today, Penguin's right.

Why?

The claim only increases the probability that he's scum, to my mind.

[Kamigami]

I think it was pretty town-ika.

me too.

[Kamigami]

I kind of didn't want to say it earlier for fear that it continues the trend, but I think that if Ika were scum, he'd rely on mala steering the hydra for the most part.

[Kamigami]

My role also says that other players abilities may change what I do during the game.

I want more clarification on this.

This part I believe.

The Tower represent catastrophic change and destruction. In the prior tarot Upick, I picked the tower, which was a one-shot vig.

It also had a clause similar to the one BRantz described, which was completely opaque to me. It turned out that I was enabled by garruk (card: The World). The possibility of losing the role seems to fit ferry's idea of the catastrophe and loss associated with the Tower in a mafia setting.

[Kamigami]

The protective aspects are the part that don't make sense.

[Kamigami]

There were no reverse positions or illuminating cards, it was a simpler 9p setup, but some aspects of it are clearly relevant here.

[Kamigami]

Decent matcherino here, especially on the illuminators.

[Kamigami]

Of note, anenen has yet to post a single good pidgeon picture.

Have you meta-dived aneninen?

[Kamigami]

I bothered googling it.

Upright: Disaster, upheaval, sudden change, revelation
Reversed:

Avoidance of disaster

, fear of change

Who said it didn't make sense with his role again?

He provided actual flavor, and ferry provided her reference source. Why are you googling random sites to defend brantz?

The only one of the four roles that is fitting is the jailkeeper. Doc and Tracker are especially nonsensical.

[Kamigami]

So I take it the flavor description of your card has nothing to do with your role, wisdom?

[Kamigami]

I don't think mine matches my flavor

You don't think?

[Kamigami]

Claim your result before you leave, Luna.

[Kamigami]

btw, this is FakeGod now.

[Kamigami]

I need to mention that I received a rather... exciting message last night.

[Kamigami]

I think Brantz pushing Wisdom/KN at the same time suggests that both Wis and KN are town.

I want to lynch in Brantz's null/void reads today. (his 1st read list, not the second)

[Kamigami]

ns, can you give me post-by-post summary of the neighborhood?

I think it would be pretty low-yield but Kagami

insists

that I request one, and I don't want to make her mad so

[Kamigami]

Town: Luna, Grandpa Oil, Tammy, WallofFire

Neutral:

Ika Zaru

, Medea,

Klingon

,

Pisskop

, Fluff, Zelink,

Idiocy

, Konowa

Scummy: Kuroko, Wisdom

People who others seem to have a much better read on that I need to iso (more to remind myself to do this than anything else): Kamigami, AJ, Perpetual Nonsense, ProHawk, Muki, Anein.

this is the first list. he has two tiers of null though (probably has scum in both)

So you think that Brantz knew who his partners were?

I think either Brantz knew who his partners were, or his partners knew of Brantz's identity, but not both.

I doubt that the latter is case and the anen flash wagon was some kind of heroic effort by the scum team to save their JOAT.

Which would be hilarious, but this game can't be that easy.

[Kamigami]

If we buy into the latter theory, then this post, the JOAT claim:

I am the Tower Reversed, Town JoaT. I have 4 1-shot abilities: Roleblock, Doctor, Tracker, Jailkeeper. My role also says that other players abilities may change what I do during the game.

becomes some kind of SOS call by Brantz, who is basically showing his entire hand to the scum team and asking them for help.

Scum team then obliges and tries to save him with a flash wagon.

[Kamigami]

I've had several questions come in today about flip information. Flips will reveal alignment and role name - the "You are a ...." sentence in your role PMs. In some cases, role names may suggest abilities, e.g., "4-Shot Jaywalker", and in other cases, they may not, e.g., "Left Handed Smoke Shifter".

Specific to the Day 1 flip, type of traitor is not revealed, nor are any abilities the role may or may not have possessed.

ffery isn't doing full flips.

[Kamigami]

yeah i dont recall a joat flip is this a slip my friends????????????

Please explain, tomato person.

Wis, stay out of this for a sec.

[Kamigami]

Go reread, and please explain your thought-process leading to your post I quoted in detail.

[Kamigami]

I see that once you had no one to buddy you in your argument, you back off immediately, bacde.

I have no idea what Brantz would have, but assuming that he was a naked traitor seems naive from a player's POV, and tasteless from a mod's POV.

[Kamigami]

Luna, I think Nacho/Syr was trolling, not rolefishing.

[Kamigami]

I'm sorting through Brantz's town list before we fully engage in his null/void zone.

I believe Luna is town by her claim, and I'm willing to gamble that this is Ceph's town game. (I'd expect more mastin if they drew scum I think) I have Nacho as nullish town for now, with the understanding that Nacho_scum would need to bus his buddies at some point in midgame if only due to BoP, but I'm not sure how to approach Tammy.

Is anyone on this playerlist able to reliably read her?

BROseidon once told me that Tammy is one of the players who obvtowns herself in games.

[Kamigami]

Ok. I like OT's aggressive townread on Tammy, and I will accept OT's Tammy townread for now.

Scum team then obliges and tries to save him with a flash wagon.

Unfortunately I don't really buy into that theory. You think the Anen wagon pioneers look bad?

I don't buy into that theory either. I don't think scum knew that Brantz was a traitor.

Rather, I think the reverse is true, where Brantz knew who the scum team were, but scum team had no idea who Brantz was. Hence, I think we should be using the reads list brantz gave out to guide our lynch, rather than looking at wagon compositions from yesterday.

Ika Zaru, Medea, Klingon, Pisskop, Zelink, Idiocy, Konowa, AJ, ProHawk, Muki, Anein is loosely where I'm looking at for lynch today. I'm reading ns's outing the neighborhood early as town-ish, and I think this is Gaiden's town game.

I'm kinda leaning away from Ika lynch, based on their claim, but it's technically a null claim, so still thinking over it.

[Kamigami]

I am busy for next 36 hrs or so.

[Kamigami]

I trust you to be able to accurately judge what's important or not, and I think this is going to be low-yield.

Kagami wants the whole thing though, so balance your laziness with angry Kagami.

[Kamigami]

For the reason I mentioned (Brantz attitutde towards KN vs Wis), I'm hesitant in supporting Wisdom wagon.

Vote: AJ

I can also do pisskop wagon.

[Kamigami]

words

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by me having lingering scum read against your slot, since I'm pretty obviously townhunting, and as opposed to scumhunting.

I divided the town into "acceptable lynch" group and "not acceptable lynch" group, and saw that your wagon is the largest wagon of the "acceptable lynch" group, and voted there.

[Kamigami]

Kagami has played with me and I think been decent at reading me, did you talk to her about me?

Of course.

She feels your d2 play is

awful

, but we have agreed to accept OT's townread on you for now.

[Kamigami]

Nacho knows he has my support in spirit! Or, well, will.

What about me?! Jerk.

Vote: AJ

I can also do pisskop wagon.

AJ is meh. Idiocy better. Pisskop I could do. Dunno how Nacho feels bout him.

Idiocy is also an acceptable play for today.

[Kamigami]

and why is aj scum again?

I see his posting as generally making very easy statements, and his vote on kuroko is my least favorite.

Idk, recent conversation makes me think AJ is a better direction.

Don't lie to me.

Try showing me my quote, instead of Kagami's.

Because I have not scumread you once in this game.

[Kamigami]

AJ, Hydra dissonance does not exist in this hydra. It's impossible. Only one person is in control of the hydra at any point. (Gaiden can confirm my hydra philosophy)

Whatever Kagami said or believed are her beliefs, and does not concern me. I have absolute, and more importantly, lone control over this slot until the end of this day phase.

Would you prefer that I make up a non-existent scum read on you on the spot?

Given your antagonistic behavior, I will be more than happy to oblige.

[Kamigami]

Why should I defend something someone else said?

Because we are in a hydra? Are we not allowed to have different opinions when playing as a hydra?

You're akin to asking me why I hate eating cake, when I never said I hate eating cake.

[Kamigami]

So you're saying that your other head has said absolutely nothing in your pt about it.

Kagami is happy that our current vote is on you, if that's what you were looking for.

[Kamigami]

I'm sure Kagami gave you reasons somewhere, AJ. Even if she has not, I don't really care to defend that position.

I have my vote on you because I support your lynch. I already gave out a list of people I would be willing to lynch, and I developed it in this thread for everyone's convenience, if you recall.

[Kamigami]

FG do you mind Us asking what are your general thoughts about Kuroko (pie hydra)? WE know you are not scumreading Them.

I was actually heavily scumreading KN d1, because I thought her desperate/exasperated d1 play seemed similar to her scum play in Touhou UPick 1.

I reversed the read after seeing the Brantz scumflip.

[Kamigami]

And why do I need your approval in which strategy I employ in this game?

I find townhunting to be fun and effective in role madness games.

[Kamigami]

The same reason I need your approval to be town? I don't, but it's perception.

Ok. You do not have my permission to live.

I hope that clears up any confusion between us.

[Kamigami]

re Tammy:

I don't think your play has been awful, because I have no idea how to read you in the first place.

But I do know that there are people on this site who can read you with high accuracy, so your play is obviously "crackable" in some fashion.

OT is apparently one of those people, and I have no reason to doubt their vouch for you, and as long as OT doesn't flip scum or some equivalent event occurs, I don't really see a problem with that approach.

You asked why I shouldn't interact with you and try to discern your alignment.

Only point in doing that would be if I believed I can read you better than OT can read you, or if I believed OT is scum.

In other words, it's pointless.

[Kamigami]

Because I'm a god.

[Kamigami]

But you can't support Idiocy?
Is there a reason you ignored a direct question, FakeGod?

I think you skipped my 3408.

[Kamigami]

Because there's nothing left for me to say.

[Kamigami]

I have a pretty good guess who sent me the message.

[Kamigami]

Vote: Idiocy

[Kamigami]

Unvote

Wisdom/Farside, can you please fully explain the mechanic you guys are talking about?

[Kamigami]

when one of us gets lynched/killed, we both get treestumped for the following day and then flip

I assume you guys don't know each other's alignment.

Do you guys have a PT of any kind together?

[Kamigami]

@kami no

And you said both of your alignments will be revealed a day late?

[Kamigami]

Wisdom, were you responsible for the lovers thing? (i.e. did you pick the target)

Farside, when did you receive the PM? (i.e. right at beginning of day 1, or few days in day 1, etc)

[Kamigami]

based on what farside is saying, it sounds like idiocy became lovers in d1, rather than starting the game as lovers.

Do you have any possible explanation for this, or maybe a hypothesis?

[Kamigami]

damn it ffery

[Kamigami]

You think ffery would use scum-town lover pair?

[Kamigami]

Scum-town lover pair creates a lot of problems (main one being that you are punishing town for lynching scum). There was also that one game ffery must have seen that had a scum-town lover pair that created a large shitstorm postgame.

Cabd was in that game iirc. I doubt ffery would use such a pairing here.

[Kamigami]

Wisdom/Farside, is the word "Lover" in your role name?

[Kamigami]

I never said you were fake claiming lovers? That would be ridiculous to fake claim, im saying you're scum AND a lover.

I don't think scum Wisdom would naked vote his lover scum buddy and put them at L-2, leave for 5 min, and then come back and claim lovers as an afterthought.

That would be akin to naked self-voting as scum.

[Kamigami]

Yeah, but if the wagon dissipates because of the lovers claim, then it makes a lot of sense

Then why didn't he claim lovers first before voting?

That doesn't make sense if he's trying to make the wagon go away via lovers claim.

[Kamigami]

Idiocy could have been hammered in the 5 min between Wisdom vote and lovers claim.

That's a risk without reward. Wisdom could have claimed and voted in the same post, and it would have still had the intended effect without the quick hammer risk.

[Kamigami]

Shoodly doo doo doooooo.

I see we need more peeps from dat Wisdom wagon. Move it! You too Kami.

Also, Pisskop, AJ, wanna go ahead and claim now to save me the trouble of making a wagon to put you at L-1?

I don't think ffery would use a scum-town lover pair.

I don't think wisdom and far are lying about being lovers.

Your thoughts?

[Kamigami]

Fine.

Let's go ahead and go wherever you're trying to go.

[Kamigami]

Vote: Idiocy

[Kamigami]

I went back and found that game I mentioned that had cabd in it.

ffery didn't seem appalled by it as much as cabd was, so I can see the crossed-alignment lovers happening.

[Kamigami]

The counterargument was that game I mentioned, but ffery didn't seem appalled by it as much as cabd was, so crossed alignment lovers are possible here.

[Kamigami]

With pisskop's vote and my vote, Idiocy is at L-2. Someone please hammer.

Farside has already told us that she will not claim at L-1, and will be using the tree-stump power to tell us her thoughts, so any further delay today is pointless.

No I won't be claiming at l-1.
I'll just post thoughts as a stump.

[Kamigami]

All votes on Wisdom should be moved to Idiocy anyways, since they are Lovers and lynching Idiocy is same as lynching Wisdom.

[Kamigami]

first

[Kamigami]

We appreciate the gift and will wear/consume/apply it in good health.

[Kamigami]

first

But that was the role I was born to play ;~;

VOTE: AJ

Pisskop is a good vote, AJ is not.

[Kamigami]

Hi Tammy, the

awful

in indents was a jab from FG at me, btw, not you.

[Kamigami]

The one thing I did think of it was it potentially meant mastina scum but I don't think she is.

She's not scum.

[Kamigami]

i didn't use an action last night.

Although i did get an annonymous message.
The message was trying to dissuade me from inspecting among a certain pool of players, one of those who just died, i don't know what to make of that, i wasn't planning on taking an action regardless after OT reminded me about the elements thingamajig (I wasn't around during the whole twilight so i couldn't reply back then)

Luna, klingon's statements about elements are almost certainly irrelevant to you.

You should really be using your action every night. Scum is going to kill you before any of your results are useful anyway, so may as well make that happen while there are still other players who are NK-worthy.

You're just giving them more flexibility and helping them avoid protection by waiting around.

[Kamigami]

btw, add AJ to that list. It's especially important you don't target him.

[Kamigami]

because he's a miller

[Kamigami]

K, going to work with the assumption that you were both town, then. Are you going to be a stump forever, or do you guys die at the end of the Day?

VC 2.10

Idiocy

(10):

Oil Tycoons, Wall of Fire

, Klingoncelt, Fluff Central,

Luna Fox

,

Wisdom

,

Kamigami

, Medea the Alien, Ika Zaru

Wisdom

(3): Perpetual Nonsense,

Vedith

, Kuroko Network, pisskop (moved to ^)

Klingoncelt

(1):

Idiocy

Aj The Epic

(1): ProHawk

pisskop

(1): Tammy

Not Voting

(3): Aneninen, Bacde,

Aj The Epic

PH, do you have a particularly compelling reason we should see medea as town?

I think klingon's weird element thing is specific to her own role, and that this would be obvious to her if she were scum.

ns/wis/ika, has aneninen posted in your neighborhood?

[Kamigami]

Also, whoever sent us the new gear is town or very dangerously gambiting scum.

[Kamigami]

Yeah, he has been posting there.

Since D1? He should have been in there, but no one mentioned him.

[Kamigami]

ok. That potentially explains something.

I'm sad that I never got a transcript, but w/e.

[Kamigami]

We rolecopped him last night. He has a two-word role name, the second of which is "Miller."

We Sane-copped WoF N1, yielding town. (This is why I speculated person number two in my opening post, btw. Our cop shot is explicitly Sane, which is an unusual choice of verbiage)

p-edit: You should have claimed in your opening post, AJ. You're lucky things worked out like this.

[Kamigami]

Wasting a cop shot on us tho

Alternative targets were AJ and zmm. Of the three, you were definitely the best.

[Kamigami]

@:Kamigami: So in your opinion, should i cop WoF to test my sanity?
@AJ: yes, you should've claimed Miller, Miller's pretty much an inno for role cops.

Well at least now we got 2 conf town (Well 3 but OT is kinda stumped)

No, you goofball~

You investigate two people of unknown alignment. Preferably null-townleany. You report you results (same alignment, or different alignment). We interpret the results, which will probably net two innos or a scum and an inno.

[Kamigami]

No, you were lovers with scum. And you werent a townead yourself. What a copout.

You think wisdom is scum, and supported his lover's lynch?

[Kamigami]

I'm not looking for scum on the wagon. Assuming wis and farside town, which farside's post suggests is pretty likely, scum didn't really care where they were.

I expect an even-ish distribution, with a bias toward being on neither wagon.

[Kamigami]

What did you learn from your meta-dive, Cabd?

[Kamigami]

Ika, is it correct to say that you're something like a Dreaming God?

[Kamigami]

So given that your night activities are functionally random, is there any reason not to claim them?

Are you the reason we gained an element N1?

[Kamigami]

pisskop, if you're town, you should probably start talking about who you think is scum and why.

[Kamigami]

its not 100% random i get chose what card each night but the affect is random unless thats what your saying.

and yes im the reaosn why everonys elements has changed that night.

Ok, so is it useful to hide what you did last night?

[Kamigami]

what's the point of me posting? You're not listening to me anyway

You know my reads, have fun

I don't know your reads. What are they, other than klingon scum?

[Kamigami]

traitor meta.

[Kamigami]

Kamigami, explain yourself. What the absolute fuck has you convinced that a miller rolecop even remotely points toward town with shit like the above?

I don't think ferry would make a scum miller, and I'd be very upset if she thought that was an appropriate thing to do. I understand she comes from a realm where GFs are accepted, but a rolecop GF implemented in this way is ridiculous.

I agree that AJ's handling of it is terrible, and he's been one of my favorite lynches all the way until we got the result. His handling of it is also terrible, if not worse, as scum though, where he'd have the assistance of his team telling him "haha, you have the most broken role ever. Claim miller in your first post, you'll draw a rolecop if it exists, and we'll win the game before it even begins."

[Kamigami]

A rolecop-GF that is guaranteed to be activated by competent scum while also protecting that scum from standard cops is not "clever."

It's just as clever as GiF's two-scum neighborhood.

[Kamigami]

potentially relevant:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=62133

[Kamigami]

In which mini game did ferry discuss a scum miller?

[Kamigami]

Mini 1699, I brought it up as a potential role when we had a claimed/dead rolecop and a claimed miller.

O, the swag wars everyone is talking about. Somehow missed that.

[Kamigami]

VOTE: ika zaru

[Kamigami]

Our cop shot was explicitly Sane, bert. That's why we anticipated the possibility of a sanity-not-guaranteed cop.

[Kamigami]

Your sanity is uncertain because it's based on which element you are versus the element of whomever you cop. For example, let's say your element is currently Fire. By the chart you will get correct results if you examine someone who is of element Air, false results if you examine someone of Water, and either no result or an unknown result (i.e. you can't know either way) if you investigate Earth. I don't know what happens if you investigate Fire, but odds are you get a sane result if you investigate them as you're the same element.

I would be ok with this if Klin was the only one with this info in her role PM and that was the purpose of including it, but alas, she's not, it's entirely possible this elemental rock paper scissors only affect those with that in their role PM? do you disagree?

Who else has this information?

Someone else in our neighborhood.

This is news to me o.o

[Kamigami]

As far as I'm aware, there's absolutely no reason to think kling's element craziness is in any way applicable to anyone else, and it would be borderline bastard if, for example, our cop shot had been insane or failed because of a mechanic that we could potentially have never known about.

[Kamigami]

Luna is correct, pisskop claimed to have an element-effectivity warning.

Outing it because it's pisskop, and it's worth discussing out here.

Still don't think it affects people who don't specifically have such a warning.