Micro 618 {Over}

[JaeReed]

Confirming I know my role and alignment :p

[JaeReed]

VOTE: Chip Butty

for potentially carnivorous and to be honest, I have a hunch that BulletNLynchproof is town.

~ Realeo

You're voting me for "potentially carnivorous"? Have you looked at your scumbuddy MURDERCAT'S avatar?

Alright! Now that the other hydra has posted I'm gonna clutter up the thread! Sorry to everyone who thought I wouldn't be spamming and wallposting this game <3

Chip, does this mean you are scumreading Murder? If so, why? If not, why did you make this comment?

[JaeReed]

VOTE: Chip Butty

for potentially carnivorous and to be honest, I have a hunch that BulletNLynchproof is town.

~ Realeo

You're voting me for "potentially carnivorous"? Have you looked at your scumbuddy MURDERCAT'S avatar?

Also, did you mean to tie your vote on me to your hunch about BNLP? And is your hunch based on his superior math skills? As far as I know, that's NAI.

@Sick head: It's the weekend, dawg. Chill. Discussion will pick up once people are in a position to steal from their employers by playing at woork.

I can also support the motion for Mafiascum PTs.

I want to scumread this for not being game related... but I can say the same for Charloux and karnos. And we have two non-posters -.-

This is not really a reason to scumread him imo, but with that said! I am scumreading him for other reasons.

VOTE: BTD

[JaeReed]

I hate fucking up my quotes :/

Unfortunately, I cannot delete quotes, even phantom quotes, as that would be overstepping my boundaries as a moderator.

Which of you is Ariadne, btw?

[JaeReed]

I just want to clarify, and I know SOMEONE will jump on me for this, but it is a genuine question about the mechanics:

If werevolves have no factional NK, and only kill Town through lynching and vengekill resulting from lynching, can't Town actually peacefully co-exist with werewolves indefinitely, as long as we never lynch? I mean, with no NK, they pose no threat to Town unless we lynch.

He was dumb to begin with... But if BNL didn't start the voting we could've coexisted...

"If no majority exists, the player with the highest vote total is lynched. In a tie, it's whoever held the highest vote total prior to the tie"

If nobody votes, there is never a majority, so Ranger either has to kill all of us or nobody
VOTE: BNL for being a warmonger

These are townleans for me. As far as Charl's posting, the joking didn't sound forced and was pretty much exactly what I expected from him.
Chip follows the pre-emptive frustration that someone will jump on him for a mechanics question. In and of itself it's not alignment indicative, but I liked the tone for town.
Nahdia hydra so far has been pretty much on my line of thinking which means I like them for town as well.

Also, wouldn't not voting in order to co-exist be playing against win con?

[JaeReed]

The spam from BTD at the beginning of page 2 rubbed me the wrong way for a number of reasons. I liked Chip's response to it, but I'm voting for the RVS vote itself pinging me as scummy moreso than the rest of the spam.

I liked Realeo's entrance, but disliked Sick deliberately being overly reachy with the vote reasoning on Chip. Also disliked the whole hunch on BNL being town thing, but I am assuming that is linked to some kind of thought process that the person wagon'ed in RVS is usually town? If that's the case, I disagree, but it's not a scummy thing to say. Sick I've noticed looks scummy to me in general when I spectate games so /shrug. We'll see how that goes. I didn't much like 47 since it's defending the other head but ehh. I can't see motivation there either way other than just story time.

I liked BNL's 48 for town.

Oh and Chip? The reason I replaced out of Trees now that I can talk about it is because of Open 640. I saw your RVS banter with Kappy and realized I was going to tunnel tf out of you because I somehow got that in my mind that you were his scumbuddy despite previously stating that you would have had to have reverse the whole bus station over him. Talk about reading into things too much...

[JaeReed]

IMO scum usually seem more confortable and laid back... so the joking could go either way as a scum or town lean, just depends on the person... meta-ing him now...

My experience for this is based on newbscum. They tend to try to joke and come off incredibly forced. It's not the joking itself, but how natural it feels to me.

Also worth noting. Chip plays with a persona that tends to look scummy to me. The fact that he's a townlean could mean something. Or it could mean nothing.

What do you think about Murder trying to direct conversation towards BTD in 72?

[JaeReed]

Can we wagon BTD please? I'm not comfortable with a townread of mine running up time as the highest wagon while BTD is looking scummy and laying low content-wise. If BNL's town then that's exactly what the wolves want to happen here.

[JaeReed]

How was my vote scummy? It is consistent with my RVS vote from other games, where I vote someone for having a name suggesting a role that they don't have.

Self-meta. I'll check this, but I don't like the RVS vote because it doesn't give anything away. It's a vote you could easily make on the same person across multiple games and that's why it pings me.
The fact that then there was this weird "true ninja" line of thought that honestly has nothing to do with anything, and then a post where you didn't even weigh in on the game state after things had happened didn't do anything to elevate you from that initial scumread.

[JaeReed]

I have to say, that wagon looks a bit quick, guys...

Yes, the wagon seems a lot quicker than usual, and I feel that BTD6 is town with scum on his wagon, solely due to the speed of the wagon. Kinda reminds me of this.

I'm not sure I follow this. Is the comparison only due to the speed of the wagon? Wagon speed doesn't mean much alignment-wise. Flash wagons happen on both town and scum, and they can happen with all town on the wagon, so what we're looking for here is the motivation of people for jumping on/off the wagon (I don't think we can get much from people staying off the wagon due to the speed it formed though, which is a bit of a shame).

Dislike Murder's vote there. Found karnos' to be ok if a little overboard in trying to make BTD feel pressure from being at L1, since he is gonna feel pressure from it without waving it around that he's in danger of being hammered.

[JaeReed]

It's technically playing against win con for no one to vote imo. If no one dies then everyone should lose after a set period of phases pass. As Ariadne said it's against the spirit of the game.

[JaeReed]

I honestly dislike the resistance to the BTD wagon. There's nothing I see redeemable about his slot and I don't mind putting him at L-1 this early.

This. I don't like the fact that he's being told, basically, "don't worry my wolfy mate you aren't at risk of being lynched". He still hasn't done any visible scumhunting and I would like to see that.

As is karnos for some very odd posts he made. At first read I actually felt like 101 was towny but I don't think so anymore. MURDER is right also, 119 pinged me hard.

101 didn't feel like a townslip but I'm not sure it even feels like it's trying to come across as one? I read that as NAI. I suppose you're thinking that it's an attempted townslip?
Not sure what to think of 119. It just looks worded strangely. I'll go back and do motivations in a bit since I'm kinda out of it right now.

oh and since I think someone (Jae?) asked; Ariadne is the Nahdia head!

I thought that might be the case. Slightly wary but your thoughts are mirroring my own (one of the reasons I was scared to post earlier before everyone got content out) almost to a T with small exceptions so I guess I can't keep up the paranoia of your strong scumgame forever.

Anyway, agreeing with Murder/BTD as most scummy right now.

[JaeReed]

What a twist! I kind of thought you might be doing that but then you stuck with it lol. I don't believe it either, I think we can just lynch him.

Alright, I'm still townreading Nahdia. Her thoughts mirror my own too much to be anything but the same role as me, I think. Unless I'm horribly off on how to play, which could very well be the case, but I'm treating her as mod confirmed town for the moment. There are conditions where I will look at her slot again but I don't feel like outing them beyond that yes, there is a possibility, but no, I'm not looking at her as wolf now in any light.

That said, I am townreading karnos due to recent events, and dislike the way MURDERCAT interacted with the wagon, and pretty much everything surrounding it. The aggression towards Sick isn't something I expected from town murdercat, for one, and the weird behaviour since has only solidified that feeling. This is where I'm looking for the next wolf.

VOTE: MURDERCAT

I don't want D&A or BTD lynched anymore. I don't believe BTD's claim, if I'm honest, but I'd rather lynch the other scum today just in case.

[JaeReed]

Fuck no i dont believe the Seer claim...

~ Sick

Does anyone? lol.

If we lynch another scum today then we get 2 scum for the price of one.

If he does somehow happen to be the seer then we also get a result if he isn't vengekilled.
It's up to wolves whether they wanna vengekill him or not in that situation. He's basically the guaranteed lynch tomorrow if he doesn't hit a wolf tonight, so that's a free mislynch for them on a town power role, but if he hits a wolf tonight and we lynch a wolf today then it's game over.
Depends how ballsy our remaining wolf is in that situation, and whether they have an alpha or roleblocker. It's likely that they do if we do indeed have a seer. So I want to lynch that today if possible.

So, Murder, to answer your question. Don't believe the claim, and I think you're looking scummy so you're the next best option for me. I'm hoping to nail both scum D1 but I don't expect to, if I'm being honest. Feel free to make cases if you think I missed something either undeniably townie from you or undeniably scummy from others (preferably the latter since I can better read you off that I think).

[JaeReed]

We don't want a counterclaim. If we lynch scum they will just venge or block the counter.

[JaeReed]

Ok so no one is following my defense of nahdia being too close to my own thought processes to not be town so I'll add this. Nahdia has a strong scum game. She tends to play people as scum. She's not doing that here, because she's not scum. You think she suicides like this as anything but town? Because I don't think so.

[JaeReed]

@karnos she was trying to make it appear as though the first was true while actually doing the 2nd.

[JaeReed]

UNVOTE:

Don't want a quickhammer and I feel it's a possibility at this point.

BTD can you please explain your reads? Specifically, why is Charloux so high, and Karnos so low?

[JaeReed]

The spam from BTD at the beginning of page 2 rubbed me the wrong way for a number of reasons. I liked Chip's response to it, but I'm voting for the RVS vote itself pinging me as scummy moreso than the rest of the spam.

I liked Realeo's entrance, but disliked Sick deliberately being overly reachy with the vote reasoning on Chip. Also disliked the whole hunch on BNL being town thing, but I am assuming that is linked to some kind of thought process that the person wagon'ed in RVS is usually town? If that's the case, I disagree, but it's not a scummy thing to say. Sick I've noticed looks scummy to me in general when I spectate games so /shrug. We'll see how that goes. I didn't much like 47 since it's defending the other head but ehh. I can't see motivation there either way other than just story time.

I liked BNL's 48 for town.

Oh and Chip? The reason I replaced out of Trees now that I can talk about it is because of Open 640. I saw your RVS banter with Kappy and realized I was going to tunnel tf out of you because I somehow got that in my mind that you were his scumbuddy despite previously stating that you would have had to have reverse the whole bus station over him. Talk about reading into things too much...

Can we wagon BTD please? I'm not comfortable with a townread of mine running up time as the highest wagon while BTD is looking scummy and laying low content-wise. If BNL's town then that's exactly what the wolves want to happen here.

How was my vote scummy? It is consistent with my RVS vote from other games, where I vote someone for having a name suggesting a role that they don't have.

Self-meta. I'll check this, but I don't like the RVS vote because it doesn't give anything away. It's a vote you could easily make on the same person across multiple games and that's why it pings me.
The fact that then there was this weird "true ninja" line of thought that honestly has nothing to do with anything, and then a post where you didn't even weigh in on the game state after things had happened didn't do anything to elevate you from that initial scumread.

I honestly dislike the resistance to the BTD wagon. There's nothing I see redeemable about his slot and I don't mind putting him at L-1 this early.

This. I don't like the fact that he's being told, basically, "don't worry my wolfy mate you aren't at risk of being lynched". He still hasn't done any visible scumhunting and I would like to see that.

As is karnos for some very odd posts he made. At first read I actually felt like 101 was towny but I don't think so anymore. MURDER is right also, 119 pinged me hard.

101 didn't feel like a townslip but I'm not sure it even feels like it's trying to come across as one? I read that as NAI. I suppose you're thinking that it's an attempted townslip?
Not sure what to think of 119. It just looks worded strangely. I'll go back and do motivations in a bit since I'm kinda out of it right now.

oh and since I think someone (Jae?) asked; Ariadne is the Nahdia head!

I thought that might be the case. Slightly wary but your thoughts are mirroring my own (one of the reasons I was scared to post earlier before everyone got content out) almost to a T with small exceptions so I guess I can't keep up the paranoia of your strong scumgame forever.

Anyway, agreeing with Murder/BTD as most scummy right now.

@Real I think I did explain in thread. If you want me to quote-wall for convenience I can but not tonight. I have a RL condition that is messing with me atm. Sorry. If you ISO me and search BTD there should be enough there to know my thoughts on him. If you ask for clarification about something specific there I'll try to still keep responding to the best of my ability tonight.

[JaeReed]

oh.. I guess that did work. Nvm then. Tried to quote wall earlier but thought I lost it when chrome closed. ^ I guess there is your quote-wall for convenience.

[JaeReed]

For the record, the meta dive on BTD's RVS votes always being that way ended up concluding he lied. I don't think it means anything since it was recent enough that he could have just decided to change the way he votes in RVS. I'd imagine he'll rethink that after this game.

[JaeReed]

BTD, the problem with that is my top scumread is you, so your argument there is for me to lynch the claimed seer over my 2nd scumread.

That said, my strongest townread wants a BNL lynch. I'm hoping I can go over that before deadline.

Spoiler: eh RL stuff

I overdid it recently and kicked my cfs into high gear so it's genuinely a struggle for me to do shit right now.

[JaeReed]

The difference in this case is that lynching the Seer is worse than lynching a VT. Thus, if you think I am a Seer, you would be best going for your next strongest, as usually the worst-case scenario is that they are a VT.

My argument was addressed to Karnos, who was choosing between Murdercat (weak scum) and D&A (strong scum). Neither of them are claimed PRs so in my argument it was implicit that neither target was a PR.

Except I don't think you're a Seer. I think you fake-claimed.

Anyway, I'm sure D&A is town and the discomfort over me potentially buddying makes that even more so. It's pretty much exactly how KTS reacted when I declared him pretty much an Innocent Child to me in the newbie game Trees. This is an incredibly strong read for me and this should not be where Karnos is lynching today. I believe Karnos is willing to compromise with me on that.

If you're somehow town and have doubts then check them tonight. Not where I'd be checking, but eh. Not a lynch I will allow to happen without fighting furiously against it.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: MURDERCAT

[JaeReed]

^ L1 btw

[JaeReed]

Jae, you still fine L-1ing 3 days from deadline? I'd prefer that only two days away IMO.

Not really, but I am unsure on you and my strongest townread got put 1 vote off the top wagon. All it would have taken was you switching from Murder to D&A. I'm not letting my strongest townread get lynched without a fight. This way I think(?) that makes Murder the longer standing wagon from the two of them.

For the record, I'm not certain on Murder atm, but at this point it's whether I'd rather him or D&A. Which means that, if we assume BTD's claim is true, the likely scum are in those I've been town or nullreading. So BNL, Charl, Karnos, Chip. Karnos I really think is town. Charl isn't acting like his scumgame here either. Problem with that is I'm left with someone I have a propensity for townreading as either alignment (BNL) and someone I have a propensity for scumreading as town (Chip).

I don't know. If we assume BTD and Murder are both town then my reads are thoroughly fucked. The one thing I am sure of is D&A as town, and therefore, I want them alive as someone I trust to be coming from a town mindset.

[JaeReed]

Rereading karnos ISO. Would want to point out this contradiction while I continue reading:

You realize this is a micro game right? L-1 in a micro game is about the same as L-2 in a larger game. There are only 2 scum. I put BTD at L-1 because I'd LOVE to see a scum quick-hammer him, it would rip the game wide open and give town a free lynch tomorrow. I trust my fellow town to not hammer needlessly. I also saw some value in seeing exactly how BTD reacted to the sudden wagon.

But now all that is for naught.

Not strongly, I was voting him to provide a service:

Can we wagon BTD please? I'm not comfortable with a townread of mine running up time as the highest wagon while BTD is looking scummy and laying low content-wise. If BNL's town then that's exactly what the wolves want to happen here.

I see no contradiction here. He voted BTD because I asked for it and decided it would be good for reactions. That's a part of what wagons are. I was scumreading BTD but he didn't need to in order to join the wagon.

[JaeReed]

V/LA until tomorrow night

Sorry, I'll have more time soon.

I desperately need your thoughts on the gamestate when you can. Specifically your thoughts on BNL as a potential partner for BTD.

I think you might actually be town here but am less certain than I am on D&A which is the only reason I need your wagon to be higher. Your best bet for survival here is voting BNL because that's where I would rather be right now.

For the record, Karnos, I don't think Murdercat could be BTD's partner based off an ISO. He was too amiable to the lynch there and continued to scumread BTD after the claim like the rest of us.

[JaeReed]

@ReallySick can I convince you to vote BNL instead, also?

[JaeReed]

Moderate Town: Charloux
Null-weak Town: Chip, ReallySick, JaeReed
Weak scum: BNL, Murdercat
Moderate-strong scum: Karnos, D&A

Murdercat is my fourth strongest scumread. I am OK with a lynch on him but I would rather push and vote for a lynch on one of my three stronger scumreads (D&A, Karnos, and BNL). Of these, D&A and BNL would be preferable lynches to Murdercat.

What I don't like about lynching Murdercat is that most people are actually pushing for the wrong reasons. If Murdercar is a strong scumread, by all means vote. If not, vote for a strong scumread.

Ok so why D&A or BNL instead of D&A or Karnos? What changed for you?

[JaeReed]

First, karnos says that he voted BTD for reactions (from potential hammerers and BTD himself), then he says it was because he wanted to follow you. Are you seeing something that I am not?

Yup! My QuickTopic with him!

[JaeReed]

So reading again. I don't like how Realeo is townreading Murdercat by discrediting scumpoints rather than making a towncase. This is because this could be scum defending their buddy.

You're not crediting me enough. The first post was debunking argument, then the second two are original argument (by my standard. No one had talked about the 2 types of player right. Everyone was "why the hell you let loose the pressure.")

I have question for everyone

. A number of people went "Yash! We got 2 werewolf for the price of 1!" (referring to BTD and MURDERCAT)

What happen if MURDERCAT flips town? Are you going to just whack BTD or what?

PS: We have 1 day left. Start voting even though you're not sure.

~Realeo

Yeah I don't think Murder is scum anymore. So day 2 I'll be voting with D&A for BNL most likely and trying to make that case when there's more time to do so.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: BNL

Since it looks like this might actually happen now and is my preferred.

[JaeReed]

I forgot about that investigatives were broken with the QTs, and it has nothing to do with the Nightless part. (Jae you remember when you were a follower in the fallout shelter?)

Yeah still backreading since I just woke but speculating whether scum have rolecop.

[JaeReed]

About BTD, the question we have to answer is:

1) Did BTD figured out that the hammer is fake?

2) If no, did he troll as a maf?

~Realeo

I am convinced that neither me, MURDERCAT, ChipButty realized it--but BTD? I am more inclined to not either.

But did his scumbuddy? They have daychat.

[JaeReed]

^ that would be too scumsided I think?

Although given no nightkills maybe not. It just feels like that would completely negate the point of having a seer in the first place.

[JaeReed]

Actually, I think I believe the claim on reread. My original thought was that a scumbuddy coached him to claim seer knowing that it wasn't a hammer, but I didn't check the timestamps. Plus there's the cop/seer thing that he wouldn't have messed up if he was told to claim seer.

He's scummy as f but I do tend to read him as a scummy when spectating games regardless of his alignment. The claim looks genuine now that I've had time to cool off the "nah he's too scummy for it to be true" mindset.

For the record, when I read his claim I considered softing to push the lynch through as well since I didn't believe it. So if D&A happen to be scum then nahdia has the same scum mindset as my town one. Hence why I think they're town.

[JaeReed]

Yeah that was unfortunate. I should have paid more attention to the thread before the flip. Would have been nice to clarify some things with BNL before it, if only to get that little bit extra of information from him.

Still townreading Charl and D&A, for the record.

I'll go over more of this game over the weekend hopefully. Need to re-evaluate things with the flip.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: BTD

Target and results please.

What do you propose we do if the response is "No result"?

[JaeReed]

But I still think D&A is the scum, and JaeReed is the scum partner. Just some strong tells that I would never expect to see from a town player.

See it's stuff like this that makes me think you could be scum. I remember having a really strong town read on you comparable to my read on Charl though so I need to do that review.

I'm thinking there is a decent chance Murder is town. BTD could flip either way but there's no way he's actually a PR I think. Other than that, need to do my reread and throw things into the thread.

For anyone wondering about my paranoia here, in my room with Karnos last night it sounded like gloating scum. The very first thing was a comment on BNL flipping what he said he'd flip, basically.

So I'm going to be looking at BNL's last thoughts regarding his wagon, the way it came about as a counter to Murder and where the resistances for it were, whether they seem natural or unnatural. I'm going to be looking at Murder coming about as a counter to BTD, BTD's claim, who believed him and who did not. Who stopped pushing him and who kept doing it. Whether it reads as natural or unnatural. Highly encourage others to do the same, since I don't really know enough about wagon analysis.

[JaeReed]

I know i don't have the right to say this based on my activity but,

why on earth are you guessing the game setup 12 hours before the deadline?!

If you can't decide who to lynch, then just go to random.org or something. The only ones who have a clue of the setup are PR's(If any) and scum. So i can only see scum gaining from mere speculations.

We have no claimed Seer, so lynching town delibaretly is a bad idea if you ask me.

VOTE: Karnos
Since i didn't even analyze the game properly i just decided to vote for someone i don't mind not seeing tomorrow. My first choice would be D&A, but

since SOMEONE blackmailed me not to

(You know who you are!) i will just go with this.

What misrepresentation? I never linked that statement to you!
Basically you are scumlean at worst ,

but i have reasons not to vote for anybody else

.

Explain the bits in red, please.

I told him not to vote D&A. My read on her is equivalent to Innocent Child to me. I'd imagine that's what the blackmailed not to part was about, because I told him I want my strongest town read alive.

The top bit is him saying deliberately lynching town is a bad idea. I agree. He misunderstood that we were looking for the 2nd scum rather than deliberately avoiding scum to avoid the venge on BTD if he was indeed the seer. (He's not the seer, though)

He has reasons not to vote for anybody else = townreads or claims. It all seems pretty straightforward to me aside from the blackmail comment. Which is directly correlated to our chat in our room.

In other news:

VOTE: ReallySick

If there's scum on BNL's wagon it has to be either him or Murder. Since I'm thinking Murder's more likely town than not from the innocent way he reacted to his own wagon (the fact that he thought the lynch was to avoid the vengekills and so purposely on town) this is where I'm voting for now.

Last time I sheeped BNL good things happened. He repeatedly said he thinks the scum on his wagon is RS, and his gut reads are pretty good. I am also willing to vote Karnos, who was his first scumread for the reasons he stated that I also saw as suspicious. The avoidance of the BNL wagon was very deliberate imo and BNL hadn't done much to appear as town.

I am pretty sure this is game solved, if I'm being honest. At least one of Karnos/RS are scum, if not both. If my reread gives me an undeniably strong townread/scumread then that vote can change, of course.

Thoughts from Chip, Charl, Nahdia, Murder?

[JaeReed]

VOTE: karnos

Regardless this is scum. Let's lynch scum today.

@BTD you're sticking with your claim? This is a one time free out. If you are a VT then say so now.

[JaeReed]

For anyone wondering about my paranoia here, in my room with Karnos last night it sounded like gloating scum. The very first thing was a comment on BNL flipping what he said he'd flip, basically.

Gloating town and gloating scum sound pretty similar, the difference is town doesn't care about his gloating being revealed.

Your buddy, who you are calling an innocent child, LIED to try to get BTD lynched. That is how positive she was that BTD was scum. Yet a little bit latter she was happy to jump wagons to BNL, and lynch him, with basically no case at all.

That is pure scum motivation. I was pretty sure you were her partner, as it's the only think that made sense of your silly "innocent child" claim, but maybe just maybe you had the wool pulled completely over your eyes. Either way, D&A is scum. With murdercat, as it may be.

Yes, and considering I was thinking of doing the

exact same thing

at the time I was reading BTD's claim because I didn't buy it for a second, she's town for it. BNL did not look town. His lynch was mostly my fault in the end because I went with her read on him after I wasn't so sure on Murder anymore. If I'd set up a topic with him beforehand things might have been different, but I didn't. There was a case on BNL. Just because you didn't see it didn't mean there was no reason we were lynching him.

D&A is not scum, because I did not get a scum aligned role PM. Simple as that. There's a reason I waited for everyone to post before I did on D1. D&A's thought process lines up almost completely with my own. Which means she is the same alignment as I am. Guaranteed.

And yes, we pretty much unanimously agreed as town to not lynch BTD yesterday so of course she's going to move on to her next scumread.

[JaeReed]

I told him not to vote D&A. My read on her is equivalent to Innocent Child to me. I'd imagine that's what the blackmailed not to part was about, because I told him I want my strongest town read alive.

Why? Can you share the exact read? What post of D&A's convinced you, not that she is merely town, but that she is absolutely confirmed town with no possibility of you being wrong?

And, really, the weird thing to me is that you claimed this in a topic as early as 7pm EST on June 15th. But then on June 16th at 6:40 pm, you told me you don't share a whisper topic with D&A. Whoa, huge red flag. You honestly expect me to believe that up until that point, you were perfectly happy to share your theories and bounce ideas off me, instead of someone you said was essentially mod-confirmed town to you?

That made no sense to me whatsoever.

All of her posts convinced me. She's not scum.

Didn't need a topic to know she's town. The early topic with you was because I was having trouble sorting you. Questioning you and bouncing ideas around helps to get more info to sort you with. Early topic with Charl was for trying to game solve with a townread (which I requested in RVS before D&A even posted).

[JaeReed]

What the fuck JR, he just claimed a guilty and you think he is VT?

Your reaction to your wagon yesterday and to the guilty read as town to me.

[JaeReed]

Also, i find this situation with BTD and Murder kinda sad. If he is guilty then we got scum, if he is town then BTD is scum, no?

Not necessarily.

VOTE: Murdercat

Murdercat is Guilty.

Well this is shocking, I was pretty sure about my suspected scum team, apparently I made a mistake. Of course BTD could be scum lying, but in retrospect there is this:

VOTE: BTD

Target and results please.

WTF was this?

Murdercat, are you going to pretend you had no idea about the no-vote strategy? Start of the day, immediately places a vote, so we can't attempt a non-vote no-lynch day to let the "seer" work a little?

Dumb town, or scum just coming out as scum in the most obvious way? I don't know.

We lynch murdercat, if he comes back town we lynch BTD tomorrow. I'm not going to vote immediately, I want to see some discussion regarding the above.

"Well this is shocking" does not read as a genuine reaction to me. Also as far as the latter bit, I was pretty sure we hadn't agreed on any such thing considering we didn't know whether to believe the claim. So you're reaching. In a big way.

The very last paragraph? That's not happening.

God your reads are stupid...

Scum, or town that likes to lynch fellow town. Either way you need to by lynched after murdercat.

Also not happening. This is also the wrong conclusion to reach from that response.

The fact that you still can't see the town motivation in my play is seriously confounding. It's like your a little child, covering their ears and closing their eyes and screaming "LALALALALALA" when the blatant fact that I'm town is presented to you.

If you are town motivated, then you are just bad.

After we lynch your partner murdercat, you are next.

You're the one currently being bad if you're town, and you need to stop with the tunneling based off weak reasonings if you're town. You literally said to me that BNL couldn't be BTD's partner because scum wouldn't associate so openly, and then not long after start saying I'm scum with D&A when I've drawn such strong associates there that it could never be the case.

[JaeReed]

And I want to address one extra reasoning that has something to do with the drama we had today: D&A fosing me over the whisper.

As hinted above, I exchange a lot with Karnos. Karnos pointed out a good argument about JaeReed being scum. This has something to do with JaeReed whispering D&A (I will give more detail later on) which is why I must ask D&A about JaeReed. But this is where it raised my alarm. He gave me argument about JaeReed being scum--but he is advocating a D&A lynch (I will explain more detail later on. I really need sleep)

~Realeo

Is that the argument pointed out earlier in the thread? I addressed that. My topic with Charloux was because I wanted a topic with a townread. My townread of Charl started as early as his confirmation. Plus I was purposely withholding saying anything in thread until everyone had posted at least once and I had my initial reads. I needed /someone/ to talk to

I got a topic with Karnos because I can't read him. Figured that might make it easier to read him + he was complaining about people not talking in the main thread so I assumed he didn't have a topic with anyone. In Fractals I was pretty lost without a topic but once I got one with BNL it helped a LOT so I thought that may be the issue Karnos was having.

Out of the early RS/Chip deal, Chip comes out looking a lot better than RS. I can see Sick's point that Chip isn't playing to his town meta though, and it's continuing to bug me even now. That said, he came up with the breaking strategy where we no lynch and let the seer work, which, regardless of whether we're believing BTD's claim and result, is a strategy that could only have town motivation, I think.

The BNL lynch was absolute garbage in hindsight. His early stuff was just flat town and I got too paranoid over him believing the claim and ended up dropping my initial townread because of it. That was entirely my fault for not getting a topic with him early on like I tossed up doing due to paranoia of his scumgame and him potentially manipulating me.

I think I'm townreading Karnos again though. On review I actually think a lot of his stuff is just town. The issue I'm having is that I am literally townreading everyone. Which is less than ideal, obviously.

Murder looked really innocently town regarding his wagon yesterday, in a way that I'm thinking he probably is actually just town. I just don't know where to look from here. Maybe now that my romantic interest is asleep I can actually reread the game.

UNVOTE:

P-Edit: Ranger your nerdiness showed It's ok though I still think you're cool <3

Pfft, I've only watched the film...fifteen, sixteen times or so. It's not like that's anything unusual.

[JaeReed]

Is that the argument pointed out earlier in the thread? I addressed that.

No, it's a different argument.

So this is basically Karnos' argument:

Premise 1 : JaeReed townread D&A
Premise 2 : We expect town to whisper their townread
Premise 3 : According to JaeReed + Karnos whisper, JaeReed didn't whisper D&A
Conclusion: Therefore JaeReed is scum.

Figured that might make it easier to read him + he was complaining about people not talking in the main thread so I assumed he didn't have a topic with anyone.

He claimed to have 5 topics.

That's the argument from earlier I was talking about. Saw no need to whisper someone who had the same thoughts as I did that early on. I did end up getting a room with them later in the day.

Thing is, a strong townread on someone based off "I know my alignment and they are saying almost the exact same thing as I would be" hardly amounts to me & that person scum team. At most it amounts to me being scum buddying town. The associates Karnos is drawing from are lazy as and go against what he said earlier.

I feel like Karnos is more along the lines of town thought.

As for the topics thing, that was my own assumption. I never asked him how many topics he had.

P-Edit: Chip is town I think. Does Sick need a case?

[JaeReed]

Alright so I'm starting to get drunk -- sue me, I'm Australian (I love that defense) so this is as far as I got. This is the start of my Chip case. As I go so there's no overall conclusion. You guys get to see how I work.

Spoiler: part 1

I have read and understand my Role PM.

Scumlean based off this following the exact same post.

VOTE: Karnos for soon-to-be-voting BulletNLynchProof.

Familiarity with another person in the game. Null RVS post. Mild like on a gut level.

I just want to clarify, and I know SOMEONE will jump on me for this, but it is a genuine question about the mechanics:

If werevolves have no factional NK, and only kill Town through lynching and vengekill resulting from lynching, can't Town actually peacefully co-exist with werewolves indefinitely, as long as we never lynch? I mean, with no NK, they pose no threat to Town unless we lynch.

Pre-emptive annoyance over being scumread for a mechanics question. Could be null-scum or null-town.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: MURDERCAT for accusing me of making him look dumb, when he actually made

himself

look dumb.

Mildly liking this for town due to tone. Overall null by here.

Werewolves control the vote if town doesn't vote so it doesn't work. Read the rule I posted above, it's important.

A-HA! GOTCHA! Now

you've

made

me

look dumb, which is EXACTLY what you accused me of doing to you. That's hypocrisy, which is a scum trait. My vote stands.

Mild dislike. Reachy reason to keep vote where it was. Seems lazy. Laziness is NAI. Also seems over the top on trying to joke around though, which is mild scum. Overall null-scum by here.

I'm reading Realeo as Town, but I'm pretty certain Sick is scum.

Was the same thought I had Liking it for town. Back up to nullish. Slightly over null-town.

I'm reading Realeo as Town, but I'm pretty certain Sick is scum.

is this an OMGUS?

I would like you to address my points. why you are not playing as your town meta.

It's a half-OMGUS, since I am only OMGUSing one of your heads. My RVS technique is evolving, thanks to an ongoing game I can't discuss. I feel like I have more of an insight into RVS now, and am approaching it a bit differently. Why are you so keen to get us out of RVS?

I don't like this - I can't explain why, I just don't. That said, I know what it feels like to follow Ranger in a game and realize that RVS is actually way more important than you'd think as a newbie, which is where I think this comes from. Ultimately if anything this puts him around null.

VOTE: Chip Butty

for potentially carnivorous and to be honest, I have a hunch that BulletNLynchproof is town.

~ Realeo

You're voting me for "potentially carnivorous"? Have you looked at your scumbuddy MURDERCAT'S avatar?

Also, did you mean to tie your vote on me to your hunch about BNLP? And is your hunch based on his superior math skills? As far as I know, that's NAI.

@Sick head: It's the weekend, dawg. Chill. Discussion will pick up once people are in a position to steal from their employers by playing at woork.

Kinda what I was thinking as far as the "hunch" being weird. In retrospect it's like scum who knew who town was. I thought it was because of some kinda "the first wagon in RVS is town" hunch but it was hinted that wasn't the case. As far as Chip it's null-townish. This doesn't feel like someone who knows the alignment of the person he's speaking to.

I agree with this.
I'm still slightly reading chipbutty as scum still.

@Chipbutty

I like the analytic style better. It's a better town style then what you are doing now. You shouldn't change it IMO

I guess the game you're referring to mainly is Open 640, the one we played in together, right? If you go back and look at that, you'll see that I did place two joke votes at the start (Kappy, Aneninen) and, more importantly, that I came out of RVS thinking both were scum, when they were not. Also, I thought you were scum, and prob Shotty too, and you were both Town too. So, I'm being a little more cautious. Also, as you and others have pointed out, there hasn't been a great deal of public posting, so there really isn't much to go on yet. If you see something you think is scummy, and it isn't me, by all means point it out and I'll look at it. If it

is

me, I'll try to alleviate your concerns as best I can.

Purely defensive post. Possibly more townish than not. Scum would try to find something else to turn discussion to a little more than town, imo.

I have a theory, but the theory is (1) not conclusive (2)normally, I would be glad to explain it, but explaining the theory will be synonymous with [redacted] (3) who the hell picks up read from RVS?

Hence, the reason I used the word "hunch" =P.

~Realeo

I guess if anything looks weird so far, it is this...

1. No-one is expecting a conclusive theory out of RVS. That shouldn't stop you from posting it.

2. WTF?

3. You two heads need to discuss this among yourselves - as far as I can see, Realio is saying we can't pick up reads from RVS, while Sick is insisting that we do. personally, I agree with Sick on this.

There you go, Sick - analytical enough for you?

Reachy but due to Sick calling him out. This is more the Chip I'm used to though. This at least shows awareness of his previous meta. Which means meta's useless from this point.

[JaeReed]

Also, i find this situation with BTD and Murder kinda sad. If he is guilty then we got scum, if he is town then BTD is scum, no?

Why sad? It's good for Town to finger scum, no?

Sad, as in nobody even cares for BTD. Nobody is voting for Murder and nobody is scumreading BTD because they think he is faking it. Just flat out ignored.
@Jae: For a drunkard you sure like wallposts Jae. And it's part 1?! And since you drink every day a bit of warning: Alcohol kills nerve cells. I don't know if you have these people there, but there are a couple of local legends here that act like they are drunk even when they aren't. The thing they all have in common is that they used to drink too much. And i wonder what will be the the turning point of your read on Chip, so far it's null-scum?

As far as my read on Chip... It's coming. As far as BTD, yeah I'm thinking the claim was fake and therefore the guilty is fake. Plus I was townreading Murder due to the way he reacted to his wagon D1. Just wasn't a scummy way to react to your own wagon.

And I have studied the effects of alcohol on the brain. It's part of the intro to psychology. At least I don't inject adrenaline on a dare and potentially stress my heart for a stupid as fuck reason. You have no right to take the moral high ground with me, dude.

[JaeReed]

So? He is claiming a guilty on you has equal power with claiming a innocent on you or even claiming roleblocked. A VT claimed Cop is a VT gambit--it doesn't matter the report. This maybe counter-intuitive but it is the truth.

He can be scum, VT gambiting scum on your, or real cop checking you.

Trust me that 100% understand you--if you're town--I have been on the giving end and the receiving end.

~Realeo

This. BTD can be scum or town.

I do not believe BTD's claim and I do not believe his claim of having a result.

This means he could be seer with a no result, seer with a guilty, VT guessing at a result he's confident on (think what pisskop has been known to do) to try to get that lynched to save his own bacon, or I don't really fucken know. Charl knows more about fakeclaiming than I do considering he was the one that fakeclaimed JK and ended up moving the lynch line along to the doctor in Trees so that both our goddamn PRs got outted. Yes, I'm still pissed about that.

Anyway, there are situations in which neither BTD nor Murder are scum. I'm townreading Murder but am still unsure on BTD. The fact that Murder is acting like a goddamn Jester doesn't help me sort shit. Everything has been complicated needlessly because I have to sort if the seer claim is scum or dumb town.

[JaeReed]

As for BTD, I don't see why people are even thinking about the possibility that they could be a gambitting VT. Like where is this coming from? He claimed cop and has a guilty on me.

Because he looked scummy as fuck on D1 and people didn't believe his claim even then. He was told to have a guilty basically by D&A and he conveniently comes back D2 with a guilty... On someone who reacted so innocently town to his wagon D1 (the whole "oh so we're lynching town to avoid the vengekill" assumption on your behalf) that there's no way it could be scum.

If I hadn't experienced town fake claiming before I wouldn't even be questioning this and would be trying to drive home a BTD lynch right now. This is fucking with my head and I feel like I'm being manipulated seven ways to Sunday and I don't know who by or whether it's for scum or town reasonings.

[JaeReed]

Time to spill the bean.

I'm the seer. Me and BTD have been roleswapping.

~Realeo

I doubt it. Purely because I know what it's like to be a PR in this kind of setup. I was Follower with Get A Room mechanics in my first exposure to this mechanic.

I outted to my rooms and townreads only (along with an accidental outing to Postie which in turn her reaction was so town that she became my top townread). I did not ever under any circumstances out in the main thread.

But alright. You're claiming seer. Are you saying that you have a guilty on Murder? If you do, we should be looking for a partner. Murder is acting like a jester though in that he wants to be lynched. If he's scum I don't think it's wise to allow him his 2 vengekills before we sus out his partner.

[JaeReed]

If you do, we should be looking for a partner. Murder is acting like a jester though in that he wants to be lynched. If he's scum I don't think it's wise to allow him his 2 vengekills before we sus out his partner

Let us do the math.

If I have Murdercat guilty and I tell that I have guilty report: there'll be people who question my report and insist on me not being cop
If I have Murdercat innocent and I tell that I have innocent report: there'll be people who question my report and insist on me not being cop

It's a lose-lose. I am

100% going

to out it later, but it's the best of interest for us to be not biased. The reason that I'm telling that I am the cop is Murdercat is tunneling on BTD and that's like not productive like hell.

It is possible that I erred and BTD is scum--but at least ditch away the gambit reasoning.

~Realeo

If you were seer with any result it would be more believable than BTD's claim.

The thing is if you have a result on Murder and you were relying on BTD you needed to make sure he followed through on securing the lynch through QTs.

Hell, here. http://pnewman.net/shelter/viewtopic.ph ... &start=825
That's the game I was Follower in with Get A Room mechanic shortly after the site went down a while back. (Also, that's where to go if the site goes down again!) That's how a newb!PR acts from my own experience. BTD would not have claimed in the main thread. He would have claimed in various quicktopics with people he townread that were on his wagon.

As far as you? I have no idea. I'm willing to believe a guilty from you, though. The thing is, I still think Murder is not the lynch for today. Instead of trying to prove his own innocence he's begging to go into a 1v1 (before it seemed to me like he was just begging to be lynched but he seems to claim that's not the case). If you truly have a guilty on Murder then you'll want to find his scumbuddy so that when you get venged it won't matter because we already have the guilty.

So, do you have a result on Murdercat or not? Is that result a guilty or innocent? If it's a guilty then I'll just admit I'm shit at reading anyone and vote wherever the majority wants me to. Because I'm townreading Murder right now in a way that I can't see him flipping scum.

[JaeReed]

Is everyone forgetting how scummy BTD looked before his claim?? Are you forgetting that I know he has a fake guilty on me??

I'm not forgetting.

However, I want you to look at RS most recent posting, then look at his ISO around the BTD wagon and your wagon. Tell me if that lines up in

even the slightest

.

I think I've actually found scum, tbh. I just don't know for sure now that we have two fucking seer claims. One with a guilty and one with an apparently

super sekrit

result.

Both Realeo and Sick had opinions regarding BTD's seer claim that I don't think could possibly make them Seer.

Gambiting in this manner if you're a VT is anti-town as fuck, guys. Like holy shit. You're muddling shit up more than is necessary. This is not beneficial to town in the slightest.

[JaeReed]

That's how a newb!PR acts from my own experience. BTD would not have claimed in the main thread. He would have claimed in various quicktopics with people he townread that were on his wagon.

Not reading the other game right now, I try to avoid meta-gaming based on other games unless I was personally part of the game.

That said, your claim doesn't make any sense to me. If BTD is a legit seer, he was also legit convinced he was hammered. There is no point in being coy about your role when you are already dead, so he wouldn't out himself in quicktopics, he would just post in the thread, as he did.

Besides that, there is some lag with quicktopics, if you are sitting at L-1 in thread and you don't want to get hammered you might not be willing to wait some time for ranger to log on and see the request for a topic. I think your argument is nonsense.

To be clear: I am not 100% convinced BTD is seer, but the problems I have with his claim are completely different from the nonsense argument you posted above.

BTD would have had topics by the time his wagon was run up. Everyone did. He wouldn't have needed to make a new topic, imo.

I do not think he thought the hammer was legit. You made a huge deal about the whole if you're town don't hammer. There was a lot of discussion because of that. Then you expect him to believe that you hammered after all that? Sure, people forget. But the person put at L1 doesn't forget who put him there, I don't think (never been there so I can't know for sure, just running off basic theory here). Plus there are quicktopics and daychat for scum. The whole thing could have been an elaborate gambit.

[JaeReed]

Gambiting in this manner if you're a VT is anti-town as fuck, guys. Like holy shit. You're muddling shit up more than is necessary. This is not beneficial to town in the slightest.

Jae, yesterday, re: D&A's seer claim gambit:

Yes, and considering I was thinking of doing the

exact same thing

at the time I was reading BTD's claim because I didn't buy it for a second, she's town for it.

Why the change of heart?

Not a change of heart. It's still anti-town. Town do anti-town shit all the time. I'm not saying she's

smart

for pulling that stunt. I am saying I thought of doing the exact same thing because I didn't believe the claim and was even more sure with the claim that we found scum. An investigative is extremely broken with this setup. BNL pointed it out, and if you checked the game I linked you'd know why. Anyone half competent wouldn't have been as obv!PR in the main thread as I was D2, where I essentially said "Hey come to the room I have something super sekrit to tell you and it's obviously not because I'm a PR with a guilty (but totes is and you need to come to the room for me to say it)".

[JaeReed]

I do not think he thought the hammer was legit. You made a huge deal about the whole if you're town don't hammer. There was a lot of discussion because of that. Then you expect him to believe that you hammered after all that?

Sure, people forget. But the person put at L1 doesn't forget who put him there

, I don't think (never been there so I can't know for sure, just running off basic theory here). Plus there are quicktopics and daychat for scum. The whole thing could have been an elaborate gambit.

But you thought D&A legit thought it was a real hammer? I thought you both had the same thinking, and that is why you town read D&A so hard. If they think different from your thinking, maybe you don't share an alignment after all...

See bold and underlined. Myself and D&A thought it was legit. It matters less to us who put BTD at L1 than it matters to BTD who put him at L1.

[JaeReed]

@all: please do not use naked spoiler tags.

Code: Select all

[spoiler=blah blah blah]text[/spoiler]

Spoiler: blah blah blah

text

I gotta come up with some catchy title? Q.Q I'm no good at titles! MY ONE TRUE WEAKNESS!

[JaeReed]

I assume that JR and RS also knew this?

Was also told that you knew.

[JaeReed]

How come BTD pulled a gambit with the majority knowing about it???

~Realeo

He said karnos didn't know and we could still see if karnos was scum from it... Which makes no sense if 7/8 people know because karnos if he was scum would have a scum buddy in the know and would know how to act regarding the gambit.

[JaeReed]

Now that this is out, RS why would Karnos be calling for a fake guilty on me if we are partners?

It was apparently meant to be a trap for me and d&a which makes no sense for us to be scum together anyway tbh.

[JaeReed]

What the fuck are you doing then?

Also to quickly clear this up, I knew around the time I gave btd the chance to retract his claim. Got a topic with him after that to sort this shit out.

[JaeReed]

Now that this is out, RS why would Karnos be calling for a fake guilty on me if we are partners?

It was apparently meant to be a trap for me and d&a which makes no sense for us to be scum together anyway tbh.

Who told you that?

Btd himself did.

[JaeReed]

{D&A}
{Chip, karnos}
{Murder, charl}
{RS, BTD}

[JaeReed]

The bottom of my list are weak town reads :/

[JaeReed]

@MURDERCAT PoE, if you can believe that. You've done nothing to convince me you're town whereas other people have done things I don't see coming from scum.

-Ariadne

What do you think about my strong read of murder based on his reaction to his wagon d1?

[JaeReed]

Are we voting me because you believe the seer claim or you just are afraid of giving vengekills? Because I'm fine with the later but not the former.

This. For some reason I thought it sounded more innocent than this lol. Like along the lines of "I guess we're lynching me to avoid the vengekill".

This is what happens when I don't get to do my re-read because someone distracts me with letting me show them shitty catgirl anime.....

Remember what happened last time I followed your vote, nahdia? :p

[JaeReed]

...Yes. I know you're town, so who do you want lynched today?

-Ariadne

Scum. I'm probably getting venged thanks to you and charl having me at the top of the lists :p so thanks for that lmao.

How certain are you in your scumreads?

[JaeReed]

I will confirm- I did suggest to BTD that he could try a gambit, if he really is the seer. He could give a false result, which the scum will know is false, and then the scum might inadvertently out themselves by saying something to confirm they know it's a false result. Alternatively, scum might reveal themselves by being over-eager to accept the claim and lynch the town, since having a seer result can be used as an excuse for the miss-lynch when it occurs.

Apparently, BTD told different results to some, and claimed he was actually a VT to others, which wasn't what I was expecting at all. The gambit is useful if he is really a seer giving a 100% wrong result, if he is actually just a VT making a guess, then his result could by chance actually be true, so that sort of ruins the experiment.

All that said and done, Jae responded to the gambit exactly in the way I would expect scum to respond- JR knew that murdercat wasn't scum, and also knew BTD wasn't scum, so tried to give BTD another out by suggesting the VT claim for one last time.

I don't know who JR's partner would be anymore, but I'm pretty sure Jae is one of the scum.

Charl told me D1 he guessed BTD to be a gambiting VT. I was still thinking BTD was scum but told Charl not to vote D&A because of my strong read on nahdia, and he didn't, so I was going to return the favour and not vote someone he thought was town today.

I was townreading murder because of his wagon d1 and thought BTD's claim was fake. So yeah I was gonna ignore it.

[JaeReed]

Ok, I will take that into consideration. Karnos is my JR though and he says JR scum.

I too think karnos is town. Still doesn't mean his reads are correct.

[JaeReed]

Nahdia where am I voting? Give me a name to put between them fancy tags. Also how many more lynches do we have before we're screwed? I still can't math :c

[JaeReed]

Lol what happens when two people proxy each other?

I pull puppy eyes and beg nahdia to game solve for me while apologizing for bringing up her failure with the BNL lynch. ;p

My main scumreads when I told you to sheep me were based off false premises I think.

I can vote either RS or BTD. The latter would probably be partly policy at this point though so perhaps back to RS? BNL said his gut told him the scum on his wagon was RS.

[JaeReed]

Because he believed that the scum is D&A and JaeReed. According to BTD, the plan is to whisper JaeReed and D&A innocent while claiming Murdercat is guilty. Why he proposed it is I have no idea?

~Realeo

Scumslip on how to set up mislynches on me and D&A?

[JaeReed]

VOTE: ReallySick

[JaeReed]

I whispered BTD after he didn't retract the claim since I was about ready to drive his lynch into the ground since I didn't believe the claim.

[JaeReed]

I think that's around the time D&A whispered him about it too

[JaeReed]

And that's when he told you that the gambit was happening?

After I pushed him for lying to charl about being a VT yup. Just as well charl told me he thought he was a gambiting VT or we might have had a mislynch since I was deathtunneling him before that pretty much.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: karnos

-Ariadne

Walk me through this?

[JaeReed]

Just vote with me. You said you would.

[JaeReed]

Granted, I see no town motivation,

but I also don't see the scum motivation

This.

Also, D&A can you confirm the gambit?

[JaeReed]

Talking with what's essentially my hydra buddy, Nahdia.

She doesn't want a RS lynch. Getting her to review some stuff with me before we decide where our two votes are going. Hang tight, people.

[JaeReed]

The only reason we want to lynch him D1 was becuase he didn't talk enough. Now? He talked.

Really? His lies about being a seer convinced you he is town? Or was it the lie about getting a guilty (or innocent, or no result) on murdercat that convinced you he is town?

The gambit itself is NAI, but the fact that he continued to claim seer until the every end just drips of scum. The only reason he wasn't lynched yesterday was because he claimed seer, that claim has been shot down.

If you let BTD go now, the next time we vote someone to l-1 they are just going to claim some silly power role to avoid getting lynched, and then rescind the claim later as an "obv towny".

Being survivalistic doesn't necessarily make him scum. The whole gambit stuff was awful but I'm not sure that makes him scum any more than it makes him just bad at the game.

Charloux, on the other hand? From stuff in our room alone... He claimed to recognize BTD's claim as a gambit from early on, with the excuse of needing experience to recognize it. Then he claimed he thinks Murder is a VI with the excuse takes one to know one. He also didn't think BNL would flip scum. Why? There's a simple answer for this and it's that he knows our alignments.

VOTE: Charloux

[JaeReed]

It wasn't a survival move if he believed he was being hammered.

If he didn't believe the hammer, there is one more thing BTD lied about. How many lies does it take before you stop trusting someone?

I've played with Charloux before quite a few times since my first game. For this reason I don't subscribe to Lynch All Liars. It's lazy as far as scumhunting goes.

[JaeReed]

For a second I thought that was the biggest scum slip of all time.

This is town.

And not just because Fire-types are my favourite.

[JaeReed]

For a second I thought that was the biggest scum slip of all time.

This is town.

And not just because Fire-types are my favourite.

And by this is town I mean this is a townslip that I am confident wasn't faked.

[JaeReed]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: D&A

There's no way your reads are this bad. Plus I do legitimately think you pointing out stuff being scumtells is one of your own.

[JaeReed]

Pardon me, but can't mafia also say the same?

I can somewhat accept your argument about murdercat's lynch--but that is too much.

~Realeo

Murder did so in an unprompted way that seemed more like a "haha I'm so dumb" comment that he didn't think about at all.

Mafia would have more thought put into it.

[JaeReed]

Yeah I'm really surprised about the D&A vote...

Nahdia really pushed me off RS.
Despite saying she'd sheep me because she was wrong on BNL.
Who flipped town.
Who I was townreading before she slipped in the doubt in our PT.
Now she's pushing Charl/Murder.
After seeing my reads....

Do you understand what I'm seeing here?

I feel like I'm being too paranoid to the point where I'm nuts and pointing fingers randomly and screaming "SCUM!" and I also feel like I'm being manipulated... I haven't talked to anyone for a fair amount of time since the BTD claim came into light. The only reason I could still feel I'm being manipulated is literally by my talk with Nahdia.

I don't know. I feel like I'm being fucked with in a major way and the only thing that points to that is Nahdia.

[JaeReed]

Haha wow Jae with the betrayal! So rude, yo!

Yo I

DID

sheep you on RS. I was always gonna sheep you. Then you decided we could vote Charl so I voted Charl. Just because I agreed to sheep you don't mean I can't give my thoughts.

-Ariadne

Except you were trying to manipulate me into voting Charl from the moment we voted RS. So is it really me deciding we could in the end?

[JaeReed]

That's opportunistic as fuck and I for one surprised no one jumped on that. We have been literally on every wagon.

But is it really? Town are more likely to not think about these things when they're voting because they don't have to worry about it as much as scum does. They just need to worry about trying to lynch scum.

If I had to choose between you and karnos for scum it'd be you, though.

@Nahdia I think Charl's reaction to me voting him was infuriating but I am still sure he's town.

I want a scumflip today. How sure is everyone on BTD's wagon that he's going to flip scum? This just feels like a policy lynch. I don't like policy lynches.

[JaeReed]

I personally considered the possibility of Karnos/D&A. I mean, why you jumped fos to JaeReed and

only after I laid my gambit

you fos back BTD. A leaked bucket?

~Realeo

This has crossed my mind, yes. Along with RS/D&A possibility.

[JaeReed]

I am considering D&A and JaeReed scum at the moment.

This is a team that is literally impossible due to interactions.

[JaeReed]

I was always gonna sheep you.

What's this crap about sheeping Jae anyway, even if you read JR as confTown? What makes you so sure JR can hit scum here?

Because I demanded it in whisper after the BNL flip.

[JaeReed]

because chip look at his ISO.
he literally has only been pushing a BTD lynch. this can mean two things;

(1) he is scum being very careful not hooping around on wagons.
(2) He has been pushing the wagon with least resistance the whole game.

3) he is tunneled town

[JaeReed]

VOTE: BTD

L1

Been thinking about this a lot now that I'm over my paranoia of Nahdia's scumgame... If it's a choice between a towny looking karnos or someone who apparently thought they were hammered, and decided to twilight troll that they were the Seer (which had potential of outing our seer in the manner D&A emulated), I'm gonna choose the liar. Still hate policy lynches, but karnos is right. His actions so far have only hurt town.

[JaeReed]

My actions are not completely anti-Town. It's true that they have hurt Town. That includes two specific people in the Town, namely, the scum. The scum had no idea whether I was gambiting or genuine (until somehow word spread).

No, it didn't hurt scum. It muddled everything up to the point where no one could trust anything anymore. I can't get reads out of anything that happened there. Because we don't know who had what information and exactly when. Your gambit hurt town because town's reads are messed up from it.

Your gambit could have hurt town even more if we had a seer.

Your actions were anti-town.

[JaeReed]

I find it ironic that I townread everybody that JaeReed scumread and I scumread everybody that JaeReed townread. Complete mirror.

~Realeo

Honestly you can't really say this because even I don't know what my reads are anymore.

[JaeReed]

This is probably scum ^

"We can lynch my scum buddy today as long as we mislynch the next day, that will still give me a chance to win."

Honestly I could lynch you today too.

This is 100% valid accusation. Here's why I'm pushing.

If BTD flips town: I am fosed for towncreding
If BTD flips scum: I am fosed for buddying

How convenient. Double edged sword. I got wrong for any scenario. Why don't just go all out? I mean, it's super obvious I'm getting lynched tomorrow no matter the flip.

@JaeReed: You claimed to lynch BTD because he muddies the water. Say you lynch him,

a)Bang! He flips scum. Now what?
b)Bang! He flips town. Now what?

UNVOTE:

What are you thinking karnos flip will give us?

[JaeReed]

At this stage afaik it's a policy lynch. I already stated I don't like those. Also, there's no chance I don't push for a flip in lylo/mylo outside of {karnos, murder, d&a} because I have too much paranoia. You don't want me in lylo/mylo. I will lose the game for town. We cannot reach that stage. We need a scumflip.

[JaeReed]

It feels genuine though?

[JaeReed]

Real please summarize what we learn from karnos flip?

Murder, you don't normally have such an incisive tone. What's with that?

[JaeReed]

@JaeReed: Aren't we lynching BTD now? I mean, I'm pressing on Karnos lynch for D3 because I sincerely gave up. It's too much for defending him. We(sickofit+Realeo) already warn him for the gambit before D2 starts, so I just give up when he being put at L-1. You have no idea the chaos (and warning) in our whisper.

It's mentally taxing. Go scumread for this giving up. I can't care anymore.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The other reason I keep shouting for explanation is I want to know if BTD flips scum, who is bussing him. Bussing him in the name of "shitty gambit" is too easy. I don't want scum to get away with bus.

~Realeo

VOTE: karnos

L1

There. Give me your reasons please. If they don't make sense I can just move back.

[JaeReed]

Lol I don't think you've played that many games with me.

I've read some as well as playing with you. I've never seen you have a harsh tone like you've had with RS.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: BTD

Should never have moved off this.

[JaeReed]

Good day. Can I have seer report, please?

~Realeo

There is no seer. BTD fakeclaimed.

[JaeReed]

Lol I scumread BTD and chip from the start because their confirmations felt stiff. I couldn't get reads off those who went with /confirm and liked Charls easygoing confirmation.

[JaeReed]

*cough BTD and RS cough*

This.

I wanted RS to give his "case" and he didn't and I thought Nahdia wouldn't derp so I didn't bother saying in our PT not to sheep me...

I put too much faith in someone who is kinda lazy to actually read the thread before voting.

[JaeReed]

I said I was trusting D&A to read. Which she clearly didn't or she wouldn't have hammered lol.

[JaeReed]

Oh and BTW.

VOTE: ChipButty

I still need to confirm meta with Sickofit38, so hang tight!

Who do you think is the buddy?

[JaeReed]

@RS

I'm not sure if this will help you any with your enquiry. The ISO of Chip in a newbie that I played with him (I replaced in and started tunneling him because I thought he'd jumped on Kappy as lynchbait, but it turned out Kappy was just scum), and from another game which I think is Sick's experience with Chip.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p7894977
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p7939469

Chip was town in both of these iirc.

[JaeReed]

It's fine, Ranger. Look after yourself. <3

[JaeReed]

I guess the fact that I have you as scum either way suggests I should reevaluate, but it could also suggest that you are just scum. If BTD is town I would be inclined to think you are just white knighting.

I have a townread on RS from today. With no qt with them while previously scumreading them. I very much encourage you to re-evaluate

[JaeReed]

I'm fine with a hammer. BTD should never have survived this long.

[JaeReed]

Regardless of BTD's alignment I wanna point him to this:

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... _All_Liars

[JaeReed]

Because even though we have tied loose ends on what happens if BTD flips scum, we haven't tied loose ends on what happens if BTD flips town.

I believe I mentioned before that I am not going to make my voting preferences known from now.

[JaeReed]

GG MC.

I was right D1 rip. The vengekill choice was solid.

[JaeReed]

Yeah I made a horrendous mistake D2 that culminated in karnos' lynch. In the future I won't be so easy to back off my D1 reads. It happens way too often that they end up being right.

I lost lylo recently because I believed someone townslipped even though I knew the rest of the evidence pointed to them being the scum. So that was another lesson learned. Don't put "townslips" first in lylo.

My first two losses. :p

[JaeReed]

Yeah you were the obvious choice and I knew Nahdia would turn on me eventually too. Chip said he was betting the game on me being town so obviously I wanted to take him and RS and Char had to be my mislynches.

Pedit: yeah I agree with the above, Btd should have been lynched day 2 and RS should have been given more of a chance because his interaction with BTD made him unlikely to be his partner. If I weren't VLA I probably would have tried to stop the RS lynch and take him to lylo.

Well I was betting the game on charloux being town. RS trying to force the 1v1 there made me think he was town too so my choices would have been you and chip in whatever order.

However, if you brought Nahdia to lylo I was planning on auto voting her due to paranoia of her scumgame. I tried to not make that readily apparent hoping that she would get vengekilled for my strong read on her :p

[JaeReed]

Thanks, Ranger and Mhsmith! This game was probably my best scum game so far, although I probably shouldn't have told Charloux. If I hadn't, we could have gone the whole game with Town believing that I am the Seer.

By the way, Nahdia, are there any reasons you want to keep the QT private?

Omg no one believed you were the seer. You played so horribly that you had to claim D1. I basically won this for you by voting karnos because I wanted to hear RS out. You were so scummy that Nahdia counterclaimed you as a VT.

And yeah, there are reasons. I also request it to not be released (I already requested this in the PT during the game).

[JaeReed]

@bnl: Btd's claim was 100% designed to draw a cc. Could not possibly have been town motivated. Thus they needed to be lynched once they retracted. Fwiw, I'd say a fake cop claim pushed through could have won it, maybe in a sweep. Create a fake PoE, see what happens. Would be a ballsy play though.

Yeah if Nahdia had stuck with the CC it would have been an easy win. I was already convinced she was a VT like I was because of how in sync we were, but I wasn't going to call her out on that due to my strong townread of her at the time. I wouldn't have actually CC'ed him but it did cross my mind as soon as I saw what he'd claimed. Nahdia is just more ballsy than I am xP

[JaeReed]

Thanks, Ranger and Mhsmith! This game was probably my best scum game so far, although I probably shouldn't have told Charloux. If I hadn't, we could have gone the whole game with Town believing that I am the Seer.

By the way, Nahdia, are there any reasons you want to keep the QT private?

In fact, the only reason I didn't speedlynch you D2 was actually

because

Charloux told me that you admitted to fakeclaiming and Charl told me he was sure you were a VT gambiting. (He did also tell me not to trust his reads) But I was doing Charl the solid of not gunning for you out of the gate because of the BNL lynch Nahdia wanted which I was responsible for strongarming.

[JaeReed]

In other news, Murdercat I'm never believing a seemingly town reaction from you to being lynched again The tone was almost off due to appearing too calm, but the content was convincing to me, so I believe you played really well here and you did deserve the win.

[JaeReed]

Whoah.

JaeReed.
You hero-worship of me apparently paid off.

Whether you realize it or not...you just nailed the entire scumteam on page two.

I mean I know I flipped off them but... yessss stroke my ego!

[JaeReed]

I think it likely should have been open format. Room for fake claiming is pro wolf, possibly unbalances it.

I don't think so, tbh. I actually feel the setup was fine. The real issue I think ended up with the fact that a bunch of us (I think) are still pretty new to maf. I think I learned a lot from this game and I also don't believe it was particularly wolf-sided.

I just made a bunch of really silly mistakes this game and I'm sorry that town had to suffer for it. It was a good learning experience for me.