Micro 648: Mystery Box Mafia - 't is gedaan!

[GuiltyLion]

Hey everyone

I am currently

ascetic

, this means I cannot be targeted by non-killing night actions, so if you have an action and you think there will be pro-town utility in targeting me, I suggest you look elsewhere.

However, I may (or may not) switch out my role from the Mystery Box, so I'll update you all if I decide to do that

VOTE: Flames682

L-1

[GuiltyLion]

NJAC why are you voting someone who hasn't posted yet

[GuiltyLion]

I am currently ascetic

Why exactly do you think it's a good idea to reveal that info this early?

NJAC why are you voting someone who hasn't posted yet

Partly RVS, partly Meta. Do you think I should vote someone different?

Because for townies with abilities - investigative, protective, roleblock, whatever - that ability is better spent on a person it will actually affect. Any ability spent targeting someone ascetic is a complete waste. It's pro-town to claim and therefore I claim in my first post, and it would be distracting or misleading if I bring it up later towards day end. Nothing would be gained from hiding that I'm currently ascetic.

What meta is relevant here? Why are you continuing RVS on page 2 when there are already posts and wagons to be participating in or commenting on?

I'm not gonna tell you where to put your vote at the moment, but I think it's worth pressing you on why you made a useless one.

[GuiltyLion]

I think Maruchan is town even for that hammer, he's trying to get in useful thoughts before threadlock

[GuiltyLion]

actually I retract that, on closer inspection his posts afterwards aren't that useful

[GuiltyLion]

yeh well I mean it's hard without Flames flip, but I think you and Expedience are town, NJAC is a meh, would push on him more as game continues. That's all I got. TBH hammering there is pretty bold for scum!Maruchan so I'm still inclined to townread him, but it's not foolproof

I was kinda hoping Not_Mafia would post because he normally recklessly approaches the Day1 hammer and I thought L-1'ing a scummy slot early would be a good way of reading him. I'm not really unhappy with this lynch but it would've been helpful to get more out of this day

[GuiltyLion]

gigaByte I can see either way, the townread of me is a little too easy but the posting feels relatively genuine on first read

[GuiltyLion]

On first impression I doubt scum!gigabyte would openly encourage the Flames wagon along in 40, unless he has a history with Flames and Flames is usually mislynchable, but yeh page 2 reads

also if Flames flips scum then I'd say the wagon is very likely all-town

[GuiltyLion]

On first impression I doubt scum!gigabyte would openly encourage the Flames wagon along in 40, unless he has a history with Flames and Flames is usually mislynchable, but yeh page 2 reads

also if Flames flips scum then I'd say the wagon is very likely all-town

I disagree.

One of the first few voters could have RVS lol!voted for their scumpartner hoping to use it later for vote count analysis or whatever, and been dragged along for the ride without realizing it.

If there's scum on the wagon and Flames is scum, I'd say only for RyanK would this argument be plausible, and even then I'd still look into NJAC or Not_Mafia first.

If Flames is scum, his scumpartner certainly wouldn't be House or Maruchan. giga maaaybe, but they kept up with it in 40, and that post doesn't exactly leave them much room to back off later.

[GuiltyLion]

Flames you town?

[GuiltyLion]

Maruchan why are you arguing with lynched town

[GuiltyLion]

hmm fair

do you think I am scummy for asking you that question?

[GuiltyLion]

okay I think Maruchan is coming across townie here

@Maruchan - I doubt lynched scum would have claimed they were town. I mean this could just be WIFOM twilight trolling, but I think it'd be really disadvantageous for scum!Flames to twilight post as if he were town, because if he flips scum then I've indisputably townslipped

[GuiltyLion]

final twilight reads:

town: {House, Maruchan, Expedience}
meh: {gigabyte, RyanK}
scum: {NJAC}

i'll be around for any other qs before threadlock

[GuiltyLion]

@House - His questions feel leading and his vote on Not_Mafia was in fact useless, even if he disagrees. The way he casually says "I don't like the wagon on Flames" without explaining why or pushing on people who voted Flames looks like scum WK-ing a mislynch.

[GuiltyLion]

like Not_Mafia is not a player who will alignment-tell based off of an RVS vote on him. The fact that NJAC tried to use "meta" to justify that as a reason to vote him doesn't make sense.

[GuiltyLion]

I am currently ascetic

Why exactly do you think it's a good idea to reveal that info this early?

NJAC why are you voting someone who hasn't posted yet

Partly RVS, partly Meta. Do you think I should vote someone different?

Scum claiming ascetic is usually a terrible idea whether they are really ascetic or not

Why exactly is that a terrible idea in this setup?

These questions. "Why exactly" is just an altogether scummy phrase in general IMO.

Yes, I automatically start to suspect people who RVS vote when there's already wagons and discussion happening. Instead of taking a stance either way on Flames (or even RyanK, the possible counterwagon), NJAC just votes a slot that hasn't posted yet. It's safe and not-productive.

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not saying he's definitely scum, he could just be cagey, but he's definitely giving the most scummy pings so far relative to the other posts, especially given a town!Flames

I've played with Not_Mafia a lot. I have experience with him myself. The idea that he'd react in a significant way to a lone RVS vote is a joke.

[GuiltyLion]

So I was also a neapolitan in addition to being ascetic, which is why I didn't trade the role.

I investigated RyanK and the action failed. I cannot be roleblocked, so I believe he is also ascetic, and he did not claim it.

VOTE: RyanK

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not saying he's definitely scum, he could just be cagey, but he's definitely giving the most scummy pings so far relative to the other posts, especially given a town!Flames

I've played with Not_Mafia a lot. I have experience with him myself. The idea that he'd react in a significant way to a lone RVS vote is a joke.

You have only played with Non_Mafia at the most 5 times. Why did you claim you play with Not_Mafia a lot.

Is 5 times not a lot? I haven't actually counted but I feel even just two or three games is enough experience to understand someone's playstyle. Further, I have read several other games he has played.

The point is that NJAC claiming that "meta" justified his RVS vote on NM is bad. Do you disagree?

[GuiltyLion]

Elaborate how my questions feel "leading". WRT Flames: House voted him based on Flames' RVS vote, I think Flames' response to it was good. I saw nothing scummy from Flames. The way some players were jumping on that wagon seemed opportunistic (e.g.: Ryank's). It was page 2 and I didn't want to put someone at L-1 that early, even more considering that N_M is playing this game.

I was tempted to vote Ryank, but as I said, I wanted to hear more from Expedience. Meanwhile I thought my vote would be fine on N_M.

Look, I can't explain exactly how my gut works, but the way you ask questions reads to me like you're trying to pressure solely for the sake of pressure, making people explain vague things they said rather than actually trying to discern their alignment. It may be playstyle-clash so I will give you some towncred if you are willing to wagon and lynch scum!RyanK with me.

What about Flames' response to House was good? And again, you're saying your vote was "fine" but that's not an argument that it would help game-solve.

P-EDIT: giga I suggest you wait to weigh in until we hear from RyanK

[GuiltyLion]

So I was also a neapolitan in addition to being ascetic, which is why I didn't trade the role.

I investigated RyanK and the action failed. I cannot be roleblocked, so I believe he is also ascetic, and he did not claim it.

VOTE: RyanK

Why did you decide to investigate him?

I'm not saying he's definitely scum, he could just be cagey, but he's definitely giving the most scummy pings so far relative to the other posts, especially given a town!Flames

I've played with Not_Mafia a lot. I have experience with him myself. The idea that he'd react in a significant way to a lone RVS vote is a joke.

NJAC presented a good question, made me revisit Guilty's ISO where i found this.

Guilty, why didn't you investigate NJAC if you were suspicious of him?

I don't investigate scumreads, I presume that they will be lynched without me needing night actions. In regular setups, it's also very awkward if you get a town result on a scumread as a cop to do a complete about-face on them the next day without giving away that you're investigative. So generally I investigate null reads, and in this game I picked RyanK as he had one post, was on a mislynch wagon, and I figured if I got a VT result then I could play it slow and see who tried to push him and why

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not sure if I was ascetic. Here's the situation. I was hated before I changed my role in the night. After I changed my role, I was ascetic.

I can buy that.

Me too.

I also buy it
UNVOTE:

[GuiltyLion]

I'm finding House's D2 play to be vaguely scummy, and NJAC scummier still

VOTE: NJAC

[GuiltyLion]

p r o d g e b o y s

will bring content tomorrow

[GuiltyLion]

House isn't claiming at L-1 with intent, either.

If you people want to derp lynch me, you can learn about my role from the mod because I'm dead anyway so I refuse to reward town after being so stupid.

Wow this is a bad post. House is trying to soft a power role but not actually claim it, to deflect votes off of him without having to commit to a claim ahead of time. The attempt at AtE is pretty visibly fake as well. You get rope

VOTE: House

[GuiltyLion]

GuiltyLion, if you are the kind of player who cares this early in the gamestate, who's NJAC's partner? Because right now with my reads his partner (Not_Mafia) makes zero sense, but that tends to happen when you use PoE to find partners.

I'm having second thoughts on scum!NJAC at the moment, and I would quite like for him to powerlynch House with us today. If he avoids the House wagon after his distancing vote then I'd say NJAC-House team would be my pick, mostly because I'm townreading everyone else (especially RyanK and Expedience)

[GuiltyLion]

This bugs me.

You seem to have zero interest in a player's alignment after you decide they are lynch-worthy, but there is also value in stopping mislynches because it narrows the PoE pool while also preventing a possible mislynch which allows you to build a team of confirmed town to take to end game or until you do get your guilty because scum don't kill likely mislynch candidates.

Undermining a lynch wagon on an inno without outing results is doable, and that feels like a scummy copout. Hell, even if you out the results, you can simply change out the role!

On top of that, ascetic is a really poor modifier for town because it prevents any sort of protective role from targeting you and leaves you open to the night kill, yet you are clinging onto it as a prize.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

This is a scum vote, here's why:

"You seem to have zero interest in a player's alignment after I decide they are lynchworthy" - there is no post where I ever said this, House is putting words into my mouth. For example, I flipped my read on RyanK once he responded to my push on him at the start of D2. House doesn't see this because House's goal is to paint me as scum.

Further, House embellishes/misreps when he says I "cling onto [being ascetic] as a prize". I claimed it D1 because I planned to use my investigate N1, and therefore wanted to make sure no one wasted night actions on me.

I have since changed my role, I am no longer ascetic

House pulls the idea that I would have kept my role later out of nowhere. I never once said I planned to keep the role deeper into the game, but House's goal is to paint me as scum, not to see my alignment.

Finally, House has been constantly asking me meaningless questions today. "Why didn't you investigate [x]? Shouldn't you have investigated [x] instead?". If I am scum, I can claim to have investigated whoever I want, and invent reasons for why I investigated them appropriately. There's no way to "catch" me as scum by pursuing this line of questioning, rather, House's goal is to spread some idea that I am "scummy" for not investigating who he thinks a town player would have investigated. It should be clear that this is not a genuine town thought process, the goal is to invent reasons to vote me.

His other question is "why did you keep this role", which is a slightly better question, but still fruitless. Again, if I'm scum and I'm lying about my role, I can say whatever I want. If I really am ascetic, it is pro-town to claim ascetic regardless of my alignment. Like we've said already, the only scum!motivation for not claiming ascetic would be if I want to gambit on wasting a town night action by baiting one. I kept the role because it had an investigative ability in addition to the modifier and I thought it would be worth using on N1 instead of immediately trading.

[GuiltyLion]

I can tell you right now that NJAC is a VT, which is why I've been eyeballing you for a while.

I don't believe this "result" at all, it's pretty obvious you're flailing now. You opened the day with this post:

For all intents and purposes, my vote is on NJAC.

Why would you say that if you got a VT-result on NJAC?

[GuiltyLion]

We're supposed to have deduced that you actually have a cop-innocent on him from that post? Nope, not buying it. You're only clearing him now because:

a) You think it might save you
b) When you flip scum, it creates WIFOM over whether NJAC is your partner or legitimately a VT

Further, there are other reasons why only claiming your result now that you had serious attention and vote pressure is not how a town cop plays.

First off, it poisons any trust in your alignment to claim results so late in the day without an obvious crumb. Your claim has the scum!motivation I've already outlined above, and if you were a real town cop you would have done a much better job setting yourself up not to be lynched, by having a solid result claim from the beginning of the day.

Second, If someone else (such as Not_Mafia, since he is claiming hated) was turbolynched at some point today before you outed this VT-result, then you would have left no trace in your ISO that you had a hard-innocent on NJAC, and if you flipped as a cop later then we'd be left wondering what you did on N1 - given this setup, we'd probably conclude that you traded and only received an investigative role on D2.

[GuiltyLion]

You were pushing NJAC for loopy shit, so I wanted to give you a tasty wagon to see if you'd latch on and continue your assault.

There was no way he was getting lynched, though.

I'm not going to get into any more mud-slinging with you. I hope the rest of the town can see for themselves the scumminess and monologic in this post (and the many, many of the others you have made).

If your name isn't House and you have questions and need further convincing then hit me up, but I'm not moving my vote today.

[GuiltyLion]

Lol, typical scum maneuvering... Rage OMGUS once getting called out and pretend to ignore me.

Okay I know I just said I wouldn't respond, but I can't resist pointing this out - there's literally no rage in my posts. Further, I gave many legitimate reasons as to why you are obvious scum that have nothing to do with OMGUS. Just to recap:

1. When you started getting votes, you softed a valuable PR and also threw up AtE
2. You justified your vote on me with several misreps, particularly "you are clinging to ascetic" when that's bluntly not true. I traded my role already
3. You claiming to have a VT-result on NJAC is not reflected in your ISO from earlier today. It has scum motivation in both trying to save your ass and also creating WIFOM about NJAC's (the other primary scumspect) alignment.

[GuiltyLion]

and
4. "Why didn't you investigate [x]" and "Why did you keep your ascetic role" [which also, I had already explained] are not legitimate scum-hunting questions, they are busywork. This is the reason why I said a couple days ago that I found House's play to be vaguely scummy.

[GuiltyLion]

oh man, are we breaking out the self-meta now?

This is my last post for tonight, I promise, I have other things to attend to

[GuiltyLion]

Lol, typical scum maneuvering... Rage OMGUS once getting called out and pretend to ignore me.

Okay I know I just said I wouldn't respond, but I can't resist pointing this out - there's literally no rage in my posts. Further, I gave many legitimate reasons as to why you are obvious scum that have nothing to do with OMGUS. Just to recap:

1. When you started getting votes, you softed a valuable PR and also threw up AtE
2. You justified your vote on me with several misreps, particularly "you are clinging to ascetic" when that's bluntly not true. I traded my role already
3. You claiming to have a VT-result on NJAC is not reflected in your ISO from earlier today. It has scum motivation in both trying to save your ass and also creating WIFOM about NJAC's (the other primary scumspect) alignment.

I don't think I can get a read on House, but I've read this over and 3) is the only point that I'm worried by.

1) is a towntell, 2) seems tenuous and I think House would do that as town

Otherwise, more sure you are town now. Not sure how to read NJAC.

How on Earth is 1) a towntell? 1 is in no way a towntell, it's incredibly scummy. Especially given that House left no discernible crumb or result-soft in his day opening, in fact,

he voted and pushed the player he allegedly had an "innocent" result on

. That's not how a town PR plays. Further, House's anger is just transparently fake. I'm honestly kinda surprised anyone can read his 240 and 258 and see that as town.

[GuiltyLion]

You wanna mislynch me because I'm not a proper little stereotypical townie? Whatever. But Expedience, you should know damned well there's nothing typical about my town game so you just have yourself to blame.

Assuming that House is scum then this line makes Expedience conf-town, he's talking to Expedience as if he already knows Expedience is town

[GuiltyLion]

What is the case on House, Neapolitan is often confused with vanilla cop, I modded a normal centerwd around it and everyone got it confused

can you just read House's + my posts

House is scumtelling left and right

[GuiltyLion]

whoever is town out of NJAC/gigabyte needs to shape up and vote scum!House

like, completely independently of the whole neapolitan claim/results deal, his AtE and misreps on me still speak volumes as to his alignment. Please reread my 318. And also see how he is literally incapable of letting me post anything without rushing in to argue and try to start more game-spamming shit-flinging. He's

painfully

obvious scum.

that's about all I have right now.

[GuiltyLion]

But your explanation in 356 isn't consistent with that.

In 356: "I thought neapolitan was a vanilla cop because I didn't realize goons counted as vanilla"
In 209: "neapolitan is vanilla cop because neapolitan checks if someone is vanilla and goons are also vanilla"

He's given two contradictory explanations for his behavior. Even if he was telling the truth about "lel i voted my clear for reactions", he can't simultaneously have gotten a "vanilla" (instead of "VT") result on NJAC.

Check my games. I've never been Neapolitan OR a role cop. I thought "Vanilla" meant "Vanilla Town".

Then i realized that goons were vanilla mafia.

For Jesus' sake, my confusion isn't that hard to follow.

356. Liar.

here's yet another reason why House is scum (and Expedience consequently conftown) - he's calling Expedience a "liar" in this post, but he also constantly speaks to Expedience as if Expedience is town, he's repeatedly referred to how strongly he's townreading Expedience. If House truly believed Expedience is town then House would not assume Expedience is lying in any of his posts. Townies don't immediately discredit and accuse their townreads of misleading behavior.

Why would his immediate response to Expedience calling him out for a contradiction be to call him a "liar"? He's scum, aggressively snapping at anyone who tries to push him. House needs to win arguments, not sort alignments.

[GuiltyLion]

Guilty, you didn't seem concerned with or even acknowledged my unvote. Who do you think is scum with House?

I've mostly focused on the objective aspects of House's claim and explanations given for his behavior because I find it impossible to tell whether or not his confidence levels are genuine. The "liar" thing is something that I don't find alignment indicative because of this. He discredits people like that all the time as either alignment I think. I can understand your desire to lynch House and it looks mostly town to me.

I think it's either NJAC or Gigabyte, I'm currently leaning gigabyte and would lynch him today because I do find his hard-defense of House to be pretty suspect and forced. I feel in his defense of House he is set against the conclusion of my (and your) arguments about scum!House first, and then justifying his conclusion after it's made.

Can you show me a game where town!House engaged in petty slapfights, misrepped repeatedly, and accused his townreads of being liars when they pushed him? Because I'm sitting here as town seeing his push on me look incredibly aggressive/disingenuous, and it's getting to where I don't see how I can imagine him as anything but scum. If this is truly his townplay then he's going to cause us to lose, because he is doing nothing to show me a town alignment behind his posts, is currently tunneled on town, and seems incapable of letting me post and talk to others without trying to provoke me.

[GuiltyLion]

I ISOed Guilty and I'm definitely not a fan of his posts.

His early push on me D1 seems forced. He tried to set up a mislynch on me during twilight. He never adressed my defense on his accusations. He doesn't seem interested in determining my alignment but in throwing shade on me.

I dropped my push on you and looked elsewhere today - how was my twilight action trying to set up a mislynch if I stopped following through on it? I was giving reads and trying to create content because we had such a quick lynch, and actually managed to sort Maruchan correctly out of it.

He has tried to manipulate my vote:

I will give you some towncred if you are willing to wagon and lynch scum!RyanK with me.

I'm having second thoughts on scum!NJAC at the moment, and I would quite like for him to powerlynch House with us today. If he avoids the House wagon after his distancing vote then I'd say NJAC-House team would be my pick

To respond to your earlier point, here what you call vote-manipulating is me trying to sort your alignment. I liked it when you voted House and I hated it when you unvoted. What do you think about my case/points about House? I'd like you to address those.

@Guilty, same question I asked to Expedience: am I scum for not having the same reads you have?

You could be! Because I'm town, so you're currently pushing a mislynch, and you're also ignoring a case I feel is on pretty obvious scum. If you have a nullread on House, why aren't you talking to him?

Pushes on Ryank and House seem also mislynch attempts.

My push on RyanK was a reaction test to follow up from my night action. I feel RyanK has since been town and I dropped it pretty immediately. Calling that a "mislynch attempt" is weak.

Are you saying you think House is a mislynch just because I'm pushing him? Because that's atrocious reasoning built entirely on an incorrect assumption (scum!GL), and it's especially weak here since you apparently aren't even townreading House yourself.

[GuiltyLion]

@GuiltyLion: You ignored some questions I made to you. Please answer:

What about Flames' response to House was good? And again, you're saying your vote was "fine" but that's not an argument that it would help game-solve.

Better question:

what about Flames' response was scummy in your eyes?

I saw a natural response to explain an RVS vote, and to deal with House's pressure.

This is a stupid question and I'm not sure why you're insisting on following up on it, but at the time I felt Flames was overexplaining his vote by saying he turned off auto-correct and engaging in an argument about why he could have copy/pasted. It just didn't seem like something town should (or would) concern themselves with. 23 is also a WIFOMy post about getting lynched and I always see scum!motivation in that.

I'm finding House's D2 play to be vaguely scummy, and NJAC scummier still

VOTE: NJAC

Please elaborate.

What do you want me to elaborate? I still find your posting obnoxiously leading, and your reads bad. You ignore commenting on things I think should be central topics of discussion, and you push on stuff that I find rather useless in determining alignment. Not hard scumtells, but definitely not towntells either.

[GuiltyLion]

Guilty, you didn't seem concerned with or even acknowledged my unvote. Who do you think is scum with House?

I've mostly focused on the objective aspects of House's claim and explanations given for his behavior because I find it impossible to tell whether or not his confidence levels are genuine. The "liar" thing is something that I don't find alignment indicative because of this. He discredits people like that all the time as either alignment I think. I can understand your desire to lynch House and it looks mostly town to me.

One other point with respect to this - if House is town, then who's scum? It's not me, we would both agree it's not you, I strongly doubt RyanK with how he responded to my initial vote/push today, which leaves {GB, NJAC, N_M}. I believe if scumteam was 2 of those 3 then at least one of them would be capitalizing on an easy House mislynch, but instead I feel like I have to put in tons of effort to get this obvscum lynched. All three of them are ignoring the case/wagon on House (again - ignoring the neapolitan claim completely, he's still scummy as fuck -

everyone reread 318 and see the misreps

), so I'd say if House is somehow town then you have both scum WKing him (or in the case of N_M, ignoring altogether), and I just think that's rather unlikely as a Day2 gamestate.

[GuiltyLion]

House isn't claiming at L-1 with intent, either.

If you people want to derp lynch me, you can learn about my role from the mod because I'm dead anyway so I refuse to reward town after being so stupid.

and again, if House is really a town neapolitan, he made this post without ever having crumbed his result on NJAC. He's implying he is important, yet simultaneously refusing to give useful information to town.

that's not how town plays

[GuiltyLion]

This is a stupid question and I'm not sure why you're insisting on following up on it, but at the time I felt Flames was overexplaining his vote by saying he turned off auto-correct and engaging in an argument about why he could have copy/pasted. It just didn't seem like something town should (or would) concern themselves with. 23 is also a WIFOMy post about getting lynched and I always see scum!motivation in that.

It's not a stupid question. You helped to mislynch the guy. I'm assuming there was at least one scum on that wagon.

I have more questions, btw:

1) Who are your town reads and why?

2) You criticized my vote on N_M. How are you planning to determine his alignment?

Sorry yes, I agree if you are town it's not stupid per se, I just think it's silly because Flames already flipped town and so any explanation I give for scumreading him is going to be biased by that fact, and unfortunately the day happened so quickly that I didn't express my reasons prior to the lynch. When I respond, you're working with stale/manipulatable info regardless of my alignment - like, I'm town in this instance, but if I were scum it'd be easy to make up some crap as a response as to why I was scumreading Flames after-the-fact.

1) Expedience - has been posting genuine, useful posts all game, I have followed everything he's said 100% and I don't smell scum!motivation whatsoever. As an example, posts like 294 very rarely come from scum, Expedience is clarifying a miscommunication between two players and not using it to twist words or make easy votes.

RyanK - I think if he were scum he would have discredited my claim about investigating him with the action failing. The way he explained that he had traded and received an ascetic role both a) made sense and b) felt genuine, he didn't try to argue with me whatsoever. Also, he's dumbtelling/making-odd-votes in a way that strikes me as townie, he's not being self-conscious about his reasons/posts when he pushes on people.

NJAC - Tbh I feel your last few posts have been rather town, and I do feel you are making an effort to interact with and sort all of the players in the game. Also when I reread your conversation with House in 238 to 242, I don't see that as a Scum-Scum interaction.

2) I can't make N_M respond to pressure/questions, so the way I plan on sorting him is just seeing if his reads make sense and whether he votes any easy mislynches. I haven't actually ever played with scum!N_M, but I do find in my past games with him as town that he will leave a trail of discernible reads + pushes given enough time, and he is absolutely capable at finding scum. I am unimpressed with his work in this game so far.

[GuiltyLion]

...
@Maruchan - I doubt lynched scum would have claimed they were town. I mean this could just be WIFOM twilight trolling, but I think it'd be really disadvantageous for scum!Flames to twilight post as if he were town, because if he flips scum then

I've indisputably townslipped

What do you mean?

I was mostly joking/being cheeky, but the point was that if Flames was scum, then I would be hypothetically townslipping by assuming that he was telling the truth about being town. Which is why scum don't usually pretend to be town in twilight, it just creates more chances for townies to obvtown themselves and their partners - if they choose to post in twilight - have to conceal that they know the flipped person is still lying.

[GuiltyLion]

mod - House is banned, is he going to be replaced? Can we get a pause on deadline until that happens?

[GuiltyLion]

I admit you have some valid points against House, but I also think it could be a problem with his play style.

Hearing that he was banned for abusive behavior does make me think the aggressive arguing with me may be more a playstyle tell than an alignment tell, but I still have fundamental problems with his original push on me and the fact that he didn't crumb any NJAC result until wagoned.

Also, I went back and checked my role PM today, and my ability explicitly said that Neapolitan investigate is a check on whether a player is "town vanilla", so this:

Why does getting "Vanilla/Not Vanilla" results as well as being untargetable for anything except kills make it a desirable role?

You're a sitting duck for the night kill, and your results don't serve any realistic purpose in a role madness game.

I believe to be a scumslip. I'm not moving my vote today.

[GuiltyLion]

^That's L-1, for the record

[GuiltyLion]

I don't really have much else to add, until/unless we get a House replacement. House is scum, I want this stated completely unequivocally. If it takes my green flip to convince the rest of you, then so be it. I am also more firmly in town!NJAC camp, I think the partner is either GB or N_M.

[GuiltyLion]

I find 470 to be pretty townish actually

let's just lynch House/Vax today and worry about the partner tomorrow

[GuiltyLion]

while I disagree with GB ruling out the idea of a {House, N_M} team, I think their reasoning is town-oriented.

Also I am sorry for the pronoun mistakes, I apologize.

[GuiltyLion]

it's cool

why is my reasoning town-oriented though?

I could just see myself as town in your shoes making that post. Like, I don't agree with you re: NJAC/House being the only House scumteam, but if you are convinced of that then everything that follows makes sense re:flipping House and also accepting your own (presumed mis-)lynch if House flips scum. It makes you far less likely to be a House scumbuddy in my mind.

and can you talk to me about why scum!House derails town!NJAC's mislynch?

I'm guessing House did figure out that NJAC was a VT somehow, and thought that "clearing" NJAC would give him enough towncred to survive today. I also don't think NJAC was very likely to be lynched at the time of House's 315 - I had already moved my vote to House and I don't think most other people were expressing a firm desire to lynch NJAC. He had zero votes at the time.

[GuiltyLion]

It took some time to catch up. I'm just going to post some thoughts here as I read through.

Why in the world did the scum kill the derp voter, seemed like a valuable asset for them. I was planning on voting him until I read he was NK'd.

I played my first game with RyanK (I think it was his 1st or 2nd) and he is playing pretty similar. (lots of votes, and randomness)

Can anyone read not-mafia? He has posted so little. All one sentences. Here is his only contribution longer than that: 393

People always tell me posting frequency is not alignment indicative, but I always look into players who post infrequently and too much. Not mafia and my slot comes to mind.
First I asked myself, Vaxkiller, are you scum? I replied, "of course not, you are a good person"! Now to look into Not-mafia more.

There is literally nothing there. (On a side note, is posting "ego" some sort of meme on this site?)

Can you claim?

We don't have much time left, and it's important.

House already claimed Neapolitan, what makes you think I would claim differently.

Ryan, voting a no lynch is a terrible idea. We only get 2 more miss-lynches before we lose and voting no-lynch would count as such.

Since the only person lurking cant really be analysed at all, I also like to look at the middle of wagons (I would have been all over that accidental hammer (to me there are no accidents), but he actually turned out town.)

So gigabyte,

Ryan

, and guilty are in what I like to call the scum sweet spot (middle of the wagon). Ryan I believe is town, but I'm going to go through gigabytes and guilty's iso's now.

This catchup, again, looks transparently scummy to me. Like I know I'm already sold on scum!House but here are my problems with it:

-Random distancing comment on the NK
-empty comment on N_M
-joking about his slot's activity, feels awkward
-there are no real hard reads or comments on anything, other than an idea that GB/GL are possible scum due to our positions on the wagon (which is not very logical anyway, since the Flames wagon happened rapidly out of RVS, I see no obvious reason to assume that it must follow normal wagon patterns/probabilities).

There's no attempt to interact or engage with anyone, it's just commentary.

[GuiltyLion]

Well, I said before that House has to be town, because him claiming VT on me doesn't look like good scum play.

is this a "too scummy to be scum" argument? Does it look like good town play?

[GuiltyLion]

jfc guys Vax is scum

[GuiltyLion]

I'm getting kind of sick of every point I bring against House being handwaved with "but House playstyle" or "but House meta". He's been doing scummy shit in this game all the way back to the 1v1 with Flames on Page 1. And Vax's posts on this page are also scummy on their own as well. If I live to see the sun tomorrow I'll bring the case

[GuiltyLion]

Look, I can't explain exactly how my gut works, but the way you ask questions reads to me like you're trying to pressure solely for the sake of pressure, making people explain vague things they said rather than actually trying to discern their alignment.

I hate gut reads. If you can't explain it, it's not really there. I always say scum are full of guts.

Is "the way you ask questions reads to me like you're trying to pressure solely for the sake of pressure, making people explain vague things they said rather than actually trying to discern their alignment." not sufficient explanation? You're just jumping on the phrase "gut" without actually interacting with what I said.

I don't investigate scumreads, I presume that they will be lynched without me needing night actions. In regular setups, it's also very awkward if you get a town result on a scumread as a cop to do a complete about-face on them the next day without giving away that you're investigative. So generally I investigate null reads, and in this game I picked RyanK as he had one post, was on a mislynch wagon, and I figured if I got a VT result then I could play it slow and see who tried to push him and why

If you're town you really shouldn't be so worried about how things look.

I already explained why it was scummy when House was trying to pin me for some kind of scum!motivation in who I chose to investigate, you're doing the same thing here. Are you accusing me of lying about why I chose to investigate RyanK? If so, why did scum!me choose to lie about RyanK in the way that I did, and why did scum!me make up these reasons to justify my investigation? And how would scum!me have known for certain that he was ascetic?

How else should a catch up post look? I'm entering the game as a new player with a new and different view on the game. I feel like this scum setup post for tomorrow, so he has something to refer to right off the bat (about Vaxkiller)

Vax is projecting in this post. What Vaxkiller doesn't acknowledge is that I made my 503 well before the GB counterwagon kicked off, and have maintained that his slot is scum LONG before I pointed out what was scummy about his catchup. Also he then afterwards says this referring to GB:

I think he listed guilty as a scum read in preparation to vote for him, but then changed his mind because he could just steal some flimsy reasoning for voting me instead (really just someone elses reasoning he has been conveniently ignoring all this time, he even admits to it) The guiltylion town to scum to town isn't even explained. I think this makes guilty town when giga flips scum, I can't see a giga-guilty scum team.

which would completely invalidate his point about me "setting him up" for tomorrow - you can't say that GB is scum but I was simultaneously crafting a plan to push you the next day, yet we were not scum together. That's not coherent reasoning, you just had to dress up your hammer as if you actually believed GB was scum.

You should have just pretended you townread GB but had to hammer him at deadline as your CW

[GuiltyLion]

Vax I cannot see a world without you as scum. I'll give you one reach out here since we are in LYLO - if you're town, then who is town out of {NJAC, Expedience, Not_Mafia}?

[GuiltyLion]

also I was an odd-night vanillizer last night, so I have no night-action to report. I plan on trading that role today because I don't see the value of vanilla-izing on N3 if we lynch correctly, but I am willing to talk about the mechanic first and see if people have opinions on trading/not-trading to generate more information.

[GuiltyLion]

@Guilty: does your role specifically say odd-night or odd-turn?

odd nights. it's a passive modifier.

Is anyone else planning on trading their role today? Expedience maybe you should check before anyone trades, and then if the role is useful then someone can trade for it and be forced to use it in a pro-town manner tonight, assuming that we don't mislynch. I'm still not clear on exactly how the box works, it might still be my ascetic neapolitan role sitting in there from when I traded yesterday, if no one picked it up.

[GuiltyLion]

Vax I cannot see a world without you as scum. I'll give you one reach out here since we are in LYLO - if you're town, then who is town out of {NJAC, Expedience, Not_Mafia}?

Put on some glasses and your thinking cap.
Whats a reach out?
NJAC. Why would you ask that? He was investigated and was VT.

reach out = assuming for a second that you are town, in order to try to consider possibilities for the world we're in if you're not scum.

I actually forgot about the NJAC inno when I asked you that, but I was curious to see if you would name two people in that group as town or just pick one. regardless I guess either Vax is scum or NJAC is conftown, so a NJAC lynch is not gonna be in consideration for me today.

[GuiltyLion]

I am open to changing my mind, if we're TvTing then the game would currently be in a lost state

[GuiltyLion]

Yes, considering the current state of the game. I would say Not mafia and expedience. I know its WIFOM but with ryan being the NK, guilty seems more likely town.

my initial take on this is I think it's less likely to come from scum!Vax than town!Vax

scum!Vax could spend today arguing and discrediting me and forcing a 1v1 for the rest of town, with the chance of getting a winning game-mislynch on me. Even if he's lynched instead, I would probably get NK'd and leave a N_M/Expedience/NJAC LYLO with nobody cleared which is not bad for scum.

scum!Vax's only motivation in posting this would be to buddy me and get me onto his desired mislynch between N_M and Expedience rather than encouraging me to continue to push him. But he's answering to NJAC here, it's not like he was trying to shut down my push and placate me directly. It looks more townie, most scum don't have the composure to mostly ignore a townie that's aggressively pushing/casing them in LYLO.

NJAC what do you think?

[GuiltyLion]

I'm here, not voting yet

[GuiltyLion]

You realize this vote accompanied with no instant follow up lynch makes you scum right?

Town wouldn't have hemmed and hawwed

both of these posts are bad

why is this game so hard

[GuiltyLion]

I'm stuck deciding between scum N_M + [Expedience/Vax] world, or scum Vax+NJAC world

neither strikes me as impossible or unplausible

[GuiltyLion]

nonplausible is the correct word?

Not_Mafia I feel you're only seriously trying now that it's LYLO, you coasted through D2. GTMH I think I'd vote you, at the moment, because I can see you as scum with Vax or Expedience and I'm scared of the world where Vax is town

[GuiltyLion]

I need to think through the votes here

N_M voting NJAC first is a brave move if he's scum, given Expedience and I both voiced townreads on NJAC
Vax jumping in to vote N_M is off to me, I'm not sure town would be confident enough to immediately vote there, although the only quickhammer from his point of view (conftown!NJAC) would be from GL+Expedience team

NJAC wavering on N_M vote would fit with a scumVax/NJAC team, but I'm not sure it wouldn't come from town either.
(p-edit basically what Expedience just said, but scum!N_M would also know that town!GL and town!Expedience wouldn't quickhammer)

Why did you say town wouldn't hem/haw?

[GuiltyLion]

expedience/Vax team could hammer NJAC if Expedience was confident Vax would be here, the longer this doesn't happen the more likely it rules out Exp+Vax team

[GuiltyLion]

You realize that, in the remote case you're town, and Expedience and Guilty are scum, you're losing us the game, right?

NJAC, why did this not apply to Vax's vote on N_M

[GuiltyLion]

actually yeah N_M is right, there's no reason for town!NJAC not to revote him here

[GuiltyLion]

I'm struggling with NJAC voting/unvoting within the same minute in 585 and 586, I feel like that shouldn't come from either alignment because it shows a lack of forethought about the consequences of the vote

but I'm tempted to say it's more likely to come from scum

[GuiltyLion]

so Expedience are you leaning Vax/NJAC now?

[GuiltyLion]

You realize this vote accompanied with no instant follow up lynch makes you scum right?

I want to be hesitant to think scum would chainsaw for their partner so blatantly like this, but I can't fathom that Vax seriously believes 2 hours would be enough time for a scum quickhammer.

Yeah, no. N_M is scum. Otherwise I would have been insta-lynched at this point.

same thing here, NJAC parroting Vax before Expedience/I had even posted in thread. I don't want to confbias myself but this is heavy evidence for Vax/NJAC imo

[GuiltyLion]

You realize that, in the remote case you're town, and Expedience and Guilty are scum, you're losing us the game, right?

I just can't grok why you didn't consider scum!Vax here

[GuiltyLion]

gah, I got paralyzed by LYLO doubts. I should have pushed Vax harder today, but I was so worried about the 15-20% chance of N_M+Vax or offchance N_M+Expedience team, and I didn't want to vote NJAC even though he did keep pinging me.

Thanks for modding Smeagol! I'll add more thoughts later when I'm not at work, but I enjoyed this game

[GuiltyLion]

lol N_M I was thinking about asking if you were still hated, but figured that such a question would only benefit scum and that if you were still hated you would have traded it or the mod would remove it in LYLO when scum insta-win was available

[GuiltyLion]

GG everyone, out of curiosity guilty, would you have Vanilized me over the night if you guys decided to kill of NJAC?

if we had killed NJAC then it would have confirmed you as scum, so yes, but only if I still had the vanilla-ize role, assuming I didn't trade it for something better That loved mechanic would have screwed us over if I didn't vanillaize, I guess

[GuiltyLion]

Would you like to play a sequel (hypothetically)?

Would you play this in mini format? Large? Which format would have your preference?

What do you think of this set-ups possible roles and mods, and their chances?

Which roles / mods would you like to remove if any?

And most of all, which roles / mods would you like to add?

I would play again! I think mini would be good, 13 players would add some more exchanges/role madness hopefully. I don't do larges, they take too long for my taste. But yeah this mechanic is really cool in that it allows for a wide variety of potential roles in a relatively organized manner.

I like a lot of the roles, didn't spend much time thinking about chances yet. I agree to remove the "censor" role, that's really bastard. I'd consider adding a vengeful modifier, but only if it were more players.

[GuiltyLion]

also bahaha at #imaraver - Smeagol since your location says Netherlands, have you ever been to ADE? I want to go to that at some point in my life (I have been to Amsterdam before and I loved it there)