Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)
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VictorDeAngelo Mafia Scum
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In post 10, acryon wrote:
Fair enough.This is the first game where I have actually been here at the very start, so I'm glad I am here to ask the hard-hitting questions right off the bat!
Same.
Hello, everybody. This should be fun.-
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In post 17, acryon wrote:Hey Newbie,
I see you played one game when you signed up and got killed pretty quickly and appear to be in two now. How much of a newbie are you actually? Much IRL experience?
I've actually played 10+ games on Onehallyu and Hallyu8 (which is shut down now). I think they're both some of the only forums where day and night phases last about 20-30 minutes, and the game lasts 2-3 IRL days, so I'm more used to things movingwaymore quick.
And yeah, lol. In my first game on mafiascum I replaced in as mafia for someone already halfway lynched. I panicked and kinda just gave up.-
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VictorDeAngelo Mafia Scum
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Then you're obviously dead. Stop Posting!-
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VictorDeAngelo Mafia Scum
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In post 20, Wisdom wrote:But I'm not in the dead players either.
Hey Wisdom did you check at the top of the list.-
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In post 16, Wisdom wrote:UNVOTE:
VOTE: mathdino
Hi Newbie, how do you feel about voting Mathdino with us?
Sorry for the double post, but I didn't see that you had addressed me in this post at first.
Honestly, I know people here do joke votes on the first day, but where I'm from, the time limit is much smaller so we get serious pretty quickly. Therefore, I will not throw out a vote until more people begin to post and things get rolling and then I can start analyzing.-
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VictorDeAngelo Mafia Scum
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In post 28, Mathdino wrote:Well Newbie, that explains your wallposting, haha. Are there any records left of one of your scum games and town games?
Hey Math, why so keen to get some early meta off Newbie?-
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VictorDeAngelo Mafia Scum
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In post 31, acryon wrote:In post 30, VictorDeAngelo wrote:In post 28, Mathdino wrote:Well Newbie, that explains your wallposting, haha. Are there any records left of one of your scum games and town games?
Hey Math, why so keen to get some early meta off Newbie?
I think it's fine. Especially with someone who seems to be new, it's nice to get a feel for how they play so you don't end up just writing off the things they do as "newbie".
Thanks Mathdino that's what I wanted to.....hold up a sec. Your not Mathdino.-
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In post 27, Wisdom wrote:In post 24, Newbie wrote:
Honestly, I know people here do joke votes on the first day, but where I'm from, the time limit is much smaller so we get serious pretty quickly. Therefore, I will not throw out a vote until more people begin to post and things get rolling and then I can start analyzing.
Those "joke" votes can get things serious pretty quickly too, don't you think?
I know they can. What I mean by getting seriously very quickly is that we don't really do joke votes at all, lol. We just jump right in.
In post 28, Mathdino wrote:Well Newbie, that explains your wallposting, haha. Are there any records left of one of your scum games and town games?
@wgeurts: RVS wagons can be good ways of getting reactions out of people. Why so concerned?
I could link you to the games, if that's what you mean.-
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In post 45, Mathdino wrote:@wgeurts: Yet if everyone did that, nothing would happen, haha. I used to hate RVS but it's important for reaction fishing.
^Not liking RVS isn't a scumtell though, if anything it's a noobtowntell IMO.
@Victor: So that way when I inevitably ISO Newbie I'll have a meta to compare to. I don't want to bother waiting until Newbie's got a wagon on (him? her?) to skim a meta.
@Newbie: Yeah linking would cool, thanks.
@acryon: I'm not gonna get random-lynched and I'm really bad at feeling anything during games, haha. Talk to me after the game and I'll let out the rage.
Not really sure what you want me to say to "Why are you town?" other than I got a town PM. I'm not going to self-meta (I don't even have a scum meta yet) and I don't appreciate people trying to prove how town they are since it's easily WIFOM'd.
Edit: ^Written before post #38, gimme a sec.
I'm the user named 2PM.
http://onehallyu.com/index.php?/topic/8 ... goods-win/ - Was town with a mason partner. I had to guess who they were though.
http://onehallyu.com/index.php?/topic/6 ... ay-thread/ - Mafia. (Username was EverythingToMe. Letting you know so you won't get confused.)-
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VictorDeAngelo Mafia Scum
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In post 34, acryon wrote:In post 32, VictorDeAngelo wrote:
I don't love when people seem to question others for trying to get information. Seems anti-town. He was trying to find out some information, whichtendsto be useful for scum-hunting. Wouldn't you agree?
Why not let him answer for himself?
And since when does questioning players this early become anti-town? Is it OK for Mathdino to get information but somehow scummy for me?-
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VictorDeAngelo Mafia Scum
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In post 45, Mathdino wrote:
@Victor: So that way when I inevitably ISO Newbie I'll have a meta to compare to. I don't want to bother waiting until Newbie's got a wagon on (him? her?) to skim a meta.
Mathdino, can you give me a quick rundown of who else in this game have you played with before?
Also, I have new person I want wagon.
VOTE: wgeurts
Everyone get aboard.-
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VictorDeAngelo Mafia Scum
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In post 54, wgeurts wrote:
Reasons for the wagon?
The only motivation I can think of is a reaction-test.
You missed the more obvious answer.
In post 55, acryon wrote:In post 52, VictorDeAngelo wrote:Why not let him answer for himself?
And since when does questioning players this early become anti-town? Is it OK for Mathdino to get information but somehow scummy for me?
It completely depends on intent and outcome. I think Mathdino's intent was to establish a play-style for Newbie which he could compare to Newbie's play as the game goes on, so as to avoid writing off Newbie's actions as newb-scum or newb-town. This is a good intent and a favorable outcome for town, as it potentially helps us avoid a mislynch based on bad information. I'm not sure what your intent was, but the outcome for town from your question is that he answers exactly as he did, but then others may avoid those types of questions in fear of being scrutinized, which is overall a negative for town. Not that I think your question carried the kind of weight to make an impact quite like that, but I do think it discourages certain forms of questioning.
That's a lot of guesswork there Acryon. I highly doubt that me asking a question about why someone wanted meta will have others quaking in their boots to question for meta. And this doesn't really answer why you couldn't just wait to see how Mathdino responded.
In post 59, Mathdino wrote:I've played with a Mala hydra but that's it, which is why I as a relative newcomer have a lot of meta to catch up on. Also I think I played with Duke but the game was abandoned before he posted.
Victor, how many answers to your question would even be possible?
Lots. The question was open ended and I even got a interesting reaction off Acryon to boot. I'm mostly curious as to why Newbie's meta was more valuable to you than others.
I guess what I'm asking is, what were you expecting?
Fun fact, I often ask question I don't know the answer to.
In post 62, Wisdom wrote:In post 52, VictorDeAngelo wrote:In post 34, acryon wrote:In post 32, VictorDeAngelo wrote:
I don't love when people seem to question others for trying to get information. Seems anti-town. He was trying to find out some information, whichtendsto be useful for scum-hunting. Wouldn't you agree?
Why not let him answer for himself?
And since when does questioning players this early become anti-town? Is it OK for Mathdino to get information but somehow scummy for me?
Mathdino tried to get information. You questioned why he wants to get information (which is obvious). That doesn't look like an attempt to get information on your part.
I didn't question why he wanted information, I questioned why he wanted that specific information. There is a difference.
In post 63, Wisdom wrote:In post 53, VictorDeAngelo wrote:Also, I have new person I want wagon.
VOTE: wgeurts
Everyone get aboard.
Why?
It leads to a party where there's Jelly and ice cream - want some?-
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VictorDeAngelo Mafia Scum
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EBWODP: Missed a bit
Why is it important to note the vote is not a test?
Why is important that you wrote your post before 55?-
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VictorDeAngelo Mafia Scum
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Victor if it's not a reaction test, your vote loses credibility if you have no discernible reasons for it.
But why the need to state it's a reaction test. I mean everyone went around labelling votes (reaction test) or (not reaction test) then it would be just silly.
Are you waiting for acryon to answer for you?
Did I miss a question or something?
Edit: Written before #66. And because I didn't really have anything to say on everything after 55, but I don't want to be unambiguous. Sometimes I respond to things people say, and then they post 10 more times before I submit.
Huh, I thought there was something specific about 55. You don't really need to specifically mention just to say I saw but I don't comment.
Why are you spending more time asking questions about these minute details instead of scumhunting, brother?
Questioning is scumhunting, and I have my methods.
In post 72, Not_Mafia wrote:In post 67, VictorDeAngelo wrote:EBWODP: Missed a bit
Why is it important to note the vote is not a test?
Why is important that you wrote your post before 55?
You don't think players should claim serious votes as such?
No, not really. If you want to give reasons, you give reasons.
What are you trying to achieve questioning that?
If someone does something that strikes me as unusual or off then I will question it. It helps get games moving.-
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VictorDeAngelo Mafia Scum
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In post 76, Mathdino wrote:The "Are you waiting for acryon to answer for you" was referring to the general question of "How is wgeurys scummy?"
Oh OK.
And yes, I have to label when I wrote stuff for the same reason you write the dates in citations: context is important, and info may be outdated. I found in my first game that when I polish my posts too much or rewrite them, it looks unnatural. So now I don't delete stuff I say.
Hmmm. OK. I would say you don't have to do that per say, despite what happened in Mafia with a twist. It actually looks scummy for a player to overexplain/cite particularly if they don't normally do it when their town (which you don't appear to).
And I said it wasn't a test because I just don't do tests. I wanted to make it clear that I had actual reasons for voting you so you wouldn't want to shrug it off on account of possibly being a test.
Tests are fun and sometimes valuable. But OK, if it's not a test you could just, you know, say nothing.
Here's the thing though, man: Why are you questioning me 3 or 4 times instead of your vote, wgeurys?
I'm enjoying questioning, and at this precise moment in time I don't wish to question wgeurys.
What's your read on me?
I'm still trying to figure that out. You've done a fair few odd things; asking prematurely for Newbie's meta; overexplaining your actions but something you said this post has made me wonder if I am wrong on my reasons for one of those things. I'm going to say null.-
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Waiting for Malakittens to answer this.-
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In post 41, wgeurts wrote:In post 40, Wisdom wrote:In post 36, wgeurts wrote:In post 22, Wisdom wrote:Because I like wagons. How do you feel about that?
Not good.
What are you going to do about that?
Vote you as this is not sitting well with me.
VOTE: Wisdom
As you can see from the bolded, Wisdom challenged wgeurts to do something about his discomfort of wagons. He most likely didn't expect that kind of response from Wisdom, and he kind of had no choice but to vote Wisdom since it would've looked bad not to back up his words after he put on a show of showing strong dislike towards Wisdom's random lynch in the first place.
In post 48, wgeurts wrote:In post 46, Mathdino wrote:Yeah now that you point that out, Wis, it kinda looks like Victor's fishing for anything "suspicious" that may not actually be scummy. Would've labeled that noobtown behaviour but the join date says otherwise.
FoS: that guy
@wgeurts: Wis got us out of RVS, which you don't seem to like much. If anything that's useful town behaviour; don't vote someone because you don't like their playstyle.
I'm not, it's all a reaction test. For one you took it well by labeling me as newb and moving on. This is slightly town from you as you could have jumped on my BS reasons.
Anyway, there's nothing to gain here.
UNVOTE: Wisdom
With a little heat, he caved and unlynched, falling back on the explanation of reaction fishing. Lol. He even admits that his reasons were BS from the jump, but covered it up well with a "you're definitely town because you reacted a certain way to my sketchy reasoning, sketchy reasoning I definitely did on purpose."
vote: wgeurts-
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In post 126, wgeurts wrote:In post 124, Newbie wrote:In post 41, wgeurts wrote:In post 40, Wisdom wrote:In post 36, wgeurts wrote:In post 22, Wisdom wrote:Because I like wagons. How do you feel about that?
Not good.
What are you going to do about that?
Vote you as this is not sitting well with me.
VOTE: Wisdom
As you can see from the bolded, Wisdom challenged wgeurts to do something about his discomfort of wagons. He most likely didn't expect that kind of response from Wisdom, and he kind of had no choice but to vote Wisdom since it would've looked bad not to back up his words after he put on a show of showing strong dislike towards Wisdom's random lynch in the first place.
In post 48, wgeurts wrote:In post 46, Mathdino wrote:Yeah now that you point that out, Wis, it kinda looks like Victor's fishing for anything "suspicious" that may not actually be scummy. Would've labeled that noobtown behaviour but the join date says otherwise.
FoS: that guy
@wgeurts: Wis got us out of RVS, which you don't seem to like much. If anything that's useful town behaviour; don't vote someone because you don't like their playstyle.
I'm not, it's all a reaction test. For one you took it well by labeling me as newb and moving on. This is slightly town from you as you could have jumped on my BS reasons.
Anyway, there's nothing to gain here.
UNVOTE: Wisdom
With a little heat, he caved and unlynched, falling back on the explanation of reaction fishing. Lol. He even admits that his reasons were BS from the jump, but covered it up well with a "you're definitely town because you reacted a certain way to my sketchy reasoning, sketchy reasoning I definitely did on purpose."
vote: wgeurts
Yeah, sketchy reasoning I forsaw umm... before I actually voted him.
I must be a psychic or something to see the future, yeah psychic scum. Y'all gonna die.
I'm talking about the sketchy reasons you were calling BS.-
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In post 131, wgeurts wrote:You do know I already said they were weak as heck in or shortly after the vote and before pressure?
I beg you haven't even truely read all my posts and you jumped on me using others reasoning and some made up crumpets.
In post 132, wgeurts wrote:Also, if you've read my votes after that my intent was to get us out of RVS and the vote was a tool. Please meta read me and you will see this, votes are tools while needed and weapons once the time comes.
I'm looking at the fact that you used it as crutch to unvote and clear someone's observation of it as "something a townie would do."
In post 133, wgeurts wrote:Haha, yeah I'm right. A quick ISO has shown you've done no scum hunting and literally just jumped on me out of the blue once people discussed my play. Yeah, I'm happy with my vote.
You actually stand out the most to me which is why I went after you. I was suspicious of VD's sudden questioning of mathdino for asking about my playstyle, but VD's responses (which you can read down below) satisfied me.
In post 65, VictorDeAngelo wrote:In post 54, wgeurts wrote:
Reasons for the wagon?
The only motivation I can think of is a reaction-test.
You missed the more obvious answer.
In post 55, acryon wrote:In post 52, VictorDeAngelo wrote:Why not let him answer for himself?
And since when does questioning players this early become anti-town? Is it OK for Mathdino to get information but somehow scummy for me?
It completely depends on intent and outcome. I think Mathdino's intent was to establish a play-style for Newbie which he could compare to Newbie's play as the game goes on, so as to avoid writing off Newbie's actions as newb-scum or newb-town. This is a good intent and a favorable outcome for town, as it potentially helps us avoid a mislynch based on bad information. I'm not sure what your intent was, but the outcome for town from your question is that he answers exactly as he did, but then others may avoid those types of questions in fear of being scrutinized, which is overall a negative for town. Not that I think your question carried the kind of weight to make an impact quite like that, but I do think it discourages certain forms of questioning.
That's a lot of guesswork there Acryon. I highly doubt that me asking a question about why someone wanted meta will have others quaking in their boots to question for meta. And this doesn't really answer why you couldn't just wait to see how Mathdino responded.
In post 59, Mathdino wrote:I've played with a Mala hydra but that's it, which is why I as a relative newcomer have a lot of meta to catch up on. Also I think I played with Duke but the game was abandoned before he posted.
Victor, how many answers to your question would even be possible?
Lots. The question was open ended and I even got a interesting reaction off Acryon to boot. I'm mostly curious as to why Newbie's meta was more valuable to you than others.
I guess what I'm asking is, what were you expecting?
Fun fact, I often ask question I don't know the answer to.
In post 62, Wisdom wrote:In post 52, VictorDeAngelo wrote:In post 34, acryon wrote:In post 32, VictorDeAngelo wrote:
I don't love when people seem to question others for trying to get information. Seems anti-town. He was trying to find out some information, whichtendsto be useful for scum-hunting. Wouldn't you agree?
Why not let him answer for himself?
And since when does questioning players this early become anti-town? Is it OK for Mathdino to get information but somehow scummy for me?
Mathdino tried to get information. You questioned why he wants to get information (which is obvious). That doesn't look like an attempt to get information on your part.
I didn't question why he wanted information, I questioned why he wanted that specific information. There is a difference.
In post 63, Wisdom wrote:In post 53, VictorDeAngelo wrote:Also, I have new person I want wagon.
VOTE: wgeurts
Everyone get aboard.
Why?
It leads to a party where there's Jelly and ice cream - want some?
In post 73, VictorDeAngelo wrote:Victor if it's not a reaction test, your vote loses credibility if you have no discernible reasons for it.
But why the need to state it's a reaction test. I mean everyone went around labelling votes (reaction test) or (not reaction test) then it would be just silly.
Are you waiting for acryon to answer for you?
Did I miss a question or something?
Edit: Written before #66. And because I didn't really have anything to say on everything after 55, but I don't want to be unambiguous. Sometimes I respond to things people say, and then they post 10 more times before I submit.
Huh, I thought there was something specific about 55. You don't really need to specifically mention just to say I saw but I don't comment.
Why are you spending more time asking questions about these minute details instead of scumhunting, brother?
Questioning is scumhunting, and I have my methods.
In post 72, Not_Mafia wrote:In post 67, VictorDeAngelo wrote:EBWODP: Missed a bit
Why is it important to note the vote is not a test?
Why is important that you wrote your post before 55?
You don't think players should claim serious votes as such?
No, not really. If you want to give reasons, you give reasons.
What are you trying to achieve questioning that?
If someone does something that strikes me as unusual or off then I will question it. It helps get games moving.-
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In post 138, wgeurts wrote:In post 137, Newbie wrote:In post 131, wgeurts wrote:
You went after me by instantly voting using other peoples reasons being discussed at that very moment?
Riiiiggghhht.
Also why isn't it possible that what I'm saying is true? You're saying that I used it as a crutch, what makes you think it's fake?
I actually quoted the things that you said which I didn't like and explained why I'm voting you, so how exactly am I using other people's reasoning?
I just think you tried to look overly townish by putting on a show of disliking Wisdom's random voting, but you didn't expect Wisdom to reply back the way that he did. You voted him because it would look odd to back down and used the RVS plus some dodgy reaction fishing excuse. What's really weird is that you took your vote off of Wisdom before he could have any real reaction towards it.-
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And that's exactly what I think happened. I think you took the whole thing as a "Look, everyone. I'm doing such a townie thing and showing that I don't like random votes." type situation. It's the way that you first replied to Wisdom after his random votes is what really pings me.
In post 144, wgeurts wrote:Also, woohoo you quoted my posts. So what?
You used the same reasons being discussed at the time.
Maybe the stuff you did was just found universally scummy, so I'm bound to use the same reasons as other people.-
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In post 103, Wisdom wrote:In post 89, wgeurts wrote:
You do realise sometimes people let stuff slip easier if they think they're safe?
Honestly the vote on you was based of little reasoning so the unvote was as well. I don't have any explicit reasoning fro doing so.
All for you newbie; the so hard to find discussion of the reasons you claimed to have created.
I think your reasons for unvoting Wisdom are a bluff. I've already stated that.-
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To further elaborate on my point, if you had just said that you don't like randomly voting, then fine. It's the fact that you replied to Wisdom asking why he keeps voting and unvoting. It seemed unnecessary. Haven't you played/lurked mafia games on here before and saw that people here usually do stuff like that right when the game begins?-
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I pretty much already did. I don't think your vote on Wisdom was just to start discussion but because you thought that not acting on your stance after Wisdom called you out would look bad. You'll disagree of course and we'll just continue the back and forth forever, so how about we just leave it here?-
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VictorDeAngelo Mafia Scum
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My days are a little in flux right now so I will posting when I can. Technically I could say I'm vla but really I doubt I'm going to be gone more than 24 hours.
In post 85, SilverWolf wrote:In post 30, VictorDeAngelo wrote:In post 28, Mathdino wrote:Well Newbie, that explains your wallposting, haha. Are there any records left of one of your scum games and town games?
Hey Math, why so keen to get some early meta off Newbie?
I'm not sure what the problem is. I would think getting meta would be sharing useful information. I intend to look at meta of the players here. So even though you said you wanted to know why mathdino wanted that particular info. I guess I fail to see the problem with this and your explanation really didn't help me much. You are making way too much of a simple question as though you are looking for a reason to suspect someone. It's possible you just want to question Mathdino like you said, but this seems an odd thing to question him about. This is something else I am taking note of. FoS VictorDeAngelo
So do a lot of players, but I was wondering why he was looking to get meta off that player so early on. Often people looking for meta in the first few pages would have a particular reason, and I wanted to know his.
Mala looks pretty damn townie off her opening posts. I think I should be able to metaread you fairly well now, so I last long enough I will see if your scum.
I don't like Wguerts 105. This post doesn't fit the play at all.
Nor do I like Wisdom's 108 - particularly since he accused me of reaching and asking loaded questions earlier.
I like both the vote and point from Newbie in 124.
Awful rvs in 127.
@TTH are you really implying in 130 it's a waste time asking for reasoning because if a player is scum they will simply lie or have I misread that?
132 & 134 (this should really be one post anyhow ) Asks to meta read to help players understand his style and then tells everyone to ignore Newbie's meta because "the fact he's provided it probaly means he's aware of it and able to manipulate it."
If Wguerts is scum I can see Silverwolf being scum with him for 135.
Is the reason this game is so many pages because wgeurts is multiposting. Actually wgeuers and Newbie. Any chance we can keep it to one post at a time folks?
Blindmewithscience is sitting back too much with this post. Especially considering it's his only one outside of rvs.
I still like my vote on Wguerts, but I really wish I had a second one for blindmewithscience. Not too sure on anyone else right now. A few players on the list need to show still so we'll see.
And like that - I am gone.-
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VictorDeAngelo Mafia Scum
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Wisdom, TTH was directly questioned about you and N_M so it's a little rich going after her for discussing you with other players and it's also unfair to accuse a player voting you of not engaging. As for your question, it was far more of a loaded question than the one I asked earlier which you accused of being loaded.
PEdit: Sorry Math, I'm a tad rushed and meant to go back and add post tags. Cheers for helping me out.-
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I thought the mason case on wgeurts was maybe reaching a bit at first, but then this post happened.
It's confusing now. I'm wondering if a mafia member would act so purposely scummy, but at the same time itistoo scummy to just let it pass.
I guess this is where usually I fall short and have trouble when it comes to mafia. A townie does something extremely scummy, I jump on the lynch because I'm so sure I caught scum and then the person ends up flipping town. I guess I have to do better in looking for more subtle things and not just the obvious.-
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VictorDeAngelo Mafia Scum
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In post 225, blindmewithscience wrote:In post 203, wgeurts wrote:so, yeah you should ignore meta in general. Even the wiki says 9 times out of 10 it's wrong. Meta is the worst thing to use as a case.
Uh, isn't this at odds with your own argument for yourself?
In post 132, wgeurts wrote:Also, if you've read my votes after that my intent was to get us out of RVS and the vote was a tool. Please meta read me and you will see this, votes are tools while needed and weapons once the time comes.
You're basically saying that Meta is bad, after you tell others to look at your meta (which according to you, is "the worst thing to use as a case".
And if you're critical of meta, why didn't you say anything when people were asking for Newbie's meta? This isn't logical at all.
I'm seeing a lot of inconsistency, and so I'm going to
VOTE: wgeurts
onlyto add pressure on you so that you'll create a good defense to Mathdino's accusations, as IMO, your statements responding to him previously were pretty weak. (Also, what I've posted about him is pretty small in comparison with the larger arguments).
Also, when you make posts, PLEASE make them more than one-line posts (or ones that are irrelevant). They make reading through a ton harder to do.
So blindmescience, do you think Wgeurtes is scum? Why do you care about him creating a good defence?-
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Posts #1 and #2 by Wisdom are weird because they came after wgeurts' voting/unvoting of him as well as theobvioussuspicious behavior that wgeurts was getting hounded for. I find it hard to believe that Wisdom didn't see why wgeurts' behavior was extremely scummy, especially with that odd unvote. Therefore, Wisdom's questions come off as fluff and as an act of trying to look town by asking questions.
There also hasn't been any real scum hunting from Wisdom, just a few comments here and there about certain players and questions towards certain players. It almost seems like Wisdom is skirting through this phase, asking just the right amount of questions in order to not set off any alarms.
I also think it's possible that Wisdom could've been trying to inch by inch put suspicion on VD with posts 1, 2, and 3.
Of course, if wgeurts flips scum, all of this will most likely become null.-
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I can recall times I self voted in frustration as town, but to be honest this doesn't feel the same. Particularly considering how early it is (in fact one slot still hasn't posted yet) so it's pretty anti-town to be pushing towards the end of the day with your own lynch. Still happy with my vote on Wgeurts.
In post 258, SilverWolf wrote:Also, wegeurts, there is only 4 votes out of 7 on you without your self-vote. So help me figure out who the scum is on your wagon if you are town?
wgeurts-VictorDeAngelo, Newbie, mathdino, blindmewithscience (L-3)
Like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure mathdino is town. Newbie leans town to me so far. So, is it VDA or blindmewithscience do you think and why?
Or is wagon analysis bad right now in the game without a flip?
Yeah, wagon analyse is generally useless preflip. And if your interested in wagon analysis why not wait for more people to join the wagon? Wouldn't this have been the point where opportunistic scum would have been jumping on?
In post 264, wgeurts wrote:
VDA started the wagon and has since then done little to nothing to help it. He has done so little scum hunting I imagine he is just sitting back and enjoying the chaos I partially caused.
What exactly was I meant to do to help the wagon? Particularly since it took me putting little pressure on you for you to start to crack?
In fact after 279, I don't think I will be shifting my vote today.
There should be no masons claim at this point. I think that much was obvious.
Not sure what to make of Wisdom here, his play would be odd if he is Wguertes buddy so I want to put him on the backburner right now. I like Finn's questions to him and I like TTH's recent posting as well.-
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In post 265, Wisdom wrote:UNVOTE:
VOTE: wquerts
Yeah, I don't like this quick recovery. A moment earlier you were on the brink of suicide and now, after getting people to think you're a newbtown flailing and beg you to unvote yourself, you act like nothing happened. Conviniently, this all happens just as there's momentum on me building.
I don't like this post. Wgeurt was asked repeatedly to unvote and make an actual case against someone. I actually agree with the case he made against you.
unvote
vote: Wisdom-
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In post 303, FinnLaw wrote:
Wisdom- With Wisdom,I'm probably leaning slightly scum.I just disagree with some of the arguments he is making about Wgeurt and I do feel Wgeurt can't win in Wisdoms eyes over the self-vote situation. I do feel it's a catch 22, and I just don't think this is helpfully for town. (I understand Wisdom disagrees with the catch 22 but I do feel it's a catch 22.)
What is bugging me is thatI have Wisdom leaning slightly townand just confused with Wgeurt he could be scum but then I don't think the two of them would be arguing like this if they were scum buddies. So if any which one is it? Probably vote soon but not just yet, want to be more comfortable with my decision.
What? Which is it?-
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In post 312, Mathdino wrote:
Newbie, who would you want to lynch if not wgeurts/Wisdom? What are your thoughts on Silver?
Outside of those two, there's really no one else I would be willing to lynch at the moment. I have other suspicions, but I want to let things play out before I say more on that.
As for Silver, I'm getting a town read from them since their current vote is on Wisdom who I'm getting a strong scum feel from. There's a possibility that Silver is bussing a fellow mafia member, but I doubt it.-
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In post 317, Wisdom wrote:
See above post. You're also looking at the surface and not beyond that. Being asked to do something does not mean that doing it is okay.
From my perspective, it looked like a townie who was honestly frustrated and wanted the other players to closely observe his wagon when he flips town. He didn't want his death to be in vain. I think posts like this, this, and this gave him good advice and I think he realized that, which in turn gave him hope.
In post 319, Wisdom wrote:One of {SilverWolf, Newbie} is scum, both for this unwarranted WKing of wgeurts and for jumping on the easy wagon with rehashed reasoning. I don't think they both are, seeing as they voted together in a short time using the same reasoning.
If you're lynched and flip as town, then I'm most likely going to be a top scum candidate on mostly everyone's lists. It's the chance I'm willing to take, though. And lol with the rehashed reasoning. If multiple people notice similar scummy things about you, then that can't be helped. My reasons for suspecting you are legit (I will admit that wgeurts' good points added onto it as well.).
In post 237, Newbie wrote:Posts #1 and #2 by Wisdom are weird because they came after wgeurts' voting/unvoting of him as well as theobvioussuspicious behavior that wgeurts was getting hounded for. I find it hard to believe that Wisdom didn't see why wgeurts' behavior was extremely scummy, especially with that odd unvote. Therefore, Wisdom's questions come off as fluff and as an act of trying to look town by asking questions.
There also hasn't been any real scum hunting from Wisdom, just a few comments here and there about certain players and questions towards certain players. It almost seems like Wisdom is skirting through this phase, asking just the right amount of questions in order to not set off any alarms.
I also think it's possible that Wisdom could've been trying to inch by inch put suspicion on VD with posts 1, 2, and 3.
Of course, if wgeurts flips scum, all of this will most likely become null.-
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In post 332, Wisdom wrote:
And the first thing he did after all this frustration was "okay, unvote as requested. Nothing's wrong, we're going back to scumhunting. x and y are scum, this is why."
Trust me, this is not how newbtowns deal with frustration. They have their pride to consider, they even think that they'll look more scummy if they back down now that they went this far. It's not making any sense for a newbtown to comeback so easily. I know you probably can't understand me because you lack experience with newbtowns, but I replace into newbies all the time and see such behaviors.
I understand that you have more experience on this, but I quite literally think he saw that unvoting and giving actual, concrete reads would be really helpful to town. Hecouldbe faking it. Idk. We're just going to have to disagree on this.
In post 332, Wisdom wrote:
Assume I am town for a second. How do you think your and SW's votes look, considering they consist of the same reasoning that has already been explained and also considering their timing?
I'm more leaning scum on SW than I am on you, but it's definitely one of you.
Multiple people seeing the same reasons that someone seems scummy can't be helped. I mean, are we supposed to pull other reasons out of thin air just so they don't coincide?-
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In post 298, Mathdino wrote:@Everyone: Who would you want to lynch if not wgeurts or Wisdom? What are your thoughts on SilverWolf? (free pass on sheeping the above case; I think I kinda exhausted everything that can be said about her)
I can see Silverwolf as scum if Wgeurtes flips scum. But I'd rather lynch Wguertes first.
301 - Furthermore if Wisdom is town, I'm can see Silverwolf being scum after reading this.
302 - Sure newbscum would do this. Particular since the scum don't have daychat so Wgeuertes has not had any opportunity to talk with his scumbuddies yet.
310 - Ok, I can totally see blindmewithscience as scum with Wgeurtes after this post. If Wgeurtes flips scum then he should be tomorrows flip. And if it is Wguetes + blindmewithscience then it's probably means it's not Silverwolf based on the second half of this post.
325 - So you now want to wait and see more from Wgeurtes before making a decsion, but you were happily on his wagon a couple of days ago. I also don't like the way he's trying to band people together.
354 - Calling 262 coaching from Mala is a massive stretch. In fact I've spotted a few spots where I think there might be coaching but this is not one of them. Also roles that benefit from being lynched are called Jesters. You'll note there's none in this game if you checked the setup.
That said, I also don't like how Mala has fallen into the background. The last few posts have a distinct feel of holding back.
@Reinoe- Any news on the Undertaker's replacement yet?-
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In post 357, acryon wrote:In post 356, VictorDeAngelo wrote:354 - Calling 262 coaching from Mala is a massive stretch. In fact I've spotted a few spots where I think there might be coaching but this is not one of them. Also roles that benefit from being lynched are called Jesters. You'll note there's none in this game if you checked the setup. ?
And I obviously wasn't referring to him actually being a jester. I know the set-up of this game and I had never heard of a jester so I didn't even know that was a thing. I was more of commenting on the complete silliness of his play, because it almost seems like he wants to be lynched because of how bad some of the stuff he is saying is. It's just so hard for me to believe that someone who is actually scum could be saying things that were that scummy. That kind of player is almost always town in my experience, but at the same time, when the slot of scum it makes you feel like an idiot for not lynching them much earlier.
I don't really like the whole too scummy to be scum argument. It assumes that scum are always experienced and competent and yet townies will derp around and make bad plays.
I am pretty confident wgeurts is town, but that is purely based on my experience with players that are playing like he does. That's probably stupid play on my part, but it's kind of hard to ignore my gut, at least this early in the game when it's the main thing I have to work from. SilverWolf definitely seems like a much better lynch to me, but a wgeruts lynch could possibly give us some good information, especially if he does happen to flip scum. But I don't exactly like the idea of lynching based on that.
What's wrong with lynching for information? Day 1 lynches tend to be the least important in terms of actually catching scum and often simply lynching a scummy player is good play. If Wguertes is town then he is playing badly, he's claimed vt (so if we leave him alive then scum have one less target when hunting masons) and he will always be a question mark going forward (since there's no way of clearing players).-
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In post 367, SilverWolf wrote:In post 365, VictorDeAngelo wrote:
@Silverwolf- Why do all players scumreading you need to provide original content?
That is the reason they are giving for scumreading me. Telling me I am sheeping other ideas without providing original content. I've answered to this but it continues to be used.
So why is it a problem for me and not for them?
But there's a distinction between sheeping in general and finding the same things scummy about a player. If you ask for the scum case against anyone then the cases should overlap (in fact when they don't is when you tend to have a problem). It isn't scummy for a player to be scumreading you for reasons already mentioned, especially when multiple people have presented a case. It sort of feels like your looking for an easy thing to counterattack Acryon over.
PEdit: Acryon seems to have beaten to the punch.
PPEdit: Gees, can you wait like five seconds guys.-
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In post 386, Mathdino wrote:
Newbiewants to lynch Wisdom (Newbie, I'd really appreciate if you expanded on your other suspicions just in case the Wisdom wagon doesn't pull through)
I just realised that I completely forgot to include Newbie in my reads list. Everything on her ISO with the exception of the wagon hop to Wisdom seems townish, but what I don't get is how or why she got convinced so easily by someone she thought was scum a page prior. I could see how she might fall for the AtE self voting/unvoting stuff, but that doesn't negate everything did beforehand.
Newbie, sorry for the rampant questioning, but can you explain this more?
My other suspect was Finnlaw, but I went back and found this. Finnlaw is crossed off of my list fornow. For now, I'm going to focus one thing at a time, or I'll overload myself, lol.
As for wgeurts, he gave me exactly what I asked for and made a good point against Wisdom, who as you can see I was suspecting before Wgeurts even did the whole self-vote thing. It was pretty much between those two for me (I figured they both couldn't be scum because of earlier interactions, but as you pointed out, bussing does exist. I doubt they were bussing each other if Wisdom does flip as mafia though, but it's a strong possibility to keep in mind.).
In post 386, Mathdino wrote:
On a sidenote, I forgot to say this earlier, but I'm not sure what I think of Newbie's overconfidence that Wisdom isn't town (saying she'll be a top suspect if he does). On the contrary; if Wisdom is lynched and actually flips scum, I'm turning to you for bussing the guy.
Slightly leaning town on Newbie, I don't think that's gonna change until we get at least a flip.
Actually, I remember having thoughts on interactive tells I forgot to post. Lemme see if I can remember those and I'll post a few thoughts in a sec.
I'm actually notthatconfident that wisdom is mafia. I am confident but not extremely. I see can how this post would come off that way. When I said 'if Wsidom's town then I'll be getting lynched but it's a chance that I'm willing to take', I meant that I would probably shoot up on suspect lists for going after a flipped townie, but it's just how it is, and it's a risk I'm willing to take because he's my strong scum suspect at the moment, and I think he'll flip mafia (Again, I could end up being wrong.).Also, I assure you, if Wisdom does in fact flip mafia, then I'm not bussing him. I find it odd that you said that. It kind of puts me in a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of situation (if Wisdom flips town then I'm highly suspected as a mafia member pushing a town lynch, if Wisdom flips scum then I'm highly suspected for bussing him).-
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In post 516, St Constantine the Hermit wrote:
I asked every player to elaborate their reads on the person they want lynched.
Why is Wisdom scummy to you?
It's pretty much laid out straightforwardly here. Plus the the really good point that wgeurts' makes right here.-
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In post 520, blindmewithscience wrote:[/b]
Summary of wisdom points: to me the case is mainly because of his criticism of wgeurts. Please correct me if wrong.
For me, it's because it seeemed like he was trying to skirt through the phase and not take a firm stand on anything.-
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In post 551, wgeurts wrote:
The discussion was a few pages long and you didn't find my vote so scummy at first otherwise you would have pushed it and/or voted me.
I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate?
In post 551, wgeurts wrote:
You did neither and decided to lurk, that isn't scummy in its self however one of your forst posts afterwords instantly used others reason right after discussion to jump on me. Then the same happens with your vote on wisdom, you lurked and then suddeneley you jump on wisdomUsing arguments others were alreay discussing.
Actually, the only other person really suspecting Wisdom as that point was TTH. Also, my reasons for suspecting Wisdom were a bit different than TTH's, so...-
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In post 556, acryon wrote:
What is your reasoning for suspecting Wisdom outside of disliking his interaction with wguerts?
In post 237, Newbie wrote:Posts #1 and #2 by Wisdom are weird because they came after wgeurts' voting/unvoting of him as well as theobvioussuspicious behavior that wgeurts was getting hounded for. I find it hard to believe that Wisdom didn't see why wgeurts' behavior was extremely scummy, especially with that odd unvote. Therefore, Wisdom's questions come off as fluff and as an act of trying to look town by asking questions.
There also hasn't been any real scum hunting from Wisdom, just a few comments here and there about certain players and questions towards certain players. It almost seems like Wisdom is skirting through this phase, asking just the right amount of questions in order to not set off any alarms.
I also think it's possible that Wisdom could've been trying to inch by inch put suspicion on VD with posts 1, 2, and 3.
Of course, if wgeurts flips scum, all of this will most likely become null.
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