Mewbie 2094 -- GAME OVER

[goodmorning]

VOTE: Bella

I feel so neglected.

Hi everyone from the last Newbie game I was in! Hi everyone who wasn't in that game!

@Numbers: what are you trying that's different than your previous approach, can you be more specific?

[goodmorning]

@Numbers: not what I expected you to say, but yes, that sounds like a decent idea. It's normal to have more scumreads than there are scum in a game, so some would necessarily be wrong, just by...

the numbers

[insert that ancient meme here]

I do agree with Bella that townhunting can be as important as scumhunting, though I'm a lot more hesitant to "locktown" people because of my terrible paranoia.

@Goldfish: Arrrrrrrr you sure about that?

--

VOTE: catboi

This is a serious vote.

[goodmorning]

VOTE: goldfish

A better vote.

I just want to repeat this early: a newbie game day one shouldn't last much more than ten pages

I don't love this - D1 should last until it runs out of steam or until deadline, whichever comes first. Sometimes that's page 10, sometimes it's page 25. I suspect this might be one of the longer ones but maybe that's just me.

And at both of you: Why’d you assume I was talking about scumreads first? It’s not an unreasonable assumption to make, but it is a (slightly) unnecessary one. I already know about the importance of both townreads and scumreads.

Most people mean "scumreads" when they say "reads", but you're not wrong.

I rather not bring up past games, that was weird.

This is... interesting when you immediately afterwards post 34. Granted the contexts are slightly different but it's an interesting dichotomy of thought.

@GoodMorning, why is your vote serious?

Why do you think?

VOTE: catboi

This is a serious vote.

I'd like to hear the reasoning behind this.

What do you think the reasoning is?

VOTE: catboi

This is a serious vote.

I am unfazed.

Do you think I was expecting that my vote would bother you in some way?

I sort of agree, that you need 'more info' but I think everyone has this weird double think where we know a day 1 elim is probably town and then I think sometimes momentum gets lost. I tend to find day one much easier to look back on with the Info about flips. But yes, w need some content to look back on.

[...]

It's a very nai statement to make though. Scum!Bella is happy to speed through day one and elim a townie

So you do think that 10 pages may be speedy? What makes you think momentum gets lost from second-guessing the wagons more than other factors?

I would also argue that if one's preferred wagon loses momentum, then one should consider pushing harder, but that may also just be me.

Oof, quotestriping on mobile is tedious.

[goodmorning]

Apologies for assuming people wouldn't reference ongoings!

I also find long D1s to be tedious at times but as long as I tell myself it's a necessary tedium I can usually find a second wind in the doldrums.

That is an interesting point about that vote, especially given the (long, annoying) disagreement I had with Progo about late RVs in N2091. I feel like that was pretty memorable, though maybe that's only because I was involved?

[goodmorning]

Tbf RVs has been weird; a few people didn't RVs in their first post, but honestly I think that after the first 'serious' looking vote you may as well move on.

Also, I think me and goldfish have three votes a piece now, which made the third one on me as 'rvs' a little sus.

Now that I look at it, you should have been at E-3, I think Mala may have missed my vote switch to catboi in 21. But yes, anyone looking at the VC would assume they were putting you at E-2. Not 100% sure whether I think there's something AI about that, might need to give it more thought.

That said, while I was going back and checking votes, I noticed something mildly interesting about catboi's voting pattern, if you can call it a pattern yet.

@goodmorning

You're asking people to guess the reason you're voting. Is it because you're used to playing with catboi and got a meta read on him?

I don't know if I've ever played with catboi. I do know we share some friends in common? But even if we had played 6 years ago, meta that old isn't usually very good.

I do appreciate the attempt though!

As per the actual question, I think its not so much as real vote as a reactionary test. You're testing the waters to see who cares, and why they do.

This was sort of part of it (I'm curious if anyone can actually pick out my thought process on this one/ if anyone is thinking the same way I do) but it was also an actually serious vote, or at least as serious as a vote can be on page 1.

Do you think I was expecting that my vote would bother you in some way?

I think you were expecting some form of a reaction from me. *shrug*

I feel like I should be offended that you think I'd be that obvious with a reaction test, or that you think I'd believe that you'd panic at one vote on page 1. I can concede that I expected you would say something about it rather than ignoring it completely, but other than you being the one who did the thing I didn't like, it's not really about you. If that makes sense. I don't think I expressed that very well.

Tbf RVs has been weird; a few people didn't RVs in their first post, but honestly I think that after the first 'serious' looking vote you may as well move on.

Personally, I had more important things to talk about as a repeat failed-to-get-into-mafia person. Dropping the usual RVS was for that was worth it.

Was it? What did you learn from your opening that you're willing to share now?

I don't love this - D1 should last until it runs out of steam or until deadline, whichever comes first.

I was in a game that somehow managed to get to 60 pages before Day 1 ended. That wasn't fun. If there's one thing I don't want happening again, it's that.

Also, I looked over my old games to find this one and all the painful memories of Mafia are bubbling back up to the surface now aaaaaaargh

I clicked over and saw the player list and that explains everything. [Redacted because I don't have anything nice to say.] I'll just note that there is such a thing as posting too much.

Pretty much everyone finds their early games cringey, you're not alone.

Do you think I was expecting that my vote would bother you in some way?

I think you were expecting some form of a reaction from me. *shrug*

And they were right, that was a reaction. Not sure what it means but hopefully they do.

@goodmorning I get why you responded to peoples question about your vote with asking them to try and answer the question themselves but I do hope after you see their reactions and responses you do eventually answer the question yourself.

Normally I'd wait for the remainder of the player list but yeah, I suppose it doesn't really hurt to answer this one now.

I didn't like 17 specifically. There were a couple reasons for this but they all boil down to it feeling manufactured. The conversation with Ash and numbers feels like manufactured friendliness; the "oh, I feel like I'm stagnating" feels like manufactured concern, and the vote on Bella feels like a manufactured attempt to push for towncred by pushing away from RVS in an appropriately RV-friendly way.

Of course, feelings are the ultimate YMMV, but it's unusual for

everything

in an early post to ping me that way.

As per the actual question, I think its not so much as real vote as a reactionary test. You're testing the waters to see who cares, and why they do.

You shouldn't have said this. I'm pretty sure its a reaction test too but reaction tests lose their effectiveness if everyone is aware of them so I came up with another reason why goodmornign would be asking that question.

Guess you could say the

CAT

's out of the bag hehe. Though I think even without mentioning it everyone knew that it was a reaction test so not much harm done, maybe ppl would have answered slighlty differently.

UNVOTE: Goldfish Because I don't actually think she's sus (yet?!)

What kinds of reaction tests do you all see people making??????

[goodmorning]

@Bella: I personally feel like it's one of those things that's absolutely ripe for the WIFOM: surely scum would be more careful than that, but then surely town would be more careful than that (for different reasons). I don't know if I explained that well either, but I feel like doing something that attracts interest is an interesting choice.

@Cat: it was a rhetorical question. When I think of reaction rests I tend to think of slightly more subtle things than LOOK AT THIS VOTE though technically I suppose that is also testing reactions in a very unsubtle way.

@catboi: I did elaborate later in the same post, in response to Cat. What makes you qualify one vote as early game pressure? I would tend to feel that early game pressure RE: votes would require, like, E-2 in a Micro sized game, and it's clear that you didn't feel pressured by my vote here.

[goodmorning]

The beetlejuice tell is not a thing, but.......... then the OMGUS??? And those were the only 4 things deemed relevant for discussion??????

@catboi: I guess we have ~philosophical differences~ then. Kind of a boring answer to that but that's life. It is interesting to see you admit that you're trying (or did try? Unclear to me how much of an ongoing thing this is going to be for you in this game yet?) to project helpfulness, and I think that's another thing I'm going to have to sit with for a bit.

@syugar: RE: 80:
1. You literally quoted, in the same post, catboi admitting that I was at least correct that the helpfulness/friendliness was at least partially manufactured, so clearly my read did have some actual substance to it.
2. Speaking of actual substance, how much of that do you actually expect to see in literally post 21?
3. Are you saying that your feelings are, in fact, facts? Because I can definitely tell you that's not how that works.
4. Consider this me defending your pushback, which is clearly based on

lies and slander.

[goodmorning]

The beetlejuice tell is not a thing, but.......... then the OMGUS??? And those were the only 4 things deemed relevant for discussion??????

@syugar: RE: 80:
1. You literally quoted, in the same post, catboi admitting that I was at least correct that the helpfulness/friendliness was at least partially manufactured, so clearly my read did have some actual substance to it.
2. Speaking of actual substance, how much of that do you actually expect to see in literally post 21?
3. Are you saying that your feelings are, in fact, facts? Because I can definitely tell you that's not how that works.
4. Consider this me defending your pushback, which is clearly based on

lies and slander.

There's nothing substantive about pointing out random posts as being manufactured. I wouldn't even consider it something that helps people get out of RVS, because you inevitably fall back on "it's the VIBES" so discussions cannot go anywhere. I don't really like the approach.

Which parts were lies and slander? You're admitting that your read is thin in this very post in point #2 which confirms everything that I said.

Literally point 1 demonstrates that my read has been admitted to contain at least one accurate component but go ahead and keep not reading I guess! It's a lie to say there was nothing to it and it's also a lie to say discussion about it can't go anywhere because I feel like this one sure is! If you have a better page 1 approach than just saying "here is a thing I found mildly scummy" then I would sure love to hear what it is!

What makes you think I was making a deliberate move to exit RVS rather than, I don't know, maybe trying to establish some reads for myself?

The beetlejuice tell is not a thing, but.......... then the OMGUS?

The progression to voting me doesn't make sense. There's nothing being said, so you vote the person who has not and shows no signs of coming to the thread? Why?

Why did it take you this long to come up with an explanation for your naked OMGUS vote?

syugar seems like obvious town though, so that's a start. Bringing the jolt this game needed.

Strongly disagree. Some people are just combative, and frankly this looks to me like combativeness just for the sake of it rather than any attempt to actually solve the game. syugar appears to be trying to take on the "I'm right and everyone should follow me, do not question me at any time, I am the town leader" role, which I strongly distrust,

especially

in the context of a Newbie game, where people don't necessarily have any experience of this kind of playstyle. It's also just obnoxious tbh, there's only one player I've ever enjoyed seeing do anything like this and he doesn't play here anymore.

[goodmorning]

@syugar: RE: 80:
3. Are you saying that your feelings are, in fact, facts? Because I can definitely tell you that's not how that works.

Actually also @syugar: you missed a question. Are your feelings facts? Inquiring minds wish to know!!

[goodmorning]

Page 5:

I'm sad noone has asked me who I was previously but am now not town reading. Or guessed.

I assume I missed the post where you implied this but I'm guessing Ash? She's been a little quiet so far. I'm not sold that the vote is weird in and of itself, but the "nothing is happening" without trying to make something happen is a little off.

Literally point 1 demonstrates that my read has been admitted to contain at least one accurate component but go ahead and keep not reading I guess! It's a lie to say there was nothing to it and it's also a lie to say discussion about it can't go anywhere because I feel like this one sure is! If you have a better page 1 approach than just saying "here is a thing I found mildly scummy" then I would sure love to hear what it is!

What makes you think I was making a deliberate move to exit RVS rather than, I don't know, maybe trying to establish some reads for myself?

I think you're misunderstanding why I disliked your post ("thin to the point that it looks fake" doesn't necessarily mean everything that you said was inaccurate; posting thin and irrelevant fluff like that just gives off the appearance that you're trying to push the game along when you aren't doing anything), but I admit that I was inarticulate.

If you think tone reads are "thin and irrelevant fluff", why aren't you picking up on catboi for reading aggression as Town? What makes scumreading fakeness fluff, but townreading aggression not fluff?

Actually, now that I write it with that wording, "fakeness" rather than "manufactured-ness", we come to... you scumreading me for fakeness, which is hilariously hypocritical.

Which makes it the towniest thing you've said/done all game, actually.

I don't get the second point. What's the difference? I assume a serious response was necessary towards the development of your reads, given that you... posted them in the thread, and I just don't see a townie thinking that they'd get any good info from what you wrote.

One of the ways I personally read people is by seeing if their thinking or playstyle aligns with mine in any way. If someone answers, "now that you mention it, I see x, y, z in that post" I know I can use some of my own tricks to help me read them.

Why did it take you this long to come up with an explanation for your naked OMGUS vote?

It didn't. I had reasons for voting when I voted. The point of you asking this "question" is to imply things. Aggressive things.

Yes? My response to aggression is usually aggression. If you had reasoning for the vote at the time, why wouldn't you just say it?

syugar appears to be trying to take on the "I'm right and everyone should follow me, do not question me at any time, I am the town leader" role, which I strongly distrust,

especially

in the context of a Newbie game, where people don't necessarily have any experience of this kind of playstyle. It's also just obnoxious tbh, there's only one player I've ever enjoyed seeing do anything like this and he doesn't play here anymore.

Sorry if it came off that way, I'm just stating my opinion. Didn't mean to bring some ghosts back from the past for you.

No ghosts, but I could probably also stand to stand down somewhat. That said:

@syugar: RE: 80:
3. Are you saying that your feelings are, in fact, facts? Because I can definitely tell you that's not how that works.

Actually also @syugar: you missed a question. Are your feelings facts? Inquiring minds wish to know!!

That's just petty. You don't like how I play, but you're being needlessly passive aggressive yourself.

I was being petty but I do also want to know what your stance is on gut reads, tone reads, reads based on feelings, etc. My opinion is that they're good and useful, but also the most likely to cause disagreements, because feelings are completely subjective.

Huh, it was ash, and their weird vote made me rethink but in hindsight I don't think it's that scummy. Maybe I should've explained more, but I find it interesting to see if other people can interpret others' responses/if they'd seen something 'scummy'.

I find it interesting that it was the vote you had issue with (see my response to your initial post earlier in this post).

RE: the Goldfish stuff: I really need to see more from both Goldfish and Cat to read either of those slots at this point.

Meant to say this in my previous post but I have a decent TR on Numbers atm. Most posts seem to be looking at the game from a Town perspective.

[goodmorning]

Page 6 (and the top of page 7) is way more feelings than quotes, thank goodness for that:

^ good posting from the fish

I'm a little surprised, after reading the full page I'm still stuck on full null on Goldfish. I'm pretty underwhelmed by the reads post, none of them feel super original with the exception of the T02 read I guess? But I do think her interactions with Cat feel better than theirs with her. I also appreciated the abbreviated reaction test.

Expanding on that:
I'm strongly beginning to believe that Cat's continual assertions that Goldfish is buddying are actually projection. They look like they're trying to hide behind past history a little too much for my liking, and I'm also not seeing as much interaction with the rest of the game as I would like.

@catboi:
A. It is absolutely not still RVS.
B. if someone makes a bad argument to FoS you, an argument that feels, let's say, deceptive... you expect a town player to ignore it and not point out that deceptive behavior, despite the fact that deceptive behavior is sometimes a scumtell?

syugar: just saw your latest post to me, I'll respond to it as soon as I can. I am currently posting from work and my lunch ended 45 minutes ago

[goodmorning]

Really not a fan of everyone posting just to say that other people need to post more. To be prod-dodging at this point in the Day is... not great. I'd like to suggest that everyone might consider posting a readslist in their next post, by which I mean, post a readslist in your next post or post a good reason why not. Don't make me sad. Make a content happen instead of bemoaning that it's not.

If you think tone reads are "thin and irrelevant fluff", why aren't you picking up on catboi for reading aggression as Town? What makes scumreading fakeness fluff, but townreading aggression not fluff?

I commented on his TR on (I think T02?) for being light and explained why I disagreed, and it was for... similar reasons to the read on me. So I kinda did do that; the reason I didn't comment on the read he made about

me

is that I'm not one to comment on reads about myself, I prefer to let other people navigate them. Unless I see something very interesting.

I think you believe that I'm pushing on you harder than I am. I think the way you handled this situation looks worse than the original thing that I commented on.

I don't love that explanation (not in an AI way) but I can deal with it.

Another one of the tools I tend to use to sort people is to get into an argument with someone. Typically I try not to pick someone who's scumreading or FoSing me much because that can muddy the water's, but usually it's easiest to do with someone I haven't played with before and who wasn't around for the niceties of RVS. Also, I just really did not like your entry. Mostly I'm not the "handling situations" type in general though.

Actually, now that I write it with that wording, "fakeness" rather than "manufactured-ness", we come to... you scumreading me for fakeness, which is hilariously hypocritical.

Which makes it the towniest thing you've said/done all game, actually.

I don't follow this, sorry?

Hypocrisy of any kind is generally more likely to come from Town; Scum are usually more careful about ensuring that they don't make mistakes like that.

Yes? My response to aggression is usually aggression. If you had reasoning for the vote at the time, why wouldn't you just say it?

My opening was intentional, and I don't like to explain things like this but to clear the air with you: I felt like nothing interesting was going on, and that people weren't interested, so having people meet me for the dialogue about why I think "x, y, z" is more important than expositing everything instantly.

So it was, in essence, you looking for a reaction by naked voting there. But then why did you change your vote in the next post and dilute the impact?

I was being petty but I do also want to know what your stance is on gut reads, tone reads, reads based on feelings, etc. My opinion is that they're good and useful, but also the most likely to cause disagreements, because feelings are completely subjective.

I don't really use them myself, but this game has a lot of strategies and I like when people do whatever they want. When it comes to elimination time I don't like when people are just wagoned to their deaths for tonal reasons because I feel like it's rand.

Fair, thank you!

Meant to say this in my previous post but I have a decent TR on Numbers atm. Most posts seem to be looking at the game from a Town perspective.

Can you explain more? I didn't see, like... solving or trying-to-solve content from him, just RVS niceties.

It's like half vibes from back in the IC days, but the other half is this:
23 - I like the testing of the waters with the question about making assumptions. I would have liked it more if he dug in further RE: if our responses made him feel any kind of reads, but still.
33 - I also like the reaction to the T02 vote. It was a very newbTown way of looking at it (what the heck is this?) - Scum there I think would have either ignored the vote completely or tried to stir up trouble by asking for more details.
73 - points out that voting a slot that's not around to see the vote is odd.
So far he's primarily been very inwardly focused, which is NAI at this stage imo. I wouldn't say this is anything close to a lock read, but I do see more Town here than otherwise.

I'll share a few thoughts be aware that most of these are not based on much though,

Syguars enterance is interesting to me, the agressiveness has been townread by a few ppl and I would caution against this. I really want to read it for alignment but I'm not familiar with sygars playstyle. I know his enterance is probably/definitely what I would have done in the same situation as scum, but that's my specific playstyle so I don't know if it applys in this situation.

Bellaphant and good morning both give me townie vibes, but I couldn't exactly tell you the reason why.

T02 is pure null, possibly scum for lack of content but I don't want to say that because it's kind of hypocritical considering my low post volume.

Cat boi is also null, they've made some posts I agree with and some I definitely don't so I'm not sure.

This reads post isn't awful? I mean I'm not tr-ing GM yet and both catboi and syugar have gone up my trs since this point.

When people are saying the t02 read is slightly against consensuses, can they explain that a little? I've had beer.

I don't think it's outside consensus, exactly. It just seems to be the only original read on the list. When every other read is stuff others have said before and your one new read is mostly null, it's not that strong a readslist.

Do not like 171 from Goldfish at all. Feels very Nixon.

You let people float on by and say that it's understandable they haven't done anything, and now I'm having issues finding any townreads at all.

VOTE: Takemikazuchi02

Despite the thread blowing up, all of T02's recent posts are just about himself. When asked about the rest of the thread, didn't even respond.

I think a lot of the game feels fragmented for this reason - T02 and Numbers are each almost a party of one, and Cat and Goldfish feel like a party of two, plus the limited interaction from Ash, so really there are only 4 slots interacting with other slots regularly.

Reads, since I asked, on a spectrum from most Town to least (gaps indicate gaps in level of seriousness):

syugar

Numbers

Bella
(1/2 gap)
Goldfish
T02
Cat

Ash

catboi

Feel free to ask about any of these.

[goodmorning]

Page 8:

Meant to say this in my previous post but I have a decent TR on Numbers atm. Most posts seem to be looking at the game from a Town perspective.

This I find

puzzling

because Numbers had 6 posts and most of that weren't particularly AI to me. I suppose this is partly influenced by having a little bit of knowledge of jumble: he has...confidence issues, to put it mildly, and I think that'd be true regardless of alignment.

The confidence issues were pretty obvious from the start, but not AI, no.

@catboi:
A. It is absolutely not still RVS.
B. if someone makes a bad argument to FoS you, an argument that feels, let's say, deceptive... you expect a town player to ignore it and not point out that deceptive behavior, despite the fact that deceptive behavior is sometimes a scumtell?

A. Well, not now it isn't but the way the votes were being made it felt like that at the time, the comment was valid. I think it is what it is and this isn't important to discuss.

B. I believe that you believe it's a bad argument. But let's review what was said here: syugar said your read is thin and looks fake, and this is shown because you aren't even interested in defending it. your rebuttal is that:

- I was trying to project a certain image so your read had substance to it (possibly, but how I feel now is how I felt at the time: that type of early game read ought to be trivial for a reasonably experienced player to fake, so i don't think much of it at all)
- getting annoyed at the ask for "actual substance" when it was "literally post 21" - to me these reads like getting overly annoyed at a light accusation which tends to come more from scum in my experience.
- your feelings are not facts (don't even think this is important)
- accusing syugar of "lies and slander" for saying your read seems fake, which is a pretty harsh accusation to make and again feels way more intense a response than it needs to be, because it's attributing ill intent to the actions of someone who could just as easily be making a mistake in reading you

A. I disagree, but you're right that it's not relevant now.
B. You missed the part where the rebuttal rebuts the "not interested in defending" point entirely, but that's more of a side point. The part about feelings was to address the "calling it ymmv means you're not interested in defending it" point, which was obviously incorrect on its face. "Getting overly annoyed" - who are you to decide what qualifies as "overly annoyed" coming from me? RE: trivial - it's my read on you, what you think of the initial point isn't really what I was looking for at that point or this. Finally, "lies and slander" - you know there's a reason I italicized that, right? Remember that my account is 10 years old and ~theorize~ about what internet era I might have grown up in.

Yes, people can be wrong, which is what I now think happened here. But if you don't think it's important for Town to point out when people might be deceptively wrong, then your perspective on the game is not one that I will ever understand.

Tbf t02 did identify they were coasting and being a bit rubbish.

And?

It felt slightly townie? I don't think scum!t02 draws attention to it, possibly deflects more into ash/numbers.

I don't love it, or the slot.

Can I also ask that people make some more useful votes?

What would you call useful, specifically?

I apologize, I haven't really been lurking. I just dont feel like I've anything _to_ contribute. It doesn't seem like there's much to state for any actual reason right now, and I don't relaly townsread anyone too hardly. Everything feels random, and I dont really know what's going on. There's no analysis, the games quiet, and most posts are discussions thereof.
The vast majority of posts are just 'people' should post more.

You know what? Heck it.

I need something to happen to talk about, and everyone is quiet since everyone is playing safe.

VOTE: T02

E-2

.

There, that should bring some discussion in.

Why would you make a vote and immediately say "for the reactions"? Also, where is your list, I am crying

[goodmorning]

Page 9: (v disappointed that more people have not provided readslists or at least said they will [Goldfish] [T02])

Ok, let's get some 'progress'

Questions for the group: did the catjoeg/goldfish chat look sus to anyone else? Why?
Is catboi pocketing me?
To all who played in our last newbie: who's different? Who's the same? Does that mean anything?
Is anyone scum reading syugar?

I don't love the dynamic between them, as I think I've mentioned.
Yes, but it's not like there's been any attempt to hide that.
Honestly, T02 and Ash are both pretty different. It's not necessarily 100% clear right now whether that's because of the different type of game state or if it's because they're different alignments. I think I've made it clear already that I don't like Ash's posting at all, and I'm liking T02 less as time goes on.
Not me.

Reads, since I asked, on a spectrum from most Town to least (gaps indicate gaps in level of seriousness):

syugar

Numbers

Bella
(1/2 gap)
Goldfish
T02
Cat

Ash

catboi

Feel free to ask about any of these.

If I'm your strongest scum read you should probably be putting words to that.

Probably!

It's like half vibes from back in the IC days, but the other half is this:
23 - I like the testing of the waters with the question about making assumptions. I would have liked it more if he dug in further RE: if our responses made him feel any kind of reads, but still.
33 - I also like the reaction to the T02 vote. It was a very newbTown way of looking at it (what the heck is this?) - Scum there I think would have either ignored the vote completely or tried to stir up trouble by asking for more details.
73 - points out that voting a slot that's not around to see the vote is odd.
So far he's primarily been very inwardly focused, which is NAI at this stage imo. I wouldn't say this is anything close to a lock read, but I do see more Town here than otherwise.

Okay, I'm actually seeing this now.

I don't think being inwardly focused is an alignment tell for numbers really (can pull links if necessary), and getting a strong townread off those posts feels contrived, really. It's possible we just have vastly different ways of looking at the game and you're picking up on things that I'm not but it seems kinda fake to me?

I agree that the inward focus is NAI, as mentioned in the post you quoted. Like I said, about 50% of it is vibes; back when I used to play as an IC, I would occasionally pick up on something that would just scream newbTown to me, and so far in the new days it hasn't misled me. What the "something" is, I could never figure out, but it's the one full gut thing that I trust from myself.

From town to scum (but imagine catboi and GM are tied)

Ash towny posts 29 34 59

NotAJumble, need more, could be scumbuddies with GoodMorning because GM is townreading them a lot for very little but seems too obvious, still town vibe kinda

Goldfish, stop referencing what you would do normally as scum, showing your so aware of it and telling people means you actually wouldnt do that as scum unless you were trying to lose.

Bella 26, 27, 28 arent scum/scum interactions. Post 140 and 163 in regards to goldfish (and me) completely go against 182 and 3 most recent posts which i dont love, not finding much AI stuff, do you scumread t02?

Syugar, im kinda lost on u

t02, hmmmmmmmmm

Goodmorning, has been voting for Catboi since their second post, dont know how to read that, I know how catboi would tho. Also post 62 'That said, while I was going back and checking votes, I noticed something mildly interesting about catboi's voting pattern, if you can call it a pattern yet.' what? (sorry if i missed where u answered) Also shoulda asked earlier but what is the beetlejuice tell, its not on the wiki. Post 157, who was i buddying. You and syugar did a 180. Especially you. You gave reasons but eh feels weird when ur sticking to the catboi scumread so hard.

Catboi do you still townlean t02? also you seem to avoid being aggressive in newbie games because 'it's prone to be misinterpreted' but you have townread t02 and Syugar (89, 90, 96) for being aggressive why? (with syugar u said in 110 the early aggressive posts may not have actually been that townie but in 147 you went back to saying it was)

Most ppl are town reading bella
Most ppl are scumreading ash
catboi and gm are heavily scumreading each other and voting for each other and i think everyone else is kinda split on them

I don't know if I understand the ordering of this 100%, another note to self to come back later and take another look.

Beetlejuice "tell" (it is not a tell) says that if anyone shows up immediately after being discussed/voted, that's a scumtell.

RE: the voting thing: his attempt (Mala didn't count it, I think because the tag broke) to jump from Bella to Goldfish was (what had been) a(n RVS) wagon to a wagon, rather than trying to start a new one. Not hugely AI in and of itself but could be mildly interesting if viewed as part of a pattern.

[goodmorning]

How do you forget the existence of one of your top 2 scumreads??

[goodmorning]

That's some of the laziest read justification I think I've ever seen. Nobody has done anything scummier than just not post enough?

[goodmorning]

But if you consider lurking to be very scummy, then surely you should be extra attuned to lurkers, so then we're back to wondering how you could forget?

[goodmorning]

But if you consider lurking to be very scummy, then surely you should be extra attuned to lurkers, so then we're back to wondering how you could forget?

Did you forget that I said I was busy and dealing with some personal stuff and that I couldn't put my mind to the game?

No; I just don't think that makes sense as an explanation. If my head is out of the game, I forget my nullreads exist, not my top 2 scumreads.

I don't know if I understand the ordering of this 100%, another note to self to come back later and take another look.

At that time I didn’t know any of Ash’s normal play style I just thought in general she looked like town. Now I’m not as sure so I would probably put her just above u and catboi. The rest of the order I still agree with.

Interesting that you assumed it was the Ash read I meant. Also interesting that you would drop her slot that far based on consensus.

B. You missed the part where the rebuttal rebuts the "not interested in defending" point entirely, but that's more of a side point. The part about feelings was to address the "calling it ymmv means you're not interested in defending it" point, which was obviously incorrect on its face.

"Getting overly annoyed" - who are you to decide what qualifies as "overly annoyed" coming from me?

RE: trivial - it's my read on you, what you think of the initial point isn't really what I was looking for at that point or this. Finally, "lies and slander" - you know there's a reason I italicized that, right? Remember that my account is 10 years old and ~theorize~ about what internet era I might have grown up in.

Yes, people can be wrong, which is what I now think happened here. But if you don't think it's important for Town to point out when people might be deceptively wrong, then your perspective on the game is not one that I will ever understand.

I mean, that's the game of mafia, isn't it? You posted a reaction and I have to judge whether it's genuine or not. If you're town than I'm misjudging you right now. Such is the nature of day 1. If the lies and slander was meant to be a futurama ref, I have to admit you whooshed me with that one.

I don't think it is, no. I'm more inclined to believe that degree of reaction (which is what "overly reacting" corresponds to, rather than "genuineness", imo) is more personality indicative than alignment indicative. There are some people who react more strongly as one alignment over the other, but it's definitely not universal. Now, genuineness and fakeness do more often correspond to alignment, and some people do fake reactions, but I don't think people often fake degrees of reaction.

To the other question: No, I'm simply of the internet generation that will add

flourishes

and CAPS and ~wiggly bits~ to indicate a point that is not, perhaps, 100% serious. I didn't literally mean that he was intentionally lying and slandering, just that I didn't like his points and they didn't feel good to me. The timing of game launch was not great for me so I was trying to force myself to have fun.

That's some of the laziest read justification I think I've ever seen. Nobody has done anything scummier than just not post enough?

I consider lurking to be very scummy and unless someone is exceptionally scummy in other ways we should hang a lurker day 1. Its not lazy justification this is how I play.

Sometimes POE reads are valid if everyone active is towntelling, although I don't think we're at that mark yet. Flipping someone who hasn't posted enough to be readable isn't the worst thing to do in a 9 player game if you're short for other options.

I would disagree (again) (shock/horror). Typically better to flip someone who has some level of association with others and hope the lurkers get replaced imo. Fipping a lurker is info free.

In post 216, catboi wrote:

In post 181, goodmorning wrote:
Reads, since I asked, on a spectrum from most Town to least (gaps indicate gaps in level of seriousness):

syugar

Numbers

Bella
(1/2 gap)
Goldfish
T02
Cat

Ash

catboi

Feel free to ask about any of these.

If I'm your strongest scum read you should probably be putting words to that.

Probably!

I don't like this. I just looked through GM's ISO while searching catboi. Most of the stuff they said about catboi was just disagreeing with things they said. At the start they scumread the manufacturedness of post 17, which i kinda get but I dont think that's a great reason. The response of putting out welcoming and friendly vibes in a newbie game made sense to me. Since then you havent actually pointed to catboi being scummy just them being wrong. Please put words to it.

It's very interesting to me that nobody else, not even catboi who one might logically expect to follow up, has mentioned this.

Unless the replacements explode the game, I'll try to get to this tonight, though I'll freely admit I don't expect this game to be my priority this evening.

[goodmorning]

My favorite sports team did a good sports last night and my manager is working from home today so I guess it's time for a p a r t y (aka I'll be around more often today until my phone dies or I get distracted).

Just finished reading the game, I don't have much to say(still horrible at reading, it's my 5th game overall).

What kinds of things help you read people in a game? Asking them questions? Being asked? Starting fights? Lengthy conversation? Something else?

Did you forget that I said I was busy and dealing with some personal stuff and that I couldn't put my mind to the game?

No; I just don't think that makes sense as an explanation. If my head is out of the game, I forget my nullreads exist, not my top 2 scumreads.

You're making a lot of assumptions here .

I don't think I am. When one is Town, one's primary concern is generally finding Scum. When one's primary concern is finding Scum, one generally doesn't forget the players they think are Scum. I don't think there are any big leaps of logic there.

I feel like we replaced Jumble with a new model with upgraded firmware.

My heart wants to say this is town

although I can't actually claim his posting has been particularly telling.

...why? Coming in with "I need to read", following up with "I have no reads but I did notice (thing everyone else said)" and then "I need to reread" doesn't exactly give my heart the warm fuzzies. I'm willing to give some benefit of the doubt what with my TR on Numbers but that is Not Great.

I don't think it is, no. I'm more inclined to believe that degree of reaction (which is what "overly reacting" corresponds to, rather than "genuineness", imo) is more personality indicative than alignment indicative. There are some people who react more strongly as one alignment over the other, but it's definitely not universal. Now, genuineness and fakeness do more often correspond to alignment, and some people do fake reactions, but I don't think people often fake degrees of reaction.

To the other question: No, I'm simply of the internet generation that will add flourishes and CAPS and ~wiggly bits~ to indicate a point that is not, perhaps, 100% serious. I didn't literally mean that he was intentionally lying and slandering, just that I didn't like his points and they didn't feel good to me. The timing of game launch was not great for me so I was trying to force myself to have fun.

Oh, eh. Didn't pick up on the sarcasm. And as for judgment of your reaction, not sure we're going to go anywhere with this at this point.

I would disagree (again) (shock/horror). Typically better to flip someone who has some level of association with others and hope the lurkers get replaced imo. Fipping a lurker is info free.

voting someone because you believe you'll get "information" from it doesn't help a whole lot when that person flips town.

It's very interesting to me that nobody else, not even catboi who one might logically expect to follow up, has mentioned this.

I'll be honest: I'm not particularly interested in haranguing you for justification for your scumread of me. If you're going to be tight-lipped about it I'm just going to move on.

1. We sure aren't.
2. Sure it does. Anyone generating content is also generating other people's reactions to that content. All other things equal (i.e., the likelihood of the slot being Scum), better to elim an active slot than a lurker on D1. But I'm sure we'll agree to disagree there as well.
3. No, I'd noticed you're not a very reactive player.

Very torn on my next course of action. On the one hand, the timing doesn't feel right to make a catboi case; on the other hand, if not now, when? Of course, on the other other hand, there are other slots that we need feedback from more than mine, and I really hate both making cases and wasting my effort..........

[goodmorning]

What makes you think there's a case on this earth strong enough to convince 4 other people to vote catboi with me today? Bella TRs him too hard, he won't vote himself, T02 is annoyed with me, and Ash's slot needs replacement, so I would have to convince all of you (maybe doable, since you SR him), Goldfish (no idea), Tidus (no idea), and syugar (prefers own opinions). I don't see that happening.

That's what I meant in my last post when I said the timing wasn't right. Making a push that fizzles often worsens the odds of ever getting your wagon through. People will remember that it didn't work, and then you start to get the "are you still going with that" and the "will you talk about something else already".

[goodmorning]

Tl;dr: I only push a wagon hard if 1. I think it will go through or 2. I have a ride or die scumread that I'm 100% on.

This game is not those atm.

[goodmorning]

As much as I don't really want to talk case today, I'll do a very basic outline, because I'm done quotewalling for the moment.

1. Tone. I've already discussed this to death; I don't like the fake friendliness, I don't believe it, and I don't know why we're still getting it.

2. Vote progression. I've mentioned this too, RE: RVS. After that we get a vote and unvote on Cat, both for reasons that seem fairly lackluster (especially the unvote, which to me reads more "I got bored of my vote being here" than "this readslist comes from town because you seem to ~believe~ what you say", particularly considering that in his own playstyle believability is apparently not highly considered). After that, just the vote and unvote on me, which were relatively expected.

3. The argument about That Post. I m already getting tired of writing this so I'll just suggest looking at where he picked it up (after syugar dropped it) (not incredibly AI but mildly. I don't love when people have a tendency to grab other people's abandoned arguments rather than coming up with their own, but mainly only when it becomes a pattern) and where he dropped the argument on each point. Which points were emphasized? Which points were kept until the ultimate drop? Do they make sense to you, the individual reading this, or would you have chosen to emphasize something else (i.e., not theory)? Do you feel like this is AI? (Please do not answer these questions, they are rhetorical.)

4. An extension of the above. Just to say that it's not only in the That Post discussion; I'm often confused by the things he picks out for further discussion/questioning, a fair quantity of which seem to be more theory related than one might want to see.

5. I do actually like his attempts to draw something out of Tidus, even if I'm not sure about the townread coming out of nothing in particular. They seem more actually curious and interested in the game than a lot of the previous stuff. Not great argumentation to end on a hedge, but eh, it's true.

The end (for now)!

[goodmorning]

So what you're saying is the forgetting they exist is what made you scumread them in the first place?

[goodmorning]

Page 13 and I have so much shit to do today so if anyone spam posts so help me:

As much as I don't really want to talk case today, I'll do a very basic outline, because I'm done quotewalling for the moment.

1. Tone. I've already discussed this to death; I don't like the fake friendliness, I don't believe it, and I don't know why we're still getting it.

2. Vote progression. I've mentioned this too, RE: RVS. After that we get a vote and unvote on Cat, both for reasons that seem fairly lackluster (especially the unvote, which to me reads more "I got bored of my vote being here" than "this readslist comes from town because you seem to ~believe~ what you say", particularly considering that in his own playstyle believability is apparently not highly considered). After that, just the vote and unvote on me, which were relatively expected.

3. The argument about That Post. I m already getting tired of writing this so I'll just suggest looking at where he picked it up (after syugar dropped it) (not incredibly AI but mildly. I don't love when people have a tendency to grab other people's abandoned arguments rather than coming up with their own, but mainly only when it becomes a pattern) and where he dropped the argument on each point. Which points were emphasized? Which points were kept until the ultimate drop? Do they make sense to you, the individual reading this, or would you have chosen to emphasize something else (i.e., not theory)? Do you feel like this is AI? (Please do not answer these questions, they are rhetorical.)

4. An extension of the above. Just to say that it's not only in the That Post discussion; I'm often confused by the things he picks out for further discussion/questioning, a fair quantity of which seem to be more theory related than one might want to see.

5. I do actually like his attempts to draw something out of Tidus, even if I'm not sure about the townread coming out of nothing in particular. They seem more actually curious and interested in the game than a lot of the previous stuff. Not great argumentation to end on a hedge, but eh, it's true.

The end (for now)!

I'm going to respond to this in maybe the most annoying fashion possible: why does any of this make me mafia, and not just someone whose playstyle you don't understand?

Because I think it goes beyond the realm of playstyle and into the realm of not having a Townie mindset/perspective on the game.

So what you're saying is the forgetting they exist is what made you scumread them in the first place?

Jumble yes. Aspho no.

Elaborate please.

What makes you think there's a case on this earth strong enough to convince 4 other people to vote catboi with me today? Bella TRs him too hard, he won't vote himself, T02 is annoyed with me, and Ash's slot needs replacement, so I would have to convince all of you (maybe doable, since you SR him), Goldfish (no idea), Tidus (no idea), and syugar (prefers own opinions). I don't see that happening.

That's what I meant in my last post when I said the timing wasn't right. Making a push that fizzles often worsens the odds of ever getting your wagon through. People will remember that it didn't work, and then you start to get the "are you still going with that" and the "will you talk about something else already".

This was addressed to whom?

To Cat, who asked in 292 while I was writing up my vague outline.

Tl;dr: I only push a wagon hard if 1. I think it will go through or 2. I have a ride or die scumread that I'm 100% on.

This game is not those atm.

More or less the same.

You had Asphodelus low on your scumlist. I noticed you had played with her previously. Do you feel this polarization to the same extent I do? Why haven't you jumped on it? Was the beginning of this game drastically different in terms of pace and amount of content from the game that you two had previously played?

Yes, because this game seems fairly different and it's also possible for someone's circumstances to change and hassling low content posters is boring, enough that I don't have as strong a scumread as I might in other circumstances. In that order.

[goodmorning]

Page 14 is just vibes stuff, nothing that needs a direct quote. I did miss one of worst's posts on page 13, I don't get how the quote correlates to the vote in 320? Otherwise I think (?) I like their entry so far but I'm not sure if I like it enough to outweigh the leanscum on Ash yet, mainly because I suspect a lot of the stuff I like is really NAI. For instance, not playing to consensus is neat, but of course if they're scum they'd make sure not to play to consensus. So.

[goodmorning]

Page 15:

@syugar RE: T02: I both do and don't understand what you're getting at, or at least I don't think it's only T02 taking flak for being self-centered in this game and I don't think it's that weird that people would scumread him for it, even if I personally don't.

RE: the worst 370: do not like. "The consensus is ok voting Tidus so me too"! Pretty much directly opposed to some of what I liked about their entrance.

I don't love that 2 slots now seem to think that 2 people scumreading each other MUST be 1 scum 1 town.

[goodmorning]

Ugh, also, t02 is town. Again!

Finally something we agree on at roughly the same time! I don't think it's quite as strong for me but yes, the last posts are getting me there. I still want to know what's up with the Numbers thing but otherwise he's starting to feel much more like himself.

[goodmorning]

Through 17:

I don't love that 2 slots now seem to think that 2 people scumreading each other MUST be 1 scum 1 town.

I don't either, but I thought you'd welcome it

That sort of thing rarely seems to go well when I'm involved. If catboi and I

are

just town misunderstanding each other then it gives scum the chance to line up lims. If catboi is scum and I go first (likelier, I think I'm not as townread as he is), there's no guarantee that he couldn't wiggle free.

RE: the worst 370: do not like. "The consensus is ok voting Tidus so me too"! Pretty much directly opposed to some of what I liked about their entrance.

This is the opposite of what that post says. Nobody seems ok voting Tidus, which is why I think it needs to be done.

I currently am under the impression that most of the player list null- or scumreads the Tidus slot, with the exception of myself and catboi iirc?

I do really like 406, specifically the Cat & Goldfish interaction part, so I can see we're back to back and forth again.

[goodmorning]

Through 19:

Elaborate please.

Why are you asking me to elaborate on things I already explained?

Because I don't feel satisfied by the level of explanation.

VOTE: numbers

I don't like how you've been playing the returning player card since the start of the game.

VOTE: T02.

I don't like how you [insert random thing about someone that isn't related to the game in hand] since the start of the game.

This feels confrontational in a way that I would not expect newbie scum to be so early in the game.

What! Is going on with this game! If I never see the word "confrontational" again it will be too soon!

Just know that you probably won't get very much information if I am eliminated, if we eliminate T02 or Cat.jpeg, even if whichever one is eliminated isn't scum, we get some information out of it due to their reads, and I would say there may be a good chance of either of them being scum

Consider me like fourthing that this is an awful look. Doing nothing is not the defense you think it is!

I have a question I want answered before the day ends. To the people that townread me, why exactly?

It's a townleanish thing rather than a full townread for me, and it's completely meta. Once you got engaged with the game, you pretty immediately started to feel like you did in our previous game.

[goodmorning]

Through present:

My issue was I didn't like syugars posting, then I didn't like GM's response, then I didn't like how catboi called syugars posting town! I'm liking catbois progression much more.

I think in particular w/r/t syugar I've seen other players take that kind of aggressive approach where they seem to fos a lot of people on entry and gotten wary of it because of how wide their suspicion seemed to be, but the player ended up being town anyway. Just think stylistically the scattered approach is more likely to be town where scum faking aggression take a narrow-tunnel approach


If I assemble my vague townish feelings together, I have Cat.Jpeg (feel very good about this one), goldfish, bella, and syugar. It's possible I'm wrong on one of these because it's earrly, but if it

is

true it would mean all the scum would be in GM, Ash, T02, and jumble. Which feels...plausible?

Catboi, what moved TO2 into your scum pile, given you seemed to town read their entrance?

Another thought that I had about this post, is that cat.jpeg going from "the person catboi was voting" to his single highest town read is probably + town for him.

I drew the opposite conclusion from this - he doesn't seem to have had any real reason to change his mind at that point, none of what Cat was doing in between the vote and unvote was AI, so either the vote was fake or the unvote was, imo. What about it makes you think it improves the likelihood of catboi being town?

Not a big fan of the fact that the worst seems to be one of your top scum reads (they were in all three of your alternative scum team options), but you don't have what slot they are sorted out in your head.

This is not a bad point, and syugar's response to it was not great.

I tend to agree that if I'm right on Tidus, on the balance of probabilities I'm wrong on cat.

I'm a bit [username joke] on Lukewarm's contributions so far. I still find it jarring very few people are acknowledging Tidus' existence. It's like we're living in FFX-2.

I don't find it that weird that people would forget the existence of a player who seems that determined to make 0 contribution to the thread, but maybe that's just me.

[goodmorning]

Just for opinion clarification purposes: I wouldn't mind a Tidus elim today, and that's currently the only compromise elim I would be happy with. The townlean I had on that slot has been pretty thoroughly erased by this point, if my last few posts haven't made that clear.

What I really need is a thorough reread of the thread with a few things in mind, but that's not going to happen in the time remaining this Day phase. No, I will not be clarifying what those things are at this time.

[goodmorning]

Not a big fan of the fact that the worst seems to be one of your top scum reads (they were in all three of your alternative scum team options), but you don't have what slot they are sorted out in your head.

This is not a bad point, and syugar's response to it was not great.

i thought it was a very bad point cuz its obvious throughout the rest of my iso that i have been playing with the correct replacements in mind and i made an error whilst posting quickly in the morning, im curious why you think its good

Same reason I didn't like T02 forgetting Numbers existed, it makes it look like your reads are more reads of convenience than reads based on the actual game, aka not trying to actually solve, aka not Town.

I remember reading about toxoplasma gondii, great call.

it would be really weird to suddenly yeet catboi at the 11th hour right? Tidus is the right yeet right?
.....right?

I mean...

Just know that you probably won't get very much information if I am eliminated, if we eliminate T02 or Cat.jpeg, even if whichever one is eliminated isn't scum, we get some information out of it due to their reads, and I would say there may be a good chance of either of them being scum

Information out of the flip, you know, like discrediting townreads if they flip mafia and strengthening them if they flip town

I do think after someone flips scum something can be gained from their reads, but if they flip town i dont think you should strengthen townreads or hold their opinions as more correct. I dont want to be the one to hammer you but

intent to hammer

Why don't you want to be the one to hammer?

I maintain Tidus very likely flips town. I am incredibly suspicious of worst for pushing there and it probably tanks syugar in my estimation as well. Don't think they're scum together but doubt both are town.

I think to some extent flopping around and forcing out a bunch of claims at deadline is anti-town but I can't in good conscience send this through so I'll sit back in protest until we're truly running out of time with no alternative.

Is less than a day left on deadline not running out of time?


If no elim happens tonight, I'll be setting my alarm for 10 minutes early tomorrow morning to give me time to hammer Tidus, assuming nothing changes. Will also work on an updated reads list based on the replacements causing some movement there.

[goodmorning]

Not a big fan of the fact that the worst seems to be one of your top scum reads (they were in all three of your alternative scum team options), but you don't have what slot they are sorted out in your head.

This is not a bad point, and syugar's response to it was not great.

i thought it was a very bad point cuz its obvious throughout the rest of my iso that i have been playing with the correct replacements in mind and i made an error whilst posting quickly in the morning, im curious why you think its good

Same reason I didn't like T02 forgetting Numbers existed, it makes it look like your reads are more reads of convenience than reads based on the actual game, aka not trying to actually solve, aka not Town.

That's honestly what it looks like to you? Deadass?

Yep, sure does. I'm willing to accept that you may have just been careless with your typing, as you claim, but I also don't like that idea (NAI reasons though).


Can someone tell me what on earth a TMI is in this context? I don't remember that being a thing.

[goodmorning]

Yep, sure does. I'm willing to accept that you may have just been careless with your typing, as you claim, but I also don't like that idea (NAI reasons though).


Can someone tell me what on earth a TMI is in this context? I don't remember that being a thing.

P1: Why?
P2: Too much information. Using perfect info of scum to make an improbable townread, usually to look protown after a flip

Why to which part?

[goodmorning]

I don't care for carelessness.

[goodmorning]

I don't care for carelessness.

Neither do scum, they refine their posts meticulously and make sure they're consistent

Not always true, which is why I say carelessness is NAI. I just don't like it. If you're not being careful, as either alignment, you're not doing your best.

[goodmorning]

I think his frustration at tidus being run up is almost certainly genuine too - I just think it's a great reason to nullread tidus and push elsewhere. And a bad reason to townread Tidus then not do anything while Tidus dies.

As someone who's had townreads on newbs that nobody else shared and who defended many of them, I wouldn't have stuck my neck out for one playing like Tidus in this game. There are plenty of reasons to find catboi suspicious but I don't think this is one of them.

[goodmorning]

VOTE: Tidus

Just in case we miscounted. There've been a few pages since the last VC.

P-edit: I brought up a few of them earlier; I don't believe you were enthused.

[goodmorning]

@syugar: Not at present.

I will say I haven't been feeling incredibly happy with most of my reads and I'm definitely planning to do a full deep dive reread with the full context of D1 in mind. Sometimes having the full progression instead of just a page by page look gives me a better feeling in weird drifty games like this one.

[goodmorning]

I don't love Cat using the "I don't love" phrasing but I don't know why that is. Ringing something for me to try to figure out.

[goodmorning]

Massclaiming makes no sense with either 8 or 7 alive. Trying to hamstring your PRs at this stage of the game in a semiopen is not correct and I will fight anyone who thinks it is. (Even LLD, and I really like LLD!)

Now, if this were an Open, it probably would be correct, but this is not an Open.

Also: in the specific Tracker scenario mentioned, where a JK claims, it would make more sense for the Tracker to claim VT so that they can continue to investigate; otherwise they are completely useless as they'd likely eat the JK N2 (i.e., not being able to do their job) and very possibly become a miselim candidate afterwards, since they wouldn't even have "innocent child" status by way of the massclaim.

I think the only other thing for me to address is @Luke:
1. You clearly haven't been actually reading my posts if you're bringing "lies and slander" back up again.
2. What makes you think those were "busywork" questions instead of, I don't know, actual questions?
3. You wouldn't have noticed that over my "last couple games", since it's usually something I do when I get behind/replace in to games. My last game i was one of the more prolific posters, and the games before that were when I was in the process of site flaking 6 years ago and did not give a single shit about staying informed.

Anyway, more reads stuff later when I can be bothered but suffice it to say catboi may actually be Town. When I reread the game just for content and not tone, there was nothing in his posts to dislike. Also I figured out what I didn't like about Cat using the same words as me - mirroring can be used to buddy (& is the most common method of irl buddying, intentional and otherwise). Whether that means anything here is still undecided.

[goodmorning]

Wow, there are exactly 0 scummy things about my wagon. Completely normal and very cool, nothing suspect whatsoever.

This game has been so exhausting and unfun. Frankly I'm just about ready to die.

VOTE: worst

I still think T02 is Town and I understand where catboi is coming from already even if it's a very misguided place. worst's hop onto my wagon is l a z y in a way that feels like a scumclaim.

But, y'know, go ahead and run me up, it'll be a great time.

[goodmorning]

I understand where catboi is coming from already even if it's a very misguided place.

Also, I thought I was your top scumread yesterday given you did nothing but votepark me yesterday? And I haven't even explained my vote?

I took it as read that your D1 feelings carried over, since you didn't add any new reasoning. Is that not accurate?

RE: voteparking on you: I had no reads stronger than my read on you; my read on you was a fairly strong toneread, but tone reads are relatively weak. When I went back and ignored the tone things I didn't like, I felt like you were largely coming from a (very foreign to me) Town perspective rather than a Scum one. You're definitely not my strongest townread still - I kind of expect to see stronger alignment-related opinions from you (though this game has definitely been... not good for that) - but you are a townread.

I understand where catboi is coming from already even if it's a very misguided place.

Also, I thought I was your top scumread yesterday given you did nothing but votepark me yesterday? And I haven't even explained my vote?

this really concerned me as well. the "oh I reread catboi and other than tone all of his content seems fine~!!" isn't really consistent with a read re-evaluation from someone who voteparked you for the entirety of d1.

294 and 381. Literally the only thing I changed my mind about was my opinion in 381.

Not many teams make sense anymore and I don't have any clue what to do

All voters list viable worlds for who they are voting

worst has been flipping wildly through votes as though flinging things to the wall to see what might stick and has not necessarily looked genuine on some of them. Ash didn't look great either, including starting off with a justification as to why her posts might look different. I have more words than this but these should suffice to answer your question in brief.

I should say, for the record - I don't agree with anyone scumreading the "softclaim", because I didn't think it was a softclaim.

I think the only other thing for me to address is @Luke:
1. You clearly haven't been actually reading my posts if you're bringing "lies and slander" back up again.
2. What makes you think those were "busywork" questions instead of, I don't know, actual questions?
3. You wouldn't have noticed that over my "last couple games", since it's usually something I do when I get behind/replace in to games. My last game i was one of the more prolific posters, and the games before that were when I was in the process of site flaking 6 years ago and did not give a single shit about staying informed.

Anyway, more reads stuff later when I can be bothered but suffice it to say catboi may actually be Town. When I reread the game just for content and not tone, there was nothing in his posts to dislike. Also I figured out what I didn't like about Cat using the same words as me - mirroring can be used to buddy (& is the most common method of irl buddying, intentional and otherwise). Whether that means anything here is still undecided.

Wow, there are exactly 0 scummy things about my wagon. Completely normal and very cool, nothing suspect whatsoever.

This game has been so exhausting and unfun. Frankly I'm just about ready to die.

VOTE: worst

I still think T02 is Town and I understand where catboi is coming from already even if it's a very misguided place. worst's hop onto my wagon is l a z y in a way that feels like a scumclaim.

But, y'know, go ahead and run me up, it'll be a great time.

And good morning, why are you calling the wagon scummy, but only calling 1 person suspicious for it?

And why are you only evaluating the people who actively voted, and not the other people who scum read you?

Like, I was the one who said we should elim you, but I'm not on your list of people you needed to sort whether I was scum angling for your miselim?

I think Bella also scum reads you (not gonna double check this at the moment)

When a wagon springs from 0 to E-2 in one page, it's slightly more often than average Scum-involved. In that case, you look at the voters. I have townreads on both catboi and T02; I don't have one on worst, and worst's vote was also the worst vote.

RE: you: I didn't like your entry read on me, but sometimes people have difficulty catching up on a full game and improve on context once they're actually participating.

RE: Bella: we seem to be just missing each other in this game. I'm feeling a lot more confident in her being Town since the start of D2, and I also think we're starting to reach more points of agreement.

I think you may have missed saying something you meant to say in the above post, or did you accidentally quote 686 there?

I'm also holistically concerned that GM's entire read trajectory this phase is "my wagon is suspicious, let's vote the lowest hanging fruit from it" but that's hardly ground breaking.

This phase has been going on for 4-5 pages which were mostly arguing about massclaiming and I have two posts (this is #3). What trajectory are you looking for with that kind of sample size?

--

Why is everyone doing associatives before flips? With 8 alive?? Seriously. Stop it, get some help.

[goodmorning]

I am still very anti massclaim (it clearly will provide more info to Scum than it will to Town) but will bow to the will of the 3 UTs - let me know if you're still inclined to see this through or not.

That said, at 2.5 days remaining I'm also not sure there's really time for it.

In the meantime:

@Luke 805: I'm not sure I understand your point. It's not automatically scummy for someone to scumread me, I'm not [player name redacted for obvious reasons]. Did you want me to fight with you? I'm not really in the mood for that atm.

[goodmorning]

I'm here, but was waiting to hear a yea or nay from the UTs. My vote is (as indicated by my literal vote) for elimming worst today and mcing tomorrow.

This massclaim stuff has taken up 90% of the content today and was obviously the wrong idea on the face of it. No, I will not be discussing this any further than I already have.

[goodmorning]

While we're waiting for gm to answer, I'd like to point out that Bella, Syugar, Luke and Catboi all voted for tidus and worst and I'm confident both mafs are among those 4.

While we're waiting for gm to answer, I'd like to point out that I don't like this post.

Agree with this and the subsequent reasoning, regardless of T02's PR claim.

--

In the interests of keeping this game moving I'm vt. Don't have time for anything else tonight but I have plenty of anything else to discuss.

[goodmorning]

At any rate, this is at least one useful example that shows that relying on arbitrary assumptions about who is on/off wagon can bite you for finding scum. I can probably pull other examples. They're rare but they do happen.

In my experience all-Town wagons on Town are... not rare. They happen at roughly the statistically-indicated rate.

Anyone doing VCA involving positioning or on/off analysis of one wagon is wasting their time.

@Bella: RE: my tone in this game - my sports team is now in the playoffs and it is driving me off the wall. I noticed night 1 while I was rereading that it's affecting me way more than I thought. No idea what my coworkers must think.

--

JK-T02 means I'm mostly lost again but for now

VOTE: syugar

928 feels like trying to preempt people from scumreading his lack of content D2. I kind of set him aside as a townread and stopped caring but now I'll be going back and rereading his ISO.

Cat is looking more townish again I think. 926 and the posts leading up to it look like Town happy with a solve rather than Scum pointing it out.

[goodmorning]

This is a shamelesspledge, was dealing with a migraine all day yesterday but hope to be able to catch up tonight.,

[goodmorning]

Thank you phone for auto correcting prodge. Love that for you.

[goodmorning]

Cat is looking more townish again I think. 926 and the posts leading up to it look like Town happy with a solve rather than Scum pointing it out.

What does this even mean?

Also I want to pint out mafia would have known we had just one pr and it was a jailkeeper from the start of day 2 because they knew we were in the C column and there was a protective role. Idk if that helps with anything but im glad we didnt claim yesterday.

What makes this "Town happy with a solve" vs "scum pointing it out?"

Town and scum would both know it at the point that they made that post. Its not even a solve

Well, no, it's not literally a solve, it's a "yay, we know what the setup is now", but solve is quicker to write. Scum would have known the setup already (as Cat points out), and this feels like genuine new excitement which Scum would not have. I also don't think that newer scum would necessarily want to draw attention to what the scum would have known at any given time.

I found something interesting while skimming through the thread. At the end of day 1 652, gm miscounted the votes and dropped what he thought was the hammer vote on tidus(Tidus already got hammered at the time)
This means that 5 of the 6 uncleared players are involved in both miselim wagons.

You... might want to read my post again if this is what you think happened. I quite literally said I was voting just in case there had been a miscount, not that I thought that was likely.

I want everyone to share their reads list.
This day is crucial and we need to share info and discuss as much as possible so don't slack off please.

Next post will be one.

That's fine, but it's the little words that matter. You said is 'suddenly' had this read on catjpeg, but it's not new at all - words like that feel very scummy to me. You call it 'suspicious' but I've just shown to what my progression is and you haven't really responded, just defended yourself.

I don't know that I actually have a comment, lol - I appreciate the clarity? I think it generally makes sense and is plausible you're town just getting paranoid here.

I was only going to respond to questions/requests directed at me/everyone, but I really don't like this post. It very much feels like a setup for the "I forgive you for scumreading me, I know you have to (because you're scum and I'm now scumreading you)".

This is a shamelesspledge, was dealing with a migraine all day yesterday but hope to be able to catch up tonight.,

ur literaly dying...

I'm sorry that my inability to look at screens for more than 5 minutes inconvenienced you! Next time I'll just tell my brain not to do that and I'm sure it'll work!!

[goodmorning]

Im not going to dignify that with a response!

Readslist, very generally:

Town
T02- confirmed by un-cc'd claim
Bella - has shown clear and transparent thought processes throughout the game, none of which seem manufactured
Luke - has been obviously attempting to solve the game, particularly today; minor issues regarding the massclaiming stuff but I think it was well-meant
Cat - started to drop some newbTown tells, including the one I pointed out earlier; while their wishy-washy reads tend to look scummy, those also can be an indication of lost newbTown
catboi - I don't know anymore; I think one way then I think the other way. Fairly sure we've been of opposing mindsets and moods throughout
syugar - has a lot of posts but not a lot of content; as soon as he started being widely townread, he stopped trying altogether. His early posts today looked very much like someone trying to set up against a soft guilty
Scum

If anyone wants any clarification, let me know.

[goodmorning]

Luke you genuinely played a great scumgame. Unfortunate that it didn't work out but that's life!