Newbie 1761: Welcome to Mafia (Game Over)

[MortFeld]

VOTE: karldilkington

You like Ricky Gervais and are therefore probably British and therefore there may be an insurmountable cultural divide.

Looking forward to playing a full game with Arc.

Who is Clemency?

[MortFeld]

Who is Clemency?

I read Deimos' sig. Question answered.

[MortFeld]

11 is weird. Is making dead-related jokes with names in RVS something Cheetory usually does? Checking 2 games of Cheetory's. Nope, he does it in neither.

9 seemed to be poking around for potential dirt. 11 looks conciliatory and happy-making in contrast. What was your goal in 9 and what did you mean by 11?

[MortFeld]

Glad to be working with you sir.

How do you know you're not working against me?

[MortFeld]

He's trying to egg people into rando'ing

So did you read #17 or what? You're supposed to random vote at the beginning of the game. It generates discussion. At least you're participating now, albeit in a way I very much disagree with.

RVS isn't compulsory.

@Zaraki - do you think random voting at this point in the game is a bad idea? If so, why?

[MortFeld]

I do indeed think it is wrong. Look, voting on D1 is wonderful for pressuring scum but it's just so RANDOM. I mean, on D1 we all know that the town outnumbers the mafia by quite a large margin. There is just such a small change that a scum is voted that it's ALMOST, I say almost a gaurunteed town loss. Why should we vote away fellow townies? There's just such a small chance of scum lynching that it isn't even worth it. I'd go as far as to saying random on D1 is pro-scum. Therefore my vote stays as only scum would want to random knowing that it is súper unlikely to be hit, since town always starts with a huge majority.

I asked you if you thought voting randomly at this stage was wrong. This answer seems to be saying that lynching at all Day 1 (almost always) favors scum.

1) Am I correct that you believe this?
2) If so, why not vote No Lynch to start the game?
3) Why did you vote Deimos if you believe Day 1 lynches favor scum?

9 is me trying to sort, 11 is because his reply was exactly what I expected. That there just wasn't a good joke to make about Clemency.

Answer accepted.

[MortFeld]

With that out of the way, my opinion at the current moment is that while we are generating discussion, no one has done anything particularly noteworthy, apart from Zaraki not knowing what RVS/ the importance of RVS is.

Would you say that we're still in RVS then? If so, why didn't you participate?

[MortFeld]

VOTE: Zaraki

Mostly RVS but also pressuring him a bit and for the flawed logic which i hope he can understand.

Do you have any specific questions regarding his logic? I asked him about it in 24.

How does your vote actually pressure Zaraki if you tell him that's your intent?

1)What kind of behaviour do you deem the scummiest (lurk/filler/whatever)?
2)What kind of behaviour would you judge as Townie ?
3)(more off-topic) What kind of roles do you think impact the game the most?

1) Obscurantism. Derailing the topic, avoiding questions, voting a ton or seldom voting. Spreading the mist.
2) Asking good questions.
3) I dunno.

Also gonna throw out some standard RQS questions out there for people to answer.

What is your goal with these questions?

[MortFeld]

I was mainly wondering why you asked question 3.

Whatever people say can also be both used against and for them. Like if they contradict themselves later on in the game, we can notice.

Can you give a hypothetical example of how someone might contradict themselves regarding their answers in a scummy way?

Well I guess pressure isn't exactly the right word but more of a "I've got my eye on you" kinda feeling

So you're voting him because his logic is bad, but you have no specific questions about it?

What makes his logic scummy-bad as opposed to towny-bad?

[MortFeld]

it's to let him know I disapprove of that use of logic

Why does this require a vote, instead of an "I disapprove of your reasoning"?

As I said, mostly a place to stick my vote and only scum wants to use bad logic, although I doubt the colour of his role PM is 100% red, it's to let him know I disapprove of that use of logic

Only scum wants to use bad logic

deliberately

- that is, if they know what is good logic.

You are voting him, and your vote is not random. So, you must scumread him to some extent. Saying it's "mostly a place to stick your vote" is not true. Why does his faulty logic lead you to believe he is more likely scum than town? You can't possibly believe that faulty reasoning alone is a scumtell, especially when the content of that faulty reasoning is an argument directly contrary to basic site meta. So, you must believe that Zaraki knows that Day 1 lynching favors town but deliberately attempted to deceive town into thinking that Day 1 lynching favors scum. Do you believe this? To me it's absurd.

[MortFeld]

You are saying two things.

Your vote was random.
Your vote was to let Zaraki know that you disapprove of his reasoning. An "I've got my eye on you" kinda feeling.

These things cannot both be true.

vote is not random

I dont appreciate getting misrepresented

How can your vote be random if it's intended as a FoS on Zaraki for his reasoning? That is a non-random reason for your vote.

[MortFeld]

What you said was incorrect. My vote is partly for the reasons i stated. My vote is mostly random.

What you said and what I mean is different.

What happened was that I voted Zaraki, said that it was mostly random and partly pressure.
On your questioning, I later clarified that by pressure I meant that I wanted to give him the signal that i disapprove of his logic and I've got my eye on him.
You then attacked me by saying that the vote was not random and what I said implied that I thought Zaraki was using bad logic intentionally. However, what I said in 27 was that the vote was mostly random, and what I clarified fell into the "pressure" part, which was not the right word to use, hence the need for further clarifications

This doesn't make sense. I asked how your vote can be random, and simultaneously have a concrete nonrandom reason behind it. For a question identical in content, how can your vote's justification be "mostly" random if the other part of the justification is concrete nonrandom reasoning? Random votes are not reasoned votes - they're picking a name out of a hat. By your own admission your vote was not random, yet you keep maintaining that it is.

We're back to 40.

FOS on Xnadro for a number of reasons. Want to see where this inquiry goes once Xnadro actually engages with me instead of clinging onto the word random as universal justification.

This is also not just a disagreement about what the word random means. It speaks to Xnadro's reason for his vote, and how currently he is giving two conflicting accounts for his vote. So far it seems like his use of the word 'random' is to justify

a random vote that my heart is not in

Which doesn't look town.

[MortFeld]

I can both have a reason for the vote and the vote still be random

False.

I could have chosen not to use my vote to vote Zaraki and just outright said what I meant but I chose to vote him just cause I have a vote. The reason it's not outright pulling out of a hat is due to the fact I chose to use my vote for this purpose.

This makes it nonrandom.

Maybe we have a different understanding of my choice of words in this context, but when I said random, it's the random in the sense of the meaningless random, the empty pointless random, rather than the draw lots random, the pull out of a hat random.

So your vote is either meaningless and pointless, or you have to account for my questions in 37. Is pointless your final answer?

Also, what's the point of FoSing me when you have a unused vote and are free to vote me? FoS is used when you suspect a guy but dont want to vote them for reasons (vote is already on someone else, it's LyLo/MyLo etc.)

My vote is not currently unused. And I know what a FoS is used for. I didn't want to vote you, for reasons. I don't think those reasons pertain any longer.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Xnadro

[MortFeld]

Just in case you're actually not understanding, and in case someone else wants a summary of my case.

1) In RVS, people place votes on random people to provoke discussion.
2) You said your vote of Zaraki was random. Random votes are only acceptable in RVS.
3) However, you also said that you wanted to let Zaraki know you were a little suspicious of him. This is a nonrandom reason to vote - out of RVS.
4) I asked you what made you suspicious of Zaraki, since bad logic alone isn't a scumtell.
5) You avoided this question, instead saying your vote was mostly random, and partly just for the hell of it - aka meaningless/pointless.
6) If you found Zaraki's reasoning to be a relevant talking point, you effectively considered the game not in RVS.
7) So, your vote needs a justification that is not random, and not meaningless or pointless. A pointless vote when we're out of RVS is scummy.
8) Which brings us back to 5), the question you originally avoided.

My vote is not currently unused. And I know what a FoS is used for. I didn't want to vote you, for reasons. I don't think those reasons pertain any longer.

What reasons

I didn't want your part in our conversation to be influenced by my voting you. This was mostly if you're town. I know a few players who tend as town to get extremely defensive when voted, but not always when just pressured. While defensiveness is not really a scumtell, it does tend to shut down discussion.

[MortFeld]

it's to let him know I disapprove of that use of logic

Why does this require a vote, instead of an "I disapprove of your reasoning"?

Cuz i wanted to place my vote there?

Either we are in RVS or we're not.

If we are in RVS, why did you say Zaraki's reasoning was part of the justification for your vote?
If we are not in RVS, "i wanted to place my vote there" is not a sufficient reason to vote someone.

[MortFeld]

So what I'm getting are these points:

You are not suspicious of Zaraki.
Your vote was mostly random - random meaning 'meaningless, pointless, just to use the vote on someone.'
Your vote's secondary purpose was to signal - you had no intent to lynch, and you wanted to use your vote to let Zaraki know that you didn't like his reasoning, but not in a scummy way, just in an accuracy way.

A couple issues.

Why did you say this if suspicion of Zaraki didn't drive your vote?

As I said, mostly a place to stick my vote and only scum wants to use bad logic, although I doubt the colour of his role PM is 100% red, it's to let him know I disapprove of that use of logic

This reads like you believe Zaraki's faulty reasoning was a scumtell.

The contents of 37 are basically this: if you believe Zaraki's faulty reasoning was a scumtell, you must believe that Zaraki deliberately tried to mislead. Only now have you really made it clear that you do not consider Zaraki's faulty reasoning a scumtell. But your 35 makes me think otherwise, and I think my 37 made you backtrack into calling the vote pointless and meaningless.

Also, saying "my vote is mostly random" and then defining random as "for the hell of it" doesn't look good for your Zaraki vote. It was pointless by your own admission - thereby undermining the very purpose of making RVS votes, which is to pressure people and attempt to sort their slots.

Do you still think I'm ignoring your points?

[MortFeld]

The contents of 37 are basically this: if you believe Zaraki's faulty reasoning was a scumtell, you must believe that Zaraki deliberately tried to mislead. Only now have you really made it clear that you do not consider Zaraki's faulty reasoning a scumtell. But your 35 makes me think otherwise, and I think my 37 made you backtrack into calling the vote pointless and meaningless.

Actually the more I think about it, this isn't 100% true. I think you might have been just imprecise rather than contradictory. But I want to see what you have to say to my 52.

[MortFeld]

@Zaraki, can you please answer my 24?

1) Yes you are correct.
2) I was planning to, just not with my first post.
3) I vote Deimos because while I hate random, he seems to promote it. While I don't deny it's good for pressuring, random voting leads to a random bandwagon like with Clemency. Like I stated before random lynching and by extensión voting seem very scummy to me.

All in all, I didn't plan to vote on Dei, he just seemed kinda suspicion on the logic.
(P.S. Good morning.)

Are you misunderstanding my questions? For reference:

I asked you if you thought voting randomly at this stage was wrong. This answer seems to be saying that lynching at all Day 1 (almost always) favors scum.

1) Am I correct that you believe this?
2) If so, why not vote No Lynch to start the game?
3) Why did you vote Deimos if you believe Day 1 lynches favor scum?

If the answer to 1) is yes, this either means that your scumread of Deimos is somehow very strong, or that the suspicion threshold for a vote is very low. I'm still not seeing how believing that Day 1 lynches favor scum is consistent with you voting anyone - perhaps the answer to 1) is not in fact yes?

if you believe Zaraki's faulty reasoning was a scumtell

Where did he say that this was a scumtell?

It's possible I could have misread, but this is where I got the idea that he scumread Zaraki to some extent.

As I said, mostly a place to stick my vote and only scum wants to use bad logic, although I doubt the colour of his role PM is 100% red, it's to let him know I disapprove of that use of logic

[MortFeld]

Hi all, cheers for the random votes. I feel loved.

On MortFeld vs XnadrojX, it's been established that Xnad's vote was not 100% random in RVS which is problematic. However, to vote as such and immediately plant suspicion on yourself if you get called out for it would be a very ballsy and very pointless scum move. Although not randomly voting during RVS is rather suspicious, clearly not much thought was put into that vote, which doesn't suggest scum at all. On that basis I get the feeling this debate is town/town.

Not understanding this analysis. Xnad made a vote with poor justification and then tried to explain it away as random - explain why this is a ballsy and pointless scum move? And why does "little thought" behind a vote, i.e. a poor explanation for said vote, suggest town?

Look Dei, I don't like RVS but honestly? Looking at it now you don't seem bad.

Unvote

This is a very quick backpedal. The second the heat was turned up on you with an actual vote, you relented immediately.

It was a quick backpedal. Do you think it was a scummy backpedal or a towny backpedal?

[MortFeld]

Don't like Karl's 68 at all.

[MortFeld]

Just noticed Cheetory and I a similar question to Zaraki. As the questions are still somewhat different I think he can answer both.

[MortFeld]

@Zaraki, can you please answer my 24?

Sorry, forgot to delete this when I noticed he had. Feel free to ignore.

[MortFeld]

Let me clarify. Reading Xnad's 27, he doesn't try to explain his vote as random after the fact, he starts by claiming it's RVS but then states that it's not completely.

How did you get all this from 27? To me, 27 just looks like a combination of fluff and explanation to a newbie. The only game-related point to take would be that Xnad believed the game was still in RVS at the time of 27. Explain how 27 leads you to believe "he doesn't try to explain his vote as random after the fact."

This could be a ham-fisted scum gambit trying to draw suspicion on someone else at a very early stage but if that's true then it's way too obvious and poorly implemented.

What is the gambit? Gambit implies a risk and a reward. What is the risk in giving a reason to vote someone during RVS, and what is the reward?

Thinking he is scum gambiting is not why I am voting for him. I think your discussion of gambits is silly talk. At best it's nonsense, at worst it devolves into WIFOM.

As for poor vote justification, scum will obviously be thinking very carefully about what they say. Surely they would be cleverer than putting themselves in the firing line for bad reasoning (it could of course be a double-bluff but for my stated reasons I don't think that's what Xnad is doing here.)

This looks like pointless WIFOM. You're basically saying "X action is bad. But scum know X action is bad and therefore wouldn't do it. So X action isn't bad." How is this helpful? And how is it a reasonable take on the situation?

[MortFeld]

Look Dei, I don't like RVS but honestly? Looking at it now you don't seem bad.

Unvote

This is a very quick backpedal. The second the heat was turned up on you with an actual vote, you relented immediately.

It was a quick backpedal. Do you think it was a scummy backpedal or a towny backpedal?

On balance, given it's hastiness I would say it was a scummy backpedal. I'll let Zaraki explain himself before I start voting though.

I agree. I want Zaraki to continue with our discussion, but read 18 and its context.

Don't like Karl's 68 at all.

Specify.

First bit is fine. At first I thought it was a little over-the-top but it's not.

Second bit looks very buddy buddy. Also, your analysis is weird. A quick get-out would be unvoting Deimos. What's weird isn't that Zaraki's being slippery, because he's not. What's weird is that he's sticking to his Deimos vote.

Third bit looks very confrontational over something I see as pretty tame.

I didn't like the tone of the post in general.

[MortFeld]

Just to be clear - I think Zaraki's backpedaling in 18 and 63 is very slightly scummy.

On balance, given it's hastiness I would say it was a scummy backpedal. I'll let Zaraki explain himself before I start voting though.

What questions do you want Zaraki to answer? Saying "Explain yourself!" generates no actual discussion points.

[MortFeld]

Christ, this rvs argument is pretty rough.
Sorry for the complete lack content on my part, I don't have any computers available and making posts on mobile is pretty awful.

Quick easy content generator:

What do you think about Zaraki voting Deimos despite saying that Day 1 lynches favor scum?
What do you make of me vs Xnad?

[MortFeld]

What do you think about Zaraki voting Deimos despite saying that Day 1 lynches favor scum?

While it may be contradictory, what other ways are there really of starting a game off than rvs that work as efficiently in creating discussion? On the chance that town starts off with no investigative roles for example, then as much discussion as possible would be the best option, after all, votes on the first (irl)day aren't ever really for killing unless it's for a policy lynch.

It seems like you think Zaraki's being contradictory isn't an issue because he voted and because RVS is good, when those ideas are not logically connected in that way. Do you think being contradictory is a scumtell?

What do you make of me vs Xnad?

As for this, all I can really say is that I hope it doesn't turn out like my last game where there's a TvT back and forth for ~25 pages.

Seems like one way to dissolve it, if it is TvT, is for other people to give their input. Do you think it's TvT?

[MortFeld]

I don't find being contradictory as a scum tell until it happens often. It's more a sign of carelessness than scumminess to me, and while carelessness is anti-town, it's not particularly alignment indicative, atleast in my opinion.

Fair enough. Do you think being contradictory, and then not solving the contradiction, is a scumtell?

And I have no reads or leans on anyone at the moment yet so I have no clue whether it'll be TvT or not.

Wasn't really asking you to give your reads of me or Xnad. You said you were worried the argument would be 25 pages of TvT back and forth. I asked if you think the argument was TvT. Your answer is basically that you don't know anyone's alignment.

There are probably 20 posts' worth of Xnad and I having a discussion. Do you have any opinions about those posts, other than that you don't want 25 pages of TvT back and forth?

[MortFeld]

Anyway, the way Zaraki clings to his vote without reason, despite all the arguments that have been given against it, it's pinging me hard.
VOTE: Zaraki
So what are your reasons that refute #27 and #56?

Why are you mixing your actual scum case against Zaraki with trying to convince him that RVS is useful? Say he answers your question, and gives some misguided theory explanation of why he still thinks RVS favors scum and why pushing random votes is scummy. How does this help you sort his slot?

[MortFeld]

@85 (because the reply system is hell on mobile) None at the moment.

Why are you refusing to accept the opportunity to give content? I don't think having zero opinions about the game at this stage is acceptable.

New question:

Do you have any opinions about the game whatsoever? Though I did ask you about the two main things that have happened so far, so I don't see what else you could talk about, but maybe you picked up something I missed.

[MortFeld]

At the moment I have nothing to add to the discussion that hasn't already been said.
I'll chime in as soon as I do.

I'm not looking for you to participate in the discussions themselves. I'm looking for you to give your opinions on them. Do you scumread Zaraki? What do you think of Karl's posts' weird tone? Do you think they have a weird tone at all? Do you think there's scum among me and Xnadro? What do you think about Xnadro's vote on me? Is it just OMGUS, or is there something to it? What do you think about my vote on Xnadro? Does my case hold water?

I don't need original contributions. I need

your

contributions. I already have thoughts about all of these questions, but I want to start sorting your slot and you're not letting me.

Answering

I don't find being contradictory as a scum tell until it happens often. It's more a sign of carelessness than scumminess to me, and while carelessness is anti-town, it's not particularly alignment indicative, atleast in my opinion.

Fair enough. Do you think being contradictory, and then not solving the contradiction, is a scumtell?

would be a start.

[MortFeld]

The reason I asked the questions is because his actions suggest he must have some reasons to still be against RVS, despite all the arguments we gave. Yet I haven't heard a single one of said reasons. You don't find that odd?

I find it newby. He is holding onto incorrect assumptions about theory. Unless you have evidence that he is deliberately ignoring arguments to the contrary, this is NAI. My personal opinion is that he doesn't even understand what he's arguing, so he can't possibly understand the counterargument.

It seems like his entrance was a kind of

"Uhh, well, I guess I need to vote someone now. Let's come up with some nonsense miscontrived faux pas to create a half-hearted reason to push someone."

That's why I need to hear his thought process.

I'll admit, it's mainly gut.

Say you're correct that his reasoning for his vote on you was contrived. What makes you think he is scum making up a reason to vote for you, rather than newb town not knowing how to scumhunt but wanting to try?

[MortFeld]

As for #85, yes, I do.

Do you think Zaraki specifically is being contradictory, and then not solving the contradiction? This seems to be the essence of Deimos' case.

You are still voting Deimos from RVS. Do you scumread him?

[MortFeld]

It's possible I could have misread, but this is where I got the idea that he scumread Zaraki to some extent.

It seems more likely to me that he was trying to make a vote that he felt was doing something.
Whether that means that he's scum trying to pretend to be useful or town actually trying to be useful is kind of up in the air, but I think the general idea of him trying to have his cake and eat it too as scum just seems less likely to me than him just trying to get the ball rolling one way or the other.
If that makes sense?

To be clear, I never said Xnadro definitely scumread Zaraki - I just said that if Zaraki's reasoning was part of Xnadro's justification for his vote, Xnadro must be scumreading Zaraki for his reasoning. Xnadro has been wildly inconsistent as to whether or not Zaraki's reasoning was part of the justification for Xnadro's vote.

The reason I'm struggling with this is that Xnadro continues to deny that having his cake and eating it too is what he was doing, in writing if not in his head. Instead, he shouts the word random and tells me that I read everything wrong. Yes, he might be stubborn town. But he also OMGUS voted me over the discussion. It's actually not just OMGUS, he's saying "you voted me over something I didn't do, you must be scum" when he clearly did what I accused him of. I feel like earnest town would have realized that something was amiss and reassessed their own play.

[MortFeld]

On mobile for a few hours. my discussion with xnadro, deimos' zaraki vote, and karl's posts are some of the things I'm thinking about atm. You could check out zaraki weird inconsistency but I'm pretty sure he's just newb.

[MortFeld]

I wouldn't be surprised if the partner is in {Clemency, ArcAngel} either.

Scumhunting by association already?

Looking forward to seeing your actual case on Cheetory.

[MortFeld]

Mort 76: 27 isn't the only post where Xnadroj follows that line of logic (random primary, motive secondary.) Posts 41, 42, 44, I could go on.
I'm poorly wording myself with the phrase "gambit." My point is that in post 29, by placing a "random" vote which wasn't actually random, he prematurely took us out of RVS and started shifting blame to others very quickly. Now if that is a scum move, that is godawful as it puts you straight in the spotlight, especially if your subsequent reasoning for it isn't strong. For that reason, I don't see him as a scumread.

Cool, I'm convinced. Xnadroj's inconsistency is NAI. It's not why I'm still voting him.

Mort 77: So I am suspicious because I'm both buddying up to Cheetory and I'm unreasonably having a go at Cheetory?!? Taken as a whole I don't really see how the tone of that post was off. You're definitely right that 18 sticks out like a sore scummy thumb though.

Hm? Your post was off for buddying and it was off for unreasonable aggressiveness. This isn't like acid/base reactions - they don't magically cancel each other out. I didn't say I was suspicious of you for that post, I just said it was off. That's true even if you're hot and cold on the same person. I can make a post saying "SCREW YOU X PERSON" and in the same post say "X Person, everything you say is so right!" and that post is certainly still off in tone.

[MortFeld]

What makes you think I'm hunting by association? I never said that I was.

I suppose you're right. I guess what I really mean to say is that I don't see the point in discussing potential partners at the time you did. You have not rationally explained your scumread of Cheetory and one of the people you see as a potential partner has barely posted anything and has had no interactions with Cheeto.

Why Clem and Arc?

[MortFeld]

So then I ask, 'PoE already?'

[MortFeld]

Mort 77: So I am suspicious because I'm both buddying up to Cheetory and I'm unreasonably having a go at Cheetory?!? Taken as a whole I don't really see how the tone of that post was off. You're definitely right that 18 sticks out like a sore scummy thumb though.

Hm? Your post was off for buddying and it was off for unreasonable aggressiveness. This isn't like acid/base reactions - they don't magically cancel each other out. I didn't say I was suspicious of you for that post, I just said it was off. That's true even if you're hot and cold on the same person. I can make a post saying "SCREW YOU X PERSON" and in the same post say "X Person, everything you say is so right!" and that post is certainly still off in tone.

That's a fair enough point I suppose. What do you think of my thoughts on Cheetory? Don't you find that a bit strange for him to declare to everyone that he's withholding townreads? Fair enough to wait on certain thoughts to see if your suspicions play out, but there's nothing to gain from telling everyone that's what you're doing. You just make yourself look unhelpful. It's almost something scum would do to look busy.

Breadcrumbing a townlean is weird, I don't think it's too important though. If Cheetory has no townreads after some more pages? That I find scummy. As long as he explains in a way that makes sense who he townleaned and why he didn't say who he townleaned it's NAI for me. That being said, I'm wondering what conditions prevented Cheetory from giving a name, and if those conditions still exist.

It's almost something scum would do to look busy.

I can think of another reason for why scum would breadcrumb a townlean. I can also think of one for why town would do so. Do you think Cheetory was scum trying to look busy? And, why do you think scum would volunteer a weird half townlean when few other people had given any reads?

[MortFeld]

Zaraki's explained his backpedals. I have some opinions about his post.

@Deimos, can you answer this

Say you're correct that his reasoning for his vote on you was contrived. What makes you think he is scum making up a reason to vote for you, rather than newb town not knowing how to scumhunt but wanting to try?

again please?

Also a new question: do you believe Zaraki that his vote was out of frustration at being told how to play?

[MortFeld]

UNVOTE:

[MortFeld]

Deimos - Good job progressing the day.

I disagree. Explain more please?

[MortFeld]

Mort you say I contradicted myself. I did not. Following my logic would I not have believed Dei was kinda scummy for advocating what I'm against? What would be scummy is not voting Deimos even though I find RVS scummy. Hypocritical no? I'm starting to see where you're coming from and maybe I'll rethink my theory. You're kinda making sense I guess. I still however strongly believe that is scummy. (I also never said Dei was off the hook)

You're not understanding.

You said RVS favors scum.
You also said you need a strong scumread to vote someone.
Deimos wanted you to participate in RVS.
You voted Deimos.

So, either you strongly scumread Deimos, or you contradicted yourself.

But I don't see how you could possibly strongly scumread Deimos. Site meta is that RVS favors town. Even if you believe it favors scum - everyone who participated in RVS believes it favors town, including Deimos. So how can you scumread Deimos for doing something he believes favors town?

Now, you unvoted for something close to you understanding that. Your own argument still makes your vote bad, and the quickness and apparent self-consciousness of your backpedaling (twice) doesn't help. I think you are very clearly new and this newbness informed your strange and unhelpful gameplay so far, so I'm not holding it against you. But at a certain point I'll need you to participate in a way that makes sense.

[MortFeld]

the quickness and apparent self-consciousness of your backpedaling (twice) doesn't help

Worth noting that if Zaraki actually strongly scumread Deimos he only backpedaled once. I just struggle to see how that's possible - but if someone believes that RVS is sufficiently

terrible

it's conceivable that they'd scumread someone trying to force them into RVS.

Basically, Zaraki, your entire gameplay so far has been focused on whether or not people are scummy for points regarding RVS. Now that we're clearly outside of RVS, you should be having non-RVS related thoughts.

[MortFeld]

I'm trying. Now let's move on from this shall we? People just keep bombarding me with the exact same stuff I answered multiple posts ago.

No, Deimos is asking why you think RVS favors scum. That's a specific question and you haven't answered it. Originally you said that random votes on Day 1 have a 5/7 chance to hit town, making RVS favor scum, but this was refuted.

As I already said, I'm guessing you don't actually understand what RVS is, so you likewise don't understand the refutation of your argument against it. So Deimos' inquiry is pointless, but maybe you could surprise me and have something reasoned out.

[MortFeld]

I don't understand your case on Zaraki, Xnad. It reads like an inaccurate rendition of what I said in 140.

Now if you strongly scumread Deimos for that, then that means you believe he is scum, which does not go with what you said later. If you didn't strongly scumread him, then you aalready said you need a strong scumread to vote, which once again doesn't go well with each other.

Why do you think Zaraki couldn't have scumread Deimos at the time of his vote, and then changed his mind?

However, the issue I take with this is that you did not clear up the issue. Contradicting yourself is NAI, Town can accidentally too. Instead of explaining yourself, you tried to cover up your mistake with bad logic and poor answers, ignoring what you cannot answer (Deimos). This is scummy.

What mistake? What bad logic? What poor answers? You aren't being coherent, Xnad. You're presenting a narrative as if you expect everyone to accept it, but as it stands, I don't. Convince me with an actual case, not just a story.

tbh i see Zaraki as potential scum, the play just doesn't feel newbtown rather than panicking newbscum

You haven't shown this. You're just asserting it.

Right now I am against a Cheetory lynch, not when you have Zaraki making bad logic and bad arguments.

Do you think Cheetory is scum?

Now to Cheetory, this Town lean you do not give to the Town is not helpful at all. It benefits scum more than it benefits Town to keep your Town lean to yourself . Scum can say they have a townlean and then later on say that the tow lean was *insert widely town read guy here*, it makes it easier for scum to go with the flow. Just outright say your townread, it helps town way more than scum.

How do you know he doesn't have a town reason to breadcrumb the read? And why are you trying to teach the IC about theory?

[MortFeld]

By the way, MortFeld said what I did was OMGUS, this is incorrect.

The definition of OMGUS is "voting for someone SOLELY because they voted for you". I had my reasons to vote for you apart from your vote on me, therefore it isn't OMGUS.

After I voted you, you voted me. After I unvoted you, you unvoted me. Your stated reason for voting me was an accusation of a scumtell that was not actually a scumtell. Therefore, you functionally had no logical reason to vote for me. Looks like OMGUS to me.

[MortFeld]

The case I'm building on Zaraki is similar but not the same as yours

Your case on him is his contradictory opinions and backpedaling.

My case on him is about how he seems blissfully ignorant of the fact that he contradicated himself and uses poor arguments to defend himself. Let me go quote them

I don't have a case on Zaraki. I think he's town.

[MortFeld]

When I unvoted Deimos I had about two minutes to write it and I regretted posting it because I realize I didn't explain enough. Karldilkton allow me to explain. When Deimos started getting in my face about RVS I got kinda frusterated. I have the right to not vote no? I ended up getting frusterated and voted Deimos out of anger because to me it seemed really scummy to force somebody to vote. When people started questioning I held (and still do) hold my beliefs and tried to explain. That is, apparently scummy because I have an opinion. The next morning I realized that Deimos was playing town how he believed was correct. I think I mentioned in an earlier post that I didn't approve of his methods. Now, what people seem to be taking wrong is that I never said YOU couldn't RVS. I just don't think it is right.

Here Zaraki explains his vote and unvote. Why do you not find this plausible? Where in this explanation is a poor argument or contradiction?

[MortFeld]

To translate Zaraki's explanation:

Zaraki believes RVS favors scum.
Zaraki scumread Deimos because Zaraki felt forced into RVS by Deimos.
After a night of rest, Zaraki realized that, while RVS still favors scum, Deimos was just doing something that Deimos mistakenly thinks benefits town.
So, he no longer scumread Deimos, and unvoted.

I don't deny that there are a ton of mistaken beliefs in Zaraki's explanation. But you need to show why they're mistaken, and scummy, rather than just mistaken.

[MortFeld]

Mort you say I contradicted myself. I did not. Following my logic would I not have believed Dei was kinda scummy for advocating what I'm against? What would be scummy is not voting Deimos even though I find RVS scummy. Hypocritical no? I'm starting to see where you're coming from and maybe I'll rethink my theory. You're kinda making sense I guess. I still however strongly believe that is scummy. (I also never said Dei was off the hook)

Here he claims that he can see where you are coming from. But he says he also clings onto his belief. The main bit is here. "Never said Dei was off the hook". If you do not believe Dei is off the hook and you dont have anyone scummier to attack, why unvote him then? Unvoting him at that point when you have no one else to attack? Fence sitting imo, waiting for more reason to jump back without implicating yourself if a wagon on him doesnt start.

You are interpreting "Never said Dei was off the hook" in a specific way. That statement is ambiguous and not necessarily scummy. Why not ask Zaraki what he meant?Fence sitting is also not a scumtell, both town and scum do it.

I'm trying. Now let's move on from this shall we? People just keep bombarding me with the exact same stuff I answered multiple posts ago.

Proceeds to try to brush off arguments when confronted is just plain scummy.

Why is he scum brushing off arguments, and not town feeling unfairly targeted?

[MortFeld]

Fence sitting is also not a scumtell, both town and scum do it.

For example, I don't consider you off the hook for refusing to acknowledge your own contradiction.

I also suspect you are voting Zaraki for something you did - but I am trying to get you to present an actual case instead of a bunch of cluttered accusations. As it stands I don't actually know why you're voting Zaraki.

[MortFeld]

Mort you say I contradicted myself. I did not. Following my logic would I not have believed Dei was kinda scummy for advocating what I'm against? What would be scummy is not voting Deimos even though I find RVS scummy. Hypocritical no? I'm starting to see where you're coming from and maybe I'll rethink my theory. You're kinda making sense I guess. I still however strongly believe that is scummy. (I also never said Dei was off the hook)

Here he claims that he can see where you are coming from. But he says he also clings onto his belief. The main bit is here. "Never said Dei was off the hook". If you do not believe Dei is off the hook and you dont have anyone scummier to attack, why unvote him then? Unvoting him at that point when you have no one else to attack? Fence sitting imo, waiting for more reason to jump back without implicating yourself if a wagon on him doesnt start.

[/quote]
This is bothering me so much. First of all, he's already resolved that contradiction. He's not avoiding anything. Second of all, why

wouldn't

Zaraki unvote Deimos? Zaraki scumread Deimos for a reason. Then he realized that reason was bunk, and unvoted.

You are voting Zaraki because he unvoted while simultaneously saying that he's still suspicious of Deimos. But you don't even know why he's suspicious of Deimos, so how can you conclude that it's scummy for him to say that he's not letting Deimos off the hook?

[MortFeld]

Going to do your work for you.

@Zaraki - what did you mean by this?

(I also never said Dei was off the hook)

[MortFeld]

(bolded parts)This is the part where he explains. Look at the manner of explanation. He says that he realised this is how Deimos believes is correct Town play. This already raises a few questions. If you realise he believes that is correct, then how do you not think it so too? But this part is still reasonably acceptable.

He realized that

Deimos

thinks it's correct.

Zaraki

believed and still believes RVS is incorrect play.

(Italics)Here you say that voting Deimos was RVS. But way before it wasnt. To you he was scummy, that was your reasoning. This is the contradictory bit.

This is indeed a contradiction. Maybe you should ask Zaraki about it. I already know what Zaraki will say though.

(Underlined)This is the poor argument. If you already believe this is how Deimos believes how town should play, then why keep an eye on him? The rest of us participated in RVS as well. Why is he the isolated one that you watch? If the vote is unnecessary it implies you believe him to be Town. Then why still watch him specifically more than the rest of us? You explain your unvote by saying it is unnecessary but in fact you still believe him scum by the way you post. This makes the vote necessary if you do believe him scum. Why this part is scummy is clear now.

This is not an argument. It's an offhand statement with ambiguous meaning. You are extrapolating way too much without getting clarification from Zaraki.

PEdit: because that post gives the feel that he wants to nove on. Town has motivation to continue a topic as it gives content that we can work off. Town doesnt care what they look like. Town cares about scum getting lynched.

Does town have motivation to continue a topic based on false premises, or a topic they believe is leading to people just repeating themselves?

PEdit 2: I can think of many reasons fence sitting is scummy.

And I can think of many that town would do it. It's not a scumtell.

Besides, you haven't even shown that Zaraki is fence sitting.

PEdit 3: the case being his posts do not have Town motivation. He cares more about his appearance than scum hunting.

You haven't shown this.

PEdit 4: if hes suspicious of Deimos why unvote him then? Suspicion of Deimos means he believes he is scum, in which case why not vote him? He is clearly trying to avoid getting implicated.

This isn't clear at all. He might not even be suspicious of Deimos. You are basing a huge part of your case on two throwaway comments from Zaraki and you aren't even sure what he meant by them.

PEdit 5: Reply to me as well pls

I've been replying to you this whole time.

[MortFeld]

If you're town, you really need to work on clarity Xnad. If you're scum, good job spreading the mist.

[MortFeld]

A clear difference between Deimos and the rest of people who had RVS votes: Deimos pressured Zaraki into making and RVS vote. Nobody else did this.

[MortFeld]

Anyways we should wait for Zaraki to chime in as well, we are not going much further on the Zaraki topic.

I agree. This is because your case is not logically developed and doesn't show scum intent.

I'll explain as clearly as I can after Zaraki confirms whatever needs to be confirmed.

What do

you

think Zaraki needs to confirm?

I can explain the Town v Scum motivation though. Look at his ISO, do you see more scum hunting or more explanation of himself? To me he's explaining himself more.

I see him explaining himself. How is this a scum case? Both town and scum have motivation to explain themselves. As for why he's not scumhunting, it's what, his first game? I don't plan on giving him a free pass for the entire game but so far he's been the main target of discussion, of course he's going to defend himself and I can see how he might do so at the expense of gamesolving. Again, so far you don't have a scum case.

PEdit 5 was directed at Zaraki, to ask him to answer to both of us.

You barely asked him questions. I had to ask your key question for you.

What are your thoughts on Cheetory as well. And do you think algebra's PoE is genuine?

Null read. Looking forward to when he decides to weigh in on things.

And yes I do. I think if he's scum he's making some commitments that will be hard to weasel out of later. I don't think scum would claim to have so many townreads. Scum pattern is more like what Cheetory is doing, that being having one scumlean and no stated town reads. In contrast, Algebra is committing very hard to his opinions.

[MortFeld]

Null read. Looking forward to when he decides to weigh in on things.

Actually he has weighed in on things. I disagree that he isn't doing shit. I should say, I am hoping he takes a more active part in the game.

Actually, wondering why he hasn't. @Cheetory you mentioned something about your playstyle and how you think Algebra is either ignoring it or taking advantage of it. Can you elaborate?

[MortFeld]

@Deimos, can you answer this

Say you're correct that his reasoning for his vote on you was contrived. What makes you think he is scum making up a reason to vote for you, rather than newb town not knowing how to scumhunt but wanting to try?

again please?

Also a new question: do you believe Zaraki that his vote was out of frustration at being told how to play?

1. I answered this in #96

2. I don't believe how someone could become frustrated based on that one line that I spoke: "Where is your RVS vote?"

1. You did indeed, and I knew this when I asked again. Let me quote your answer for convenience.

Back then it was gut.

Anyway, the way Zaraki clings to his vote without reason, despite all the arguments that have been given against it, it's pinging me hard.

Now there's more.

On balance, given it's hastiness I would say it was a scummy backpedal. I'll let Zaraki explain himself before I start voting though.

I'm not ready to lynch him yet. But he was clearly the best place for my vote, and a stale RVS vote is not accomplishing anything. My vote did manage to draw his backpedal reaction did it not?

Your answer is basically: gut, and then I noticed he backpedaled in 18 and 63, and I thought this backpedaling is scummy.

Let's say Zaraki did not backpedal (hint: if you don't believe his own explanation, you might be putting the cart before the horse). Please answer this question again: "Say you're correct that his reasoning for his vote on you was contrived. What makes you think he is scum making up a reason to vote for you, rather than newb town not knowing how to scumhunt but wanting to try?"

2. with the new knowledge that Zaraki is 13, does this somehow bear on whether or not you believe that Zaraki's vote was out of frustration at being told how to play? You could also read this as: do you still think Zaraki's reasoning for his vote was contrived?

Since that's pretty much the core of your case.

[MortFeld]

Zaraki is town.

And Mort, I want to try to scumhunt but I'm being accused a lot and I feel the need to defend myself.

You've done a fine job defending. Xnad is flapping his wings a lot and squawking but has no case. You have my permission to start scumhunting now.

I did not say RVS was scummy, I said forcing others to vote is. (In my own eyes) When I say Deimos isn't off the hook I mean I'm keeping an eye on him but

there is no need to vote him up yet

. I say the way he plays town, because scum can easily act town. It's not that far fetched is it? I'm going to keep watching him to see if he really is scum.

This is basically the entirety of Xnad's case. What he doesn't understand is the bolded part. If you think Deimos is scum, why not vote him? Your vote is valuable and using it on someone you find suspicious is rarely bad. Remember, voting is not lynching. If Deimos getting to L-1 (which means 1 vote from being lynched) this early makes you uncomfortable, you can just unvote when that happens. Besides, I don't think a Deimos wagon would be a terrible thing right now.

Also why do you defend him to the death? Is he that important? You only scum read me after I started arguing with Deimos. Why? Are you two scum together?

is that scumhunting I see?

[MortFeld]

Mine?

You're on a roll

[MortFeld]

I'm leaning heavily towards Zaraki being newbtown as well, I want to hear more from Deimos and Xand on this.

Do you have any other thoughts?

Specifically -

Is Cheetory scum?
Is Deimos scum?
What do you think about Algebra's reads list and resulting scum candidates?

[MortFeld]

One thing that rubs me the wrong way is how he tried to divert attention to me by claiming that I'd be a lot more motivated as scum than as town (he's not exactly wrong there), but I stated in my last game that I'd be picking up my pace a lot since lets face it, I'm inexperienced and still pretty bad in general. I'm not saying it's scummy for him to make sure I get my fair share of attention but the way he did it just seems off to me.

Yeah I noticed this, wanted to see what you said before I pointed it out. It's scumhunting by association very early on something that is very thin. The timing was weird too, it was after Algebra's PoE. Why not mention that Clem doesn't like playing town roles before someone else mentioned that they think Clem might be scum?

b) During RVS Clemency had two votes and Karl only one. Cheetory voted Karl instead of building a bandwagon on Clem, which I believe is pro-town in RVS. It is conceivable that he didn't want to put his partner to L-2 so soon. Maybe to remove some pressure from Clemency. This is why I originally asked for Cheetory's reason not to join the Clem wagon.

9 is me trying to sort, 11 is because his reply was exactly what I expected. That there just wasn't a good joke to make about Clemency.

Saying "9 is me trying to sort" is honestly a non-answer, not sure why I accepted it.

@Deimos, why didn't you say in 15 what you said in 134?

[MortFeld]

Clem is a townlean.

[MortFeld]

a) I know from experience that Clemency loves to play scum and dislikes playing town. So I thought he'd be frustrated being town again after last game (see sig). However he instead seems sort of cheery and more motivated.

Explain this more? Clem doesn't seem motivated to me at all. He only willingly produces content once prodded to.

[MortFeld]

The parts for my new pc all together should arrive in 4-6 days, as I recently found out. More posts then, pinky promise.

Wasn't blaming you.

Deimos' argument:

1) Clem enjoys playing scum more than he does playing town.
2) Clem seems cheery and motivated this game.
3) Therefore, there is a higher likelihood of scum!Clem than there is of town!Clem.

Issue is that I see 2) as either flatly untrue, or not true to the extent necessary to inform a scumtell. If 2) is untrue, Deimos is throwing shade.

[MortFeld]

*inform a scumread/lean

[MortFeld]

Oh, great. I'm getting scumread in my very first town game on this site. Lovely. If you were to mislynch me today, please remember that it's your own faults for misreading me whilst I'm here playing the best I can. I don't want any: "Oh, it's his fault because he was like playing bad and stuff!"

Keep this in mind. ^

Why are you reacting like this? Is anything I've said invalid?

And what's bad about voicing my opinion when I get one?

Nothing is bad about that. Who said this?

Anyway, the reason I asked about Zaraki, is because age influences maturity, which influences posting style. I now see #133 as him being honestly flustered and annoyed, whilst trying his best to be patient and explain. A lot of emotions that are hard to fake.

UNVOTE:

And this is

not

a "backpedal". Why would I retreat on my read on Zaraki after just getting more support from xnad?

Nobody said it was a backpedal. You are extremely defensive about nothing.

@Mort. I'm tired of your games. You didn't even rephrase the question. Look, it was gut! Something super complicated about that which you don't understand?

Glad you feel pressured. And of course I didn't rephrase the question, there was no need to.

-I asked why you thought X.
-You had two reasons: gut, and reason Y.
-It was clear to me that reason Y was not applicable. Now, even you admit this.
-So, I was asking if you still had any reason other than gut.

You answered my question just fine, and you unvoted, which is consistent with no longer having a reason to scumread Zaraki. Why accuse me of playing games?

Can you respond to my 182 please?

[MortFeld]

Oh, great. I'm getting scumread in my very first town game on this site.

Hmm. Show me where someone scumreads you? I'm not seeing it.

[MortFeld]

Quote above is supposed to be from Deimos.

[MortFeld]

Assuming we have a Cheetory lynch and he flips scum, I can see Clemency as the partner for a number of reasons.

Do you think Cheetory is scum?

[MortFeld]

weren't you the one to question "age influences maturity, which influences posting style" (which is a direct quote from our last game) the first time you heard it?

@Clemency, elaborate on this please. What was the context?

[MortFeld]

Also remind me, was I scum or town in that game, hm?

He's not accusing you of being scum for the inconsistency, he's just pointing out the inconsistency. You've implied a straw man like this at least 3 times so far.

[MortFeld]

No, what I'm saying is that I was scum in that game, so even if I said this it means nothing.

That's incorrect. Saying a thing in one game and saying a completely opposite thing in a different game is meaningful regardless of your alignment.

This also doesn't rule out scum!Deimos in any way. Scum will lie about certain things, but won't (and can't) lie about everything. But that's why I asked for context, if you gave a dishonest opinion about playstyle in that game with the intent of achieving a specific scum motivated goal, then it might be NAI.

Why are you focusing on meta stuff and not answering my questions?

I'm tired and frustrated. Not a way to feel whilst playing this game. I'll do the responsible thing and get back when I've cooled off, m'kay? Try not to lynch me in the meantime.

Stop acting like this is anyone else's fault. I haven't even presented a case on you, I'm literally just asking you questions.

[MortFeld]

Okay could you compile them into a single post please? They're kind of all over the place at this point.

This is lazy. They're not all over the place. Our dialogue was very linear.

180 has one question.
182 has one question.
187 has three questions, plus one directing you to 182.
188 has one question.
190 has one question.
199 has one question, but you could argue that it's rhetorical and I don't really care if you answer it.

These all remain unanswered.

[MortFeld]

No, what I'm saying is that I was scum in that game, so even if I said this it means nothing.

You didnt say it last game, you were against it as an idea and yet you're directly quoting it now.

You're not understanding him. He's making this argument:

1) Deimos said X thing as scum.
2) Deimos said ~X in this game. He has claimed town.
3) Scum lie for a number of reasons.
4) C1: Deimos may or may not believe X.
5) C2: Because Deimos was scum when he said X, his saying ~X is NAI.

The argument is flawed because 3) and 4) don't result in 5). Scum don't lie about everything, and inconsistencies are still meaningful.

[MortFeld]

At least I think he's making that argument. All he actually said was 5).

[MortFeld]

You know what strikes me odd is the fact Xnad hasn't posted since my post and the slight accusation. He just went totally quiet and lurking all of a sudden. Now you could say this is because he had questions but when I countered he just went dead. Honestly this is weird since usually by the time I've come home from school and stuff he's posted several times over. Now he's silent.

I don't trust this silence, as up until he was accused he was contributing, or as Mort put it, flapping his wings and squacking. Yet the second this is countered, he's gone. Now I don't know about you guys but this is mighty sus for me.

Vote XnadrojX

until proven wrong.

Can you talk more about why you think he's lurking, as opposed to just doing something else/being away from the internet?

Also, say Xnad posts content in a couple hours. Currently your reason for suspecting him is that you think he's lurking. Do you then unvote?

Arguments based solely on activity tend to be NAI, but if you have something more convincing I'd love to hear it.

[MortFeld]

The thing is when he attacked me he attacked a what I feel is a strawman of one or two ambiguous sentences that he based his WHOLE CASE on.

In what way is it a straw man?

It's certainly something, but it's not a straw man. You should focus on this, not the activity argument. His activity is NAI.

[MortFeld]

@Zaraki - how does Xnad's cherrypicking statements make him scum?

[MortFeld]

So maybe I feel like I should be leading, playing well, asking questions, when this is clearly not the case this game, because as I said,

I can't read anyone...

What makes the players in this game difficult to read?

A lot of you probably aren't feeling very inclined to want to play with me again after my play so far this game

I'm not bothered. If you're scum, you'll act like scum. If you're town, you'll help solve the game. Certain things can set me off personally but you haven't done any of those.

[MortFeld]

a) I know from experience that Clemency loves to play scum and dislikes playing town. So I thought he'd be frustrated being town again after last game (see sig). However he instead seems sort of cheery and more motivated.

Explain this more? Clem doesn't seem motivated to me at all. He only willingly produces content once prodded to.

182 - In contrast to his usual playstyle. However as Clemency pointed out, he did say that he was gonna start trying harder, which I missed. Besides, I did say

if

we have a Cheetory scum flip.

I don't think you understood. Your argument:

1) Clem enjoys playing scum roles more than town roles.
2) Clem seems to be cheery and motivated this game.
3) Therefore, it is more likely that Clem is scum than town.

I don't see how this makes sense. You're saying: "as Clemency pointed out, he did say that he was gonna start trying harder, which I missed." By your own argument, wouldn't trying harder make Clem scummy? Your argument basically implies that, for Clem, anti-town play is townplay. I was trying to see if this is what you meant.

Assuming we have a Cheetory lynch and he flips scum, I can see Clemency as the partner for a number of reasons.

Do you think Cheetory is scum?

190 - Not necessarily. Scummiest out of everyone else I guess but there is so stunningly little content it's difficult to say.

Why is he scummy?

199 - No offense, but I care about what Clemency thinks more than what you think. Especially when he goes and straight up lies about my actions last game (as far as my recollection). Clemency and I are friends IRL, although currently on different continents.

I don't see how any of this is relevant. If you said X last game and ~X this game, who cares whether you value Clem's opinion more than mine? I want to look into it.

[MortFeld]

Mort, you're playing really well so far, very townie.

Thanks.

Assume I'm also town

No.

give me your thoughts on everyone else in the game. Who are your top picks for scum?

Town - Zaraki, Algebra
Town lean - Clem, Karl
Null - Cheetory, Arc
Scum lean - Xnad
Scum - Deimos

[MortFeld]

VOTE: Deimos

My vote should be here.

Sure, but assuming I'm town, who would be your top picks for scum?

Probably Xnad. Maybe Clem.

Also, who do you think is my scumpartner if I'm scum?

Probably Xnad.

Why do you want me to start giving associations so badly? I think associations are counterproductive on Day 1. I actually think I need a good answer to this, I very visibly dodged your question, had a good reason to do so, and then you pressed me on it.

(If you meta me, you'll see I said ~X in a different game. If you're curious about this you can ask me)

[MortFeld]

Cheetory, why are you voting Karl? You voted him in RVS, then said

To some extent I was leaning karl for a bit

which is in the past tense so it's ambiguous whether you still scumlean him. Clearly you do - since you're voting him. Is this vote an oversight?

[MortFeld]

@Xnad, 219 is Zaraki's case in addition to 210, for whenever you get around to responding.

[MortFeld]

had a good reason to do so

I'll explain this after you explain why you think Mort giving associations is so important.

[MortFeld]

I remembered feeling good about Deimos's entrance out the gate. Felt like some of his early posts like #9 and #61 had some genuine-feeling energy. He was my early townlean out of the gate.

Do you still feel this way about Deimos?

Especially feel wonky about him walking in and calling MortVbackwardsJordan TvT. Just kind of feels like he came to that a little bit too easily.

Algebra said the same thing as Karl in 131, but you townread Algebra. What is the difference?

Zaraki was looking kind of sketch out of the gate with some awkward tone, weird wording and some overdefensiveness. Still not really sure what to make of the unvote in #63.

I don't understand why people are still framing his unvote like this. I guess because people aren't reading the thread. The first question is: did you read his 171? Second: do you believe his explanation? Third: if not, why not?

Oh, I see. You reacted without reading the whole thread. That rubs me the wrong way but I understand doing it because of prods and whatnot?

Wasn't explicit about it to see what kind of reactions I would get to it. I find it easiest to sort people based on direct interactions/earlygame is a weakpoint for me/lack of meta is going to be an issue for me in general this game. So, was hoping doing something a little unorthodox would get some reactions that would be easier to poke at.

I hate reaction tests. I have literally never seen one work in my games.

You call breadcrumbing (signposting?) a townlean unorthodox; I agree but I'd say it's unorthodox because it's bad townplay. Now I know you didn't even breadcrumb a townlean. You actually lied and then said the lie was a reaction test that didn't even really work. I am extremely hesitant to excuse lying under the guise of a failed reaction test.

[MortFeld]

I have played with xnandraj before and he is a newbie and interpt incorrectly

Then he will be inept as town and inept as scum!

[MortFeld]

I have played with xnandraj before and he is a newbie and interpt incorrectly

Then he will be inept as town and inept as scum!

Ah, that word is interpret. Well, then he will interpret incorrectly as town and also as scum.

But I don't scumread him simply because I think he didn't understand things people said. Though I do think that is true.

[MortFeld]

More on reaction tests:

Every question I ask is a reaction test. How people respond to questions in the early game, before scum have developed a gameplan, is a big part of where my reads come from. There is absolutely no need in my mind to do something contrived as a reaction test, let alone lie.

Oh, and I said the reaction test was failed. I should have mentioned that I think Karl's tone was certainly weird but ultimately NAI.

I am also always wary of this pattern:

Person X does odd/anti-town thing.
Town is suspicious of Person X for that thing.
Person X says it was a reaction test.

Obviously you can't say it's a reaction test up front, and we can't know your motivations unless you offer them. But that's the main reason I don't like reaction tests - the use of them is NAI, but functionally they cover up an odd/anti-town action, and these can often be scumtells otherwise. I wish townies would stop doing stuff like this.

If anyone thinks Cheetory didn't lie:
-Cheetory said in 57 that he had exactly one townlean.
-Now he says in 231 that at that time, he did not have any townleans.
-Either way he was lying in 57. If you think he's also lying in 231, he is nearly certainly scum.

[MortFeld]

Oh, @Cheetory, were you saying that Deimos was the townlean?

If yes, disregard the parts about lying, but not the rest.

[MortFeld]

The "reaction test" wasn't really meant to be anything special. Like its probably closer to 50/50 me trying to get reactions to interact with people and trying to have some fun in the earlygame. Or at least my variant of fun. L

Mafia is a stressful and occasionally very unfun game. Might as well try to enjoy it beyond just trying to win.

Fair enough. I for one rarely have unfun, must be my newbie luster. Or maybe the fact that puzzles alone are fun for me.

[MortFeld]

Already found scum, thought this game would be harder.
VOTE: Cheetory

Ok, so it isn't just me then!

Was this based on anything other than him breadcrumbing his townlean?

Why aren't you voting anyone? So far I've caught implications in your posts of a current scumlean on Xnad, Deimos, and Cheetory but none accompanied by a vote.

[MortFeld]

Deimos - Good job progressing the day.

I disagree. Explain more please?

With regard to your thought process at that time.

[MortFeld]

I thought he was trying to get town out of RVS in 23 and 61

23 is a factual statement about RVS. 61 echoes the same statement contained in 23 and includes a vote for Zaraki, purely because Zaraki doesn't understand what RVS is.

How are 23 or 61 alignment indicative?

[MortFeld]

I suppose I should say - how do 23 or 61 help get us out of RVS? And if they do, how do they contribute to a townread of Deimos?

[MortFeld]

Ok. What do you think about Deimos now?

[MortFeld]

I wouldn't say it was directly helping to get town out of RVS, but it seemed to come from a person who wants to get town out of RVS.

For the record, this is not legitimate. Zaraki said that RVS favors scum.

That

actually got us out of RVS. Deimos was trying to inform Zaraki that RVS is useful, a clear attempt to continue RVS.

Saying "X statements seem to come from a person with Y goal" when X statements are objective, incontrovertible facts is hogwash. Someone who wants us mired in RVS could just as easily say "The random voting isn't meant to lynch people. It's meant to pressure and start discussion. After we exit the stage, random voting becomes pointless." In fact, as I have alluded to, this statement actually implies that Deimos wants RVS to continue.

[MortFeld]

Mort are you currently suggesting that you think Deimos is scum? I'm just wondering.

I already said this explicitly, and I'm also voting him.

[MortFeld]

Mort are you currently suggesting that you think Deimos is scum? I'm just wondering.

Why did you ask this, actually? Like, did you have a followup?

Do

you

think Deimos is scum? Unconnected to whether Xnad is scum.

[MortFeld]

Hoping your town dear. Please convince me your town. We will solve this game together. No lynch until ii read the game.

Read the game and you'll see that I'm town.

[MortFeld]

@MortFeld, why Deimos? The way you have been posting implies that you suspect me way more. Deimos keeping us in RVS is scummy but the way you said he was scummy seemed in a far less serious manner than you said I was scummy.

I hope you'll forgive me for declining to answer this straight-up a moment longer. I do have to ask - did you read my dialogue with Deimos? I don't think asking for a summary when you haven't even read it is reasonable, and I don't think you could possibly think "Deimos keeping us in RVS is scummy" is my reason for suspecting Deimos if you did read it.

Also, "Deimos keeping us in RVS is scummy" was entirely in the context of showing Algebra that his Deimos read was BS and that he should take a second look. 'Deimos had the mentality of a person trying to take us out of RVS' was Algebra's reason for townreading Deimos. I was showing that Deimos' actions could just as easily be interpreted as "Deimos keeping us in RVS."

@MortFeld if you said you don't scumread me for I ferreting wrongly then what DO you scumread me for?

Spoiler: Xnad case

Your vote on Zaraki was objectively awful. I showed this clearly. You were voting him just for the hell of it, but you kept citing an actual reason to vote him too, meaning it wasn't just for the hell of it. You can spew definitions for the word 'random' all you want, but that is still what happened.

You then unvoted him because somehow I was more scummy in your mind, which is consistent with not having a reason to vote Zaraki, but you also had no reason to vote me. Saying "you're ignoring my points" when I was responding individually to your points, and when the confusion was due entirely to your lack of clarity, is not townplay.

You then voted Zaraki again.
Case 1: he was contradictory about Deimos,⁶ and he tried to cover up this contradiction with bad reasoning. 144
Refutation: what if he just changed his mind about Deimos? And show me where he tried to cover anything up. 147
Case 2: he couldn't have changed his mind about Deimos because Deimos didn't do anything different between the vote and unvote.¹ 152 Also, he's backpedaling.² 153
Refutation 2: Zaraki explains both the backpedaling and what you call a contradiction. Do you not believe him? 155
Case 3: Now Zaraki's Deimos vote is scummy, not even considering the unvote.³ Also Zaraki said he accidentally voted Deimos.⁴ Also he unvoted out of nowhere.⁵ Also, despite unvoting Deimos, he still explicitly scumreads him.⁷ This is fence sitting. Also he tried to brush off the inquiry. Also, I don't scumread him for being contradictory.⁶ 157
Refutation 3: why do you say he explicitly scumreads Deimos still? Why do you interpret his comment in that way? And why do you think he's scum brushing off the inquiry, and not town feeling unfairly targeted? 159
Interlude: God, 163 is so bad. Your entire interpretation of Zaraki's explanation not only served your Zaraki vote, but was literally wrong. Like, 100% out of context factually incorrect nonsense. If you want, I can explain why in a different post. I'm just going to interpret the parts of 163 that make any sense.
Case 4: he explicitly scumreads Deimos by saying "imma keep an eye on him." He's scum brushing off because town have no motivation to move on from topics.⁸ Also, he's scum because he cares more about his appearance than scumhunting.⁹ Case also includes a dodge of my first question from Refutation 3. 163
Refutation 4: why would town want to continue a topic they believe is pointless or not constructive? Why do you say he cares more about appearance than scumhunting? Why do you interpret his comments in such a specific way to serve your case? 164
Conclusion: whatever no point arguing anymore let's just wait for Zaraki to come back!⁸ 167

1: shows very clearly that you didn't read/understand Zaraki's explanation for his vote, while you accuse Zaraki for something his explanation covers.
2: your original case contains no mention of backpedaling. You are adding reasons to scumread Zaraki as I start to take apart your old ones.
3: another new reason to scumread Zaraki.
4: this is a misreading. One of many.
5: I had asked you if you read Zaraki's explanation. This shows that, even after prodded to, you didn't read it. This is essential because his explanation alone shoots holes in half your scumcase.
6: your original scumcase maintained that Zaraki contradicted himself about Deimos. Now you say Zaraki's being contradictory is not part of your scumcase. There is at least one literal lie here, and this falls in line with you scrambling to maintain a reason to vote Zaraki.
7: this was because of a throwaway statement Zaraki made that did not show he was fence sitting. You had not even an ounce of motivation to question Zaraki about it, despite it being a huge part of your case.
8: hilarious (and scummy) that this is part of your scumcase for Zaraki when you did the exact same thing 4 posts later.
9: another new reason.

TL;DR

- Xnad voted Zaraki in RVS. If it wasn't RVS, he lied. He then tried to cling onto that vote through an entire obscure dialogue with me, before then voting

me

for an invalid reason. He then unvoted me and revoted Zaraki. This time, he had 2 reasons. As his reasoning was questioned and started to crumble, Xnad began coming up with new reasons to cling onto what was essentially still his RVS vote. Eventually, the only reason that was anything close to valid was Xnad's own interpretation of two throwaway comments Zaraki made, that Xnad didn't even ask Zaraki about.

Coming up with new reasons to vote someone as your old ones disappear is scummy.
Misreading and having this misreading contribute to your vote is scummy.
Not displaying any motivation to interact with the person you scumread, on the points that influence your read, is scummy. ("Answer me!" doesn't count)
Scumreading someone for something you also do is scummy.
Lying is scummy.

Xnad did all these things.

[MortFeld]

Scum needs slip only once for them to be caught. I found what I interpreted to be a slip, so I built my case on it. Looking back I guess I did stretch my arguments a bit, but at that point of time it was the scummiest thing in the game

to me

It wasn't a straw man in this case as I was not intentionally bending your sentence meanings to my advantage, I was interpreting them in the way I would do as either alignment, which now that you explained and i looked back, I understand that I interpreted them wrongly.

First, this keeps annoying me because I used the phrase 'straw man' and now I keep seeing it pop up. A straw man is a fallacy where Person X substitutes Statement X for Statement Y in order to attack Statement X and by extension Person Y, when Person Y actually said Statement Y. Example:

Person Y - The ocean is blue. (Statement Y)
Person X - Actually, the ocean isn't blue because God painted it blue; it's blue because it reflects off the sky. (Statement X)
Person Y - But I just said

that

it's blue, not

why

it's blue. (The fallacy)
Person X - You have a medieval understanding of nature. (Attacking person Y)

This is not something Xnad has done.

[MortFeld]

@Algebra,
Motivation to leave RVS is a weird towntell. Not even scum want to stay in RVS forever, where they have zero control. Why is wanting to leave it earlier rather than later considered towny?

[MortFeld]

Clemency, who do you think is mafia?
If you had to bet on one person being town, who would it be?

I don't have any scumreads at the moment, but Deimos and Xand seem most suspicious to me.

Either these are scumreads, or you don't find them suspicious. You can't breadcrumb having null reads on Deimos and Xnad while also saying they're suspicious. Please resolve this quickly if you're town.

[MortFeld]

By the way, the reason I'm not voting Xnad is because, while there is no reasonable town motivation for doing most of the things he did, Xnad is not a reasonable player. According to Arc he literally has a meta of misreading. So I'm stuck in a dilemma of 'scum or bad?', and I have found in my limited experience on the site that leaving these players alive for at least a day is usually beneficial.

[MortFeld]

Scum needs slip only once for them to be caught. I found what I interpreted to be a slip, so I built my case on it. Looking back I guess I did stretch my arguments a bit, but at that point of time it was the scummiest thing in the game

to me

It wasn't a straw man in this case as I was not intentionally bending your sentence meanings to my advantage, I was interpreting them in the way I would do as either alignment, which now that you explained and i looked back, I understand that I interpreted them wrongly.

Can you explain the difference between "intentionally bending your sentence meanings to my advantage" and "interpreting them in the way I would do as either alignment" in order to benefit your case?

[MortFeld]

Clemency, who do you think is mafia?
If you had to bet on one person being town, who would it be?

I don't have any scumreads at the moment, but Deimos and Xand seem most suspicious to me.

Either these are scumreads, or you don't find them suspicious. You can't breadcrumb having null reads on Deimos and Xnad while also saying they're suspicious. Please resolve this quickly if you're town.

In that case these are my scumreads.

Why do you scumread Deimos, and why do you scumread Xnad? 178 and 191 basically say "these things are weird from Deimos" but you don't show scum motivation, and I don't see much from you about Xnad.

[MortFeld]

The Deimos read is mostly gut from me, and there isn't really anything I can say about xnad that you haven't.

Why did you scumread Xnad before I cased him?

This is a bad answer.

[MortFeld]

The Deimos read is mostly gut from me, and there isn't really anything I can say about xnad that you haven't.

Why did you scumread Xnad before I cased him?

This is a bad answer.

It's not a read I'm really sure of. Well, at least I wasn't until you did case him. It's mostly out of me not really having any strong reads yet and he seemed the most off to me at the time.

Why don't you have strong reads?

[MortFeld]

I asked Mort because I want to know if you're pushing for a Deimos wagon because it seems like it. On a totally random side note for some reason you strikes me like your role is towny cop, whether it be flavor or not I dunno yet or why I feel this way. xD (Please don't scumread this it's just a weird inkling I have that won't go away and I decided to voice it. If you want you don't have to answer that part.)

Why would you make a comment like this if you know it's PR hunting and that it looks scummy?

I'm not pushing a Deimos wagon. I'm voting Deimos because I think he's scum, but I want to see where the rest of the votes fall. People don't seem to want to vote.

I plan to case Deimos eventually but I'm holding back right now for reasons.

[MortFeld]

Who are you scumreading right now, Xnad?

[MortFeld]

Game is way too quiet.

Everyone who is not voting needs to either vote or explain why they aren't voting in their next post.

[MortFeld]

Sure, but assuming I'm town, who would be your top picks for scum?

Probably Xnad. Maybe Clem.

Woah what? Clem just bounced down from above Cheetory and Arc to below them. Also Karl didn't move (presumably not as low as Clemency anyway).

This means that Clemency's interactions become especially scum-motivated if I flip town, whilst if I flip scum they're town-motivated. Would you like to explain yourself?

Sure. Before 226 Clem had been throwing shade at you, so if you're town he's a good place to look at for scum. Also in 273 he says his Deimos scumread is "mostly gut" which is meaningless and not a basis for a scum read. But if you flip scum, he's either distancing or town. This is one of a number of reasons why I want everyone to vote; Clem needs to back his suspicion up with a vote.

As for why I townleaned him earlier, it's because I agreed with him on most of his assessments of how the early game was going.

Why do you want me to start giving associations so badly? I think associations are counterproductive on Day 1. I actually think I need a good answer to this, I very visibly dodged your question, had a good reason to do so, and then you pressed me on it.

(If you meta me, you'll see I said ~X in a different game. If you're curious about this you can ask me)

I get to notice discrepancies like the above, mate. Now why are they counter-productive?

I retract town read on Mort and I encourage others to do so as well. Why? It's true that he's been asking a lot of good questions and being active, but he hasn't actually been given a chance to answer many, or slip up. So I asked a few questions, and look what happened!

Explain how this is scummy? Where is the discrepancy?

Also, how is the fact that I haven't been pressured much scummy?

Also, what formed the basis for your town read on me? And, assuming you can cogently explain a scummy discrepancy that I'm not seeing, how does this erase your town read of me?

[MortFeld]

Me saying town!Deimos -> maybe scum!Clem is not me scumreading Clem. Especially when I scumread Deimos. This is why I think asking for associations on Day 1 is counterproductive, they lead to nonsense like this. In Newbie 1750 I gave associations as town on Day 1 and they lead to others giving constant misreps of my reads on Day 2.

[MortFeld]

Also in 273 he says his Deimos scumread is "mostly gut" which is meaningless and

not a basis for a scum read

.

This isn't strictly true, but justifying his Deimos scumread with 'gut' falls in line with him throwing shade, i.e. not explaining his scumread in a coherent way.

[MortFeld]

@Clem - forgot to ask. You said your Deimos scumread was

mostly

gut. What was the other part of your reasoning?

[MortFeld]

VOTE: Clemency
I'm gonna give Cheetory some time to "catch up" as he is "reading page 4"

Thoughts on Deimos' vote on me?

Why do you scumread Clemency and Cheetory?

[MortFeld]

Clemency, who do you think is mafia?
If you had to bet on one person being town, who would it be?

Did you glean anything from his answers?

Also,

@Algebra,
Motivation to leave RVS is a weird towntell. Not even scum want to stay in RVS forever, where they have zero control. Why is wanting to leave it earlier rather than later considered towny?

Also, has your read of Deimos changed since the early game?

[MortFeld]

I agree. My town lean has evaporated.

[MortFeld]

Reading Newbie 1751. Makes me doubly interested in the answer to 277.

[MortFeld]

Nevermind, 1751 isn't particularly illuminating of Clemency's playstyle. He's just new and could be scum unsure or town unsure. But I am looking forward to dialoguing with him when he comes back.

[MortFeld]

What I'm exploring is a Mort + Clem scum team, and I actually really like what I'm seeing in that regard. Therefore I'll swing for the Clemency wagon, because even if Mort is scum he's been doing some great work for town, and mislynching Mort would be super bad as opposed to mislynching Clemency, which is comparatively risk-free.

You are scumhunting by association on Day 1. There are many reasons this is bad play. I wish the IC were here. One such reason is that a Mort + Clem scum team is impossible because Mort is town, but of course if you're town you wouldn't know that. The point is, you are taking a line of play that has been proven to be poor over time and I know for a fact that it is poor this game. Now, poor because you're arrogant newbtown, or poor because you're scum trying to discredit people's primary town read? Not sure.

Also, how is the fact that I haven't been pressured much scummy?

1. It ain't. That's null, so excuse me while I try to sort you, eh?

Then why did you mention it while building a scum case on me? Also, your vote on me in the same post makes it untrue, which I find kind of funny.

Also, what formed the basis for your town read on me?

2. You're questioning and activity, but who says you're not scum being the town we never had? It would be an excellent opportunity to get universally townread. My earlier read was not thought through. It was flawed.

So you were townreading me because I am doing towny things, but now you question the town read because I might be scum doing towny things. Explain how this wouldn't mean every town read is flawed. All town reads are based on people doing towny things, so it seems like you don't believe town reads are valid, at least on Day 1.

And, assuming you can cogently explain a scummy discrepancy that I'm not seeing, how does this erase your town read of me?

3. Huh? It didn't. You were null as mentioned above.

You voted me. You are also saying you think I am scum with Clemency. This is not consistent with a null read at this point in time. Are you saying that you null read me before you came up with the scum case against me? Then why did you also say you town read me before in 285 and I assume earlier?

[MortFeld]

Okay, so Clemency's push on me is the kind of push you would see him making as town, if I flip scum? But if I flip town, he's driving for a mislynch and extra scummy.

Look, if I flip town:
1)Clemency is either town sheeping you, and whom happens to not have the best gut reads.

2)Or he's scum driving for a mislynch on me.

If I flip scum:
3)He's town who's gutreads happen to be exceptional. (Who knew? But why isn't he voting me...)

4)Or he's scum who's not participating in the wagon (because they don't really want their scumpartner lynched) whilst still throwing shade at me, to get dat towncred.

But you seem to know exactly which is the case in both situations

, which is the discrepancy. So feel free to explain that.

Let's label your possibilities 1), 2), 3), and 4) for convenience's sake.

Why do you say this? I've basically said I think 2) and 3) are most likely. Show me where I rule out 1) and 4)? And, since you'll find I never rule out 1) and 4), also show me how believing 2) and 3) are most likely means I have prior info.

And ffs read 286 and 226 again and please really consider whether you think they show I have prior info. I think the assertion is absurd.

Also, this is not a discrepancy. It is an argument attempting to show I have prior info. Originally, it seemed like you were trying to show I was scumreading Clemency at one point and townreading him at another with no reason to change. That is a scummy discrepancy, but I did not do that. Now you're arguing that I have prior info. Keep your scum case straight.

[MortFeld]

Unanswered questions from people who posted after the questions were asked.

@Xnad, can you answer the first part of my 291 please?

@Clem, can you answer my 277 please, as well as the question I asked that Deimos pointed out - "What is your case on Deimos other than gut," specifically since you said it was

mostly

gut.

Alright, I might be bad, but I wouldn't be dumb enough to buddy up with a scumpartner that hard. Sheeping is something I do, you know that, and I plan to do that a bunch in this game as well.
I agree with you in the sense that it'd be a lot better to mislynch me than Mort, but it'd be best to not mislynch at all. The reason I haven't voted you yet is only because I wasn't paying attention and thought I had already.

VOTE: Deimos

So you're voting Deimos because of gut, and because you're sheeping me?

[MortFeld]

These "scumreads" are bad imo.

"I don't have any scumreads at the moment, but Deimos and Xand seem most suspicious to me."
"You can't breadcrumb having null reads on Deimos and Xnad while also saying they're suspicious."
"In that case these are my scumreads."
^Does this feel bad to anyone as well?

Him saying you did all the reasoning for why I'm scum is also bad.

Agree, and agree. It is lazy on both counts. I am juggling whether he lacks any reads of his own because he is town who lacks confidence in his reads (see 276 off the top of my head), or whether it's because he's scum struggling to fake scumhunting.

This is why I want to dialogue with him.

[MortFeld]

So you're voting Deimos because of gut, and because you're sheeping me?

Yes.

I am starting to scumread you. I understand that you're phoneposting, but can you at least put an effort into convincing me you're town? You've done zero scumhunting and your reads are just my reads from 217.

You can't sheep me re: Deimos when I haven't provided reasoning. That makes no sense.

@277

Because

I am juggling whether he lacks any reads of his own because he is town who lacks confidence in his reads

You aren't allowed to lack confidence at this point if you're town. Take a flarking leap of faith.

I scumread Xnad and gave a reason. You said "I scumread Xnad because of what Mort said." I scumread Deimos and didn't give a reason (on purpose, though I do have them). You said "I scumread Deimos because of gut and because Mort scumreads him."

When I don't provide a reason for the read you're sheeping, you still sheep it. It reads just like Xnad said - like you're scum who lacks real reads, so you copy the town guy's reads.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Clemency

But please don't let this stop you from trying to convince me that you're town, if you're town.

[MortFeld]

That's L-2.

[MortFeld]

Let's start with a preliminary gimme question.

@Clem - you've said that you think I am town. Give me two other people you think are town also.

Unconnected but don't want to spam post; starting to scumread Xnad less. Deimos I need to talk more with.

[MortFeld]

Let's start with a preliminary gimme question.

@Clem - you've said that you think I am town. Give me two other people you think are town also.

Unconnected but don't want to spam post; starting to scumread Xnad less. Deimos I need to talk more with.

algebra and Zaraki.

Why?

[MortFeld]

Also, do you understand that sheeping me re: Deimos is not valid when I haven't presented a reason to scumread Deimos? You sheep reasoning, not a person. You only sheep a person if they're conftown, and I certainly am not.

Which makes your current vote on Deimos based on nothing more than gut - fair, but not when looked at alongside your Xnad scumread, and not when Deimos has actually done concrete, scummy things.

[MortFeld]

Would you mind if I did?

Kinda, yes.

Your reason for replacing out is lack of motivation, but that doesn't add up. You are saying things and all I am doing is asking you to justify them, this doesn't take a particularly high amount of motivation unless you have to make up reasons.

Also, replacing out doesn't really help town. The effort required to find a replacement, have them read the thread, and have the town interact with them to start sorting your slot and not just you, is infinitely higher than the effort required for you to not look like lazy scum.

[MortFeld]

But nobody can stop you from replacing out if you have to. I'm just saying that lack of motivation isn't really a reason when what's being asked of you isn't particularly huge, and helping the town isn't really a reason when a replacement could be bad for town.

[MortFeld]

And, if you're scum, replacing out when pressure starts to mount is positively disgusting play.

[MortFeld]

When the IC is prodded

[MortFeld]

1. Do you scumlean anyone other than clem or Dei?

Not really. Maybe Xnad but he's probably town. I think this game is extremely quiet and slow which favors scum immensely, but I can't really scumread the people making it quiet and slow because they haven't put forth much content.

2. You use a mass of posts. Why do you not condense them? Or is it because you post as you go?

I tend to put different ideas in different posts. I personally hate reading wallposts and much prefer when someone separates their ideas so that when they're quoted, it's not a chore to pick through a giant post to find the relevant bit.

3. What scumteams do you think would be in game? And why?

This is a pointless question imo until Day 2. I have no clue and don't feel like putting my energy here.

4. Do you think time is relative to one's perspective? (As in a guy in a car percieves time differently than a guy on the sidewalk(sounds random but this is important))

Yes I do. Curious as to why you're asking this. Maybe you're picking up on my recency bias? Which is definitely a big part of my play. Not yet sure if I can call it a 'weakness' but it's definitely not the norm to be aware of such a bias and embrace it.

Deimos does indeed bring up a good point however, so I'm gonna ask a bit

His point was that he can't really sort me without my being pressured. Do you think your questions served as pressure? Did my answers help you sort me?

[MortFeld]

I think this game is extremely quiet and slow which favors scum immensely, but I can't really scumread the people making it quiet and slow because they haven't put forth much content.

To elaborate on this - it is quiet and slow because of inactivity, not because people are taking measured stock of the game or for any other reason.

[MortFeld]

Thoughts on Deimos' vote on me?

not much I can say here about the vote.

Why not? I can think of plenty of things you

can

say. Was the vote valid? Did he defend his reasons well? Do you think he scumread me?

Or do you mean that you can't say anything

here

, in the thread?

Or do you mean that you have zero thoughts about it?

Thoughts on Deimos' vote on me?

The reasons though. Although I am (relatively) new to mafia (compared to other SEs/ICs and even some Newbies who play on other sites (I'm not counting ToS though)) I can say that "You were not votes/pressured" is most definitely

NOT

a scumtell.

He said this isn't a reason for his vote, though he did make it seem like it was at first.

If you answer no other questions, answer this: why do you think Deimos voted for me?

on a side note, we should probably not hammer the replacement until he speaks

Obviously. Do you think we should unvote?

[MortFeld]

If he does indeed post and explain I will likely unvote.

260

So he posted. Do you think he explained? If so, why haven't you unvoted? If not, why is his explanation insufficient?

[MortFeld]

Not understanding the context of Clem/Deimos history at all.
zzzzz.

Deimos this game said that age influences playstyle. Clem said that, in a previous game, Deimos said the opposite. This did not actually happen; i.e. it was either a mistake or a lie from Clem.

Do you still feel this way about Deimos?

Nope.

Curious what you'll say about Deimos' vote on me, when you get there.

I thought he was trying to get town out of RVS in 23 and 61

This is a little dated.
What do you make of Deimos's posts now?

Funny, I think I asked him the same question later on. Yeah, 293. Still waiting on an answer.

[MortFeld]

[I think the worst of this is happening with Mort, where he's having a lot of engagement and I'm just kind of in a place where I think he's town and I'm reading his posts and not really absorbing what he's saying and I feel bad about it q.q]

Don't worry. I'll only care if one of two things happens.
1) You are town and you do anti-town things as a result of your not fully understanding my points, or
2) You are scum and you pretend not to understand them to benefit your game plan.

I completely get that what I'm doing this game is difficult for others to follow. I'm trying to use extremes to hone my play. See my sig.

[MortFeld]

I didn't unvote because his explanation didn't really taste right...

Can you articulate this more? What about it doesn't taste right?

I might unvote if he has more proof.

Proof of what?

Also I interpreted Ángela posts as he was a brand newb last time so he isn't anymore.

Who is Ángela? This last bit is incomprehensible.

[MortFeld]

Also, how is the fact that I haven't been pressured much scummy?

Also, what formed the basis for your town read on me? And, assuming you can cogently explain a scummy discrepancy that I'm not seeing, how does this erase your town read of me?


1. It ain't. That's null, so excuse me while I try to sort you, eh?

2. You're questioning and activity, but who says you're not scum being the town we never had? It would be an excellent opportunity to get universally townread. My earlier read was not thought through. It was flawed.

3. Huh? It didn't. You were null as mentioned above.

"I encourage everyone to retract Town reads on MortFeld"
"I'd roll with a MortFeld Lynch"
A while later... .
"How does this erase your town read of me"
"It doesn't , you're null."

And...
"You're questioning and activity, but who says you're not scum being the town we never had?"
Every Town read can be invalidated using this argument. Every scumread can be invalidated with this argument. Don't use this argument

Pretty good summary. 302 is terrible.

I have no idea what his reason to vote you is.

Neither do I.

[MortFeld]

Mort I asked the time thing because well, I enjoy asking and conversing things like that but now that you mentión it, o.o

Now that I mention what? What does this mean?

[MortFeld]

Hey Penguin, looking forward to playing again with you again.

[MortFeld]

Actually, could someone other than Mort give me the tl;dr cases? Thx.

Why not Mort? I'm perfectly capable.

[MortFeld]

I feel like there is enough content from you for me to form a position. I need some more interaction from the other slots.

Sounds good.

[MortFeld]

phoneposting

Jr is at l-2

[MortFeld]

Mort...happy to hear your case on the Clem-slot.

-Complete lack of pro-town play.
-I scumread Deimos and Xnad. I asked Clem who he scumread, he said Deimos and Xnad. I had cased Xnad but not Deimos. When asked why he scumread Xnad, he said "Mort's said all there needs to be said." When asked why he scumread Deimos, he said "Gut and I'm sheeping Mort." Not only lazy and evidence of a lack of reads, sheeping someone when they haven't given reasoning and they aren't conftown is completely invalid.
-Lied/made a mistake about something Deimos did in a previous game as part of his Deimos scumcase.

I mainly voted Clem to try to get him to do something pro-town, though I wanted him to think he was going to get lynched. I acknowledge that he might have been lazy town and not lazy scum, and I still believe the slot might be town.

UNVOTE: because JR seems fine and I like that he called out Algebra.

[MortFeld]

1. algebra came into the game like a bull in a china shop with his declaration that he had everything figured out. Why didn't anyone question him?

I did. I implied that I thought he had no basis for much of what he said and showed that pretty conclusively with his Deimos read. I townread him on the assumption that he wouldn't disappear.

He's contributed very little other than his breakdown of all the other players, excluding himself. I found his posts minimalistic and easy to produce as mafia.

Agree. Had he followed up on his suspicions meaningfully, what I said in 168 would still apply. Given that he's been largely absent and also deliberately ignoring questions, I no longer townread him.

2. First, Mort explained what a strawman was. Then Deimos gives an if/then scenario. After prodding, Mort gives Clem's name as a potential accomplice in that senario. Then Deimos uses this against him. The whole if/then request was a little scummy, but with the strawman attack it read as the scummiest thing I'd seen in the entire thread.

Deimos is scum.

VOTE: Deimos

Interact with me.

[MortFeld]

JR* and what makes you scumread me and townread mort?

Are you implying that your play this game is at all similar to mine?

Also, answer 293. Now. Cheetory asked you the same question and you ignored him too.

[MortFeld]

Glad that there are now people other than me who might scumhunt.

[MortFeld]

Exhausted tonight, if anyone needs convincing to vote Deimos I'll write up my thoughts early tomorrow morning.

[MortFeld]

JR* and what makes you scumread me and townread mort?

Are you implying that your play this game is at all similar to mine?

Also, answer 293. Now. Cheetory asked you the same question and you ignored him too.

No?
I'll see if Deimos is town or scum once arcangel catches up

Don't like this. First you didn't answer me because you were phoneposting, now it's because Arc hasn't caught up yet.

[MortFeld]

JR* and what makes you scumread me and townread mort?

Where did JR scumread you? Your question isn't even based on true premises.

[MortFeld]

Exhausted tonight, if anyone needs convincing to vote Deimos I'll write up my thoughts early tomorrow morning.

I want to hear your case

You're incredibly annoying. I show you mine, you show me yours? You have no honest reason to avoid a direct question.

I said early today, but I woke up too late. Been aggressively job hunting and I finally got an interview for today.

For a very abbreviated Deimos case:

-In the early game, he was hung up on Zaraki in a pretty non-constructive way. Somehow he thought that the key to Zaraki's guilt was whatever basis Zaraki had for his opinion on RVS. But to anyone with a brain, it was clear that Zaraki's basis was going to either be his own thoughts, or some extremely limited sample size. That is to say - he didn't have a basis, he had an incorrect newb opinion. To think that this could possibly be alignment indicative is not rational thinking from Deimos; therefore, I concluded that his Zaraki push was not town-motivated. It looks like he was setting a trap for Zaraki but was stymied when people started townreading Zaraki. Reminds me a bit of scum!Deimos from 1751, but I'm not metaing him from one game, that's just an afterthought.
-His interactions with me are terrible. Talk about someone who seems like they have something to hide.
-His vote on me was terrible, and he showed that he knew this by quickly unvoting and jumping to Clemency. I'd venture that he didn't require too much convincing that I'm town, though I do wonder what the scum motivation for the vote was. This is what I was trying to piece together by talking to him, but he's disappeared which, while it alone is not AI, doesn't help me scumread him less.

• terrible because, he compared a reads list I made (fark reads lists) many posts back with an association he forced out of me and said "INCONSISTENT! EXPLAIN THIS, SCUM!" without asking me a single specific question and refusing to justify his scum case when I started shooting it down. The last part in addition to the unvote implies that he didn't even think his reasons were good - town who unovted in this position would
  at least
  say something like 'Wow, I thought I had a case but you've shown me I might be wrong.' Instead, Deimos said 'Mort and Clemency are a scumteam, vote Clemency.'

[MortFeld]

JR and Mort: vote algebra

I'm not opposed and I will if we need my vote for majority, but I want to lynch Deimos.

[MortFeld]

Just because my posts are easy to produce doesn't mean they're scummy. That's like saying just because food is easy to make it means it tastes bad.

What are you responding to?

[MortFeld]

He didn't even say your posts are definitely scummy, he just said that they're not towny given that you've done nothing otherwise.

Also, answer direct questions for farks sake, it's insane that you think it's okay to be this avoidant if you're town

[MortFeld]

He didn't even say your posts are definitely scummy, he just said that they're not towny given that you've done nothing otherwise.

Also, answer direct questions for farks sake, it's insane that you think it's okay to be this avoidant if you're town

Make sure you bold @algebra so I don't miss any questions

This is crap. The question I asked you is so simple, there's no way you forgot it. It's literally: you said Deimos looked town in the early game. What do you think about him now? That was in 293.

I'm phone posting so I'll only answer the first part. He's sitting on the fence, like scum would.

Ok, sure. When you get to a computer you'll answer it.

Also, answer 293. Now. Cheetory asked you the same question and you ignored him too.

I'll see if Deimos is town or scum once arcangel catches up

Oh, wait. Now you're not answering it because Arc hasn't caught up. Why didn't you say this originally? And unless you explain this in a way that makes sense later, it's not valid. Everyone else has given their opinions on multiple people, how are Deimos and Arc specifically connected?

I can't think of any town reason for you to withhold your thoughts here. You've literally seen the question and directly avoided answering it twice, citing a different reason each time.

[MortFeld]

I don't know whether I should scumread Clem slot more or Algebra more.

Do you think JR is scummy?

[MortFeld]

Clem was a scummy slot while JR is giving town feel. Algebra is getting scummier and scummier as the game goes by when he wasn't scummy originally.

This is such an issue this game. You need to justify this stuff. Why was Clem scummy? Why is Algebra getting scummier? Why is JR giving town feel?

[MortFeld]

The correlation between the two is simple. There's scum in {Arc, Deimos}.

You do realize that the fact that the town in your PoE has already changed makes the method itself unviable, right? You can't isolate a set of possible scum just by determining who town are when it's Day 1, so nobody has flipped and your reads have no fixed reference point. It's not actually process of elimination if the criteria used for one set are as weak as yours were in 131.

If one of them looks town, that increases the chances of the other being scum, and vice versa.

It shouldn't, at least, any more than town!Deimos/Arc should increase the chances of scum!anyone else. This association is based on faulty precepts.

Hopefully this answer pleases you so you can stop nagging me.

Forcing you to answer a simple question you have no reason not to answer isn't nagging you.

You can't expect anyone else to agree with your conclusions when your method makes this little sense. Therefore, you are willingly declining to cooperate with town. This is anti-town play.

[MortFeld]

It isn't Poe, it's town hunting.

You are isolating a set of possible scum based on the fact that you town read everyone else. Explain how that is not PoE?

[MortFeld]

I see PoE as using confirmed town to find scum. But it's D1. Why is this method not valid?

It's not valid because scum can still be outside {Cheetory/Nacho, Deimos, Arc} (is this even the set you're working with?) and you have presented no good reason for anyone else to believe otherwise.

[MortFeld]

Yes that is the set.

Scum can still be outside Deimos and Nadro, so I can I call your methods invalid too?

But I'm not purporting certainty like you are. Also I've given reasons to scumread my set of 2. You need to give updated reasons to townread your set of 5.

[MortFeld]

Also I've given reasons to scumread my set of 2.

Also it's not even a set of 2. I'd rather work day to day. Today I want to lynch Deimos, Algebra (was?) is a compromise. Tomorrow we'll see what happens after 1-2 flips.

[MortFeld]

The correlation between the two is simple. There's scum in {Arc, Deimos}. If one of them looks town, that increases the chances of the other being scum, and vice versa.

Why would this prevent you from giving your own read of Deimos?

[MortFeld]

I'm confused, I did give a read of deimos.

I asked you to do so way back. First you declined because you were phoneposting, then you said

I'll see if Deimos is town or scum once arcangel catches up

That is, Arc's not having caught up somehow prevented you from giving your read of Deimos, and I am still trying to figure out why. Now I understand that you were saying that Deimos' alignment was linked with Arc's because of your 'townhunting,' but that was still not an answer to my question. Your answer only came in 411.

So, why did you take so long (literally asked three times and only answered on the third) to answer?

[MortFeld]

I wish I had a good reason, but I don't.

Ok. Willing to accept that you do think your PoE is good town play, and that your personality might be contributing to your avoidance. Not feeling as good about Algebra as a compromise lynch.

I want to lynch Deimos. Deimos is absent. Assume he's not coming back and will be replaced if not killed. Also assume that he is my top scumread. Do I have any pro-town reason to vote for someone I think is less likely to be scum? This is not rhetorical.

[MortFeld]

Okay. I'd like to apologize for everything said last page. (Except the paragraph about Zaraki, I really meant that.)

I haven't been able to read jack this game and I feel kind of pressured to do well, because
a) Before we joined ms, I made a promise to Clemency that we'd try to become the best on the site. Obviously not very likely, but one can dream.

b) I think of myself as a reasonable player as town, and Clemency agrees. So maybe I feel like I should be leading, playing well, asking questions, when this is clearly not the case this game, because as I said,

I can't read anyone...

I think this is why I was so frustrated. I'm generally very overly self-critical anyway.

A lot of you probably aren't feeling very inclined to want to play with me again after my play so far this game (I honestly feel like I was a better town in my scum game), but I'm gonna go ahead and make that right immediately. If anything, the experience I just had has made me more motivated than ever.

@Mort - Answers incoming in my next post.

Hmmm. Mort, why do you think that Deimos makes this post as scum?

Because he went to sleep and when he woke up he realized his 186 was way over the top. Damage control, same as one might do as town. I don't think I ever said 213 was scummy though.

[MortFeld]

Because he went to sleep and when he woke up he realized his 186 was way over the top. Damage control, same as one might do as town. I don't think I ever said 213 was scummy though.

The catalyst for his overreaction was being questioned, which he interpreted as being suspected. The line that stands out to me from the original piece is that he said that if he got mislynched, then people shouldn't say that he was playing badly and that they should take responsibility for misreading him since it was their fault. The quoted post makes the chance that that original post was a genuine emotional reaction which means that Deimos was pissed and overreacting because you DARE questioned him (don't think it's likely), or he was town and overreacting to seeing the town leader starting to post and thus had that response.

Why do you think it is unlikely that Deimos is scum and frustrated that he was being questioned? That is, he might have been sure that his play, while scum motivated, was still airtight and therefore not suspect, so his outrage

was

at being questioned at all.

I agree that 213 doesn't seem particularly scum motivated but I disagree that it's particularly unlikely that it came from scum. That is, the post is NAI for me.

[MortFeld]

So you think 213 rules out scum!Deimos?

I'll wait until you finish reading.

[MortFeld]

ArcAngel you done reading yet? If not fully caught up, can you at least give us your thoughts of most of the game?

I am reading it tomorrow. Just hold on for 24 hours more.. Can't believe I have been busy on weekends too.

Deadline in 48 hrs.

[MortFeld]

I'm still waiting for help in this newbie game re: whether there is a pro-town reason to lynch someone other than your top scumread when your top scumread is on V/LA until after deadline or right before deadline.

[MortFeld]

Jokes aside, I think for now I'm more willing to vote algebra for reasons i will quote when im on my computer

Remember to also explain why not Deimos. You should be voting Deimos.

[MortFeld]

@Xnad - first, you need to explain why one-liners are scummy. Do you think Algebra is only posting one-liners? Because this just isn't true. He's also posting content and you've even admitted this.

In fact, he's done something pro-town that you haven't - he's isolated a set of possible scum and he's voting within that set. In contrast, your vote has been all over the place, moving at the slightest possibility of town shifting.

Then nacho puts a little pressure on him and the defense levels shoots up to scummy amounts.

You mean JR? Also, the posts you quoted don't even look that defensive. You're just calling his level of defensiveness scummy without actually showing why it's scummy.

If you actually think defensiveness is scummy, look at Deimos' 186 for a post that's way more defensive than any of Algebra's. Why are you using a criterion to scumread Algebra but failing to apply the same criterion to Deimos?

Deimos is scummy-ish to me, but not too much.

Dude. Why is Deimos scummy-ish? And why is he less scummy than Algebra? You're saying so many things without justifying them at all.

I asked why you aren't voting Deimos, and you basically just said "eh I don't think he's scum." But that means you read my 394 and you somehow think that your case on Algebra is stronger, which I find incredible given that your case on Algebra is that he put off answering questions (though he answered them eventually), is defensive, and sometimes posts in one-liners. You're hardly showing scum motivation there.

I can do more work if necessary to convince you that Deimos is scum - as I said, my 394 is abbreviated - but first you need to convince

me

that you've even considered the possibility that Deimos is scum.

I feel algebra and ClemBeforeJR were scummier. Now that JR has decided to be more helpful towards Town than algebra,
VOTE: algebra

Gross. It's like you're just looking for a spot to plop down your vote.

I'm willing to vote between Xnad and Deimos today. I no longer think that the latter part of 269 particularly applies to Xnad.

[MortFeld]

Nadroj how is stalling over defensive? Isn't that the complete opposite of over defensive? You're either scum ready me for stalling or being over defensive. It can't be both, so choose.

But this isn't true, right? How is it invalid to point out stalling in some instances (e.g. my Deimos question) and being defensive in others (JR's pressure)? The more relevant point I feel is that stalling and defensiveness might not really be scumtells, but you didn't make this point. I'm left wondering why you attack his case like this.

Caught this before leaving for work. Gonna respond to your recent post Xnad when I get home or maybe on break.

[MortFeld]

460 is you defending the crappy quality of your case by pretending mine on Deimos is of similar nature. Don't have time right now but just putting this down so I can come back to it when I get home.

[MortFeld]

461 reminds me of my profile picture.

[MortFeld]

He meant JR.

[MortFeld]

Work schedule is kicking my butt. Absolutely exhausted. Quick post today.

Mort, I don't think that there's any way in hell that Deimos votes you in that position as scum. It's clear that you're the only person in this game who is care and is willing to drive, which means that scum will not attempt to mislynch you.

I'll cede this for today, mainly because of time.

During deep thought, I had an epiphany. Nacho is town because of something Cheetory said. I can't say why right now though.

Nah, you're not in a position to play this game. Share your epiphany please.

Case 1: he was contradictory about Deimos,⁶ and he tried to cover up this contradiction with bad reasoning. 144

From my understanding, the case that Xnad had is that Zaraki didn't clear up the issues from the case itself, which is complete garbage soup but different than what you're saying here. Is there something I'm missing in 144 or are you referring to a separate post?

You're right, footnote 6 isn't valid. Xnad said explicitly that being contradictory is NAI.

Odd that he didn't clear that up himself.

I liked Deimos's vote on Mort; Mort is the universal townread in this game by leaps and bounds, don't really see the motivation for antagonizing the person who is the strongest driver at that point in the game.

It's not like he had any reason to avoid attention. The spotlight was already on him. Why couldn't he have tried to cast shade on me? I get that I am the universal townread but I don't see it as impossible that scum!Deimos, seeing that I was starting to suspect him, tried to embroil me in a conflict. This would be inconsistent with the quick unvote though... way too tired to puzzle this out.

But you seem to know exactly which is the case in both situations, which is the discrepancy. So feel free to explain that.

Deimos is right that Mort's read of Clemency probably bumps down too much on a Deimos townflip. Wouldn't call it a "discrepancy" and wouldn't call it scummy, though.

I hate the idea of talking about scum teams on Day 1. I might just start refusing to do so.

Not going to unvote or vote anyone else right now. Need to look at the game with a fresh mind. Wish I could have dialogued more with Xnad tonight. Basically next step is to take a second look at Deimos re: Nacho's points and then case him if I still think he's scum.

[MortFeld]

514 and 510 confuse Zaraki with Deimos, which is annoying. If he actually means Zaraki, then yes I don't know what he's saying.

Have you read over my push on Arc?

I have. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it basically boils down to:
-Scumread you for something she also did
-Has made no game-advancing posts

Having played with Arc before, I'm inclined to agree with Nacho that she's not the right lynch today.

[MortFeld]

I won't be able to case Deimos before deadline. Might need to replace out this game.

Arc, forgive me and I mean no offense but I have little faith in your meta reads after last game.

Algebra claim... sure.

vote: Xnadro

L-2?

[MortFeld]

CK you realize this was a newbie game right? You're extremely unpleasant and I'd rather be wrong than a dickhead 100% of the time.

[MortFeld]

I'm not good at this game, I don't think my tips would be valuable. I'll reread and tell you guys what I think though.

[MortFeld]

You'll be fine in a regular game.

[MortFeld]

You're a thinking player who wants to improve. It's not a big deal if you're not good yet, those are more important imo.

[MortFeld]

Btw scum reading Alg was pretty reasonable. Especially after doc claim and not getting nightkilled for 2 nights

[MortFeld]

Forgot about this. This'll be my homework when I get home.