Open 899 - The Pizza Kids Coalition [Game Over]
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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hello friends!!-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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i was loosely reading along earlier in the game and i strongly thought dragon was scum but we'll see if that lasts. ill have time to catch up later-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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lmaoIn post 787, Klick wrote: If anyone believes in Dragon!scum and wants anyone to take Dragon!scum seriously they're going to need to present their reasoning pretty firmly to badge the current thread opinion
ok well ill read first, i could be wrong
part of it was the way he was playing around you felt really designed to me-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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ok i really should not be here right now, but new game exciting couldn't resist rereading a bit
appearance feels pretty town from the first few pages. t3 maybe also. dragon and implo feel the most like they're trying to get townread-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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i will try my best to not do this but apologies if i am overconfident it comes with the high of replacing in and then soon i will probably doubt everythingIn post 786, Klick wrote: Tbh a lot of people came in and started talking like they knew everything and it made me want to do something with my time other than look at the thread-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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mmm 164 is a pretty good post if dragon is scum-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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?In post 805, gob wrote: DE crumblin-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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ok i keep running into more of these posts, and i think from spec the biggest thing that rang alarm bells for me about dragon was how he kept repeatedly saying "wow i hope klick isn't pocketing me!!" in a way that felt extremely forced bc nothing that klick was doing looked like it could resemble pocketing dragon and if anything it looked way more like the opposite
and that felt like the kind of thing that i like to do as scum a lot except it was done in a much more sloppy way imo. i like to think at least that there's some finesse to the play
having read more closely now (on page 12) ill have a bit more to say about more general stuff once i have some time to type words-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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hm. this was like exactly the thought i had when i saw that post. interestingIn post 384, implosion wrote: There's a world where 361 is dragon + one of DV/Klick as scum and Dragon sees an excuse to try to replace the double-scum coalition that's been building with a single-scum coalition. That would also mirror my play in the scum coalition game I mentioned. In that sense that when the game was going well, I went a bit out of my way to try to get the other scum off of the coalition (when that plan failed, I had to bus them on the first lim).
it felt very much like a pivot to establish a better gamestate
but i kind of dismissed it because i don't really read dv or klick as scum. both feel towny to me. which made me start to wonder if my read on dragon was wrong, because i didn't really see a scum motivation behind him making that post, despite it feeling like it was part of a plan
but now part of me wonders if it was intended to be read that way by a dragon/implo team. in that world, they would probably be worried about how both of them seemed too okay with the coalition (dragon in, implo out) going through. the thing with coalition setup is that the scum in the coalition almost never endgames. and i know implo as scum likes to plan ahead paths to victory, and i think dragon does too. so knowing that dragon would likely eventually flip, planting this here makes it look like dragon is unhappy with the gamestate and wants to shake things up -- which points away from implosion and towards DV or klick
im not sure if that's like too elaborate of a plan, idk, my predictions of that sort of thing aren't always accurate. but it does feel like dragon has this energy throughout the game where he feels like he wants to be doing more, taking more control, forcing the gamestate into places he wants it to go. and he's presenting that as a town mindset, but if he is scum, then i think that kind of energy could manifest in making plays like this. i recognize it because i think i have that kind of energy as scum a lot, where i want to keep doing more and keep setting things up and improving the position-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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the thread trajectory of DV ending up in the fun car is really intriguing to me-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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i skimmed over the remaining paragraphs in 384 while commenting on the first one and only read them fully now but they are a major HMm
aligns pretty much exactly with what i think implo would be agendaposting in that dragon/implo world-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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page 16/17 is making me a little more conflicted than i was before about appearance
the specific variety of self-consciousness feels more like a scum thing
the thought process in the read of the gamestate still feels like town though-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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428 tracks to me with what my read of klick's side of the klick/dragon interaction was, which is mostly klick being somewhat dismissive/uninterested in dragon's attempts to engage, and kind of keeping him at arm's length for the sake of observation
which i think is part of what makes it weird that dragon is saying that klick was trying to pocket him-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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oh yeah 481 was a major post that i scumread from spec. that one's really hard for me to see as genuine-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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huh, did a double take here, ive never heard appearance talk like this. i don't know if it's AI but it's interestingIn post 488, Appearance wrote: i started to feel that t3 had lost the aura that initially drew me in-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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dragon continuing to effort near the end of coalition forming is pretty towny
mmmm idk im unsure now-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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implosion also feels unagendad at end of phase and start of elim phase posting is good so uhh-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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idk i was excited when i thought i had a solve and then i started to lose grasp on the confidence i had on my reads and then when i did i lost motivation and stopped reading around the time coalition failed
ill pick back up later-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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what did you mean by thisIn post 805, gob wrote: DE crumblin-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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do you think that they did push that coalition?In post 825, gob wrote: Looking at these pools, it seems Kyouko and Ydrasse had the most incentive to push that coalition.-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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it means that it felt well-placed as far as gaining towncred, and if you're scum then it was well-timed and well-written. i have seen you play scum (pretty well imo) but it still made me stop and consider whether it was something i should be considering out of your range
i don't think id say it's a necessarily towny post (i would say the towniest posting you have is at the end of coalition phase) but it's certainly a post that is good at looking towny. i think you'd probably agree even if you are town that there is an element of performing for the sake of getting townread I. your posts, and whenever someone has that playstyle i find it hard to parse because i just see the performance and can't tell if its town performance or scum performance-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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im relatively aware of the context, i was following along for at least part of that game, but it looks to me like you started the game deciding that "klick pocketing you" was a narrative that you were going to run with regardless of what actually happensIn post 841, DragonEater70 wrote:
I think you are missing the context about the pocketing here:In post 807, fireisredsir wrote: ok i keep running into more of these posts, and i think from spec the biggest thing that rang alarm bells for me about dragon was how he kept repeatedly saying "wow i hope klick isn't pocketing me!!" in a way that felt extremely forced bc nothing that klick was doing looked like it could resemble pocketing dragon and if anything it looked way more like the opposite
and that felt like the kind of thing that i like to do as scum a lot except it was done in a much more sloppy way imo. i like to think at least that there's some finesse to the play
having read more closely now (on page 12) ill have a bit more to say about more general stuff once i have some time to type words
Klick and I have a recently completed game where we found each other as town on like page 3, and were heavily townblocking. So I came into this game thinking "wow it'd be cool if Klick is town this game as well and we can find each other on page 2 and win". I basically said as much in my literal first post this game.
Now Klick obviously knows this, and his approach to the game in general and to my slot in particular has been similar to his approach in the last game, but there are some differences. So one could interpret it as him being town and therefore having a similar approach, with the differences being due to this being a different game. OR, one could interpret it as Klick being scum, seeing how eager I am to find him as town, and deliberately trying to imitate his play from that game in order to pocket me, but not quite succeeding due to being scum. Add to that the fact that Klick has basically been having the same reads as I and ended up sheeping me not once but twice (I wanted dragon/dv/klick/app/elements from page 6, which ended up being klick's favored coalition, and he also sheeped me onto the one that did pass), and I think it becomes pretty clear why thinking that Klick might be pocketing me is not an unreasonable thought to have.
That I currently choose to think he is town, is another matter entirely.
what you seem to be describing is just "klick is playing how he usually plays. he also played that way in the other game". i don't know why you're assigning "deliberately" to it. thats the part that feels forced to me. there's no reason that i see to believe that klick is doing this (or anything) specifically because of you. similar for the reads. when i read, it looked to me mostly like klick was working a lot in his own brain and coming to conclusions independently. even if he came to the same answers, it didn't read like a sheep to me.
what specific posts would you describe as making you think that klick may be pocketing you?-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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well thats kinda what happened. i did scumread you prior to reading the game more closely, and on reading closely im better able to support and rationalize where that scumread came from. that doesn't make it less valid, there still were specific origin points for the scumread (and i found several of them and pointed them out as i went, as well as some new ones)In post 843, DragonEater70 wrote: Like I feel fireisredsir has decided to scumread me before reading my posts and is now looking for reasons to scunread me.
i hear this like basically every time i catch up on a thread. it's just how read forming works for me-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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do you see any issues with your logic hereIn post 849, gob wrote:
Yes because mafia HAS to. I havent actually read that part of the game though.In post 827, fireisredsir wrote:
do you think that they did push that coalition?In post 825, gob wrote: Looking at these pools, it seems Kyouko and Ydrasse had the most incentive to push that coalition.-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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ok i tried to peer review and summarize your chain of logic so i could point out flaws and i got really lost because im not even sure how you came to the conclusions you did
i will make a couple of points though
1) ydra and kyo didn't really do a lot of active pushing of the coalition. a lot of the last minute decisions of who was in and out seemed like it came down mostly to DE and Klick
2) just because appearance, klick, and DE were in every pool doesn't mean we should be necessarily eliminating outside of those. in the previous coalition game, there was a similar scenario with 3 consensus townreads and a lot of debate around the remaining 2. the scum in the coalition was one of the consensus 3 townreads-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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i would recommend reading that part of the game because its probably the most important part-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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im actually not sure if ive seen a coalition game where coalition failed and scum *wasn't* in the consensus pool of townreads. in addition to the most recent one, the two other coalition games i remember with a failed coalition had that scenario as well
its definitely possible and arguably should be more likely but it is by no means a guarantee-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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can you elaborate on thisIn post 860, implosion wrote: I do think this would be a pretty needless tact for gob-scum to take-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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you found me as town eventually in frenemies but it took a while, and then i think you thought i was scum in scarfolk to the end. both times you deliberated over the read pretty extensively. chromavalon we already decided doesn't count
i don't think we've played any games where i was scum but im not sure-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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i guess i should stop being lazy and read the last 10 pages-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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that is true and is often a challenge i run into when replacing into games. i should probably just not read games prior to replacing into them but its hard to resist
without doing further research besides what ive already read, my understanding is that dragon is a relatively new (or at least growing) player who is excited to improve and push himself to be better. i think it's dangerous to get too caught up in scumrange with that type of player. i exploited that tendency myself, and ive gotten burned by it before (if you remember gimli from hollow knight, i mostly ruled him out due to feeling like he was out of scumrange)
there's been several points this game that i think are arguably "out of range" but even ignoring the concept of range, the posting right before coalition forming feels just like... something he wouldn't do as scum. not that he couldn't, but i just can't see why he would. that's why i find it to be the most towny aspect (also, fwiw, i hadn't read that part prior to replacing)
that said i will still do a more extensive analysis since most of what ive read of dragon's games has just been when spectating for fun and not for the specific purpose of determining tendencies-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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what makes you most confident on dragon being town? it read to me like you were fairly confident fairly early on in the game-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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town entrance
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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i do think that ydra reaction to coalition forming is pretty towny-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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alright im caught up
i think appearance is fairly towny as well-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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yes, that's what i saidIn post 875, DragonEater70 wrote: I am performatove as town a lot-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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i assume there's a missing word or something hereIn post 877, DragonEater70 wrote: And yeah I don't see a reason with being townread as town-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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what makes you think appearance over my slot?In post 874, DeasVail wrote:I truly am not sure of the scumread there by any means, but of everyone on the coalition, I think Appearance has fit the most with what I expect from scumplay. I know that it is common to interpret appearance’s style of play as scummy, but I just don’t think it’s Dragon, and I agree that Ydrasse was townie.
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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i was saying that your play is performative as town and as scum, and i tend to find that playstyle hard to parse because the posts that are performance just read as "fake" to my radar and so it's hard for me to judge if it's the town sort of fake or the scum sort of fake-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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what about 855 do you think is scum? you can answer in the morning if you want-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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i don't actually have a read on you, my read on your entrance was a joke because ive townread you for being funny in the past and i have 0 clue how accurate it is
my read on your slot is due to ydra, which i did mention. i think its maybe potentially dangerous to try to read into her emotional state but i think that hers makes a lot of sense to me as a town one. her general approach to the game and particularly the coalition itself felt more like town as well
deas is voting appearance so i don't think he thinks that appearance is town-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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actually im not sure if i've ever townread you for it or if i've just continued the bit from when i did it when we were both scum in invictus
either way, it wasn't serious, i don't think you've done anything AI yet-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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no, i wasn't admitting that i did a scummy thing, i was telling you it's not a scummy thing. i explained that i scumread you from spec in like my first few posts. there's no new information in you saying that i scumread you prior to exploring the reasons for the scumread, thats just literally the reality of what happened which i made clear myself at the time. if you think that's scummy you're going to have to explain whyIn post 904, DragonEater70 wrote:
Basically, you were admitting that you did a scummy thing (deciding you wanted to scumread me before actually reading me properly), but then explained it away as not really scummy.In post 884, fireisredsir wrote: what about 855 do you think is scum? you can answer in the morning if you want
This is something I do A LOT as scum when I come under fire, and you mentioned you think I have the same energy as scum that you have, so I think you'd definitely do that as scum.
Also it's not morning for me but it's probably morning for you so I technically did explain it in the morning.-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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In post 908, T3 wrote:
I'm not really sure how to read Appareance. I've gone through his ISO and tracked his reads on specific players and everything logically checked out.In post 874, DeasVail wrote:I truly am not sure of the scumread there by any means, but of everyone on the coalition, I think Appearance has fit the most with what I expect from scumplay. I know that it is common to interpret appearance’s style of play as scummy, but I just don’t think it’s Dragon, and I agree that Ydrasse was townie.
this is also more or less what i look for in appearance. i think as scum he has a harder time generating thoughts and so they sometimes seem to come out of nowhere. here it feels more like the thoughts are coming organically as a result of reading the thread, and most of the time there isn't that feeling of being pressuredIn post 909, T3 wrote: Like there were no reads in which I had no idea how he could have got there-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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it doesn't feel to me like dragon is trying to sort me or is genuinely engaging with the things ive said, it feels like he just saw that im suspicious of him and decided im scum without really closely reading my posts
while part of me would like to call that scummy i think i could also see it coming from town who is frustrated by the gamestate and what seems to be a general shift in the vibe in the last 20 pages compared to the first 20-
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id say significantly concerned but conflictedIn post 920, DragonEater70 wrote:
I really need to stop responding to posts after reading only half of themIn post 918, fireisredsir wrote: while part of me would like to call that scummy i think i could also see it coming from town who is frustrated by the gamestate and what seems to be a general shift in the vibe in the last 20 pages compared to the first 20
Uh, okay? What's your current read on me then?
you have points in the game that to me feel scummier to me than any other player but you also have points in the game that feel townier to me than any other player. and i don't really know how to weigh that or which side is more reliable. i guess in a vacuum i would lean towards thinking the moments of townness are more reliable? but i think i need to read meta more carefully to get a better baseline understanding in order to sort that out
and at the same time im worried (based just on... how games tend to go in general) that we're going to default to the lower volume slots and then they'll probably be town and then we'll just be back here again tomorrow without having learned anything
so im also leaning towards wanting to read appearance/ydra/dunn more closely to either see if ive missed something or so i can feel more confident in townreads there. klick ive already looked at pretty closely and he feels very town mindset to me
this is probably not the clear answer that you would like to hear sorry im working on it-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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can someone who has played with gob explain why this is town gob behavior-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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i read a couple games and it looks to me like he just makes stuff up and throws it at the wall as either alignment and its hard for me to see a difference-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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@klick did you ignore this on purposeIn post 869, fireisredsir wrote: what makes you most confident on dragon being town? it read to me like you were fairly confident fairly early on in the game-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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ive been reading dragon meta and i have some thoughts but its somewhat difficult to summon the courage to make a post on it
it would be helpful to me to have someone to talk to about the game here but it feels like people aren't really in the mood for that. im not sure if it's the suspicion that was on my slot or if it's the gamestate itself or what-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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i am kind of nervous because the last time i replaced into a pretty heavily suspected slot, i believed that one of the stronger players in the game was scum, cased and pushed them, and then was wrong. and i don't enjoy when that happens. we did win eventually but it was a pretty uphill battle and im not sure if it was worth it, town might have been better off if they just limmed me right away to get people out of their tunnels
oh and also the main person who was like willing to talk and engage with me about things and get me into the game was scum trying to pocket me lol
so idk maybe town are naturally more hesitant due to lack of information and i should take it as a good sign that it doesn't feel like that's happening here-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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hey. same. me tooIn post 691, implosion wrote: I'm also kind of hoping Klick or like, maybe DV or kyouko (if they're town) will find me as town at some point because they're the only slots that it feels appealing to work with right now and I feel like i need help to make headway right now
come talk about ydra/dunn and appearance with me
correct me if im wrong but the vibe i am kind of getting from you is that you are like "okay i feel like i know how to read these people (klick/dragon/kyo). and they seem town. and i don't really know how to read these people (ydra/appearance) confidently. so they're probably scum"
and like i get the appeal of that conceptually but idk it feels a little complacent. maybe you have stronger reasons for those slots being scum and i missed them
i guess i would just like to know more where your head is at in a broader, like, "how we should be approaching this gamestate" sense, which was something that i remember feeling was present from you in scarfolk-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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i guess it was also present at the start of elimination phase, i found those posts again and i remember thinking they were towny. but still-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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you said earlier you think appearance fits most with what you expect from scumplay, can you explain what you mean by that?-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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i do think that is pretty busy-work-y and something that i could do really easily as scum so idk how it would be helpful but sure i can-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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Spoiler: overly long answer to homework assignment from dragon-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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do you find it meaningful at all that both ydra and appearance primarily pushed coalitions that didn't include themselves until the very end
pedit: ah okay i see you mentioned this-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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hm ill relook at context for 540-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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im going to keep my next 10 posts short for gob-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
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after looking at context more i think implosions point about 540 being a post scum-ydra makes is probably true if there's 1 scum on coal.
i think i disagree on her making that post if there's 0 scum in her voted coal. its a waffling post yes but i don't think its a post that will convince anyone else to waffle, which is more important-
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fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022