Open 806: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[Datisi]

something something iconic d1 yeet VOTE: secret hydra

[Datisi]

one two seven three
VOTE: ben dover123

mena can you put an avatar on pls

[Datisi]

Of his own volition I'd be comfortable slotting them as town, but will reevaluate later if I notice him losing steam.

what is the point of giving out the warning in advance?

Is it bad that I already have too many townreads

i have too little, tell me more
(yes i know it's page 3)

@ben why do you not acknowledge my vote on you?

[Datisi]

@ben why do you not acknowledge my vote on you?

Why would I need to? What I saw is just a plain RVS vote with no reasoning that I think I don't need to address.

i voted secret hydra for rvs

vote on you was not rvs

[Datisi]

You feel more relaxed than I'd expect scum!you to be

i had two posts at the time of your 57, what? do you find? so relaxed about them?

most of the others i just kinda Disagree with (like the energetic thing or ben being relaxed) tho i Can see them but what's the logic behind the implo read?

[Datisi]

I'm comfortable enough reading tone that I'm ok having a page 3 TR on you for a couple jokey posts (especially in a plist with a lot of strong players). The part about implo wasn't a TR on implo, it was a TR on penguin because implo probably has a god reason to call penguin hard town.

oh i see. re read on me, is that supposed to be a more meta or general read?

@Datisi, does your vote on ben have anything to do with this post?

partly, yeah. though all three of his posts (after the first one) just gave me a bad vibe. like i'd expected him to be more solve-y by then rather then if that makes sense.

[Datisi]

what kind of reaction were you expecting out of them?

mostly just to question it.

[Datisi]

gypyx do you have any alignment-relevant thoughts

[Datisi]

oh i see. re read on me, is that supposed to be a more meta or general read?

Meta, I heard you say somewhere that you tend to be nervous as scum yeah?

that's correct, though i'd like to think i'd have gotten better at hiding it recently. how familiar are you with my my games? you were in haunted village, right?

[Datisi]

@datisi I read a bit of random facts too, but my read on you is mostly based on you saying once that scum!you is nervous

so i went to check that out, and in post game there you said you really thought i was town while reading

i'm half-tempted to just townbin this for now because this seems like such a bizarre read???

[Datisi]

Unvote

VOTE: ben dover123

@mena, tl;dr on notsci, aff, infinity?

I may or may not be lying about exactly one (1) of my reads

:thonk:

[Datisi]

if i keep calling you mena throughout the whole game are you gonna just ignore me

[Datisi]

also is ignoring my slot which is ?

what

consider that infinity's read on you makes very little sense as you have noted

then vote scipio?

are these two supposed to be related

i have considered it

i like my ben vote

[Datisi]

also is ignoring my slot which is ?

1 what

consider that infinity's read on you makes very little sense as you have noted

then vote scipio?

2 are these two supposed to be related

3 i have considered it

i like my ben vote

(1) it is "?"

(2) mabe

(3) consider... x2?

(1) i don't get how/where was he ignoring your slot
(also i feel like there's a joke or something in (1) that i'm missing)

(2) i don't get it

(3) ok i did

[Datisi]

also is ignoring my slot which is ?

1 what

consider that infinity's read on you makes very little sense as you have noted

then vote scipio?

2 are these two supposed to be related

3 i have considered it

i like my ben vote

(1) it is "?"

(2) mabe

(3) consider... x2?

(1) i don't get how/where was he ignoring your slot
(also i feel like there's a joke or something in (1) that i'm missing)

(2) i don't get it

(3) ok i did

(1) I was like half shitposting, but he didn't include me in his list of TRs or give any reason for why at the time

(2) it is a humorous misspelling of "maybe"

(3) soooooo..?

(1) well how was i supposed to know that
also do you mean he was *supposed* to be townreading you at that point or?

(2) i know it's supposed to be a humorous misspelling of the english word "maybe", i was hoping you would further elaborate on how statements 1 and 2 in the post 141 are allegedly supposed to be related one to another

(3) i still don't think it's scummy

i said the word "supposed" too many times in this post

[Datisi]

bridge is town

i think i missed this earlier
what prompted this?

oh, if you thought that one post from ben felt really forced, why're you still voting penguin?

[Datisi]

i'm digging scipio's 169. like, i don't think any of those are *good* reasons to townread mena, but it reads honest.

isis's catchup post took me way too long to read bc of how many links i had to actually click
ok but do you have any ai thoughts on-- not quite no but thanks for asking

i actually agree with implo's 198 and frankly that scares me

@skitt why is ben townie??

i actually like my current vote where it is atm

tell me more?

I would like to know others' thoughts on this post actually

my best guess is that the train of thought is that, if someone doesn't find that post townie, they're scum because they're trying to stop All The Townreads that are supposedly gonna amass there. which like, it was townie, but not *that* townie. don't think isis is scum for it, though.

i don't like any of ben's posts on page 11

Why does it matter? Levels of engagement are tricky to fake as scum.

sure, they're tricky, but they're not *impossible*. if he knows that's what you're looking at, he could play to that angle?

also what about mena's posting is a solid townread to you?

[Datisi]

Ime scum in general want their posts to sound reasonable, but posts that make no sense are scum-indicative for isis in my experience. Really not sure why scum!isis comes out the gate with a push on town!skitt/mena that's verifiably wrong, and I'd like skitt/mena to come up with a possible explanation for that.

elaborate on this? like at first you said that posts that make no sense are scum!indicative for isis, then isis's verifiably wrong push on skitt isn't scum!indicative? or am missing the difference between nonsense and verifiably wrong?

good vibes from penguin in 279 (and adding 296 to that too). (though there were vague good vibes before too but this is the first time i feel like i can point to a post and say "good vibes right here")

oh look seCret head is here oh gee i wonder who that is

ico, is that gonna be the extent of your catchup? i wanna see more

hot fucking take:
327 is literally the most ai post that slot has made so far
also it's town!indicative

[Datisi]

(not a pocket attempt)

why you gotta say it like that

i was gonna ask if you had developed any more thoughts on ben after 323

do you wanna try to sell me on isis?

also that's like 6/10 iconeum impression at best, the dragon gif doesn't even have a "rawr!" written anywhere

[Datisi]

ok but like do you ~agree~ with the vote or are you just minimizing hydra dissonance

[Datisi]

i'm scumleaning gypyx but townleaning ico, help

recent gypyx posts feel like arguing for the sake of arguing

pedit: oh hello
what's changed your mind about the hydra?

[Datisi]

lol same second post

it's aaron fucking frost

[Datisi]

yes hello aaron fucking frost i missed you

do you have any Insightful Insights on this game of jk9++ that we are currently participating in

[Datisi]

hot fucking take:
327 is literally the most ai post that slot has made so far
also it's town!indicative

Why is it town indicative? I can buy it being the most useful thing they've said but it seems like it could be scum annoyed at a consensus townread and trying to contest it without really contesting it.

ok this is gonna be a bit of a messy read but hear me out. note that i have some ~25 games with dragon at this point.

the last game we played together was mini normal 2180, where he was scum and i was town. he only started posting on day 2 (because reasons) and soon afterwards i was able to tell that Something was Wrong there. post 327 here is a complete 180 from his entire play in that game, it just reads as such genuine ~paranoia~. the thought of trying to undermine the consensus townread did cross my mind for a second, but (1) i'm p sure he knows it's gonna take much more than a vague paranoia shot at me to get that execution, and (2) right after, he's calling out townpings on me and calling my takes townie. doesn't make sense.

unless it was specifically made to pocket me, i don't see that post being made from scum!ico, and gut is strongly telling me it wasn't.

[Datisi]

in other news, scipio is still pretty townie. i think his reasons for towreading people aren't actually that solid - it's only gonna be so long before he gets badly burned for using "scum would be more self-conscious here" - but y'know i think it's coming from a genuine place so it is what it is.

[Datisi]

hello guess who's suffering from insomnia

tbh this now just feels like a dogpile with a wagon this quick. I can't say that scum is on this wagon but it feels way too smooth with these 3 consecutive votes here.

is this all? like, none of the votes ping you anywhere? not questioning anyone? just "oh idk if scum here but quick wagon"?

[Datisi]

Uh, no it isn't. The more time we have to discuss the better. We always want to have maximum info before a hang, especially D1, and people these days have forgotten about this train of thought.

no

[Datisi]

i'm the one who showed you the empirical proof after all

[Datisi]

bleh i typed up a post asking what changed taht you're now voting ben but you were never the one townreading him, it was skitt

does skitt subscribe to the ben vote now?
also skitt tldr on me and Infinity reads would be grand

[Datisi]

he played for a couple of days in a game that i was modding recently.

[Datisi]

Is ms meta quickhammers or something?

long days breed town apathy. nobody is saying we gotta be quickhammering.

[Datisi]

@ben, i think he was asking and i'm curious too, why are you apparently worried about the latter end of the wagon but not the former?

[Datisi]

re notsci's 439:

i'm not necessarily concerned about scum!gypyx finding an avenue to fool town!notsci, i'm moreso thinking about whether notsci calling that out in the first place is indicative of alignment, and in which way, you feel?

i agree the shift from 327 to 328 looks a certain ~weird~, but /shrug, i think it's genuine. at least, feels more genuine than the entirety of the last game.

why do you like that line? like when i read it last night, i thought it was uncaring, but in a scummy way. like scum who's getting voted by town, feels they have to like, start making reads to get out of trouble, and that town!them *would* find the wagon scummy, but can't actually find it scummy bc informed pov, so they throw out a weak "there might be scum on my wagon" throwaway line.

i'd say probably the best way to read me is direct/real-time interaction, but /shrug. how *do* you feel about datisi?

oh, you're still reading the hYdra as town, no? your vote's still on them.

[Datisi]

if you are scumleaning one head, why is that? What did the other head do to make you townread that one? We are both voting for Isis, so what is different?

sorry to break the roleplay but i can't explain it without that

because you're two different players who i have different ideas about and different ways of reading? i already said i didn't like gypyx's weird and imo pointless argument w infinity, also some of his reasons for voting isis feels... nai at worst? like following the trend / mimicking what other people are doing? also you know why i'm townleaning you, so. it's not like my entire read on you is based on your vote only? (if you're about to ask how i feel about the fact that *you* are voting isis, idk it's *fine*. not great, not terrible.)

also the fact that mena felt similarly about your intro is making me feel i'm not insane for seeing it so

[Datisi]

i'm getting an evil vibe from the isis wagon

what happens if i

VOTE: aaronffrost

[Datisi]

dayvig: datisi

infinity/scipio/datisi/pp/bridgeburners can be the townblock for today (ourselves included)

-seCret

STOP

-QB

?

[Datisi]

I would like to know what about the isis wagon feels evil and why, btw dats

Also, would like to know why it’s AFF?

-QB

i don't know. i get a bad feeling from the fact the game was after ben and she kept calling ben townie and now it's slowly turning against her and she is just making posts like 465 which i feel like don't help her case at all? like this sorta quietness/shutting down is something i'd maybe expect from newer scum but not like, isis!scum?

can i say ~gut~? earlier in the game i got an off vibe from him for a bit but i ignored it bc i was more interested in ben at the time. now i feel like a good number of his posts doesn't actually serve a purpose (e.g. 444, 446, 459) and i didn't like his vote on isis

[Datisi]

i dunno, there's playstyle posting without purpose (like shitposting) and there's posting without purpose but trying to mask it as Actual Useful Content
i think the posts i linked are in the latter category

i don't think the vote is good faith, there's weird shade-but-not-really on isis from aaron (293, 367) and then he just votes her when the wagon's growing there, the phrasing around it feels weird and performative in a way and i Don't Like It

[Datisi]

I think you are adding a connotation from tunneling than anything. I don't think he doesn't care he just doesnt want to stamp his feet and make us look one place when hes not confident it's the right place to look. I think calling a wagon scumpushed is such an easy thing to do as either side of an alignment and him doing the more difficult thing in being apprehensive and nonchalant gave me good vibes.

If you put a gun to my head I'd say you were town. But I said you were town in haunted village too. I don't think I've got a good grasp on how far you've come since smuggler's port.

And I offered my vote for a limerick and noone has jumped on it. Looking at the recent votecount, I don't hate who is on the Isis wagon but I still think she's town and don't want to vote there. I'm townreading ben. I could vote notmaf for being notmaf but I did that in masons and monks and was wrong and actually want to feel solid about pushing something.

mmmm.

VOTE: Schiavetto

i started typing out a reply how i don't think he's doing the more difficult thing by appearing ~nonchalant~ because finding scumreads as scum and having them appear genuine can be a more difficult thing than saying "i dunno" but having it typed out it felt like tunneling garbage. i should probably reread that interaction, preferably at a time that isn't 2am.

i don't want to be reminded of that game

i was gonna ask why are you voting for schiavetto if you want to feel solid about pushing something (or rather why do you feel solid about pushing schiavetto) but your recent post pretty much answers it so

-From what I can tell, Gypyx head is being townread for energy-levels/engagement mostly? What's the point of comparison for that, and what would you call "energetic" for them? Volume, tone, etc.? Doesn't feel like an (immediately) useful indicator to me w/o some frame of reference

Ask notsci/datisi, I think gypyx tends to be less engaged in terms of both activity and tone as scum (iow, it's a meta read)

the only useful game for metareading gypyx for me is a game he was scum in (since the games i am scum aren't useful to me meta-wise bc informed perspective) and he had like, a very gutscummy tone. he doesn't have it this game, though that was a while ago. though though i'm townreading the other head so whatever.

STOP

i'd still like to know what this was/is about.

[Datisi]

- i don't particularly like dats' take in 483 and 486

what do you not like about them?

@implo, can you tell me what you found ~transparently town~?

Is Datisi like, a notably good scum player?

Not particularly

VOTE: AaronFrost
but with an eyeroll

why's aaron scum, isis?

oh my god love the youtube readslist
back to game stuff, i think i like the readslist from schiavetto. especially ben & aaron thoughts, i feel like they mimic my own. should i be worried about getting pocketed here?

what do you dislike about the isis wagon?

i said it earlier, as a whole i didn't really vibe with her reaction to getting wagoned as an experienced-scum reaction. like calling ben townie when she could've started pushing there (and yeah i'm kinda ignoring them being s/s for now but if either of them flips scum this might be an interesting part to come back to) and just weakly confirming a townie feeling on implo is just *not* how i'd expect scum to react in that situation, like i'd rather expect them to start going after *someone*

of course now she's voting *you* for reasons i don't quite get so assdkjfhk

i think? skitt unvoting isis in 559 is +town
i'd imagine scum!skitt keeps pushing there
but also do i know how to read skitt
the answer is no

do people even read these wallposts? should i start separating these into multiple posts?

I thought it was fairly well known that I am against explicit discussion of townblocs/forming townblocs in almost a direct inverse proportion to how much I like actually having them

i actually did not know/remember that
i thought it had something to do with your read on me, since like, before that was a post where you (hilariously and originally) tried to dayvig me and that post was halting a townblocc that i was in

i thought you were townreading me?

and /shrug. usually at this point i'd have a scumread(s) i believed in enough to start pushing them but this whole game feels like mud right now because i've seen at least some townie things from like, everyone here (except maybe ben but i feel like that requires reevaluation, and N_M but that's N_M.)

so now it's either idle around and wait until my gut really goes !!! at something or reread parts of the game and start pushing bullshit until i figure something out
i haven't yet decided what i want to do with my life

(oh yeah, i lied yesterday. i also played with ben for like 5 minutes in jungle oligarchy, he repped in close to eod1 and immediately got nightkilled, and i was townreading him but i was also townreading his predecessor so yeah.)

[Datisi]

VOTE: AFF we need wagons and Isis isn't one I'm joining.

have your reads changed in any way in the last ~18 hours and if so, how?

[Datisi]

VOTE: AFF we need wagons and Isis isn't one I'm joining.

have your reads changed in any way in the last ~18 hours and if so, how?

No, they have remained the same since then. Nothing has changed for me yet.

ok so can you talk to me about why you're voting aff now then? you said earlier he's "rather null" and that you wanna wait a bit until voting. the only +town thing you mentioned about isis was that the early attack was more likely to be bad town. is that still the case? is that the whole reason behind not wanting to join the isis wagon? bc i'm still struggling to follow your thought process here and if you're town i'd really like it if you could show me that?

[Datisi]

@Datisi

why does it feel like you're sort of backing down from your push on me when you were the one who got it started in the first place with that spicy vote? It's weird to me because there has been some resistance to the push on me, but not

that

much and I feel like you should be interacting with me a little more to try and figure out my alignment, but there just doesn't seem like much effort to read me at all.

Your play around the top two wagons feels pretty wishy-washy right now, you mentioned you didn't vibe with the Isis wagon and then you started the wagon onto me then didn't do much with it when it picked up steam other than an apparent dislike of Isis and ben dover's vote on me.

i don't think i feel like i'm backing down?? like sure i started it, why should that mean that i'd need to be some sorta force behind it? or even that i'm *that* certain in it? and i don't think i need to be interacting with you to be figuring out your alignment? you've pretty much already responded to things that i found suspicious about you (564) which like, *fine*, but i don't see much purpose arguing with you if your response is gonna be "playstyle".

that's just not how i play. if i thought you were 100% scum, i'd be saying that. in a gamestate like this (where i'm aware my reads are probably not top notch quality), i'm looking for something to grab my attention - and what's grabbed my attention was their votes on you.

[Datisi]

I wanted my reads to sit out a bit more, I never said I was going to wait until voting.

Yes, I am against the Isis wagon because her bad attack feels to come from town more than not, and that seems to be the driving force behind her entire wagon (the bad attack is scummy). I dislike the latter thought process and so in order to counter the wagon/make my serious vote I decided to join AFF.

i took the "i wanted my reads to sit out a bit more" to mean "before i place my vote"?

i guess i was wondering if you have an opinion on anything else she's done? also i know you said you could compromise on aff, but i don't think it's that time in the day yet where you *have* to compromise on someone. like, is aff the same level as all the rest of your null reads?

[Datisi]

oh boy oh boy oh boy okay.

VOTE: AFF we need wagons and Isis isn't one I'm joining.

have your reads changed in any way in the last ~18 hours and if so, how?

No, they have remained the same since then. Nothing has changed for me yet.

ok so can you talk to me about why you're voting aff now then? you said earlier he's "rather null" and that you wanna wait a bit until voting. the only +town thing you mentioned about isis was that the early attack was more likely to be bad town. is that still the case? is that the whole reason behind not wanting to join the isis wagon? bc i'm still struggling to follow your thought process here and if you're town i'd really like it if you could show me that?

This seems like a scumpost to me. The last line is level zero, extremely towny to post. Datisi knows it's extremely townie to post. But I don't think Datisi organically posted it. It reads like a plastic cake to me. like. this post has 6-7 different lines of inquiry trying to tease out of ben to "solve" him and it seems like overkill and the organic version of this post would focus either on the AaronFrost read or the Isis read.

like.
idk look at some of this diction

ok so what exactly is the issue with the post having multiple lines of inquiry? like at some point i realized ben's answers are too short and he doesn't explain himself enough for my liking. i've seen that in townies who (for whatever reason) only show parts of their thought process but i've also seen it in scum who's struggling to fake their reads and is responding in short answers. ime a good way to figure out which one it is is by giving directed questions, as opposed to vague ones. also like, what even gives you the idea that the """organic""" version of that post would have to focus on one or the other?

[Datisi]

like, is aff the same level as all the rest of your null reads?

Also, no AFF is in the lower half or so of my nulls.

like this ^^ is what i mean. i get that i didn't spell it out but i'm obviously interested in why aff is where he is in his reads. i used to think this ~responding only to the letter~ thing was scum indicative but i've been burned a couple of times by that. like, when i see someone is responding to me in that manner, asking more nitpicky questions to get answers out of them is scummy because ... ?

[Datisi]

(also while we're at it, why *is* here there, ben?)

[Datisi]

I'm voting Datisi pretty much just for that one post + maybe an internalized expectation that he would obvtown that set his par for course a bit rigged

I expect to think "oh that post is pretty towny" for Datisi more than most players. I've only played with him one time that I wasn't scum and he was super super towny. I tend to like to grade people on a curve, because some people have a kind of townie baseline or scummy baseline.

ok i wanna talk about this.

isis is talking about autumnal mafia here. (mena and ico were also playing in that game, ftr.) this is one of the games in which i was painfully obvtown. and while that was all fun and games, since then i've had towngames in which i was *not* as painfully obvtown, and people who had experience with that game sometimes went "wow, datisi isn't as townie here as he was back there, is he scum?" and every single time that happened, i was town.

now, what's actually *bothering* me here is that isis did use the argument "datisi isn't as townie in this game as he was in autumnal" before, and she used it when she was scum against me.

also also, that second part is false. town!isis also played with town!me in why gun??. and while i myself would argue that i was decently townie that game, i'm p sure she was scumreading me for a good part of day one.

[Datisi]

The thing that confuses me is how Datisi didn't get why I was voting AFF like I held off on voting when I did state that I would compromise on voting AFF before but maybe I worded it too vaguely.

what confused me is that you said "I could compromise on voting [aff] now but I want to let my reads sit a bit more". i thought that meant "i want to let my reads sit a bit more before i vote". you soon after voted, which i took to mean you let your reads ~sit~ (which i took to mean let them get firmer / develop more, maybe that's where we're talking past each other) so i asked you if anything in them changed, to which you said no. that confused me because i thought the very act of you making the vote meant that your reads have, in some way, changed.

i kinda don't wanna be dragging this on bc i don't feel it's useful for anyone involved but i also have the urge to explain myself so here we are.

[Datisi]

we will talk about Datisi in eLo he always goes to eLo
that doesn't mean he's scummy it's just TRADITION

i actually haven't been in eLo as town in a hot minute
scum keeps killing me before it

[Datisi]

(also while we're at it, why *is* here there, ben?)

"why is here there" lmao
should say "why is

he*

there"

[Datisi]

Can you explain what you didn't like about the other votes on me?

what do you mean? the other votes on you are schiavetto, which i said is a fine vote, and n_m, who is *gestures vaguely* n_m.

[Datisi]

the other two votes, ben and isis

lol oops

they both came at a seemingly opportunistic time without proper explanation, and kinda out of nowhere. that last point is maybe less so for ben than for isis, since i might have misunderstood his original post on you, but shrug.

[Datisi]

cool.
VOTE: isis

what made you think so and who is scum then?

[Datisi]

You don't feel like the Isis wagon is bad now?

no

[Datisi]

cool.
VOTE: isis

what made you think so and who is scum then?

I think her posting in the last few pages shows a very natural and logical though process (some examples are 617-624, 648, 652, 669, 672) that if it comes from scum, it's very well manufactured to look natural, but i genuinely feel like her posting has become more and more organic over time.

I also don't think the vanity vote on you is something that comes from scum when things have sort of stalled and and she could probably get away with staying on my wagon until end of day (which if she is scum would be her best chance of staying alive). It's just a weird move that doesn't make sense for scum!Isis to make in this situation.

do you agree with 618? from my pov it felt like being nitpicked over minute unimportant details. does the knowledge of "isis has seen town!me be *not* as townie" challenge your view? and what is your read on me, anyway?

and like, i wanna disagree with that second part, bc while things have *stalled*, they definitely don't feel *stable*. most of the people are going "oh, i'm townreading too many people, i'm not scumreading anyone", and i feel that in that

economy

gamestate, things can turn around quickly. (like, look at the way your wagon popped up shortly after i gave some much less-then-stellar reasoning for it.)

[Datisi]

I mean, if I knew my exact thought process behind this thought I would've explained it lol.

i feel like every once in a while paranoia starts creeping up on me about scipio

and then he goes ahead and drops a line like this and i'm like !!!
i feel like i felt this so many times as town
how does one not townread him for it

[Datisi]

(also while we're at it, why *is* [aff] [in the lower half of your nulls], ben?)

@ben

also if there's ordering between your ~nulls, i'd like to see that too.

[Datisi]

scipio is a newer player, year? i know that reads like that (weird gutreads that i cannot quite explain) were (1) a thing i very often had as town and (2) a thing that i struggle(d) to fake as scum

and it struck me as genuine

but idk lol maybe i'm just projecting

[Datisi]

Do I have to agree with all of Isis's posts in order to townread Isis? Because that's not really what my read on Isis is based on.

no, but i think i didn't express myself well. i wanted to ask you to look at it from my pov - isis has seen me be not-townie, and to me it felt like a shitpush. you cited some of those posts as ~natural and logical~. do you still view them as so, after knowing about the meta?

now, what's actually *bothering* me here is that isis did use the argument "datisi isn't as townie in this game as he was in autumnal" before, and she used it when she was scum against me.

Do you have a reason that's alignment dispositive? The way I play scum is to emulate my towngame, so that just kind of all lines up, to me.

I forgot about Why Gun, as much as I racked my brain. It does seed doubt. All the Your Turn To Die avatars were so scummy.

because i feel like town!you should know better?? that me not being magically townie in a game is not automatically an indicator that i'm not town? especially considering the last time that same discussion was being held was in a game that you were modding?? *and* considering the fact that you did misread me before??

also i still disagree keiji was scummy

Which I've felt before but the main blocker is, how good do I think Datisi is at mafia or not.

hm?

[Datisi]

actually change of plans

VOTE: implo

i don't like 737

[Datisi]

I mean, if I knew my exact thought process behind this thought I would've explained it lol.

i feel like every once in a while paranoia starts creeping up on me about scipio

and then he goes ahead and drops a line like this and i'm like !!!
i feel like i felt this so many times as town
how does one not townread him for it

Can you share a post that makes paranoia about scipio creep up on you?

i don't remember, i think it was more of a general feeling than any specific posts

scrolling through his iso again, 665 was a weird/easy callout, and his posts often don't feel like they're actually doing anything (e.g. there's a wolf in that group post, or asking you to explain your read on me)

but the way he admitted he doesn't actually know his own thought process is still net town i think

maybe i should check his meta to see if he's able to do that / does that as scum
but i don't feel like it right now

[Datisi]

the vote is from both of us, incidentally

-QB

extremely looking forward to this.

[Datisi]

sure am.

[Datisi]

dats i feel like i don't have such a good read on u and i kinda want to sort u

ok
what is it that you want / need from me here
and also why do you think naked voting is like, gonna help you here

(i am also specifically still interested in mena's reasons for that vote)

[Datisi]

how sure are you actually that i have a red role pm in this game, isis? and also, are you willing to sheep me on ico? (if so, why?)

[Datisi]

Link me to a game where datisi had this much convinction/appeared to believe the things he's saying as scum

i'm not sure if this is that good of a reason to townread me, i've successfully faked tunnels and stuff like that before.

though obviously there's still a difference between scum and town games, so shrug.

[Datisi]

dats i feel like i don't have such a good read on u and i kinda want to sort u

ok
what is it that you want / need from me here
and also why do you think naked voting is like, gonna help you here

(i am also specifically still interested in mena's reasons for that vote)

i don't know!!!! i feel like having some sort of dialogue with you would help, and was kinda hoping that by voting you you'd go: 'omg skitter why are you voting me' and then we could have a nice convo about idk something that would give me more to sort you with than i currently have

i feel like a lot of what you're doing is just kinda NAI? Or at least i don't see the obvtowniness that everyone is citing and like i feel like a lot of what you're doing can be said/posted by scum-you?

do you think you ought to be townread here as much as you have been?

i'm also not really sure i follow your 'evil vibes from isis wagon' -> aaron vote -> isis vote

or why you were scumreading aaron in the first place

~ skitter

ok ok ok fair enough
after you voted me i had like, a Vision that this is scum!you trying to make me react similarly to how i did in 1992
but that's too tinfoily right now

i don't think i have good self-meta to offer here
i don't think i've hit the Datisi Obvtown Levels™ yet
i don't think i've broken my scumrange so far (at least not the recent one) but also idk how scum!me would be playing here bc idk who'd my partners be or whatever so can't quite tell

yes and no. like this isn't the peak of my towngame, but a lot of people here don't have that much (or any) meta on me and don't know that. based on that, this ~collective read on me~ is kinda what i'd expect.

ok. evil vibes because i didn't think at the time isis was acting like experienced scum that's facing pressure (wasn't pushing anyone else, was kinda passively still calling people [possible targets] town). so i'm looking around her wagon, and i disliked aaron's vote on her the most, it seemed like he's voting there without much thought or conviction, after some weird shading-but-not-really.

i thought he might be scum bc of posts that i linked before (e.g. 444, 446, 459) which seemed like pretending to be helpful but not actually Doing Anything. (i guess what the kids call iioa.) also i got pinged by aaron early game too for something but i don't really remember what anymore, can go back to check if it's important

like idk if i can explain it better, i explained it earlier and you said you didn't like it

(though i do think his recent posting is Better)

isis vote bc the reasons because of which i thought her wagon was bad (i.e. her not acting how i'd expect pressured scum to act) were not there anymore, she switched to voting aaron for ??? reasons, then her scumread on me which looked plain bad faith to me - like nitpicking that one post bc i asked multiple things at once, and the "i saw datisi once when was town, he was super townie, he's not here so prob scum" when that was literally false

though if she really forgot about why gun (which for some unknown reason to me i kinda sorta maybe buy at this moment) then asfhfjklfnkl game hard

[Datisi]

how sure are you actually that i have a red role pm in this game, isis? and also, are you willing to sheep me on ico? (if so, why?)

I'm not super sure. I'm willing to sheep your ico read for this dayphase or longer if you're serious about it.

I've been trying to expand the extent to which I treat players I see as decently competent as though they are experts, recently, for reasons. It's kind of experimental.

i'm serious about it yeah
nothing ico has done is making me go ?!?! which i'm taking to be a good sign

also omg isis thinks i'm decently competent?

[Datisi]

lol i was wondering how long that was gonna go on for

[Datisi]

@datisi Are you still SRing ben

i guess??? like i don't think anything in his recent posts (or like, any posts for that matter) made me go like "yes... this is town..." and i do think there's still decent enough chance he's scum, but that decent enough chance is not like, decent *enough* for me to start screaming and fighting the uphill battle against consensus to get him flipped today

and like. if ben isn't happening today then sorting him today isn't really a priority, so i'd rather kinda let that sit till day 2 bc i know i could be confbiased here, and i assume day2!datisi will be like, fresher and smarter (or possibly dead but then i extra don't have to sort him so)

[Datisi]

do you think i/my slot ought to be townreading you yet? cuz like i feel like that's been bandied about quite a bit thus far and i'm just not quite seeing it yet

and ig you're kinda the progenitor of htis whole 'aaron is scum for doing iioa' thing and i'm not really sure i see that read? like ig if you're looking to vote him you can characterize his posts as such but like i'm not really sure that's what's behind his votes

ty for explaining the isis -> aaron thing tho, i appreciate it, and it helped me see wht you were thinking around then
but ig i kinda disliked the timing of your isis vote - it felt a bit like you decided it was time to help the wagon along, if that makes sense, once it kinda stalled out. like it was a weird time to hop on just then. and like i see your explanation and i can see it being plausible, but at the very same time it just doesn't feel 100% real to me? i'm not sure how much that makes sense but i'm like trying to articulate what i'm feeling/vibing rn and i'm not sure how good of a job i'm doing

i have no clue about you because i don't know how skitter machine works
i can understand mena not yet explicitly townreading me here but i also don't think he should be voting me which is partly why i'm interested for him to get on the phone here (is that the expression? you know what i mean)

i mean like, that's partly why i voted him. if you don't agree with that read/conclusion, fine, but i'm not sure i get what you're trying to ask me here? like the way the second sentence is formed makes me think that you're asking *me* for explanation of other people's votes on him?

i think i get why you think the timing was weird
like as soon as i saw those posts from isis on me, i wanted to vote her, but she was on 5 votes, and i cannot just put someone to 6 votes in a n_m game, but i also didn't wanna give intent yet because i wanted to see her response to me first
so after aaron unvoted, i could then vote her without putting her in lolhammer range
if that's what you meant by my timing being off, then yeah i get it

[Datisi]

did that really take me 15 minutes to type up oh my god i should not be awake right now

[Datisi]

My whole point was that I can see why town isis thinks this is the case based on her experience playing with you

and my whole point was that the experience that she was citing was not actually the full extent of it and whether the knowledge that it actually wasn't the full extent changed your outlook

but as this is a point i have kinda given up on myself i don't know if there's much point dragging this line of discussion further

[Datisi]

for the second sentence: i'm not asking u for an explanation per se so much as i'm acknowledging a trend that i don't really agree with that you seem to have started more and i'm not sure why that trend is, like, a thing really
[...]
i feel like i have sufficiently sorted you, and would like to proclaim that i think u are somewhat townie

the actual funny thing here is that i myself don't really agree with it anymore

can i question what lead you to that conclusion

[Datisi]

isis, your soul can rest easy for now

the sound of the birds singing outside is telling me you made an honest mistake

[Datisi]

Also, to preempt what I think is a likely question: I’m not sure how I feel about your engagement with skitt so far.

i'm surprised you didn't preempt a different likely question: why?

Towntisi? Hello? Is this you?

hello? townconeum?? they're tryna fuckin' kill me, help

also fuck this game
VOTE: ben

@hYdra, i'm interested in seeing what you're thinking wrt ben

[Datisi]

not sure what "the push is kinda light" means here but not sure it matters too much

pedit: infinity's sheep vote onto implo or implo's sheep vote onto ben?

and please don't

[Datisi]

yeah i get what you mean, nicely put into words

scipio's 665 seemed a bit oddly out of place to me on first read actually, but shrug

pedit: lol @isis ico is town

[Datisi]

do you have any updated thoughts on burners of bridges

[Datisi]

pedit: lol @isis ico is town

*the head trying to make you think it's Ico is town would be a better statement, and it's true

this is a secret hydra after all

-seCret

DID YOU ACTUALLY JUST

LMAO

[Datisi]

please tell me that was on purpose

[Datisi]

seCret tryna make us think they're ico so hard they hacked his account goddamn

[Datisi]

do you have any updated thoughts on burners of bridges

@seCrEt

I mean, if I knew my exact thought process behind this thought I would've explained it lol.

i feel like every once in a while paranoia starts creeping up on me about scipio

and then he goes ahead and drops a line like this and i'm like !!!
i feel like i felt this so many times as town
how does one not townread him for it

What other lines have I dropped that are similar to this lol?

my 721 wasn't implying that you posted more lines like that.

Which fits a theory that maybe Datisi and Iconeum are just scum together

one day
sadly not today but
one day

I'm kind of finding that I've forgotten how to play almost?

relatable tbh

imagine knowing how to play in the first place

wow this post sure is Game Advancing Content so far

that transition seems super weird this game and i want datisi to change his mind

what transition are you talking about here?

@QB, is there a reason why you seem allergic to talking to me this game?

[Datisi]

you said you were ~not sure how you felt about my convo with skitt~, and when i asked why, you just ignored me?

[Datisi]

Also, to preempt what I think is a likely question: I’m not sure how I feel about your engagement with skitt so far.

i'm surprised you didn't preempt a different likely question: why?

you don't even read my posts, i'm heartbroken.

[Datisi]

i was under the impression that "not sure how i feel about it" there implied that you actively disliked it but eh

in any case, do you see why i find it weird that you're saying how you wish there were more interactions between me and you/your slot but you're like... not really trying to interact with me at all?

[Datisi]

So the thing of trying to get you to engage with our slot more via vote seemed like a good idea?

i thought you were more enthusiastic about getting me to engage w you, but upon looking skimming through your iso for 1.5 minutes, this is the only thing i was able to find from you specifically, so eh

did you accidentally write that "never" in 981?

am i still just a confused null to you? is there anything that i can do to help you sort me?

[Datisi]

infinity, do you townread ben?

[Datisi]

also, tbh, sorting you can be kind of a headache so I was hoping you would just ~be town~ and then I could engage with you after I was already happy with the read

did you just call me a headache

i get not trying to force it, but i'm annoyed now bc my probably the best method of sorting you is basically inapplicable right now.

[Datisi]

i was gonna call extreme bullshit on that tracker claim bc i remembered that ben said something very vt-like earlier on in the game, but upon actually looking back, it's not as slam-dunk as i thought

still don't wanna remove my vote yet. i'd at least like for ben to catch up or something before anything else.

[Datisi]

so in the event that ben is actually scum, he's in a high "T" scumteam,

therefore we wouldn't lose at 5p LyLo

, and if he's still alive at that point, the evidence will become pretty fucking damning

what does the bolded mean?

also, i dunno how much i wanna play this game assuming scum is always making "optimal" moves. like, last time i played this setup, scum claimed vengeful.

[Datisi]

hi shirou!!

@skitt, implo: is there anything you actually actively scumread about sechyd?

also i don't remember if i said this or not but implo feels like a viable ben partner

interesting, why?

@QB, is there a reason why you seem allergic to talking to me this game?

this line alone is extremely town!indicative for datisi

hm?

room temperature take: ico going after shirou wasn't scummy and it's lowkey what i'd expect of him regardless of alignment

@shirou, i know you're not a fan of putting slots in a list, but i still gotta ask, why am i so low? like the only thing you said about me so far is that i'm in the "too many townreads", which... eeeh.

[Datisi]

that experience was pretty short anyway. sorry for getting you n1'ed. :3

The illusion that you're "so low" is merely because of how in a read list you need to have top/bottom tiers that are essentially artificial confidence and don't speak much about how you actually feel towards these slots.

this isn't something that i quite understand. if you don't feel like i'm supposed to be low, then don't put me low? though this seems like a pretty counterproductive discussion about playstyles...

ok, can you talk about your vision of the gamestate then? because i'm not sure i get what about ~the gamestate~ is pointing in that direction for you.

If I had to point something to you ISO that did make me raise the eyebrow, it would be your town read on Hydra/Ico.

i don't think this is something i'll be able to explain properly, though if you'd want i could go back to read through their iso to see what gave me the good pings. it's just... a strong gut feeling that ico flips town here, and i'm ready to argue with anyone who tries to get them flipped today.

[Datisi]

I also feel that you/ico are asking lots of questions but there's not a lot of, I don't know, substance to those questions?

I just showed why Ico's #809 is a fluff question when it's already in Ben's ISO. I think your questions are better than Ico's for what it's worth, but I guess I would be more surprised on Aaron/You/Implosion being all town rather than Ico flipping town?

i'm also assuming i'm the "you" here

and that's just how i play. i look for inspiration, sometimes it hits me, sometimes it doesn't, i've gotten that complaint a few times.

and no, it still doesn't, because i still don't get what you see about the me/implo/aaron group, other than the townreads thing.

pedit: hm, okay, i see better now where you're coming from, thanks.

[Datisi]

sorry if i helped make you feel that way, shirou. i don't think your walls are a waste, i don't wanna make you feel like you need to simplify your thoughts for us, i just don't really have experience trying to solve the game At Once and i'm often not sure what to make of such solving.

This has an added benefit of publishing ben's townclears for his potential n2-3 nk death (scum have minimal means to generate nonlethal visits in this setup) without endangering roles that he viewed that might be more powerful than him.

how does this publish ben's townclears in case he dies? tracker can't clear anyone (except in like edge cases, i think one of them happened last run), and we wouldn't even know who he really targeted if he gets killed before he tells us? or am i missing a lot of things here

also a Read Triangle wouldn't help shirou here, it isn't designed for gamestate reads ;_;

@seCrEt, the middle part of 1181

ben is probably scum who panic claimed a power role, thought it alone would be enough to save him for the day, and now he doesn't know what to post because he didn't expect it wouldn't be enough

[Datisi]

alright, fine. i was thinking more along the lines of "surely scum!me is competent enough to fake *that*", but it makes sense.

[Datisi]

oof.

hi s_s.

[Datisi]

but peta, i said hi to you in the scum pt!!

[Datisi]

Hydra/Datisi/Peta are more likely town than not

what prompted me being included here?

[Datisi]

i don't think anything s_s posted so far has like, majorly shifted my opinion of that slot. s_s, how much of the game have you read by now? specifically, any opinion on the bridgeburners?

[Datisi]

i don't feel a desire to vote the bridgeburners at this moment, but i'd like to hear someone try to sell me on it.

[Datisi]

sure, you got some?

[Datisi]

i don't feel a desire to vote the bridgeburners at this moment, but i'd like to hear someone try to sell me on it.

Y would u like someone to try and sell u on us?

-QB

because i'm seeing votes floating on you and i don't get them and i'd like to know why people are doing the things they're doing?

[Datisi]

i believe isis is still holding her vote on you?

[Datisi]

also like i hate being nitpicky but i didn't say i'd like someone to sell me on bb, i said i'd like someone to *try* to sell me on bb?

[Datisi]

I am inclined to say I would also lim peta today

-QB

this still because of scipio's early game or?

[Datisi]

also fuck this game didn't go well. I tried not to be the N1 kill but that failed pretty horribly in retrospect. should have just tried to play my regular towngame.

^ this bit is something I noted before but never mentioned... given people's impressions of how ben played this game, does this sound plausible as an explanation for why he was scummy? It doesn't seem like anyone really discussed it, which is surprising.

in my (granted, limited) experience w ben, he does tend to obvtown/eat nightkills early. i think the explanation is perfectly possible, if he was trying to play lowkey to not get sniped. my problem is that his play... didn't improve after claiming, rather it became even worse.

[Datisi]

Datisi, take on SS vote?

hate to copy mena, but "shrug".

it doesn't make me change my mind, i don't think. i don't think the vote itself is especially townie? i wanna give town points for not being overly survivalistic with it, but i feel like that's level zero thinking with too many holes

jesus the pedits

[Datisi]

the fact that he seems radically different from play I've seen from him elsewhere + experienced with him

where did you see peta play previously?

[Datisi]

his play... didn't improve after claiming, rather it became even worse.

He only made one post after claiming :X

well, yeah. he went from "posting Something" to "posting Nothing, then repping out when the wagon didn't disappear on its own".

like the way i read that post was "sorry i was playing like this, i didn't want to get sniped", which okay fair, but i felt there was also an unsaid "i'll start Actually Playing now" which is why i wanted to wait and see what ben does

[Datisi]

when I softtownread somebody who is claimed VT, I lulhammer them, then Datisi votes me and gets mad when I flip town

violent flashbacks

[Datisi]

s_s do you have feels on the fire bridge at this moment in time

[Datisi]

i'm curious to see what you are calling "worse" there

he didn't even play after claiming

this day has been going on way too long

anyway hello i skimmed what i missed
still prefer s_s but i guess not so much to try to push it against consensus

my last memory of implo and aaron is that i preferred an implo vote but
peta, you ever give the sparknotes on implo!town?

[Datisi]

do we now have to wait for aaron to get replaced too :upside_down_emoji:

s_s what do you need me for? ico's impostor is still giving me townie vibes and i have zero interest in thinking deeper about it today

[Datisi]

oh joy 10 new pages

hi pooky!!

Also i wanted to say that i disliked ico's flury of posts from last night
(Technically the head doing an inpression of ico .... i'm using the above as shorthand ^)
Dats i think i saw u mention u thought it was townie, can you say why?

you expect too much of me

ok skimming it again, i'm just feeling... a sense of genuineness i didn't feel last game. like idek how to describe it anymore. the annoyance over his scumread and the fact he never got the chance to actually engage with ben just ring true. and the threat of self-voting after supposedly being called out as faking is also p town!indicative, i'm p sure scum!ico just blindly continues to tunnel that

what do you dislike about them? also has mena weighed in on this read?

...
that insane part in the corner of my brain is telling me that sechyd/pooky is s/s heaven help me
...

ok i don't understand why either implo or pooky are calling sechyd scum (other than "ico's reaction to my scumread is scummy" but i disagree with that so)

[Datisi]

i think secret hydra is basically towncleared off that flip given their interaction with shirou

Meh I don't really agree with this, I'm thinking sechyd might need to die anyway, but I don't have much more than gut + ico vs. pooky looking pretty bad for them

VOTE: infinity

[Datisi]

i thought ico was being blatantly town yesterday anyway but there is no way in hell ico/shirou is s/s. there's absolutely no fucking way. and ignoring that in favour of ??? pooky's tunnel upon rep in is ???

i didn't even think that ico was looking bad in that interaction, but like what about pooky v ico is so bad that it offsets ico v shirou?

[Datisi]

ctrl+f "shirou" in sechyd's iso and like... nah. ico doesn't attack partners like that, especially just as they rep in and with no daytalk.

i admit that my townread on ico *might* be wrong because possible/probable sk in game but crossing that bridge when we get there. he ain't mafia.

tl;dr on that BB vote?

[Datisi]

Spoiler: these are the ickiest posts to me

AFF's 84 was good

notsci limiting his posting is prob town motivated

infinity is giving out too many TRs too easily and should be more paranoid. also is ignoring my slot which is ?

Hmm, did you actually roll scum this game isis?

Hmm, did you actually roll scum this game isis?

Ehh, maybe not, I’m guessing you probably (?) wouldn’t try to shade our slot over something as easily disprovable as “scum!skitt would be more likely to announce her VLA immediately”

I’ll see what she thinks tho

intro thought: if skitter and mena are scum they finally get to play scum together.

<3

~
assorted thoughts as i read through:

-> p1 dats, scipio, penguin is a bit townie
-> 57 i think is townie for infinity here
-> maybe also gypyx, amybe also aaron
-> i feel like i should have thoughts on implo's 105 and 109, but i do not
-> mena is hilarious
-> ben's 162 feels townie to me, and i just have good vibes all around on him

skitter didn't tell the mod right away about her V/LA in Mini 2113 as town, but did so in Newbie 1951 as scum and did so in Silent Star 3 as scum. I'm sure further citations will dilute this pattern but even with a weak pattern, it feels significant when this is a game where she's in a hydra and she knows it matters less. It's also somewhat less town-hydra-y to opt for shouting that out to the mod right away versus consulting with Menalque to ascertain how necessary it is or isn't, since as town it's a shared responsibility to solve the game and as scum the posting pattern is more of a visible lifestyle or that's a bad metaphor I was trying to think of a better one.

isis
this is not a good take

~

ok i'm caught up ama
i have many many many townreads

isis is my only scumread
idk where we're voting but

VOTE: isis

sigh
ok in an effort to make the thread less ego-centric i shall magnanimously move on but reserve the right to continue to sr isis

on an unrelated note: penguin i think you're town here!

~ skitter

@notsci:

so, uh, mena told me after he made that post that there wasn't, like, actually a lie read, he just said to see if anybody would react to it in an interesting way
(at this point i'm p sure everyone had the chance to see it and react (or not) so i don't think he'd mind me saying this)

~ skitter

dats i feel like i don't have such a good read on u and i kinda want to sort u

i agree with u that implo is being somewhat scummy. except i'm like historically dead-awful at reading him and i think he was scum in nearly every game i played with him and i always townread him so maybe thinking he's scummy means he's town? idk

~

isis i didn't realize you had such a ~thing~ against hydras and i'm going to endeavor to make a distinct effort to minimize the dissonance. wasn't trying to be annoying, and want to try to not be
<3

~ skitter

dats i feel like i don't have such a good read on u and i kinda want to sort u

ok
what is it that you want / need from me here
and also why do you think naked voting is like, gonna help you here

(i am also specifically still interested in mena's reasons for that vote)

i don't know!!!! i feel like having some sort of dialogue with you would help, and was kinda hoping that by voting you you'd go: 'omg skitter why are you voting me' and then we could have a nice convo about idk something that would give me more to sort you with than i currently have

i feel like a lot of what you're doing is just kinda NAI? Or at least i don't see the obvtowniness that everyone is citing and like i feel like a lot of what you're doing can be said/posted by scum-you?

do you think you ought to be townread here as much as you have been?

i'm also not really sure i follow your 'evil vibes from isis wagon' -> aaron vote -> isis vote

or why you were scumreading aaron in the first place

~ skitter

can you explain how/why these posts are icky?

ctrl+f "shirou" in sechyd's iso and like... nah. ico doesn't attack partners like that, especially just as they rep in and with no daytalk.

How much of this is meta? And if it's a decent portion of the read, why are you voting me? I've never played with ico before

a good portion but not all. my problem here is that you seem to have decided that you want to push ico today and are working backwards to justify your "read" on them. "but ico was the first to attack shirou", "scum can probably find good reasons to attack partners" like the problem here is (1) it still sounded so genuine and (2) it doesn't even try to explain WHY would ico have to do that? like neither of him nor shirou were being scumread, and doing random theatre like that that can easily end in one of them getting scumread is risky and unnecessary, *especially* if the scumteam cannot talk to each other and plan it

[Datisi]

Datisi, do you know if your read on SH would preclude them being SK?

considering i don't usually play games with sk's and that i've never seen ico as sk, no. *however*, ico is aware how often his pushes get scumread. i think if ico were sk, you know the one role that has to survive until the end of the game to win, he wouldn't be going head first into pushes he's aware could easily end in disaster.

the *only* way i could see ico being sk here is if he's aware that the push he's about to make is gonna be transparently town *to me* and that i would defend him for it - i have history of successfully getting town!him out of shit he gets into. maybe i'm biased, but i think this is decently unlikely. last time i saw not-town!him, i very quickly got suspicious (and he had to kill me the next night), so that seems like a risky plan. granted, sk vs mafia read differently, but...

[Datisi]

VOTE: sechyd

Actually, no. We want to kill the SK today, it wants to scumside since town is winning. Even if sechyd isn't SK, they're >rand groupscum imo.

this is disgusting

there is 0% chance ico is groupscum here and he's <<<rand sk for the reasons i outlined above

like how the fuck do you see the fight yesterday and go "lol ico >rand scum"???

besides, it isn't even confirmed we have an sk here

like what the fuck

[Datisi]

as another Certified Gut Player(tm), gut is the actual reason they are town, though. and this is so miles out of how scum!ico played last time i saw him (and quite in line to games where he was town!)

like what you quoted in 2463 is textbook town!ico

why would he randomly do that theatre like that? what, people think he's forgettable, and his first reaction is attack a partner that just repped in?? makes no goddamn sense he don't play like that

[Datisi]

that is literally how ico talks??? and it's one of those things i highly doubt scum!ico posts blatantly like that because it begs to get pushed over for it?

like it's absolutely not scum!indicative

[Datisi]

Actually, datisi, I need you to elaborate on your sechyd read. At the end of d1 you still seemed open to the possibility that they could be scum, and now you strongly believe that they're not even SK? And what about the gypyx head, which you had concerns about earlier?

where? the only thing even resembling a scumread of sechyd from me at eod1 that i remember/can find right now is that one line in 2204, and lemme tell you... that is not me "being open to the possibility they could be scum". like, literally in that same post, i say *twice* that i don't think they're scum/understand the scumreads on the slot.

yeah, i believe ico's play around shirou was both town!indicative and non-partner!indicative. i had one of those yesterday, i have both today. i don't think sk!ico plays that they way they did. and frankly, no offense to gypyx, but i don't actually care. unless gypyx starts utterly obvscumming (spoiler alert, he hasn't), i'm not gonna spend time reading that head when i could read a person i have a decent (and not sample-size-1) read record on.

[Datisi]

@datisi Ok, 2204 didn't feel quite as strong as "<<<<rand SK", but makes sense

What changed since this post:

room temperature take: ico going after shirou wasn't scummy and it's lowkey what i'd expect of him regardless of alignment

frankly, i wasn't even thinking about ico's (or anyone's) play on day 1 in terms of whether that slot is a likely sk or not, mostly because

i'm boring and

i usually only play boring games with no sk's, so my idea of scum-hunting is hunting groupscum. if you were to specifically ask me if their play made them more or less likely to be sk, i'd have said less. i just wasn't thinking about it at all, because again, an sk completely slipped my d1 mindset.

well... shirou flipped since that post. there was a left-out "they're not partnered" that i didn't really bother writing out because explicitly making notes of non-s/s things when they happen is for nerds.

if you're about to say "but datisi!! earlier today you said ico's play around shirou was town!indicative and yesterday you only said it was not-scum!indicative!!", shut. i actually have no fucking clue what i was thinking back there and whether that was some ~gamestate read~ that i do not remember anymore or if i was just trying to get people off his ass. i went to check my notes, i didn't write it down. my best guess is that it was something along the lines of "scumconeum isn't afraid to push people, and if he'd seen something scum!him was able to push, he'd have taken it", with later on thinking that "i would have been able to realize if it were a scum shitpush or not because my gut on ico is working well recently, and i didn't get any pings there", but like. idk. if it's important, i might go back to reread.

[Datisi]

also: daaaaaaaaattttttttttttssssssssssss i see you've been around today. do u have thoughts on things?

i am literally in the middle of typing (and refreshing to keep up with the ~new stuff~) hello give me a second

[Datisi]

I'm not convinced you believe I'm scum though.

ok, so the reason you weren't voting me / going after me is ... ? like this seems like such a random line to drop, esp after saying i'm town off of associates and not giving any indication to thinking otherwise?

i'm getting a bad feeling about this wagon from implo's 2567. it's like, there's a few things happening right now, skit v peta, me attacking infinity, and scum!implo decides to... be the only one to go after penguin, be the only one to complain about n_m, go out his way to townread burnthebridges. i dunno. gives me a non-survivalistic vibe that i'd not expect from scum here. (unless he's completely given up ig?)

@skitt, how sure are you that infinity's town here? (reference to 2571) did anything in his recent post spark you to post that?

also reading the skit v peta exchange i'm actually getting the vibe that i don't want to kill either of them? like usually when skitter's in a tvs i'd get a feeling that "we really ought nuke both slots and go from there", but here i'm just Not getting that?

also also here i started typing up how ~the gamestate~ is going against my vacuum read on that bc if they were tvt, surely scum would've jumped onto it by now, and they're mostly getting ignored. but *then* i remember that (1) one scum is dead (which keeps slipping my mind due to them being killed and not yeeted) and (2) there might be only one groupscum left anyway which makes this less strong a point

[Datisi]

smh it took me 10 minutes to finish that post, i should be asleep right now

[Datisi]

sure
i mostly want to knwo if you have thoughts on people who aren't ico, and why all of your posting seems to be about ico

~ skitteR

i'll tell you a secret: my motivation for this game's day one died way before day one ended, and i don't think i properly remember anything that's happened in the last ~30 pages of it. after missing a good part of the game like that, that's usually where i give up on a game and lowkey prodge until i get yeeted. (this doesn't happen often - i believe last time something like this happened was krazy's post-apoc upick a year ago.)

i also hate myself when i do that, and have decided to not let myself completely fall into apathy and at least do ~something~ - like i think ico is town and i believe the shade on him was fishy? aight let's run with that, try to solve from there. just so happens that ico is one of my strongest (if not *the* strongest) reads right now, and i think working from there is more likely to actually make me useful and get results.

[Datisi]

it almost feels like you're viewing the rest of the game through the lens of your ico read; like you're using that to latch onto the game - which is kinda how i approach the game as scum? i find something to talk abt and then just orient my whole game around that. and that's kinda what you're doing with ico and i'm not really sure *why* that's what you're doing with ico

the line where you say: 'like usually when skitter's in a tvs' do you mean when i'm the scum or the town in the tvs?

i mean, you're not wrong, that is exactly what i'm doing. just so happens i'm not scum and i'm not you? like, i think the options for my own position in this game are "start from something that i actually have a firm read on and work from there" or "try to force reads on things i Don't have reads on, get frustrated once the forcing reads obviously doesn't work, give up", and i think the former is obv better

i mean both, actually. off the top of my head, i can remember 3 tvs fights you got into (scum!s_s in jk9++, scum!duck in 960, town!nero cain in that mini normal) where i thought "ok, this is svt, i'm not exactly sure who is who though, we should just murder both of them" and i'm just not getting that here if that makes sense?

[Datisi]

is there anything i can do to help you get back into it?

remind me again, who do you think is scum other than peta? i vaguely remember you calling implo town bc something d1 gamestate town wagons (apologies if i'm butchering, you know what i'm referring to i think), mind giving an update on that?

[Datisi]

also ik mena is busy irl at these days, but he's the head of the hydra i actually have read correctly before, mind asking him for a rundown on my slot once he has time? or preferably getting him here

[Datisi]

i could have sworn that you had a post where you were calling all major day one wagons town bc ~something about gamestate~ but for the life of me i cannot find it and now i'm wondering if i made it up (or if it was posted by someone else)

[Datisi]

skitt, did you ever post that? or is sleep deprivation finally getting to me?

[Datisi]

ok, so the reason you weren't voting me / going after me is ... ? like this seems like such a random line to drop, esp after saying i'm town off of associates and not giving any indication to thinking otherwise?

It's because your SR of me is so removed from your posting that I forgot it even existed. You voted me for my SR on sechyd, but I'm not pushing them anymore, and you didn't even comment on that. Was my unvote a scummy backtrack? Didn't change your read, but the fact that I SRed them in the first place is scummy enough that you're continuing to vote me? It's very strange, especially since no one else agrees with you, and you're not engaging with them or giving them reasons to change their mind. So what is this vote doing?

I don't remember saying anything about you in the shirou ISO

it's sitting there until i find a better place for it. i saw that you weren't pushing them anymore, i don't think it's worth commenting on. also, "you're not engaging with them" is funny considering i went to talk to skitter about it... less than an hour ago? also fun fact: i rarely go against consensus if i'm not *strongly* convinced the consensus is wrong. like, i don't have to have a super strong scumread on you in order to vote you?

and you didn't say anything about shirou. it was about notsci. 2452.

[Datisi]

fair enuf!

i'm still not loving your entrance tho

despite this i was telling mena earlier that i think the stalled cws on aff + implo kinda loosely point to them being tvt - scum have no motivation to switch or force either wagon in particular through, and are fairly content to passively watch either play out

i think this explains the sluggishness of the past few irl days

this is wholly a gamestate read, i still dislike ur slot on play to be clear

~ skitteR

This?

~ skitteR

Ugh

well the word "gamestate" got burned into my brain so i guess that's the post

though reading it now, it seems much less certain of the "t/t read" than i remember it to be

how strong was it in the first place?

[Datisi]

hmm, i was hoping ico's impostor would've been around today to jam w me...

everything in infinity's posting today is really town imo, voting him just because his secret hydra read was goofy is a bad choice

everything? give me an elaboration of like, idk, the thing you found most townie?

Strong enuf (at least coupled with how today us playing out) that i'm not super vibing an implo vote rn

what about today playing out is making you doubt it further?

datisi is not very towny which makes this game way harder

how dare you

ftr i'm also not sure i quite get isis's fascination with bb here

man this post ain't helping

i'm tired

[Datisi]

so i skimmed the game earlier today and i was really hoping someone would post something new that i could maybe interact with bc i'm finding the stuff from last night p difficult to interact with as i don't think any of it changes my stances much

except that ico should come back as soon as he can before i start gamethrowing

but nobody posted anything new

also i don't like this anymore
UNVOTE:

what if i


VOTE: Datisi

u wanna go

Isn't vote canvasing

isis what does this mean

[Datisi]

implo why are you voting isis

@peta well that's too fucking bad because i genuinely thought (and still think) that his read on sechyd was garbage!! like sure maybe i am wrong on it being a scum one but it was bad and you cannot change my mind. also like it's p obvious? if the read feels like it was bullshitted, then it would make him scum bc town generally does not do that. (note that while i still very much think it was garbage, maybe it wasn't bullshitted.)

I agree with this, literally everything gypyx has posted in the last 48 hours has been awful

Dats do u agree with this assessment y/n?

y - that's what the "ico should come back as soon as he can before i start gamethrowing" comment meant in 2768
gamethrowing = voting sechyd (bc ico was town)

Datisi why have you accepted my proxy reading secHyd all game

bc last time i said "hey isis can you read dragon for me" you dayvigged town!ico within like one hour or something and i reckon you'd let me be in charge of that this time around, esp since i'm feeling p confident after 2180

@pp why am i town?

[Datisi]

do you have any updated thoughts on burners of bridges

@seCrEt

not the seCret head, but we chatted and we both have small gutpings on the annahilator of bridges, he didn't say on *what* though

do you have any updated thoughts on burners of bridges

@seCrEt

not the seCret head, but we chatted and we both have small gutpings on the annahilator of bridges, he didn't say on *what* though

yeah and i also said i have no interest in persuing those today…
ok so my deepest darkest thoughts are spilling into the main thread

i'll keep that in mind when talking to my other head

-seCret

did you two ever talk about what seCret's pings were?

[Datisi]

VOTE: bridgeburners

would love to try and get done with trying to see what's bridge tbh

and off to sleep, sorry y'all

- hYdra

why did you only vote at this point if the pings were from d1?

[Datisi]

reskimmed shirou/ico from d1 and i still really don't think that is s/s

[Datisi]

I don't remember vigging Iconeum in what must have been why gun that is interesting

the only completed game that me ico and mena all rolled the same alignment in and you murdered ico practically before he even got to play

[Datisi]

;

this is the name i haven't heard in a while

sssskitttttttttterrrrrrrr
i still don't want to vote iconeum here :///

[Datisi]

what, the above should say "a name" not "the name"? whatever

i'd be lying if i said i'm not getting worried by posts like 2909 though
it's not nearly enough to make me actually vote there but i'm not as 100% as i was

[Datisi]

ftr i still insist on seeing mena's opinion on that slot this gameday if/when possible

sigh
i don't know if scum!ico sees the wagon building on himself, and on implo, with even possible appetites for my yeet, and starts defending us and going from bb that he's currently a vanity on

like what is the play here

actually i just realized something that makes it less likely for ico to be scum here but outing it would not be beneficial

[Datisi]

@peta well that's too fucking bad because i genuinely thought (and still think) that his read on sechyd was garbage!! like sure maybe i am wrong on it being a scum one but it was bad and you cannot change my mind. also like it's p obvious? if the read feels like it was bullshitted, then it would make him scum bc town generally does not do that. (note that while i still very much think it was garbage, maybe it wasn't bullshitted.)

okay?? little weirdly over the top here. my point is even if you viscerally disagreed with the read, an immediate "terrible take die scum" is, like, going 0 to 100 in 2 seconds and that is bothersome behavior because as i explained, having a read you don't like doesn't necessarily mean it comes from scum and i am less inclined to see infinity-scum making that read at all, you just sort of jumped to that conclusion

this is avoiding the point thati'm not sure what you're dong in this game anymore, you haven't been scumhunting, i don't actually know where you stand on anyone, you being disinterested and no longer super town looking like i thought on day 1 is concerning

reskimmed shirou/ico from d1 and i still really don't think that is s/s

the thing is, i would probably still agree with this, and i'm not going to argue seccy d is exactly the sk, but it is not strong enough reason for me to overlook a strong level of individual scumminess from gypyx's posting (and, uh, iconeum has not alleviated that feeling). i think that's aways going to override any associative read for me

let me be over the top if i want to goddammit

ok but here's the thing, peta: it looked f a k e a s f u c k to me. like did it think that i might have been wrong? yeah sure wouldn't be the first nor the last time. but infinity was on zero votes. he wasn't on e-1, or n_m's e-1, he was on zero votes. what does it matter. why would i not vote there. we can sit here and argue, but like you're not gonna convince me that my infinity suspicion was bad because you happen to not see how one gets that read?

lol lemme tell you a secret, i'm also not sure what i'm doing. though i feel like that is decently false, like i'm obv town on ico, i'm trending town on infinity, i said implo's reads kinda don't make sense as scum, i said you/skit is prob t/t, like? read. also like lol what can i tell you. that's what happens when day 1 is 40 pages and 7 days longer than it needed to be, and also everyone left alive in the game has some sorta reasons to be townie.

Daaaaaaaaaats i need help with ico

Ok and?

What did you think he was going to say?

maybe these latest posts were actually scumconeum meta to a t and i'm the only one with the knowledge to know that. you don't know.
(they're not tho)

Datisi, do you have anyone that you're leaning scum on right now or are you still in the sort of apathetic state you described earlier or?

yes

for real, if something were different i'd have posted it in thread. gut machine gets stuck sometimes.

could you remake one of these? i reckon it's quite outdated, considering the penguin placement. and isis is kinda a vanity vote now too, sooo... where you at?

[Datisi]

I just had a thought.

I think I'll keep it to myself for now.

VOTE: Bridgeburners

this is the most interesting thing that happened in the past how-many hours and the only thing i'd like to ask about but i cannot because s_s said he'll keep the thought to himself

aight cheers

[Datisi]

i am not an interesting person.

[Datisi]

hmm?

[Datisi]

good talk

[Datisi]

best bird ;_;

[Datisi]

i was gonna vote implo bc i do not buy whatever they're (bb voters, not implo) trying to sell about the bb vote and am not feeling bad pings from mena's recent posting so idk lol

(though i do wish he answered about ico)

but now implo's on e-2

consider this intent ig?

does it even matter if implo just votes bb and they're also at e-2

maybe it doesn't

nothing matters

[Datisi]

that's why i said it doesn't matter what i do

[Datisi]

Hey datisi, how would you feel about voting schiavetto?

-QB

no opinion.

answer my q about how you're reading ico and i might help you out.

[Datisi]

gypyx’s posting was god awful enough

i mean yes it was but like ico was townie and i was hoping for a reality check from you there

[Datisi]

Are you feeling more open to voting schiavetto now?

-QB

i mean maybe but i'm thinking if i can make you do anything else to buy my vote here

[Datisi]

actually i don't care enough about this game even for that

VOTE: schiavetto

[Datisi]

ok but like i'm talking about ico's posting, not shirou's

like even if you assume daytalk and assume shirou literally told ico to attack him there, i still don't think the posts would've looked organic/townie as they did

unless shirou was feeding him line for line but i don't think he has that kinda skill wrt ico, y'know,,,

[Datisi]

my whole case is more-or-less "last time i saw scum!ico, he looked hella fake, became my top gutscumread within 48 hours (and made me snap out of a wrong tunnel i was in the *entire* game up to that point), and became my top pick for scum after the next flip, and he don't look fake here, *especially* when you consider he attacc scum"

[Datisi]

mena told me to

[Datisi]

i think so

[Datisi]

how is "mena told me to" not a real reason

like idk i don't care about this game and i'm willing to help out someone i think is town as opposed to not doing anything

what do you want from me

[Datisi]

mena, isis is talking about me, why don't you also talk about me

[Datisi]

I feel like ur not gonna like it when I say I think ur town lol

-QB

does this post contain a typo

[Datisi]

don't worry i'm not gonna unvote schiavetto if that's what you're afraid of

and /shrug, makes enough sense and i don't feel you're ~setting up things~ for later from it which i think scum!you would prob be doing there and which i like to think i'd be able to spot

[Datisi]

cherry picking again

cherry picking what? a half of your slot's posting?

[Datisi]

your townread on mena is also bad i think

elaborate?

[Datisi]

I'M STARTING TO GET SCUMMYTISI VIBES SEND HELP

do u wanna go m8

[Datisi]

Datisi is probably town

this was the first time he called someone town on d2

later on he forgot he made this post associates-wise

was this a crumb?

[Datisi]

this is lowkey starting to feel like a meme, but: i still think? ico is town??

like i was actually getting nervous close to eod2 because i was starting to get thoughts of ico being an sk because saying that i liked his posts would be a blatant lie. however, now that it flipped... yeah i still really don't think it's within ico's scumrange to attack his partner there for ~distance points~, but even if you assume shirou feeding him info, i don't see it looking like *that*.

You spectated ducky's PYP. How closely were you watching near the end? Do you remember how Menalque lit into me for even thinking he could possibly be scum?

I was wondering if he'd do that here. He did not.

you confuse "spectating" with "shitposting in the dead thread", but yeah, i was vaguely following when that was happening.

does that tell you anything about his alignment here?

i really want this to be a 2-groupscum game with s_s being the last scum, purely because i think it would be funny to spend the next few

days

weeks screaming at each other only for s_s to become confscum in final 3

@mena, i assume you haven't yet (re)read ico d1 interactions w shirou?

[Datisi]

can you like

do that

before claiming iconeum has a red role pm?

[Datisi]

hmm

[Datisi]

is something the matter, menalque?

[Datisi]

i am reconsidering, yes

because i am not getting Good Vibes from the handwaving of ico's interactions with shirou

[Datisi]

handwaving

Is procrastination really handwaving?

-QB

errr... yes?

[Datisi]

hi ico's impostor
do we have anything to talk about from yesterday?

[Datisi]

you tell me? you were (are) the one who was disliking our posting so shoot

no, i think that was you first? i left you some inquiries shortly before eod2

[Datisi]

ok, checking back, they weren't as interesting as i remember/would've liked

the townread on mena being bad (3273) meant just bad or scummy?

pedit: bottom of pg 131

you are right that i don't scumread you though, felt more like tying loose ends

i have a conversation i feel like i need to have with BB first

[Datisi]

I think shirou interactions are v probably not clearing

did you read them :3

[Datisi]

I think shirou interactions are v probably not clearing

did you read them :3

[Datisi]

you see it's so important my internet decided to post it twice

[Datisi]

I think shirou interactions are v probably not clearing

did you read them :3

No but i don’t need to to say “they’re probably not clearing” I just need to know what I do about shirou

-QB

HMMMMMMMMMMM

[Datisi]

mena, do you disagree with the following:

ico has a certain style/tone difference as scum and as town. *no matter* how strong/strategical his partner is, there is no way the partner could know him so well enough (bc even i don't know him well enough for that) to be able to feed him lines that would come off as towny within his meta.

[Datisi]

but there is still difference between a powerwolfy scumgame and his town game, right?

[Datisi]

i don't think i can give a more concrete answer than ~gut~ and ~vibe~. i don't know how to put it into words. it just feels Different

[Datisi]

u mistake me; I don’t care if u think I’m town because I’m intending to yeet you in short order

lol this is not fucking happening

[Datisi]

though i'm assuming 3413 is kinda sarcastic / mocking on purpose

[Datisi]

i think i'm getting day one autumnal vibes

but the other way around

[Datisi]

i don't think i can give a more concrete answer than ~gut~ and ~vibe~. i don't know how to put it into words. it just feels Different

i kinda didn't finish this post lol

like idk how you usually read the dragon but i'm finding it, for a lack of better term, alarming, that you continuously refuse to look back on that part of the game and keep falling back to "but shirou good scum"

[Datisi]

i think i'm getting day one autumnal vibes

but the other way around

Oh and u were doing so well earlier too

-QB

hm?

pedit: ico have you not read the past page or so and what i'm arguing?

[Datisi]

do you really think
scum!you
could get town!me
to support the misyeet on town!ico?

[Datisi]

i think i'm getting day one autumnal vibes

but the other way around

Oh and u were doing so well earlier too

-QB

hm?

pedit: ico have you not read the past page or so and what i'm arguing?

Like EoD yesterday

With ur reads n stuff

no, no, i wanna for real hear what you're implying here

[Datisi]

do you really think
scum!you
could get town!me
to support the misyeet on town!ico?

Yes

you're doing a very poor job

[Datisi]

pedit: ico have you not read the past page or so and what i'm arguing?

ur arguing about *their* read on us

i wanna know *your* read on them now

-seCret

i thought it was p clear from ~contextual clues~ that they're sinking but here

VOTE: bb

does this help

[Datisi]

do you really think
scum!you
could get town!me
to support the misyeet on town!ico?

Yes

you're doing a very poor job

I’m not

-QB

i don't see myself voting ico, so

no, no, i wanna for real hear what you're implying here

I mean that yesterday there was some good to ur reads because you correctly had our slot as town

And now you don’t, because you think we’re scum

-QB

oh, alright. i had a hunch you were calling out the scumteam. maybe i was wrong.

threatening me is a very nice play, and it's gonna yield you amazing result, trust me

i'll start making a larger post then to completely destroy your statement here

lol icon have you ever 1v1’d me and won? Like even just me and not me and skitter?

-QB

the point of this post is...?

[Datisi]

if scum takes me to lylo with sechyd it makes the whole thing rly fkin easy :3

[Datisi]

yes

[Datisi]

ico is still very town and holy shit i wish i knew which words to use to convince the rest of you otherwise. like, his lasts few posts. he's still trying to sort bb. to get them to answer questions and explain their thought process. there's genuineness in that. scumconuem sees that bb is currently his best shot of staying alive and rips into them.