Open 811 - Lovers and Losers (New Game+) [Game Over]

[RationalMadman]

Furthermore, instead of voting Vex, VFP now later decided that Vex being scum means Ana and me must be yet VFP was happy to vote Kerset based on no reasoning at all until that point of mind-changing, in that case. Why was VFP blindly voting Kerset? Just because Tbone states that he scumread Kerset? That's all?

Yeah, why would town-confirmed lovers players trust one another? Must be scum, there's no other logical explanation. You got us.

Yes, why at all? You or your lover's ability to read (if you are town) is 0% relevant to your own ability to read. You should never let your lover's incompetence hold you back as an individual. If Ana reads incorrectly, I will fight her. If I disagree with Ana here or Bingle last game, I am 0% cowering to them. Will I enjoy us voting together? Yes, of course. Only if I agree to their read's reasoning, not as an instinctive reaction.

Well lucky for me, I trust VFP way more than I trust you and VFP probably feels the same way.

You had no problem with Kerset telling VFP to vote Bambi and VFP complying though. I don't remember you getting upset about that and calling Kerset scum.

I think RM is just upset because now VFP is voting for his pair, and he's creating revisionist history in order to justify his position and defend himself. No one else batted an eye over this sequence, not even Kerset/Bingle. I feel like that A) I was very wrong but also B) gives us a little insight into their alignments. Bingle/Kerset to my knoweldge, and maybe I missed it, haven't even questioned that lovers would be on the same page. Ya'll are making me almost town case them now...but I've always given Bingle credit for defending Kerset...and watching RM get upset that VFP and I will just trust each other is just illuminating. We haven't seen that out of Kerset/Bingle at all. Even in all my discussions with Bingle, and I hope I'm not putting words in their mouth, I never got the impression that they ever had a problem with Klick/myself being together.

I think you don't understand the word 'trust'. I don't trust Ana is Town I KNOW she is Town not gamble or trust required. 'Trust' as you use oteans blindly assuming Ana's reads are all correct by default kust because I know she's Town. That's absurd to the highest degree.

[RationalMadman]

This time he is scum but going to get killed because his partner is obtuse.

I am not scum this time and with regards to 'obtuse' that is down to interpretation.

[RationalMadman]

It doesn't really matter at this point, I am very sure it's VFP and Tbone so just get this over with and then vote them.

[RationalMadman]

If 8 of us say you are obtuse and only the victim disagrees...

You are obtuse.

@Mod I am genuinely getting sick of this abuse.

Not everyone in the game says I am obtuse and if all of you do, you are still only 8 people.

[RationalMadman]

You had no problem with Kerset telling VFP to vote Bambi and VFP complying though. I don't remember you getting upset about that and calling Kerset scum

Kerset isn't VFP's partner and I still read Bambi as your Goon so really I didn't care, you're correct. I wanted to see if VFP would unvote Bambi the first chance they got and they did.

Hypocrisy to get what you want instead of sincerity. Thank you for being upfront.

Why the fuck would I be sincere when the way someone acts without my interruption will reveal more to me about their alignment?

[RationalMadman]

"Hello VFP, I noticed you only voted Bambi because of Kerset, now please don't unvote Bambi so I can Townread you for doing that."

Is that the sincerity you want? That would be idiotic. It also was a small factor into why I scumread VFP, you are the primary reason I originally scumread VFP as your partner. Since I began to lean-scum on VFP, VFP than deteriorated clinging at anything to scumread what is now suddenly a clear-cut S_S, RM and Ana team in VFP's delusional mind.

This is absolutely hilarious and I have even quoted myself to prove VFP wrong about what I said or didn't say and when precisely I called VFP a scumread of mine.

[RationalMadman]

VFP unvoting Bambi was one of many factors, VFP could have randomly voted Bambi as Town to see reactions too. There'd be no reason to scumread it immediately until seeing what VFP did with the vote's reactions or justified the vote with.

[RationalMadman]

I asked why you didn't read ot to see your response, not to accuse you of being scum purely due to that. Your reaction is terrible.

Well this is a plain lie.
Look at the below discussion

before

you asked why I didn't read.

VFP is an observant player based on what I think of them in a previous game. There is no way Scum VFP didn't read Tbone and Klick describing the Lover PT already, false or not.

Tbone and VFP are scum pair I am quite sure now.

Simply put until now, I had zero read on Klick overall. Now I am getting a scumread on VFP.

I wasn't ignorant of Scum having daytalk. I never said I didn't know or think that. However, the reply VFP gave was attainable with just reading what Klick and Tbone wrote in thus public thread and insinuating that VFP read it without knowing much about it. It doesn't require VFP to use daytalk and ask Tbone for help to know what to say because nothing about the reply implied that happened, if it had been more detailed that may imply it especially with a larger timegap. I believe VFP based the reply on what Klick and Tbone said earlier and still scumread VFP and Tbone.

Nightless actually changes things here.
A lim on the scum lovers day 1 is an automatic win.

I'm going to think on it first then see where I go.

It isn't, there is another mechanical way for scum to win (being the only vanilla left). Why didn't you read the OP fully?

You had me as scum before hand. So again, you are lying here to fit your own narrative.

Do you realise you just proved your theory wrong? You said I scumread you based on that, now you are forced to admit I didn't. This as stupid as it gets.

[RationalMadman]

You didn't play this game though, only Klick played it truly less than you and Klick replaced out.

That said, I don't understand the scumread on you Llama has and the one VFP has on me is based on absolute lies which is fine because VFP and Tbone are going next.

VFP literally quoted me and just admitted how they screwed up big time accusing me of basing my scumread on the question I asked about why they didn't read the alternate win-con. Their quotes unequivocally prove I scumread them before it and regardless of it and that the question was asked in neutrality, to pressure and judge from the answer.

VFP is also lying that I invented a meta. I noticed VFP is very observant as Town, that is 100% accurate meta, it doesn't mean VFP is the polar opposite as scum but perhaps that VFP is less so as Scum if I add it together with my overall scum vibe/read from VFP that I had been developing through from the Bambi vote-unvote behaviour to the willingness to vote Kerset blindly and suddenly scumread S_S to justify an elimination of you and I... VFP's reasoning is not just all over the place it's absolute unequivocal bullshit.

[RationalMadman]

Bambi's only viable scum partners are VFP/me and we're town so she's confirmed to me. I know that doesn't mean much to most people but I do want to put that thought out there.

Wrong. She can be scum with any pair at all if she's distancing.

[RationalMadman]

Tbone is stating utter lies, as is VFP, about how to spot partners. You don't instantly read conflict as non-partner. There is no logic behind hard-reading anything as impossible to be a bus. That's how you start toread, not how you truly conclude. Bambi could be distancing from Ana and me hypothetically, as could Llama in the situation that just hapoenedt here if Ana and me were scum, yet VFP and Tbone state hard reads in vanillas assuming that as scum Ana and myself would ask our Goon to buddy us all day. This isn't a town mindset at all, the read is shallow and forced.

[RationalMadman]

Stop pussy footing this vote, vote Ana and myself, we flip Town, then vote Tbone and VFP, I am not playing around here.

[RationalMadman]

Please stop being dishonest Tbone.

Thank you.

[RationalMadman]

Llama backing away from Ana and myself seems like scum scared to be on Town bw after realising third vanilla and other pair aren't joining in.

I am less sure of Bambi vs Llama which os the scum but I townread S_S, so unless one of the others is viable I'm still voting Tbone.

[RationalMadman]

Llama suddenly unvoted Ana for absolutely no reason if he scumreads her and I.

[RationalMadman]

Vex tried to kill Llama first cuz they couldn't read him as well as me due to us having similar personalities...

Well there seems to be a step missing here. If Vex voted Llama because Vex couldn't read Llama but they can read you, then presumably Vex voted Llama because they can read you and got a townread on you. Or else what you said is a mischaracterization, because even if they had a blatantly scum-motivated reason, they wouldn't have admitted as much in the thread.

Can you point to where Vex explained this?

See this gets to the core point of why I have VV as scum.

They apparently after a game that got called after 48 hours and 12 pages were so scared of me, that they would rather vote me over Bambi. However they state that they think they Bambi is a player that they can read. Then *never* got a read on Bambi, or did anything to make that read on Bambi happen. That was the crux of VV being scum. A cop out of "im afraid of a player" who there was very limited time to ever get a read on, coupled with apparently a confidence to read another player on, which from their standpoint as town would reveal my alignment, and no follow through.

There is a difference between town being lazy and scum trying to stall. I dont doubt that VV actually lost time and needed to be replaced, but how someone says "I cant read X, but can read Y" when Y to them is opposite of X and never makes an attempt to read X is town. Thats why I think Vex was scum. I get trying to form a read of one player off of another. I dont get the feeling that its your only option (especially as again they had about 48 hours of D1 scum me experience) and then never following through on it.

I guess also to an extent there are more than just me scum reading VV on not feeling the same, but I dont trust my meta fully as again very small sample and its hard to compare players when you were playing as scum but now as town as you pay attention to a lot of different things.

@RM what does this do to your “LF unvoted thing?”

I read it before saying what I said. It sounds like justifying a strange angle to justify avoiding a clash which Llama would be scared and unsure about his pair surviving and he, himself, of he's the Goon (as he knows Ana and me flip Town and neither pair of you and Kerset or Tbone and VFP had a sure path to victory after that if Llama was your Goon). S_S refusing to hammer us and you and Kerset both doing so made Llama unsure he could win in the vanillas if his pair lost the showdown next day, realising this Llama comes up with superficial reasoning to vote Vex's replacement instead.

Of course, this all assume Scum-Llama. I am aware he could be Town here but the sudde doubt and off-angle vote (voting Vanillas instead) seems like "damn, the others aren't hammering RM what should I do".

Note that you and Kerset, as scum with Llama, would equally irk Llama (hoping S_S hammerednor you guys could justify it) as if Tbone and VFP were.

However, I still hard-read Tbone and VFP as the scum pair for reasons entirely unrelated to that unvote. The fact that VFP and Tbone box themselves in with Bambi makes me begin to second-guess Bambi as being scum, however I read Vex's slot and previous behaviour and S_S's hesitation to vote us and theory that you and Kerset are playing the middle as a hard Tiwnread on Vex/S_S.

I also render it virtually implausible/impossible that the team is S_S with you two (anti bus theory included from Vex) since in this scenario right now there's no logic in how you're pushing the S_S bandwagon instead of justifying a hammer on me or continuing to push on Tbone.

S_S would equally have probably put more effort into either justifying a hammer on me (from vefore not just in that moment) or bussed Tbone if he was playing hard for the win as scum with Tbone and VFP.

I don't see S_S as scum with either pair. It's not at all likely or viable for me.

[RationalMadman]

This makes somewhere between zero and no sense, unless you are saying that as town I would just be death tunneling you? You do realize your slot is all but dead if we do go back to lover pairs right?

So go back, do it, then vote Tbone and VFP. Then Vote Bambi and then vote yourself. That is what I want to happen. I've made that very clear.

[RationalMadman]

RM can you please stop being baited by T-Bone.

He is trying to make you look bad so he can push us out of the game and claim it's because of your personality after we flip.

Just stop talking to him.

That is good, I want it to be more and more obvious how scummy he is.

[RationalMadman]

This makes somewhere between zero and no sense, unless you are saying that as town I would just be death tunneling you? You do realize your slot is all but dead if we do go back to lover pairs right?

So go back, do it, then vote Tbone and VFP. Then Vote Bambi and then vote yourself. That is what I want to happen. I've made that very clear.

Then vote yourself here. Its apparently what you want to happen and you are "very clear" about that.

You are also kind of being an idiot to think that if I was scum and my partners were getting votes I wouldnt bus. Mod still hasnt released topics which im getting increasingly frustrated about, but I explicitly noted to partners last game that if it looked like best way to win the game was a bus, I was going to do so. Either one of them can confirm it publicly. If it was the best way to win, I would take it... and if you are town here your thought is... I dont bus and instead try and make a new wagon that if it doesnt go through *does* probably come back to hurt me? Really? If you are town you have a conclusion you want, and are trying to force anything you can to match it and its blindinly apparent. You are trying to work backwards because you cant actually come to that conclusion connecting the dots forward. But thats why I think you are scum, you dont need to solve because you know the answer.

Voting myself is not playing to win, even though we have miselimination. In no shaoeor form doI want to be voted over Tbone, that is objectively antitown to want as it is indeed possible both that I am incorrect and that Town disagree with me the following day and vote Bingle and Kerset instead.

I am fully accepting of being miseliminated but in no shape or form do I want it. I would expect to be penalised if I self here. I never ever would have selfed in the game before either so don't even try and suggest it. I only ever would self in either an autowin scenario with a CC and free miselim (impossible in this setup) or if I am scum and beli

[RationalMadman]

Or if I am scum and believe I win anyway* I tapped submit too soon was on phone that lagged.

[RationalMadman]

Also, it is very important in this setup to force voters not to be yourself or your lover if you're a pair. Voting patterns will reveal a lot post-flip

[RationalMadman]

@Anastasia why Llama over Bambi? I want Bambi before anything else because of Llama is Town here I am certain S_S goes next and that is absolutely suboptimal for what I read. I am very sure it's Bambi or Llama, S_S had every reason to either vote Tbone or us right then and there, the hesitation is a Towntell as a Vanilla claim there. Bambi is, On balance, scummier and has been relentlessly opportunistic and strangely willing to align with a pair for seemingly no reason at all.

[RationalMadman]

UNVOTE: Tbone
VOTE: Bambi Jay

[RationalMadman]

S_S is Llama, Bingle, Tbone and Bambi it's not 5 or did I miss one?

[RationalMadman]

Read Vex earlier and add it to S_S there. How is this scum? I do not believe it at all.

[RationalMadman]

Ana vote Bambi, it is the only way, S_S vote Bambi also is the decider. That will get it to be such that VFP is fully to blame for the outcome and has to take responsibility if S_S is Town. I refuse to let this happen as a passive bystander.


Bingle hasn't justified why S_S is scummiest vanilla claim correct?

[RationalMadman]

Also VFP is the decider*

[RationalMadman]

Good because you are nobody to validate or invalidate another player's read, you're a fellow player, not a superior. If I don't think your reasoning is sound it doesn't matter to you, vice versa for me.

[RationalMadman]

Read Vex earlier and add it to S_S there. How is this scum? I do not believe it at all.

Strongest point to me is look at how they came into the game with looking at me and Bambi. Vex says they can read Bambi, and they arent able to read me and seem nervous about it due to the limited sample of last game, saying in absence of read they would vote me because of it. Then we play a lot of the game, and Vex makes zero attempt to ever read Bambi like they originally claimed, while still seeming to stick hard to the fact that in lack of that read, they would vote me.

Sure its probably in part of where I am that this looks even worse, but if I see one player who pure odds is 50/50 scum saying they can solve one player and refusing to up until they replace out, thats pretty bad in my books. I can see having a harder time than expected to pin down Bambi for Vex, but in what world is there never an attempt to actually figure out Bambi when Vex is town? Even if they want to go lovers first, its nonsensical to actually avoid trying to game solve the player who that if they are confident in their ability would read could either take down or confirm town a player that they are nervous around? That play to me comes from scum who is absolutely fine with me going first given their fear of having to go 1v1, or having to after spent time claiming they can accurately read a player be "wrong" on them and be in serious trouble.

So... Why is Bambi Town to you? Or have you only read Vex? Also, what you mention just means Vex has flawed logic, which I completely agree to. Vex jumps to many conclusions such as that because Vex in their opinion plays similar to Bambi that this somehow is basis to eliminate another player... That is indeed ridiculous to me but not scummy. It's a nulltell.

[RationalMadman]

So why not vote him first?

This is a very strange response. Bambi did vote me, so what are you asking?

[RationalMadman]

Also... that doesn't even make any sense. Hard defending your partner is the dumbest possible strategy in this setup, considering scum only need to win one minigame to win.

The way that people are grouping my pair and you indeed makes no sense at all for this reason. It's also why I find it irksome that both pairs seem opposed to consider bussing and intentional distancing as factors.

[RationalMadman]

Also whoever asked for an extra 2 days you got Smart killed instead of Ration and Ana funnily enough. All cuz we had more time, so Smart dies.

Why is it funny?

[RationalMadman]

I think my money's on Llama scum, though I'm not terribly confident in that. I don't see what scum-Bambi expects to gain by continuing to argue I'm scum.

Probably because of the scenario that happens if you vote him... which why arent you really?

Isn't Bambi a 'her'?

I saw you do this before with someone else I think hut it may have been last game.

[RationalMadman]

I mean, that was just tried....we literally tried with all three lovers pairs over the course of this game. This is not the provocative statement maybe you envisioned it to be?

Well, I'm just confused why it was abandoned. It's plurality voting, it's not as though inability to get a majority was a problem.

If you wanted to hammer on me, the time is up but if you are Town, which I believe you are, it was a great hesitation even though it ended this way. I am Town.

You should out as many reads as you can.

You believe the team to be Llama, Kerset and Bingle correct?

That team is certainly viable but I find Tbone and VFP to be too scummy, they invented reasons to scum read me and backed away now that you became viable, that tells me enough. Nonetheless, Llama, Tbone and VFP is also viable and this is why you being elimimated is terrible as you're the only vanilla claim I firmly see as Town and you being alive assists the solve for me a lot.

[RationalMadman]

If S_S were scum here, he'd not be saying what he's saying. He is Town. It is absolutely blatant to me. He even dumbtold that he forgot I was voted.

[RationalMadman]

Ana change to Bambi please.

[RationalMadman]

You believe the team to be Llama, Kerset and Bingle correct?

I guess yeah? Not really confident in that though...

Then I have misunderstood your reads, what are your reads?

[RationalMadman]

Ana change to Bambi please.

I'm pretty sure it's Llama here. Why does nobody else see it?

if we kill Bambi and she flips green, Llama is just going to skewer and murder SS tomorrow and the game is over.

Llama is the only active (non-passive) reason we survived the vote-off. This could be cold feet from Scum or it could be one of the Towniest moves any players made all game with the push onto one of his CCs.

I am not going to Scumread that over Bambi and furthermore, Kerset is only willing to vote Bambi if I understand correctly.

I am willing to vote Llama, yes, as I am that sure S_S sparing us was a pure towntell. However, I scumread Bambi and without Kerset switching it's futile for me toake a dramatic baseless move by starting a bandwagon on Llama who is less scummy than Bambi that I know will fail. You need to convince Kerset or Bingle to vote Llama. I am willing to do it but strongly suggesting it's Bambi instead.

We owe Llama regardless as much as we owe S_S. Not saying that matters on its own but Bambi has voted absolutely opportunistically all day phase.

I don't understand why we vote Llama here over Bambi. It makes no sense. You say they will vote SS next but they'd do that the other way around too and I scum read Bambi for many behaviours and scum voting patterns.

[RationalMadman]

I think my money's on Llama scum, though I'm not terribly confident in that. I don't see what scum-Bambi expects to gain by continuing to argue I'm scum.

Probably because of the scenario that happens if you vote him... which why arent you really?

Isn't Bambi a 'her'?

I saw you do this before with someone else I think hut it may have been last game.

If you are actually trying to say I am intentionally using wrong pronouns... wow thats just blatantly uncalled for and probably going beyond game content. Typically I try and use "them" in most cases but at times my mind latches onto things like username (like how Bambi is male is Disney) or avatars. Just point it out and I try to fix it. You are just being a bit of an asshole there.

Nope, you are. Nobody in this game has been all that nice to me so in terms of that I couldn't care less. I've been picked on and talked down to by essentially every player.

[RationalMadman]

Ration you have literally been after me this entire game. Continuously doing the same thing and not listening to reason is a form of gamethrowing here.

OGI trying to scare me away from pushing on you.

[RationalMadman]

@RM - Again. I think you are overstating SS not voting you. If they did and you are town, there is a very much non-zero chance SS dies D2 as they outright had called you town already.

I really really really hate the fact that im starting to think RM and Ana are town who basically are in a spot where they refuse to agree about anything out of pure spite for each other.

SS didn't vote Tbone either.

I am not doing anything out of spite towards Ana. Not a single vote made is based on that.

[RationalMadman]

You ignore my posts along with Kerset and having a lover from 2 separate pairs on my ass isn't helping me in knowing who's bad because frankly you seem to just despise my very playstyle.

If you're Town, Tbone and VFP can easily be scum framing you in your eyes so that if they lost after me and Ana went out, their Goon lasts further. You shouldn't in any shape or form think how you're thinking if you're Town here.

If you're Town, I'm very sure scum is Llama, Tbone and VFP.

Your playstyle isn't why I scumread you. Your playstyle last game was to stall votes and hesitate, this game it's the polar opposite. Do you have past games to show me that as Town you vote so willingly on any BW that shows up? I don't see it as Townplay.

Pressure is important to reveal reads, the pressure you put on me was merely insults and AtE, never logic or openminded.

[RationalMadman]

If I use a wrong pronoun, just say "Hey thats not right" and I will fix it.

That's what I did, just didn't know the scripted sentence.

You assumed I claimed you intentionally did it. I don't know your intent, I am not a mind-reader, I assumed it was a mistake and wanted to clarify.

[RationalMadman]

If you accuse me of intentionally misgendering someone again, I will have absolutely no qualms with taking things to another level, because that is way fucking out of the game and entirely unacceptable.

I am ready, take it to that level right this second if you want to, don't threaten me ever again though.

[RationalMadman]

If you accuse me of intentionally misgendering someone again, I will have absolutely no qualms with taking things to another level, because that is way fucking out of the game and entirely unacceptable.

I am ready, take it to that level right this second if you want to, don't threaten me ever again though.

[RationalMadman]

the solution is just Llama - T-Bone - VFP

Why isn't the solution the same pair with Bambi?

[RationalMadman]

They save Ration and Ana because Ration has been on my ass this entire game and that gets 4 votes on me. Literally RM and Ana are playing against each other so it depends on who gets 4 votes first.

The second part of this is a delusion both you and Llama seem to have. I have not in any shape or form played 'against Ana' and other than being inactive, she hasn't played against me.

Ana wasn't going after Llama until the end of the the day phase, I was scumreading you from early on and Ana never 'fought me' on it.

As for the former idea, why risk me being hammered then? The only reason to risk that is if Llama, as Scum, had Bingle and Kerset as partners and they'd planned well ahead of time that if S_S didn't hammer me, they find a good reason to switch (which explains why Bingle joined Llama in switching as they didn't feel confident their pair would win the vote-off the following day but did feel confident Llama wins the vanilla claims vote-off).

[RationalMadman]

RM doesn't care about Ana reads

This is false. The only times she's outed reads, I have cared and engaged her.

[RationalMadman]

wouldnt it have been the worst possible thing for me as scum to flip it away from that pair after trying to redirect it there are deadline? Its already now proven and was likely that SS was the first from the VT pool to go, and if we move back to this same scenario with RM/Ana scum already dead it pretty much means I would win right?

Depends on your pair and how deeply confident you were that your pair won the following day's vote-off.

I think you were semi-confident that if S_S hammered Ana and me, even if your pair lost the vote-off, you'd win the 3-way (as S_S would be voted).

So, I am pondering if you're scum what clues you gave earlier in the day as to which Pair you're aligned with but so far it's extremely cryptic to me. If Bambi is scum, I do think it makes more sense she's with Tbone and VFP for at least 2 strong reasons (one is the reason Bingle townreads her, that she suddenly said it would be funny if Klick and Tbone were lovers this time despite not knowing) and the latter is that Klick and Tbone, or now VFP and Tbone are the only pair she's not clashed with.

I am also curious of something else, with regards to the PTs being released (I checked towards end of last DP and while being voted on top of the time when Llama asked when PTs are being released, as well as right now). Who would not want to release their PTs from last game to now and why? Both Tbone and Klick were vanilla townies last game, meaning that if scum is withholding PTs from last game, it's only 1/3 probability that they're scum (not 50%, incorporation this theory). That makes me highly suspect Kerset and Bingle. On the other hand, it's possible it is Tbone, VFP and Bambi and Bambi is the one preventing it so it's overall useless information but it makes me wonder

why

it's being withheld.

Has everyone in this game that had a PT last game consented to the release now? I have.

I want to see if the 'vibe' each pair described this game matches their PT last game at all. I know that Bingle was actually very reserved in the PT last game. Therefore, I feel there is higher likelihood Kerset's description of the PT with Bingle does add up and is realistic, this is something that is of course too easy to be a false positive given how generic the description of the PT was. I didn't want to mention any of this before as I did and do believe it's VFP and Tbone regardless and think it's possible Vex is the one who didn't want to release PTs.

This information overall is indeed useless in terms of deciding today's vote, since it's all 'if them, then it doesn't matter that way around and vice versa' but I don't understand who has to hide their lover PT or scum PT unless there is a plan or way of thinking that may reveal something this time.

Odds-wise I do therefore Town-lean Llama here because Llama not only asked mod (as I did earlier in the day phase) why PTs aren't being released (I assumed mod would message me when it's released so didn't check much at all but began to get curious after Llama mentioned it again). Llama also asked to extend the day phase after replacements (Llama was extremely safe from being eliminated but may have done this as currently at that moment it was becoming Tbone's pair vs Kerset's in the vote so it's possible scum-Llama does that to indirectly enable the sidetrack and release of pressure away from his pair, whichever it was).

I find these things both lean Town though, Bambi doesn't even answer a massive portion of Kerset's questions to her, all of which have been good. One of the best questions was originally when Bambi voted Kerset, she said that Klick and Tbone had been proactive, yet why on Earth was that true? Kerset quoted themselves asking it several times over, all of which Bambi ignored in essence.

Kerset then asks Bambi why she votes the way she's voting and accuses her of opportunistic voting, which Bambi again totally ignores. This either means it's a bus-like situation, distancing, where Bambi knows Kerset won't push harder based on it or it means Kerset is town (PoE, Tbone and VFP aren't) and that Bambi has scumtold repeatedly.

[RationalMadman]

I want to see if the 'vibe' each pair described this game matches their PT last game at all.

Only one pair can be observed like this, I want to see it with them (Kerset and Bingle).

It is very important for me to see if Kerset's description of the brief PT this game with barely any messages is viable or a probable lie.

[RationalMadman]

I don't understand something about the situation yesterday, why did Bingle and Kerset both imply the other could hijack their vote if need be (Kerset even asked mod explicitly to allow this) but then vote separate anyway and stay silent for the remainder of the day phase?

This reads like scum playing down the middle forcing towntells to me, however I still read Kerset as towny for previous behaviour.

[RationalMadman]

I want to see Llama and Bambi argue more and others react before I vote. At present, I am voting Bambi.

Ana has to explain precisely why Bambi is Town in her eyes, I want to understand this. I can't find a good reason to Townread Bambi.

[RationalMadman]

AND YOU HAVE A GOOD REASON TO TOWNREAD LLAMAFLUFF?!?!

ARE YOU SEROIUS!?!?!?!?

Yes, for instance read Llama's DP1 prior to the vote-off, now read Bambi's.

ISO them and just read. Llama's is Townier in all ways, depth of reasoning is the biggest factor.

Why did Llama unvote us if he is Scum? Why dod he encourage everyone to vote S_S suddenly?

[RationalMadman]

I promise to listen to whatever you say.

I will dance for you and sit on your lap and tell you you are the best player to ever play mafia.

please im begging youuuu

now image that they are actually scum and RM asked ana to post all of this for his masterplan of deception

@mod in this and a 'fan fiction' spoilered post Kerset is fabricating quotes. Is there a rule against it or not?

This entire thing is idiotic. Why would I ask Ana to fight? If I was scum with either Llama or Bambi would I not want the bus to happen or opposite to happen as Scum?

Ana believed Llama was scum and outed it when there were four votes on her and we were fully ready to be voted off, I can quote it if you want.

Are you saying you want to vote us off? Why didn't you hammer yesterday? Is it solely us disagreeing on Llama?

Would it be townier if I randomly agreed with her read on Llama?

Don't insinuate things, be direct.

[RationalMadman]

I am literally the only person in this game who thinks you are scum other than the person you are death-dueling and who you are confirmed scum to.

Saying that this path is harder for you to take than eliminating me/RM is laughable.

Why would you not want to keep RM alive when he's hard-deathtunneling the person you need to eliminate?

Work the other way around.

Imagine Llama is Town there and Bambi is Scum, things add up even more so in my opinion.

Why did Bambi scumread you and I in the first place? Bambi didn't justify the vote at all other than finding me annoying to play with. I have never seen a more scummy series of voting patterns and reasons for voting than Bambi had in Day Phase 1.

You're only focusing on Llama, focus on Bambi and then try and read the situation backwards and think which is more probable.

Llama unvoted you and me and led on S_S so hard, why? I don't know the reason if he is Scum except for fear of our flip putting his team and himself in danger.

I want Bambi and Llama to fully justify why they voted us. No quoting themselves, rewriting any and all reasoning in a fresh post.

[RationalMadman]

I want Bambi and Llama to fully justify why they voted us. No quoting themselves, rewriting any and all reasoning in a fresh post.

Because Ana.

They did nothing the entire game really. The closest they came to actually scumhunting was talking about how that they apparently (note this was after I had been calling VV scum) give me the shot to take out a VT, and if I was wrong I go next. That was really bothering me and still actually does, its the only reason I dont 100% buy your two as the town pair. Also their entire attack on me up until I voted for them seemed to be "they are trying to take control of the game like they did as scum".... when you have no meta on both sides, it starts becoming somewhat flawed without additional context, as in again (which Ana still refuses to confirm) how I said bussing is optimal as scum if you feel it wins the game.

Ana did pretty much nothing until under immense pressure to do something or die. What they did do

knowing I am town is really suspect as it starts trying to give them free outs

if they are wrong. When you couple that with them just trying to befriend Kerset (which mirrors their near absolute lack of content in scum topic last game), it felt very wrong. So yeah. It was pretty much entirely Ana.

This is actually all true except the part I have in bold as that's loaded logic.

It also adds up because Ana only actually outed her full reads and theory while we were on our way to get voted off.

However, I'd like to clarify that this 'only active when under pressure' is not a scumtell. It implies to me that Ana was simply bored with the game and only felt a need to do something when the pressure got intense, I admit I know Ana is Town so I'm biased. Ana's ethos and psyche could be equated to a chronic procrastinator, some people regularly cram things for when the pressure is intense, it's just how they're wired, I reckon Ana is that way and feels this game is more of a chore than fun so approaches it that way. I think she does this ireespectit of alignment so I can't say it's a Towntell but it surely isn't a Scumtell.

If Ana is Scum (from your POV) and only reacts to pressure, why is she still very active and desperate to vote you? What pressure is there if her and I are scum (in this case, from your Town POV we'd now be guaranteed to have Bambi as our partner). Scum pair are more inclined to wait for 3 votes on the real VT and then go for the kill if both are online.

Regardless, I now Townread you enough to place a vote

after Bambi explains why she voted our pair

. I am genuinely sure now. Your thought process as described makes a lot of sense. I just want to see if there is actual logic hidden in Bambi's thought process that I missed. I've reread near the vote and don't understand it.

[RationalMadman]

@Anastasia

What did Llama say about bussing in the PT?

[RationalMadman]

It's not like I can get anyone to vote for him anyway so why does it even matter

If I vote Llama here and he is Town, we lose almost immediately do you understand (scum pair hammers)?

Do you expect the other Town pair to vote Llama and put him E-2?

Nobody should be doing that as Town here.

Why is Bambi Town to you?

[RationalMadman]

I mean I'm leaning that way so...I'm listening.

Why are you listening and not talking? This is dangerous 50% shot that risks losing the game, if you're Town. I say this to all Lovers.

Also why has Bambi gone quiet?

Less talk = higher chance Scum don't release tells. The logic used this day phase will reveal a lot on day three (which we get to if we vote scum here).

[RationalMadman]

First of all, work and sleep exists. Second... Arguing a lot here beyond the base points isn't my style. I'll let Ana Tbone and VFP ask me any questions they need to settle their worries on me.

Why not myself?

[RationalMadman]

I promise to listen to whatever you say.

I will dance for you and sit on your lap and tell you you are the best player to ever play mafia.

please im begging youuuu

now image that they are actually scum and RM asked ana to post all of this for his masterplan of deception

@mod in this and a 'fan fiction' spoilered post Kerset is fabricating quotes. Is there a rule against it or not?

This entire thing is idiotic. Why would I ask Ana to fight? If I was scum with either Llama or Bambi would I not want the bus to happen or opposite to happen as Scum?

Ana believed Llama was scum and outed it when there were four votes on her and we were fully ready to be voted off, I can quote it if you want.

Are you saying you want to vote us off? Why didn't you hammer yesterday? Is it solely us disagreeing on Llama?

Would it be townier if I randomly agreed with her read on Llama?

Don't insinuate things, be direct.

The fact that you panic over pure comedy post is interesting.

It isn't pure comedy at all. Don't pretend what you said wasn't what you said

[RationalMadman]

Bambi I am still waiting for you to answer my question that was both to Llama and yourself.

I won't quote it, prove you read this day phase.

[RationalMadman]

If the vote ends 4-4 doesn't it double eliminate? (I am aware why that's bad, we need vanilla to allow a moselimination on Lovers afterwards) but it's something to consider. I actually NEED Ana to switch if Bambi is to be eliminated as Scum here. I am writing this out because it didn't occur to me how problematic the disagreement between Ana and myself is here until I actually thought about what plurality voting causes to happen in a 4-4.

[RationalMadman]

If the vote ends 4-4 doesn't it double eliminate? (I am aware why that's bad, we need vanilla to allow a moselimination on Lovers afterwards) but it's something to consider. I actually NEED Ana to switch if Bambi is to be eliminated as Scum here. I am writing this out because it didn't occur to me how problematic the disagreement between Ana and myself is here until I actually thought about what plurality voting causes to happen in a 4-4.

No. First of all, that would trigger a scum win immediately as two VT were limmed. Second of all, this is standard plurality. First to highest is limmed. So whoever reached four votes first would get eliminated.

No it wouldn't it's one VT and one Goon.

I never knew first to highest is a rule. I will prefer of mod confirms that.

[RationalMadman]

Oh damn, I just understood what it meant after I submitted that. The wincon for Scum with 2VT eliminated doesn't require Goon to be alive. I just checked to understand.

[RationalMadman]

Sorry Bingle, I understand what you said now.

[RationalMadman]

Edit: it's in the rules that first to 4 votes and it stays tied goes to whoever gets there first. I also said that in an earlier posts but we don't really like to read each other's post so I understand you not seeing it.

Where did you say this? I have read your posts but I admit sometimes I skimread.

If you don't answer my question to you that Llama has already answered then I absolutely will vote you.

[RationalMadman]

Actually, I'd kind of like a pair analysis for every pair from everyone.

btw

@Bambi and RM.

What does this mean, I thought I gave this already when being voted off.

[RationalMadman]

What does this mean, I thought I gave this already when being voted off.

You did, to an extent, but we have a very limited list of options to consider with more information available than we had yesterday and I'd like your thoughts on all of them.

From a RationalMadman PoV, if you're town the viable scumteams are:

LF/us
Bambi/us
LF/TBVFP
Bambi/TBVFP

I'd like you to look at each of those teams individually and say if you think they make sense, with as concise a set of reasoning as you possibly can.

LF makes less sense with Tbone and VFP.

Bambi makes sense with both but because of interactions, not Bambi herself but external interactions with Bambi, I think Bambi is scum with Tbone and VFP (not going to say 'if scum' that's pointless disclaimer, I believe Bambi is scum here).

The reason Llama as scum makes more sense with you and Kerset is not dorectly the unvoting of me at all, that is if anything a sign he's with Tbone and got scared, it's because you so readily pushed on S_S with him, split your votes with Kerset and he showed absolutely no issue with it.

Also, something very strange has happened to both you AND Llama. Day one I think I was the only member of this game that actively opposed the way people were grouping teams solely based on an assumption that Scum don't distance in this setup. I believe I was directly disagreed on this by both Tbone's pair (VFP especially) and you (but not Kerset). The only vanilla claim that directly agreed with me was S_S, Vex actually disagreed with me on this and when S_S said it would be stupid for the lone to buddy the pair it's what made me townread him even harder thsn I already did and want badly for the Bambi elim to happen instead of S_S.

This dayphase suddenly you and Llama both, as well as VFP have suddenly hard-dedicated to perceiving bussing and distancing. Seems like a convenient way to avoid townreading me and Ana despite you boyh saying if S_S is Town we are probably Town last day (not sure you explicitly said this but I am certain I recall it being strongly implied by you and explicitly stated hy VFP who has totally turned their reasoning.

[RationalMadman]

I'm ok with Bambi being elimmed here.

If she flips town i'll get to say i told you so

if she flips scum i'll get to avoid disaster and blame

I am so good at this game.

Why is Bambi Town, explain it. Your current attitude and hard push on Llama isn't helping anything. If Llama is scum, you are not helping at all. Explain why Bambi is townread by you please, you're reading with tunnel-vision and that isn't okay at such a crucial vote. Llama reads as Townier than Bambi to me.

[RationalMadman]

To Ration, Bingle, and Kerset... Ana too I guess

Do all 4 of you agree I'm most likely to be partnered with Tbone and VFP? Genuine question because that'll tell me the course of action I gotta take.

First answer my question to you.

[RationalMadman]

Distancing and Bussing are very different from Buddying.

Identical spectrum, opposite ends.

[RationalMadman]

I am literally the only person in this game who thinks you are scum other than the person you are death-dueling and who you are confirmed scum to.

Saying that this path is harder for you to take than eliminating me/RM is laughable.

Why would you not want to keep RM alive when he's hard-deathtunneling the person you need to eliminate?

Work the other way around.

Imagine Llama is Town there and Bambi is Scum, things add up even more so in my opinion.

Why did Bambi scumread you and I in the first place? Bambi didn't justify the vote at all other than finding me annoying to play with. I have never seen a more scummy series of voting patterns and reasons for voting than Bambi had in Day Phase 1.

You're only focusing on Llama, focus on Bambi and then try and read the situation backwards and think which is more probable.

Llama unvoted you and me and led on S_S so hard, why? I don't know the reason if he is Scum except for fear of our flip putting his team and himself in danger.

I want Bambi and Llama to fully justify why they voted us. No quoting themselves, rewriting any and all reasoning in a fresh post.

Since Bambi is refusing to comply with my clear request to answer this post, I am physically voting her without any hesitation or unvoting until she does answer it. If Ana votes her and the scum pair hammers and she is Town, I will feel absolutely no regret now.

Scum is less afraid than real vanilla to be voted off here, not complying this long is a scumtell, not a towntell.

VOTE: Bambi Jay

[RationalMadman]

I made it even clearer by putting in bold to my reply to Llama's answer, that I wanted Bambi to answer/explain.

[RationalMadman]

I want Bambi and Llama to fully justify why they voted us. No quoting themselves, rewriting any and all reasoning in a fresh post.

Because Ana.

They did nothing the entire game really. The closest they came to actually scumhunting was talking about how that they apparently (note this was after I had been calling VV scum) give me the shot to take out a VT, and if I was wrong I go next. That was really bothering me and still actually does, its the only reason I dont 100% buy your two as the town pair. Also their entire attack on me up until I voted for them seemed to be "they are trying to take control of the game like they did as scum".... when you have no meta on both sides, it starts becoming somewhat flawed without additional context, as in again (which Ana still refuses to confirm) how I said bussing is optimal as scum if you feel it wins the game.

Ana did pretty much nothing until under immense pressure to do something or die. What they did do

knowing I am town is really suspect as it starts trying to give them free outs

if they are wrong. When you couple that with them just trying to befriend Kerset (which mirrors their near absolute lack of content in scum topic last game), it felt very wrong. So yeah. It was pretty much entirely Ana.

This is actually all true except the part I have in bold as that's loaded logic.

It also adds up because Ana only actually outed her full reads and theory while we were on our way to get voted off.

However, I'd like to clarify that this 'only active when under pressure' is not a scumtell. It implies to me that Ana was simply bored with the game and only felt a need to do something when the pressure got intense, I admit I know Ana is Town so I'm biased. Ana's ethos and psyche could be equated to a chronic procrastinator, some people regularly cram things for when the pressure is intense, it's just how they're wired, I reckon Ana is that way and feels this game is more of a chore than fun so approaches it that way. I think she does this ireespectit of alignment so I can't say it's a Towntell but it surely isn't a Scumtell.

If Ana is Scum (from your POV) and only reacts to pressure, why is she still very active and desperate to vote you? What pressure is there if her and I are scum (in this case, from your Town POV we'd now be guaranteed to have Bambi as our partner). Scum pair are more inclined to wait for 3 votes on the real VT and then go for the kill if both are online.

Regardless, I now Townread you enough to place a vote

after Bambi explains why she voted our pair

. I am genuinely sure now. Your thought process as described makes a lot of sense. I just want to see if there is actual logic hidden in Bambi's thought process that I missed. I've reread near the vote and don't understand it.

There is absolutely no way that Bambi failed to understand that I wanted her to answer this.

[RationalMadman]

Ah Ration made his move, this'll be much easier.

You are absolutely losing your sanity at this point if you are Town.

You do understand if Ana votes you with me and you're Town the game is absolutely lost right?

[RationalMadman]

Okay I am done. Everyone vote Bambi.

[RationalMadman]

Bambi has actively refused to answer a direct question repeatedly.

[RationalMadman]

Fake reasoning

[RationalMadman]

You would never ever do this as Town. Ever. Your partners aren't going to hammer you and you aren't going to pass this off as anything other than Scum pulling a ridiculous gambit.

[RationalMadman]

Ana, vote Bambi immediately, it is confirmed now.

[RationalMadman]

Ana, vote Bambi as soon as you see this please. Instantly.

Bambi would be hammered now if real Vanilla.

[RationalMadman]

This is absolutely a scum-only gambit.

[RationalMadman]

So you wouldnt vote RM/Ana in a scenario where under the assumption that there is a 100% scenario to you that they are scum... while if I am town its infinitely less because... ????

I already saw my mistake and I agree with this.
It means lim you is 50% right
Lim RM / Ana is 75% right

Or something along those lines.

I think the better way is to look at Bambi.

Bambi cant be scum with:

Me (duh)
VFP/Tbone (Game would be over)
Bingle/Kerset (Game would be over)

So Bambi is 100% scum

It just depends with who.

I give all the credit to them for trying a gambit, but when its a logic puzzle... the ex-open queue list mod is a horrible person to play it off against.

I'm confused what you said. Why can't Bambi be Scum with VFP's pair or Bingle's pair?

What are you saying?

[RationalMadman]

Bambi is absolutely scum with one of those pairs

[RationalMadman]

I need to think about other pairs... going into today I was around (just spitballing)

50% TBone/VFP
40% Bingle/Kerset
10% Rm/Ana

Will probably lean heavily on others reads because of again what I see as a bad flaw in this setup.

@Bambi - Please explain how I can possibly be town with Ana/RM as town.

Well for one your scum. But hypothetically speaking I'll use VFP and Tbone as my team as an example.

The scum plan is simple: I go unreasonable and trigger Ration's short temper and get him to vote me already. I know you'll vote me, so I vote myself hoping Bingle and Kerset don't hammer me with Ana. Same plan but with the lovers reversed.

Town you doesn't know 100 percent they are scum. Scum you knows who your partners are and can sacrafice them if it means to survive and win against me later. Town you wouldn't instantly throw your townread under the bus without making a case of Bambi/Tbone or Bambi/Bingle. Your too confident it's those 2.

Are you delusional?

If you were Town here, the Scum pair would hammer you the millisecond both were online at the same time. You would never risk that as Town... You have just screwed yourself over with this gambit, I have no idea who would suggest this actually so I'm lost right now as to which pair your partners are.

[RationalMadman]

@RM - Are you able to convince Ana better in your PT right now? Let me know so I can put effort as needed.

What? Is this a joke?

[RationalMadman]

I am extremely confused what Llama is saying about me at this point. Bambi has voted herself to frame me and Ana and Llama thinks that therefore scum is Ana and I.

Llama is correct to say today can now become Ana and myself vs Bambi but is completely incorrect that the pair with Bambi is us. Bambi is scum trying an extremely strange gambit for absolutely no gain. I have actually got no clue which of the pairs has someone that would suggest it and think Bambi possibly did this on her own accord. Based on reactions, VFP seems to have less idea about how the logic should work from a Town POV even being confused about why for Bambi to be Town, me and Ana need to be Scum due to lack of the other pair hammering and therefore is actually more likely to not be Bambi's partner. This may explain also why Bambi so easily and readily voted Ana (after voting me for show instead) with Tbone and VFP on day phase one, she was planning to win by her pair appearing townier on my flip.

Kerset has reacted relaxed and humoured at Bambi's play which is extremely odd to me. Bambi also did this after Kerset began to question her.

So, I want it known that I am now reading a team of Bambi and Bingle's pair.

[RationalMadman]

I already said I'll indulge you if the others agree first. It was my post before that one. I assumed you could read.

Also going off for a bit be back later.

I can read (maybe) but you are dead here. From what you are claiming there is still zero chance I am scum unless Ana/RM is scum first. Its you or them as scum dying here. Thats the only options. No clue how we got this lucky, but im not going to look a gift horse in the mouth.

How is this lucky? Are you saying me and Ana are scum?

[RationalMadman]

How is this lucky? Are you saying me and Ana are scum?

No. He's saying that the 1v1 is no longer Bambi/Llama but Bambi/AnaRM. Which is true. Bambi is confscum or you're scum. Theoretically, Bambi/RM/Ana is possible from the POV of all of the other players as town, so Llama never gets voted out today.

Okay and how is that lucky from his POV? I am Town this is not luckier at all.

[RationalMadman]

This makes absolutely no sense to me, in terms of why Bambi has done this. It's an insane move that has one benefit only (as scum) since it distracted from the natural progressin of discussions and reads.

The chaos may benefit somewhat if she felt her team was about to be somehow exposed but that doesn't help me work out precisely which it was.

[RationalMadman]

@RM how is 1334 a towny mindset?

ignored

RM you said that bambi is scum for ignoring the question, didn't you?

the question you asked makes no sense to me. What is not Towny about Llama's linked post?

[RationalMadman]

Kerset has reacted relaxed and humoured at Bambi's play which is extremely odd to me. Bambi also did this after Kerset began to question her.

If bone comes in and instahammers then i will put all the blame on you bambi for not letting us solve. Neither me or bingle declared the definite scum yet.

rly?

You were laughing in other messages, you can deny it if you want and try to twist what I said. If you really believe Bambi is scum why aren't you voting her?

I fully know it, not just believe, thanks to time and situation and being in the voting position that I am. Ana fully will know it whenever she gets here. I hope you will hammer.

[RationalMadman]

You were laughing in other messages, you can deny it if you want and try to twist what I said. If you really believe Bambi is scum why aren't you voting her?

I fully know it, not just believe, thanks to time and situation and being in the voting position that I am. Ana fully will know it whenever she gets here. I hope you will hammer.

Which messages? My first reaction was 'lol', because it looked ridiculous. After i processed what happened, i was serious.

You shouldn't confuse bad play with scummy play. Just because something is bad it doesn't mean it came from scum. Sometimes townies are insane and the true investigator job is to separate insanity from scum tactics.

Since I am voting Bambi, I know it's scum move. You want me to unvote like a coward or something? Bambi has proven she is Scum to me (and Ana, it's inevitable). We must absolutely know this due to lack of pair-hammer. The longer this goes, the more blatant. It's crystal clear to me... So, I could have only justified and unvote early on hut now I know. Bambi made an absolutely insane gambit that only benefits her as Scum because it rushes the day and reduces reads and discussions of teams at least for now (she is hoping somehow this chaos evens out scumtells amongst others for doubting to vote her).

I have total knowledge now that she is Scum, not just estimation. No hammer... We can wait forever...

[RationalMadman]

@RM how is 1334 a towny mindset?

ignored

RM you said that bambi is scum for ignoring the question, didn't you?

the question you asked makes no sense to me. What is not Towny about Llama's linked post?

He refuses to give reads and call it not-useful for town.

In that post he is discussing the game and issues with its design for scumtells not being that leak-prone. That seems Towny to me.

[RationalMadman]

Ration has been spewing nonsense since day 1 and poorly tried to get the other lovers,

WRONG. I was trying to get YOU and then VFP pushed on me, nice rewriting of history.

[RationalMadman]

Keep in mind that llama would ask for bus and RM would never agree to do other person plan.

You said the opposite to this in a Day 1 post, you said I would go along with plans as scum.

Regardless nothing of this kind if happening in this game, I and Ana are Town. So is Llama, this is a known fact to me now.

[RationalMadman]

Fuck Logic Get Scum.

Ana went AFK, Ration has been spewing nonsense since day 1 and poorly tried to get the other lovers, and Llama won't even follow his own words by voting them. He's delaying it so he can make a case of it being RM/Ana/Me after we kill them. Giving him a better chance to get me elimed isn't what we need here.

Edit: oh now it's all in. Wonderful.

See this is why Bambi is scum. If they are town there is *no* difference to them specifically between voting me or Ana/RM as they apparently confirmed scum, so no difference. Bambi also ignores that to anyone else, this also is true but the VT isnt solved, so Ana/RM would be a better vote to anyone in lover pairs that think I am scum as it provides a safety net that doesnt end the game today. They just ignore it because... its convenient.

Also im not saying its Bambi + RM/Ana. I am saying there is no way it can be anyone but RM/Ana if I am scum. Im still not really confident who is scum with Bambi here. This is just scum panic who I think missed the fact that by self-voting they confirmed I can only be scum with RM/Ana and that makes then the target over me.

I agree to everything in this post. Except that because I know I am Town, I know 'better vote' is a lie, however I fully agree to the logic supplied and would support voting me and Ana over you if I was in anyone's shoes, since Bambi has enabled that new dynamic and so did I thanks to not unvoting her. I knew only Scum will pull that kind of gambit there and I have had scum vibes from Bambi all game.

[RationalMadman]

I think I favour Llama over Bambi as town here.
But I'll wait until my T-Bone gives input. He's the brains.

So why is it me or Bambi for you? Isnt it actually Bambi v RM/Ana?

Like this right here is manipulate as fuck. No it's not Bambi vs RM/Ana.

It actually is because of the hammer that Bambi enabled on herself from a scum pair for that duration of time, I was the only Lover vote on her, I have to be Scum if she is Town, it does actually make a lot of sense.

[RationalMadman]

This entire situation has really fucked with my brain. I can't grasp the logic behind this gambit at all.

[RationalMadman]

Llama fuck you with this game why don't you want Bambi eliminated?

[RationalMadman]

@bingle how do we resolve this? Do i make case for llama and you make case for bambi?

No you both vote Bambi, literally. No case needs to be made.

[RationalMadman]

Really its interesting. Not a single person can logically argue that I am scum without RM/Ana first being proven scum... which I still lean away from being the truth. Yet RM/Ana + Bambi makes sense for everyone but those three players. See this is when I start loving open games, when I can break them and logic the setup into submission. Its like the massclaim strategy for C9++/JK9++ that kneecaps scum chances of trying to get creative, you just have to use everything to your advantage. And now... I can start bending things to prove that worst case, scum logically cant target me... if RM/Ana are town literally ever target me... this is my element.

I don't think you understand. This situation isn't superior just because you will live. Ana and I are Town, do you actually understand this is just as bad? If me and Ana are voted off we lose.

[RationalMadman]

Ana, when you see this, please post more. This is a very crucial moment. I am explicitly asking you to stop this inactivity playstyle.

[RationalMadman]

I'm just confirming this is mostly the mindset your doing this with.

The mindset is that purely from a numbers place, we win 0% of the games we lose by limming LF if we lim AnaRM. We win a nonzero % of the games we lose by limming AnaRM by limming LF.

It's objectively true that limming RM/Ana is superior from the POV of any town player outside of RM/Ana.

The pushback on that is both bizarre and a waste of time.

I didn't pushback on it, I pushback on Llama being happy about it.

[RationalMadman]

VC 2.13

With 8 votes, it takes 5 to eliminate.

Bambi Jay (3)

- LlamaFluff, RationalMadman, Bambi Jay

LlamaFluff (1)

- Anastasia

Note voting - T-Bone, Kerset, Bingle, VFP

Day 2 ends in (expired on 2021-06-02 16:00:00)

We could have hammered at this point of time. We cant be scum with llama. Still, it doesn't mean that llama is town.

Yep. As repeatedly stated, especially as the game continues to not have ended, I can *only* be scum with Ana/RM at this point. If I was scum with anyone else Bambi would already be dead and scum would have won. Four possible pairings exist.

The biggest point that makes it blatant that Bambi is scum is that her reasoning for taking the huge risk was to prove that me and Ana were scum correct? So why is she voting you instead of me or Ana now? Why is she trying to paint you as Scum for advocating for that? Bambi's logic doesn't follow at all. It is very blatant which vanilla is fake even if you aren't me and Ana (or yourself, Llama) because her reasoning doesn't match her actions. The risk of hers was so huge for so little gain as a Vanilla since if she was correct, she'd then be just as back-against-the-wall to win the vote-off. Why would she risk that hard? It was so sudden and out of nowhere, it has only one benefit that I can perceive; rushing the day's chat to become chaotic and less about teams-if-Bambi-scum and much more about you and RM+Ana pair vs Bambi alone. This has only one benefit if we were onto something about her before, I am still trying to spot precisely what though. Which pair would suggest it for that purpose? We, or at least both me and Bingle, suspected Tbone and VFP as the partners of Bambi, so by default they are more suspicious. It's also true that at the end of D1 VFP suddenly began to push hard on my pair out of nowhere so the pace and target of this gambit matches that Day Phase 1 thing but I firstly think this play was largely Bambi's own idea, the reason is that both pairs reacted to her play in a way that implies there was no intended way for it to 'play out', in fact both pairs had one member of the pair not as keen to vote Ana and myself (T-bone and Kerset) with VFP at first not realising it either, so this implies to me that unless Bingle planned it out with Bambi without addressing Kerset much in their scum chat, it appears Bambi largely invented this on her own and the pair just has gone along with it.

I also believe that based on reactions, only Bingle's pair properly gained from this new dynamic seems to be pitting Tbone's pair against ours yet again indirectly. After all, this play matches the idea of bussing between Bambi and myself perfectly while also making Tbone and VFP seem guilty for it. Therefore, I am becoming extremely suspicious of Kerset and Bingle with this, more than ever before in the entire game. This play right here only makes proper sense from them if I am reading things correctly in the reactions to Bambi's actions.

[RationalMadman]

I am extremely confused. Extremely. How is Bingle claiming I confscum?

[RationalMadman]

VOTE: RM

This is now confscum to me. I am willing to vote whichever vt kers/vfp/Tbone arrive at.

Please explain this. Please.

[RationalMadman]

I just understood why I am confirmed to Bingle which means Bingle is confirmed to me. I didn't see the vote where VFP was online having hammer properly for what it was.

[RationalMadman]

The team is Bambi, Bingle amd Kerset.

[RationalMadman]

You didnt catch anything.

[RationalMadman]

You just voted yourself and st worst got hammered by the other Town pair which probably wasn't going to happen either way and if it did you could hope that bussing accusations won it for your pair which I now know are bingle and kerset.

[RationalMadman]

I await your long essay of why your right and everyone is inferior to your genius brain.

Have you even read the discussions at all recently by the way? Why not counter Llama's logic here? Your not even adding new points why I'm scum.

And if you believe that trio make a damn good case. If it comes to Bingle/Kerset/Bambi and Ration/Ana/Llama we sure as hell aren't gonna lose to you guys.

Why would I counter Llama's logic?????

[RationalMadman]

He is VT and you are Goon. He is saying that me and Ana can be scum with you from his POV. It is true from his POV but it is false. It is bingle, kerset and you.

[RationalMadman]

Outside of what looks to be fabrication on Llamas side, what actually makes Llama scum here?
I'm not asking as if there is anything either.

So we know Day 1 Llama wanted to vote RM / Ana, but I I joined Llama moved to SS who was my leading VT scum.
With what we know now, what level of consideration do we take that Llama was legit doubting, or Llama was distancing and had to not risk RM / Ana as scum?

Outside of that I don't recall Llama doing scummy actions of even influencing my reads in a way but there may parts I'm missing.

And that question is to everyone really.

Llama isn't scum here, do you want me to rehash why I originally did think Llama could be scum regarding the D1 sudden push on S_S?

[RationalMadman]

Kerset and Bambi actually distanced perfectly this game, I have been rereading stuff and their interactions are very difficult to scumreead, however Bingle overplayed by outing an early townread on Bambi and since then Bingle and Kerset have dedicated to playing down the middle (until this exact moment when it's not optimal anymore).

I already predicted that because of the crazy play from Bambi, that pair actually had become more likely to be scum with her and I stand by what I've said. I have nothing more to add.

Vote correct or don't, it's your fault either way. You already were voting us wrong Day 1 and now I know it was as town (VFP and Tbone) so it won't surprise me if this repeats.

[RationalMadman]

Also VFP. If Llama can only be scum with RM/Ana, then flipping Llama as scum ends the game, yes?

Whereas if you think RM/Ana can be scum with both of them, then we're just repeating this argument of Bambi vs Llama on Day 3.

At this point tell me what you want me to say or do. I don't understand why it isn't obvious to you.

Llama is not scum, look at the depth of Llama's posts vs Bambi's, just observe it. Llama has had more logic all game, it's a fact.

[RationalMadman]

vfp DO NOT VOTE LLAMA

please listen to me please, tell me what you are basing this on Tbone.

[RationalMadman]

VFP DO NOT VOTE LLAMA, you literally carried this game by not voting Llama before just tell me the reason you think it's me, tell the full reason

[RationalMadman]

Also VFP. If Llama can only be scum with RM/Ana, then flipping Llama as scum ends the game, yes?

Whereas if you think RM/Ana can be scum with both of them, then we're just repeating this argument of Bambi vs Llama on Day 3.

If we're right we have 4 confirmed town to discuss and an entire game day.
RM/Ana has more of a chance to flip scum than Llama. That's just how it is.

How? How is this actually logical at all? Do you understand Bambi herself engineered her self-vote such that if I didn't unvote it forced me and Ana to be boxed into never being a clear pair? That isn't increased probability that is engineered forced confirmation bias.

[RationalMadman]

oh i know, because llama said in PT that he can outtalk bambi tomorrow as long as it is you who dies today not him

is this you talking to me? You think tha'ts why I'm scared of VFP voting Llama? No. You and Bingle are both here to scum-pair-hammer him and win instantly.

[RationalMadman]

forced bullshit to smear me as scum for fearing Llama elim

[RationalMadman]

You are slipping very hard now Kerset. It is not scummy that I am scared of Llama elim.

[RationalMadman]

Yes, but I should be more terrified of VFP voting Llama here casually not realising it's an instahammer via you and bingle.

[RationalMadman]

VOTE: llama but we need 5, so i will move if you insist

Eh.

I'll trust you. I think you're wrong, but I'll trust you. I frankly don't have the WIM to argue the TBone/Bambi/VFP team I think it is anyway.

VOTE: Llama

VFP, prove yourself conftown or win the game please.

How can Bingle justify this vote actually?

Like actually look at this vote and what Bingle risked if he were Town (which I know for certain he is not).

[RationalMadman]

How can Bingle justify this vote actually?

Because Kerset is sure and instead of having a pissing match about who is right I decided to trust in the person who is to me conftown. Reads are the weakest area of my town game, and I can admit that.

More importantly, and this is hilarious: My alignment is now irrelevant to the game. I have put the game in a position where either we win the VT 50/50 or we lose. You and I? We can't endgame, because TBone is conftown. If I was scum here, I just threw away any chance I had of winning the lover pool to not meaningfully impact the 1v1 in the VT pool. ScumMe could have instead waited until deadline and hoped to quietly quickhammer the person who wasn't my buddy, but I didn't do that.

Not exactly. If you believed that VFP would hammer Llama, it was indeed a worthwhile gamble and you had the fallback where the dynamic of me, ana and Llama vs you, Kerset and Bambi is just forced.

Don't for a second pretend you didn't consider VFP hammering Llama as viable, it is the entire reason it was worth for you to do as Scum. You're painting a picture of 'fruitless risk' from scum POV but the fruit was VFP hammering Llama. I happened to be offline, not posting here at all and Ana barely posts at all, so you and Kerset saw a perfect opportunity where you felt we couldn't fight back and hoped VFP would take the bait.

[RationalMadman]

Not exactly. If you believed that VFP would hammer Llama, it was indeed a worthwhile gamble and you had the fallback where the dynamic of me, ana and Llama vs you, Kerset and Bambi is just forced.

Don't for a second pretend you didn't consider VFP hammering Llama as viable, it is the entire reason it was worth for you to do as Scum. You're painting a picture of 'fruitless risk' from scum POV but the fruit was VFP hammering Llama. I happened to be offline, not posting here at all and Ana barely posts at all, so you and Kerset saw a perfect opportunity where you felt we couldn't fight back and hoped VFP would take the bait.

Why isn't Me/Kerset/Llama

a possibility from your perspective?

Nice slip.

Bambi literally voted herself, Ana voted her on top of me. You and Kerset were both online posting and not hammering as a pair on Bambi despite Bambi herself having 3 votes on her. Then even though Bambi unvoted herself, she still had 3 votes because Ana had voted her. Bambi clearly was watching and baiting ready to unvote and had picked a time for the gambit where she was ready to react (but that's stupid as a pair can block a reacter if they are faster due to coordination).

Are you actually joking right now?

[RationalMadman]

I suspect scum Bingle would play to T-Bone over me expecting me to just follow T-Bone given day 1.

I can outright tell you that scum Bingle would have hedged his bets and kept the mechanically superior capability of winning through the lover pool.

Yet, he didn't. Perhaps because he thought of the mechanical benefit of instantly winning with Llama elim via VFP hammer.

[RationalMadman]

You can feel the pressure now can't you? It is the pressure of failing to pull of an instawin.

[RationalMadman]

while continuing to point out that mechanically limming you was better than limming LF.

even I have agreed to that from the very start, you and I perceived the correct logic path of Llama being town with Ana and me meaning Llama vs Bambi is also me and Ana vs Bambi, that much I know. It was no doubt you, not Kerset, who discussed the plan with Bambi (though I am still open to reading it as her coming up with is herself since the execution was so spontaneous).

I had already agreed with Llama on that (not being voted, on the fact Llama was Town with me and Ana being concrete) from the moment I refused to unvote Bambi after her gambit (which I could have done if I was scared of my read being wrong and I was online early enough based on speech before a full pair was since her gambit or so I think).

I was so sure of my read from that point on, I didn't unvote, hard-agreed with Llama encouraging it to become us vs Bambi and you act like it's your own agreement. Not at all, you just saw what I and Llama saw and knew there was no argument against it.

[RationalMadman]

I never once opposed Llama saying it was now me and Ana vs Bambi, not once.

[RationalMadman]

I would just like to say, Ana literally only posts for prod dodges if you analyse her activity level. I am sad to have had this lover, how TF to win? Really how? Ofc I will be scumread with a lover who doesn't do anything positive all game. Ofc. This is so horrible.

[RationalMadman]

Tbone why do you townread Bambi?

[RationalMadman]

There was a lot laid put by me including how I descrobed Ana and my Lover PT that was ingended to leave clues Llama was our partner. I had planned that long ahead of time secretly including how hard I distanced Bambi from me.

I do not deny Bambi played well and was creative and commendable but I don't think you guys realise that I played Day 2 after her gambit with subtle intent already for me and Ana to be voted off if need be. As soon as the unfortunate Bingle VFP incident happened, I strategised woth Bambi ways to interact and make it seem natural such that I'd tank the voteoff without giving a single overt signal that Ana and I were willing and happy to get voted off (it's more difficult than you may think, juat playing bad/weak isn't enough, you need to really seem upset a d emoralised while secretly having hope and joy as people scumread you, such as Tbone).

I am extremely proud of myself and also Bambi for how we played this game. Ana was LVP of the entire game and a displeasure to work with.

[RationalMadman]

Laid out*

[RationalMadman]

Intended*

[RationalMadman]

Why not Klick? If you got an issue with me you dodge me then. If you got an issue then report me. Don't get upset I played to win.

[RationalMadman]

Why not Klick? If you got an issue with me you dodge me then. If you got an issue then report me. Don't get upset I played to win.

I mean... if he just doesn't want to play with you it's only polite to not sign up for or replace into games he's already in. It's a reasonable request.

I'll take it as a sign of respect. Though I personally think allowing any user to ban a player they fear playing against is pretty toxic since being good becomes punishable.

[RationalMadman]

You should stop just posting stuff about Kerset and whatever, it isn't going to be a towntell no matter how you try to play it off, especially as people saw you last game. Try and out a read or two if you can over time.

How rude

How is that rude?