Open 842: Diffusion of Power [Postgame]

[Shirou]

I can't read hydras if at least one of the heads doesn't sign

it's page 2 and I'm already confused on what head is posting what



VOTE: morph the cat

[Shirou]

...there is no game allotment. Get outta here with that.

implosion, I like (have we played together?). Ydrasse, I like because I'm easily flattered. Cephrir, I actually do like and think he's about a million times happier to be here than his scum game.

--PA

thank you

[Shirou]

I can't read hydras if at least one of the heads doesn't sign

it's page 2 and I'm already confused on what head is posting what



VOTE: morph the cat

We don't sign.

Obligatory "If I think it matters who's making one of our posts, then I'll make it clear in what I write, who is posting."

See 34 for a simplistic example.

also: spayhalf = ffery, neuterhalf = cabd for future reference.

okay

if that's how you're gonna play sure

but just to say it in advance, if you guys trajectory later on feels like a mess and your slot sketchy, I'm not gonna buy you guys retroactively going into "oh that one was Cabd's post" or "oh that one was ffery's post". I'm not going into that rabbit hole later on, to me hydras either sign their posts from the start or accept that they are not gonna be treated as proper hydras by me and simply judged as a whole.

If you won't make an effort to distinguish the heads/who's talking, do not

ever

expect me to do that job for you.

I don't want to sound rude or mean, but it's something I need to make clear about my perspective on hydras.

[Shirou]

Also shirou - I, Tammy, will never remember to sign. Well probably not. I don't really sign anyway, and I think we'll be easy enough to tell apart. But, I was going to make a cutesy signature and refer to myself as Penthesilea and I forgot to even do that. :/

eh it's fine as long as PA signs really (and ?he? has been doing a good job)

don't worry

Spoiler:

[Shirou]

trajectory

I giggled a bit.

Suffice it to say we PREFER to be treated as a single entity and not two separate players once stuff gets going.

oh

that's unusual but if it's the case it's alright then

Both heads of the Amazonian hydra are female.

oh sorry then for the wrong pronoun early

would be an odd hydra name if they weren't, really

huh

hadn't paid too much attention to their names but yeah, now that you mentioned it...

[Shirou]

The giggle is because spay pretty much INTRODUCED the term "trajectory" into the mafiascum lexicon.

oh, I thought her title was solely because she was really good on reading people by their trajectory or something, but it seems she also introduced the term to the forum hm...

interesting

[Shirou]

It's how morph has played since 2013. I don't want to sound rude or mean either, but we won't change how we play in this game regardless of your perspective on hydras.

No it's fine

I wasn't trying to make you change your style if you guys were set on it, I was just basically telling you in advance I would treat you as mostly a single entity and later on it would be impossible to convince me to change my approach to your slot.

But you said you even preferred it that way so it's fine I don't have any issue with that

[Shirou]

The giggle is because spay pretty much INTRODUCED the term "trajectory" into the mafiascum lexicon.

oh, I thought her title was solely because she was really good on reading people by their trajectory or something, but it seems she also introduced the term to the forum hm...

interesting

Did you do some pre-game research on the player list?

Hmm, not really?

my first account here is from 2018, and I've read a fair share of old games/threads, so I've seen ffery be mentioned there and here, or even posting there and here, and I noticed the title, but I don't think I have ever seen her play a normal game from start to finish, only an old random marathon if my memory still works properly.

If the one I'm talking to is Cabd, I do think I've seen more of your play here and there, but still not enough to say I've any idea of how you play at all. I often didn't finish the old games I used to start reading.

I also know Tammy is recognized as a very strong scum hunter if I'm not mistaken...

Well, part of my motivation to signing up to this game is because there's lots of established older players here that I either never played a proper game with or have played with before but not a lot/many games.

[Shirou]

whom among us has not spent hours pouring through fferyllt's wiki page searching for clues to the mysteries of life

oh god it's poring through not pouring through ohhh god i misspoke in front of everyone just eliminate me now

anyways i would probably scumread myself for this opening because i'm not being serious despite there arguably being readable content from people but i honestly didn't really get anything out of it so RVS and being a weirdo is what you get from me instead for now

hahaha, I would be slightly surprised if you were scum here with this post now

I feel like even in the case scum!NSG opened a game without getting into "sorting" (either because you didn't feel like it or because you didn't know what to say), I think rather than joke about it and bring attention to the fact you would ask about small stuff or something...

hm

perhaps I'm reading too much into this though

[Shirou]

also just like you NSG I didn't think anything in particular of the "content" there already is so maybe it's normal...?

That would be a very, very old marathon game.

it was ffery. I was on hiatus from ~2018 until late 2020. most of my games are start to finish affairs, but I probably play in hydrae as frequently (or more) than on my main. This hydra alone has played 22 or 23 games.

Yes, I think once I adventured through very, very old marathon games just to see what it was like back then. I was a bit of a marathon enthusiast for awhile.

[Shirou]

I'm scared of GL's scum game but don't tell him it's a secret

[Shirou]

I'm scared of GL's scum game but don't tell him it's a secret

I'm just worried he'll refuse to leave the dance and make Ydrasse cry again.

so guiltylion is guilty of that as well?

yeah probably a good idea to just quickelim him D1 before he gets the chance to

VOTE: guiltylion

[Shirou]

so guiltylion is guilty of that as well?

viewtopic.php?p=13167407#p13167407

Hmm, I see

the first surprise about that game is the fact Ydrasse was scum, by how you mentioned it, I thought it was ydrasse/guilty town and his partner in the dance was scum, therefore they had lost the game when he refused to kill his partner and himself

but most importantly (and completely unrelated to this game)

Spoiler:

fire is using an anime girl avatar now...?!

However, are you showing me that game just to explain the content/as small talk or did you have some game-related side-objective with that?

[Shirou]

However, are you showing me that game just to explain the content/as small talk or did you have some game-related side-objective with that?

context*

[Shirou]

fire is using an anime girl avatar now...?!

it's a good avi honestly

indeed, although I can't help but giggle at the sight of it since he's the one using that.

fire is using an anime girl avatar now...?!

He lost a dead thread bet with Pooky about the dancegame.

heh

Perhaps I should start making bets with people so that I can do an anime revolution in mafiascum dot com, but unhappily I think I would lose much more often than I would win...

and if I lost it...they would make me use some really random avis wouldn't they...

[Shirou]

Well, just don't do it in the game unless you want to descend to modkilled-hell.

Wait till you're in the dead thread~

The "anti-bet" rule in ongoing games right? I wasn't sure it applied to avatar bets though hm, good to know.

by the way if anyone is perhaps wondering

no I don't have any intention to actually play mafia/seriously until someone scum it up (in my personal view)



see you

p-edit: heh

[Shirou]

Okay I had written the above before those new posts

maybe I'll stay around for a couple more minutes

I'm mildly interested in GL now

[Shirou]

If you won't make an effort to distinguish the heads/who's talking, do not ever expect me to do that job for you.

hmm maybe I should have read this post first

but why so annoyed at the idea of trying to do it? it might be annoying, but don't you kinda need to try to do that work if you want better odds of sorting them correctly?

I mean we've already discussed about it and both me/morph seemed satisfied with each other replies, so you can read that first if you want

but basically the TL;DR is that I refuse as an

individual

to put more effort into something that they aren't trying harder on by themselves first. This isn't just a mafia rule, it's...a bit of a general rule to me?

It's annoying and it takes practice, but basically one hydra that wants to have their heads thoughts/reads/takes/etc properly distinguished can simply sign their posts which takes perhaps less than a second.

After they sign and have contributed their part into helping people distinguish the heads, it's up to other players to separate and remember in their memories/note threads the difference in reads/opinions/etc between reads. That way, it's a group effort.

If a hydra doesn't have at least one head signing their posts but was against being treated as a more unified entity, they would be basically delegating all the work/effort of making their slot readable onto other players when they could solve half of the problem spending one or two extra seconds on every post. It doesn't feel...correct.

However Morph already said they are fine being considered a more unified sort of entity even if they are a hydra, so that feels completely acceptable/alright to me now.

[Shirou]

reads/opinions/etc between reads.

heads*

[Shirou]

hmmm Shriou, how excited would you say you are to play this game?

"excited" huh?

That's up to how you define excited?

am I excited to get into heated arguments and lose my sanity to either feel foolish when my tunneled slot flips town or to feel a short-lived bit of satisfaction for one day or two if it flips scum? Nah. I used to before but nowadays no, eliminating scum/solving here and there is still fun but I'm here mostly to...chill I guess?

I'm not very thrilled at all about getting sweaty/tryharding unless I'm confident on a SR. However, I

am

"excited", or rather ?happy?, to have the opportunity to talk and play with this playerlist. If I ever get to the point of town leaning one of NSG/Tammy/ffery & Cabd, I may default to sheeping one of them if I don't feel confident on anything.

Why? Well, I've seen NSG games by myself, but in the case of Tammy/Morph I guess I would be trusting "wisdom of the crowd" or so due to the things I've heard.

Now...I'm gonna answer the other question in my next post

unrelated trivia fact#1:

Spoiler:

This change in mindset is why I think I prefer scum rather than town now (did I become a pokemon shiny in the current era of "everyone wants to be town"? maybe.), but this game in particular I was still hoping to roll town because lots of strong scum hunters + multiple cops sounds like it would take too much effort to even stay alive, let alone win the game.

[Shirou]

(For context of people who don't know, the Cabd in Morph and the PA in Amazon are husband-wife.)

oh wow, thanks for the clarification.

I knew Cabd had got married to someone from here but I hadn't realized it was PA huh...

now the page 1 ~ 3 talk about "morph miseliminating amazonian is a death sentence" sounds more believable. I'm usually a bit skeptical about that sort of claim so I didn't take it to heart at first.

ps: okay now I'm gonna get to answering the other stuff, this post was too interesting to not comment on first

[Shirou]

How much forum mafia experience do you have ultimately?

I played on team mafia 2021 and in game with implosion happening in a similar time-frame...before that one/two micros with Norwe in 2020...(it was a single game but rerolled midway)

Anything older than that I don't remember when it happened exactly, but yeah, I guess the answer is "haven't played a lot lately".

I kinda thought I was never gonna come back you know? I began to think putting so much effort in the games wasn't worth it anymore, so since my drive to play the games was vanishing, I thought of myself as retired...

ah...the innocence huh

although I'm here now for truly different reasons/drives

[Shirou]

Unless you meant how much mafia experience I've in total

to which the answer is...considerable? although I take long breaks every few games, I've been here for around 3 years

I used to change accounts every few months or so, in case anyone wants the info I also went by the names Fumuki/Volpe/Churros/Buki/Nibbui and a couple more...

[Shirou]

i can identify who shirou is on sight regardless of account, it's happened 100% of the time

hahaha

it's true! if you want to know whether an anime alt is me or not you can always ask NSG I guess

only once she got slightly doubtful whether it was me or not because I was putting a bit more effort into not having ten thousand grammatical errors in every post (I only had one thousand for a few minutes in that account!), but she soon realized it was me anyway.

[Shirou]

aaaaahhh Fumuki eh, if you are scum you definitely shouldn't have told me that

kkkkkk

I'm a believer of fairness okay! It's no fun to win games by cutting edges, is it now? so I would have told you or anyone else that information regardless of my alignment or circumstance.

However yeah I'm simply town here, not much of a disadvantage even if people get paranoid of me.

(note: in my country we unanimously use "kkkkk" to laugh in the internet, I often try to use the universal "hahaha" but it always feels a bit off...so I'm gonna be using "kkkkkk" from now on after all, unless someone has a problem with it).

[Shirou]

although I'm here now for truly different reasons/drives

What are the reasons/drives?

Hmm...some are kind of personal but I'll try to say the others:

1) As impossible as it sounds and seems I want to hopefully gradually start diminishing my grammatical errors while writing in English, bit by bit?

2) It's fun to play/solve the games as long as it's very casually and only when I feel like it. I'm aiming for as little stress/pressure possible.

3) Along the years I've been here I've got to meet some rather fun/interesting people, so it's nice to get to play/see them again there and here, it's nostalgic even if we don't really know much about each other outside of mafia games. Also at the same time you get to meet new players. I try to aim now for games with playerlists containing both players I know and players I don't know for that reason...like this one.

4) It's always fun to me to

watch

mafia games, I enjoy being a spectator and that's why I liked reading older games, but at the same time you end up thinking "what if I had suggested this or that" while watching them, so I ended up deciding to play again but try to sit back a bit more often when possible, just watch the chaos unless I feel like I've a meaningful contribution to do (I was always trying to actively "lead" wagons, defend my slot and etc before even when it would be more beneficial for me to shut up)

But...I'm talking a bit too much about myself now ain't I...?

Guys stop giving me hard questions to which I can only answer with long serious posts

please and thank you

[Shirou]

I want to townread Shirou with no reasoning behind it.

and you still would have the correct solve ~

[Shirou]

I’m so confused right now.

Who are the hydras again? What people constitute them so I don’t get confused when they’re talking about the individuals?

Friendly reminder that I know exactly zero people here and their metas even less, so I likely won’t be much help at the moment.

Hello fua

The hydras are "Morph the cat", composed of the players "Cabd" and "fferryllt", and "Amazonian Legends" whose is composed of "penguin_alien" (aka PA) and "Tammy".

In the first case, "Morph the cat" is a hydra that seems to have as one of its purposes a "synchronization" of the players, so signing their posts is probably kinda counter-intuitive to them since they seem to even have a title about how much they "mindmeld". Basically don't think too hard about which head is posting what in this one in my opinion except when they go out of their way to clarify what head posted what (which doesn't seem like it'll happen too often).

In the second case, "Amazonian Legends", penguin_alien is signing their posts with "PA", therefore it's fine to assume any posts without a sign are almost surely from Tammy.

p-edit: I even went out of my way to do a nice post but you guys beat me to it...oh well gonna post anyway. I only tried hard to explain here because I also felt a bit confused by the hydras at the start. It's easy to feel like helping out when you relate to someone/something huh...

[Shirou]

It's easy to feel like helping out when you relate to someone/something huh...

Strange add-on, but I also feel pocketed so I think it’s fine.

It's just that I didn't want it to seem like I'm trying to be

extra

nice just to pocket you or to appear a "goody townie shoes"

initially I thought about only saying "read post 0/page 1~3" where we talk about the hydras, but since I was also pretty lost about the hydras at the start I felt like going the extra mile in the reply

and yes, I'm self conscious of what I post as town as well. It's kinda a pain in the ass if people begin suspecting me for silly stuff like that.

[Shirou]

I want to not sit on my ass and be useless this whole time.

haha...useless you say...

"useless" as kinda like as if someone...already had 30 posts in a 170 posts game with 13 players...but had barely talked about anything truly game-related...?

I see...hopefully no one is like that in this game yep...

[Shirou]

VOTE: Shirou

Very self-aware. Almost too self-aware, if I do say so myself.

kkkkkk

come on it was a joke! I know I'm not funny but I try okay? it should count towards something...

But oh well, I've been relatively often told I'm kinda too self-aware at times (and I agree with the assessment?), so if you scum read that behavior I guess it's only natural/unavoidable you'll suspect me a bit at the start. I'm

also

self-aware that is rather rare for me to not be obvtown by D3 or so when I'm town though, so you'll see the light at some point and for now I'm gonna turn a blind eye to your impressions of me.

Do you have any uninteresting thoughts about the game?

i don't have any idea of how to play the setup really, or if there's some specific strategy for this setup that would cause it to be played any way different than a regular one.
i lean town on fua.

Hmm, as far as I know/could think of the standard play here is probably "cops claim result after the night they acted upon" and "doctors claim result if there's a no kill on a given night".

I tried to think about something more...

FUN

, and I kinda had a silly idea, but I felt a bit too self-conscious in this playerlist to open the game with it. Well either way that's as far as I know for town, for scum I can imagine multiple fun gambits to do...

this may sound like some kind of attack or affront or something given that i'm saying it to you (it's not meant to be), but i wonder if it would be best for town / for overall game health if the top posters were to sit back for a while. there are still people who haven't posted and it's always daunting to arrive to there already being like ten pages, and in general it might help get reads on some of the lower frequency posters. like i said, that isn't a recommendation – it's actually just me wondering, perhaps the distribution of posting is the reason why nobody seems to have any serious reads. or maybe it's just because we've somehow gotten onto really non-revealing conversation topics, who knows.

hmm...yeah I've been kinda thinking I should have stopped posting for a bit it's been at least 10 posts or so, sorry. I feel it's possible to get out of this content limbo even without stopping the hyperposting but the easiest and perhaps more optimal way is to just wait other slots to check the game. Time to go eat, do the new event or something I guess.

[Shirou]

tried to think about something more...FUN, and I kinda had a silly idea, but I felt a bit too self-conscious in this playerlist to open the game with it.

NSG and both halves of morph are mechanics nerds, you will find safe haven for that sort of topic should you change your mind.

(potentially last post I promise)

I'm also a bit of a mechanical nerd but you see, I don't care as much about the

optimal

thing to do as much as I like having a plan that seems fun and mildly chaotic/unexpected to execute, which often makes me create silly plans that don't actually achieve anything or plans that are too swingy.

Well, but since we barely have anything to talk about at the moment, before I leave I'll mention it I guess.

I thought perhaps we should

massclaim

. Right here in D1, except with a weird and ?silly? rule:

We can lie about ours roles/night.

Therefore you may end up thinking "okay, but what is the difference between doing that and nothing?", and this is my reasoning:

Before we rolled alignments, I was thinking about how to play scum in this setup because as town it seemed simply enough to just claim actions when necessary and scum/town hunt normally. But as scum in this setup, you're gonna need to fakeclaim, and at minimum one of the scum needs to claim either cop or doctor, they can't all claim the same role no matter the setup roll.

I'm not gonna do scum job for them and explain what is sub-optimal to fakeclaim and why, but the fakeclaim you're gonna use in this game is kinda important, but even if you understand what to fakeclaim and when as scum here, the thing is what's "optimal" to fakeclaim depends on what town PRs do and what results they end up with, so basically it's very circumstantial.

As scum I would want to delay my claim here as far as possible so that I can have maximum flexibility to hopefully counter how circumstantial/swingy this setup can get.

Therefore, if we "massclaimed but you're free to lie about it", the people that lied about their roles can camouflage the people that will tell the truth, (scum have the numbers of cops/doctors but that still wouldn't tell much to them about who is lying or not), and in for their turn, the people that later confirm their role as what they initially "claimed" here are more likely than not town/telling the truth (with the caveat that the early your night action is, the "townier" it sounds). Even if scum decides to fakeclaim something here and follow up on it for the "town points"/"WIFOM", they are still gonna be locked on a claim and there's definitely "mechanical penalties" here for scum fakeclaiming early.

There's some other stuff it can do as well but if I explain that part it's quite a bit more pointless, it needs to happen naturally.

Basically, it's a "plan" that perhaps will do literally nothing positive, perhaps there's even the possibility of stuff going wrong and scum correctly identifying the ones that told the truth, but also the possibility that it'll cause they do certain mechanical mistakes which I'm trying my best to not explain in detail at the same time I try to explain the potential positive side of all this.

Hmm, basically, it's less of a "mechanical plan" and more of a silly gamble/gambit. It feels like a too serious/experienced playerlist for this to ever take off so I thought I shouldn't bother mentioning it, but here we are I guess.

[Shirou]

actually this is important and I only realized it now so I've to ask

@catboi is voting for "no elimination" a possibility for an early day end?

[Shirou]

Therefore you may end up thinking "okay, but what is the difference between doing that and nothing?", and this is my reasoning:

Your reasoning fails to persuade me of this :p

Everything you're describing here can be achieved if people breadcrumb well. I already have, for one.

I kinda know...except not really

If I was scum I would do multiple well hidden breadcrumbs here, one for doctor, one for cop, and for multiple numbers there and here. When the time to claim came, I would simply pick the ones that favor the situation at hand the most and say "welp, that's my breadcrumb guys".

I don't pretend to believe in breadcrumbing here at all with this many experienced players, it's not possible I'm the only one that realizes how easy it is to "breadcrumb" here unless you make it obvious enough that people can notice it and be like "there's no way this

isn't

a breadcrumb, so if you claim anything else it's in fact scummy", but if you do make a breadcrumb that is too obvious/hard to wriggle away from, scum are definitely gonna notice since they know what to look for

Every townie is either a cop or doctor, and then there's a number for the night. You either make a very cryptic crumb here that only you will likely know or your crumb is probably be noticed by scum and they are either gonna kill you or act at night considering your role.

[Shirou]

but yeah

I guess breadcrumbing is simply easier/safer than whatever I proposed...it's just not really "fun"/"novel" and those are the elements I'm focusing more than necessarily "optimal"

well either way I don't plan to check if you guys breadcrumbed multiple times so I'm probably not gonna be believing any breadcrumbs if they aren't very well done.

[Shirou]

okay now for real goodnight

[Shirou]

actually though I am thinking fua's jump in is worse than Ceph's push

I townread Tejate, but I can imagine Ceph being town misfiring on him. I think if that was a T-T spat, fua's play vibes like scum looking for a distraction outside the scrutiny their own slot is receiving, and leveraging Tejate/Ceph to do it

VOTE: fua

Yes, I want a distraction from my own slot, so instead of enlisting my buddies to do something or waiting my turn, I just hop in balls-out into a pre-existing feud right after people express suspicion of me, because I'm eager to get away from the pressure of zero votes. You have solved the case very early into day 1. I'm not sure what you think my level of experience is or how well-versed I am in how to play this game, but this isn't it chief.

so you think of yourself as a relatively experienced/well-versed scum player?

otherwise this post doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Shirou]

I would say I’m not a dumb scum player, yes. I’m also not a dumb town player either.

not being dumb and being well-versed/experience are two

very

different things.

[Shirou]

I think that was very well-implied in the post I made.

I kinda think so as well but I wanted you to confirm your words a second time before progressing

This is your first post in your most recent scum game

You won that game rather smoothly from what I saw in the scum PT (didn't read the actual game a lot besides a bit of your ISO), so I do think you see yourself as "competent enough" or "not dumb" as scum, but it was quite surprising to see the words "well-versed/experienced" from you when you admitted to not only not being very experienced in the scum PT, it was also your

second

scum game

ever

?

so, with that new information to consider, that sarcastic post felt a little bit overdone.

[Shirou]

Pretending to misunderstand or misinterpret my post isn’t really going to get you anywhere, you know.

kkkkkkk

you talk as if that was an actual attempt to attack your slot rather than just me clearing up some stuff before proceeding to the "main dish" (which isn't really a main dish at all, just an interesting observation I stumbled upon).

[Shirou]

You actually did research on me? I’m flattered.

so you've nothing to say in response to what I just posted?

and I dislike doing "research" nowadays, it's just that both you and Tejate are somewhat confusing to read to me.

I feel more confidence in reading veterans somehow than I do in reading newer players. Well, I don't have a lot of confidence in either though.

[Shirou]

I don’t really care because you haven’t made your point yet.

?

okay I'll draw it then.

in this game at the moment we don't know whether you're lying or not since we don't know your alignment.

in the thread I linked, we know for sure you were telling the truth, you had no reason to lie.

In this current game you replied sarcastically to someone basically implying that you were well-versed/experienced as scum so people should hold you up to higher standards.

In the scum PT I linked you to, you admit you aren't very inexperienced and that it's your second scum game ever.

You probably gained a bit more confidence in your scum game from the win in that recent scum game, but your sarcastic reply still feels ?"overdone"? to me in a certain extent?

It's the kind of reply I would expect from someone like Flavor Leaf or so, but not really from a newer player without too much scum experience on their belts.

[Shirou]

If it's still not obvious my point, I do believe "cognitive dissonance" is a scum tell and a very good one while we're at that.

It's not actual IRL "cognitive dissonance" since the tell is to compare someone's opinion from a time where you know they were telling the truth to their opinion in a game you're uncertain of their alignment (and if there's a difference between their views, opinions or mentality, they are more likely than not scum).

However the reason I'm not voting you yet is because I'm not recognizing it at the moment as a "without-a-doubt cognitive dissonance". I do think there's possible explanations for what happened and I'm engaging you in hope of you saying something that can help me either throw away this pet tell or to confirm it as something worthy of a read.

p-edit: gonna reply that in a bit

[Shirou]

I’m modest. Also the scum game win had 8 replace outs (no exaggeration) and the vig killed a confirmed townie.

Exactly, and it's why I thought that even if you had gained some confidence from winning, you wouldn't likely be as confident as you seemed in that other post given town was in quite a mess there.

What Hobbes is implying is that not only did I jump into a conversation out of nowhere (which isn’t true since Ceph explicitly referred to me), but that my solo naked vote on him was scum-indicative and an attempt to turn focus off of my slot.

Also I’m using an alt and wanted to hide my identity there just in case.

So who knows whether I was being honest or not?

heh...

I see how it is

I'll drop the subject then, I'm satisfied with the answer for now.

[Shirou]

hmm

you guys seem to not have liked rajete unvote but I'm boldly gonna unvote anyway for a similar reason.

If I was forced to dayvig someone right now GL would be one of the top contenders due to their entry posts, but at the moment I'm not giving it too much weight (maybe I'll change my mind on this, I'm kinda still mulling over it). So, it's basically a RVS vote and to be fair I want to make a meta of me not participating in RVS/voting for pressure as well, I just couldn't resist voting the hydra at the start to engage them and throwing a vote to GL to catch even if just a little bit of his attention (I want to correctly read you here heh).

UNVOTE:

I kinda want to become someone that rarely throws around his vote, so that when I do finally vote someone it's supposed to be given proper attention. I used to throw around my vote too much before and people would gradually get less interested on my pushes because of that, especially when I would change my mind multiple times midway through the wagon.

also I'm overexplaining to quote this on my future town games. And yes I guess it's kinda LAMIST. And self-aware fua! (wink wink)

[Shirou]

You can expect me to throw my vote around wherever I please.

I don't have a read on you yet but I think I know more or less better than before in how to approach your slot now.

I still don't know how to approach Tejate though, like Cephrir said before, the way he phrases some stuff seems purposeless and trying too hard to come off as "I'm town trying to solve the game", but at the same time I feel that newbie energy from him that tells me it may simply be his personality.

but

@Tejate

, I'm kinda curious, why do you keep saying fua/other people is "tying up" your/Cephrir slots? I tried to but couldn't find any posts that seem like they are trying to "tie up" your slot with another one. Could you perhaps show me some posts that made you think that?

[Shirou]

also fua, do you've any takes on Tejate? You didn't seem to talk too much about him even though he's one of he most popular topics (and I think you gave your take on most other popular topics in the thread).

[Shirou]

oh and for last raichu is one of my favorite pokemons so I ask of you to be town so that I can see your cute avi for longer

please and thank you Tejate

[Shirou]

Tejate how experienced are you in mafia/werewolf outside of this website?

Do you like playing town or scum more?

Do you think you play town or scum better and why?

It may look like empty questions but just like with fua there's a reason I'm asking it, maybe I can explain if I feel satisfied with the replies.

[Shirou]

So my question more explicitly is, do either of you lean more town or scum on the other after that conversation?

I was starting to scum lean fua after that post before they explained it and now I'm back to null, so you could say I improved my opinion on them?

But more importantly than that...I kinda think I got information from that exchange that fua likely wouldn't want me to explain in detail. It isn't game-related but it helps out in the game you could say?

[Shirou]

@Tejate your reply was good, but now let's go to the second phase of it

It may be hard but try to imagine a hypothetical scenario where you're scum and Cephrir is town (regardless of what your actual alignments in this game are).

What do you think you would have done different in your engagements and in your behavior/posts around people opinions on you/Cephrir? Give it a good consideration. If you're experienced enough in scum play there's something you did here that it's not likely you would have done in this hypothetical.

[Shirou]

I feel like the most obvious thing to me, is that I would have been much more likely to engage with that post. If I am scum and already have some eyes on me, it would probably be beneficial to me to say that Ceph's reasons for suspicion are frivolous, and explain why I felt that way. This could easily be taken as pointless TvT arguing, or set up a later push on Ceph.

What was your theory?

Hmm...one more shot. I'll give you one more shot. and a hint.

It's not about what you did to Ceph, it's something about how you behaved to slots around Ceph/you. Do you realize anything new now with this hint when you imagine the hypothetical scenario from early?

[Shirou]

hi

I've no interest whatsoever of getting into this argument that seems to lead nowhere but I just want to state that if anyone pays attention fua is making some rather silly arguments at some points. I don't think it's necessarily alignment indicative, it's not uncommon to find people that will intentionally argue for dumb points just so they can win the discussion especially in a mafia game, but like, I'll publicly give one clear example and only one because I've no interest in starting to argue with fua now that I know they are that kind of person.

This is only

half

of a fua post and there's already a lot to uncover about the "tactic" of:

"pointless/silly arguments that try to appear reasonable just so that the discussion can go longer and force your opponent to either back off or to continuously explain why it's wrong, only for you to keep sending them nonstop since it's so easy to make up bullshit and exhaust your enemy".

I hate this "tactic" that people even IRL often do unconsciously because of their personality, so I can't help but be a bit mean here. It's like having a discussion that isn't an actual discussion.

In the same post you say that Ceph is misguided in his targeting of Tejate and simultaneously saying that I’m leveraging the two of them to escape pressure. How is it wrong to categorize this as tying them together

Tying up together slots means you're tying one of the reads to one slot to another one, directly. Like "if Tejate is town, Ceph is town".

What GuiltyLion did was to

INDIVIDUALLY

find reasons to town lean Tejate and

entertain

a town!Ceph scenario. It's two separate reads, the unique connection is that it's individual reads that mostly take posts about each other as it's source, but that's not "tying up" slots together. It's having two individual reads on Tejate and Ceph based on their exchanges.

and why do you say that I was trying to start dueling wagons with a single naked vote?

You need to intentionally play dumb to not believe that even a single naked vote on someone that was under suspicious by quite a few people wasn't gonna contribute to perhaps creating a wagon which would further push Ceph to either push Tejate more or to eventually push someone as a reaction (it's normal to begin pushing people back when you're being wagoned regardless of alignment).

[Shirou]

"Why did you write the above?"

I simply hate that kind of tactic really

like, if you're in a discussion actually try to discuss with good arguments rather than throw shit in the wall/missrep to exhaust the people arguing or reading, regardless of your alignment (I guess it's more forgivable if someone only does it as scum but most that do it as scum equally do it as town as well?).

It's an actual shame I'm town here so I need to confess it's kinda NAI behavior to a lot of people, because if I was scum I would certainly be motivated to keep attacking the inconsistencies in those arguments and ride off an easy scum lean for the rest of the game.

Now I need to get back to Tejate I guess.

[Shirou]

I feel like the most obvious thing to me, is that I would have been much more likely to engage with that post. If I am scum and already have some eyes on me, it would probably be beneficial to me to say that Ceph's reasons for suspicion are frivolous, and explain why I felt that way. This could easily be taken as pointless TvT arguing, or set up a later push on Ceph.

What was your theory?

Hmm...one more shot. I'll give you one more shot. and a hint.

It's not about what you did to Ceph, it's something about how you behaved to slots around Ceph/you. Do you realize anything new now with this hint when you imagine the hypothetical scenario from early?

To be honest, I'm not really sure what you're getting at. It's less difficult for me to go in and out of scum/town mindset, than it is for me to try and emulate the sorts of feelings I was having around that time. Is it about my confused reaction to fua's vote?

Hm no

Tejate, if you were scum and Cephrir town, there would be no good reason to be so worried about your slots being "tied up" together unless you were faking believing that you were being tied up together in the first place and called attention to that in hopes of tying up both your slots together yourself, which would be kinda...a bit too advanced to what I'm expecting of a new player scum game (no offense intended).

Therefore you either are simply confused town worried about something that wasn't quite happening, or...you're inexperienced scum that didn't know what to talk about, and didn't realize how beneficial it would be for you to tie your slot to Cephrir, so that if you're scum and he's town, you can drag him down with you if the time comes. Creating fake associatives (to both hide the real partners and to miseliminate townies even after your death) is an important part of good scum play.

If you had at any point replied to me "If I was scum and Cephrir town, there would be no reason to dispel the associations people were making between Cephrir/my slot, since it would be beneficial to me", I was kinda ready to townbin your slot as long as Ceph didn't flip scum later on.

However, it seems that by your reply you didn't realize that, and so it seems it's still plausible you are scum making sub-optimal plays like trying to dispel associatives with a potential townie. Of course, it can also be the case that You/Ceph are partners and all this thought exercise was a waste of time, but still.

[Shirou]

Okay then. I’ll only voice my thoughts and opinions when it’s convenient and there’s nothing else going on, then. Have you considered that it’s not a tactic and that I genuinely interpret those posts that way?

Hm..sorry. It's just that there's a personal history about this kind of thing so I guess I get a bit too annoyed when I see it happening.

Hmm, but about the fact it's not a "tactic", I know. that's why I'm writing tactic between quotation marks, and saying that it's also often an unconscious thing people do.

I think I was too mean there on hindsight and I don't want you to stop voicing your thoughts or anything, but...If I do ever avoid engaging you in a discussion it's probably not very alignment related, it would simply be because it would likely be too exhausting/long-winded.

I don't think you should stop playing the game whatever way you want to (or naturally feel inclined to play) due to my opinion on this matter really.

[Shirou]

I also don't think it necessarily wasn't happening, but it does seem like that narrative wasn't really being pushed by multiple people as I probably blindly thought last night. It kinda seems like it was mainly just nQ that was actually leaving a bad taste in my mouth, looking back.

yeah out of the three posts that you quoted only nQ was properly "tying up" you guys, the others were mostly talking around the exchanges you both did, but not tying up your alignments together.

[Shirou]

And yes, that’s AtE. Go ahead and scumread me for it. I love manipulating people’s emotions and coming up with bullshit.

eh I don't really scum read you at all though kkkkk

it was just that I got a bit annoyed, but I'm back to being a calm lake perhaps.

I probably should post rants like that in my private topic (NAI just to make it clear, I've been kinda asking mods to create private topics for me regardless of my alignment, in my last scum game I had one as well but I asked Cakez to not make it public).

[Shirou]

I do partially accept your apology, but I also think it was REALLY uncalled for and felt like a personal insult rather than just commentary on in-game habits. I would be lying if that sort of approach didn’t kind of demotivate me from offering my opinion on matters.

Like. This is literally just how I play.

Sorry again...

If it makes it any better, even though I would probably kinda skim over if I felt like you got in a heated discussion that you would simply be acting too defensively, I would still nonetheless pay attention later on to your reads and the justification for that. Just not while you were in that heated arguing phase.

I don't want to mention the name of that player, but there's a rather popular player that...kinda...plays like that as well, and I do really respect them and would be very much inclined to sheep them if they felt confident in a scum read/town read, it's just that when they get into that kind of argument, I know I'll end up exhausting if I try to follow up on it.

I'm kinda having a bad day with my poor gacha luck and other stuff, so a bit of that may have leaked out in that post early, but please don't feel like as if I want you to stop playing or anything, I think I could have phrased that better because my intention was to say "I think fua right now is feeling defensive regardless of alignment and this is likely not a productive discussion, so I recommend we move on and if perhaps that kind of discussion sparks with me as one of the members, don't be weirded out when I don't engage it".

[Shirou]

poor gacha luck

So as I pray, unlimited wallet works.

it's ridiculous!

My account has such poor luck that it feels like the devs are toying with me sometimes...and then as if it's not enough, Norwe always post about his

ridiculous lucky

rolls on discord!

It's...it's decided...I'll ask Norwe to roll for me next time perhaps...

[Shirou]

It's alright. I respect that you apologized. I will say that you almost certainly don't know who I am, but I forgive you for saying it and I can understand where you're coming from. I'm going to take a backseat for now since I've hogged too much of the thread, but thank you for being willing to at least listen.

thanks, I'll also probably take a backseat for a bit now, Tejate/you already answered all the doubts I had about the posted content.

Mafia is kind of like a gacha game, if you think about it.

I just realized that I should one day do a gacha setup where you can roll for players from the forum and gain abilities.

It would be kinda funny to watch.

[Shirou]

Shirou is asking Tejate a lot of leading questions and it all just strikes me as very weird. It ultimately culminates here where he outlines what ostensibly SHOULD have been the pro scum strat. But I don't buy it, I certainly didn't catch onto what Shirou was expecting to hear, and I'd be interested in knowing if anyone else did. Is there anymore clarity in anyone's Tejate read after this - and that question is for Shirou as well? Even if Tejate HAD given that extremely specific answer, I have my doubts that it would have actually helped sort him.

How come you

didn't

get my point in that post to be honest...?

If Tejate had said "I wouldn't have tried to stop people tying up our slots together", I would have throw him a solid town lean as long as Cephrir didn't flip scum at some point. Since he failed to show me he would be aware of the mistake of trying to stop the fake associative as scum, I didn't change my mind on his slot that much after the exchange, still kinda neutral on him.

I explained all of the above on that post itself, I understand how you can disagree with my logic and think it's a stretch or that it doesn't help on anything to you/other players, but I surely can't understand how after reading that post you didn't understand

how

it would have helped

my

read on him at least as you seem to imply?

This feels like you decided you should shade me here so you proceeded to doing it even if the reasoning feels like a bit of a stretch.

I asked some questions, had a reason to ask said questions, and explained my motivation on trying to obtain that reason. How come you think it was

that

weird? I think this isn't the first time you shade one of my posts with some generic words without going too much in-depth about it.

[Shirou]

But like, why would that answer have made you townlean him?

???

I don't think you're paying attention to my posts...like, was it hard to get my logic? I don't think it was and I would like for @everyone to weight on whether they had understood this or not while reading it.

But basically, if he had been aware that dispelling fake associatives is bad as scum if Ceph is town, it means he wouldn't do it if he's scum? and that would mean...he isn't scum here so he's town?

if someone is aware that they shouldn't do something as scum, and they do it anyway in a game, doesn't it obviously mean they are likely town?

If you're attributing his lack of awareness of that strategy to him being newb, why can't he be newb scum?

???

p-edit: huh...okay...but I'm still gonna post the above after writing so much
I'm attributing the lack of awareness of the strategy to him being a newbie, and it's

exactly

because he can be a newb scum that wouldn't realize it's a bad move to stop the fake association with Ceph (in the hypothesis of town!Ceph anyway) that I'm not town leaning him?

Like, just now you asked me first why would I town lean him if he was more experienced/self-aware, and right after you ask why I'm not considering he can be newbie scum? When all my questions were trying to confirm if he can be newb scum or not?

???

Are you truly trying to understand my posts? doesn't feel like it.

[Shirou]

hm...the p-edit went to the wrong place

[Shirou]

All I have to add is that if Shirou is scum, he's doing a damn good job at it.

Spoiler:

(no this isn't supposed to go into the scum PT. Did I bait anyone into believing for some seconds that this was the rumored urban legend of a "slip"?)

[Shirou]

After this, Ceph proceeds to pocket Shirou with 207 and 223.

I feel that this part of the post is again a stretch (I'm not pocketed by Ceph at all), but the rest of the post feels okay

[Shirou]

All I have to add is that if Shirou is scum, he's doing a damn good job at it.

Spoiler:

(no this isn't supposed to go into the scum PT. Did I bait anyone into believing for some seconds that this was the rumored urban legend of a "slip"?)

So who are we killing tonight Shirou?

On a more serious note, do you have any ideas for wagons you'd like to hop on/start right now? I know we're in no rush, but it might be good to start focusing our primary discussions on a few people early on.

Tejate after my failure in my pet town lean on you I find myself trying to believe the scummy things I'm seeing are mostly your personality/you being a newbie but...

why do you keep being so...passive if you're set on wanting the gamestate to change?

Let's take this very quoted post as an example. Why ask me about who I want to start a discussion on rather than trying to convince me on your scum reads since I'm clearly intentionally being fencesitty due to my "I'm not in a rush/I only want to vote confident reads" mentality? You've been reading my posts, you should know I'm not very set on anyone. There isn't much more for me to discuss other than what I already posted, so wouldn't a more proactive engagement on your part be more helpful towards trying to complete your goals? (it's not actually gonna work either way but still)

[Shirou]

I mean, I posted my own reads and received pretty much no indication that anyone found them very interesting. So far they've remained largely unchanged, so effectively I have already listed the people I would be most likely to vote for currently (mostly redtea and numberQ), and described why I think they'd be decent wagons. I'm not really seeing a lot of other players posting their lists, and given you are one of my town-leans I would like to hear from you in particular.

I don't think it would just be helpful for deciding on a wagon, but helpful for the game state as a whole if the largely townread and largely scumread players posted their reads. Do you take issue with my reasoning here?

Now that you explained it, it sounds better. It's just that I feel a bit weirded out by the way you phrase some stuff, but it's probably NAI and just your personality...it's what I want to believe for now at least.

I also kinda liked one of your recent posts but not telling you why and which yet to see if you end up doing more of that good stuff.

Well but to reply your question...wagons to hop on you say?

I'm not confident enough yet to vote anyone, but if I was

forced

to choose someone right now, it may be numberQ. No one else posts caught & held much of my attention.

[Shirou]

because from my pov

it feels like number is doing the like frog in boiling water heating it up slowly to end up on a shirou vote because of all the commentary/focus, it's not the only thing but it feels apparent 2 me

and then it's just like swerving around to jump onto someone else and crashing through the setup

If he's doing that, he's ignoring a growing +town sentiment around Shirou and that kinda sounds counter productive.

I agree it's counter productive but I don't think scum is gonna always follow consensus on every read, especially on the town reads that have less impact than the counterpart.

He's scum reading a consensus suspect for example. Not that this fact by itself means anything.

[Shirou]

552 also makes me feel better about calling Tejate town - this seems like a really likely way for relatively new town to feel about Shirou's play and it's something I think relatively new scum wouldn't think to say.

don't reveal my pet reasons to town lean him like that...it was supposed to be a secret until later on...

[Shirou]

losing to scum!tejate sounds kinda funny

I would like to actually bring up another topic I have not seen much discussion on outside of the early posts, since it seems like discussion has mainly been focusing on a handful of specific players and their alignments.

Do you guys think that it would be to our benefit to discuss mechanics? I have some thoughts, but I'm not entirely sure if it's to town's benefit for me to share them. Don't really want to give scum hints on how to play the setup. Better yet, have any of you played this setup before?

Tejate in my opinion from town's perspective this game isn't very mech-heavy, there's not a lot for townies to do here other than if cop claim result in the day after action, and doctors of night-X claim if there's a no kill situation that same night.

Dunno who has already played this before or not. Too lazy to find out through the wiki.

[Shirou]

innos when relevant

?

I think that cops should always claim results here, even if it's only an inno?

Everyone is 1-shot so we aren't losing anything other than "hiding them from scum kills", but like, I don't want to write a wallpost here but basically it's not really that much of an issue even if they kill the inno given it would likely be someone that is a former suspect?

Forcing an inno to get nightkilled sounds way better to me than risking someone been cleared before but no one knowing it because the cop died at a night later before saying it.

I guess we can "crumb results" but...I don't know. I think it's obvious by now but I'm not a fan of crumbing, to the point I don't bother looking for crumbs even when I'm scum.

[Shirou]

eh

if I was scum I would love that opinion of yours

being able to claim later on "oh btw I'm cop and my inno is a dead guy from ages ago" is too much of a convenient fakeclaim here

There's barely any difference between claiming innos as soon as day start, and "waiting" to claim innos for town (when you consider the risk of the cop dying without ever saying someone was cleared, in fact it sounds like a swingy strategy)

However there certainly is a lot of benefit for scum to be able to hold on claiming until later. You want to make scum claim as soon as possible in this setup in my opinion. If you leave it all for when we massclaim, scum can fakeclaim whatever is the most convenient to counter our results by then.

This is probably a take we should give our opinions on. Everyone should comment on whether they are in favor or against cops claiming the innos as soon as day start.

I'm in

favor

. I want to lock scum to their claims as soon as humanly possible.

[Shirou]

Okay I'll trust scum is probably good enough to have noticed this already so I'll explain a bit more my reasoning

Doctors are the easiest fakeclaim here. You can say you acted on a random night early on and there's no consequences to it.

If you claim cop as scum as you're opening a day, you *need* to either innocent someone alive, or fake a guilty on someone (which is basically a 1v1 trade), or to claim an inno on a partner which can lead to both you and the partner being found guilty at once later on.

There's a 66% chance, in other words it's more likely than not likely, that only one or zero of the scum can claim doctor without we knowing there's confirmed scum in that given pool on massclaim. So some of them likely need to claim cop.

Therefore, we should make it as risky as possible for they to claim cop, and the way we do that is

everyone agreeing that cops need to claim any results right on day start.

[Shirou]

Correct Tejate, I didn't want to explain *that* point as well but yes.

If we make the cops claim riskier, they need to choose between taking that extra risk/penalty to try rounding up to 6-7 or to give us the information that there's at least 2 confirmed scums in a given role pool (likely doctor if it ever happens).

It's a lot less about "oh but what if the cop dies and etc" and a lot more "we should force scum to take as much penalties/risk as possible for their fakeclaims"

p-edit: kkkkkk lol, fua is simply trolling I believe, don't worry ceph.

[Shirou]

but yeah just in case someone takes it seriously

the plan isn't to claim cop or doctor today

it's to claim results as a cop after the night you acted on, so if you're a night-1 cop for example, you claim your result [guilty/inno] on the start of D2.

[Shirou]

Oh no, I'm actually a cop. I just want to take away claim space.

...

[Shirou]

I don't know what to say in reply to that I guess

I tried covering for you but it doesn't seem like you want the cover

[Shirou]

fua I kinda think what you're suggesting right now isn't a good idea but I'm not sure I should explain why because it's gonna make our life more complicated later

[Shirou]

the reason we don't massclaim is that scum will shoot all the cops >__>

as it turns out, one-shot cop is a drastically, drastically stronger role than one-shot doctor.

yeah this is part of the reason.

you don't want mafia to kill the cops before they can have a result.

1-shot cop is quite a strong role.

[Shirou]

We're gonna get one confirmed scum in a pool either way later on.

There's only cons for doing all the claims right now, even if you think we could start "scum hunting" in that pool early, there's other stuff to take into account.

What I suggested early on has all the pros you want of claiming right now but none of the cons I think.

[Shirou]

The advantage from forcing scum to claim cop immediately isn't as high as I think you're making it out to be. They'll just... do it. I don't really object to it as a plan but it's not exactly game-breaking or close to it.

Implosion do you consider yourself a mech person?

What do you mean scum risking their neck for their partners or giving us a free extra inno isn't important?

hello...?

[Shirou]

@fua

You aren't confirmed but I see where you're going/your motivation for doing it I guess.

Who did scum read fua again? GL? I wonder what their opinion on this is.

[Shirou]

Cops who claim with a useful inno will, inevitably, get towncred. Scum can claim cop with a useful inno for that reason; hell, they might want to even without any plan of any sort that we're implementing. They can also claim a result on someone who died that day, still. A cop claiming a long-dead inno is going to be viewed as scummy, and so scum would want to avoid that anyway.

I think perhaps I simply seem to put a lot more value on an inno than you.

To me the hardest situation as scum isn't one where you're being suspected, it's one where everyone else is either confirmed or townier than you. I think it's more reliable to get to that point with my proposition, but I guess I can see how you personally view it now...? kinda.

[Shirou]

I'm a bit worried that I'm starting to town lean fua now due to that even if I know they seem to have intentionally said it for that reason (so I would be basically doing exactly what they want which is a bit uncomfortable?), but all in all, considering some other details and how this can develop, for now I think it's probably for the best for me to personally town-bin fua (not necessarily an universal recommendation). We can cross certain bridges when we get there I suppose.

[Shirou]

Have you never put your ducks in a row and singled out potential miselims to push as scum? By taking one of those away and putting that fat towncred on myself I remove some of their power and give town time to talk about the events preceding my alignment and role reveal.

What towncred are you getting though? That's my point.

I did think it's more likely than not a town thing to do. So it worked on me at least.

My unique worry is that...well, I'll not even mention it now when mentioning it atm is sub-optimal.

Then yeah, for now it worked on me I think.

We can cross certain bridges if we do ever get there².

[Shirou]

so...I'll write off fua as a town read for now I guess?

that's my first "proper" read in this game I suppose

[Shirou]

this is one read I can be wrong about, I'm bad with reading newbies, but I also think Tejate is probably more likely than not town.

Even if he isn't conscious of it, I feel like it would be quite weird for scum!Teijate to be so worried later about people "tying up" his slot to Ceph unless they are partners...and if Ceph ever flips red, well,

we can cross that bridge if we do ever get there³.

Lastly, his post "if Shirou is scum he's surely doing a good damn fine job at it" seems rather unusual/difficult to come up with for newbie scum. It may be a single post but it's the kind of person/player I'm. I feel better about reads surrounding a few posts rather than taking the entire ISO of someone into consideration.

p-edit: @Teijate I can tell fua is likely ballsy, but my opinion that this is the correct course of action to do at the moment remains.

[Shirou]

I'll hold back

the part of my consciousness that wants to say the awkwardness on Tejate's posts is scummy.

I'll win

this war within.

[Shirou]

GuiltyLion (2):

Shirou

, fua

Not Voting (5):

imaginality, morph the cat, redtea, Tejate Raichu, Ydrasse

With 13 alive, it's 7 to eliminate.

I unvoted in 355

[Shirou]

I would be fine with one of numberQ/imaginality/redtea dying I think

the latter two don't have many posts but what they posted hasn't impressed me

[Shirou]

I think there's at least one scum active in thread but I don't know who they could be yet so I'm not gonna make random guesses

I don't particularly have confidence of any of the above slots mentioned in my previous post being more than very slightly more likely to flip scum than random though, so I'm still not gonna vote them yet, but if deadline was tomorrow I would be forced to vote one of those.

That's it for "scum reads" from me right now. I would also personally give NSG more time before pressuring her.

[Shirou]

i would like to get content out of her before we go thinking about ending the day, at least

doesn't feel like we're ending today anytime soon though?

It's only been 48 hours.

[Shirou]

Ah, also I guess unless they're scum together (which wouldn't be that weird considering their openings), I should probably trust Morph read on Amazon for now. Even if they were wrong on it at the moment, as long as they are alive they will likely correctly sort out Amazon correctly. If they die...well, we can cross that bridge when we get there.

[Shirou]

correctly sort out Amazon correctly

correctly sort out Amazon in the end.*

[Shirou]

Ah, also I guess unless they're scum together (which wouldn't be that weird considering their openings), I should probably trust Morph read on Amazon for now. Even if they were wrong on it at the moment, as long as they are alive they will likely correctly sort out Amazon correctly. If they die...well, we can cross that bridge when we get there.

For what it's worth, it's a very high confidence read for us. I'll be very surprised if they leave our "Utterly Town, never elim this" pile. We'd love to have 4 more reads of that strength, or even four more in that plus the second tier combined before the day ends.

fua's headed in that direction.

if you're that confident about it I'm happy there's one less slot to sort, but on hindsight it kinda also means if they are proved to be scum later on, we probably should scum read you for having the complete opposite of a good read on them.

[Shirou]

Ah, also I guess unless they're scum together (which wouldn't be that weird considering their openings), I should probably trust Morph read on Amazon for now. Even if they were wrong on it at the moment, as long as they are alive they will likely correctly sort out Amazon correctly. If they die...well, we can cross that bridge when we get there.

For what it's worth, it's a very high confidence read for us. I'll be very surprised if they leave our "Utterly Town, never elim this" pile. We'd love to have 4 more reads of that strength, or even four more in that plus the second tier combined before the day ends.

fua's headed in that direction.

if you're that confident about it I'm happy there's one less slot to sort, but on hindsight it kinda also means if they are proved to be scum later on, we probably should scum read you for having the complete opposite of a good read on them.

You'll be happy to know I'm not scum and the point is that there's indeed one less slot to sort.

Eh...this isn-...nvm.

[Shirou]

I'm gonna agree a bit with Ceph here that I was kinda expecting spicier stuff from Amazon/Morph, but a good part of their play especially Amazon's has been dancing around Morph. It's understandable but a bit underwhelming for the rest of us.

However, in regards to Morph, the reason I'm not that bothered by it yet is because I feel that their content being somewhat underwhelming is a

consequence

of the game's content itself being kinda underwhelming so far. Doesn't really feel like it's already a 30 page game even though it is.

[Shirou]

I can't go in-depth on why but I'm actually reconsidering Tejate at the moment.

He's back to the "I want to see more from" pool except this time I think I can sort him better than the almost coin-flip read I had on him up to now (part of me before thinking he was towny for X and the other one thinking he was scummy for Y).

[Shirou]

I feel bad about even entertaining scum!ydrasse

she defended me and all...

hm, am I too soft? maybe.

[Shirou]

I feel bad about even entertaining scum!ydrasse

she defended me and all...

hm, am I too soft? maybe.

i would mercilessly pocket you with sweet nothings and smile all the while

I see

so this is what being pocketed potentially feels like hm, it's been awhile.

it's making me remember my newbie game against scum!GL where I had to doublecheck the mod revealing he was scum.

[Shirou]

ydrasse the answer is very very probably not, but just to confirm, do you know anything about my meta or etc? I don't think we've played together before for instance.

[Shirou]

I haven't knowingly played with NSG in ages. I remember her playing in a game or two or two I modded in the 2017-2018 timeframe.

Does anyone know: Is her activity here typical? Does she usually not post much on weekends? Is there a timeframe during days when she's more active? I know she's in the UK. Maybe she works during the day.

I don't know information that specific about her schedule but she does have a more irregular sort of activity recently as far as I know compared to 2017~2018. I haven't kept up with her games recently but someone mentioned her slot being miseliminated in a not distant time frame from now and also one of the last games I played with her, her slot was under a lot of fire for not being "very active" from the start, but she was town anyway.

I think it's hard for her to have the same activity levels she had back in 2017~2018 nowadays, so some of the "tells" people use based on her activity aren't very accurate/updated, but at the same time if at some point considerably later on her contributions towards solving the game are still too lackluster, she's probably scum in my opinion yes.

My personal philosophy when playing with NSG is kinda...just leave her be/let her do her own thing for awhile. Then afterwards you stop and take a good look on what she did.

[Shirou]

Only to people considering wagoning NSG atm

Spoiler:

I do think NSG can easily be scum here but I'm really against any wagons on her at least for now. I would even say optimally you don't want to wagon NSG D1 at all but that's up to discussion.

I don't want to defend her too hard if unnecessary though because...multiple reasons...but I think a NSG miselimination shouldn't ever happen if avoidable, because once she gets her solves going, she often becomes kind of an unconfirmed Innocent Child in the game, which either forces scum to kill her (and wink wink we've lots of doctors here) or to play the game as if there's one less miselimination possible, since if you try to miseliminate town!NSG when she's obvtown, it's almost guaranteed to backfire.

In this setup where we have both doctors to protect obvious night kill targets,

and

cops that will clear some suspicious slots, having slots like her alive for as long as possible is kinda "the town dream". So, I don't think I'm voting NSG D1 here ever except if I feel she's almost confirmed scum.

[Shirou]

*holds out hand*

we can dance if you want :3

unfortunately I think if we were to dance it would make me a bit too dizzy to think with a clear head about you...

ydrasse the answer is very very probably not, but just to confirm, do you know anything about my meta or etc? I don't think we've played together before for instance.

i’ve only seen you in team mafia i think (?) but i wasn’t paying a lot of attention to that game

I see

who would you say are the player(s) here that read you the best? It's fine to mention multiple people.

and out of those people here that you feel to be decent at reading you, do you think any of them are

truly

good at it?

[Shirou]

Hence my not going out of my way to play open games. I'm a predominantly reads-based player and I like the mystery and creativity of closed theme setups. Until the mechanics start to matter to me, my reads aren't going be heavily affected by mechanics.

Hm, I'm the opposite

My favorite games are the ones where it's both an open and theme game.

Open setups are fine but most of them are a bit too..."standard" to have any meaningful deep discussions about "plans". Rolling scum on those are quite fun as well, I always try to come up with some silly plans although it doesn't always works.

[Shirou]

@mod I'm gonna be in V/LA on sundays

[Shirou]

I'm not that willing to vote redtea right now anymore and if everyone accepts Morph hiding their meta tells I hope I can stay quiet on the reasons for this too (although I'm not sure it's a "correct meta tell" but I don't want to explain what about their posts I'm reading them off since I don't think we're gonna get a lot of content from them, so this is the unique way I found of seemingly reading their slot properly).

I'm not town leaning the slot but I don't think their content are as bad as their entrance.

[Shirou]

i am cute and charismatic in every game i play, ever, even if it's not appreciated

who would you say are the player(s) here that read you the best? It's fine to mention multiple people.

and out of those people here that you feel to be decent at reading you, do you think any of them are truly good at it?

[Shirou]

I think I'm starting to see scum

maybe

[Shirou]

GuiltyLion, I know you said you don't "need to explain since it's a consensus read", but can you go a bit in-depth on your town read on me?

also what did you mean by this early on:

aaaaahhh Fumuki eh, if you are scum you definitely shouldn't have told me that

what's your opinion of my scum game?

[Shirou]

Prodding northsidegal.

Spoiler:

[Shirou]

I can't go in-depth on why but I'm actually reconsidering Tejate at the moment.

He's back to the "I want to see more from" pool except this time I think I can sort him better than the almost coin-flip read I had on him up to now (part of me before thinking he was towny for X and the other one thinking he was scummy for Y).

I see he's made a dozen or so posts since then. Are you still mid-reconsideration or have you come to a conclusion (for now)?

still reconsidering

@ydrasse I see

I think you're more likely town than not at the moment as long as you aren't partners with a certain few people that could perhaps unconsciously pressure you to try a bit harder than normal in this game.

[Shirou]

wouldn’t work on me

whenever i’m town and pressured i spit in the faces of the people who do it and tell them to kill me knowing it’ll make them look bad later

I meant the pressure case if you were scum, and it wouldn't be an intentional/direct thing most likely, just you thinking "my scum team is trying quite hard I probably should try a bit harder than I'm actually motivated to as well".

[Shirou]

ohhhh

well good thing i am free as the wind unchained by any teams

:3

free like the wind huh

Spoiler:

free enough to vote with me in the near future if you don't have anyone you wanna really vote by then?

[Shirou]

If you guys stop forcefully engaging Imaginality I think I can read him over the course of the day

I don't think that asking lots of stuff to low activity posters is something positive in

at least

70 ~ 80% of the cases. What they decide to reply and post if no one is giving them directions in-thread (like with minor questions, etc), is a rather important form of reading them I believe.

[Shirou]

For instance he was about to do something I consider truly AI but people forcing him to engage them ruined it. Of course this is only more or less a suggestion, feel free to disregard it if you want I guess, perhaps I'll end up misreading him either way.

[Shirou]

yeah I guess

maybe nevermind

[Shirou]

okay that was funny fua

GL I'm against voting redtea right now because I think their posts are perhaps in a trajectory to get me to town lean them. they are null town for me at the moment after their last posts which was already an improvement over the null scum read I had on them for their entrance.

[Shirou]

hello i'm back, time to catch up on quite a lot

[Shirou]

did I just get shirou to null me by memeing

yes

but no

however...yes...

but no.

[Shirou]

if it's right I'm kinda slightly proud of it

It's 2022, we need to even sort memes as content perhaps

[Shirou]

i think that it's potentially a game losing mistake that everyone seems to have just casually written off shirou as town.

NOOO DON'T TELL THEM NSG

I was liking being universally town read...

{nsg}
{fua, numberQ, tejate}
{AL, morph}
{imaginality, redtea, GL, ceph, shirou} - null
{ydrasse, implosion}

also maybe shirou should be lower but eh

Oy! null may be fine but I haven't done anything particularly scummy either!

[Shirou]

I would still really like to hear why exactly they believe they can't say their thoughts on my slot yet.

because I'm looking for a specific behavior from you in order to read you, and if I tell you that before I've a read on you, it's basically useless as you could purposefully try to do it even if you're scum. When someone is aware of what and how you're reading them, it's no longer an effective way to do it most of the time.

[Shirou]

by the way I think I've found scum guys



just a bit more and I may perhaps vote and start pushing

also I dislike that redtea wagon. They're more likely than not town to me and even if you can't see their slot that way, they've barely been here. You're mostly voting them for inactivity and not having much content to go off rather than because they've been really "scummy". It feels like almost a RVS wagon...except on page 40-ish.

It's fine I guess if it's just a "oh let's do a random wagon out of some gut suspicious" (literally like a RVS?), but a lurky slot that is a consensus scum read for almost everyone? yeah, doesn't feel a lot like scum to me either even outside of their content itself.

also:

"Oh, they didn't reply our questions, it's scummy" - Morph

Do you really have such a low opinion of scum!Redtea that you think they would be unable to properly answer a simple question like that if they tried?

If they didn't answer it, they probably missed it as either alignment, and in the case they saw it but still didn't reply, I still think even if a bit "anti-town", it's a +town thing for they since scum more often than not like to "reply" to any questions people have as a way of trying to seem transparent.

(disclaimer: I guess the above is me trying to defuse the consensus scum reads on them without burning a potential meta tell, which probably sounds pretentious/false but I do genuinely think I've a good reason to town read them and perhaps I would be fine revealing it later in the day when they've posted more).

[Shirou]

I would still really like to hear why exactly they believe they can't say their thoughts on my slot yet.

because I'm looking for a specific behavior from you in order to read you, and if I tell you that before I've a read on you, it's basically useless as you could purposefully try to do it even if you're scum. When someone is aware of what and how you're reading them, it's no longer an effective way to do it most of the time.

do you have a backup plan?

hmm..?

he already made lots of the kind of posts I'm looking for, it's just that there's some

other

stuff that I can't help but feel like it points to the opposite direction of the behavior I'm focusing right now, so I'm waiting for more and more of that behavior to pile up until I can just shrug off and say "eh, probably hard to believe it's a coincidence or something anymore", and boldly slap a solid-ish read on him.

[Shirou]

morph, what's your opinion on me right now?

[Shirou]

NSG you seemed to have a slightly negative impression of my slot but why is that the case really? I perfectly understand a null read, but I'm curious about what makes you think maybe I do deserve to be a little bit below null?

Also implosion, I kinda knew your "deepscum" thing was probably me (and it makes sense from your pov as either alignment), but like...it's still underwhelming that it doesn't seem to be developing either way since early game.

[Shirou]

hey @GL, did your reads change on anything in the last pages before I posted my defense on redtea which you (and I foresee many others) will probably dislike?

[Shirou]

if redtea is scum I may have fucked up in #1109

but even if they are town I may be suspected over defending them for "no good reason"

however, I do still boldly claim:

it feels like a semi-RVS wagon out of apathy and those almost never flip scum. Neither does getting a wagon on them usually do much more than making people comfortable on sitting in that stagnating wagon.

The easiest course of action would have been trying to start a counter wagon because I sensed you guys would vote redtea before, but unhappily I'm not confident enough yet to push a counterwagon.

[Shirou]

Even if as GL said "it's not like we want the day to end yet with this wagon", wagoning someone and the wagon dissipating without any particular good reason, creates a gamestate where people are more likely to rekindle to the desire to vote that wagon if deadline hits and the game is in apathy, a state which this game has been in for awhile. (I'm kinda sure I did that strategy or something similar at least once as scum as well).

Therefore, even if it's a wagon that will probably evaporate either way as the day goes on, I think it's important to give my take on it so that perhaps I can convince even only one or two of you that redtea wagon isn't very promising as I do personally believe myself at the moment.

I think that's all I could ever hope to say about the redtea wagon/discussion in the last pages. Should go do dailies now.

[Shirou]

actually one last thing

maybe the game where you remember town reading me but getting it wrong is this one implo:

Open 806: JK9++

You were a SK and shot me at night thinking I was town (I was scum and playing very lazily/badly tbh, didn't want to roll scum

at all

there. I was kinda happy you shot me N1).

[Shirou]

Hmm oh my, that game is a bit problematic on hindsight now that I'm rereading it for nostalgia, I was faking (since I was scum) trying to play in a "less scream, more spectating" way, because I had been genuinely interested in playing this way even back then and I would have truly played that way there if I was town... (it was literally my last game before returning last month)

I'm not sure I've any counterpoint to that accusation but...well, in that game my act didn't last too much because as scum it's almost always better to just push slots to throw suspicious under them and make a long list of consensus/common suspects from town's pov. I don't think I've done anything like that in this game yet, and there's definitely other differences of my play here vs there.

There is an unreleased private notes PT on that game (yes, even if I was scum I asked for one to post gifs and spam commentary of the game/theory for self-amusement) where I do explain the fact if I was town I would have started the game similarly, but unhappily like I said it's unreleased, and it would feel unethical to ask for release now just for this counterpoint, but I guess if Cakez ever replaces in this game he can confirm the existence of the notes PT maybe?

[Shirou]

Probably shouldn't have been this nice to implo but I wanted to see if showing him the game he was likely remembering would make him progress either way in his read on me.

I didn't expect to give that much ammunition for paranoia on me though...I thought I was giving a little but eh this is slightly a bit too much.

:thonking:

Okay, maybe I'll argue that it's a "perspective town tell" because since I'm town here, I didn't bother to double-check beforehand whether my play there where I was scum was similar to here, since I thought there would be almost no similarities given that I'm both town and trying out something unusual for me.

Let's go with that yes sir.



(yes I do amuse myself with overly self-aware posts like this, can we also make this part of my meta as either alignment? it's fun)

[Shirou]

who do you think are the scum capitalizing on it and positioning to miselim redtea, and why aren't you pushing them explicitly?

II think you can be one of them, and that's why I'm asking you something, however

you didn't reply my actual question

I asked what did you think about my slot after NSG told you that

BEFORE

I made the redtea posts that I knew you would dislike

You're grandstanding against the wagon but not using the wagon to inform your reads as far as I can tell

No I'm

I'm just not sharing it yet but I'll soon, probably in 2 or 3 IRL days, maybe less

I feel a bit confident that perhaps I already have one of the scum. But can you please reply what I actually asked you about?

[Shirou]

In fact this is almost exactly the same shit you pulled last time I played with you as scum when you tried to defend your buddy shaddowez

That was a horrible scum game of mine GL. In fact, it was my

first

ever scum game, roughly 3 years ago.

You need to decide whether you think I'm some skilled scum player like NSG is saying or if I'm still newbie scum that needs to openly defend their partners like that rather than doing counterwagons, theatre with the other buddy as distraction, or in summary any other more intelligent tactic.

What NSG is telling you about me and how you're implying you're considering my potential scum game are complete opposites.

[Shirou]

This isn't true, I legitimately scumread pretty much every redtea post and when I asked you which you townread and why, you have failed to answer. I'll go into it in more depth later when I'm not working and I have time, but acting like there isn't anything indicative in redteas play is badbadbad

is it going to be "they aren't solving the game so they are scum" style of scum pings/"reasons"?

if it is sorry I don't think that it will work on reading redtea at the moment with the amount of posts they have.

I can be wrong sure, but I don't think I'm though.

[Shirou]

I don't think I've ever defended a partner so adamantly like that ever since that game. I learnt my lesson there. In Baton Pass I tried to town read S_S that was relatively town lean by part of the playerlist, but as soon as I felt suspicious was gathering around them, I bussed him.

In C9+++ when Wicked was about to have a wagon started on them I also had a much better solution: I lead the wagon on him myself, and since I was the one leading it and flaming on it, since I started relatively early on the day (as we are now), I made everyone exhausted of hearing the same old arguments from me, so both my other partner and I later on would go and switch to a "new suspect", and people naturally did switch as well since they were already tired of the wagon on correct scum. Town often have short memory & patience.

This start of a wagon right now has no real threat to lead to a redtea elimination yet. There's no real reason to even defend him like this except for bad WIFOM.

Then I ask you this GL and anyone with similar doubts? Are you taking NSG's words at face value?

If you think I'm that good as scum, surely this is very likely not a defense on a buddy, at most white knight attempt for some town cred later.

Or you didn't really think much of what NSG said before about my skill as scum and you think that this can easily be a me/redtea scum team and I'm simply making a sloppy play here?

[Shirou]

the last time i played with redtea i got them killed because i found them... weird and scummy but they were also doing more in that game tbh than this one

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=88025&user_select%5B%5D=32261

yeah I've already read that game

[Shirou]

0_0

I-I'm not stalking people okay?

It's r-research

[Shirou]

Like, my one game with you I misread you that badly and you want my read to develop on you in the first four RL days of the game? It's evident from that game that it will probably take me more than one RL day to read you accurately.

no actually I'm not asking you to read me accurately or to have a solid read at all

I just wanted to see you going...dunno, discussing with NSG for example that has similar thoughts about how you two should interpret some of my posts or so?

I don't mind if the best you've after thinking about them is "eh null", but I was perhaps just interested to see the thought process behind sorting it into null if you had any I guess?

to be honest partially I'm just poking you to see what you've to say as well, I don't feel strongly about your slot in either way. I thought maybe you could spew out something interesting upon me linking that game.

[Shirou]

also I dislike that redtea wagon. They're more likely than not town to me and even if you can't see their slot that way, they've barely been here. You're mostly voting them for inactivity and not having much content to go off rather than because they've been really "scummy". It feels like almost a RVS wagon...except on page 40-ish.

It's fine I guess if it's just a "oh let's do a random wagon out of some gut suspicious" (literally like a RVS?), but a lurky slot that is a consensus scum read for almost everyone? yeah, doesn't feel a lot like scum to me either even outside of their content itself.

I am firmly in the camp that the fact there have been no real wagons is Bad For This Town and will make it harder to get better reads as this game moves forward, and will also likely contribute to decay of morale in the long term (and the short term potentially).

I personally still have redtea as null atm.

eh

maybe we can talk more about this later

I want to see what GL and some other slots have to say about what I said first

[Shirou]

...

fua I'm kinda unhappy

I feel like you stole my thunder now

[Shirou]

I know it's just my fault for delaying it so much but...

I really think imaginality is scum and I was planning to get people to stop having paranoia with me by leading his elimination today...

[Shirou]

Oh well, I still have one more hot take on a true secret suspect that no one is gunning a lot for at the moment, but I've more confidence on Imaginality I think, so I may only talk about this other scum read later

[Shirou]

implosion finally I've liked one of your posts

you're right about the observation about Imaginality's in that Guardian game vs here.

However, it's not just an observation you can find in the Guardian game. At least in the 3 more recent scum games from Imaginality, he felt the same way he has here.

I would rather not go too in-depth about what I noticed for future games sake but I guess I can if it's necessary, either way, the point is that Imaginality's play here seems to resemble a lot more his more recent scum games rather than town games.

If I had to summarize, I would say that town!Imaginality likes to get right into engaging people, pushing and sorting slots, but scum!Imaginality likes to explain his arguments and thought process to the audience (in this case, the town), to appear as someone that has been "busy" solving the game.

To me, imaginality here seems more worried and focused on trying to explain his thought processes and voice all his reads and suspicious than he is in focusing in a few slots that worry him the most. Even when he does focus on certain slots like for example the most recent "case" on implosion, it always feels like he's trying to justify his read on implosion than he is trying to push and engage implosion to clear his doubts about the slot.

[Shirou]

Oh well, I still have one more hot take on a true secret suspect that no one is gunning a lot for at the moment, but I've more confidence on Imaginality I think, so I may only talk about this other scum read later

what's with the random holding stuff back lol

like what's the purpose

I'm waiting them to just post once more to clear a doubt about something!

after that I'll say it

[Shirou]

It's a hard slot to solve so I need all the best reactions I can get from them or so I guess

it's kinda early I guess but I see a good amount of associatives between this other scum read and imaginality as well

I'm kinda happy with either of their eliminations but I would rather get Imaginality first

[Shirou]

I think I've also finally got Ceph to get a bit above null with two of their recent posts

p-edit: that feels like a scum claim sorry if I'm wrong imaginality but wait a min

[Shirou]

nvm sorry

ongoing game

can't talk about it yet but I don't think imaginality would react in that defeatist way so fast upon people trying to eliminate his slot.

[Shirou]

This is kinda in fact common behavior though. Town generally doesn't act in so resigned about their own elimination this fast. I think that's still +scum points for imaginality but...it honestly does feel kinda too easy.

[Shirou]

If I had to summarize, I would say that town!Imaginality likes to get right into engaging people, pushing and sorting slots, but scum!Imaginality likes to explain his arguments and thought process to the audience (in this case, the town), to appear as someone that has been "busy" solving the game.

To me, imaginality here seems more worried and focused on trying to explain his thought processes and voice all his reads and suspicious than he is in focusing in a few slots that worry him the most. Even when he does focus on certain slots like for example the most recent "case" on implosion, it always feels like he's trying to justify his read on implosion than he is trying to push and engage implosion to clear his doubts about the slot.

I think your read is more a reflection on me having been time limited lately and also having been mostly scum lately.

Hmm...to be honest it could be

However I kinda waited a lot already and you kept acting the same way so unhappily if I'm wrong I don't think I can get it right now

It takes me a bit long to get confident on something but once I've decided I'm kinda stubborn I guess...

[Shirou]

Yeah, just confirmed this is now E-2

VOTE: Imaginality

[Shirou]

Okay but there's ydrasse, implosion and Ceph voting you Imaginality

Those are almost all your top suspects if I remember right, no? Not to mention you didn't seem to like fua very much either.

So...how come when all your top suspects begin piling up on you, your reaction is to just imply "I'm kinda fine with my elimination as long as we get the most information out of it possible" rather than engage me (one of your top town reads) on why I shouldn't vote with them or something...?

Like, even from a non-meta perspective it feels more like a overwhelmed scum reaction rather than a townie that should be very frustrated and very suspicious of this sudden switch/pile-up on you?

Your idea of "I recognize suspicious on my slot is reasonable" is...very reasonable indeed. However, the issue is that very rarely townies are reasonable. Even if they deserve the pressure and votes, more often than not they get frustrated by it. If you were town here and truly thought this way, you would be kinda the exception rather than the rule of how most people react.

[Shirou]

Oh well, I still have one more hot take on a true secret suspect that no one is gunning a lot for at the moment, but I've more confidence on Imaginality I think, so I may only talk about this other scum read later

what's with the random holding stuff back lol

like what's the purpose

NSG are you keeping up with the thread or so without talking?

[Shirou]

Hm

I kinda don't feel like playing the game now even if those are the course of events that I wanted to happen

huh

[Shirou]

It was my pet wagon...

mine...

[Shirou]

Do you glean anything from this information?

yes, whether he's scum or not when he's my top suspect atm

And what do you gain information wise if he flips mafia?

that I probably already have one of his buddies.

[Shirou]

I don't know what you want me to say Tejate...I've spent a lot of time trying to sort slots here and in the background and from that I got that Imaginality is probably scum and partners with a certain other slot I'll comment on soon

like, if he flips town that means I was wrong and need to reconsider stuff, but why would I begin reconsidering stuff before I'm proven wrong? feels like a potential waste of time. If you want me to say who would be other slots I may look into closer if Imaginality flipped town, perhaps [you/NQ/GL], but I'm not 100% sure on that.

[Shirou]

and yeah tejate, contrary to popular opinion I think you're more likely scum than town in a vacuum (now I'm done reconsidering your slot), but...I don't feel a lot of association between you/imag so I think I can perhaps just be misreading you at the moment since my most confident scum read is Imaginality.

If you want the reasons why I think that...well, it's stuff exactly like your last post. It feels like you're actually contributing in something but I don't feel you actually are. It feels like fluff dressed up as content and genuine eagerness to solve the game.

How many times have you said "now I need to think about my read on hydra/NSG" in your ISO as well? I'm plenty sure it's

multiple

times. I wouldn't be surprised if it was close to a dozen times by now, but you didn't really seem to follow up much on that at all. Almost as if your intention on saying it, and posting stuff like your last post as well, is to tell us "look I'm solving" more than...actually solve the game?

I think town!you would be eager to get down into engaging your suspects/pushing them/trying to actively convince people of your cases, but here you seem more like a spectator that wants to blend-in amidst the crowd.

It feels like you're playing a supporting character role when I do think you would have what it takes to be in the main cast, I guess.

[Shirou]

okie now that feels like a weird post from redtea

from one/two liners to wallposting redtea?

what happened there? why did you feel like doing a huge post rather than going through the emotions which I feel is your usual modus operandi?

[Shirou]

I think in fact if Imaginality was to flip town I would be pretty interested in a Tejate flip



maybe it would be my top choice but I don't know, talking too much about a hypothetical where your main suspect flips town is never a good thing to do.

I feel good about my actual vote and I think there's a bigger chance of me misreading Tejate than me misreading Imaginality right now.

[Shirou]

My top suspect (nQ) hasn't been engaging too much with the conversation as of currently, and as such it makes it difficult to say anything more than what I have already said and argued for

your top suspect may be NQ but there's other slots you've doubts towards no?

If your NQ push wasn't giving you results, I think you would still try to poke other people. You're unfamiliar with the concept of hydras, but unfamiliar...how? You never played with them but what is the difficulty on getting started on them? If you've any issues, you could have talked about it especially since you seem to want to be so transparent, you could have questioned the hydras about your doubts in how in synch their reads were, etc.

It's not that the stuff you're saying is unreasonable, it's just that they gradually feel like some sort of...I don't know, excuses?

- "Hey Tejate, who are you gunning for?"

- "Oh it's NQ, but no one seems very interested and he's away so...I'm just here talking to people as if I was some kind of mediator/support rather than a player".

- "Hey Tejate, how are your hydra reads?"

- "I'm unfamiliar with them...but I'm not engaging them a lot to clear my doubts neither asking for advice in how to approach it from other players...I'll get to it at some point"

I don't feel like you're very

eager

to find scum Tejate. It essentially boils down to that I guess, I would think you would be more proactive in all of the stated points but perhaps I can be misjudging your profile as a player so yeah. It's one of the reason I'm not pursuing you right now. I feel the potential to be wrong on this read is waving to me, and some of your carefree posts like "if shirou is scum they are doing a great job at it" do tonally ping me as town.

p-edit: will get to that

[Shirou]

I would also like to clarify something of my playstyle for you, something that I really have no reason to lie about here. I am of the opinion that survival as scum is a bit overrated. Don't get me wrong, on average it massively increases your chances of winning, but it's also not necessary. Town's goal isn't just "kill all scum" and mafia's goal isn't just "achieve parity". Town's goal is to solve who scum is, mafia's is to prevent town from solving until it's already too late.

While yes, I would certainly be excited about flipping a scum today, I would also like the potential information that comes with such a flip. Again, I am not opposed to joining the imaginality wagon since my current one is dead in the water.

survival as scum overrated...?

isn't scum objective in fact just survive? They don't need to necessarily deceive town at all or prevent them from solving. There's dozens and dozens of games being won every year by town eating each other. Scum objective is primarily to survive so that they can reach majority as fast as possible. Town goal is to kill scum period, "solving" scum is just one the processes of which we get to kill, but we also often get one free scum kill from mech stuff like cops and etc? That has nothing to do with "solving"?

I don't get that perspective at all Tejate, it feels hard to believe you genuinely think that even if you say you've no reason to lie about it.

I don't think you're completely lying but if you're scum I think you're telling a half-truth. The best kind of lie is when you mix some lies with some partial truth. I think you do genuinely believe in "what information do we gain from X's flip?", but I don't think when you would get to playing as town, finding scum would feel like as much of a secondary objective to you over "gaining information", "studying wagons options" and etc like in this game. It feels overdone to me in your posts here.

I think that was all I could hope to say about my read in you since both you and some other people had interest on it. That's my conclusion from those 5 days or observing you or so.

[Shirou]

bah

it's childish but I can't help but feel a bit bummed out that the imaginality wagon happened before I could be the first one on it

so nvm I'm just gonna out it because I'm not sure I'll be around tomorrow or so. My other scum read for today is Morph and I'm interested in what their reactions to all that happened since their last post will be. It was getting kinda obvious as well since I had almost everyone else sorted out. I think it's Imaginality/Morph as a team (dunno the third), but it's not just an associative read, I simply do individually find them both suspicious and it also makes sense when I do look at them together.



I wouldn't be against ending the day in a few days, I think around 50 pages is decent for a 13p D1.

In fact I'm in

favor

of not spending all the deadline time because that just gives more possibility of the imaginality's wagon being defused.

[Shirou]

You scumread me individually, but you're not listing me as the possible third scum?

didn't I say it before?

I just don't...vibe a lot with imaginality/you as partners at the moment. Maybe you can end up being the third scum in that scenario but I think worrying about a third scum is a bit too much anyway for D1.

I simply wanted one scum, but the more I thought about imaginality and morph the more they seemed like a team, so I left them like that, as a 2-man guess more or less. Of course one can be scum without the other being and vice-versa.

Anyways, if there's one thing we can at the very least agree on it's that I don't necessarily have an issue with ending the day. We have a lot of content, after all.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: imaginality

just to be clear I wouldn't like it to end

right now

. But I think it may be a really good idea to end the day in 3 ~ 4 days if everyone feels comfortable on the imaginality wagon.

[Shirou]

and the only thing that bugs me about shirou was a feeling of a sense of urgency after nsg signaled the paranoia siren.

you aren't wrong

it was an opportunity to get some reads on people by seeing how they would react to that when most of them had me as a solid town read.

I got a better read on Ceph and Implo because of what NSG did, I think.

However it was also...kinda just coincidence? stuff like redtea wagon and now imaginality wagon began to happen just right after that, and it was stuff I felt like I should react to so I did?

I...wouldn't really feel that much "urgency" just because NSG said that no? Sure maybe people would tone down on their town reads on me, but it wasn't like they would just drop it completely. There was no real "emergency" in my situation, no one other than implo/NSG had any suspicious on me before the recent events like the redtea defense and ?maybe? now my vote on imaginality.

[Shirou]

and the only thing that bugs me about shirou was a feeling of a sense of urgency after nsg signaled the paranoia siren.

you aren't wrong

it was an opportunity to get some reads on people by seeing how they would react to that when most of them had me as a solid town read.

I got a better read on Ceph and Implo because of what NSG did, I think.

However it was also...kinda just coincidence? stuff like redtea wagon and now imaginality wagon began to happen just right after that, and it was stuff I felt like I should react to so I did?

I...wouldn't really feel that much "urgency" just because NSG said that no? Sure maybe people would tone down on their town reads on me, but it wasn't like they would just drop it completely. There was no real "emergency" in my situation, no one other than implo/NSG had any suspicious on me before the recent events like the redtea defense and ?maybe? now my vote on imaginality.

I've filed NSG's caution in the "do some research" to-do list, and in the meanwhile will take your stances with a grain of salt.

that's kinda the towny reply I wanted to see, I feel like even if you both are busy and may not have a lot of time, you like to "do some research", but I didn't feel you immediately thought of it this way, and waited until now when more people have shown suspicious towards me to say it.

In contrast, Ceph immediately called attention to it and even correctly (in my opinion) wondered how anyone could have posted in the game after NSG's cautionary words but not have commented it.

What you're doing here is the correct reaction from a town!morph pov but it feels delayed. Is there any other reason it was delayed?

(@NSG this is what I was waiting them to post, because if I said I did scum read them, of course they would more likely than not also show more paranoia of me as either alignment, however as scum here as long as I didn't suspect them, they would perhaps just keep town reading me in mostly the same way)

[Shirou]

I would have expected town!morph to immediately engage/comment on NSG's talk about my meta, but it didn't happen.

I still like the fact you're reacting now to it though, but to me it's still weird that it was delayed.

[Shirou]

It was the same for GuiltyLion and another reason I decided to poke around his wagon on redtea to see his reaction. He didn't seem to take NSG's cautionary words to heart at first, but then when I began to do other stuff he seemed to use it as a "oh maybe it's true huh" thing.

Basically I think anyone that had a delayed reaction to NSG's post about me should get some scum points.

@Amazonian now that I explained my reasoning, another reason I began "to act" a bit more after NSG said it and some slots had read it. I wanted to see if the ones that didn't have an immediate reaction would still use it as a motive to "revisit" my slot if I acted a bit more suspiciously and boldly, even though at first they didn't seem to take it to heart.

[Shirou]

Can't speak for spay entirely but neuter half returned to work after a 12 day vacation and it's been extremely busy, and has a two year old toddler who is going through a new life stage that needs a lot more attention.

It's just a matter of finding time in the cracks.

Hm, I see...

Maybe I shouldn't include that delayed reaction as part of my read on you then...idk

[Shirou]

It's fine, take your time morph.

Also, gonna drop this brick here before leaving.

[] - town read
[Amazonian*, fua**, Ydrasse] - town lean
[redtea¹, Implosion, Ceph, NSG] - null town
[NQ] - null
[Tejate, GL] - null scum
[Morph] - scum lean
[Imaginality] - scum read

Notes:
* = Conditional of Morph/Amazonian not being scum together. Trusting Morph's read on the slot.
** = eh not explaining yet
¹ = I had redtea as a town lean but I don't like their most recent post so they're back to nulltown. Still feel decent on my read on them though, kinda.



goodnight thread

[Shirou]

Why are your trusting our read of Amazons while scumleaning us?

I already explained it before once but...

If you're scum and they aren't your partner, you're gonna keep town reading them so that they don't get suspicious. If you're town, it's apparently unlikely you're wrong on Amazon so Amazon is still town.

The unique scenario where Amazon is likely scum is when you're partners, and at the moment I don't think you're partners with them so they are more likely than not town either way.

In truth I wrote that part of the "notes" way before in my annotations back when I said I would trust your read on her, but this was basically the reasoning and it didn't really necessarily depend on your alignment, so when I changed you from null town to scum lean, I didn't feel like erasing/rewriting that part at all because I still don't think you're partners with her and the logic is still valid.

[Shirou]

would you agree that the position you've taken on them was arrived at more because of how you want to sort/engage with everyone else, rather than actual town indicative behaviors in redtea's ISO?

Hmm

Kinda. I wanted to shake up things a bit to see who would have a delayed reaction to NSG's words, but also redtea was a very consensus scum read, when someone came up to defend/stand against the wagon, I also thought it would be interesting to see who would stick with it and who wouldn't.

However either way, I did actually find redtea's ISO quite okay back then (they went down a tier since their "wallpost", it felt very non-redtea). About what I'm finding town in this ISO, let me try to answer it without revealing the entire thing (because I'm not locking my read on them yet so I still want to see more of them):

Don't you think if redtea was scum here it would be kinda...too obvious? They show up here, everyone pressures they to do something through shading but they still don't come up with much. I'm not saying "if scum reading a slot is too easy it means they can't be scum". No, there's players that are rather "obvious scum", but I don't think redtea specifically would have this sort of ISO as scum when I took a look through his past/recent scum games.

As ydrasse linked, in a recent town game their ISO felt somewhat similar to here, and they were just town miseliminated on D2. Perhaps I can't help but draw connections between his miselimination and the reasons people voted him there, and their play/people's reads on him here.

[Shirou]

anti-Shirouism

this is a bit funny to me

[Shirou]

I think I like GL having contradicting stances on my posts. Liking some of my more recent posts while trying to sort out an issue he has with my defense on redtea (that I kinda knew he would dig in regardless of alignment).

It feels like he's trying to sort me rather than just use the posts he dislike + NSG's post to slap a "need to rethink read" stance for a long time (which would enable him to keep continuously shading my slot or to get back to town reading me later on, depending on whatever would seem more beneficial considering the public opinion/perception of me in the future).

Honestly I'm kinda lost the same way some people may be lost about me when I try to read GL though. I think the above is sound but I don't want to put him above null yet due to the fact I think he could fake all the positives (and negatives?) so far.

As a certain little person would often say, in order for me to feel good about a town lean on GL, it still lacks a...boom shaka-laka reason.

[Shirou]

My Morph read is increasingly becoming PoE-like as well...most other slots just feel better to me.

[Shirou]

What were you thinking could be an advantage to doing this over having a flip and a bunch of trajectories to analyze?

I was kinda thinking about how we should optimally try to resolve contradicting cop claims in later stages of the game (which probably will happen because scum kinda has every motivation to do so in the last days if plausible), but I didn't have any master plan in mind specifically at that moment, I simply wondered if I could consider "no elimination" as one of the possible tools to try to develop a good way to solve that kind of situation, so I asked the mod.

On hindsight it probably feels like one of those empty mech posts/questions scum asks the mod to look busy, but eh that was truly what I was thinking.

[Shirou]

Shirou it's very rude of you to have so many of your stances be the same as mine.

heh

It's kinda why I upgraded you to null town rather than null. Your play here slightly remembers me of that game where you were SK and trying to not create too many waves (at least that's how I see your play there), but I like the fact we've very similar takes on some slots more than that.

[Shirou]

VOTE: redtea

Sync Achieved.

okay yeah you're probably scum

[Shirou]

You're trying to seem like you're "reconsidering" your read on me but all your points to me just sound like nitpick.

"He used the pronoun we". Like, if you've a problem with that you would have a problem with most of my posts because I always write that way regardless of alignment to avoid people going "oh it's a perspective slip!" or something dumb like that. There's multiple posts of mine that I do talk as if I'm part of the collective town or so.

and after all that rereading, research and all...you vote redtea. The consensus lurky scum read.

Let me ask you, did you skim the game Ydrasse's linked? You've now mentioned rereading "dedede" and other games for Ceph/Implosion dozens of times by now, but doesn't feel like you're trying to sort your top suspect as much?

Also Tejate you're gaining scum points for your last posts trying to reconsider Imaginality just because...I'm not even sure why. Because Amazon told you that saying "you're funny so I don't want to elim you" is a joke? Wasn't that kinda clear? I don't buy you reconsidering because of that, I feel you're reconsidering simply because the momentum for Imaginality seems to be diminishing, so you're either looking for an out to vote someone other than your potential buddy, or you're simply trying to follow consensus again. It's scummy either way to me.

[Shirou]

It reads as if you want to shade me therefore you're nitpicking some points to justify it rather than you're actually trying to find good reasons or posts that convey my alignment.

It's no longer PoE now, I do feel quite some scum vibes from your last post and it's now a read much less attached to Imaginality flipping scum (even if it always was a bit of an independent read, but still).

[Shirou]

Therefore I'm gonna warn everyone here and now:

I'm likely gonna get obnoxious. Maybe some of you already think I'm obnoxious but it's gonna get worse because now I just really want to kill Imaginality or Morph. Although maybe I could compromisse on Tejate if deadline hits but I would like Imaginality/Morph first.

Between Imaginality/Morph, I think I still do favor Imaginality a bit more, but it's not by that much. It seems way easier to eliminate Imaginality rather than Morph right now though, so I'm probably gunning for Imaginality today.

[Shirou]

imaginality (4): fua, Ydrasse, implosion, Shirou
redtea (3): GuiltyLion, Amazonian Legends, Cephir

Those are the current votes.

@redtea, NSG, NumberQ

hi I need your votes on the Imaginality's wagon. When you guys come around could you go into your read on Imaginality? I want to convince you three that he's likely scum if you already don't think so.

If you already do think so, please do vote him. We're nearing 60 pages by now and it's not bad even if it ends up ending the day. Especially you redtea, it's either your or him at this point I believe.

[Shirou]

Also Ceph, why are you sheeping Morph like that when you don't town read them?

Do you really think Imaginality accepting all the votes on him and being like "my elimination is okay as long as we get the most information out of it" is less scummy than...redtea's ISO lacking much content?

Let me ask you

How many times have you seen a lurky slot that doesn't have much content in their ISO being just limbait and flipping town?

VS

How many times have you seen a townie instantly go into defeatist mode and say stuff like "My miselimination is okay as long as we can get the most info out of it?".

I do not understand your switch there at all. It feels like you're just trying to play around Morph rather than actually critically thinking who has the highest chances of flipping scum. You're back to null and maybe in fact even null scum depending on how you reply the above.

[Shirou]

If Imaginality flips scum I think at least one on Ceph/Tejate/Morph is a buddy at the moment.

[Shirou]

Weirdly enough I feel like I see Morph as slightly townier with how Ceph acted there, it felt as a potential scum!Ceph doing a bit of a song and dance to town!Morph, which would especially make sense if Imaginality is indeed scum as I think and Morph's vote on redtea was an opportunity to switch without getting suspected for it. "I was sheeping Morph, I want us to work together" would be the justification if Imaginality ever flipped later.

[Shirou]

fua, Implosion and Ydrasse

If you guys are about to switch from Imaginality to any other wagon that may rise up, can we get engaged on why? I don't want this wagon to lose steam now because it sounds like a pain to rebuild it if it gets to 1 ~ 2 votes only.

[Shirou]

The situation calls for it so I'm gonna summarize my positive feelings about redtea here:

I've read at least 2 or 3 of their scum games, and 2 or 3 of their most recent town games.

In a nutshell, I think you're all underestimating scum!redtea here.

scum!redtea has no problems engaging people with questions, replying to questions, and coming up with reads/feelings about other slots.

Almost no scum does in fact have trouble with those things. They are

easy and simple

things to do for anyone with moderate experience in this game. You just get used to it. The people that have trouble doing it are more often than not due to a lack of motivation than lack of ability.

I kinda dislike their "lock-town" on fua because it feels kinda hard to believe there's that much difference between town!fua vs scum!fua having scrolled some of their games myself, but still, they are having trouble coming up with reads, and I do think that even if it sounds scummy at face-value, I believe scum!redtea would have no problem coming up with them, therefore making me believe that their behavior in this game is more likely town than not even if it sounds dubious.

[Shirou]

I guess that's it for now

This probably may look like a bit of a chainsaw defense or me getting "desperate" with a redtea wagon but...eh, I think they are town so I believe it's not gonna hurt even if my counterwagon fails here and redtea gets flipped. If redtea ever flips scum I can accept people condemning my slot but I don't think they do flip red at all (hence how I'm acting here I guess). This course of events would only likely fuel people to go for Imaginality in D2 me being here or not tomorrow.

So at best I'm getting Imaginality flip today, at worst I think I can get it in D2 even if I'm dead? Not bad...

Spoiler: Only for people that enjoy reading my silly/useless meta self-aware tidbits

Any accusations in the near future that I may be redtea's partner trying to create a counterwagon like this, can't help but make me giggle.

If I was scum here, the slot in redtea's position would definitely be town, and Imaginality may or not be a buddy. The plan would be to create a narrative that there's a scum team behind the counterwagon to the "real scum" Imaginality, however, the real intention here was to make a stance against redtea wagon but still let it go through. If people gathered suspicious of me defending redtea in this situation, it would only fuel their motivation to vote redtea here, and in this hypothetical scenario upon their green flip, not only suspicious on me would reach the highest point and begin to likely fall down, it would also give our scum team a free miselimination plus a couple of easy targets for miseliminations in D2/D3. The extra bonus being the creation of targets to avoid cop check on us during nights as well.

That would...most likely be the kind of plan I would do as scum here. So if you think I'm scum, it's actually kinda a good idea to vote Imaginality kkkkkkk

I would never risk my slot as scum for a buddy in the position that redtea is in right now. So if perhaps anyone is really suspicious of me but don't think they can get an elimination on me (or plan to cop check me later), there's a pretty good chance I would be bussing here you know?

Almost zero chance redtea would ever be one of my buddies though.

[Shirou]

fua, Implosion and Ydrasse

If you guys are about to switch from Imaginality to any other wagon that may rise up, can we get engaged on why? I don't want this wagon to lose steam now because it sounds like a pain to rebuild it if it gets to 1 ~ 2 votes only.

I’m not.

mhm, got it and thank you.

[Shirou]

I'm starting to be unable to read all the long posts without my eyes getting lazy. It kinda feels everyone is mostly posting more of their usual (as in, the kind of stuff they have roughly posted like in the past 50 pages so it doesn't change my read on them a lot, so my eyes begin to "glaze over" as Amazon says).

However there's two posts/stances that caught my attention so I'm gonna reply them.

I really do hope Shirou is town here because if so I feel like we are vibing just like incredibly hard in the past chunk of this day and if not then idk if he's just intentionally focusing on pocketing me, which would be really weird for multiple reasons, but gosh.

We really are vibing apparently...like, so hard that I was kinda thinking this as well for a bit while reading your post above this.

"Implosion is kinda mindmelding with me in an ~unpopular~ opinion which sounds towny, but could he be perhaps aiming to kinda pocket me by siding with me?"

However...I don't feel it when I thought about it at least for now. Therefore to me your slot is simply gradually looking better.

I don't assume town is more likely to be disengaged from the game than scum, and that's what it feels like you and Shirou are assuming with this logic

The point isn't that they are more or less engaged as one alignment GL. I think in fact they would be posting in roughly the same amount if they were scum here, the difference would be

what

they post.

Their ISO would likely be just as short if they were scum, but in the few posts they've, I think they would have tried hard to convey the image of a "townie trying to find scum/solve the game". This matches what I've seen of their scum game and what you would reasonably expect from most scum players. Meanwhile here I feel like...they aren't really trying to pass a certain image or impression with their posts at all. That's what I like about redtea GL.

It's not that their ISO is merely lacking, it's that they don't try to hide the fact their ISO is lacking, neither feel very pressured about it when others take an issue with that. I think that part of their play here would be likely different as scum, so therefore by process of elimination since there's only two alignments, I think they are likely town.

[Shirou]

but I think if even with the reply above you can't see my point GL, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about redtea.

It's not like I don't see your point though. I know what I'm reading redtea off can be walking in a slippery rope in some cases, however having seen some of their town/scum games...I really do believe this tell is a decent way of reading them and that's it. (at least in this game, in future ones this won't apply anymore I suppose).

Even if you don't agree with it, can you see my point though?

I don't think my goal here needs to be convincing you to give up on redtea for the rest of the game at all, I think I would be quite satisfied in simply persuading you that Imaginality may be the better D1 elimination.

[Shirou]

ah actually, there was also something else

@Tejate I think you said you "resented me" for giving you "scum points" when you "only" said that you would "reconsider", but...I get that at the same time I don't.

Logically speaking you're right, when someone reconsiders something, they can end up being in the same opinion before they started the reconsideration.

However this is a mafia game, and there's some other circumstances here. First of all Imaginality didn't really do much from the moment you voted him to the moment you said you would "reconsider". Therefore you aren't reconsidering him because there's a surplus of new information, you're reconsidering him because...you feel like it?

There's no particular good reason that I can see for you to suddenly try to reconsider the slot, but it may have still been okay for me if the "I'll reconsider" post didn't have kinda terrible timing. It happened right when the counterwagon for Imaginality was rising in redtea, so it was the perfect moment for Imaginality potential scum buddies to either vote redtea or to switch their votes to somewhere else other than Imaginality.

Don't you agree that if Imaginality was your buddy, and you had offered to vote him before, saying you'll start to "reconsider" him (even though there isn't a lot of new information in the slot) would be the perfect way to vote somewhere else so that his elimination hopefully doesn't go through?

The last thing is...I feel there's a bit of a site meta element to this as well Tejate. If you're town here, this "always reconsidering everything/hesitance to get set on doing X thing/etc" attitude may be your personality, but I kinda feel it's something most people in this forum would find scummy at least on face value. Regardless of alignment I would recommend thinking twice before saying something you may potentially change your mind too soon, it usually makes your slot look worse in my opinion.

[Shirou]

@Tejate actually to summarize I thought of a nice way to put it:

in mafia games, the timing of an action is crucial to interpret it. I'll give a silly example.

player X votes on player Y that ends up flipping scum.

That's a given action, but whether it's going to be interpreted as towny or scummy by others, often depends on the timing.

If it's one of the first votes, especially if it was the leading vote, it's probably gonna be seen as positive/towny.

But if it's a sudden vote when the wagon is about to already go through, it can look like shameless busing. It can often be interpreted by the majority that player X knew player Y was going to flip scum and wanted to get in the wagon no matter what to avoid looking bad in the next day.

Therefore, it's not that reconsidering slots is always scummy Tejate, but I do think the timing of your reconsideration about Imaginality (especially given as I said before, the slot hadn't received much new info/content at all) was kinda scummy.

[Shirou]

Well, goodnight.

also Tammy last posts kinda feels like town I guess.

[Shirou]

That was why I was trying to figure out how much I should be concerned about Ydrasse's claim.

Where were you concerned with Ydrasse's claim? I see where you were suspecting her and where you were concerned about fua's claim, but I don't see where you were specifically concerned with Ydrasse's claim.

I deliberately stayed vague about the reason in my post #713 ("I'm also suspicious of Ydrasse. Need to go back and get the quotes but I remember being pinged at least a couple of times.") because I didn't want to out myself as N2 doc at that point. In the background I was trying to figure out how much her claim should make me wary of her hence the probability discussion.

This is the best post in your ISO. Your claim considering this is kinda more believable except...

Ydrasse's claim came right after I suggested perhaps we should massclaim except we could

lie

about it.

Why do you seem so confident that Ydrasse is telling the truth there?

In fact, even if I hadn't said anything about lie being permissible, why would you assume someone would necessarily be telling the truth when claiming out of the blue like that? It's definitely possible to be a townie doing WIFOM even if I hadn't said that we could lie about it, but it's

especially

likely and possible that it's WIFOM even if she's town due to the fact I said lying to confuse scum was okay.

At the same time this makes your claim a bit more believable, it also kinda reeks of TMI by how much you trust that Ydrasse was telling the truth there, which may be a sign you knew she was town, because as scum it's easier to believe what comes from townies is just the truth.

(I know you're considering "she may be lying and is scum", but the scenario I'm talking about is one where she's lying, except she's town doing it for WIFOM when some posts before she claimed it, I had suggested the idea. It doesn't feel you gave much consideration/thought to the possibilities here. )

[Shirou]

Also, Shirou's argument that Tejate is trying to divert from me falls apart when I flip town. So to my mind there are three possibilities here about why Shirou is pushing this point:

1. Shirou is town and believes he's making a good point against Tejate.
2. Shirou is scum and thinks making it look like Tejate is a plausible buddy for me will help get my mislim over the line
3. Shirou is scumbuddies with Tejate and knows this attack on Tejate will be invalidated once I flip, making Tejate look better than if Shirou hadn't called him scummy over this, while helping them with distancing

(2 and 3 could both be true.)

I think it's funny that you need to emphasize "2 and 3 could be true", which are the cases where I would be scum. You listed them as possibilities from the start, doesn't that mean they would all be technically possible anyway?

[Shirou]

if either redtea/imaginality are town then someone here is definitely a deeper scum fucking with the gamestate but I don't think I really have a solid suspect as for who it is

I also do think there's a "deeper scum" as in "active scum". My money is kinda on one of Ceph/Morph/Tejate at the moment but /shrug.

I kinda think it's still possible you're scum as well GL but I don't want to say it because we're almost getting together on the Imaginality wagon. Don't want to sour the mood .-.

[Shirou]

oh, I had wrote this in one of my tabs but forgot to post. I think it should have been the second or so post of this string but now it's the last I guess.

watch out GL i'm isoing you if that isn't clear

this is a weird post but ok

oh "maybe underestimating"
that's still praise
ok sorry enough live commentary spam

yeah it was praise