Open 870 | White Flag Mountainous | Postgame

[Klick]

i am familiar with everyone other than bluebloodedtoffee aubrey and toto

How are you judging familiarity? Because I have no clue who you are

[Klick]

I know like half of you
Most of the other half have anime avatars, leaving me with a sense of solidarity and comfort
I'm ready to seize the Day

[Klick]

Well I didn't expect to like someone by page 1. Those are some strange conspiracies you're considering that I'm not sure how quickly mafia would throw out haha.

i prefer to think of them as possibilities rather than conspiracies but much like shirou said i am town and bored (though kinda weird to me that that manifests itself as not posting in shirou’s case if shirou is actually town) thus thinking about posts and such but i dunno how town indicative that is for me - at the very least i am aware that that is how town me functions with regards to trying to determine the alignments of others so it likely wouldn’t be too too hard for me to do so here if i were mafia but no need to worry about that since i am not

It's like you're speaking to my soul

[Klick]

giu (can I call you that?) seems like town rn

Agreed

[Klick]

BlueBloodedToffee
Lucian
Aristeia

giuseppina

SirCakez
Toto
TheGoldenParadox
Shirou
Aubrey

Gamma Emerald

Una

NorwegianboyEE

VOTE: Aristeia

[Klick]

BlueBloodedToffee
Lucian
Aristeia

giuseppina

SirCakez
Toto
TheGoldenParadox
Shirou
Aubrey

Gamma Emerald

Una

NorwegianboyEE

VOTE: Aristeia

this is a decent start

I'm intrigued

[Klick]

BlueBloodedToffee
Lucian
Aristeia

giuseppina

SirCakez
Toto
TheGoldenParadox
Shirou
Aubrey

Gamma Emerald

Una

NorwegianboyEE

VOTE: Aristeia

Are you crossing off your townreads or what is this?

Basically yes

[Klick]

Well, I guess I am not against a pina townread by this point

What did pina post between 79 and 109 that makes you make that distinction?

[Klick]

Well, I guess I am not against a pina townread by this point

What did pina post between 79 and 109 that makes you make that distinction?

Do you mind if I answer this later? After you tell me why you were townreading the people you were townreading.

Giuseppina is playing with a level of clearness and self-awareness that scum very rarely

choose

to play with
I believe Una's attempts at solving so far have come from town trying to figure the game out
I've mindmelded with Gamma's takes like three times already

Your turn

[Klick]

About to go back to work, still have 3 pages to read

I'm leaning town on Shiro
Aristeia is the most interesting person in the game atm

[Klick]

Do you think this is the best I could do as scum though? Maybe not even the best given we can't always play our best, but do you think there's any scum motivation for all this then?

I'm sure you can do better regardless of your alignment.

So I dont really know Shirou

But I agree with the notion that scum are not actually very likely to play the way Shirou is playing

What is Shirou's goal at the moment if he's scum?

[Klick]

Klick's 217 is bleh. Saying that someone's solving comes from "them trying to figure the game out" is a textbook early-scumhunting sentence that doesn't really inspire confidence I guess. Maybe it's because I can kind of see what Norwee is saying about her recently. Level zero.

When I say 'trying to figure the game out', I'm not just saying Una is doing basic solving motions
Una is posting thoughts and I genuinely believe she believes what she's saying
Post 68 specifically feels like genuine thoughts about the game as opposed to her trying to persuade me that she's town or that Gamma is scum

Klick, why are you voting Ari?

She's done nothing to make me townread her

[Klick]

Well, I guess I am not against a pina townread by this point

What did pina post between 79 and 109 that makes you make that distinction?

Do you mind if I answer this later? After you tell me why you were townreading the people you were townreading.

Bump

[Klick]

You and I both know Toto has no wagon forming and nobody is at risk right now. So vote. We can’t stay undecided forever and you can change. Otherwise it just reads as cautious idle mafia. Though Ari seems to be backing you by stating this as your standard. A bit not so great standard though me thinks.

Votes are not nearly as important as people like to believe they are

[Klick]

VOTE: Gamma if it's not there. Probably worse than Norwee

Can you talk more about this?

[Klick]

pace himself, conserve energy for later, figure out who is mislimmable

I feel like Shirou is drawing a lot of unnecessary attention to himself for achieving those goals

[Klick]

Yoink

[Klick]

Do you think this is the best I could do as scum though? Maybe not even the best given we can't always play our best, but do you think there's any scum motivation for all this then?

I'm sure you can do better regardless of your alignment.

So I dont really know Shirou

I replaced your slot here, but I guess you may not have read the game after replacing out (even though you commented in post-game?):

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=82360

Spoiler: useless trivia fact, only Norwe is obliged to read :oops:

Now that I think about it, it was the game by which I won white knight once, it's heart-warming to remember I managed to eliminate scum!FL there without turning the game into a spamfest. I had even forgot about this game until I went to look for it given I remembered I had been in a game with you (didn't rememeber I replaced you in the first place though).

Norwe, see? scum!FL was eliminated once without an entire parade for it. There's still hope for the next TM game where if he participates he'll inevitably roll scum again while our team rolls town and get at each other throats. It's becoming a painful tradition I don't wanna break.

I did keep up with the rest of this game and you were absolutely brilliant in it.

I don't think it really gave me a huge sense of you as a player though

[Klick]

i think we are similar in this way as i generally have a pretty okay memory for things i have read even though i get things jumbled a lot but i use sticky notes to remember basic things and i get lost walking routes i have done many times before

This is incredibly relatable

[Klick]

giuseppina

Shirou

Gamma Emerald

Una

BlueBloodedToffee
SirCakez
Toto
TheGoldenParadox
Aubrey
NorwegianboyEE

Lucian
Aristeia

[Klick]

pace himself, conserve energy for later, figure out who is mislimmable

I feel like Shirou is drawing a lot of unnecessary attention to himself for achieving those goals

do you feel like he is not accomplishing his goals at the present?

I think Shirou is town and is basically doing whatever he wants here

so... no

[Klick]

She's done nothing to make me townread her

And everyone else

has

done something to make you townread them? Because this doesn't make sense to me otherwise, but I also feel like this is not it.

For the amount of interesting content Aristeia is putting out, I am surprised that precisely none of it looks like something scum wouldn't choose to do

I answered your 127 here:

I read her by seeing how much and how long I get a "???" feeling when reading her posts. Her posts have a unique style to them as either alignment, but there is a certain internal logic to them when she's town, which I find lacks when she's scum. I started the game thinking her posts were a bit of "???" but they have been getting better recently so.

And then I talked more about it with Ari and pina.

Right, but
Why was this specifically not true for your giuseppina read at post 79, but it was specifically true at post 109? As implied by this post:

I am intrigued by both Klick's list in 79 *and* Aristeia calling it a good start in 82.

do you disagree with any of his townreads?

Yes, with all of them.

Well, I guess I am not against a pina townread by

this

point.

[Klick]

ok assuming we're both town

one of us is right and one of us is wrong

probability says you will be right but i have a feeling i am right

i dont actually care about winning so i am not going to effort and persuade you because i think i would enjoy you losing to scum shirou more

Is this in response to me?

[Klick]

I saw your readslist, I thought it was overall odd. I kept reading, I thought pina's posts weren't *that* bad and that I could understand if someone was townreading her. I don't know which posts specifically did it, it probably wasn't any specific post; I could go back and pick some posts but this feels like a waste of time and I am highly skeptical this is something that is like, actually thought to be AI by anyone.

I'm mostly frustrated that when I asked you this initially your response was 'sure I can answer that, but can you answer this first?' and now I've done that and you still haven't given a proper answer
But I'll drop it for now

Do you have higher expectations of Ari? (Also @pina, I did not assume so because I don't recall Klick and Ari playing together.) Or has everyone else done something that you would consider something that scum wouldn't do?

These are not the only two options
I don't have

higher expectations

of Ari particularly as a player outside of the context of this game
I DO feel like Ari has posted a lot more of actual meaningful substance than most players thus far
I'm used to getting townreads out of that kind of content
But I'm not getting that with Ari and I think that could potentially be a sign that she's scum

Put another way, it reminds me of Dunnstral in the C9++ game we were both in. Dunnstral kept posting content and I enjoyed the content but it never looked towny.

Why am I scum?

Same reason as Ari basically
You're both in the 'interestingly not town' section of my readslist

[Klick]

Spoiler: actual useless post (aka my attempt at being a "boomer" by talking about site history)

Meta has little to no grounds or basis in my eyes. The only meta comment Ive taken stock in was when whoever said you typically stall on votes. Other than that, it’s been in one ear and out the other across the board.

Isn't it curious how after Ellie "happened" the site mostly moved on from this argument (the "is meta trash or not")? I'm not "truly" an old player for a 20 years old site so I haven't read too many "truly old" games but I feel this is an opinion/take on meta that used to be way more common before 2017/2018 or so happened

But there's like, still lost sheep in the limbo we're all in known as

"figuring out mafia"

, they haven't seen some glimpses of light relatively recently showed.

I for one am in this camp as well, but in a reformist way. I think meta can tell us some things, and if you dive deep and methodically into it, sinking truly a lot of time, money, effort or all those combined, you may be able to create individual frameworks on how to read the individuals rather than trying to freestyle between using "general statistical tells" and your "experience" with the player be it watching or playing together with them (basically meta). However I don't think it's how it's "intended" to be, or even realistically can be played by most people, and in my experience I would say the "I know X meta a lot trust me on this read here" argument has failed me at Live 4K resolution more than 50% of the games.

Getting some truly reliable tells can be harder than what we often believe imo...

I would say, "good meta is king, no meta is okay and bad meta is trash"

This was my "current state of play in mafiascum dot com" TED Talk for tonight thank you

I largely agree with this perspective with a few slight differences
I think meta tells are as accurate as one's actual ability to put together an accurate framework of how a person thinks/behaves (and in that sense it doesn't even have to be 'meta', this process can be followed within the context of a single game)
Meta is an incredibly powerful scumhunting tool that almost everyone uses improperly even when their conclusions are right

[Klick]

Has anything important happened

[Klick]

Shirou is a national treasure

[Klick]

Shirou can you talk to me about Totos town?
PEdit: I'm up to Page 29 but up to that point, yes

[Klick]

VOTE: Gamma if it's not there. Probably worse than Norwee

Can you talk more about this?

@Una

Where's your Gamma read at atm?

[Klick]

this could be the most convoluted bus of all time from shirou to una

???

[Klick]

Spoiler: not game related

This game has cool people in it. I've not interacted with many of you but I appreciate the vibe this game has. I'm not great at making friends and talking to people. But uh, if anyone in this game wanted to chat nonsense or I dunno play video games or something. That would be cool. Anyway gonna hide in a corner now.

[Klick]

Toto's probe about the gambit seems genuinely uninformed instead of engineered to make Shirou's answer look bad.

I think you're correct that Toto isn't trying to undermine Shirou's point
But I don't see where you're getting uninformed

I feel like Toto's 830 lines up rather well with how not-so-confident scum would want to be positioning themselves.

[Klick]

I also feel if either Ari or Una are scum, both would bus a bit.

If neither of Ari/Una are scum, they are still the best scum hunters in this playerlist most likely so why not

imo pina is the best scum hunter in this pl and it is not particularly close.

nah

ya know when hoopla tells someone that she (hoopla) does not need that someone to solve the game, she simply needs them to make their alignment known (and the built-in assumption to that statement is that she herself will solve the game)? i am pretty okay quite good really at being someone and not so good at being hoopla (despite my best efforts) so the hope is generally that someone else will assume the mantle at least for the game

Hoopla taught me like half of what I know about scumhunting
Alisae taught me the other half

[Klick]

giuseppina

Una

Shirou

Gamma Emerald

NorwegianboyEE

BlueBloodedToffee
Cat Scratch Fever
TheGoldenParadox
Aubrey

Toto
Lucian
Aristeia

[Klick]

God, this is going to be one of those games, isn't it.

I have energy to do things but so much of this game feels like noise to me, I am dreading starting anywhere. So I'm doing analysis of the first thing that someone recommends me to do.

Aristeia, go
PEdit: oh shit

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

[Klick]

Klick sell me on Shurro town. Also Pina.

I am a notoriously bad salesperson but I can talk to you about why I believe they're town

I heavily doubt Shirou is scum. He's filled a fifth of this game with nuanced content. He very frequently updates the thread with his thoughts and they've almost always got depth. His contributions are far past the point of scum utility and I think he's genuinely just posting what he discerns about the game.

I've already talked about giuseppina being town and my reasoning hasn't changed. It's very similar to Shirou; more in the vein of, I read giuseppina's posts and don't get the impression at all that they're being posted to try and persuade people that giuseppina is town. The common theme being that their thoughts on this game are frequent and transparent.

[Klick]

i don't think klick made the list either so i'm in good company

[Klick]

I’m kinda paranoid of Klick ngl

I'd be interested in hearing why

[Klick]

The only issue is with a set up like this it’s optimal for 1 or 2 mafia to try hard town. With that in the back of my mind I worry with Pina a bit as the game progresses. It’s one of the reasons why I hounded for action earlier. So far while they are the 3rd most active I have seen little pushing or advocating for a vote / offing. The posts have largely been revolving around why people read them the way they do, or prodding questions but they don’t seem to go anywhere after. I don’t think this is hard content for mafia to generate. She’s fine for now, but this feeling keeps itching at me in the back of my mind regarding the slot as the game progresses.

It’s slightly how I play as mafia. Stay relatively active. Earn town lean. Keep reads open and follow the general flow of the town while it eats itself until you have to start taking direct action as needed.

My biggest takeaway from my past few years of playing Mafia has been that there's often a massive difference between 'optimal scum play' and 'how scum will choose to play'.

Theoretically I agree with you that a lot of things giuseppina has posted wouldn't be difficult for scum to produce. But I don't think pina!scum has decided that 'post in-depth self-referential content in bulk while lightly probing others' is how they are going to play as scum. There are many different ways pina could approach a scum game, and I don't think pina has chosen

this

one.

[Klick]

Hiya ^_^

[Klick]

klick started fine and fell off a bit.

I think he has issues with keeping up with a game regardless of alignment but more so as mafia.

My general feeling is that he actually believes i could be scum but if he disappears its concerning.

if hes town it will get more obvious over time.

The main issue with engagement for me atm is that most of the posts in the game of late are coming from or are about players that I already have a fairly static perception of (aka you and Shirou)

That's not criticism of either of you, I don't think it's making the thread unreadable or anything, but it has the side effect of me not having very much to say

(Tangentially, I'd consider your description of me here surprisingly accurate)

[Klick]

Or you can be convincing and correct and everyone still thinks you can be scum for absolutely no fucking reason

The problem at that point is that you haven't been sufficiently convincing

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

Wow uh

I don't recall ever reading a 40+ paged mini-sized game and walking away with such nebulous reads.

I think Shirou, Klick, and Save the Dragons are probably town.

<3

Can you talk to me about StD?

[Klick]

Klick, have you already talked about why you're scumreading Lucian?

I talked about Lucian in 380

I'm not sure at the moment with Lucian. I'm historically bad at reading Datisi. Aristeia puts into words fairly well what currently bothers me about him - it doesn't feel like he has much of a drive to solve. But there are multiple things circumstantially that explain that; he said at the start that he was going to be busy and not tryharding, and I relate with what he's saying about the game being really hard to parse.

I think I'm going to give him room to breathe and see where I'm at with him later

[Klick]

VOTE: Una

I'm not sure if my current Klick vote is actually doing anything. And I know "giving Ari space" is a dangerous game if she's scum, but I dunno. I'm having doubts. I'd like other people's thoughts on her recent posting as well.

@Klick, mind giving an answer to the above? Who do you want to vote currently?

Pedit: lol

If your choice is Una, Ari or myself, the correct answer is definitely Ari

The best way I can describe Ari is through comparison with Shirou and giuseppina, as the other frequent posters
All three of them have plenty of things to say
I read Shirou's and pina's posts and think that the angle they're playing the game at would be an odd one to choose to play at as scum; basically they're both doing a lot of things that add no clear value to their perception. I think they post things because they think them and want people to know what they think, regardless of how it makes them look.

I read Aristeia's posts and I don't get that. Like the latest reads she posted felt like she was posting reads because having a stance on the game is a good thing to have. It felt very perception-focused.
I hadn't considered it before literally typing this but I think that's the crux of my issue with Aristeia. I get the sense that Ari is acutely aware of and concerned with how she is going to be perceived when she posts things. I think that's something that town sometimes does but scum necessarily always does. And the fact that I'm consistently feeling that way with Ari posts is what has her leaning scum for me.

[Klick]

VOTE: Aristeia
This is a much better vote than Una

[Klick]

Who do you want to vote currently?

Missed this
I'm gonna read the last page of posts and then probably make a list of people I'd be fine with voting today

[Klick]

Would actively choose to vote: Aristeia, Toto
Would be fine to wagon: Lucian, Aubrey, TGP
Null but I want to see more from them: CSF, STD

[Klick]

i posted reads because toto asked me for reads

I'm aware
The feeling that your posting is for others to see and not for your own understanding isn't limited to just that interaction

[Klick]

I think it’s to the interest of scum to make Shirou’s reputation falter in this game because there are no nightkills

ehhhhhhhhhhhh

ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

sigh coming off a game where i just pointed out a mafia "townslipping" in this way and then said mafia was like 'oh whatever do you mean whyever would i state something like that i knew to be false as mafia' and then another mafia was like, 'what did you mean by this why would a townslip be mafia indicative' sort of thing

it is like,

i want to put no value into this but if anything i think it's somewhat likely to come from mafia yeah,

I have to literally force myself to think about stuff like this as little as possible because although I'm aware that this stuff happens both accidentally as town and intentionally as scum, my brain REALLY likes chucking stuff like that into the town bin automatically

[Klick]

i posted reads because toto asked me for reads

I'm aware
The feeling that your posting is for others to see and not for your own understanding isn't limited to just that interaction

i do not post for my own understanding

i post so others can understand my thoughts

i understand myself just fine without posting

Okay
That's not going to do much to resolve my ability to read you though

[Klick]

i think the most townie thing klick has done is that i dont think scum klick treats me with this level of uncharitableness. its so over the top that i feel like it usually comes from tunneled townies.

Uncharitableness?
I don't really see how my treatment of you has been uncharitable
Can you expand

[Klick]

I’m kinda paranoid of Klick ngl

I'd be interested in hearing why

I don’t think your reads are as fleshed out as they could be
I also think your scumgame could be better than others give you credit for

I don't go into full detail about my reads early on as a general rule
I used to but I had enough of getting written off as a VI for my solving process years ago
People only really get beyond an abridged version of my reads if they ask

Or you can be convincing and correct and everyone still thinks you can be scum for absolutely no fucking reason

The problem at that point is that you haven't been sufficiently convincing

Why the fuck did you think that was about this game?

This is unnecessarily aggro
You were talking theoretically and I thought it was interesting so I also responded theoretically

[Klick]

i think the most townie thing klick has done is that i dont think scum klick treats me with this level of uncharitableness. its so over the top that i feel like it usually comes from tunneled townies.

Uncharitableness?
I don't really see how my treatment of you has been uncharitable
Can you expand

toto asked me for my reads and you called me scum for giving him reads

like it feels like you are viewing my actions through the lens of she is scum and she is doing this because she is scum without really considering if I would do this if I am town.

even your point about me being scum because i "want to be perceived" as town

like why wouldnt i want to be perceived as town if im town?

the comparison to pina and shirou is also kind of gross because its like ok sure there is a difference in that you can say my posting is more self-pres than either of them

but niether of them are in danger of being elimmed so why wouldnt it be?

you dont really consider my motives as town you just kind of say oh this is scum motivated if shes scum.

I feel like you've taken the things I've actually said about my read on you and made further assumptions based on how you feel about what I'm saying.

I've not called you scum for giving Toto reads
I have explicitly said that the self-focused posting that has pinged me so far *could* conceivably come from town but would certainly be happening if you were scum

Keep in mind that I was asked to expand on my read of you just like you were asked to give your reads
I do think you're more likely to be scum than town but it's not like I'm death-tunneling on the prospect of you being scum

I feel like your reaction to my suspicion of you is out of proportion with how much I actually suspect you, and I'm not sure if that's because I've stated it poorly or because you feel particularly pressured by what I'm saying.

[Klick]

i posted reads because toto asked me for reads

I'm aware
The feeling that your posting is for others to see and not for your own understanding isn't limited to just that interaction

[Klick]

Like you have specifically admitted that this is something you are doing
I'm not saying it necessarily means you are scum and I agree that there are reasons that town would act with self-preservation

[Klick]

I think this conversation has given me a better idea of who you are and how you think
I'm fine to drop it for now but I'm glad it happened!

[Klick]

Hello lovelies I'll be here in several hours. (Read like 5-ish)

[Klick]

Yoink

[Klick]

@fireisredsir

Hi

From your own perspective, what do you tend to do differently as town than as scum? You seem like the kind of person who would have an opinion on this and I'm interested 7n hearing it
I remember being rather surprised that you were scum in Datisi's Cafe and so I'd like a reference on how to read you.

[Klick]

STD's entrance to today feels really towny to me

[Klick]

In a brief fit of zaniness I decided to abandon my gut and listen to the town

I didn't really have a good read on una anyway

I don't think this is a scum take

[Klick]

I have no clue what the case even was on Una…I really wish we would have eliminated Ari. Self votes and self sacrifice always read so bad to me.

Gamma just seems like a zero info kill. So scum must be happy enough with the game state to some degree I guess.

This feels really icky to me.

[Klick]

VOTE: aubrey

Lol
VOTE: Aubrey

[Klick]

i'm also pretty tired and frustrated and want a flip. i think una is +rand to be scum but this is not a strong read and i'd prefer ari, i just... want a flip more than i want to try to push for a lim on the ari slot.

I think this is pretty bad justification for the hammer btw. TGP doesn't mention a read on Una at all before this, and it's not clear to me what kind of answers an Una flip would give to help TGP solve.

I had the opposite read of TGP's hammer
It's not *good* justification for ending the day early but the reasoning here feels genuine and I don't feel like he's particularly trying to persuade me he's town coming away from it

[Klick]

i agree that una wasn't sufficiently towny for me to find her as town early on either

Were you reading along in real-time or was this from a catch-up upon replacing in?

[Klick]

Does Shirou have a particularly scary scum reputation?
I have a lot of trouble seeing a world where Shirou is scum here. I can really clearly see what he's saying coming from a town perspective. Unless he's like Flavor Leaf-levels of interested in scum thread manipulation I don't see Shirou being scum here ever.

[Klick]

Honestly this strongarm'ing playstyle isn't bringing me good results as town and it emotionally really messes with me.

Haven't read much but I think this is nearly always genuine and not some kind of theatre just to get townread.

I like the new guy

[Klick]

@Aubrey If TGP is scum, do you think I'm a likely partner? If yes, do you think TGP is likely scum in the first place?

I ask the same to @Klick and @StD

No and no

[Klick]

aubrey has kinda felt like a bit of a supporting role to me so far this game

like it feels like they're sometimes... there. but mostly just to say "hey, this game sure is a game, huh?" and drop a few thoughts. i don't have a clear picture of what they believe or a sense that they are trying to move the game into a more sortable place

that is probably unfair and im sure they're doing more but it is the assessment i have after reading along and not yet actually looking closely at the slot

often that is a place where scum can be but i don't have much reason to actively scumread there. reading iso should prob be a priority tbh

I'd appreciate you having a more in-depth look at Aubrey very soon if that's already on your to-do list

[Klick]

I think i wrongly townread Fire once so that's why i'm being careful.

Dude same

[Klick]

Klick, do you know RC? Do you think of him as a good player?

I didn't play a ton with him but I was aware enough of him
'Good player' is a very complicated concept to me but I do think he's more accurate than most players that have been on the site and that's the metric that matters most to me

[Klick]

i'm also

pretty tired and frustrated

and want a flip. i think una is +rand to be scum but this is not a strong read and i'd prefer ari,

i just... want a flip more than i want to try to push for a lim on the ari slot.

It's not *good* justification for ending the day early but the reasoning here feels genuine and I don't feel like he's particularly trying to persuade me he's town coming away from it

How did the reasoning feel genuine? I had to shower myself after reading that to remove all the slime.

You realize he did this when he was the main alternative wagon?

Yes, I do realise this

I'd like TGP to come in and post thoughts before getting too much into my read of the hammer, but in short, I think there's depth to his reads and perspective on the game and I don't think wanting the day to end in TGP's position is particularly scum-indicative

[Klick]

pace himself, conserve energy for later, figure out who is mislimmable

I feel like Shirou is drawing a lot of unnecessary attention to himself for achieving those goals

do you feel like he is not accomplishing his goals at the present?

I think Shirou is town and is basically doing whatever he wants here

so... no

imo this take kinda lacks some critical thinking that i would expect to be present in a town klick mind

the context is that shirou has claimed that he is intending for people to suspect him, and a couple people do

klick asks ari what he's accomplishing. ari lists some ideas of goals. klick says that he's drawing more attention than would be necessary. ari says, but is he accomplishing his scum goals?

and klick says i think he's town so no.

even though it wasn't in ari's list, i think there's an obvious scum goal that shirou would have of getting townread. he said his goal was to get suspected early but i think it's p silly to take that at face value, he wants to get townread even if it isn't immediate. so if klick is townreading him then that would be a sign of an accomplished goal. instead they just kind of brush past that possibility and dismiss it as it not being possible for shirou to be accomplishing scum goals bc he isn't scum

it doesn't read to me like someone who is uninformed of shirou's alignment and is trying to sort him. i think it could come from either defending a partner or from tmi. either way, getting townread by scum klick would not be a goal that shirou would have, and i think this post is more reflective of that mindset than a town one

I think the argument of 'well, it's working on you, isn't it' is a silly one

Ari asked if Shirou was accomplishing his scum goals
I didn't think Shirou had those goals in the first place because I didn't think Shirou was scum

I have lots of thoughts on the subject of what scum tend to

choose

to do as opposed to what scum are

able

to do that are relevant to this discussion and that's something I'd be interested in talking about with you in particular at some point

But in short, I disagreed with Ari's premises and didn't give them much thought

[Klick]

I don't actually believe you've read the game and not seen the frequent mentions about my scum game Klick. I believe there's quite a bit of it.

Even if you say you "kinda suspected it", the way you ask isn't for confirmation on something you already suspect like "wait does Shirou has a big scum range?", but as if you had no clue at all that this could ever be the case.

I believe you're asking it even though you already likely kinda know the answer because you want to seem like you're "solving"/"evaluating" my slot. I think it's one of the

fakest

posts in those near 70 pages of this game.

A post that you already should have a clue or two about, a post meant only for show?

I've skimmed a large amount of commentary by and about you throughout reading this game for the sake of actually keeping up with it. I have seen that people think you're good at scum, but I don't attribute much credit to that in comparison to my own read of you. Earlier in the game it made some sense to me that there might be paranoia surrounding you, but I think you've consistently shown a very clear town thought process and it surprises me that that's still not the thread consensus.

I'm also not really sure what this has to do with the RC question

[Klick]

tbh im like mildly concerned at how i put klick suspicion into the conversation and started talking about that a bit and then shirou like full force jumps into that and starts hard pushing in that direction, when his last previous mention just had them in null/difficult to sort

it could just be the timing is a coincidence but it does make me hesitate a lil bit

welp this one I can prove post-game since I posted it in my PT way before you said anything

I'm always paying attention to what slots do, even if it doesn't seem like that

that's why I wanted you to not talk too much about Klick before he could say something, I didn't want to put him into defensive mode

I will say I almost quoted this post and said 'hello, I'm here '

I'm waiting for something but it's not here yet so forgive me but I don't want to drop certain thoughts I've yet

I do want to do something in this game though, just don't know very well what since I should wait before doing what I actually want to

[Klick]

The fact Klick seems to have stopped posting is kinda a bad look ngl

To clarify, it's 1:41am here and a small child is sleeping on my chest
I am planning on finishing catching up and then trying to sleep again

[Klick]

why would he do that as mafia?

It's too crazy and I have no reason to suspect him

Enough people think like you do that scum don't choose to go down that path.

[Klick]

@fireisredsir

Hi

From your own perspective, what do you tend to do differently as town than as scum? You seem like the kind of person who would have an opinion on this and I'm interested 7n hearing it
I remember being rather surprised that you were scum in Datisi's Cafe and so I'd like a reference on how to read you.

hi

i think as scum i tend to care more about posting towny town thoughts that people will townread and having neat little progressions on people and setting up long term plans for how to win the game based on who i can take with me to endgame and who i can eliminate

i also really just personally enjoy playing scum against people that i know and trying to understand how they read me and how they read people so that i can take advantage of that and get them to townread me. getting that townread is the most satisfying feeling in mafia for me and i think im usually p good at it

as town i probably have less direction in general and i think lately at least one difference is ive more strongly argued for keeping alive the people that i townread in the consensus poe. but when i roll scum next ill probably add some of that into my play tbh so idk if that really is a useful tell

i think im also more self-conscious generally about where my vote is and about changing my mind? town i think i can sometimes wander off in new directions but as scum im more worried about optics

wbu

I will answer back but not right now, too tired to give this proper thought
In short I think my town and scum play is night and day and I've played... rather badly as scum lately but I'm hoping to roll scum sometime soon to try and change that

[Klick]

Will answer tomorrow Cat <3

[Klick]

hypocritical of me to ask but I would appreciate not hammering TGP yet

haven't had time or energy for this game atm

Same
I've fallen behind on work for my apprenticeship and did that instead of this last night
I'm skimming up to present time atm

[Klick]

I also think Toto's ISO is really scummy, that was my other big one

Generally agreed

Do you have a read on me yet?

[Klick]

Shirou seems town. I don't even want to look too closely, I don't need to. He was just like this in NY Dance Party and

seems like he's playing to die a bit

This is a VERY good summary of what I've been trying to put into words about Shirou, thanks for that

[Klick]

VOTE: TGP

Aside from the hammer, I also think TGP is scummy for pushing Shirou for policy reasons but trying to not make it seem like a policy push (1076 says shirou's metapush is scummy but he also needs to be fearlimmed)

Then his transition to a Shirou townread in 1328 feels too sudden and unnatural. If you look at TGP's ISO, he has alternated between scumreading Shirou and being uncertain about him ever since page 22 (614 - votes Shirou). The quoted Shirou post that gives him a change of heart doesn't even feel that AI to me -

Spoiler:

I haven't that much experience on Lucian/Una so I feel scummy vibes but not "never wrong"/"almost never wrong" confidence

If you do feel that I can vote Una

i'm insanely skeptical that you can even hit that level of confidence on d1 reliably ever

...but god, you're just town aren't you Shirou

UNVOTE:

i maintain that i should vote you if i don't reasonably strongly townread you but right now even trying to discount hard for the fact that activity makes you seem more towny you seem actually trying to solve the game

Also 865 feels like it was edited after the fact to add a respond to Aristeia's 653 (the quoted posts are out of order)

Note to self to give a proper look at TGP's progression on Shirou when I've got the time. Promise I'm not ignoring you Cat.

[Klick]

UNVOTE:
furtive's posting is good so far and I want more

giuseppina
Shirou
Save The Dragons
Cat Scratch Fever

NorwegianboyEE

TheGoldenParadox
furtiveglance
Gimli

Toto
fireisredsir

is approximately where I'm at right now

[Klick]

Hi

[Klick]

Hello I'm here writing things please don't hammer.

[Klick]

Diving deeper into TGP's progression on Shirou:

The main takeaway I get from TGP's takes on Shirou is that he's annoyed by him and the thread's perception of him. This is consistent throughout TGP's posting on Shirou. From that perspective, I think TGP's dissonance on his Shirou read makes sense if he's town.

i guess my final take here is VOTE: Shirou. The general thought process here is that

when you tunnel someone day 1 in this setup you are not much more likely than 3/13 to be right,

and suggesting "lim me afterwards if I'm wrong" in my limited experience never actually happens (like, you are at very low risk to be powerlimmed the day after). Tunneling someone off secret meta is a very great way for scum to get a lim on a townie and then later get townread for it, putting nothing on the line for it.

*

clears throat

*

Norwe

is, dare I say,

LOCKTOWN

At the moment I believe at least 2/3 of [Cakez, Totos, Pina] are town, if we're lucky maybe all of them

Probably at least one scum in [Lucian/Una], maybe two if we're lucky

Ari may or not be scum I feel she can flip either way and it wouldn't surprise me. I don't feel she did anything significantly more likely to come from scum!her but I don't see any reason to town read any of her posts so far and she posted relatively a lot already (which is kinda bad but idk maybe I suck at identifying town!her).

Also, I got us out of apathy on solving. That's my D1 contribution thank you very much for reading my blogpost and I expect many intense, fervent, scorching hot town reads on me for this

UNVOTE:

UNVOTE:
Okay I guess I'm the only one that reads this and goes "what the fuck"?
Like, I wish the meta was in a place where hyperconfidence went consistently unrewarded + when gambits like this didn't work because everyone is like "yeah we're two days into d1 stop randomly tunneling people," but it seems to me like people do (or at least did when I was playing) this often enough unironically that it provided cover for Shirou to do it.

It seems like TGP originally voted for Shirou because he found it more likely that Shirou was scum finding an excuse to push for Norway than that Shirou's read was a genuine confident scumread. I relate with the 3/13 statistical solving comment, and a similar line of thinking is the reason I largely prefer to townhunt instead of scumhunt. It's also worth noting that TGP was *correct* to be suspicious of Shirou's Norway scumread, because the scumread was in fact fake. TGP is still annoyed with Shirou after finding out the scumread was a gambit, but he loses his scumread on Shirou because Shirou admitted that the thing that was bothering TGP was just a gambit.

His later push on Shirou seems entirely spite-driven.

here is the case for shirou:
if shirou is town, he is going to get NKed by scum in the next couple of days, because they are too powerful for that to not be true, and the WIFOM isn't worth it, but we do get the benefit of a strong townie for at least a couple days, and for the NK to be Shirou as opposed to the second most powerful townie or whatever.
if shirou is scum, he has enough control over the gamestate to consistently get mislims and survive until elo by default, and shirou being scum tilts the scales a

lot

in favor of scum wins.
shirou is not much over rand to be town than to be scum. i'm uncertain how to orient towards reading him. currently scumleaning based on his push on me being a relatively cheap way to get a mislim (oh my god, guess what, TGP's statements are INCONSISTENT with his statements in October 2020, how SCANDALOUS, obviously he must be LYING).

important point here is that if you're not strongly TRing shirou than this case remains strong.

if you agree with these things then Shirou should be the elim and by no circumstances should he survive to Elo.

This in particular is blatantly not actually a *read* on Shirou, but rather an argument for eliminating Shirou outside of reads. Rereading this I have strong doubts that scum decides this is what they should post, especially when there was no real pressure on Shirou at the time AND there was some pressure on TGP. I dont think scum chooses this argument, but I think it's clear that TGP is annoyed and I think that annoyance is most clearly explained by TGP not knowing what to do about reading Shirou in general.

I haven't that much experience on Lucian/Una so I feel scummy vibes but not "never wrong"/"almost never wrong" confidence

If you do feel that I can vote Una

i'm insanely skeptical that you can even hit that level of confidence on d1 reliably ever

...but god, you're just town aren't you Shirou

UNVOTE:

i maintain that i should vote you if i don't reasonably strongly townread you but right now even trying to discount hard for the fact that activity makes you seem more towny you seem actually trying to solve the game

TGP comes back to the thread about 6 hours later and decides that Shirou is probably just town. This doesn't feel unnatural to me, it feels like TGP calmed down and had a think about actually solving for Shirou's alignment.

Overall I can see where TGP is coming from and get town vibes off of TGP's Shirou read.

[Klick]

VOTE: TGP

Aside from the hammer, I also think TGP is scummy for pushing Shirou for policy reasons but trying to not make it seem like a policy push (1076 says shirou's metapush is scummy but he also needs to be fearlimmed)

Then his transition to a Shirou townread in 1328 feels too sudden and unnatural. If you look at TGP's ISO, he has alternated between scumreading Shirou and being uncertain about him ever since page 22 (614 - votes Shirou). The quoted Shirou post that gives him a change of heart doesn't even feel that AI to me -

Spoiler:

I haven't that much experience on Lucian/Una so I feel scummy vibes but not "never wrong"/"almost never wrong" confidence

If you do feel that I can vote Una

i'm insanely skeptical that you can even hit that level of confidence on d1 reliably ever

...but god, you're just town aren't you Shirou

UNVOTE:

i maintain that i should vote you if i don't reasonably strongly townread you but right now even trying to discount hard for the fact that activity makes you seem more towny you seem actually trying to solve the game

Also 865 feels like it was edited after the fact to add a respond to Aristeia's 653 (the quoted posts are out of order)

Note to self to give a proper look at TGP's progression on Shirou when I've got the time. Promise I'm not ignoring you Cat.

If there's anything else you wanted to talk about here Cat let me know
I'm not particularly compelled by the editing argument, I only really respond to things in the order they happened in the thread most of the time because people like that more, it doesn't feel AI to me

[Klick]

but also maybe i should be better at reading what you have posted so far if you’re town given but i do not have that feeling,

so!

Hi giuseppina
Can I have more detailed thoughts from you about NorwegianboyEE?
My read on him is largely a sheep of Shirou's confident townread but I'm interested in hearing a dissenting perspective if you have one

[Klick]

shirou and thegoldenparadox wagons still feel better to me than fireisredsir

neither furtiveglance nor thegoldenparadox feel very towny to me and aristeia did at times as did fireisredsir’s beginning of day (which i know have to take into consideration that fireisredsir was reading before having an alignment and such but still)

I'm also curious about why you thought Ari felt towny

[Klick]

How are you saying 1) we should sheep klick and 2) we should kill tgp when klick is the only person in this game apparently townreading TGP? Why are you talking about sheeping klick anyway? So you know what sheeping means?

I said that because they have you/CSF as scumreads which I do agree with (sorry CSF)

I didn't actually see that they crossed off TGP

??? I don't scumread CSF

[Klick]

I think furtive is unlikely to be scum with how he's been so far

I think Toto's posting has been quite a bit better today as well

[Klick]

shirou and thegoldenparadox wagons still feel better to me than fireisredsir

neither furtiveglance nor thegoldenparadox feel very towny to me and aristeia did at times as did fireisredsir’s beginning of day (which i know have to take into consideration that fireisredsir was reading before having an alignment and such but still)

I'm also curious about why you thought Ari felt towny

like i thought there was a chance she was trying to appeal to me to move the wagons or something at one point as i said at the time but i think the way she was entertaining my thoughts with regards to possible shirou/norwegianboyee worlds shortly after shirou reversed course was in line with what i would expect from town!aristeia and her emotions felt real at the end of day to me even if the self-vote was ??? (as all self-votes generally are)

I can't speak to the personal experience
I believe that Ari's emotions were (at least mostly) real, but I also think they were NAI. I can see town and scum reasons for her getting emotional in the way that she did

[Klick]

TGP comes back to the thread about 6 hours later and

decides that Shirou is probably just town

. This doesn't feel unnatural to me, it feels like TGP calmed down and had a think about actually solving for Shirou's alignment.

But how did he decide that Shirou is probably just town?

It's like this - town players who've been suspicious of someone the whole game aren't just going to suddenly go like "oh lol you're town", there needs to be significant impetus. And I don't see one

Basically - what's his justification for a sudden read change? Did Shirou do anything especially towny in that time? I find it unlikely that he just had a flash of clarity or something

the thing that made me flip to actually townreading shirou was this... feeling of, like, earnestness, this "i actually want to solve the game and will do it in real time and fuck you all while i'm doing it". i don't like the playstyle, but there is a sense in which shirou's posts felt like a rollercoaster where i felt like "yeah, mood, you are wearing your heart on your sleeve and i understand the rollercoaster because i feel that too." whereas scum couldn't do that because they know everyone's alignment and you just can't fabricate that earily

I can read a post or set of posts and have thoughts/feelings about it, go away, come back to it later in a different state of mind and see it entirely differently.

I think the thing that changed was that TGP started trying to actually solve Shirou
Prior to their townread on Shirou their actual solving there felt very... I guess 'level zero' is a good term for it
And then when they actually put some thought into the read they decided that Shirou just made sense as town

[Klick]

I think the thing that changed was that TGP started trying to actually solve Shirou
Prior to their townread on Shirou their actual solving there felt very... I guess 'level zero' is a good term for it
And then when they actually put some thought into the read they decided that Shirou just made sense as town

idk that seems like a generous interpretation. what makes you so willing to fill in the blanks here?

it feels like you are starting from a place of tgp is town and working backwards

TGP's read on Shirou feels genuine to me. I can relate with how it formed
I've found a number of game situations recently where I can relate with someone's annoyance in a way that makes them seem town to me. I'm not sure if that says something bad about me.

[Klick]

The same happened with Menalque in Not Quite Normal Multiball 2, he felt annoyed with the game in general in a way that made him seem really towny to me
Similarly, not a single other person thought Menalque was town all game.

[Klick]

giuseppina
Shirou
Save The Dragons
Cat Scratch Fever

furtiveglance
TheGoldenParadox
Toto
NorwegianboyEE

Gimli

fireisredsir

I'm wrong somewhere in my townreads but I think there's rather good odds of hitting scum in {fireisredsir, Gimli}

VOTE: fireisredsir

[Klick]

what about TGP prevents you from putting him in your higher tier? the way you've been talking about him sounds like he's a stronger townread

Is TGP's trajectory on Shirou something you're explicitly townreading or something you're not-scumreading? (I'm curious why you have TGP in italics instead of null!)

I find these opposite interpretations amusing!

So first of all, I'm going to define my categories:

I'm confident enough that this is town to take them out of consideration

Probably town, but I could see a world where I've gone wrong on the read

Dunno

Person of interest - decent chance of being scum

There's a theoretical fifth category of 'I'm confident that this is scum,' but that doesn't happen often. I'll probably go with

bold and red

if that happens.

I think TGP's progression on Shirou looks genuine and is entirely sensible as a town response to Shirou's play. I don't think it's impossible for his position to be faked, but it makes a lot more sense if he's town.

There's not much else that TGP has done to sway my read on him one way or the other.

[Klick]

@TGP:

Can you go into more detail what your Shirou votes/suspicion on D1 were about? Did you think Shirou was >rand scum? If so, why? If not, why were you voting Shirou?

I realise some of this might make you repeat stuff you've already said, but there's some confusion about what your Shirou vote was actually about and it would be very useful if you could clarify.

[Klick]

Klick you could be right, but there's more to TGP than the shirou progression. I disagree with CSF in this particular stance, but there's a bigger picture where TGP has been lacklustre and struggling to post anything sensible this gameday. Can't say much about D1 as I wasn't here and just read his ISO.

@klick: can you read 1727 and tell me what you think of those TGP reads? Does that read like town to you?

I'm out with the kids for now but I'll respond to this later

My tldr response to the first bit is that nothing else has really stood out to me as alignment indicative either way but I also haven't looked that hard

[Klick]

@TGP:

Can you go into more detail what your Shirou votes/suspicion on D1 were about? Did you think Shirou was >rand scum? If so, why? If not, why were you voting Shirou?

I realise some of this might make you repeat stuff you've already said, but there's some confusion about what your Shirou vote was actually about and it would be very useful if you could clarify.

@TGP

Can I have a response to this please

[Klick]

like, i don't think i made it abundantly clear enough, but

if fire flips town my first post tomorrow will be a vote on myself.

(i'm confident enough, and not a causal decision theorist, and so you can take this as a Serious Promise).

This feels really bad as a response to pressure

I want to respond to Gimli's last post to me, give TGP a proper look-over and then I'm fine with a hammer

[Klick]

@Toto

Could you please hold off until I've caught up? I should have time in a couple of hours

[Klick]

I'm sorry, something has come up, I won't be around very much today.

Feel free to hammer if anyone wants to.

[Klick]

VOTE: TheGoldenParadox
This is happening anyway

[Klick]

VOTE: TGP

[Klick]

VOTE: petapan

[Klick]

2) Why did Klick felt the need to hammer?

You were hammering anyway and I was in a bad mood for mostly unrelated reasons and wanted the game to not exist

I haven't had time to reread considering TGP flip. I agree generally that the near-universal negative feelings about TGP suggest scum specifically positioned around TGP flipping yesterday. I just haven't felt motivated to look into it yet.

STD kill is confusing.

[Klick]

Spoiler: off-topic

A close family friend died unexpectedly Saturday night. That has generally killed my motivation for all but the bare minimum in the past few days. I'll keep up to date, but the next few days might not be up for much.

[Klick]

Is Klick an anime character?

Yes!

[Klick]

save the dragons thought klick was likely mafia if thegoldenparadox was

When did this happen?
I had the impression that STD generally townread me

[Klick]

I completely missed that lol

[Klick]

Not particularly. I feel like fire and Gimli are vaguely good shouts for scum
I feel like associatives with TGP are going to help me a lot more with identifying likely scum than anything else that's happened thus far

[Klick]

I find associatives to be the easiest way for me to decide who scum is generally
I fail to see a reason that scum being comfortable about flipping TGP and expecting it to happen changes this

[Klick]

Just because scum planned associatives around TGP doesn't mean it's impossible to discern whether how certain players interacted with TGP came from town or a scumbuddy

What an odd take

[Klick]

Oh god the mobile skin I can't handle this CHANGE

[Klick]

My tinfoil is that furtive/Shirou both bussed and are now bussing each other not intending for either of them to be followed

I don't think this is actually particularly likely but it definitely crossed my mind

[Klick]

I would like today to last, like, most of its time please

[Klick]

My tinfoil is that furtive/Shirou both bussed and are now bussing each other not intending for either of them to be followed

I don't think this is actually particularly likely but it definitely crossed my mind

My dude

I have seen you play very well

What is this

What is it

What

A tinfoil that isn't particularly likely, as it was presented

I feel like thoughts like that are worth presenting even when they're a bit out-there
And there's a difference between 'lol furtive/Shirou my super next-level theory' and 'YOU KNOW WHAT GUYS IT'S FURTIVE AND SHIROU TRUST ME'

[Klick]

My tinfoil is that furtive/Shirou both bussed and are now bussing each other not intending for either of them to be followed

I don't think this is actually particularly likely but it definitely crossed my mind

My dude

I have seen you play very well

Wait a second is this even true
I thought you thought I played terribly in Cosmos
When did I play well

[Klick]

You guys can't keep me, or Klick, or whatever forever from the lim pool because if at least one of you are scum, which I do believe is the answer, you need 3 mislims here and there just isn't quite enough otherwise

so you've been trying to shade me and Klick and others while trying to make yourself look better even if it means you need to have nonsense progressions or arguments that is hard to believe you actually believe on it

I had clearly quoted TGP calling me good town in my post but you decided to pick one where it wasn't quite like that to try to counter the argument

p-edit: then vote him.

I agree with this regarding fire's posts today
Not necessarily from the perspective of it being exactly fire/furtive
But fire's posting today from what I've read so far feels like he wants to have significant excuse to push on any of myself/furtive/Shirou

It's not clear to me what fire actually *believes* from his posting. He made a post earlier that seemed to express a level of confidence in me being scum that made me confused that he wasn't just voting me. His posts feel like arguments to me rather than what he actually believes.

[Klick]

im worried about the possible world where furtive is town

makes this a loss when it really shouldn't be

'possible world'

No matter the result of this game, I will have things to say in post. Seriously the scumreads on me are next level BS and I can't wait for postgame or dead thread to console me

furtive, serious question
Why should I be townreading your slot *outside* of your push on TGP yesterday?
I don't think a bus from you on TGP yesterday is unrealistic

I thought your general demeanor and confidence was towny yesterday, but considered as a whole, your tone has been really consistent in a worrying way. Your confidence feels like a facade because it's no different from how you were yesterday.
I think it's entirely possible that it's a facade of confidence coming from town. But it definitely doesn't feel genuine.

So talk to me. What kind of confidence do you *actually* have on your current reads?
What are you doing differently here as town that you wouldn't do as scum?

[Klick]

I should have loads of time tonight to read back how I want

[Klick]

This is my favourite part of Mafia

Trying to work out who it is, it's just the essence of the game

Quite stressful tho

i agree then yea

i think the most exciting part (of playing town, since i usually enjoy scum more) is when i think i've found a solve or when i realize i was wrongly townbinning a scum who's been playing a really good game

i have trouble expressing those solves confidently though because i feel a lot of intense embarrassment and shame when i get things wrong

so i guess the overall more fun experience is the process of sorting it out

Your general perspective continues to be incredibly relatable

[Klick]

I agree with this regarding fire's posts today
Not necessarily from the perspective of it being exactly fire/furtive
But fire's posting today from what I've read so far feels like he wants to have significant excuse to push on any of myself/furtive/Shirou

It's not clear to me what fire actually *believes* from his posting. He made a post earlier that seemed to express a level of confidence in me being scum that made me confused that he wasn't just voting me. His posts feel like arguments to me rather than what he actually believes.

i feel like ive been p transparent, what isn't clear?

you say this as if i should have a confident solve that i believe in. you are correct that i don't. im trying to sort all of you. my post earlier about you was more about sorting shirou and how it didn't make sense to me that he wasn't considering you as a possibility

my strongest opinions are that giuseppina and csf are town. i also believe toto is likely town, and i think norwee is likely town despite my hesitations there. for everyone else, there's been times where ive thought theyre scum and there's been times where ive thought they're town

i think it's weird to treat that like it's an indictment. town doesn't have all the answers. im still trying to figure things out. im not voting anyone rn bc i don't think i have things figured out

Responding to this will take more time at once than I actually have so I'll do it later

[Klick]

Several town are clowning right now which is frustrating. Can we just elect CSF as the golden obvtown Captain and give her 2 day vig shots?

Hot take but I think this is the correct way to play situations that are ELo/close to ELo and it's not even close

[Klick]

CSF talk about your read on me

[Klick]

I'm feeling philosophical tonight. Tonight would be a fun time to have a chat with me.

Starting in about an hour I'm going to be invested in this game for the rest of the night

[Klick]

my strongest opinions are that giuseppina and csf are town.

I agree with these at about the same level of confidence fwiw; CSF is basically never scum here and I find giuseppina's early content very unlikely to come from scum

i also believe toto is likely town,

Toto is question marks for me at this moment; why

and i think norwee is likely town despite my hesitations there.

Thus far I've largely sheeped Shirou's townread of Norwee but I think I want to consider not doing that tonight and developing an independent read there

for everyone else, there's been times where ive thought theyre scum and there's been times where ive thought they're town

I'd like to hear more in-depth thoughts from you about Shirou. Why are both town and scum still options you're considering for his play in this game?

i think it's weird to treat that like it's an indictment. town doesn't have all the answers. im still trying to figure things out. im not voting anyone rn bc i don't think i have things figured out

Something I've thought about a lot recently is the fact that even though there are several different theories about who scum might be throughout discussion in a Mafia game, at the end of the day there's one scumteam. Only one solution fits, and that solution with certainty is the only one that fully explains what's going on in the game. (CSF might recognise that the whole MMR situation in Cosmos has inspired a lot of my thoughts in this area - though luckily most situations are much less complex than that!)

I'm frustrated by 'maybe this is scummy' as an approach essentially. I feel like it's easily abusable and you fit the profile of someone I'd expect to try and use that as a scum tactic.

I normally don't have much confidence in direct dialogue about reads as an effective tool for reading someone, but I feel like it could work with you

[Klick]

My post earlier about the site change was a meme, but seriously this format change has completely screwed with my ability to process things
I have used MS how it was two days ago for over ten years, I've gotten so used to it and I feel lost

[Klick]

CSF talk about your read on me

Your town case on TGP didn't make that much sense to me. The things you were describing as towny in 2053 seemed more scum indicative (i was reading that same progression as scummy). I'd understand it more if you had other reasons for townreading TGP and were therefore already predisposed to townreading him for other reasons, but i didn't think there was a lot more behind your TR. I think you were quite generous in your tgp read, maybe too generous

That and Std death worries me

Most of my reads tend to be based on singular points that I find to make someone rather likely town or scum

The main reason I expressed the TGP read strongly was because I believed he had a genuine progression on Shirou, and I felt as though without action there was a decent chance he'd get wagoned to a hammer like Una was
I wanted to get my thoughts out before that happened

I can tell you though that I don't think I would actively choose to remove STD from this game

[Klick]

Temp 38.8, lots of shivering. :/

[Klick]

furtive i'm about to go to sleep

please show me one town game where you were acting like this, saying people are throwing, etc

one town game furtive. one.

I can confirm that furtive kept saying town was throwing when he wasn't getting his way in Cosmos Mafia if that helps

[Klick]

PTs:

mod - viewtopic.php?f=90&t=90288
scum - viewtopic.php?f=90&t=90289
dead - viewtopic.php?t=90290

24 hours for any redactions from the scumteam

No redactions

Thanks for playing all. I feel like this was better than my last five scum games but still not very good at all.
I feel alright about how I handled my TGP interactions at least. And I enjoyed messing about with the nightkills, I feel like we could have made Shirou/possibly even pina-slot happen through a combination of NKA and complacency

[Klick]

i guess i think everything klick is doing is townie

EXCEPT

if TGP is scum i think klick's defense of TGP would be pretty scummy

i wonder if i died because of this

No I legit forgot about this post lol

Most of the kills were intended to set up long-term for a Shirou and/or pina mislim because I thought at least one of those would be necessary for us to endgame

[Klick]

I was planning on coming home from work today and starting to push for Shirou lmao

[Klick]

yea furtive was mvp. also turned around a slot that was marked for death multiple times

imagine if we collectively hadn't talked things out and just let shirou powerlim through me and furtive at the start of day here like he was demanding. do we win in that world? probably not!

I think Shirou deserves a ton of credit for his D1 reads
He basically just had all three of us at the bottom
It's why I ultimately really didn't want to kill him N1. If he died with those reads as his legacy we were screwed. I needed to change his mind

[Klick]

Playing as scum is just ultimately waaaay less fun than playing as town at this point in my life

[Klick]

GG all, town played too good

<3 klick and tgp, we win next time

Thanks peta for modding

<3

[Klick]

Why can't we both just rand town every time

[Klick]

Overthinking has been the death of me in recent games and it's worse looking back when you had proper leads, just to dump them later on.

It's technically overthinking yes you're correct but I didn't consider it quite "overthinking" because there were back then, what I believed "solid reasons" to change my mind. It wasn't just me losing faith on it randomly, I cleared Klick because he came openly defending TGP when TGP was about go down, and it didn't work very much and made people suspecting him more, so I thought that probably didn't come from partners and in my 5 years here so far I'm not sure I had ever seen someone defend their partner so openly like that as they are near death. If it was for the WIFOM it clearly worked on me.

I will accept the compliment - that was essentially the idea Now I just need to take that sort of play and attach it to a more refined scum game overall lol.

It made...so much logical sense to me. But it seems to be a failure as a method to scum hunt to think there's this overarching logic about the scumteam play I suppose...

That is the main scumhunting lesson I've personally taken away from this game. We weren't particularly coordinated all things considered, we largely operated independently and planned in generalities. I'm not sure if that was a weakness on our part or just another way of playing. But it showed me that sometimes scum aren't going to have a totally unified approach to their game plan.

[Klick]

I can tell you though that I don't think I would actively choose to remove STD from this game

<3

BUT YOU DID IT ANYWAY

You're much more fun to play with when I'm not required to lie the whole time!!